Spoiler Discussion Thread

[SonofaBiscuit]

Are Diggle and Felicity actually going to have a conversation?  It's been so long.  Here's hoping that Felicity gets to smile next season instead of cry every episode, though.  

 

Somebody please gif the hell out of the Canary Cry next week.

[Password]

So much hate for this storyline. SO MUCH HATE.

My sentiments exactly.

[looptab]

DIGLICITY!!!

[Sunshine]

It also would give Felicity a reason to be in NP if they wanted to dismantle the evilness of the LoA during the 3.5 comics.

I am really hoping to be done with this by 3.23!

[apinknightmare]

I am really hoping to be done with this by 3.23!

 

The title of the last ep gives every indication that it will be.

[NumberCruncher]

While I'm thrilled to finally get more Diggle/Felicity interaction, so not excited that it's centered around a missing Oliver storyline (again). *Sigh*

[SonofaBiscuit]

At least Dig gets to be out in the field this time instead of driving the van.  Of course, he's going to end up with shattered eardrums, so maybe this isn't a good thing after all.  

[apinknightmare]

Felicity actually doesn't look like she's crying to me. She looks like she might be getting ready to smile there. 

[looptab]

I was wondering, after reading that e! article, while we all mourned the fern, there's an important piece missing: the Green Hood. Where is it, does Quentin plan on burning it? Will Oliver get it back? How?

[AyChihuahua]

He's not just missing, he's evil.  They actually think it's totally cool to turn the hero evil.  And they think the audience is stupid enough that they're PRing that he may just stay evil. 

 

Re shocking news/threats, etc., I'm guessing Ra's tells Nyssa Sara's alive, the wedding is Roy/Thea, and Ra's orders Oliver to kill Diggle and Felicity. 

[kismet]

I'm not sure if Nyssa & Laurel will have sexy times or not. I hope not because I am over the sister swapping. Frankly, I'm getting tired of all the partner swapping in the group. They need to stop having everyone join the group as a romantic interest.

 

Anyway, back on message, I have determined a logical reason for a bare backed Nyssa. She is probably going to tell the story of how she was branded & showing them her brand.

 

As for the brainwashing, Oliver never wanted to be part of the LoA so Ras is probably trying to make sure all of his hard work to get him to agree to join the LoA does not go to waste. Everyone else that has joined the LoA have likely been willing. So yes the training process probably aims to break them down so that they do not hold allegiance to their past lives. But Oliver is a special case, he doesn't want to be heir & his strong ties to his past are a liability. So he needs brainwashing because of his strength of mind. Ras wanted the Arrow, not so much OQ, but he hasn't realized how intertwined the psyches of Arrow/OQ are. He thinks that it will be easy to remove one from the other - but we know it will not.

[AyChihuahua]

I don't know that Sara was all that willing.  She wanted to go home.  And if he doesn't normally brainwash people, how does he even know how to do it?  And why does it work on Oliver?  I mean, he's apparently brainwashed enough to do something bad to Diggle, so it's pretty effective brainwashing.  Why not just do that to everyone?  He knows Maseo keeps helping Oliver, why not brainwash him if he's got a tried and true method?  And Sara, who kept running back to her family and hurting his daughter.

[kismet]

I am really hoping to be done with this by 3.23!

Oh I agree, I want this LoA thing to be done with by 323! But since I don't read the comics it wouldn't bother me all the much. I was just trying to find some support for the theory. I also think the writers are like a dog with a bone when it comes to LoA. They are just so eager to write it and live out their Ras/Batman-esque plot lines. So it would help them fulfill their fantasies while still keeping LoA storyline out of S4. At least it would be a meaty plot line for the comics. They did bring back Blood for 2.5 even though they were done with that storyline.

[statsgirl]

The whole brainwashing thing just seems stupid to me. Ra's himself didn't want to join but they threatened his family, as he did Oliver's and he doesn't seem brainwashed to me. Maseo joined because his life fell apart, ditto Sara who was saved by Nyssa.  They both felt they couldn't go back to their previous lives but Maseo doesn't seem brainwashed since he changed after his talk with Diggle, he just seems to have been drinking the kool-aid.

 

Re shocking news/threats, etc., I'm guessing Ra's tells Nyssa Sara's alive, the wedding is Roy/Thea, and Ra's orders Oliver to kill Diggle and Felicity. 

That's what I think too.  But if Ra's tells Oliver to kill Felicity, just having said how much they love each other, he better be dead by the end of the season is all I'm sayin'.

Edited April 24, 2015 by statsgirl

[tessaray]

Shakespeare & wedding switcheroo - it worked none to bad in Much Ado About Nothing, but there a reason that All's Well That Ends Well is rarely performed..

 

I've only seen it once but Measure for Measure also has a switcheroo.  Agreed that All's Well That Ends Well isn't very appealing to modern audiences.

[apinknightmare]

If there's brainwashing, hopefully Oliver's just pretending and for once he has a plan.

[statsgirl]

Measure For Measure -- I knew there was something I forgot!

[Angel12d]

 A DIGGLE AND FELICITY HUG IS ALL I'VE EVER WANTED OMG. Yes. Thank you. I forgot about the Diggle/Felicity scenes. At least there's something to look forward to!

[kismet]

I don't know that Sara was all that willing.  She wanted to go home.  And if he doesn't normally brainwash people, how does he even know how to do it?  And why does it work on Oliver?  I mean, he's apparently brainwashed enough to do something bad to Diggle, so it's pretty effective brainwashing.  Why not just do that to everyone?  He knows Maseo keeps helping Oliver, why not brainwash him if he's got a tried and true method?  And Sara, who kept running back to her family and hurting his daughter.

Brainwashing just makes a lot of practical sense when trying to condition people into a group mentality & loyalty. I'm sure it is part of the training process, I just think its going to be stronger in OQ's case.

 

Maybe Sara was brainwashed in the beginning. But it did seem like she wanted to survive so joining the LoA probably seemed like her only option after nearly drowning after being sucked out of the Amazo. Sara also told OQ that she looked into soul saw the darkness & chose to join the darkness (it was something along those lines). So she at least 2 times, she willing chose to be part of the LoA. I don't think Ras really cared about Nyssa's heart other than how it related to her ability to be the next Ras. So it wouldn't be worth his time to brainwash Sara again, esp if she continued to leave or disappoint him. She only ran back twice to her family & each time she returned to the LoA even after being released by Nyssa. So she has proven that she was drawn to the LoA despite her objections.

 

Maseo said that he willingly joined after whatever happened to Akio. As for why Ras does not brainwash Maseo now? I have a bad feeling that Ras has something far more sinister prepared for Maseo, likely at the hands of Oliver.

[AyChihuahua]

"ditto Sara who was saved by Nyssa"

 

We don't know what happened to Sara between the Amazo and Nyssa, but right at the end of the island, she wanted to go home.  So if she was picked up by Nyssa a few weeks later, starving, I see no reason she wouldn't still have wanted to go home.  She hadn't done anything she felt was unforgivable yet.  That came after the LOA.  So if they brainwash unwilling members, I don't know why they wouldn't brainwash her, which obviously they didn't. 

 

And at this point I doubt he's faking, since he does something nearly unforgivable to Diggle.  I guess it depends how bad it is.  Nothing makes sense, though, like why Ra's is apparently happy with him although he knows Oliver's failed to kill Nyssa?  I truly believe that they just think it's "cool" for him to go evil.  Amell is even saying on Twitter it's one of his favorite things.  They just don't care that it makes no story or character sense.  Which does not bode well for future seasons, after a season in which they've gone out of their way to ruin nearly every character (sans Roy, I always liked Roy but love him now).

 

Also, the fact that Oliver is not doing EVERYTHING in his power to murder the shit out of the guy who ran a sword through Thea is utterly horrifying to me.  I'd be thrilled for Guggie to prove me wrong, but they have not gone with any kind of intelligent, long con storyline on anything this season.  Malcolm really did do all that crap just to get Oliver to fight Ra's, knowing Oliver would lose.  THIS SEASON IS THE SEASON OF IDIOCY.

 

"Brainwashing just makes a lot of practical sense when trying to condition people into a group mentality & loyalty."

 

Sure, but they have shown zero evidence of that on the show.  Zero.  As statsgirl said, Ra's himself did not want to join and nothing in the show evidences him having been brainwashed.  There's been zero evidence of brainwashing; they are pulling it out of their asses bc they think it's cool to have Oliver go evil.  And hey, if the prophecy says the one who survives is the next Ra's, then it should just happen.  Brainwashing (plus all the other ridiculous crap Ra's has pulled) is cheating.  Since the prophecy is the only reason he was so amped to make Oliver Ra's, then he should let the prophecy happen.

Edited April 24, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[olicityfan25]

Digglicity!

[Morrigan2575]

Perhaps brainwashing is the wrong term, maybe indoctrination is the better description? Basically the LoA is like a cult, the members are indoctrinated to lose all sense of self and put they cult/cult leader ahead of all.

It wouldn't take much fanwanking to explain that Ra's went easy on Nyssa because she was his daughter and Nyssa protected Sara from the indoctrination so they both retained parts of themselves.

[AyChihuahua]

Indoctrination wouldn't get Oliver to do something terrible to Diggle. 

[apinknightmare]

Indoctrination wouldn't get Oliver to do something terrible to Diggle.

We don't know what happens between him and Diggle.

 

ETA: because I hit "submit" too soon. DR said that Diggle feels betrayed, so to me that seems like maybe whatever happens happens when Oliver is in his right mind, and isn't physical so much as strategic or emotional.

 

Or, Oliver could very well run him through or cut off an appendage, I guess.

Edited April 24, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Password]

If there's brainwashing, hopefully Oliver's just pretending and for once he has a plan.

This is what I want.

[kismet]

Brainwashing, Indoctrination, Magic Herbs, somehow we get EvilOliver for an episode. Will it be logical or make sense likely not... will it make sense based upon what we've heard about other LoA members likely not. The writers seem to be picking & choosing what they remember & what they make up on the fly. I honestly don't think they have a real good grasp on the myths, lores and policy/procedures of the LoA.

 

Frankly, I'm excited to be able to see SA do some EvilOliver acting. Like him dying, I know it will not last forever. Is it worth all the ridiculousness of this season? NO. Would I have chose these story arcs? Probably not. But its like when your at a bad party that you can't get out of... you might as well enjoy the few bits of good food they hand out. I do hope whatever he does as EvilOliver is able to be fixed overtime. I do hope he has some secret plan to take down the LoA, but I'm keeping my hopes low. Personally, I see TA as more likely to design a plan to get him out.

[statsgirl]

Diggle says "there's only one thing left of him and that's us" so Diggle must believe that Oliver is brain-washed deep.  And in the promo clip, Diggle is on his knees, hands behind his back, and Ra's is saying "You much eliminate this threat".  Or maybe that's an edit and Ra's is saying that about Nyssa.

 

I think brain-washing rather than indoctrination because Oliver seems to have forgotten everything he knew and felt beforehand.  Indoctrination gets you to support something but it doesn't wipe your memories.  That hood over his head seems more like brain-washing.

 

It doesn't look like Oliver has a plan to get himself out so I'm thinking it's Team Arrow, including Laurel, Nyssa and Tatsu, who get him out, Maybe Thea too.

I'm suddenly struck by all the estrogen in that group.  How is the young male demo going to react?

[apinknightmare]

Diggle says "there's only one thing left of him and that's us" so Diggle must believe that Oliver is brain-washed deep.  And in the promo clip, Diggle is on his knees, hands behind his back, and Ra's is saying "You much eliminate this threat".  Or maybe that's an edit and Ra's is saying that about Nyssa.

 

I think maybe he is saying it about Diggle, but maybe there's some kind of distraction (Nyssa, maybe? Laurel with her sonic screech?) that gets Diggle out of it before Oliver has to fight him? 

 

At every turn this season Oliver's been saying that he doesn't have a plan, so I was hoping this would be the one time when he actually did. Or maybe it will be the team that gets him out, because of that lesson Oliver learned last week to let other people help him, I don't know. 

 

I'm just not sure what to think about the brainwashing thing, because Oliver's going to be in town with other League members who will surely be watching him, so of course he would act cold toward Diggle and Felicity and whoever just to play it safe, so...IDK.

[Angel12d]

I wonder if they brainwash everyone or will they just do it with Oliver? Because Maseo, Malcolm, even Sara were all members of the LOA and they remembered their families and past lives. Is it just because Oliver's the Heir now?

[apinknightmare]

I wonder if they brainwash everyone or will they just do it with Oliver? Because Maseo, Malcolm, even Sara were all members of the LOA and they remembered their families and past lives. Is it just because Oliver's the Heir now?

 

The only reason why I figure Ra's would brainwash Oliver is because he's worried that Oliver's too distracted by the life he left behind, because even though he traded Thea's life for his own, he really didn't enter willingly (which begs the question WHY DOES RA'S WANT SOMEONE WHO ISN'T WILLING, but whatever). From Nyssa's story, Sara joined because she was hungry and didn't have anywhere else to go, Malcolm went willingly. Maseo might've too, after Akio died. I think that's probably why none of them were brainwashed. 

 

Normally I'd say that Ra's could keep Oliver in line by threatening the people he loves, but since MG said it's a position you hold until you die, I'm guessing Ra's isn't expecting to be around long enough to be able to keep such threats. Which, again, begs the question, WHY DO YOU WANT SOMEONE YOU HAVE TO BRAINWASH/THREATEN?

 

Okay, I'm done.

[jay741982]

Diggle says "there's only one thing left of him and that's us" so Diggle must believe that Oliver is brain-washed deep.  And in the promo clip, Diggle is on his knees, hands behind his back, and Ra's is saying "You much eliminate this threat".  Or maybe that's an edit and Ra's is saying that about Nyssa.

 

I think brain-washing rather than indoctrination because Oliver seems to have forgotten everything he knew and felt beforehand.  Indoctrination gets you to support something but it doesn't wipe your memories.  That hood over his head seems more like brain-washing.

 

It doesn't look like Oliver has a plan to get himself out so I'm thinking it's Team Arrow, including Laurel, Nyssa and Tatsu, who get him out, Maybe Thea too.

I'm suddenly struck by all the estrogen in that group.  How is the young male demo going to react?

Hopefully they would like Attractive women kicking ass

[tarotx]

Oliver has no respect for himself and believes everything good about himself comes from the mission or the people who support and/or love him. I think he could be a good candidate for brainwashing. I mean 3 weeks is fast but other than that I could believe it.

Hurting this friends isn't something I'd believe he would do. Yes to going after Nyssa though. But I think witnessing his friends fear and hurt would snap him back into caring about them.

Edited April 24, 2015 by tarotx

[Angel12d]

The only reason why I figure Ra's would brainwash Oliver is because he's worried that Oliver's too distracted by the life he left behind, because even though he traded Thea's life for his own, he really didn't enter willingly (which begs the question WHY DOES RA'S WANT SOMEONE WHO ISN'T WILLING, but whatever). From Nyssa's story, Sara joined because she was hungry and didn't have anywhere else to go, Malcolm went willingly. Maseo might've too, after Akio died. I think that's probably why none of them were brainwashed. 

 

Normally I'd say that Ra's could keep Oliver in line by threatening the people he loves, but since MG said it's a position you hold until you die, I'm guessing Ra's isn't expecting to be around long enough to be able to keep such threats. Which, again, begs the question, WHY DO YOU WANT SOMEONE YOU HAVE TO BRAINWASH/THREATEN?

 

Okay, I'm done.

 

 

Yeah, it doesn't make any sense tbh. I understand Ra's believes in the prophecy and that's why he wants Oliver as his heir, but when he thinks he needs brainwashing in order to stay - why would he want that?! Crazy. 

 

I guess I'd believe in the brainwashing if Ra's had just kidnapped Oliver a couple of weeks ago instead. Now it just feels like a contrived reason to cause conflict and why am I even surprised? It's s3 in a nutshell.

[apinknightmare]

Ugh, that finale summary.

 

Lord, beer me strength. That makes it seem like he's not brainwashed, if he's "deciding," not that wordplay means anything with these people, since they don't know the difference between site and sight. 

[wonderwall]

Yeah the episode description is not exciting /at all/. 

 

I need more alcohol. 

[calliope1975]

Lord, beer me strength. That makes it seem like he's not brainwashed, if he's "deciding," not that wordplay means anything with these people, since they don't know the difference between site and sight. 

 

Yep. Way to kill whatever sliver of hope and enthusiasm I had that this crisis of identity would be wrapped up quickly.

 

Am I correct that the shots of Arrow helping Flash are from The Flash's finale? Which will air after Arrows? I suppose that would account for why Oliver skips on over to Central City to be a good guy again. Or will it be one of those convoluted things where we have to figure out where the hell it happens in the timeline like we had to do with last week's Flash crossover?

 

Just 3 more episodes. I can make it through this. I can. And when I meet Amell in Austin this summer, I will politely say how much I liked S1 & S2. 

[apinknightmare]

Yep. Way to kill whatever sliver of hope and enthusiasm I had that this crisis of identity would be wrapped up quickly.

 

Am I correct that the shots of Arrow helping Flash are from The Flash's finale? Which will air after Arrows? 

 

No, it's from the episode before the finale, which airs the day before the Arrow finale (someone correct me if I'm wrong about this please). So that means that Oliver's an AU Oliver, Ra's is super invested in killing the Reverse Flash, or the timeline is f-ed again.

Edited April 24, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Morrigan2575]

No, it's from the episode before the finale, which airs the day before the Arrow finale (someone correct me if I'm wrong about this please). So that means that Oliver's an AU Oliver, Ra's is super invested in killing the Reverse Flash, or the timeline is f-ed again.

nope, you got it right.

Ugh, that finale summary.

Lord, beer me strength. That makes it seem like he's not brainwashed, if he's "deciding," not that wordplay means anything with these people, since they don't know the difference between site and sight.

Not necessarily, he could be brainwashed but breaks it in 322 but still contemplates honoring his deal to keep Ra's away from his family.

of course there's also the option that he is fully aware and chooses to hurt Diggle for whatever reason

Edited April 24, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[apinknightmare]

Not necessarily, he could be brainwashed but breaks it in 322 but still contemplates honoring his deal to keep Ra's away from his family.

of course there's also the option that he is fully aware and chooses to hurt Diggle for whatever reason

 

Yep, that too.

[Angel12d]

I wonder what Ra's' final plan is? It could be that Oliver does get brainwashed but whatever happens in 322 could shake him from that maybe? And so then Oliver has to make a decision. 

 

EDIT: Or what Morrigan2575 said. Sorry. I didn't read the thread before I posted!

Edited April 24, 2015 by Angel12d

[jay741982]

New prediction for the finale: they pull a scene similar to a scene in Buffy at the end of the sixth season where Xander stopped Willow from bringing upon the end of the world. Felicity (like Xander) stops Oliver(like Willow) from raining Hell on Starling City. Telling him she loves him and bringing back the Oliver we all know and love. Bonus if Felicity AND Thea get him back

[Morrigan2575]

New prediction for the finale: they pull a scene similar to a scene in Buffy at the end of the sixth season where Xander stopped Willow from bringing upon the end of the world. Felicity (like Xander) stops Oliver(like Willow) from raining Hell on Starling City. Telling him she loves him and bringing back the Oliver we all know and love. Bonus if Felicity AND Thea get him back

the massively mocked Yellow Crayon speech? Why not, it's as stupid as most other things this season

[jay741982]

the massively mocked Yellow Crayon speech? Why not, it's as stupid as most other things this season

No the Speech can be bypassed lol that literally just popped in my head as I read your response

[AyChihuahua]

The fucking yellow crayon speech.  So Oliver is actually seriously contemplating hanging with the group of dudes who (1) stabbed the shit out of his sister; (2) tried to murder Felicity; (3) were the cause of everything with Roy; and (4) ruined his life.  This show, man, this fucking show.

 

 

 

The only reason why I figure Ra's would brainwash Oliver is because he's worried that Oliver's too distracted by the life he left behind, because even though he traded Thea's life for his own, he really didn't enter willingly (which begs the question WHY DOES RA'S WANT SOMEONE WHO ISN'T WILLING, but whatever). From Nyssa's story, Sara joined because she was hungry and didn't have anywhere else to go, Malcolm went willingly. Maseo might've too, after Akio died. I think that's probably why none of them were brainwashed.

Normally I'd say that Ra's could keep Oliver in line by threatening the people he loves, but since MG said it's a position you hold until you die, I'm guessing Ra's isn't expecting to be around long enough to be able to keep such threats. Which, again, begs the question, WHY DO YOU WANT SOMEONE YOU HAVE TO BRAINWASH/THREATEN?

And thus I want to scream.  

 

 

Frankly, I'm excited to be able to see SA do some EvilOliver acting. 

I've been genuinely trying to figure out why intelligent people (like the vast majority of posters here) are continuing to watch this season, and this helps.  I don't really give a crap about SA.  I mean, he's a hot guy and a good actor, but I don't know him.  I know Oliver.  I've spent, with flashbacks, nearly six years getting to know and care about Oliver.  So seeing this man who has been through so much, and who has come out of all that hell trying to do good, get so completely shit on, completely horrifies me.  

 

There is a line in a fanfic that I cannot recommend highly enough: 

 

"But I also haven’t spent five years in hell and somehow managed to claw my way out with a soul. I haven’t spent years doggedly proving my trustworthiness to people who’d given up on me. I haven’t died saving the city (literally, Mom says his heart stopped for fifty-three seconds) or died saving someone I love (that time it was seventeen seconds). I haven’t built a family out of torn-up scraps."

 

That is from the best fanfic I've ever read, describing Oliver's adult son's (and the new Arrow's) thoughts about his father.  That is the Oliver I love, and seeing him go evil after trying so hard to be good, after everything he's gone through, is just heartbreaking.  (http://archiveofourown.org/series/163391)

Edited April 25, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[statsgirl]

Story by Berlanti & AK. teleplay by MG and Jake Coburn. So you know it's going to be really really canon.

[HighwayFlower]

Wasn't there a spoiler about Laurel going pretty far for Oliver? This wedding spoiler is making me twitchy.

[apinknightmare]

Wasn't there a spoiler about Laurel going pretty far for Oliver? This wedding spoiler is making me twitchy.

 

That was in 3x19 - when she stood up to her father. 

[MostlyC]

....And you have hit 500 pages.  

 

It only seems a little more than a year ago when this baby thread was born.  It's growing so fast. Is it dusty in here?  sniffle

 

 

Congratulations People!  Here's to the next 500 pages!

[kismet]

The fucking yellow crayon speech. So Oliver is actually seriously contemplating hanging with the group of dudes who (1) stabbed the shit out of his sister; (2) tried to murder Felicity; (3) were the cause of everything with Roy; and (4) ruined his life. This show, man, this fucking show.

And thus I want to scream.

I've been genuinely trying to figure out why intelligent people (like the vast majority of posters here) are continuing to watch this season, and this helps. I don't really give a crap about SA. I mean, he's a hot guy and a good actor, but I don't know him. I know Oliver. I've spent, with flashbacks, nearly six years getting to know and care about Oliver. So seeing this man who has been through so much, and who has come out of all that hell trying to do good, get so completely shit on, completely horrifies me.

That's the Oliver I want back too. Hopefully he'll be back in s4 & never leave. This season has tested my patience. But an episode of eviloliver is a nice change of pace. Of course then they release the finale description & it looks like same old bs & dumb plotting. So yes I don't mind the thought of evil oliver, but it needs to end by the finale. There really shouldn't be a choice for Oliver after 323, heck even after 22. He should not be heir or head of any loa. I hope its just a bland description to keep the good stuff from being spoiled.

Edited - because posting from my cell is hard while at work, ie is down & sent it too soon. Also didn't realize it actually went through.... got a little busy

Edited April 25, 2015 by kismet

[Angel12d]

What if they give Oliver the same drug that Malcolm gave Thea? Or is that the kind of brainwashing everyone already thought of and I'm just slow? Lol.

 

 

I've been genuinely trying to figure out why intelligent people (like the vast majority of posters here) are continuing to watch this season, and this helps.  

 

Morbid curiosity? I mean, I've disliked this season a lot, for the most part, but I still want to see what happens and how things will end. That said, I don't have any excitement for it tbh. I kind of want to get this season out of the way so we can (hopefully) get back to Oliver being the Arrow, Diggle/H.I.V.E. and meeting Felicity's father and all the story that involves. I will definitely be going into s4 with a different mindset than I did s3 though. I've learned my lesson.

Edited April 25, 2015 by Angel12d