Spoiler Discussion Thread

[SmallScreenDiva]

I like your optimism, Genki ;)

[MarDelSol]

If Thea murdered Sara, then I'm probably done with this show. It would be so monumentally stupid and nonsensical. And I could totally see the writers doing it. It's exactly the kind of moronic twist done purely for shock value I expect at this point.

 

And I'd feel pretty bad for Willa Holland. Like, here's her character's trajectory:

 

Clearly a bunch of nods early on to her becoming Ollie's sidekick with Thea/Mia/Dearden/Speedy and archery trophies. I'm sure the EPs even told her as much when they hired her.

She's then used as a rich brat who represents the worst teen melodrama CW-ness of the show.

Then instead of bringing her into the fold and making her Ollie's sidekick, her character is pretty much only used to introduce a male character, Roy, and give reasons for Roy to get closer to Oliver and eventually be his sidekick.

She's mainly used as Roy's Girlfriend, or a damsel for either Roy or Oliver to save.

She becomes the reason the Queen family fortune is lost.

She nonsensically goes off with Merlyn, a mass murderer who she loathes (at least this part had some storytelling promise to get her trained and put her in the A storylines despite making little sense).

In the very next episode she murders a fan favorite character.

Edited November 23, 2014 by MarDelSol

[Morrigan2575]

If the spoiler is true, it would be only for Shock Value and "wouldn't it be kewl if?!" Line of storytelling.

[NumberCruncher]

I'm pretty sure that Stephen said in the Arrow Aftershow last week that Thea doesn't turn out to be evil so I just can't imagine they would make her Sara's killer unless she was under the influence of something or someone.

[Morrigan2575]

I'm pretty sure that Stephen said in the Arrow Aftershow last week that Thea doesn't turn out to be evil so I just can't imagine they would make her Sara's killer unless she was under the influence of something or someone.

Because an actor would never lie to cover up a major plot twist?

[NumberCruncher]

Because an actor would never lie to cover up a major plot twist?

Of course that's always a possibility, but generally Stephen seems like a straight shooter when it comes to the show. He could have easily said that he couldn't say one way or another but he was pretty adamant when the question was asked.

[apinknightmare]

So, what are the chances that someone who attended the screening will ignore the confidentiality agreement they had to sign and post spoilers?

 

I just want to know what the big reveal is, if Oliver's kid comes into play, and whose DNA is on that arrow.

Edited November 23, 2014 by apinknightmare

[Morrigan2575]

I'm sure someone will spill. There's also the media there and some of them walk a really thin line revealing information. Plus there's the q&a after the screening and the red carpet so there will be tons of information coming out over the next 2 weeks

[NumberCruncher]

I'll bet spoilers get out somehow even if they aren't officially posted by someone from the screening. I'd be okay with that. ;)

Question though...some people are saying they're screening both of the episodes but from what I've seen in how they promoted it they're only showing The Flash episode, no?

[Morrigan2575]

This was always promoted as a special screening of the crossover.

http://www.thefandom.net/tv-shows/enter-to-win-a-chance-to-attend-arrowthe-flash-crossover-screening-event/

Edited November 23, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[NumberCruncher]

Good. Thanks. :)

[pivot]

No sex huh? I can't say I am surprised by that. It sounds like the show will be depressing.

Edited November 23, 2014 by pivot

[SonofaBiscuit]

I actually hope that not many spoilers are posted.  If the spoilers are available, I won't be able to resist looking.  I just want to know how much screentime Laurel has in The Flash portion of the crossover (hope it's like 10 seconds, ha!), and I want to make sure that speculation on the stupid Canary Cry is purely speculation.  If there are any good Oliver/Felicity moments, I'd like to know about those too (not specifics, though).  I find that when you're majorly spoiled and know exactly how the episode is going to play out, it's kind of a let-down.

Edited November 23, 2014 by SonofaBiscuit

[JenMcSnark]

On twitter people are saying they got a sneak of both shows season finales and they look really good.  I've seen several people say the Olicity scene looks to be as good as advertised.  One person said "Prepare Your Souls".  

[Belinea]

I mean, I do understand that they are trying to find a good solution to avoid the mid-season problem they had last year. Some episodes just felt like filler episodes to me. And I do get that in order do that you need to put the focus somewhere else for a little while. However I am not sure if 3-4 episodes with Laurel as the main character/main focus is the best idea. But maybe after those 3-4 episodes you can tell whether they were right or not with their assumption that people only dislike Laurel because she is not yet BC. Still, I believe that after these 4 episodes she will be the BC and there is nothing anyone can (sadly) do about it.

Edited November 23, 2014 by Belinea

[looptab]

That interview on The Hollywood Reporter made me both excited about the crossover and incredibly depressed about what's coming next. Really??Episode 10,11,12, and then 13 called "Canaries"? Really?!?!?! 

[Genki]

That interview on The Hollywood Reporter made me both excited about the crossover and incredibly depressed about what's coming next. Really??Episode 10,11,12, and then 13 called "Canaries"? Really?!?!?! 

 

By that time I will be in practice of not watching, I can't take 3 to 4 episodes like Guilty in a row.

Edited November 23, 2014 by Genki

[Velocity23]

So with 3x10 the Laurel Lance Diaries will begin only on the CW.

[looptab]

I think I'll watch anyway, mostly because I'm really curious about how they're going to pull that off. But I understand people who won't be watching. I mean, talk about 'shove it down our throats'. And all that talk about costume =/= good superhero, plus this new info on this supposed trilogy makes me think that Laurel will be failing at it for one episode top, to become super Insta-Canary the next. Ugh. 

[Password]

I'll just check tumblr for everything. No worries here.

[Velocity23]

Seeems Stephen hasnt worked with the InstaCanary yet.

[Morrigan2575]

I just want to know how much screentime Laurel has in The Flash portion of the crossover (hope it's like 10 seconds, ha!).

Laurel isn't in the Flash part of the crossover and barely in 308 according to information from last night.

Focusing on Laurel for 310-313, is exactly what they did last year and it didn't do much for them (ratings wise). I can't believe they're not only repeating their actions but actually doubling down and getting rid of Arrow in order to do it. Do they really think Arrow missing from Starling City and focusing on BC is a smart move?

I also expect a huge backlash from the Oliver/Arrow fanboys...Laurel gets to be Black Canary after 3 months, Oliver still isn't Green Arrow 2.5 years in? That 2.5 years after 5 years of hell? I don't think that will go over very well at all (IMO).

Seeems Stephen hasnt worked with the InstaCanary yet.

That's because he's only in Flashbacks in 310-311 and probably only returns to Starling at the end of 312. He'll also probably be limited in 313 since that will (most likely) focus on Sara flashbacks to the League and Laurel being BC. So basically 4 episodes in a row without much Oliver, Arrow or Team Arrow.

Oh and SA confirmed the Sara's killer reveal will happen in 309.

Edited November 23, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[strikera0]

That's because he's only in Flashbacks in 310-311 and probably only returns to Starling at the end of 312. He'll also probably be limited in 313 since that will (most likely) focus on Sara flashbacks to the League and Laurel being BC. So basically 4 episodes in a row without much Oliver, Arrow or Team Arrow.

 

Ep 13 s called "Canaries"? I agree this should be CL's fourth appearance this season. Flashbacks are a good bet, but didn't one of the producers say that the next time we would see Sara, it wouldn't be a flashback? Maybe Laurel gets hit with a drug and she starts to hallucinate Sara's ghost.

 

Oh and SA confirmed the Sara's killer reveal will happen in 309.

 

That's what I thought. It's good to have it confirmed that this sucky mystery will be behind us, soon.

Edited November 23, 2014 by strikera0

[Velocity23]

No more crossovers this season for both shows!

[Morrigan2575]

No more crossovers this season for both shows!

I thought they said no more major crossovers like 108/308 but that there will be characters crossing over?

[tv echo]

This upcoming BC trilogy or quartet of episodes sounds about as much fun as getting a root canal.  Honestly, I don't think the ratings will fall that much - esp. not the first episode in January - because other viewers either don't read spoilers and might be expecting Oliver to return right away (to resolve the cliffhanger) or might be satisfied watching any costumed chick kicking ass.  The EPs are probably counting on the latter.  However, I'd bet that they've probably mixed in with those BC episodes some 'great' B scenes involving Felicity, Diggle and/or Thea (which will be heavily promoted) to get fans watching.

 

It's going to be a critical test period - If the ratings drop to the basement, then Laurel may be dropped from the show.  if the ratings are decent, then we're probably stuck with Laurel as the BC for at least another season.  If the ratings are great, then she may get spun off into a BC or BOP show, which would get her off Arrow.  

Edited November 23, 2014 by tv echo

[dtissagirl]

So the "we learned from our mistakes" the EPs were saying at SDCC means they're repeating the exact same pattern with Laurel-heavy episodes in January and Feb Sweeps. I'm actually wondering if the network told them to do it exactly as they did in S2, since the ratings didn't fall too deep, and post Lance Sisters Drama, Laurel went back to being useless to the narrative, and the final run of episodes ended up getting the critical acclaim back.

[Velocity23]

 

2. There won't be any more crossover events for a while.

Though the “Arrow” and “Flash” universes are more linked than ever, the producers admitted that this will be the last two-parter crossover event for the rest of the season. But, there's a good reason.

“The finales that we're building towards on both these shows are so massive, it would just be impossible,” Berlanti explained and teased in one breath.–’

Don't expect other kinds of crossovers anytime soon either. Other big-name DC superheroes won't be visiting Starling or Central City anytime soon, despite onscreen teases about Bludhaven, a fictional city closely associated with Batman sidekick Nightwing.

“There are things we can do, and there are things we can't,” said Kreisberg. “I'm a huge fan of Nightwing. But there are cities we can use, and then there's everything else. You won't be hearing Gotham or Metropolis on the show anytime soon.”

[Ariah]

Now I'm in two minds. I don't want the ratings to drop drastically, because I love the show and want the best for it... But if the drop means no more BC (or a lot less BC)... But what kind of guarantee do we have that a drop in ratings will result in writing off certain character? None.

[Morrigan2575]

2. There won't be any more crossover events for a while.

Though the “Arrow” and “Flash” universes are more linked than ever, the producers admitted that this will be the last two-parter crossover event for the rest of the season. But, there's a good reason.

“The finales that we're building towards on both these shows are so massive, it would just be impossible,” Berlanti explained and teased in one breath.–’

Don't expect other kinds of crossovers anytime soon either. Other big-name DC superheroes won't be visiting Starling or Central City anytime soon, despite onscreen teases about Bludhaven, a fictional city closely associated with Batman sidekick Nightwing.“There are things we can do, and there are things we can't,” said Kreisberg. “I'm a huge fan of Nightwing. But there are cities we can use, and then there's everything else. You won't be hearing Gotham or Metropolis on the show anytime soon.”

Thanks for than, the tweet I saw last night implied no crossover events but possible actor crossovers.

[JJ928]

This is the exact same thing they did last year. They sold 10-13 as Laurel centric & 14 as Lance family centric, only to turn around and try to sell 14 as Felicity centric. Looks like it's going to be the same exact formula. I do appreciate them telling us, now I know what episodes to DVR. Going to post

[apinknightmare]

I don't think any kind of ratings dip will matter (and I agree with @tv echo, I don't think the ratings will fall that much), because they could reason that it's because Oliver's gone. Laurel becoming BC or not, if Oliver wasn't missing in 3x10-3x12 (or 13, I'm not sure where we stand on that), I'd still be watching. She doesn't annoy me to the point where I wouldn't watch, because I enjoy nearly everything else about the show but her. I am going to sit at least the first one out (live) since I know Oliver's not going to be around in present day. I'll see what people have to say about it, then maybe watch it with my finger on the FF button. I know for sure I'll pick it back up once he returns - I'm still to invested to back out now.

Edited November 23, 2014 by apinknightmare

[looptab]

 

"The idea of cast members having that Comic-Con argument on camera — it was one of our earliest ideas.”

What is he talking about? What Comic-Con argument? 

[Morrigan2575]

I don't trust MG at all but after listening to this video interview with him from yesterday, I'm no longer so sure Laurel will become the Black Canary we thought (feared) she might be.

Soulfire posted a video in the spoiler thread with an except...kind of lengthy but I figured I'd respond here to the main comment.

Basically the quote said that Laurel will have to find another way to be a hero other than putting on the mask and fighting since she's the least experienced and least trained and doesn't have Sara's instinct. He said it's a fun dynamic to play out.

The only problem with this is that they already have a character in that role. Felicity is clearly the non-action hero, the one who finds away to help Team Arrow while not suiting up (I don't include Diggle because even though he doesn't suit up he's still in the field).

So really, I don't get WTF they're doing.

As for ratings the show hit a series low of 0.7 last season for 215, 219 and 220/and only bounced back (IMO) because people were curious about Moira's death (221/222) were 0.8 and 2.23 bounced up to 0.9. 210/211 both scored 0.9, anything from a 0.7-0.9 are quite honestly possible for 310-313.

I fully expect Arrow to hit a new series low of 0.6 at some point in 3B, it's inevitable. That's not related to anything I think about the storyline just the pattern the show has displayed in S1/S2.

Edited November 23, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[NumberCruncher]

I don't know what I'll do after the hiatus yet. I don't hate Laurel but I am disappointed by the news because her episodes usually are, by far, the weakest. That coupled with little to no Oliver just don't sound that thrilling but I'm always up for seeing what's up with Diggle, Felicity, Thea, etc. I guess it's good that whether I watch means absolutely nothing in terms of ratings--it takes the guilt out of abusing the FF button on the DVR.

[apinknightmare]

Maybe she'll run for mayor, LOL.

Edited November 23, 2014 by apinknightmare

[tv echo]

So the "we learned from our mistakes" the EPs were saying at SDCC means they're repeating the exact same pattern with Laurel-heavy episodes in January and Feb Sweeps. I'm actually wondering if the network told them to do it exactly as they did in S2, since the ratings didn't fall too deep, and post Lance Sisters Drama, Laurel went back to being useless to the narrative, and the final run of episodes ended up getting the critical acclaim back.

Ah, but the big difference - to the EPs' mind at any rate - is that last season Laurel wasn't the costumed Black Canary but just your normal gal.  This season, it's not so much Laurel-heavy episodes, but BC-heavy episodes.  Ratings gold! 

 

I interpreted what MG said a little differently - it could mean she'll still wear the mask but just be a BC that doesn't use fighting as much to defeat the bad guys.  I just don't believe that the EPs would give up on having a BC.  Either way, I agree that WTF?  Certainly doesn't sound like the competent BC of the comics (that I've heard about).

Edited November 23, 2014 by tv echo

[Password]

Mayb she'll run for mayor, LOL.

It'd be an interesting switch up. Didn't Oliver in the comics do such?

I'm so intrigued by what Oliver will end up doing this season. Getting QC back seems a pipe dream, especially because I like what Ray is doing with it. What will Oliver end up doing for a frikin living?

Edited November 23, 2014 by Limbo

[quarks]

The amusing thing is that after all of the hype last season that Laurel was finally getting her very own five episode arc that would totally turn the character around, said arc ended up containing at least two major Oliver/Felicity scenes, only one episode where Laurel actually did have more than ten minutes of screentime ("Blind Spot,"), turning Laurel from a somewhat incompetent attorney to a completely incompetent attorney facing disbarment whose major accomplishment was shooting the wrong guy in the back, and hooking up Oliver and Sara.  And the final twist: the highest rated and best received episode of that timeline? "Tremors" - which turned out to be about Roy. 

 

I do get the need to try to reassure Laurel fans.  That being said, perhaps a little less hype might be the wiser response right now.

 

All that said, I'll continue with my argument that at least some of this, long term, makes sense for the show. Doing the Laurel episodes in January allows them to turn her into Black Canary and (apparently) give Amell a bit of a break, while giving the show plenty of time to recover by May, which, based on the CBS financial reports, is the main long term goal for the show.  And all that said, I am hoping this doesn't lead to issues with February sweeps ratings, since although I'll trust CBS statements about where Arrow is actually getting its money from (not live viewing ads) the ratings do have a major impact on the show's budget, and as much fun as it is to play "Spot the identical sets!" and "Wait, isn't that the SAME EXACT CROWD that was on the other show last week?" on Arrow and Flash, it would be even more fun to be able to spend lots of money on guest stars.

[Chaser]

That quote to me doesn't make any sense. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Black Canary one of the best fighters in comic books? This great martial artist? I don't see the point of making someone Black Canary and then going against such a big aspect of the character. I imagine a lot of Laurel fans can't wait for her to be Black Canary because they want her to watch her be a bad ass superhero. I don't see how this is going to make them happy. I'm really confused at what they are trying to do with Laurel/Black Canary. 

 

I disagree that she lacks a 'killer instinct.' She showed no remorse when she killed that one guy (in self defense granted), she tried to shot Komodo after knowing he didn't kill Sara and was looking to put a hit out on Malcolm in 3x04. I would actually say she has more of a killer instinct than Sara did.

Edited November 23, 2014 by 10Eleven12

[looptab]

I think it's possible it's temporary. We've all being saying how her being immediately competent and ass-kicking wouldn't be realistic. So she's going to struggle, but ultimately succeed, over time. Basically we're seeing her journey in present time rather than flashback. (IMO)

[dtissagirl]

All I know is that I'm gonna point and laugh A LOT at Katie Cassidy and Vinnie Jones playing Who's The Worst At This Acting Thing for three straight episodes.

[tv echo]

I think the EPs are in a bind.  They want to rush up and get the new BC on the TV screen asap, but they know they'll get flak for the rushed training - esp. when they made such a big deal about Oliver's 5-year journey and Sara's LOA training.  So they end up with a BC who's not a very good fighter.  

 

Like looptab said, maybe their plan is to have Laurel continue improving year after year (ugh!) as the BC until she ultimately becomes the badass fighting ninja BC in Season 5 - at about the same time that Oliver transitions from the Arrow to the Green Arrow?  In the meantime, they keep her in costume as the BC but make her suddenly great at master strategy and tactics because somehow her 'brilliant' legal mind helps her instantly analyze and plan (also ugh!)?

Edited November 23, 2014 by tv echo

[Password]

They're damned if they do and damned if they don't. Sara never should've died to onset Laurel's journey. That's where their problem started. Now they're having to do things to both speed up and off set Laurel's journey to please both sets that are for and against it. But now they have a nothing arc that EVERYONE will complain about so really, ship Laurel off somewhere else to complete her journey and everyone's happy.

Edited November 23, 2014 by Limbo

[apinknightmare]

I too am in a bind, because as much as I don't want to see her be instantly good at Canary-ing, I don't want to watch her struggle or get her ass kicked either.

[looptab]

I too am in a bind, because as much as I don't want to see her be instantly good at Canary-ing, I don't want to watch her struggle or get her ass kicked either.

^^This. Me neither.

 

I think the EPs are in a bind.  They want to rush up and get the new BC on the TV screen asap, but they know they'll get flak for the rushed training - esp. when they made such a big deal about Oliver's 5-year journey and Sara's LOA training.  So they end up with a BC who's not a very good fighter.  

 

Like looptab said, maybe their plan is to have Laurel continue improving year after year (ugh!) as the BC until she ultimately becomes the badass fighting ninja BC in Season 5 - at about the same time that Oliver transitions from the Arrow to the Green Arrow?  In the meantime, they keep her in costume as the BC but make her suddenly great at master strategy and tactics because somehow her 'brilliant' legal mind helps her instantly analyze and plan (also ugh!)?

Yes, I think that's what's going to happen. And I'm ugh! about it too lol

 

On another note, I understood only half the things they said in that Q&A video, but if I'm not wrong in the crossover:

- Dig and Lyla get engaged (YAY) - and we're probably going to see a wedding,

-Oliver kicks Barry's ass,

-Oliver tells Barry that it'll never work between him and Iris, because there is no fun in being a depressed, brooding, lonely hero alone.

[Password]

Oliver does NOT say that to Barrles?! Now this man is annoying me!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited November 23, 2014 by Limbo

[wingster55]

I'm looking forward to it actually.

 

And the crossover so, so much. 

 

I thought they said no more major crossovers like 108/308 but that there will be characters crossing over?

 

I'd love to see that...Thea and Iris for instance. 

 

- Dig and Lyla get engaged (YAY) - and we're probably going to see a wedding,

 

Hmm...I always viewed that as never happening. Sort of...been there done that for them. 

Edited November 23, 2014 by wingster55

[looptab]

Oliver does NOT say that to Barrles?! Now this man is annoying me!!!!!!!!!!!

LOL If I'm not mistaken the lady conducting the interview said it introducing a question to Grant about he and Iris. But the context in which he said it isn't clarified, so who knows? :)

Edited November 23, 2014 by looptab

[Password]

Does he even believe the crap he's selling? Because I swear he's just being stubborn now with this mantra.

ETA: I am now irrationally annoyed. Help

Edited November 23, 2014 by Limbo