Spoiler Discussion Thread

[apinknightmare]

So, Laurel suits up in 3x10 - I'm assuming (HOPING) she's going to be sure of who Sara's killer is at this point, so she's going to go out to murder them or whatever. I really do think this "emotional" scene between her and Diggle is going to be Diggle trying to talk her out of the revenge route - he has experience with that as far as Deadshot goes. It would also work with those anvil-y parallels this show loves to do, as far as being "left behind" when someone you love is murdered, and how difficult it is to deal with that.

 

As for Felicity and Ray - Felicity mentioned that she was terminally single during her fight with her mother, so I think we're to believe that she hasn't had very many long-term relationships. And I guess I'm in the minority - I don't have a problem with her dating someone if she's in love with Oliver - he's taken himself out of the equation. She told him in 3x02 that she wanted more out of life. If she wants to share that life with someone, I don't have a problem with her finding someone who is available to her. I just want it to make sense for the story (and would prefer if her chosen guy was, you know, not creepy). I guess it all depends on a) why Oliver's leaving, and what this great moment between him and Felicity is. I'll wait it out to see what happens before I get worked up.

Edited November 17, 2014 by apinknightmare

[SonofaBiscuit]

The thing is I actually think there is enough reason for Felicity and Oliver to be kept apart a while longer without a love interest. Oliver ended things with Felicity before they even begun so even without Ray she's going to be seriously hesitant to start something with Oliver again. He hurt her, intentionally or not. She'd be wary of getting hurt again, of taking that risk, and she'll probably want to protect herself. Ray shouldn't even come into it. The EP's just wanted to do a love triangle again because apparently that's how they like to write TV romance. It's basically s1 all over again and it's boring.

 

 

I totally agree.  Oliver has loads of problems and Felicity has been hurt one too many times.  This should be enough to keep them apart for a while.  But maybe they are throwing Ray in the mix because they intend to try and spin him off into his own show.  They're probably thinking that it worked with Barry, so it will work with Ray.  Attach him to Felicity and people will love him!  Actually, I have no idea what is wrong with these EPs...they tend to complicate things when there's a much more logical way of reaching their intended goal.  

[wonderwall]

Huh, I wonder if Diggle is up to the task of finally making Laurel a likable person... I mean Oliver tried and failed, Sara was on the verge of making her likable  but she died, Quentin tried but failed because Laurel's an idiot and won't keep him in the loop, hell, her interactions with Felicity made her even more unlikable in my eyes...

 

Then again, MG trolls 99% of the time. That 'sweetest scene' between Oliver/Laurel was anything but for me. 

[ostentatious]

I'm hoping that the purpose of this Ray/Felicity thing isn't just to keep Oliver and Felicity apart, but to actually inform Oliver's character arc. Sure, they can be kept apart for reasons that don't involve third parties, but if the third party is there for Oliver to compare/contrast to himself then he's not *only* a shipbreaker, he's an Oliver aspect.

[writersblock51]

OK, why are they spending any screen time on a much younger Nyssa? WHY?  Unless it's '5 years ago' Nyssa, why do we care?

 

Hoping good news for Diggle and Lyla.

 

Does GB even know what's going on with this show?  I don't understand his non-answer at all.  but I did notice that he brought the Flash into it. Naturally.

 

While I can understand how Diggle and Laurel could have an emotional discussion, why would they.  I hope there's a logical build up to that because other than the WTF "We're naming the baby Sara" moment, I've never seen Diggle or Laurel share anything resembling a nice moment.

[SonofaBiscuit]

Maybe Ray is there to show Oliver that he can be a superhero and a normal person doing normal people things like dating/falling in love, but the EPs could have saved themselves a lot of money and given that responsibility to Diggle.  Diggle is basically a superhero without a costume, and he's showing Oliver that you can have a future with the person you love.  It pretty much seems like Diggle has the things that Oliver wants, so that's kind of why I'm thinking that the EPs have an ulterior motive where Ray is concerned.  Ray isn't really necessary for the story that they're trying to tell. 

Edited November 17, 2014 by SonofaBiscuit

[pivot]

There's some new spoilers posted over in the other thread.  So Diggle has "his most emotional scene" with Laurel in episode 10.  I really hope that we get at least one meaningful Diggle/Felicity scene before that.  I really think that his "most emotional scene" (probably about Oliver missing/being presumed dead) should be with Felicity, but whatever.

 

So we're going to see flashbacks to a young Nyssa?  Why are they wasting time on stuff like that instead of the things that people care about?

I am at go fuck yourself level of anger after reading that Diggle's most emotional scene is with Laurel. Of course, because the entire Arrow show has to revolve around Laurel. It makes no sense. Diggle doesn't even know or seem to give a crap about Laurel but of course he is going to open up with her and not with his actual friends or family. That makes sense.

No matter how hard they try to shoehorn Laurel into Team Arrow it is never going to work until she learns to care about someone else besides herself and her needs.

On a positive note, it will be highly entertaining to watch Ramsey act Cassidy off the screen.

[SonofaBiscuit]

I am at go fuck yourself level of anger after reading that Diggle's most emotional scene is with Laurel. Of course, because the entire Arrow show has to revolve around Laurel. It makes no sense. Diggle doesn't even know or seem to give a crap about Laurel but of course he is going to open up with her and not with his actual friends or family. That makes sense

 

I'm just hoping that this "emotional" scene involves anger and yelling.  Lots and lots of anger and shouting from Diggle.

[pivot]

But why should Diggle care enough to yell at Laurel? He doesn't give two shits about her. There is no relationship there unless she does something boneheaded that puts actual Team Arrow into danger, I just can't see him caring enough to bother yelling.

The EPs act like Laurel is a part of the Team Arrow dynamic. They have Laurel calling Felicity for favors like they are friends, etc. They haven't shown us anything onscreen to make that connection between Laurel and anyone besides Oliver and Quentin. I feel like the EPs are writing for a show that doesn't exist.

[Carrie Ann]

I think it will come from an angry place too, but knowing Dig, he will manage to be perfect and wonderful about it at the same time. In my mind, he has three angles to come at her: 1) Andrew/Sara comparison; 2) Oliver is putting himself in grave danger to solve your sister's murder (theoretically) and you're out there trying to get yourself killed too; 3) Quentin has one daughter left--I have a daughter and would be devastated if anything happened to her--stop doing this.

[Danny Franks]

 

I think one date is okay given that Oliver just rejected her, especially since it sounds like Ray springs it on her as a business occasion.  But to have her in a relationship with him given that she's just told Barry it's still Oliver for her, no.

 

That's what I mean, really. One date is fine, maybe even two or three dates, if she's making an effort to move on. But if she does manage to move on, then how real were her feelings anyway? This is a trope that repeats throughout television, and I just don't get it. Show how important the guy is by having the girl date someone else, or vice versa. Whut? How about showing how important he is by having the girl try to date and just realise she doesn't want to. That's actually relatively original, at this point. And I think it would be a more accurate presentation of the constancy that we've seen in Felicity Smoak's character, over the course of the show.

 

Yes, I get that there's a 'you go, girl' sentiment at work, but I just don't think it really fits who she has been to give her the whole trite storyline. She knows her own mind. She knows what she wants. She showed that in the conversation she had with Barry the other week. Or perhaps the writers of The Flash just get the characters of Arrow better than the Arrow writers do. Now there's something to fear.

Edited November 17, 2014 by Danny Franks

[Guest]

I just find it hilarious actually because Diggle just used to look at Laurel with such disdain and now they're having emotional scenes together. I still remember the scene in s2 when Oliver said 'It started with the three of us, it's time we got back to that' and Diggle's glare at Laurel was so funny. If looks could kill man. I don't know where this emotional stuff is coming from but I hope it's all interlinked with worry about Oliver. That I would believe. But right now I'm betting he's just propping Laurel again. And that's all I'll say about that before I get told off.

Edited November 17, 2014 by Guest

[Velocity23]

After how they handled Diggle in Guilty i am expecting another OOC moment for Diggle.

[Ariah]

Nyssa's young age scenes may correspond with Oliver's situation at (as we assume) LoA. I'm ok with it, as long as it's not another episode without Oliver.

 

I'd like to see Nyssa's flashbacks to the time she met and fell in love with Sara, but... I guess it won't happen.

 

Diggle/Felicity scene, emotional... Wow. All I can think of is Laurel as BC screwing thing up and almost getting someone killed and Diggle giving her the talk. I don't want Diggle to be all fine with Laurel, I need the Diggle that rolled his eyes everytime Oliver mentioned Laurel back.

[wingster55]

If Diggle can co-exist with the man who killed his brother...Laurel shouldn't be a problem.

[wonderwall]

If Diggle can co-exist with the man who killed his brother...Laurel shouldn't be a problem.

lollllll -- I'm seriously looking forward to this scene. Just curious if the scene will be all about Laurel or if it's going to be about Laurel finally seeing Diggle and Felicity as more than subordinates. 

[statsgirl]

The thing is I actually think there is enough reason for Felicity and Oliver to be kept apart a while longer without a love interest. Oliver ended things with Felicity before they even begun so even without Ray she's going to be seriously hesitant to start something with Oliver again. He hurt her, intentionally or not. She'd be wary of getting hurt again, of taking that risk, and she'll probably want to protect herself. Ray shouldn't even come into it. The EP's just wanted to do a love triangle again because apparently that's how they like to write TV romance. It's basically s1 all over again and it's boring.

Yes,  Felicity has two reasons not to get into a relationship with Oliver again:  first because he just rejected her as soon at the first sign of danger, and second because he's still being a martyr and self-sacrificing and who wants to be in a relationship with someone who is looking to get himself killed?

 

So, Laurel suits up in 3x10 - I'm assuming (HOPING) she's going to be sure of who Sara's killer is at this point, so she's going to go out to murder them or whatever. I really do think this "emotional" scene between her and Diggle is going to be Diggle trying to talk her out of the revenge route - he has experience with that as far as Deadshot goes. It would also work with those anvil-y parallels this show loves to do, as far as being "left behind" when someone you love is murdered, and how difficult it is to deal with that.

If the killer is Sin or Thea, I can imagine how Laurel wanting to kill her would go over with Team Arrow.

 

Sadly, I can't see Diggle yelling at Laurel because he's too good a person to take it out on a weaker person.   I hope the scene is about dealing with the murder of a sibling and he can talk some sense into her.

 

I have to admit, I'm mildly curious to see if Ramsey can pull a good performance out of her like Blackthorne can..  That said, I am officially sick of this show shoehorning Laurel in everywhere even moreso now that she knows the secret.

 

. One date is fine, maybe even two or three dates, if she's making an effort to move on. But if she does manage to move on, then how real were her feelings anyway? This is a trope that repeats throughout television, and I just don't get it. Show how important the guy is by having the girl date someone else, or vice versa. Whut? How about showing how important he is by having the girl try to date and just realise she doesn't want to. That's actually relatively original, at this point. And I think it would be a more accurate presentation of the constancy that we've seen in Felicity Smoak's character, over the course of the show.

 

Yes, I get that there's a 'you go, girl' sentiment at work, but I just don't think it really fits who she has been to give her the whole trite storyline. She knows her own mind. She knows what she wants. She showed that in the conversation she had with Barry the other week. Or perhaps the writers of The Flash just get the characters of Arrow better than the Arrow writers do. Now there's something to fear.

Agreeing with you completely here.  Why would she get into a relationship with Ray if it's Oliver she wants?  That would be emotional cheating.

 

Felicity's always been a smart girl, smarter than Oliver certainly.  She's not going to put herself behind locked doors if he doesn't want to be with her but it doesn't make sense for her to get into another relationship. If she does, it's an indication she didn't really love Oliver after all.

 

 

lollllll -- I'm seriously looking forward to this scene. Just curious if the scene will be all about Laurel or if it's going to be about Laurel finally seeing Diggle and Felicity as more than subordinates. 

I think the only way Laurel will see Diggle and Felicity as more than subordinates is if they don't support her and she fails spectacularly, and even then she'll probably blame them for not being there for her.

 

If Oliver does get together with Felicity, Laurel will probably think he's just doing it with the help.

[Danny Franks]

 

Agreeing with you completely here.  Why would she get into a relationship with Ray if it's Oliver she wants?  That would be emotional cheating.

 

Felicity's always been a smart girl, smarter than Oliver certainly.  She's not going to put herself behind locked doors if he doesn't want to be with her but it doesn't make sense for her to get into another relationship. If she does, it's an indication she didn't really love Oliver after all.

 

Not only that, but here's another way they could make Felicity strong and decisive and give her a storyline that would be relatively original, while remaining true to the core of who she is:

 

She goes after Oliver. She tells him she wants him and he needs to get over his martyr bullshit. She tells him she's going to prove to him that he can have the relationship he wants, and they can have the relationship they want together. Why is it up to Oliver to make the decision? That's what undercuts her as a strong woman. This meek acceptance that big, strong, tortured Oliver has had his say and it's final. She has no option but to accept it, and all she can do is move on to the next best thing. How the fuck does this make her strong? Why would she not fight for what she wants?

Edited November 17, 2014 by Danny Franks

[Kordi]

Here are some speculations that I find very interesting:

http://outoftheclosetshipper.tumblr.com/post/102615947633/miss-mudpies-baseless-predictions

[pivot]

God that sounds depressing unless it only lasts 2 episodes. I can't see why the EPs would want to make Arrow irrelevant on their own show, but I don't get most decisions on this show.

[apinknightmare]

Not only that, but here's another way they could make Felicity strong and decisive and give her a storyline that would be relatively original, while remaining true to the core of who she is:

 

She goes after Oliver. She tells him she wants him and he needs to get over his martyr bullshit. She tells him she's going to prove to him that he can have the relationship he wants, and they can have the relationship they want together. Why is it up to Oliver to make the decision? That's what undercuts her as a strong woman. This meek acceptance that big, strong, tortured Oliver has had his say and it's final. She has no option but to accept it, and all she can do is move on to the next best thing. How the fuck does this make her strong? Why would she not fight for what she wants?

 

I don't think it's meek acceptance at all. Oliver gets to have a choice because he's one half of the relationship. It'd be different if he was making a decision FOR her that only affected her, but he's not. He doesn't feel like he can commit, so he told her he can't. He's well within his rights to feel that way.

 

I personally think she is strong by accepting it and moving on. She wants him, but he doesn't want her enough to fight for their relationship (yet). She wants him, but she doesn't NEED him. She wants a relationship, so she's going to go out and find one with someone who wants her back, who can be there for her in ways that Oliver won't or can't at this point. That's what makes her strong, not fighting to change Oliver's mind when he says he can't be with her. That, to me, is pathetic.

Edited November 17, 2014 by apinknightmare

[statsgirl]

I think that's very interesting speculation.  In fact, it may actually be better than what they're going to do.

 

 

God that sounds depressing unless it only lasts 2 episodes. I can't see why the EPs would want to make Arrow irrelevant on their own show, but I don't get most decisions on this show.

I don't think he would be irrelevant because he'd be the person who is holding everyone together even if he's not there.

What I can't see is why they would take him off the show just when "the most polarizing character" is taking center stage.

 

 

She goes after Oliver. She tells him she wants him and he needs to get over his martyr bullshit. She tells him she's going to prove to him that he can have the relationship he wants, and they can have the relationship they want together. Why is it up to Oliver to make the decision? That's what undercuts her as a strong woman. This meek acceptance that big, strong, tortured Oliver has had his say and it's final. She has no option but to accept it, and all she can do is move on to the next best thing. How the fuck does this make her strong? Why would she not fight for what she wants?

Please make this happen.

 

But only to a certain extent. After that, Oliver has to fight for her, and not just throwing things around the Arrow cave.

 

 

She wants a relationship, so she's going to go out and find one with someone who wants her back, who can be there for her in ways that Oliver won't or can't at this point.

This is where I disagree with you.  I know people who have wanted to be in a relationship rather than be with a particular person, and unless it's an arranged marriage (which granted often work out very well), it's always ended badly.  If you want one person and settle for another, you're almost certainly going to be disappointed and divorced.

Edited November 17, 2014 by statsgirl

[Danny Franks]

I don't think it's meek acceptance at all. Oliver gets to have a choice because he's one half of the relationship. It'd be different if he was making a decision FOR her that only affected her, but he's not. He doesn't feel like he can commit, so he told her he can't. He's well within his rights to feel that way.

 

I personally think she is strong by accepting it and moving on. She wants him, but he doesn't want her enough to fight for their relationship (yet). She wants him, but she doesn't NEED him. She wants a relationship, so she's going to go out and find one with someone who wants her back, who can be there for her in ways that Oliver won't or can't at this point. That's what makes her strong, not fighting to change Oliver's mind when he says he can't. That, to me, is pathetic.

 

And she doesn't want him enough to fight at all, it seems. I don't see how it's anything other than acceptance. He said 'nope' she said 'fine'. Hardly an epic romance. I've been on single dates that were more epic than that.

 

I don't see what's strong about settling for the easy option. That being, Felicity finding Oliver-lite and trying to make a go of that. All that says to me is that she doesn't care enough to try changing his mind. What was it Ned Flanders's father said? "We've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas!" That's pretty much what this trope amounts to, in terms of character motivation.

 

Her 'strength' seems like it's going to consist of waiting for Oliver to come crawling back and admit he was wrong so she can... well, probably so she can tell him to sling his hook, I'd guess. It's an adversarial, antagonistic attitude that I don't think really befits any supposedly great romance.

Edited November 17, 2014 by Danny Franks

[TanyaKay]

I seriously don't get Ray Hate.

I am not sure if people just don't like Brandon Routh or if it is residual hatred that people have for him after Chuck or they are creeped out by Ray and his 50 shades behaviour like buying her dress and jewellery and stuff.

I may not love Ray but he is okay with me for two reasons. The first positive of having Ray on our Tv screens is simple - most of his scenes are with Felicity, more Ray means more Felicity and I just love more Felicity. I would gladly watch her brush her teeth or hair because EBR would make it worth watching. The second positive of having Ray scenes is that he most probably will NEVER interact with Laurel so any scene with Ray in it means guaranteed less screen time for Laurel and I cannot stress enough how every episode gets infinitely better with no LL. Case in point, two of the best episodes of season 2 had no LL in it, episode 2x06 and episode 2x08 were sans Laurel and her fake tears and life was glorious.

Edited November 17, 2014 by TanyaKay

[apinknightmare]

And she doesn't want him enough to fight at all, it seems. I don't see how it's anything other than acceptance. He said 'nope' she said 'fine'. Hardly an epic romance. I've been on single dates that were more epic than that.

 

I don't see what's strong about settling for the easy option. That being, Felicity finding Oliver-lite and trying to make a go of that. All that says to me is that she doesn't care enough to try changing his mind. What was it Ned Flanders's father said? "We've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas!" That's pretty much what this trope amounts to, in terms of character motivation.

 

Her 'strength' seems like it's going to consist of waiting for Oliver to come crawling back and admit he was wrong so she can... well, probably so she can tell him to sling his hook, I'd guess. It's an adversarial, antagonistic attitude that I don't think really befits any supposedly great romance.

 

She's not waiting for Oliver to do anything. She's going out and living her life like she said she would. She's spending time with people whose company she enjoys and trying to move on from a guy who is too selfish to let her go and not strong enough to fight for her. Why should she always be the one fighting? She's always convincing him not to give up. She's always convincing him that he's a better person than he thinks he is. She is always fighting for him, and I'm glad she's finally had enough. That she wasn't going to just accept what he was willing to give her, and wants better for herself, that she wants someone who wants to live and love and do all the things Oliver isn't ready for yet. He's got to decide to do those things on his own - no amount of fighting or trying to convince him otherwise is going to make him ready to commit to her. He's got to deal with that himself.

Edited November 17, 2014 by apinknightmare

[statsgirl]

I don't hate Ray, I hate the idea of this contrived out-dated triangle put there for the sole purpose of delaying Oliver and Felicity getting together.

 

If Ray becomes platonic friends with Felicity and she helps him navigate through the tech and other issues toward becoming a superhero, I will be his biggest fan.

Edited November 17, 2014 by statsgirl

[Carrie Ann]

And she doesn't want him enough to fight at all, it seems. I don't see how it's anything other than acceptance. He said 'nope' she said 'fine'. Hardly an epic romance. I've been on single dates that were more epic than that.

 

I don't see what's strong about settling for the easy option. That being, Felicity finding Oliver-lite and trying to make a go of that. All that says to me is that she doesn't care enough to try changing his mind. What was it Ned Flanders's father said? "We've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas!" That's pretty much what this trope amounts to, in terms of character motivation.

 

I don't know. It seems like a simplistic assessment to say that because Felicity isn't "fighting" Oliver on it, then she must not really love him enough. She has emotional issues and baggage of her own, and in my view of her, those issues would factor into how she handles this situation.

I think she may be so afraid of putting herself out there completely--of saying, "Choose me, choose us, instead of________"--because if he doesn't choose her, then that would be too much for her to handle. So she takes the "tough but survivable pain now" to avoid the truly devastating pain (to quote Logan Echolls). She has insecurities; she has abandonment issues. I don't think those make her weak. They make her seem more human, IMO.

 

I think she's going to have to put herself on the line at some point, but I'm not surprised that she wasn't sold enough on his feelings after one date to feel confident that things would go her way.

[patchwork]

Here are some speculations that I find very interesting:

http://outoftheclosetshipper.tumblr.com/post/102615947633/miss-mudpies-baseless-predictions

 

I think this will prove to be mostly on the money. Thea is the logical candidate for Sara'a murder (well not in that she has an actual motive but brainwashed/hypnotised by Malcolm 'The Magician' Merlyn takes cares of that) Oliver would do anything for his baby sister including taking the punishment for killing a member of the LOA. Ra might not care enough about Sara's death to send in the troops but if there's a chance of getting The Arrow as his new pet assassin he'll jump at it. 

 

Felicity/Ray are tricky for me, it all depends on how this date works out. So far I've been trying to give Ray a chance because being the other guy/girl is not a great way to introduce a character and he's obviously going to be more than that before this season ends.

 

The stalking was irritating but I was starting to reason it out as him being a Tommy*/Barry hybrida charming businessman but also a hyperactive puppy about tech stuff. He found a kindred spirit in Felicity which makes him even more boundaries lol than normal.

 

*I love Oliver but he's not a good businessman, if he ever gets QC back he needs to rehire Walter.

 

But springing this date on us complete with creepy dress, necklace and SALLY makes me even more hesitant about their relationship.  It's too soon for a date, there hasn't even been any sparks yet! Not even hints of sparks.

 

As far as the dreaded Oliver hiatus goes I'm not looking forward to it for a number of reasons 1)Increased Laurel screen time. 2)The Hong Kong flashbacks are very boring, Oliver going to Russia and becoming a mob boss can't come soon enough. 3)The possible ruination of Felicity Smaok, a love triangle rarely does a female character any favours with the audience. 

 

If there's a big ILY Olicity scene Felicity can't be in a serious relationship with Ray 2 months later. Nothing we've seen of Felicity suggests she's the rebound type or the sort to get over things quickly. If we must go this way I'd rather the show come back and Felicity is running herself ragged between an executive job at QC -if it's still called that- and being tech support to a group of vigilantes. On top of that is Ray who is taking the Nice Guy approach to getting in her knickers.

 

Then Oliver comes home and after a few fast paced plot episodes he tells her he wants to try again but he assumes she's dating Ray. Unwilling to risk her heart again Felicity doesn't correct him, whether she's dating someone else or not isn't the issue she doesn't trust Oliver not to pull the plug the moment things get difficult. 

[apinknightmare]

This is where I disagree with you.  I know people who have wanted to be in a relationship rather than be with a particular person, and unless it's an arranged marriage (which granted often work out very well), it's always ended badly.  If you want one person and settle for another, you're almost certainly going to be disappointed and divorced.

 

She's not even settling for anyone though. She's dating, she's seeing what her options are. She spent time with Barry, now apparently she's going to be spending time with Ray. Maybe it will end badly, but what's sitting around and waiting for Oliver going to do for her? Absolutely nothing. If she's at a point where she wants to see what life has to offer her, that might include a relationship. It definitely included a relationship when Oliver was an option, now...who knows? She's just living her life and seeing what's out there, and I have no issue with that whatsoever.

Edited November 18, 2014 by apinknightmare

[Morrigan2575]

Thea is a stone cold murderer of someone she actually knew? Not only did she know Sara but she knows Laurel and knew her brother cared for Sara. Thea kills someone that shew knew would cause pain and heartbreak for someone she claims to love and then spends time with that person? Invites them to live with her without guilt or remorse?

Edited November 18, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[apinknightmare]

The only reason I like the Thea as the brainwashed murderer of Sara is because I think it would add a legitimately interesting dynamic to Laurel's crusade because, what? Oliver's going to sit back and let her take revenge on his sister? It really would put the two of them at odds for actual good reason. I don't think the show's going there though.

[Guest]

My only problem with Ray is that he is creepy and his actions so far have been problematic. I don't like the way he manipulated Felicity into working for him and I hated that he told her how she was feeling. And I liked it even less when he turned up at her house when it wasn't necessary and I don't give a damn if this can be explained away because he's nerdy and has no social skills. He didn't get as far as he did in business with no social skills.

 

While I don't think a third party love interest is necessary for the story (and I find love triangles boring and overdone now) believe it or not I was actually fine with Felicity having a temporary love interest when we heard the spoilers for s3 but then Ray happened and now I'm just not interested. Many people see charming, I see a situation that makes me uncomfortable. That's the issue I have. It has nothing to do with Felicity moving on and living her life. It's who she's doing it with. Not to mention I've seen no build up to that. I feel like it's come out of nowhere even though we were told about it. I guess I expected…more?

 

As for the speculation of Oliver leaving, I can definitely see him going willingly to save his loved ones and I do think Thea is involved in that decision somehow. But I find it hard to believe he'd go just because Ra's wants him to join the LoA or whatever, especially because he knows how bad the league really is. His reaction to Sara being part of the league pretty much said it all. 

Edited November 18, 2014 by Guest

[dtissagirl]

Brainwashed by Malcolm, has no idea what she did. It's the only way I can see it being Thea. And even if she didn't do it, I still think she's high on the list to be the new suspect in 309.

Edited November 18, 2014 by dancingnancy

[statsgirl]

Thea is a stone cold murderer of someone she actually knew? Not only did she know Sara but she knows Laurel and knew her brother cared for Sara. Thea kills someone that shew knew would cause pain and heartbreak for someone she claims to love and then spends time with that person? Invites them to live with her without guilt or remorse?

Maybe Thea is the person who doesn't become her comic book character but goes dark instead.  Otherwise, with Roy, Laurel, Ray and then Thea on top of O/D/F, it's going to be a very crowded lair.

 

She's not even settling for anyone though. She's dating, she's seeing what her options are. She spent time with Barry, now apparently she's going to be spending time with Ray. Maybe it will end badly, but what's sitting around and waiting for Oliver going to do for her? Absolutely nothing. If she's at a point where she wants to see what life has to offer her, that might include a relationship. It definitely included a relationship when Oliver was an option, now...who knows? She's just living her life and seeing what's out there, and I have no issue with that whatsoever.

I think it's a question of numbers. If she goes out on dates with various guys, that's seeing what else life has to offer. If she gets into a relationship with Ray (multiple dates, overnights, weekends together, he's her plus one), then I'm going to think she didn't love Oliver after all, at least not in a SO way..

[apinknightmare]

I think it's a question of numbers. If she goes out on dates with various guys, that's seeing what else life has to offer. If she gets into a relationship with Ray (multiple dates, overnights, weekends together, he's her plus one), then I'm going to think she didn't love Oliver after all, at least not in a SO way..

 

Why, though? Oliver told her it wasn't going to happen; he's the one who's the problem here. Felicity can love him and hope for things to be different as much as she wants, if he's unwilling or unable to be in a relationship with her, why shouldn't she try to move on and be happy? Those actions don't reflect on her feelings for Oliver, because he told her it couldn't happen. She loves him, but he made himself unavailable to her. We know it won't be forever, but she doesn't know that. In fact, his relationship history is a mess. At this point, what's to stop her from thinking she's just another blip on his radar? He fooled her into believing he loved her once, now he's backing off again. For all she knows, he'll move on to someone else.

 

It's easy for us to look at it and say that she doesn't love him, because we know the reason why Ray's around. What does Felicity know? That Oliver took her out on a date and ran the second it got difficult. The he doesn't care enough about her to get over it and be with her. So, she can either mope about it, or she can get back in the business of having a life and try to see if there's someone who can give her the things that Oliver can't and/or won't.

Edited November 18, 2014 by apinknightmare

[AnalyzeAndCritique]

Why would Felicity date Oliver's darker haired twin?  

 

Had Felicity and Barry attempted to date, I think it wouldn't have been met with the resistance that Felicity and Ray are being met with. Instead we have Ray who seems to have been cut from the same mold as Oliver even if the ingredients are for a different cookie. Both rich. Both handsome. Both fit. Both singularly focused. Although there are difference, the similarities are too much. Hell, Ray is renaming all of Oliver's QC assets - jet, helicopter, cars, etc. Let's just give Felicity new business cards. Felicity Smoak Ray Palmer's Girl Wednesday/Friday (whatever the overused joke in fan fic is).  

 

If Felicity had met some guy in the grocery store and she faced a life with TA and Oliver (who won't commit to her) or dating guy from aisle 8 who likes the same ice cream, I might see where she was exploring her options. 

 

It's like she's trading sex at the office with Oliver for Ray. It gives me more negative feelings than Felicity exploring her options. Especially because it reminds me of Laurel. Have we forgotten the Oliver, Tommy, Oliver, Tommy game of musical chairs? 

 

Oliver, Ray, Oliver, Ray....

Edited November 18, 2014 by AnalyzeAndCritique

[apinknightmare]

Why wouldn't Felicity date someone who is similar to Oliver? She loves him, why wouldn't she be attracted to someone like him?

 

This show has trouble juggling the characters and storylines it has outside of Felicity - no way are we ever going to get to see her dating randos from the grocery store or some nobody nice guy she meets at yoga. There are gripes to be had with that for sure, but story time is precious, so we need a game changer. Ray? He's a game changer. Not for Felicity necessarily, but for Oliver, most definitely. He needs someone to come in and get him off his ass - he's perfectly comfortable dangling those maybes in front of Felicity, because she's always been around. Someone like Ray who comes in and takes charge and appreciates her brains and gets her out? That's going to get him thinking, and that's the point.

 

We have absolutely no idea how the "date" comes about. We have absolutely no idea how it turns out. It's unfair at this point to compare this situation to Laurel/Tommy/Oliver. Felicity hasn't even had the chance to go back and forth yet - she hasn't even gone out on a date with Ray yet, like...just give it half a second, damn. I mean, I get not liking Ray, because he does have creepy tendencies, but let's maybe hold off on judging the girl until we have a better feel for where this is going. Yes, it could be going in the cliche love triangle direction, but maybe it's not?

[foreverevolving]

@apinknightmare hit the nail that scares me: viewers judging Felicity for what is a perfectly normal thing- you get your heart broken, you don't sit around and mop for the rest of your life, even if he was your soulmate or one true love, at the least you go out there and try to find a partner you can share your life with and maybe not be inlove with but at least share have a loving and trusting relationship. So you put on your sexiest outfit, and go out there and try to at least find content in your life.

 

sitting and moping and waiting for the person wake up and grow up is pathetic. If Felicity would have done or have tried to convince Oliver to change his mind that would make her, in my opinion, look like Fakanary pre-island, pushing Ollie into something he is not ready for. Oliver at the state he is in right now is not ready for a proper relationship, he is closer than in season 1, but he has too much issues- and so does Felicity- they both need more time to get their acts together separately and grow as individuals before they can grow as a couple.

The end point is only half of the what matters, it is the journey that is important.

[insubordination]

Too many vigilantes spoil the broth.

 

Also, all I ever read after every review/recap is 'more Diggle please'. Why don't they use the characters they've got instead of showing more vigilante origin stories?

[Starfish35]

Here are some speculations that I find very interesting:

http://outoftheclosetshipper.tumblr.com/post/102615947633/miss-mudpies-baseless-predictions

I think this sounds like a very plausible theory that would make almost all the pieces fit. Except for why would Thea kill Sara? Someone here earlier said that Sara had replaced her mask before she was killed, so Thea may not have known it was Sara. My question is - wouldn't the killer have been watching? But since I didn't see the scene, I will trust those who did. Now as to why Thea would have wanted to or been convinced to kill the Canary would be the question. But otherwise I could see this happening this way. And it ties into the spoiler about Diggle and Laurel neatly. It would fit for him to be sharing his experience dealing with working with the man who killed his brother.

And while I wouldn't hold my breath on this one, Thea being the killer might point to an eventual exit strategy for Laurel at the end of the season, if she eventually decides that it's too hard being near her sister's killer and she'd rather start over somewhere else. But that's probably just my wishful thinking popping up again. ;)

[apinknightmare]

I think this sounds like a very plausible theory that would make almost all the pieces fit. Except for why would Thea kill Sara? Someone here earlier said that Sara had replaced her mask before she was killed, so Thea may not have known it was Sara.

 

Whoever killed her knew it was her. Before he or she shot the arrow, they said, "Hello, Sara."

[MsSchadenfreude]

I will never be onboard with the idea that Felicity should try to fight to make Oliver to change his mind, or in the alternative not have a relationship with anyone else because she has feelings for Oliver.  Oliver is a grown ass man who made himself very clear that he was not willing to have a relationship.  And then followed it up by telling Felicity he was expecting to die being a vigilante. I like that Felicity respected his decision (even if I think his decision is stupid, he has every right to make it), but also made it very clear she was not waiting for him.  If Oliver gets bothered in the next episode because Felicity is having dinner with Ray… oh well.  I love Oliver, but actions have consequences and in this case Oliver's actions may just result in Felicity finding something (be it dinner or more) with Ray. 

 

I really hope it is not Thea.  Just let Sara's killer be the LOA.  It's predictable, but then so is this whole murder mystery.

Edited November 18, 2014 by MsSchadenfreude

[Starfish35]

Whoever killed her knew it was her. Before he or she shot the arrow, they said, "Hello, Sara."

Ok, then that doesn't work as well, because I have a hard time seeing Thea knowingly killing Sara. Unknowingly, possible. But not knowing who she was.

Besides, the other thing I thought of after I posted....I'm still kind of convinced that Waller is going to be involved somehow, because of how they like to tie what happens in the flashbacks to the present, like they did with Slade. I'm not sure what Waller's motive would be, but I'm still thinking she'll end up having been involved somehow.

Edited November 18, 2014 by Starfish35

[AnalyzeAndCritique]

I'm trying to figure out who is judging Felicity. Most of the speculation has been about how badly TIIC  could mess it up. Most viewers I think were onboard with Felicity having options when a potential LI was floated over the summer. I think Ray is the problem. 

 

Felicity called him a stalker. He's handsome but not as charming as I believe we were promised. He's smart, but I don't see the chemistry we were promised. He's taken QC. He's handing Oliver losses. As this is Oliver's story, you won't win favorable feelings towards a new character if they keep dealing losses. Ray was the better person to be in charge of QC absolutely, but it still feels like a loss for Oliver. 

 

Knowing Ray has a superhero destiny ahead of him, it is difficult to invest in Ray and Felicity. Every superhero/vigilante has to go through their "I can't be with the one I love" phase. Poor Felicity. She's going through it with Oliver now and Ray later. It is a continued pattern of the men in her life leaving her. 

 

Again some rando from the grocery store wouldn't cultivate this trepidation. Plus it really does give Felicity the added crossroads of "great guy who loves me and I could be happy with" or "man I love who may or may not ever be ready to commit."

 

I think the judging is more about how TIIC are poorly handling everything about Arrow most of the viewers appreciated. I didn't mind some of the weaker stuff when I had the original TA and the bit of Olicity we had in 2A. 2B was a disaster and they said they recognized it and were fixing it. The number of people with access to the Arrow cave has gotten larger. TA is fractured. Olicity is not a thing right now. I reserve the right to be wary of where the show is going - Felicity date included. 

 

I'm not even going to speculate on who killed Sara because I think they wrote her murder without a murderer in mind. They are grasping for who killed her as much as Laurel is. They'll pick someone out of the hat and it won't make sense, but because they are driving the plot they'll have a murderer.

Edited November 18, 2014 by AnalyzeAndCritique

[Guest]

Ok, then that doesn't work as well, because I have a hard time seeing Thea knowingly killing Sara. Unknowingly, possible. But not knowing who she was.

Besides, the other thing I thought of after I posted....I'm still kind of convinced that Waller is going to be involved somehow, because of how they like to tie what happens in the flashbacks to the present, like they did with Slade. I'm not sure what Waller's motive would be, but I'm still thinking she'll end up having been involved somehow.

 

I totally agree that Waller is involved. The flashbacks usually tie in with what's happening in the present day and there's enough evidence that Waller will do whatever it takes for her own agenda. I don't know if she was the one who shot the arrows but I feel like she's behind it. 

[Chaser]

I just want to watch Felicity and Thea speed date...

[Sunshine]

I totally agree that Waller is involved. The flashbacks usually tie in with what's happening in the present day and there's enough evidence that Waller will do whatever it takes for her own agenda. I don't know if she was the one who shot the arrows but I feel like she's behind it. 

It hasn't come out yet but I believe Sara is supposed to work with the Suicide Squad in an upcoming issue of Arrow 2.5 which would tie into Waller/ARGUS.

[Guest]

It hasn't come out yet but I believe Sara is supposed to work with the Suicide Squad in an upcoming issue of Arrow 2.5 which would tie into Waller/ARGUS.

 

Ooooh, well that's even more interesting then, especially as they said that elements introduced in 2.5 might sometimes appear in s3. It would explain how Sara recognized her killer. 

 

I'm also starting to wonder if there was someone else up on the roof because Sara looked like she glanced between two people. So even if Waller didn't shoot the arrows she easily could have been the one to say 'Hello Sara' and watched as someone else did the deed and Sara dies. 

Edited November 18, 2014 by Guest

[JenMcSnark]

About Thea, we do have the description of the killer as being short and weaker with the bow.  And we have the anvil that Felicity dropped when telling Oliver that Thea was approaching the side door of the club (paraphrasing) 'We have a small problem.  Well, not small but short."

 

So it's possible that cute comment was purely innocent and it's possible it really was an anvil. And even if it was an anvil, was it real or was it to mislead?  

 

In Summary:  I don't care. 

[writersblock51]

We also know that Thea knows archery. Is she rusty?