Spoiler Discussion Thread

[Trisha]

3 minutes ago, way2interested said:

Re: the clip in the Spoiler Thread

So we finally know the illegal thing Helix wants Felicity to do!

I really like how she immediately calls out Oliver on his hypocrisy in this clip, and he's all quiet and just kind of takes it. I didn't actually realize how much I want them to fight until now. (Also, judging by that clip, I'm guessing this is when Oliver "sees what's coming" with Helix). I'm wondering how he ends up stopping her at the end of this episode that makes her so angry at the beginning of 520.

[LeighAn]

Things I liked: 

Helix carrying over into season 6, it means more storylines for Felicity, plus with hopes for her father to come back that bodes well for her screen time next season. We might get Felicity and friends show back :P

The quote about Olicity not needing to deepen their respect for one another because they already have a deep respect.

The fact that Olivers birthday sounds like it's going to be a quiet hanging out scene. The show needs more scenes of the team just hanging out and having downtime every now and then.

[apinknightmare]

15 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

Yes, but vaguely knowing something is up with her is not "seeing it coming and being powerless to stop her."

I think maybe she's referring to him asking her to tell him what's going on because keeping secrets never works out well or whatever he said to her, and knowing noting good is going to come out of something she doesn't want to tell anyone about. 

[LeighAn]

5 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

At this point, I wonder if I even need to drag the list out. We're going to see what actually happens anyway in less than 12 hours, and next week :P

I just really don't get being concerned by Wendys interviews when every time what she says doesn't pan out as badly or sometimes at all like she sells it.

But you're right we will soon see if Wendy is finally right about something and Felicity is going to tell Oliver that he was right to lie to her or not.

[tv echo]

Natalie Abrams has revised her EW article so that the "sorry, all Olicity Twitter fans" phrase is no longer in parens...

Quote

And yet the sizzle trailer seems to indicate they’re on the road to reconciliation. Is that true?
They are definitely on the road toward — well, the interesting thing about taking her down this road with Helix is she is going to come out of it with this, the same way Diggle came out of it when he killed his brother — new understanding and appreciation for where Oliver’s been and what he’s been through. No matter whether they end up together or not — sorry, all Olicity Twitter fans — this is going to absolutely deepen the relationship. It has to. She’s now gone through her own island in a way.

http://ew.com/tv/2017/04/25/arrow-season-5-finale-spoilers/

Edited April 26, 2017 by tv echo

[LeighAn]

Just now, tv echo said:

Natalie Abrams has revised her EW article so that the "sorry, all Olicity Twitter fans" phrase is no longer in parens...

http://ew.com/tv/2017/04/25/arrow-season-5-finale-spoilers/

And yet that makes me side eye Natalie even more *shrug*

[lemotomato]

4 minutes ago, tv echo said:

Natalie Abrams has revised her EW article so that the "sorry, all Olicity Twitter fans" phrase is no longer in parens...

And yet the sizzle trailer seems to indicate they’re on the road to reconciliation. Is that true?
They are definitely on the road toward — well, the interesting thing about taking her down this road with Helix is she is going to come out of it with this, the same way Diggle came out of it when he killed his brother — new understanding and appreciation for where Oliver’s been and what he’s been through. No matter whether they end up together or not — sorry, all Olicity Twitter fans — this is going to absolutely deepen the relationship. It has to. She’s now gone through her own island in a way.

http://ew.com/tv/2017/04/25/arrow-season-5-finale-spoilers/

That's actually how I expect to see an aside like that if it's a direct quote. The parenthesis was too confusing. 

Edited April 26, 2017 by lemotomato

[Chaser]

That from WM quote is a mess. It sounds like she is talking in the affirmative about Olicity getting back together, then switches to the will they won't they and then goes to the negative in a weird way. WTH are you talking about WM?

[wonderwall]

@lemotomato could you repost a list of all times Wendy has been wrong about the show? I hardly think anything she says is confirmation. 

[ComicFan777]

Quote

That's actually how I expect to see an aside like that if it's a direct quote. The parenthesis was too confusing. 

I think the punctuation is correct in either case NA used it though.  Grammar-wise, I think parentheses and dashes are interchangeable/equivalent for adding info, quick change in thought, or a means to draw attention.  Choice of usage depends on the writer's style/preference.    

I think square brackets are generally used in direct quotes for writer's inserts for clarification.

Edited April 26, 2017 by ComicFan777

[theOAfc]

16 hours ago, statsgirl said:

They're doing it to wrap things up and bury it finally and firmly.  At least that's what the anti-Olicity people are hoping.

It could be anything. I still think the 5x09 flashback scene was mainly shipbait to create internet buzz(MG did say in DMs that people would lose their minds over it) . I personally believe the end of the season will reveal a lot regarding 5x20 and the intentions behind it (whether its shipbait or them indicating a soon to be olicity reconcilation) but at this point i just dont see them not going back to olicity with these low ratings and the lack of buzz surounding this show(and yes i dont think it was their plan all along to reunite them-i actually dont think these people ever have legit plans over anything really,they probably have ideas about plot points). Maybe if they had managed to keep that 0.7,which they didnt,i could see them being more confident with their writing decisions this season. 

One could say the incosistent all over the place writing shows that they dont build to anything but rather change decisions during the season,regarding their stories and characters, based on ratings,feedback etc. 

[LeighAn]

7 minutes ago, Chaser said:

That from WM quote is a mess. It sounds like she is talking in the affirmative about Olicity getting back together, then switches to the will they won't they and then goes to the negative in a weird way. WTH are you talking about WM?

Pretty much sums Wendy up haha. Was it @way2interested who called it the Wendy-word-salad? 

[lemotomato]

WM over sells and equivocates in her interviews all the time. Thanks to @TV ECHO's spoiler archive, here's what WM has said vs what actually happened on the show so far:

• WM: "There will be more standalone episodes this season. Um, and I think that we'll be - we are looking to kind of go deeper into the bench of villains from the DC Universe, and again... go back to our roots in the way that we had - more season 1."

What actually happened as of 518: One episode featuring China White, Cupid, and Lady Cop

• On how Flashpoint will affect Arrow, WM: "Yeah, I can tell you that it's going to have - we are going to, you know, we're going to honor it and see what kind of effect it'll have on our characters.” “It will have a big impact on the characters that it does have an impact on." “And there will be some characters that are…more influenced or more impacted by it than others. And I definitely would say, you know, Felicity is going to be - she's going to be carrying something in regard to that through the season.”

What actually happened: throwaway mention that Baby Sara is now Baby JJ. And both mentions happened during Arrow/Flash crossovers. (Flash 302 and 308) No effect on Felicity as of 518.

• In the producer’s preview to 505, WM talks about the assassin hired to take out Oliver in the episode, Scimitar. She calls him “Scimitar, another big DC universe character"

What actually happened: There’s no DC universe character named Scimitar

• On Felicity, WM: "She's really, in the beginning of the season, grappling with the fallout from what happened at Havenrock and that will be a huge focus for her in the first nine [episodes].”” For the first half of the season, Felicity is really going to be focused on Haven Rock and what she did in last season”

What actually happened: Havenrock only got mentioned in 503 and 504.

• On what ways we might see KC appear in Arrow outside of just flashbacks, WM: " You will see in the episodes where she appears - Episode 510 definitely, our midseason premiere.  People can leave and get killed and you can still find new and crazy ways for them to come back. I can definitely tell you that there's a way we're going to bring her back and she's going to be alive and well. And Flashpoint might have a little bit to do with that”

What actually happened: She wasn’t LL alive and well, and Flashpoint had nothing to do with it

• On whether a Black Canary might suit up as soon as by S5’s end, WM: “There’s definitely a possibility... Look, it’s hard to do a show about Green Arrow without having a Black Canary. I don’t know if it will happen this season or when, but… we are going to be true to origins in the DC universe, and she’s always going to be there.”

What actually happened: Hai, Dinah Drake!

• On Malone’s death affecting Felicity: "[Malone's death] is going to deepen her understanding of what [Oliver] went through, and it's also going to deepen her as a character, which was honestly the primary goal of telling the story... Detective Malone's death is really the kickoff of that journey for the back half of the season for her."

What actually happened: Felicity’s “dark arc” with Helix started when she used them to help get Diggle out of prison, then to get info on Bratva, to find Susan when she was abducted, to find Oliver when he was abducted, and to get evidence on Chase after he tortured Oliver. She’s only mentioned Malone once, in 510. Malone’s death has been shown to affect Oliver more than it has affected Felicity.

• On Oliver and Susan’s relationship: WM: "I think there are, for him, places of light and hope." "[Oliver's] got hope! He’s got hope in the form of the mayor’s office and this burgeoning relationship with Susan Williams."

What actually happened: Oliver admits that he dated her because he was lonely. She dumped him and blamed him for her losing her job, told him he deserved to be impeached, only forgave him after she got her job back, was abducted by Chase, and then he dumped her.

• On Oliver and Susan’s breakup: “I don’t know how you overcome that,” says co-showrunner Wendy Mericle. “I mean, Susan’s still there. She’s on the show. And we love Carly [Pope]. But for any couple that’s been through that kind of trauma – and trauma that, ultimately, Susan can trace back to Oliver in some ways – let’s just say that’s a tough thing to come back from.”

What actually happened: Susan didn’t blame Oliver and pleaded with him  not to push her away  He dumped her anyway.

In summary: don't put any stock in what WM says.

[Midnight Lullaby]

9 minutes ago, Chaser said:

That from WM quote is a mess. It sounds like she is talking in the affirmative about Olicity getting back together, then switches to the will they won't they and then goes to the negative in a weird way. WTH are you talking about WM?

That's her way of teasing stuff without spoiling it, LOL

[LeighAn]

2 minutes ago, theOAfc said:

It could be anything. I still think the 5x09 flashback scene was mainly shipbait to create internet buzz(MG did say in DMs that people would lose their minds over it) . I personally believe the end of the season will reveal a lot regarding 5x20 and the intentions behind it (whether its shipbait or them indicating a soon to be olicity reconcilation) but at this point i just dont see them not going back to olicity with these low ratings and the lack of buzz surounding this show(and yes i dont think it was their plan all along to reunite them-i actually dont think these people ever have legit plans over anything really,they probably have ideas about plot points). Maybe if they had managed to keep that 0.7,which they didnt,i could see them being more confident with their writing decisions this season. 

One could say the incosistent all over the place writing shows that they dont build to anything but rather change decisions during the season,regarding their stories and characters, based on ratings,feedback etc. 

Marc has said many times that is not true. That they write so far in advance that they can't change storylines on a dime the way youre suggesting. They probably had the drafts for 5x20 written before the show dropped to 0.5.

Marc from memory said only the other day in a tumblr ask that they are usually 5-6 scripts ahead. 

[lemotomato]

2 minutes ago, ComicFan777 said:

I think the punctuation is correct in either case NA used it though.  Grammar-wise, I think parentheses and dashes are interchangeable/equivalent for adding info, quick change in thought, or a means to draw attention.  Choice of usage just depends on writer's style/preference.    

I think square brackets are generally used in direct quotes for writer's inserts in clarification.

Technically correct, but I feel like it's something she should have run past an editor or another pair of eyes precisely because the way she used it caused confusion. She could've saved herself from a lot of aggravation if she had used dashes the first time. 

[Midnight Lullaby]

I think the main problem wasn't her punctuation but her reputation with the fandom..

[leopardprint]

41 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

I don't understand how it makes sense to compare Helix to the BMD other than in the alternative reality where Oliver was doing all he could to keep his kid safe and Felicity is a super villain. I hope since it's Wendy it won't translate on screen.

It's an absolutely ludicrous comparison!

Here's a parallel I'll take: Oliver uncritically agreed to Samantha's ridiculous demands and Felicity accepted the Helix tasks without question so if the lesson is "Don't let sketchy people tell you to do sketchy things without telling your partner" then I'll accept it. (Somehow I doubt that's what they're going for) 

I'm glad Oliver and Felicity are going to argue and fight! Yay! I wonder if he is going to kidnap her from Helix or otherwise go over her head to interfere with the mission. 

Edited April 26, 2017 by leopardprint

[theOAfc]

3 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

Marc has said many times that is not true. That they write so far in advance that they can't change storylines on a dime the way youre suggesting.

I understand that episodes are aired many weeks after they are written which means feedback from fans after watching wont affect some of the later episodes because they are already written and some even filmed. However, im pretty sure the writers can change their writing tone regarding stories and characters from start of season to the finish of season(when writing most of 5b they knew what fans' complaints were regarding 5a). Theres enough time for that.

So: 1)MG's statement is true but my point is different and 2) are we supposed to trust the EPs' words whenever it fits our view of things?

When 5b started they hadnt even written 5x18 or something. They knew what the feedback over 5a was and they saw all the fan reaction over 5a.

[LeighAn]

@lemotomato another thing to add to your Wendy talks out of her ass list.

At the beginning of the season Wendy said she was writing away from Olicitys relationship, and yet in the interview just posted she said how the writers had been excited all year to have an episode dedicated to exploring Olicitys relationship and we're waiting for the right time.

Snarkiness aside Wendy made me cautiously optimistic about Felicitys storyline for next season but I've learnt from Havenrock to manage my expectations. But I like the hints that Felicity might have a more physical role on the show.

Edited April 26, 2017 by LeighAn

[insomniadreams88]

WM is also the one who said they were going to see where the chemistry took them for O/F ... and then we got S5 and a few seconds in a sizzle reel that made it really obvious the chemistry is still there and they just wanted to tell the story they did and didn't actually care about the chemistry. 

[bethy]

2 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

Snarkiness aside Wendy made me caustically optimistic....

Are you sure you've put the snarkiness aside? :)

[leopardprint]

I feel like most of us are "caustically optimistic". That's a good description for part of the Arrow fan base, @LeighAn. Truth in typos. ?

Edited April 26, 2017 by leopardprint

[LeighAn]

15 minutes ago, theOAfc said:

 

So: 1)MG's statement is true but my point is different and 2) are we supposed to trust the EPs' words whenever it fits our view of things?

When 5b started they hadnt even written 5x18 or something. They knew what the feedback over 5a was and they saw all the fan reaction over 5a.

From memory episode 14 was when the show dropped to 0.5 for the first time right? By Marcs time frame they would have already written 5x20 and be breaking or planning episodes after that.

You said in your post that you think they put 5x20 and will likely put Olicity back together as a response to the 0.5 ratings when really they had already written and likely planned out 5x20 and subsequent episodes before they even saw the 0.5 ratings.

Plus since they had assured renewal for season 6, ratings are more a pride thing for the writers and factor into budgets then needing high ratings to stay on the air; so I don't think they would change storylines on a dime just for ratings. 

Edited April 26, 2017 by LeighAn

[LeighAn]

13 minutes ago, bethy said:

Are you sure you've put the snarkiness aside? :)

Whoops haha That's embarrassing I blame auto correct! I'll edit.

[theOAfc]

Just now, LeighAn said:

You said in your post that you think they put 5x20 and will likely put Olicity back together as a response to the 0.5 ratings

I never said that. I said that they failed to keep that 0.7 and ratings keep dropping so their change of tone regarding olicity might be a response to feedback and ratings. Also,apart from that, you do realise that even before 5x14 ratings were already very close to hitting that 0.5 right? Its not like arrow had 0.7 and suddenly it dropped to 0.5. There was a clear drop thoughout the season and 5b never once managed to go back to 0.7 unlike with s4 that ratings failed to recover only after 4x15. Maybe re-read my post. 

[bethy]

2 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

Whoops haha That's embarrassing I blame auto correct! I'll edit.

It's perfect, though! :)

[LeighAn]

1 minute ago, bethy said:

It's perfect, though! :)

Ha I'd like to say I did it on purpose but no I'm assuming it's my autocorrect or I had a brain slip. I swear sometimes even when when I spell words right my auto will change them entirely. 

[Morrigan2575]

8 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

From memory episode 14 was when the show dropped to 0.5 for the first time right? By Marcs time frame they would have already written 5x20 and be breaking or planning episodes after that.

You said in your post that you think they put 5x20 and will likely put Olicity back together as a response to the 0.5 ratings when really they had already written and likely planned out 5x20 and subsequent episodes before they even saw the 0.5 ratings.

Plus since they had assured renewal for season 6, ratings are more a pride thing for the writers and factor into budgets then needing high ratings to stay on the air; so I don't think they would change storylines on a dime just for ratings. 

514 was the first time Arrow hit 0.5 and it aired on 2/22. Going by the script pages 519 was filming, and 520 entered prep on 5/23 (so it was already written). By that point in time they had already broken all the episodes, 521 was probably in early draft, etc etc etc

However, you can throw out all the facts and reality you want it won't matter. Denial is strong in fandom.

[tv echo]

If I just read WM's comments, then I get pessimistic about the chances of Oliver & Felicity reconciling as a couple any time in the near future. Reading both her comments and MG's comments, I just don't know what's going to happen with Olicity by the end of this season. They do like their surprises and twists.

I'm pretty sure that "Cayden James" (Helix founder) is going to turn out to be an alias for someone's real name. But I've been trying to figure out if the name is an anagram. If so, this anagram puzzle is beyond my capabilities.

CAYDEN JAMES
AAEE CDJMNSY

Regarding Slade's return, I suspect that what happens to him in the finale will have been dictated influenced by DC Comics because Deathstroke is going to be the villain in the next Batman solo movie and also has his own individual comics series. I don't think the tv show will kill off Slade (like they did Amanda Waller) because they'll want the option of bringing him back in the future. However, they may want to bolster his bad-assery, rather than leave him as someone who was taken down by Thea and then stuck in ARGUS prison. It's possible that they'll present a somewhat remorseful, mirakuru-free anti-hero Slade who'll go off to seek atonement for his past sins. It's also possible that Oliver will empathize and liken his own PTSD-driven S1 killing spree to Slade's mirakuru-driven killing spree, and therefore let Slade go free after Slade helps him defeat Prometheus. It's also possible that Slade will fool and blindside Oliver, and take off at the end so that he can maybe return in the future to terrorize Oliver.

Edited April 26, 2017 by tv echo

[LeighAn]

7 minutes ago, tv echo said:

If I just read WM's comments, then I get pessimistic about the chances of Oliver & Felicity reconciling as a couple any time in the near future. Reading both her comments and MG's comments, I just don't know what's going to happen with Olicity by the end of this season. They do like their surprises and twists.

Marc is more antagonistic and blunt then Wendy but at the same time that bluntness means he's usually more straightforward about his answers then Wendy is. She over sells, attributes emotions and insights into the characters that she neglects to write into the show and doesnt seem to have mastered the art of the tease.

[BkWurm1]

37 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

I feel like most of us are "caustically optimistic". That's a good description for part of the Arrow fan base, @LeighAn. Truth in typos. ?

I'm so adopting this.  ????

[tv echo]

I do like this WM comment (from today's CBR article)...

WM: "Felicity is always at the center of everything, right along with Oliver."

Edited April 26, 2017 by tv echo

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

I'm so adopting this.  ????

I may just adopt this for my entire life. LOL

[LeighAn]

Haha Oh no I've started a trend. 

[catrox14]

Just now, LeighAn said:

Haha Oh no I've started a trend. 

Wear it with pride.

[Trisha]

23 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

However, you can throw out all the facts and reality you want it won't matter. Denial is strong in fandom.

I think reality is probably a mix of both, though. 514 is when they hit 0.5, but they'd been free-falling for a while before then. Personally, I think that they always planned to reunite them around this time (even though the way and length they kept them apart was really poorly planned), but I could be convinced that they built up 519-520 to be more Olicity-centric than it was originally intended. Like, had they always planned to do an ep with only Olicity flashbacks? I'm not so sure.

It's hard to speak in absolutes about the writers' motivations because it's hard to figure out what is most concerning to them/the network/the studio. The social buzz has fallen considerably and ratings dropped further than other CW shows (and though it's harder to assess its performance on streaming, cwtv, iTunes, etc., those ratings are probably corresponding). But on the other hand, mainstream sites like AV Club have been giving it its best reviews in years. If we don't know what they're reacting to, it's hard to explain their reactions. My guess is that they are reactive in some ways to the feedback they're seeing, but it's hard to know just how much.

[leopardprint]

51 minutes ago, Trisha said:

but I could be convinced that they built up 519-520 to be more Olicity-centric than it was originally intended. Like, had they always planned to do an ep with only Olicity flashbacks? I'm not so sure.

Yes, I agree with this. The disconnect between Oliver and Felicity has been a constant criticism from the start but they've been saying they worked it out over the break but then switched to 520 will explain it all. 

ETA: I'm curious to see if the 520 conversation changes how the 501/505 Olicity scenes are interpreted, whether they fit or it will be total retcon. 

ETA2: Has there been any comments about Oliver's understanding of his side of the breakup? It seems like they are putting it all on Felicity and that makes me nervous. Or was that dealt with when he told her he would never lie again? 

Edited April 26, 2017 by leopardprint

[statsgirl]

Felicity has never been against killing but only as a last resort when everything else has failed, which is why she wanted Oliver to kill Ra's and Damian Darhk after he killed Laurel, but she wanted Oliver to find another way with Slade  So it makes sense that she's willing to do whatever it takes to stop Chase.

But she's never wanted to kill other people, which is why killing the guy in the elevator goes against what she has stood for up to now.  And before, it's always been Oliver or Diggle or someone else who did the killing, not her.  Add that to the deaths she couldn't prevent in Havenbrook and it's a very conflicted situation for her.

3 hours ago, Trisha said:

I don't know why, but the Olicity fans mention didn't bother me at all. It was her clumsy way of saying "I know these fans want it but I can't confirm it's happening."

It didn't bother me because she said "Olicity twitter fans" which means it's directed to the twitters fans who have been asking them for more Olicity and Felicity all season.  It's not directed to the Olcity fans overall.

Quote

"[Chase is] gonna pull some stuff at the end of 19 that will definitely keep the team on its toes, and in some ways prevent them from capitalizing on their victory in the previous episode," Mericle tells us. 

Between this and Oliver doing something that Felicity is going to be angry about next episode, I wonder if it's something that Oliver does that causes her chp to malfunction and for them to be stuck underground with each other.

[Sunshine]

1 hour ago, leopardprint said:

 

ETA2: Has there been any comments about Oliver's understanding of his side of the breakup? It seems like they are putting it all on Felicity and that makes me nervous. Or was that dealt with when he told her he would never lie again? 

I think they think the lying has been addressed.  There has been no mention that I recall about Oliver understanding anything.  I think what's going to be addressed/reframed is an understanding of why he has felt the need to "go it alone."  It's what she is doing now. She's excluded everyone in relation to her involvement with Helix.

[apinknightmare]

15 minutes ago, Sunshine said:

I think they think the lying has been addressed.  There has been no mention that I recall about Oliver understanding anything.  I think what's going to be addressed/reframed is an understanding of why he has felt the need to "go it alone."  It's what she is doing now. She's excluded everyone in relation to her involvement with Helix.

It's not the way I'd personally want it addressed, but he did promise not to lie to her again, and he does seem to have gotten the point that what he did last year by "going it alone" isn't the right way to deal with things. I'm guessing there will be something in 20 (since Felicity talks about William), but I'm not really expecting much more. 

[leopardprint]

14 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

 

32 minutes ago, Sunshine said:

I think they think the lying has been addressed.  There has been no mention that I recall about Oliver understanding anything.  I think what's going to be addressed/reframed is an understanding of why he has felt the need to "go it alone."  It's what she is doing now. She's excluded everyone in relation to her involvement with Helix.

It's not the way I'd personally want it addressed, but he did promise not to lie to her again, and he does seem to have gotten the point that what he did last year by "going it alone" isn't the right way to deal with things. I'm guessing there will be something in 20 (since Felicity talks about William), but I'm not really expecting much more. 

 

I think you're both right but I hope you aren't, hahaha. Something else I would like to see that will never happen, is for them to discuss how messed up Samantha's demands were. Oliver was wrong to listen to her but she was completely wrong to ask that of him. I don't see how Felicity could have had a partner who would put the irrational demands of their lying coparent first. Ultimately, both Samantha and Oliver acted from a place of fear. 

I wish they had gone more for "fear/anger can make you take rash decisions" explanation rather than a "going it alone" explanation. It would fit with Oliver, Felicity and Samantha.  

Edited April 26, 2017 by leopardprint

[Sunshine]

Their need to make unilateral decisions seems to be the only thing that BMD and Helix have in common.  

Is Cayden James going to be Arrow's equivalent of Julian Assange?

[statsgirl]

I can accept being able to distinguish one heartbeat from another but I can't buy being able to trace a person based on his or her heartbeat.  They change too much in different situations.

[Buzzyspirit]

It's debatable if Steve's head canon about "some vodka mistakes" inspired the FB in 520 or if the writers/EPs had already thought about it when they briefed the actors for SDCC and Steve just spoil it for us in advance. I go with the latter and I just let my imagination run with how this conversation went ??. 

I agree that the need for the conversation in FB has probably come later in the writers to do list as a way to explain OF disconnect through all the season. The way 520 seems to be designed, with all of Steve scenes with Emily, Olicity in the FB - so much Olicity thank God - I wonder if this isn't some sort of "thank you" to the Olicity fans. I mean we haven't seen the episode but lets be honest, we could have had the FB sex and have them talk about things without them spending half of the episode or more with Olicity. No matter how WM or MG phrase the spoilers, no matter how much I wish things should have been different in 4b and 5a, I already feel greatful for all the Olicity I'm having in these next episodes. 

As regards the question of Felicity understanding Oliver, I trust Steve's description of his character actions rather than any of the EPs. And he has stated more than once that Oliver was in the wrong. He broke the trust in the Olicity relationship and Felicity walking out was justified. 

[Midnight Lullaby]

The "problem" with what Wendy said is that it seems like Felicity will change her opinion on Oliver's behavior, after her own experience of doing things without involving the team, instead of both of them realizing to make a partnership work you have to trust and lean on your partner, like Felicity said initially. I think she was spot on in her speech in 416 and I wouldn't like if what she said became unimportant.

Also not even pointing out how different it is if you are engaged to someone or if that someone is your team mate the writers didn't even make me feel like Felicity was going dark and keeping secrets all that much because the moment her team mates asked her about Helix she told them everything. I don't think she thought she was doing anything that bad all things considered. It felt to me more like they weren't communicating at the time because they aren't that close or weren't busy with other things.

Edited April 26, 2017 by Midnight Lullaby

[leopardprint]

18 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

Also not even pointing out how different it is if you are engaged to someone or if that someone is your team mate the writers didn't even make me feel like Felicity was going dark and keeping secrets all that much because the moment her team mates asked her about Helix she told them everything. I don't think she thought she was doing anything that bad all things considered. It felt to me more like they weren't communicating at the time because they aren't that close or weren't busy with other things.

Yes I agree, she wasn't actively and deliberately keeping information from the team they should have. I view it more like her not telling them what database she hacked or what code she used. Do they really need to know that? If, for example, Helix knew Susan was investigating Oliver and then she kept that to herself, then maybe? She also told Rory about Kojo right away. She made no effort to conceal her actions. Also, I don't see how joining a new team is going it alone but ok show. Basically, I see it like Team Arrow had other urgent priorities reacting to Chase's traps going into 516 and Felicity took the job of finding Chase on herself using the resources at Helix. 

I may be a Felicity apologist, guys, sorry. 

Edited April 26, 2017 by leopardprint

[statsgirl]

I still see it as a parallel to Oliver working with Malcolm Merlyn in s3.  None of his team thought he should but he didn't see a way of winning without Merlyn's help.

Same as Felicity know Curts and Diggle don't approve but she thinks Helix's help is necessary to defeat Chase.

(I can't remember when I've been this excited for an episode.)

[Midnight Lullaby]

9 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

Yes I agree, she wasn't actively and deliberately keeping information from the team they should have. I view it more like her not telling them what database she hacked or what code she used. Do they really need to know that? If, for example, Helix knew Susan was investigating Oliver and then she kept that to herself, then maybe? She also told Rory about Kojo right away. She made no effort to conceal her actions. Also, I don't see how joining a new team is going it alone but ok show. Basically, I see it like Team Arrow had other urgent priorities going into 516 and Felicity took the job of finding Chase on herself. 

I may be a Felicity apologist, guys, sorry. 

I think it's because they wanted to do a dark arc without her going dark because she is the one that brings lightness into the show..until last episode I didn't even feel like Helix was that big of a threat because of the way they were writing the whole thing.

I think the right thing to do was to share what was going on with the team right away because it was relevant to what they were doing, she didn't go to Helix for unrelated issues, but at the same time the moment Rory or Curtis or Dig asked she told them. She didn't say "it doesn't matter, it's over and I'm back in the bunker with you." LOL.

[apinknightmare]

29 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

The "problem" with what Wendy said is that it seems like Felicity will change her opinion on Oliver's behavior, after her own experience of doing things without involving the team, instead of both of them realizing to make a partnership work you have to trust and lean on your partner, like Felicity said initially. I think she was spot on in her speech in 416 and I wouldn't like if what she said became unimportant.

It seems as if - based on what we've seen so far - Oliver did actually take her stance on partnership to heart (to the extent that he can given their current relationship - seems he's applying it in general at this point, since he and Felicity are no longer in a romantic partnership), and at least once has tried to remind her of that. So IDK - regardless of what WM said, it doesn't seem like what Felicity told him about partnership is going to be unimportant, but that she's going to need reminding of why she thought that and why she was right. It seems like ultimately the lesson is going to be that they have to work together and lean on each other - I really don't think Felicity's going to be like, "okay, I understand why you did this, let's keep things from each other from now on!"