Spoiler Discussion Thread

[apinknightmare]

I wonder how this actually plays out on screen, if it's a legit talking point that's going to come to fruition in the show, or if he's going full "all-in, cares deeply"  Wendy.

[Guest]

Haha, I knew this was gonna happen. So instead of Oliver learning a lesson, it has to be Felicity? Miss me with that garbage. 

I hope it comes across differently on screen but I have my doubts. 

[insomniadreams88]

The thing is, you could argue that if Oliver hadn't been kidnapped, he and Felicity probably would have talked about Helix since they put the conversation on pause since it wasn't really the time in 516. Unless they're going to somehow have Oliver and Felicity get back together and engaged and planning a wedding - and have a few months pass and Felicity still not tell him - and then Chase tells Oliver about it, all in the time between Chase leaving Oliver in that cell at the end of 516 and going back in in 517, no ... still not really the same. 

No matter what they do with this storyline, there is no way it's going to be the same as Oliver keeping a kid from the woman he was going to marry, especially since most of this season, they've written Oliver and Felicity as barely coworkers and only seem to have remembered they were together a handful of times - if that. 

[Sunshine]

6 minutes ago, wonderwall said:

There's really a discord between Stephen & Guggeenheim. Stephen is adamant they broke up because of OLIVER's lies and Guggenheim is saying it's because Felicity didn't understand why Oliver lied (which is not true because she specifically said she understood why he kept William from her)...

I don't actually see those things as being different. Oliver lying to Felicity did cause it.  Felicity understands on an intellectual why he thought he had to lie.  I think she's getting ready to understand it on a more basic or gut level.

[Velocity23]

[calliope1975]

I've resigned myself that Felicity understanding Oliver more:

a) won't makes sense in the context of what we've seen onscreen

b) won't make sense with SA's interviews

c) probably piss me off as MG does not operate on human logic terms and it's best to ignore him

d) will ultimately be forgotten by the EPs and characters in, let's say, 2 episodes

e) will have to be fixed by whatever head canon I come up with or read here to make me not rage

[wonderwall]

I just want to get over this breakup drama and move on from that mess.

[Velocity23]

Wasnt the BMD basically Marcs idea. I feel like he is still defending it. And it will play out in the show differently. 

[wonderwall]

1 minute ago, Velocity23 said:

Wasnt the BMD basically Marcs idea. I feel like he is still defending it. And it will play out in the show differently. 

This is exactly like Wendy pushing the whole Felicity is mourning Billy thing but we're actually not seeing that LOL

[Midnight Lullaby]

Just now, Velocity23 said:

Wasnt the BMD basically Marcs idea. I feel like he is still defending it.

I had the same thought. They broke them up in a stupid and frustrating way and he can't accept that the viewers don't understand the brilliance *snort* of their writing.

[Trisha]

15 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

That was always the talking point, even from the beginning I think. Or at least, that was a huge part of it.

WM said more than once that she was going to have a better understanding of Oliver in season 1. So I assumed they were equating his list with Helix, and her getting ruthless about taking down baddies. Her keeping secrets/not trusting her team so that Oliver can say "See! You did the same thing!" has much less appeal. Also, they're not currently planning to spend their lives together. Surely the show can recognize the different circumstances?

[lemotomato]

"Oliver was 100% right to keep the BMD secret" has always been MG's argument, so it's not surprising that he still thinks so. Whether or not it plays out onscreen that way is up in the air, because aside from 415, which MG helped write, any time the BMD was mentioned afterward, Oliver admitted he had lied and treated it like the bad thing it was. 

Edited March 17, 2017 by lemotomato

[Cleanqueen]

I think the show is doing a pretty good job thus far in illustrating that it was his lies that ultimately led to the trust being broken. Oliver didn't know how to be a full partner, felicity told him a part of him will always resort back to the man he was on the island. Felicity this season is learning it her own way that she's meddling in some dark stuff that she's keeping from the people that she loves. it's not a secret child but it's still a secret. All I want is for them to just talk, we didn't really have them talk. They broke up and then oliver dropped vows on her, so no neither of them discussed what happened. And we'll get that in 5x20 so I'm just going to ignore Marc and his nonsense. 

Edited March 17, 2017 by Cleanqueen

[theOAfc]

23 minutes ago, Sunshine said:

 

I have always been under the impression that her arc, especially since SA's spoiler, was about justifying Oliver's lie.

 

Many have been saying that since the start of her "arc" just like many speculated that the main reason she got an instant bf at start of season (with zero time or POV around the "how" and "why so fast") was to justify oliver moving on and have him date Susan.

 To me,this type of writing is so transparent that one can see miles away where a story is heading(or pretty much  figure out the plot points they are gonna more or less pull) and whats the mindset behind every trope they follow. 

[tangerine95]

I do think the show made it clear Oliver was wrong to lie and is aware of it.They tried to make him more sympathetic after all the hate by giving him the sympathy of every character on the show and pretending it was a complicated choice but I don't think they tried to say he wasn't to blame.  He talked about his lies breaking them up, promised in his vows he will never lie to her again, he advised Digg not to make the same mistake and lie to Lyla and just last ep said lies lead to nothing good so I don't get the sense Oliver thinks he was right to lie and would make the same choice. So right now this comes across to me like MG holding on to defending his storyline and I don't think on the show that Felicity will take the blame and Oliver will be justified and free to do it again if he feels he has to. 

[statsgirl]

They've said that Oliver was wrong to lie, and now they're going to make Felicity lie to when Oliver is asking her to talk to him to balance the stakes and it's not the same thing!

I think they actually made Oliver less sympathetic by having everyone agree that he was doing the right thing.  It's pure gaslighting and it just put up the hackles of everyone who thought it was a mistake.

MG is doubling down on a mistake.  I know who that reminds me of (someone MG hates on twitter).

1 hour ago, Sunshine said:

I don't actually see those things as being different. Oliver lying to Felicity did cause it.  Felicity understands on an intellectual why he thought he had to lie.  I think she's getting ready to understand it on a more basic or gut level.

I know we've talked about it a lot but I don't see why Oliver had to lie to Felicity.  His ONS was forcing him to lie to someone and it should have been to her, not his fiance. The oft used excuse, that he had to lie to keep William safe, was proven to be wrong because as soon as Malcolm Merlyn found out, William was in more danger than if Felicity had known and set up surveillance to keep him safe.

 

1 hour ago, insomniadreams88 said:

Remember when the big talking point about Felicity's storyline was that it had nothing to do with Oliver? I feel like now it's "she's going to understand Oliver better." 

Everything inevitably is about Oliver when it comes to Felicity.  Only Diggle is allowed to have his own storyllines.

[leopardprint]

49 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

 

I do think the show made it clear Oliver was wrong to lie and is aware of it.They tried to make him more sympathetic after all the hate by giving him the sympathy of every character on the show and pretending it was a complicated choice but I don't think they tried to say he wasn't to blame.

 

The EPs seem to think they set up a choice between Kid/Felicity so obviously you would pick Kid but what they showed was BM/Felicity so Oliver's decision was stupid and all the audience knows about that character is she slept with her friend's BF, took money from Moira and kept kid a secret from Oliver. Also, I've repeatedly seen the argument that Felicity should have talked to Oliver but he never tried to talk to her and talked to literally everyone but her and got around to her once all the decisions were made. Was she supposed to stop in the middle of looking for the kid and be like "Oliver let's talk about me and my feelings first".

I don't understand why they have Oliver make these stupid decisions for plot but then he can never actually be wrong. 

[insomniadreams88]

So you know how in the 517 promo, Chase has a photo of William? I wouldn't mind it if he tells Oliver he found out about him because of the second check that was apparently erased from existence the moment that flashback ended. 

[tangerine95]

10 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

The EPs seem to think they set up a choice between Kid/Felicity so obviously you would pick Kid but what they showed was BM/Felicity so Oliver's decision was stupid and all the audience knows about that character is she slept with her friend's BF, took money from Moira and kept kid a secret from Oliver. Also, I've repeatedly seen the argument that Felicity should have talked to Oliver but he never tried to talk to her and talked to literally everyone but her and got around to her once all the decisions were made. Was she supposed to stop in the middle of looking for the kid and be like "Oliver let's talk about me and my feelings first".

I don't understand why they have Oliver make these stupid decisions for plot but then he can never actually be wrong. 

Yeah if they wanted an impossible choice then they should have actually made it one. Tho I don't really see a reason Oliver would have to lie about having a kid. I do think they intended for Oliver to be wrong and face consequences but they didn't expect all the hate and next to no sympathy for Oliver after 4. 08 so imo they tried hard to force it which is why we have this mess and constant justifying especially in interviews. 

[Cleanqueen]

I think the flash did it worse, Barry lying and then having be the one to break up with Iris...I don't know what automatically worse than that.

[thegirlsleuth]

Guggenheim has proven that he is contrary enough to double down on storylines that people call him out on--see "forcing Nyssa, a lesbian, to marry Oliver"--so I tend to believe that he would push forward with the storyline that destroyed the show's ratings, credibility, and fanbase just to prove a point.  I hope what ends up on screen is more like Stephen's view than Guggenheim.

[Trisha]

At the end of the day I guess I just kind of assumed that the writers had fully realized how messy the BMD was, and how Oliver's POV literally made no sense (especially after Malcolm found out about the kid). I thought they would do their best to just pretend that storyline didn't happen, since no one -- not shipppers, not comic fans, no one -- liked it, and that when Olicity finally talked about their issues, it would be more of a general "we need to stop having these trust/communication breakdowns" conversation.  We'll see how it all plays out on screen (hopefully it leans closer towards what Amell has been hinting at, with Oliver being the one who needs to be contrite), but I'm surprised they even want to dredge all of this up again. Clearly they will, since William was mentioned in both the last episode and the preview, but why? Which audience are they serving with this?

[tangerine95]

I think they'll try to have it both ways and act like both had something to learn. Something like Oliver will apologize and hopefully learn his lesson about lying so he doesn't do it again and the thing with helix will make Felicity understanding enough to forgive him even tho it isn't really comparable at all to lying to your fiancée about having a kid for no reason other than your lying baby mama told you so. They want this break up to be complicated even tho it isn't really. 

[leopardprint]

12 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

They want this break up to be complicated even tho it isn't really. 

If they wanted the breakup to be emotionally complex it should have been about Oliver rightly or wrongly choosing not to be involved with his child. I mean that's an ongoing frustration I have with this show. Compelling plot points are right there and they always go for nonsensical in a bid for cheap shocks or to avoid the hero looking even slightly non-heroic.

*insert dead horse gif here*

Back on topic, I hope they do explain where Chase is getting his info from (Shado, William...) and not just being ten steps ahead. If we assume it's from Helix and maybe that's what Felicity finds out in the upcoming episode. 

[Chaser]

That was a lot of word salad in JHs interview. 

[way2interested]

Also a whole lot of nothing for anything coming up for her character, which at this point I kind of feel bad that she's doing the promo just to tease...not much.

[Sunshine]

In 5.16 the first thing Felicity sees at Helix  is a prototype of something they were developing at Palmer Tech.  Wonder if anything else was taken that could have helped Helix's technical capabilities and allowed them to grow.  Is this how Felicity had an inadvertent role in creating Helix?  Is this the shocking something she learns in 5.18?  Does she figure out who is behind Helix? Do they have a file on all things Oliver Queen and Team Arrow? Is this how Prometheus is getting his information? 

Assuming 5.20 is a re-birth for Felicity/Olicity I would think she would have to own up to what she's been involved in by then. She's doing murky things but discovering things she was creating for good put to evil use might make her rethink things.

[ComicFan777]

Do you think that Lyla/Diggle issues could be related to Felicity?
Maybe Helix is doing something (with Felicity's help) that interferes with government agencies and ARGUS has to take her in (because Helix set her up for the fall)...now that Lyla is the head of ARGUS, she would be responsible for taking Felicity in and Diggle would obviously be against it because it's Felicity.

[statsgirl]

I really really hope that it's not that Felicity gets in trouble with ARGUS because Oliver was stupid enough to underestimate Prometheus and Felicity has to save his stupid ass.

2 hours ago, tangerine95 said:

They want this break up to be complicated even tho it isn't really. 

I think they want it to be equal fault, even though it isn't. Still it's better than The Flash where it's never Barry's fault in the end.

[Carrie Ann]

Marc, Wendy, please--never speak.

There is absolutely nothing to connect what Felicity is doing with Helix and what Oliver did re: William, aside from the most basic definition of the word "secret." The context, substance, and circumstances are completely different. Oliver's trust in Felicity should really not be damaged by this, at all, IMO. I dearly hope that they will not try to make that direct connection.

If the connection is that when you have lost a lot of people and gone through a lot of trauma, you start making bad and desperate decisions in order to prevent more loss, then...maybe. And there IS some connection between the Helix situation and Oliver's MO of going it alone, keeping people in the dark, walking a dicey moral line, making dangerous decisions, etc., which was Felicity's reasoning in 516 as to why even if she could understand the lie, they still couldn't be together. So if the "understanding" is of that--of why you would try to keep people out of things you are doing, especially when trying to protect them (again, not related to BMD, where Oliver was protecting no one but himself)--and the connection to their trust issues are related to that, then okay. That's what I was expecting. But...Marc is bad and all of his instincts are bad, and I am a little concerned. I hope someone who understands emotions/relationships better writes the episode where all of this is discussed, let's just say that.

Edited March 18, 2017 by Carrie Ann

[LeighAn]

If I've learnt anything this season that what the eps say to sell shit in interviews rarely plays out that way when I watch it on screen so I'm not going to give it any power or get upset over something said until it actually happens on screen that way and if in a way I don't like. Ultimately I still think this is just poor phrasing for Felicity is walking in Olivers shoes which is the underlying theme rightly or wrongly of Felicitys storyline this season. And I guess the writers believe that she can't forgive Oliver until she has a better understanding of Olivers choices. And understanding something doesn't have to equate to accepting something. I personally think that they could have got the forgiveness and reconciliation part out the way without the walking in others shoes but cest la vie this is how we are getting to that part. Just give me the Olicity sexy times past and present and more Olicity screen time in general I'm not hard *shrug*

[statsgirl]

24 minutes ago, Carrie Ann said:

.Marc is bad and all of his instincts are bad, and I am a little concerned. I hope someone who understands emotions/relationships better writes the episode where all of this is discussed, let's just say that.

Wendy Mericle and Beth Schwartz wrote 5x20.

[Mellowyellow]

7 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

Just give me the Olicity sexy times past and present and more Olicity screen time in general I'm not hard *shrug*

Haha this is me! We currently live in hopeful times and I'm too busy squeeing about a potential reunion to let anything else bother me. 

I do worry she'll get arrested in the finale though. Please TPTB don't let them spend the yearly break separated! 

[theOAfc]

8 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Wendy Mericle and Beth Schwartz wrote 5x20.

 

[Trisha]

1 hour ago, statsgirl said:

Wendy Mericle and Beth Schwartz wrote 5x20.

I usually don't mind how Beth handles Olicity moments. She co-wrote the last ep and I think she had a story credit on 401. Hopefully Wendy will be busy with showrunning/giving terrible interviews and Beth will have to do all the heavy lifting. 

[Mellowyellow]

4 minutes ago, Trisha said:

I usually don't mind how Beth handles Olicity moments. She co-wrote the last ep and I think she had a story credit on 401. Hopefully Wendy will be busy with showrunning/giving terrible interviews and Beth will have to do all the heavy lifting. 

That's good to know!

515 was upsetting to me and I think one of the better writers supposedly wrote that one so you never know!

[calliope1975]

I'm not too worried about the writers either because I firmly believe if SA and EBR bring the chemistry, as they always do, they could be reading the Burger King menu and I'd be riveted. 

Am I right that 516 was the adult conversation and 520 is the "adult" bow chicka wow wow conversation?

Edited March 17, 2017 by calliope1975

[Guest]

I think this goes here:

New questions after 520???

[BunsenBurner]

I have another question, could Talia be the head of Helix? My brother and I just watched Bratva and it just made me wonder if she is behind this organization. She was trying to make Oliver take out the bad guys in SC and she made him the GA. 

[way2interested]

1 minute ago, Angel12d said:

New questions after 520???

I took that as the common, "so are they going to get back together???? Are they done for good????" kind of questions that they expect to come up, since we're supposed to be thinking they work great as just partners and all.

[Mellowyellow]

1 minute ago, way2interested said:

I took that as the common, "so are they going to get back together???? Are they done for good????" kind of questions that they expect to come up, since we're supposed to be thinking they work great as just partners and all.

But but but I thought they were getting back together????

[Morrigan2575]

Just now, Mellowyellow said:

But but but I thought they were getting back together????

Probably by 523 or maybe the questions are something totally different. Just wait and see.

[calliope1975]

I actually don't expect them to get back together in 520, but hopefully, they'll be on their way. I DO NOT want them to get back together in Hiatus Offscreenville, but MG is petty and dumb enough to do that so we'll be wondering all summer what's happening with Olicity. 

[way2interested]

Just now, Mellowyellow said:

But but but I thought they were getting back together????

I just meant that 520's going to open the will they/won't they door very blatantly so their reunion (probably come 523) doesn't seemingly come out from no where. Like. this time, they'll want you to wonder when are they are getting back together versus in the beginning of the season when they really didn't want that on people's minds (ex: the partners' quote they kept parroting, 505's "moving on" ending, etc.).  

[Mellowyellow]

2 minutes ago, way2interested said:

I just meant that 520's going to open the will they/won't they door very blatantly so their reunion (probably come 523) doesn't seemingly come out from no where. Like. this time, they'll want you to wonder when are they are getting back together versus in the beginning of the season when they really didn't want that on people's minds (ex: the partners' quote they kept parroting, 505's "moving on" ending, etc.).  

Haha thanks! Fretful shipper here! Anything sets me off!

[tv echo]

After listening to the Agents of Geek podcast review of 516 (posted in Starling City Times thread), which mentioned the possibility of Tom Amandes returning this season, I wonder if 521's "Honor Thy Fathers" will include Noah Kuttler.  I also wonder if Felicity's father will (1) turn out to be the head or founder of Helix, or (2) save Felicity from Helix, or (3) help Felicity take down or take over Helix. But since I haven't heard a peep about Amandes, I guess this isn't likely. 

Edited March 18, 2017 by tv echo

[bijoux]

Not hearing from him doesn't necessarily exclude him. I don't remember any mentions of either Amandes or Noah before he appeared in the final stretch of episodes last year. That wasn't spoiled at all.

[Chaser]

Noah having a connection to Helix would be so perfect. 

[insomniadreams88]

Noah could always be mentioned - maybe Felicity finds something about him at Helix - but isn't seen onscreen? Maybe they could use it to set up something for next season that may or may not happen, depending if they decide to bring him back or not. 

I'd like to see him again but I have a feeling 521 will probably be focused on Oliver, Chase and Talia and their fathers? 

[Chaser]

Yeah, I think that's where it will be focused too. 

I want to hope though. Lol