Spoiler Discussion Thread

[dtissagirl]

13 minutes ago, HighHopes said:

SA also recently said (in that EW interview I think?) that they didn't know that Oliver would end up in Hong Kong at the end of season two when they started the season.

There's a SDCC press room interview with Kreisberg from before S3, I think?, in which he said he and Berlanti knew Oliver would end up in Hong Kong at the end of S2 from when they were pitching the show [or maybe from the pilot, I don't remember exactly]. It's the same interview in which he said they always knew Sara would show up not dead in present time at some point.

Edited February 25, 2017 by dtissagirl
clarification

[wonderwall]

50 minutes ago, theOAfc said:

He also said never say never later when asked about L/O?

I need receipts because I don't recall this ever happening. IIRC he said "never say never" about Felicity in season 2...

[theOAfc]

Quote

"I'm on a show where people come back from the dead," he joked. "I think saying never is probably not the best idea....I doubt it, but I will never say never."

Not sure if thats the con i remember or whether he replied similarly to another one.

http://comicbook.com/2015/08/22/arrows-stephen-amell-on-the-possibility-of-a-romance-with-dinah-/

Basically,he thought it was over but couldnt talk for sure exactly because he works in a show where weird stuff happen. Something tells me if you had asked Amell a year ago about a potential new BC he would have replied similarly. 

[AyChihuahua]

58 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

I'm actually starting to wonder if the mea culpa after this season is gonna veer into "the network wanted us to try different things, but unfortunately it didn't resonate too well with the audience", i.e. the network told them to stall 'ship, the studio forced seventeen masks on them, and some mystery entity forced Oliver to stop pooping altogether.

Could it please also include something along the lines of "Marc deeply appreciates his time on Arrow, but he has decided to focus on LoT, where he feels his skills are best put to use." 

[HighHopes]

1 minute ago, AyChihuahua said:

Could it please also include something along the lines of "Marc deeply appreciates his time on Arrow, but he has decided to focus on LoT, where he feels his skills are best put to use." 

But that would leave us with Wendy, and I don't think she's that much better than MG. Maybe they both can leave and they can bring in some show-runners who know what they are doing? Although if both MG and WM leave I fear that Bam-Bam would somehow get promoted to show-runner, and then the show would just be Oliver punching air for 42 minutes. 

[insomniadreams88]

2 minutes ago, AyChihuahua said:

Could it please also include something along the lines of "Marc deeply appreciates his time on Arrow, but he has decided to focus on LoT, where he feels his skills are best put to use." 

And "WM won't be doing any more interviews because we can see how you'd be confused reading them"?

[theOAfc]

1 minute ago, HighHopes said:

I fear that Bam-Bam would somehow get promoted to show-runner, and then the show would just be Oliver punching air for 42 minutes

LOL. Who's gonna bet half of reddit would find Arrow a masterpiece if he did that?

[statsgirl]

1 hour ago, AyChihuahua said:

She didn't, though. The EPs explicitly stated they always planned to bring Sara in, but they didn't know whether she'd be good or bad (and if bad, probably Ravager, which is what Isabel ended up as...i.e., no plan). And I don't mean they didn't know at the beginning of S1...I mean they said they didn't know at the beginning of S2!

 

1 hour ago, dtissagirl said:

Kreisberg was the one who wrote the married GA/BC comics, so yes. He's the one with the soft spot for that relationship [Cupid was his creation specifically to disrupt GA/BC, even], while Berlanti is the dude who paired up Joey and Pacey on DC despite EVERYONE in production being terrified of going there.

I wonder what Arrow would be like if GB had more time to spend on it than a passing  glance and an idea for the crossover.

One thing you can say about AK in terms of how he handles male/female relationships, he makes MG look like Shakespeare.

Quote

The EPs explicitly stated they always planned to bring Sara in, but they didn't know whether she'd be good or bad (and if bad, probably Ravager, which is what Isabel ended up as...i.e., no plan). And I don't mean they didn't know at the beginning of S1...I mean they said they didn't know at the beginning of S2!

I meant that they didn't know CL would make Sara as effective, and affective, as she did and thereby a fan favourite.

I've always had a hard time believing that they didn't know all that long in s2 whether it was Sara or Isabel who would be bad.  They may not have known early on when they were planning to bring Sara back but by ep 6, the one in Russia, Isabel had become irredeemable.  So they must have known by then.

23 minutes ago, AyChihuahua said:

Could it please also include something along the lines of "Marc deeply appreciates his time on Arrow, but he has decided to focus on LoT, where he feels his skills are best put to use." 

Nooooo!  Don't kill LoT for me, right now it's the best of the four shows.  Phil Klemmer seems to be the only one other than GB who can balance a large cast and make every character count.  Nate is still too Gary Stu for me but miles better than WD or Curtis.

[Cleanqueen]

he said there was one woman in oliver's life and that was true for almost two seasons and then Laurel got killed off, so dude never lied. I am more inclined to trust Stephen about these things than the EP's. 

I could see people really pushing this oliver/Dinah train had Oliver not been with Susan this year. Susan is the stall for Olicity, media is still asking about olicity while Oliver and Susan are a thing and these EP's keep coming up with excuses on why olicity isn't back together yet so imagine the hoops they have to jump over to justify anything after an Oliver and Dinah romance. Theres literally more buzz about a Dinah/Diggle relationship than O/D.

And yes like others have said the fact that Natalie only highlighted the fact that Stephen said their show is their show means there isn't much else otherwise she would've milked it. She moved on to a topic about a suit that isn't brand new information.

[Midnight Lullaby]

21 hours ago, calliope1975 said:

This bothers me greatly though I don't know that I can exactly explain why. I think it comes down to everyone in the SuperFlarrowverse having a secret identity. I'm sure it would open up new story lines (that will be done poorly) but I don't know that I ultimately see an upside when everyone, everywhere would know exactly when/who to target including everyone OQ knows and works with. Oliver Queen is not Tony Stark, not even close, and I just, ughh, this seems like a terribad idea. 

I do think 100% that this is where we're headed, though. 

The idea bothers me because Arrow is supposedly on the realistic side compared to the other superhero shows so I expect sort of realistic consequences. At least about the big things. If he revealed his identity do they simply forget about the people he killed? Also there's season 3 where they made Roy sacrifice his life because Oliver being outed meant being killed in jail..

I don't think I'll ever buy Oliver outing himself and being seen as a hero by everyone because he has often worked in a grey area.

[Mellowyellow]

You guys must have had a field day with Ray in s3. I'm so sad I wasn't around for it!

When Felicity caught the bouquet did anyone freak out she was marrying Ray?

[weathered1]

1 hour ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

The idea bothers me because Arrow is supposedly on the realistic side compared to the other superhero shows so I expect sort of realistic consequences. At least about the big things. If he revealed his identity do they simply forget about the people he killed? Also there's season 3 where they made Roy sacrifice his life because Oliver being outed meant being killed in jail..

I don't think I'll ever buy Oliver outing himself and being seen as a hero by everyone because he has often worked in a grey area.

That's exactly how I look at this possibility (probability?). He's done good things as GA, but I don't think those deeds totally counterbalance or outweigh the actions he's taken over the years that fall firmly into that grey area or worse. There would be a lot of people who would stand against him because of that and not consider him to be a hero. Revealing his identity would cause a lot more harm than good, imo, and it's really not something that I want to see. At all. 

re: the other topic being discussed, I know people have their set views on the statements we get from SA and the nincompoops in charge, and both main sides of it - those who think the words can be believed and those who are doubtful - have evidence to back them up. After watching this show since day one, I've veered from the former into the latter category, and now I'm firmly in the "I'll believe it when I see it" camp. When forces outside the show itself interfere; when the showrunners and writers do often find themselves distracted and seemingly winging it (at least, that's how it appears); when what we see on the screen doesn't make sense, doesn't receive positive feedback, but they double down on it and drag it out interminably (one example would be Susan) . . . I, personally, can't put much stock in what's said. 

If I were going to play devil's advocate here, all I would add is that I wouldn't expect SA to say anything different, not when they're working at integrating Dinah at a relatively slow pace compared to how other characters have been shoehorned in over the years, and not when, as far as the viewers are supposed to be concerned, Oliver is all about Susan at the moment (just typing that makes the contents of my stomach rise in protest). 

Going back to the Susan debacle, I know that many think she's a ship stall for Olicity and that may well be the case. I'm not sure the writers look at her that way, though, simply because if that was the point, it could have been accomplished in any number of other ways: Malone and the aftermath of his death, Oliver maybe going on random dates with random women he randomly ran into the course of being mayor (whenever he randomly chose to do that), and the list goes on. I tend to think they're going to twist themselves into storytelling pretzels - gee, that's something new and different - to give her some kind of actual purpose, and I do think that will tie into Prometheus, Talia, Russia, or some combination thereof.

[AyChihuahua]

4 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

You guys must have had a field day with Ray in s3. I'm so sad I wasn't around for it!

When Felicity caught the bouquet did anyone freak out she was marrying Ray?

No, we knew the whole point was to set up a spinoff, and very few people expected her to go with him. The whole setup was very transparent.

[LeighAn]

"Integrating Dinah at a relatively slow pace"

Sorry but they resolved her entire tragic back story in one episode shoved her on the team in one episode and now four episodes in she's everybody best friend who they trust enough to have intimate heart to hearts with, she's got a job on the force, an apartment, a costume and a code name and the writing treats her like she's always been on the Team.

How is that slow? If anything it seems like they are expediating and rushing her on the show because they don't want to spend too much time going through a hero journey arch.

[AyChihuahua]

5 minutes ago, weathered1 said:

When forces outside the show itself interfere; when the showrunners and writers do often find themselves distracted and seemingly winging it (at least, that's how it appears); when what we see on the screen doesn't make sense, doesn't receive positive feedback, but they double down on it and drag it out interminably (one example would be Susan) . . . I, personally, can't put much stock in what's said. 

Yeah, if someone with power has told them to stick BC/GA together, it'll happen, even if it's absolutely stupid and not supported in the narrative. Alternatively if they're worried about the ratings/Netflix views, they may stick O/F back together. IMO the narrative means nothing at this point. NOTHING. Just last episode..."Gunz 'R Bad (Except Sometimes Not)." This episode, "Gunz 'R Supes Cool!" Felicity has forgotten she dated the cop and Oliver has forgotten he killed a dude to keep his secret a few months ago. It's all chaos and entropy.

[Thundercatmary]

41 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

Why can't people just be happy that so far the evidence suggests the show doesn't seem to be going down that road? Why not wait to freak out when the evidence does actually suggest the worst?

For me I would love to be in this kind of mindset, unfortunately the writers have lost my trust completely so I'm forever skeptical. 

I mean I wouldn't say i'm freaking out, and I do have hope this show can get back to what I love (OTA, Delicity and Olicity) but again i'm skeptical it will actually happen.

That said I enjoy all the talk on this board so I'm not going anywhere. :)

Edited February 26, 2017 by Thundercatmary

[Mellowyellow]

Is the Olicity conversation happening in 515 or 516?

[statsgirl]

28 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

You guys must have had a field day with Ray in s3. I'm so sad I wasn't around for it!

When Felicity caught the bouquet did anyone freak out she was marrying Ray?

I wasn't afraid she'd marry him, I was just angry that they ruined the season and especially the Dyla wedding I had been so eager for, by all the stupid shenanigans instead of giving me enjoyable things on the show.

Much like this season.

I think 515 is the Olicity conversation. Also the one where everyone knows except Oliver

26 minutes ago, weathered1 said:

Going back to the Susan debacle, I know that many think she's a ship stall for Olicity and that may well be the case. I'm not sure the writers look at her that way, though, simply because if that was the point, it could have been accomplished in any number of other ways: Malone and the aftermath of his death, Oliver maybe going on random dates with random women he randomly ran into the course of being mayor (whenever he randomly chose to do that), and the list goes on. I tend to think they're going to twist themselves into storytelling pretzels - gee, that's something new and different - to give her some kind of actual purpose, and I do think that will tie into Prometheus, Talia, Russia, or some combination thereof.

They're using Susan for both purposes, to stall Olicity and for some unknown (and inexplicable) reason.  I'm afraid she's going to be the reason Oliver declares himself to be the Green Arrow.

Random women wouldn't be a sufficient ship stall since he could stop dating them at any time and get back together with Felicity. They need something more permanent to justify them staying apart, and I guess they're not going to use Oliver killing Malone to do it.

[lemotomato]

43 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

You guys must have had a field day with Ray in s3. I'm so sad I wasn't around for it!

When Felicity caught the bouquet did anyone freak out she was marrying Ray?

If you get bored and want to go back and read the Raylicity discussion on the board, it starts around page 49 of the relationships thread. It's really interesting to skip through the posts back then because of how similar the complaints/fears were to this season-- spec of GA/BC romance happening, comments about how the stalling of Olicity was forced and unnatural, debate about how the love interest stall was inappropriate or not, complaints that OTA wasn't getting any screentime.

When Felicity caught the bouquet there was a lot of spec-- not here on the board, mostly on tumblr-- about an Olicity wedding.

[LeighAn]

I was on board the Olicity wedding theory until the whole Nyssa/Felicity switcharoo theory in 3x22. And remember the 100th wedding theory :'( 

Memories.

It'll happen dammit!

[calliope1975]

29 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

I was on board the Olicity wedding theory until the whole Nyssa/Felicity switcharoo theory in 3x22. And remember the 100th wedding theory :'( 

I will never forgive TPTB from depriving me of a 100th ep Olicity wedding. Never! 

I think I'd like whatever secret they're keeping from Oliver to be kept from him for awhile. Mostly because I'm not his biggest fan at the moment. The problem, for me, is that almost all conflicts and resolutions, including Prometheus, likely won't be done in a satisfying way. I need to stop getting my hopes up with this show. 

[Cleanqueen]

But why would bigger powers ask them to force a GA/BC romance now when they never gave a damn before that. At the end of the day its all about dollars and cents, olicity is $$$$ everyone and their mama knows that. WB was out there including an olicity cut in their season 4 DVD and ending it with when he puts the ring on her hand essentially saying that these two will come back to being happy and married soon. Nobody gives a damn about a GA/BC endgame unless ppl think the TPTB are concerned about 24k-30k month comic book buyers. Like we can understand them having the character and IP visible on the show but beyond that I don't think they care what the writers do with her. They checked off all the boxes for her that she needs to be the ultimate BC and now they can just be on their merry way. 

[wonderwall]

28 minutes ago, calliope1975 said:

I will never forgive TPTB from depriving me of a 100th ep Olicity wedding. Never! 

 

Yes but didn't they make it up to you with Felicity punching Laurel

[Cleanqueen]

1 hour ago, LeighAn said:

I was on board the Olicity wedding theory until the whole Nyssa/Felicity switcharoo theory in 3x22. And remember the 100th wedding theory :'( 

Memories.

It'll happen dammit!

I was honestly excited for the wedding to be on the 100th episode but now that we know that the 100th episode  was the crossover  episode I am so happen it didn't happen. I want their wedding to now be small and intimate as possible 

[calliope1975]

10 minutes ago, wonderwall said:

Yes but didn't they make it up to you with Felicity punching Laurel

Only slightly. ? I would have rather not seen KC on Arrow again, but I'll take what I can get. 

This is a random question that just popped in my head while thinking about who's going to be headed to the island with Oliver. Have all the graves on Lian Yu been identified? 

[wonderwall]

Just now, calliope1975 said:

This is a random question that just popped in my head while thinking about who's going to be headed to the island with Oliver. Have all the graves on Lian Yu been identified? 

I don't think so? It can't be Poppy right? It's also entirely possible the person he goes back to the island with dies..

[way2interested]

Just now, calliope1975 said:

This is a random question that just popped in my head while thinking about who's going to be headed to the island with Oliver. Have all the graves on Lian Yu been identified? 

Not technically, but I'm pretty sure the 4 are supposed to be Yao-Fe, Shado, Robert Queen, and Poppy.

[BkWurm1]

2 hours ago, LeighAn said:

Yep because people are more interested in being right then breathing a sigh of relief that the thing they've dreaded doesn't look like it's happening at this stage.

She hasn't hooked up with Oliver, she hasn't been romantically teased with Oliver, there's no love triangle developing, she's not a breakout success character being positioned for the female lead, she's not even a huge presence on screen. And the EPs aren't pushing her as any of those things.

Could that still change? Yes it's possible but we just had Stephen repeat the whole it's our show not the comics in the SAME interview where he talked up Olicity and mending fences and this was after Marc told people to chill their jets and after the show hasn't put as much thought or attention into Dinah then the fandom gives them credit for. So it's probably not in any immediate plans.

Why can't people just be happy that so far the evidence suggests the show doesn't seem to be going down that road? Why not wait to freak out when the evidence does actually suggest the worst?

I think before Tinah was actually on screen there was a lot more reason to be concerned about how they were going to use her and what it could mean for Olicity and yeah, things COULD change, but usually this show starts as it means to go. (Apart from when things fall apart and have to be redone) If the edict was to go GA/BC, then even if they weren't ready to let go of Oliver and Susan yet for plot, they would be building up O/T with friendship and loyalty and flirtation and looks and touches.  

We just haven't had any of that.  So for now at least, I'm not going to worry about what if.  At least not until I have a real reason.  

[Morrigan2575]

5 minutes ago, way2interested said:

Not technically, but I'm pretty sure the 4 are supposed to be Yao-Fe, Shado, Robert Queen, and Poppy.

Yes, one of the Arrow Tie-In Novels showed Poppy as one of the graves. Which of course amused the crap out of me since there was such terror on this board about Poppy being in S5/Russia and a big time LI for S5 past/present).

[Velocity23]

Some shoes regarding s4 still haven't been eaten yet though ...

 

Also

[Chaser]

7 minutes ago, Velocity23 said:

Some shoes regarding s4 still haven't been eaten yet though ...

 

Also

Oh that song...

So whose POV? My first thought was Oliver but than all that talk of Felicity getting a better understanding of Oliver...

[statsgirl]

So, is Oliver going to go to Felicity, or Felicity to Oliver?

SA said that last season Felicity walked away and Oliver let her.  That makes me hope that this time Oliver will be going to her.... if he ever remembers that they once loved each other.

[Thundercatmary]

I know nothing about that song, can anyone fill me in? :D

[Chaser]

http://azlyrics.biz/billy-joel-december-song-until-you-come-to-me-lyrics/

here are the lyrics

Edited February 26, 2017 by Chaser

[insomniadreams88]

The real big question is: Will Diggle and Felicity actually talk to one another beyond "what did you do?"? They do have a conversation coming up as teased in that quote about him, Oliver and Curtis(?) talking to her, but will that be it for the season? 

I also feel like I won't get a Felicity/Lance conversation like I've been hoping for.

[AyChihuahua]

6 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

The real big question is: Will Diggle and Felicity actually talk to one another beyond "what did you do?"? They do have a conversation coming up as teased in that quote about him, Oliver and Curtis(?) talking to her, but will that be it for the season? 

I also feel like I won't get a Felicity/Lance conversation like I've been hoping for.

Well, from the recent history of Delicity/DR overselling Delicity (I realize this isn't a DR quote, though), it'll be: 

Digg to Felicity: You cool?

Felicity: Yeah.

[End scene.]

28 minutes ago, Velocity23 said:

Some shoes regarding s4 still haven't been eaten yet though ...

 

Also

LOL, so many S5 "shoes" have not been eaten yet.

Edited February 26, 2017 by AyChihuahua

[insomniadreams88]

2 minutes ago, AyChihuahua said:

Well, from the recent history of Delicity/DR overselling Delicity (I realize this isn't a DR quote, though), it'll be: 

Digg to Felicity: You cool?

Felicity: Yeah.

[End scene.]

Yeah I'm going to have low expectations for now. And really hope their conversation includes Diggle thanking Felicity. Because that should have happened in 512. 

[Velocity23]

4 minutes ago, AyChihuahua said:

LOL, so many S5 "shoes" have not been eaten yet.

But did they promise to eat the shoe ... 

[lemotomato]

4 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

right now I think all there is to support it is speculation and it's pretty much the same stuff since I saw the Tina sides.

And the Tina side that fueled the speculation turned out to be a scene with Digg.

[statsgirl]

It says a lot about this season that the spoiler of a conversation between Diggle and Felicity is cause for rejoicing.

[HighHopes]

I'm not going to put too much stock into MGs choices of songs. Maybe I'm remembering wrong but I don't think they ever amount to anything or actual reflect where O/F are do they?

[statsgirl]

I lost faith in MG's Billy Joel songs s3 when the lyrics to This Is Your Sword had such Olicity potential and it turned out just to be about Oliver becoming Al Sahim.

Quote

i am so sorry that i bothered you
now i know why you have to hide
i didn’t know what you were going through
all i could see was my own side

i will stay away
i will let you be
i won’t say a word until you come to me
until you come to me
until you come to me

So much Olicity potential...

[Cleanqueen]

I guess from the lyrics its showing that Oliver knows something is off with her but is afraid to ask like we've been seeing in the past episodes. I guess it all comes to a head this week when he's ready to confront her about it because she does something to save his life. 

[AyChihuahua]

15 minutes ago, Trisha said:

This. I actually stopped reading some of the positivity Tumblrs because they were so dismissive of all the "negative" spec in 5A, and then most of that spec came true. I don't think 3 episodes of NuBC gives me enough info to try to determine what direction they are taking that character, but I also don't think it's borrowing trouble to be concerned about it. Personally I'm back on the 'Olicity is heading for a reunion' train (based on SA and MG's sudden positivity, as well as how careful they were in trying to keep Felicity's hands relatively clean during the Susan takedown), but that doesn't mean I'm completely convinced Dinah will never be a threat. 

I do think that the .5 during sweeps, which I cannot imagine they expected, may shake them up. Whether it shakes them up in what I'd consider a positive direction or not, who knows. But yeah yeah, "ratings don't matter," sure, Steve...still can't imagine them liking that. 

[Mellowyellow]

3 minutes ago, AyChihuahua said:

As an aside re the song choice, remember when we (fully including me) spent days convinced that "This is Your Sword" meant there was going to be a great O/F turnabout in 3.22? And then he married Nyssa and fake-murdered Felicity and his whole team in that episode? 

Good times.

But then she flew in the Atom Suit, saved his ass and they drove off into the sunset!!!!!!!!

I NEED something equally as awesome in s5!!!!!

[ladylaw99]

Personally I am not seeing anything between Oliver and Dinah, she is in the background where I like her and the other noobs.  I have no faith in these writers so I am on the "I will believe it when I see it".  

[AyChihuahua]

Just now, Mellowyellow said:

But then she flew in the Atom Suit, saved his ass and they drove off into the sunset!!!!!!!!

I NEED something equally as awesome in s5!!!!!

323, though. Not 322, This is Your Sword, which had some seemingly very positive lyrics upon which Guggie took a big steaming dump.

[Chaser]

Did MG ever claim "This is Your Sword" was about Olicity?

"Vienna" was S3 Olicity. They drive off into the sunset at the end so I would say that was pretty accurate.

I think "You're My Home" was the S4 Olicity song .... or the premiere Olicity song? Accurate depends on how you look at.

Edited February 26, 2017 by Chaser

[lemotomato]

2 minutes ago, Chaser said:

Did MG ever claim "This is Your Sword" was about Felicity?

"Vienna" was S3 Olicity. They drive off into the sunset at the end so I would say that was pretty accurate.

I think "You're My Home" was the S4 Olicity song .... or the premiere Olicity song? Accurate depends on how you look at.

No, MG never said "This is Your Sword" was about Olicity. He was asked to pick Billy Joel songs to describe episodes.

"You're my Home" was his answer to someone asking him for a song to describe Olicity in season 4. "Until You Come to Me" is also his answer to someone asking specifically for a song to describe Olicity.

[Cleanqueen]

3 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

You're right nothing suggested OS was going to happen except the fact that they had an already established sexual relationship, were shown to be emotionally bonding in both present and flash backs and oh Sara telling him in the flash backs that she was the one who was in love with him first and was going to ask him out before Laurel interfered.

Nothing suggested the 2x23 ILU except that they had thrown shipper moments for Olicity in basically every episode leading up to it. 

But sure you do you.

I wasn't even in the fandom and a casual viewer and I saw Oliver and Sarah from a mile away. I wasn't even shocked by 2x13. And that ILY was literally foreshadowed in basically every other episode in season 2 starting with 2x06. What shocked everyone was how it was executed not that it actually happened.