Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[Genki]

When SA said about Oliver getting his humanity back and having to decide how much of that he wants back, does he want QC back, does he want to love someone, I kind of got the impression that fighting for QC and fighting for Felicity would mirror each other. I thought what Oliver says walking down the steps after loosing QC to Ray was really important too. "I couldn't make time for QC last year. That's selfish. That's something the old me would have done." So combining that Oliver is trying to be better he's trying not to be the ass that asks Felicity to wait for him because that's selfish but knowing that he can't lose focus by loving her right now he has to let her go - let the company and her go. Which plays into what others have said about Ray being perfect on paper for both of them.

 

I think this is totally what the writers are doing, I think the Flashback in 3.02, where he has to fool Tommy, is meant to show the 1st time, when Oliver did the whole "I need to protect Person X, so I can't be Oliver Queen". 

 

 

Oliver is only interested in relationships that he can have but that don't take away his absolute focus. He knows he can have relationship with Thea and still be the Arrow because he did it for 2 years. He believes the reason the relationship with Thea didn't work out was because of his lies not that he wasn't emotionally available to her which I'm sure will come up again this year.  Thea and the emotions he feels for her fit into a nice little box. The love he feels for her is simple it's not all consuming like a romantic love. And actually Thea was pretty easy for him to handle during season two.

 

I'm not sure I agree with this, I think I agree with @Ceylon5's and Oliver is moving towards becoming Oliver with the only person who he can try with right now, Thea.

 

I'm hopeful it leads to more truths between them, since he will be putting an end to the paternalistic BS that is "I'm lying to protect you". And especially hopeful, a shift with this attitude towards Thea means a shift in his views on his relationship with Felicity. 

I'm going to be so upset if 3.05 still has the current distance between Oliver an Felicity, Especially when finding out about her ex and meeting her mother

 

Oliver is one of the most selfish people, that needs to be more selfish. 

 

What I mean is, he does take Team Arrow for granted at times, he make decisions about his relationships with people in his life that, take away their own agency. He compartmentalises so much that he can watch a woman he is in love with cry her eyes out repeatedly and not reach out to her, when she really needs some comfort. But the person Oliver denies the most is Oliver Queen.

 

Wanting the family business is selfish 

 

 

Wanting to have a relationship, with Felicity makes him lose focus on the mission, and the mission come first, anything else is selfish

 

Wanting a family of his own like Diggle is selfish, danger blah blah...

 

So bringing Thea back after watching Sara die is finally Oliver being selfish in the right way (but he needs to lay some more truth bombs on her, and I hope their relationship moves int he right direction)

[Danny Franks]

 

And in the writers defense (*whines* I really don't want to defend them)  Helena, McKenna, and Sara left Oliver so with those relationships the women were the ones with the tropes (Bad girl can't get the hero, This isn't going to work out so why even try, and I can't be the person you need - I'm to damaged. Respectively). The only two who have had Hero tropes thrown at them were Laurel and Felicity. Laurel got Superheroes stay single, she can't know my identity and someone else loves you better than I can. Felicity got because of the life that I lead, it's to dangerous, superheroes stay single and coming up you'll be happier/safer with someone else.  So it's not much consolation but at least the writers are moving from one trope to another and not just having Oliver dig his heels in and say NO I can't. It's a process. It's annoying but al least we are moving.

 

But that is what Oliver is doing. He's just coming up with slightly different rationales for it, each time. The way he explains it to the poor, simple minded girl who just doesn't understand how important it is for him to be miserable might alter a little, but the root cause is always the same. 'I can't be happy because then I'd be happy. And if I'm happy, I can't be miserable and pathologically driven to right wrongs'. It's pretty much the same rationale Batman has used for decades.

 

Like I say, if it's a pathological need, then the show would do better to address that and actually show Oliver trying to understand it and overcome it. Instead, they seem to want to glamorise it as something noble and brave, and worthy of all the manpain in the world. It's something I find inherently immature in the writing (not just of this, but of quite a lot of stories, in various mediums). This idea that the hero being miserable and in pain will be 'cool' and it will make him better than those shallow, happy people out there. It's such a teenage outlook on life, to me. And it's not like I haven't occasionally wanted outside validation for my own miserable thoughts and feelings, but I still think it's a childish way to behave.

 

Oliver's damaged, but he just nurses that damage, instead of ever trying to actually heal it. These sporadic attempts at healing are always reversed immediately, so he can retreat into his safe emo angst, with only his bow and the darkness (of his heart and his lair) to keep him company. To me, that just gets boring. It's past time for him to grow up. And I've lost patience with the glacial pace of the process he's made. He's sabotaged himself too many times now for me to care.

[statsgirl]

 

From the Corto Maltese thread:

 

I actually thought Oliver's exasperation had more to do with him not being in the mood for jokes when the lead didn't pan out in trying to find Sara's killer.  Diggle told a joke a second later, and he had pretty much the same reaction.

This seems to be Oliver's default mode -- when things aren't going the way he wants, he turns into a jerk. He does it with Diggle, he did it with Moira (rejected her for the Malcolm secret when he was keeping an even bigger one), he does it with Felicity and I think he may have done it with Sara too.

 

Now I know things were rough during those five years and before that he was a spoiled douche but it's a really crappy way to act to someone you supposedly love.  Diggle is strong enough, and manly enough, and mature enough to let it roll over him. But how many times can he do that to Felicity and still expect her to hold out her arms for him?

 

I wonder what Thea will do when he tries it with her.

They aren't.  I'm using YouTube clips to count:

What I'm worried about is not that they are setting up an Oliver/Laurel romance right now (it's too soon since he's supposed to be in love with  Felicity (which is also why the The Calm numbers are an outlier) but that they are setting up Laurel to be the de facto leading lady (with a possible Oliver relationship in s4 or 5).  Laurel screentime, whether alone, with Oliver or with someone else, is something I'm not interested in so the idea that she's going to get even more is a turn-off for me.

 

 

No, I don't think he ever wanted to continue in the family business. When he went to Laurel, he was looking for a way to get out of it.

 

What I think is selfish is using The Mission as an excuse to get out of the messy hard work that is Life.

Edited October 24, 2014 by statsgirl

[NumberCruncher]

Oh I agree they can't keep doing the will they won't they version specific to superheroes but I think part of the problem is they are rebooting the love interest from season one with a different partner. Felicity is getting some of the exact same story beats Laurel got in season one, the hospital hall way scene where the love interest asks the hero to tell her/Tommy that he doesn't love her, turning a cold shoulder to push her away to protect himself and her. It seems more repetitive than it is because they had a very specific idea of how they wanted the main love relationship to go in this show and Laurel/Oliver not working out caused them to have to redo certain scenes.

 

And in the writers defense (*whines* I really don't want to defend them)  Helena, McKenna, and Sara left Oliver so with those relationships the women were the ones with the tropes (Bad girl can't get the hero, This isn't going to work out so why even try, and I can't be the person you need - I'm to damaged. Respectively). The only two who have had Hero tropes thrown at them were Laurel and Felicity. Laurel got Superheroes stay single, she can't know my identity and someone else loves you better than I can. Felicity got because of the life that I lead, it's to dangerous, superheroes stay single and coming up you'll be happier/safer with someone else.  So it's not much consolation but at least the writers are moving from one trope to another and not just having Oliver dig his heels in and say NO I can't. It's a process. It's annoying but al least we are moving.

ITA. At least the producers recognized Oliver and Laurel weren't working and did something about it, even if it meant rehashing some of the same beats with Oliver and Felicity. The repetition isn't bothering me because they're fixing what was clearly a big mistake the first time.

I also don't care about the love tropes thing as much as the love triangle because as others have mentioned, the triangle usually ends up destroying one or more of the characters involved. That's my main hang up, too. Due to the huge amount of shows that have been produced since the invention of TV, practically every relationship ends up becoming a trope of some kind--it's damn near unavoidable--but a triangle is just a whole different level of suck. Someone has to lose and the back-and-forth usually results in forced OOC moments and inconsistency. It's a breeding ground for bad writing and it's lazy, but we're stuck in it so the question is how can the characters make it out with as minimal damage as possible. So far, it hasn't been that bad, IMO, but I reserve the right to scream bloody murder when/if it gets bad.

Edited October 24, 2014 by NumberCruncher

[Angel12d]

Can I just say that I found that a really weird, creepy thing to say to his sister?  What does that even mean?

 

And, yes, it's a stupid plot inconsistency.  I'm not sure whether to bother blaming Oliver or just go directly to the source and say that it was just crappy writing.

 

ETA:  UNLESS (just had a thought) - what if Oliver's whole "I must be Arrow, not Oliver" thing, which happened before Sara's death actually got blown out of the water by Sara's death.  What if he's now realised that he does want to be Oliver (hence the "I don't want to die down here"), but because he's just torpedoed his relationship with Felicity and lost QC, the only thing he could think to do that might still work is repair his relationship with his sister.

 

Haha, it is a bit of a weird thing to say to his sister, I admit. I saw it as a bit of a parallel to what Oliver said the previous episode "I don't want to die down here" and how that links to Felicity saying she didn't want to wait with him to die and she wanted more from life. That's why it struck me as odd. He easily could have said the same thing to Felicity because if they're not together - if they're not with the people they love - they're not really alive and what's the point of it all? 

 

I totally agree with your ETA though. Maybe getting his relationship with Thea back on track is the first step - the most important step because she is his family and if he has his family by his side, the rest will come later.

 

Maybe because he's still lying to Thea -- she doesn't know he's the Arrow yet so he can still play Oliver Queen, big brother. But Felicity knows everything about him -- there's nothing compartmentalized. I think that freaks Oliver out. When Oliver said, "I'm scared what would happen if I allow myself to be Oliver Queen," overtly he's saying he has to be the Arrow and nothing else -- but allowing himself to be a normal person that's loved completely for who they are -- the good and the bad -- Oliver doesn't know how to do that or accept that into his life. With Thea, he's still playing a role -- he's not completely who he is. 

 

Good point. He was willing to tell Thea the complete truth about himself though, before Diggle convinced him otherwise which shows he still wants to be Oliver Queen - feels on some level that he can be himself with Thea. I'll be interested to see what happens when she does find out the whole truth because then there really is nowhere for him to hide.

 

I think for Oliver loving Felicity and feeling happy with her softens him and distracts him from protecting the city. Loving her prevents him from putting her into a box and being able to put that box on self in his mind during Arrow activities.  He was suppose to be focused on taking down a bad guy in the sewer during "The Calm" but instead he was thinking about the date to the extent that Quentin noticed something different about him. That loss of focus almost cost Felicity her life and did get other people killed. Felicity has never let him turn himself off emotionally. She's going to want all of Oliver emotionally invested in a relationship and he's afraid of screwing it up and ruining their relationship, but he has to stop it because in his mind bad things happen when he let's Oliver Queen make decisions.

 

Oliver is only interested in relationships that he can have but that don't take away his absolute focus. He knows he can have relationship with Thea and still be the Arrow because he did it for 2 years. He believes the reason the relationship with Thea didn't work out was because of his lies not that he wasn't emotionally available to her which I'm sure will come up again this year.  Thea and the emotions he feels for her fit into a nice little box. The love he feels for her is simple it's not all consuming like a romantic love. And actually Thea was pretty easy for him to handle during season two. He would show up and talk to her, see her around at Verdant, have dinners with her and generally be her brother. Felicity and his feelings for her are never going to be simple or easy - not for someone as damaged as Oliver with no track record of a successful relationship.

 

Or I'm over thinking this and the writers just needed an excuse for him to go get Thea to bring her into the storyline.

 

I don't think you're over thinking this at all! I agree with all of this. I do think Oliver is good at compartmentalizing most of the time, and it's interesting that it's Felicity who causes him to lose that ability and focus. It's just interesting that he feels he can begin to move forward with Thea but can't even consider moving forward with someone he's actually in love with. Does he honestly think he can just get by in life without that kind of love or relationship? I suppose that's the crux of his journey but it's definitely a unique look into his psyche. 

Edited October 24, 2014 by Angel12d

[ostentatious]

See, I don't think Oliver had any intention whatsoever of letting her go. He still doesn't. Note that literally none of Oliver's plans to keep Felicity safe have ever once included the very obvious option of ending their nighttime activities. He doesn't want her going anywhere. And it hadn't occurred to him that she might, and it isn't IMO because he takes her for granted. It's because HE isn't going anywhere. He isn't leaving her. He is, in his way, committed and faithful to her. He is going to feel so wronged if she dates someone else.

Where I do think he takes her for granted is her abilities and contributions. I think part of the reason Felicity fell in love with Oliver is the reason I like Olicity so much; he admires and respects her, is a bit in awe of her, and lets her know it. He has cut that off entirely now. The thing is, IRL, that is the sort of...atrophy of the little things that leads to falling OUT of love. If he isn't even going to give her *that*, and there's Ray, and he sure isn't hesitant about speaking up.

Oliver is so focused on shutting her out that the pervasive coldness results in him seeming constantly irritated by her. He is not, right now, the Oliver she fell in love with. If he had treated her like this all along, she wouldn't have fallen in love with him at all.

[blixie]

 

Oliver's damaged, but he just nurses that damage, instead of ever trying to actually heal it. These sporadic attempts at healing are always reversed immediately, so he can retreat into his safe emo angst, with only his bow and the darkness (of his heart and his lair) to keep him company. To me, that just gets boring. It's past time for him to grow up. And I've lost patience with the glacial pace of the process he's made. He's sabotaged himself too many times now for me to care.

 

God yes, and I really could not be any more OVER IT. And honestly I think he's a bigger douche now than he ever was before the island.  Pre Island Oliver was slow, slutty, obtuse, and insensitive, but post Island Oliver justifies being a willfully malicious dick in service of his Mission. It is so unbelievably shitty. So how about stop show? Let him learn, let him mature, and FFS let it STICK. Accumulate all that experience Oliver.

 

And I will never ever buy the  I wasn't focused bullshit in The Calm, such a pathetic contrivance to get him right back where they needed him to be. Dude you were focused fine and Slade still killed your mama fright in front of you. He still brought the city to it's knees. I'd bring up that he kidnapped Laurel but that was one of his good deeds.. And you? You found a totally even more secret cave to go hide in, ALOOOONE. I really am just gonna have to watch this show for Diggle and Felicity.

 

Sigh maybe I can take heart in the idea that Sara's death did snap him out of that mindset, and he's baby stepping his way back to Felicity. He admitted he didn't wanna die alone down there, and reached out to Thea, and seeing Ray not hesitate to go after what he wants is going to be a significant motivator. 

[quarks]

What I'm worried about is not that they are setting up an Oliver/Laurel romance right now (it's too soon since he's supposed to be in love with  Felicity (which is also why the The Calm numbers are an outlier) but that they are setting up Laurel to be the de facto leading lady (with a possible Oliver relationship in s4 or 5).

 

 

This is a very reasonable comment. Unfortunately, my answer is less so, so, to bitterness we go!

[statsgirl]

Sigh maybe I can take heart in the idea that Sara's death did snap him out of that mindset, and he's baby stepping his way back to Felicity. He admitted he didn't wanna die alone down there, and reached out to Thea, and seeing Ray not hesitate to go after what he wants is going to be a significant motivator. 

It really is time to get over that this season.  There are only so many times they can drink from the same stream.

 

At the end of Deathstroke, Oliver told Diggle and Felicity that he was so focusse on the harm that Slade could do, he didn't realize that he himself could do even more harm.  Time to realize that's what he did in The Calm too.

[A Cunning Stunt]

Heh. I remember the posts on TWoP about Stephen Amell's chemistry with Willa Holland, and how it was borderline inappropriate at times. I noticed it myself on several occasions, where it looked like Thea was interested in Oliver in a decidedly non-sibling way. I still think that "we never got to the exchanging presents part" from Year's End is about the most sexually loaded piece of dialogue this show has contained so far.

 

But really what that showed, beyond Willa Holland needing a cold shower, was that fans were looking for any alternative to Laurel, even before Felicity became viable. She'd appeared in a few episodes by that stage, and I know that there were comments on how she'd be a better option for Oliver than Laurel. Hell, even Joanne was suggested as a better option. So that has always undercut the idea that Felicity usurped Laurel in that sense. A lot of people rejected Laurel way before that, and it was for the reasons that have been detailed on this forum. Terrible writing, bad acting, no chemistry with the lead, and a lot of people just weren't on board with the idea that Laurel and Oliver should even try to overcome the fact that he was shagging her sister.

 

That can't somehow magically change, two years down the line. Katie Cassidy is no better now than she was then, and the writing seems to be no better. In fact, it might be even worse. But what is stacked against them even further is, now Oliver does have a viable alternative who has been widely embraced by the audience. Still, I think these buffoons in charge of the show think they know better, and are smarter, than everyone else.

I was equal parts repelled & intrigued by by the Oliver/Thea inappropriateness, but you're right - the reason it was so apparent was the chasm between Amell/Cassidy. I was relieved once L/O got their love scene done & dusted because it felt like this black cloud of inevitability hanging over the show.

The bolded is why I'm not able to currently watch with without an uneasy feeling. Yes, they have done some great things, but I find I'm now waiting for them to make stupid writing moves that make absolutely no sense in terms of what relationships work onscreen, just to fulfil a contract. I don't want to be strung along for 5 seasons only for them to pull a bait & switch in the 11th hour.

 

SA has said that there is only one woman in Oliver's life this season, but that doesn't mean they won't test out how the show goes over with Laurel as the leading lady/proto-Canary when Felicity isn't around.

 Exactly. This is better articulated than my comment & is what I'm really not looking forward to.

If Laurel was any kind of enhancement even as a friend it would be one thing, but I can't think of a relationship she has on the show where she brings something positive to it. Even the father/daughter connection works more in part due to Quentin, & most of the time I feel pity that this is all the family he really has in Starling.

 

Why wasn't there a clear scene about Oliver knowing Felicity accepted Palmer's job offer? Why is Felicity acting like nothing happened in 303 if she was clearly hurt by Oliver giving her the cold shoulder in 302? A lot of you guys are talking about the episodes missing something, and I agree. That's pretty clear to me too.

 I would love to know what was cut from these initial episodes. So much of what we've been given feels clunky to the point I can't believe it is solely about the writing. If it is, then that does not bode well for the rest of the season.

I guess my main problem is that back in season 2A, even when there was angst between Felicity and Oliver "because of the life that I lead", it never looked like this. And sure, it's too early in the season, and I'm willing to keep watching and wait for these two crazy kids to sort it all out [hopefully sooner rather than later if the breakneck speed of plots keep going]. I'm all for Felicity moving on, and I *hope* that THAT sparks something in Oliver. He already admitted he doesn't wanna die in the cave, so I'm not competely hopeless, but I guess I'm also not that patient? Hee.

I've enjoyed their relationship so far & I'm willing to go with it to see where the angst leads - I love angst (when done well!) as I'm a sucker for heartache. I just don't want seasons of will they/won't they, so color me shocked when Oliver made that admission to Digg so soon! It gives me a shred of hope.

I've always expected that any potential long term love interest for Oliver would have to wade through a lot of crap & his PTSD before it got better, so I'm quite happy for it to take the rest of the season to get him to a place to be fully commited to a life alongside being the Arrow. Also for Felicity to throw in her lot because it's not as though she has made an declarations at this point. Once they are official I want them to stay that way - for a change I'd like to see a hero in a functional relationship that provides a stable background to the A+ action & isn't soap-worthy.

 

I don't know. I can see some of this, but at the same time I think maybe this is giving Oliver both too much and too little credit. :) Is that possible?

 

On the one hand, yes, I can see how his pain could be filtered through his damaged heart to come out with him feeling rejected by Felicity. At the same time, he is a grown man with an overdeveloped guilt complex, and I think he absolutely feels that he was the one who did the hurting in both of those big scenes in 3x01 and 3x02. He knows he was the one who made the decision to end things in The Calm, and that he hurt her. And the editing effed with things here, but I think we're supposed to read that moment in 3x02 that @dancingnancy references above as Felicity sort of imploring him to respond to her, to reach out to her, and he lets that moment pass him by. You can see him regret it as she's walking away. He's aware that he did that.

 

So I don't think he's waiting for her to make another move. He may feel that it's not his place to touch her--and it's NOT, I actually don't want him to do that--but that doesn't excuse being cold to her, making snotty faces, shutting her down, making other people talk to her. That's not about giving her her space, or feeling hurt by her. That's about protecting himself from the pain of being around her when he can't be with her the way he wants to be. I understand it, but it doesn't make it OK, and he's handling this in about the worst possible way. If Felicity knew she was risking their entire friendship when she said yes to that date, she never would have done it. And in 3x03, we saw her trying to be normal and him shutting it down. So it's on him to fix it. I suspect that if this isn't addressed in the one scene Felicity is in at the end of Ep 4, then it will be at some point soon. Because the EPs have to know that this dynamic is not enjoyable to watch.

I couldn't say the highlighted any better. I certainly feel the ball is in Oliver's court now.

[Happy Harpy]

"Because the life I lead" has always been a nonsense to me when it came to Oliver's relationship with Felicity.

With Moira, Tommy, Thea -pre Malcolm, Laurel? Yes, it was justified. With his girl Wednesday? No way.

 

Unless I misunderstood the season opener, where Oliver's "I love you" was explained -official word said it would be...he loves Felicity. Has loved Felicity for a little while, at least. And in spite of this, he sent her throat first on Slade's blade. Because he knew she was capable enough, because he knew she was brave enough, because she's his frakking, freaking, fucking partner. Not just his love interest, not only his damsel to save. She's is other third (not his "other half" because hey, Diggle!).

 

So, everything about Oliver/Felicity since the explosion at the restaurant is for me OOC, retconned to death, and in complete contradiction with everything I've seen from the moment Felicity and her red pen happened in Oliver's life. And no, I wasn't sold on the "life I lead" stuff in 2x06 either.

 

This latest bullshit I read about changes everything that was great and modern about the Oliver/Felicity relationship (romantic or not). It was obvious that he didn't like her to take risks, but he didn't go caveman on her. He was afraid for her, but he respected her abilities, he trusted her...and that's what made their relationship so healthy and compelling in my eyes.

 

"Because of the life I lead" would be valid if Oliver kicked Felicity out of Team Arrow. (Oh, be a fly on the wall at the moment the EPs would get the ratings, then). Since he didn't, I consider the nonsense and separation of Oliver and Felicity, even as friends who understand and are there for each other, as plot-driven OOC bullcrap of the worst kind.

 

I wouln't have been so turned off by the show if they got Laurel into Team Arrow's orbit while Team Arrow was still going strong. I won't be a hypocrite: I wouldn't have liked it and I would have complained about her to no end -unless writing and acting miraculously improved. But I would have watched the show, still.

I also would have been more receptive about a Ray/Felicity relationship (horrible, 50 Shades writing aside) if its purpose wasn't so obviously to separate Felicity from Team Arrow and to articially try to make Laurel and Ray more relevant in Oliver and Felicity's lives, respectively.

Just for the record, I can appreciate a character being close to two different characters of the opposite sex. For example, I like both Daryl's relationship with Carol, and Daryl's relationship with Beth, on the Walking Dead, for different reasons (it seems a very unpopular opinion)...because they aren't written as mutually exclusive. Unfortunately, it's the opposite on Arrow S3, since I have the feeling that Oliver/Felicity, even in a non-romantic dimension, is backburned at best, destroyed at worst in order to prop Laurel/Oliver and Ray/Felicity as each other's "person" (re: Grey's Anatomy). And imo, it's only the beginning and Diggle's relationship with Oliver will be treated in the same way -only because this "Olicity" thing is a "thing" and a more visible one, it has to go first.

 

Imo, a relationship isn't relevant, least compelling or entertaining, if you have to put down others in order to put it on the map. Oliver/Felicity and Oliver/Diggle aren't antithetic; on the opposite they enhance each other, imo. If Laurel is really a relevant character in Oliver's life, if Ray truly has his place on the show, they should be able to work out and entertain along with Team Arrow, not at the sake of it.

Edited October 25, 2014 by Happy Harpy

[apinknightmare]

Except Oliver never once said that his reasoning for not wanting to be with Felicity had anything to do with her safety. With the exception of Slade, every single time she's wanted to take a risk with her life he's always tried to be the voice of reason, but once she asserts herself, he agrees. He didn't want Laurel to know his secret because it wasn't safe, he had the same issue with McKenna. Felicity knows he's the Arrow, and her safety's at risk every day simply for having that knowledge. This isn't about that.

 

He's not really ready to be a fully committed romantic partner to her, and "because of the life I lead" is the wall he (subconsciously) hides behind.

Edited October 25, 2014 by apinknightmare

[MsSchadenfreude]

 

Unless I misunderstood the season opener, where Oliver's "I love you" was explained -official word said it would be...he loves Felicity. Has loved Felicity for a little while, at least. And in spite of this, he sent her throat first on Slade's blade. Because he knew she was capable enough, because he knew she was brave enough, because she's his frakking, freaking, fucking partner. Not just his love interest, not only his damsel to save. She's is other third (not his "other half" because hey, Diggle!).

So, everything about Oliver/Felicity since the explosion at the restaurant is for me OOC, retconned to death, and in complete contradiction with everything I've seen from the moment Felicity and her red pen happened in Oliver's life. And no, I wasn't sold on the "life I lead" stuff in 2x06 either.

This latest bullshit I read about changes everything that was great and modern about the Oliver/Felicity relationship (romantic or not). It was obvious that he didn't like her to take risks, but he didn't go caveman on her. He was afraid for her, but he respected her abilities, he trusted her...and that's what made their relationship so healthy and compelling in my eyes.

"Because of the life I lead" would be valid if Oliver kicked Felicity out of Team Arrow.

 

IMO that is not what Oliver did in the first episode at all.  Oliver did not end his romantic relationship with Felicity because she would be in danger, he ended things because he doesn't know how to be "Oliver" in a relationship and "Arrow" at the same time.  Oliver believes he got caught up in having a normal life with Felicity and as he told Diggle after the explosion, he lost his focus on crime fighting.  That is a very different thing than saying I can't be with Felicity because I would put her in danger.  

 

Oliver has major issues and he should probably be in therapy for a good long time because of it, but I don't see anything out of character with his current behavior.  It's standard Oliver Queen operating procedure.  Oliver ventures out in the world like a normal boy and when something bad happens (in this case his date with Felicity getting blown up), instead of dealing with it, he runs back to the safety of the hood. That hood is just his version of Linus's security blanket.  Felicity called Oliver out on that exact thing "I know it's easier to live under the hood" in the second episode.

 

Now whether Oliver should have dealt with his issues by now is another question altogether.

Edited October 25, 2014 by MsSchadenfreude

[ostentatious]

The interesting thing about "Because of the life I lead, I just think that it’s better to not be with someone I could really care about" is that it applies equally to pre-Island douchebag Ollie as it does to Oliver now. He just has a different set of problematic behaviors he engages in to avoid actually feeling pain, and that he doesn't know how to stop.

It has certainly always been a bullshit phrase if you take it at face value. Oliver is very bad at understanding his own motivations for things. Look, Oliver has tried to have a Realationship *one time*. It was Laurel, and to say he fucked up is an understatement.

Oliver trusts the Arrow with Felicity more than he trusts Oliver Queen with her. Oliver Queen is the one who gets women hurt. He hurt Laurel, he hurt Sara, he hurt Shado, and indirectly hurt his mom, since Oliver was the one Slade hated. Every single one of those is about Oliver and his sex life, isn't it? There was no good choice to make between Sara and Shado. Either way he destroyed a woman he cared about because he couldn't keep his penis away from them.

Oliver has PTSD, and while it isn't entirely rational, he thinks of himself as something that is inflicted upon women. He doesn't think of himself as something to offer someone he loves. God knows what happens to him in Hong Kong and later. What he has already gone through is enough to think of himself as bad news for ladies.

Now, does that mean he cared nothing for Helena or Sara? No, but as Saint Diggle told him in 108, he learns and grows just from putting himself out there and taking risks with his heart. The fact that he went there with Sara doesn't mean he was bullshitting Felicity in 206 or that he couldn't really care about Sara so she didn't count. It was that he was at a different place by 213. Because of Felicity.

Felicity walked out at the end of 206 with that line - I think you deserve someone better than her. Oliver is terribly vulnerable to and dependent upon Felicity to tell him who he is and how to be. Her image of him informs his self-image to a degree that would be unhealthy were Felicity not so incredibly fair-minded and healthy herself. You can ruin a man who depends upon you like that. Just like Felicity telling him she wanted more out of life gave him something to process and put him in a different place that led directly to him telling Diggle he didn't want to die down there, Felicity's final line in 206 - and lots of interactions afterward, with her and others - gave him something to process and put him in different place by 213. A place where he could take the biggest risk possible and be with FELICITY, upon whom he depends so much? Shit no, too real. But it's not like he knew intellectually that Sara was a practice run. He just went for it. I went for a lot of practice runs. Practice runs sincerely meant and only understood as such later on are not unkind or using someone.

Diggle and Felicity moreso than anyone else are people he watches, hears, and that change him by their presence. There may be months in between while he stews and shifts, and he probably couldn't map their influence if he tried, but that is how he is working his way back to life. He isn't lying or bullshitting anyone.

[BkWurm1]

The season opener set up the need for Oliver and Felicity to have this distance between them, I get it, I really do.  For a 100 reasons it's makes perfect sense from a writing standpoint and as long as they adhere to the implied promise of removing the wedge between them and letting their time apart make each of them appreciate each other even more, yes, that would be worth some pained episode watching right now. 

 

My problem is I've been here on other shows thinking, yes, this makes perfect sense for now and its only temporary only for the show runners to decide to keep it as a permanent part of the show.  No explanations included for why two characters who had always been close and found ways to honestly talk and express themselves to each other suddenly were unable, unwilling or just couldn't be bothered to do anything about it.  Yes blame Smallville but in my moments of doom and gloom, this is what creeps into my brain. 

 

The rest of this post is going to spiral deeper into my worst fears so I'll bring that over to the non-spoiler hopes and fears speculation thread. 

[Happy Harpy]

 

He's not really ready to be a fully committed romantic partner to her, and "because of the life I lead" is the wall he (subconsciously) hides behind.

He told Felicity, during their date (thanks for allowing me to watch again their great interaction!...in what I guess will be a long while *sobs*) that "because of what we do, I can't be with someone I really care about".I don't see what it could mean, aside from being afraid to lose someone he cares about ?

Yes, that makes him afraid to commit, but again, for me it's a moot point when it comes to Felicity...because she's involved in his activities and because he knows (and admitted aloud) that he cares.

Oliver isn't interested in any other woman, he imo craves romantic/sentimental closeness with someone who knows who he is since S1 (re:Helena) so I don't understand why he wouldn't be ready to commit romantically with Felicity for any other reason than fear of loss (...and pigheaded me is back to the moot point, oops).

 

Oliver believes he got caught up in having a normal life with Felicity and as he told Diggle after the explosion, he lost his focus on crime fighting.

He still fights crime with her. In the immortal words of Dido; "But if I didn't say it, well I'd still have felt it, where's the sense in that?"

Felicity is an asset, not a liability; that's why I -pigheadly, again- don't get why being officially in a romantic relationship with her would change anything.

Moreover, when Oliver didn't know what to do, when he was overwhelmed by loss, Felicity was precisely the one who made him focus and get his shit together. To get Thea, to go on fighting Slade. So sorry, but I can't wrap my head around how she'd make him lose his focus; aside from: it's convenient for the writers to stall an adult, no will-they-won't-they, natural relationship.

Edited October 25, 2014 by Happy Harpy

[ostentatious]

The season opener set up the need for Oliver and Felicity to have this distance between them, I get it, I really do. For a 100 reasons it's makes perfect sense from a writing standpoint and as long as they adhere to the implied promise of removing the wedge between them and letting their time apart make each of them appreciate each other even more, yes, that would be worth some pained episode watching right now.

My problem is I've been here on other shows thinking, yes, this makes perfect sense for now and its only temporary only for the show runners to decide to keep it as a permanent part of the show. No explanations included for why two characters who had always been close and found ways to honestly talk and express themselves to each other suddenly were unable, unwilling or just couldn't be bothered to do anything about it. Yes blame Smallville but in my moments of doom and gloom, this is what creeps into my brain.

The rest of this post is going to spiral deeper into my worst fears so I'll bring that over to the non-spoiler hopes and fears speculation thread.

I think the reason Oliver and Felicity went on a date and Oliver stated his intent wrt her in the premiere was for the *audience*. Instead of dragging out a "who does Oliver really love?" thing, which is a story they are vastly uninterested in telling but would've been assumed to be the story otherwise, they drove a stake in the ground and said "Felicity is the woman Oliver is in love with and wants to MARRY AND MAKE BABIES WITH." I mean, he stared at her and a BABY like he was gonna DIE. Ok? And that was for us.

The show doesn't want us to wonder about who and what he wants. They went to the unnecessary step of delivering on Olicity and positioning them this way so they could proceed with our understanding. Without the date they could've proceeded forward the same way they're going. The date was their statement to us.

Edited October 25, 2014 by ostentatious

[Orion]

 

He still fights crime with her. In the immortal words of Dido; "But if I didn't say it, well I'd still have felt it, where's the sense in that?"

Felicity is an asset, not a liability; that's why I -pigheadly, again- don't get why being officially in a romantic relationship with her would change anything.

Moreover, when Oliver didn't know what to do, when he was overwhelmed by loss, Felicity was precisely the one who made him focus and get his shit together. To get Thea, to go on fighting Slade. So sorry, but I can't wrap my head around how she'd make him lose his focus; aside from: it's convenient for the writers to stall an adult, no will-they-won't-they, natural relationship.

 

I agree that it's a BS excuse to not be with her but I almost think that's what we are suppose to think. It's a fear and irrational but it causes Oliver to retreat to his default setting - robot Oliver.  

 

I always look to Diggle during each episode because if Felicity is the audience member in the room than Diggle is the writers room in the room, I think Diggle says what the writers want us to know. When Oliver brings Felicity back to the Arrow cave after the explosion and Roy finds the GPS tracker on Oliver's jacket, Diggle says to him, "Oliver, I know what you're thinking ... Listen, I'm not other people. I know exactly what is going on in your head and you are wrong." That's when Oliver answers back about loosing his focus. So assuming Diggle is always right (and he is) he knew Oliver was going to blame letting himself be Oliver Queen, go on a date, and feel the love he has for Felicity, Diggle is answering for the writers that what Oliver thinks is wrong. It's a stupid excuse but like Oliver normally does he lowers his head and rushes forward with his wrong idea. 

 

I think it doesn't make sense to us because it's not suppose too.

[apinknightmare]

He told Felicity, during their date (thanks for allowing me to watch again their great interaction!...in what I guess will be a long while *sobs*) that "because of what we do, I can't be with someone I really care about".I don't see what it could mean, aside from being afraid to lose someone he cares about ?

Yes, that makes him afraid to commit, but again, for me it's a moot point when it comes to Felicity...because she's involved in his activities and because he knows (and admitted aloud) that he cares.

Oliver isn't interested in any other woman, he imo craves romantic/sentimental closeness with someone who knows who he is since S1 (re:Helena) so I don't understand why he wouldn't be ready to commit romantically with Felicity for any other reason than fear of loss (...and pigheaded me is back to the moot point, oops).

 

Well, the reason he gave her for not pursuing their relationship in 3x01 was because he couldn't be both Arrow and Oliver Queen, which is a more plain-language version of "because of the life that I lead" but is essentially him saying that he's scared to commit. He backs away from good things at the slightest hint that something bad could end them - which I think comes from his PTSD and probably a deep-seated fear of allowing good things in his life and believing that he deserves them and they'll last. His reasoning sounds like bullshit because...well, it kind of is. He just needs to work through all of that bullshit to come out on the other side, ready.

[statsgirl]

I agree, they wrote the date, that blew up even before they ordered, to settle the question of whether Oliver loved Felicity or Laurel, which had been left dangling at the end of s2, without actually having to put them together into a relationship for even a nanosecond.  Kind of cowardly, I think.  Oliver and Felicity could at least have had a bit of time being happy together, especially as we didn't see them develop their flirtiness over the five month hiatus.

 

Oliver has major issues and he should probably be in therapy for a good long time because of it, but I don't see anything out of character with his current behavior.  It's standard Oliver Queen operating procedure.  Oliver ventures out in the world like a normal boy and when something bad happens (in this case his date with Felicity getting blown up), instead of dealing with it, he runs back to the safety of the hood. That hood is just his version of Linus's security blanket.  Felicity called Oliver out on that exact thing "I know it's easier to live under the hood" in the second episode.

i love the metaphor of the Linus blanket but I think this is the real thing.  Oliver may say that he wants to protect Felicity, he may say he can't be Oliver Queen and effectively be the Arrow, but what they're showing us it that while he's comfortable now as The Arrow, he's afraid to be Oliver.  All the things he tells Felicity and Diggle are just excuses.

 

I always look to Diggle during each episode because if Felicity is the audience member in the room than Diggle is the writers room in the room, I think Diggle says what the writers want us to know. 

 

Well, if you're going to ask Diggle, 

 

 

What’s his take the ongoing Oliver and Felicity saga — does he just want to smack their heads together at this point?
I think so. I think he does — you’d have to be blind not to see it. Diggle’s crucible was Afghanistan, Oliver’s crucible was the island, and Diggle is much more adjusted at this point. There’s no conflict in being able to have a wonderful relationship with Lyla, being a father and fighting crime at night for Diggle. Oliver hasn’t reconciled those things yet, but he will.

Edited October 25, 2014 by statsgirl

[Happy Harpy]

 

I think it doesn't make sense to us because it's not suppose too.

 

He just needs to work through all of that bullshit to come out on the other side, ready.

And silly me wanted the show to make sense and be free of bullshit after S2-B! ;)

Methinks S3 isn't the good place for adult, healthy relationships.

[Orion]

Well, if you're going to ask Diggle, 

 

I love David Ramsey quotes about Diggle. He has such a good understanding of his character.

 

 

What’s his take the ongoing Oliver and Felicity saga — does he just want to smack their heads together at this point?

I think so. I think he does — you’d have to be blind not to see it. Diggle’s crucible was Afghanistan, Oliver’s crucible was the island, and Diggle is much more adjusted at this point. There’s no conflict in being able to have a wonderful relationship with Lyla, being a father and fighting crime at night for Diggle. Oliver hasn’t reconciled those things yet, but he will

 

I would literally pay the show to have Diggle Gibbs smack (NCIS reference for people who don't watch it) Oliver every time he says something stupid.  Take my money and give me popcorn.

[MsSchadenfreude]

 

 

He still fights crime with her. In the immortal words of Dido; "But if I didn't say it, well I'd still have felt it, where's the sense in that?"

Felicity is an asset, not a liability; that's why I -pigheadly, again- don't get why being officially in a romantic relationship with her would change anything.

 

Yes, but someone's emotional triggers very often don't make logical sense to anyone not living them.  I think the show has been pretty clear that, rightly or wrongly, Oliver sees romantic attachments differently than other attachments.  He doesn't handle them particularly well and that has been consistent since long before he ever stepped on the Gambit.  So I think Oliver and Felicity somehow managing to have a successful relationship from their very first date would actually be more OOC than anything that has happened on the show.  And not just because of Oliver.  I think Felicity has some stuff she needs to work through as well.  But yeah they both need a good smack.:)

Edited October 26, 2014 by MsSchadenfreude

[apinknightmare]

And silly me wanted the show to make sense and be free of bullshit after S2-B! ;)

Methinks S3 isn't the good place for adult, healthy relationships.

 

IDK, I think they're both dealing with this in a healthy way so far. Oliver realizes that he's not relationship material right now, so he tells Felicity and she walks away. She tells him she's not going to wait for him, that she's not going to live for the mission alone, so she goes out and finds something meaningful outside of that. He realizes that he made a wrong decision, tells Diggle he doesn't want to die that way and takes steps toward a relationship he's ready to deal with: Thea. He was going to tell her the truth, but stupidly got talked out of it. He's just not ready for Felicity yet. However bullshit his stated reason is, he has a valid one too - simply realizing that he's not ready is reason enough.

 

Someone like Oliver definitely needs to work his way into a healthy relationship...it might be frustrating to watch, but I think he's on his way.

[statsgirl]

Someone like Oliver definitely needs to work his way into a healthy relationship...it might be frustrating to watch, but I think he's on his way.

 

 

For me, the big question is whether they will ever allow that to actually happen, or if it will be 'wash, rinse, repeat' through the course of the show.

 

(If anyone has watched Saving Hope, that show had a great relationship in season 1, then completely blew it apart in the next two seasons till I'm at the point where I'm so disgusted by the way that was handled, only two of the minor characters interest me any more.)

[apinknightmare]

For me, the big question is whether they will ever allow that to actually happen, or if it will be 'wash, rinse, repeat' through the course of the show.

 

(If anyone has watched Saving Hope, that show had a great relationship in season 1, then completely blew it apart in the next two seasons till I'm at the point where I'm so disgusted by the way that was handled, only two of the minor characters interest me any more.)

 

I think so, or else they're wasting a whole season on trying to get him there. I think the end goal of the show is to have him be a healthy (or as healthy as he can be), well-rounded man who has the life that he wants as Oliver Queen and the life that he wants as the Arrow. At least, that's how I hope it plays out; that seems to be where the show is taking him.

Edited October 26, 2014 by apinknightmare

[BkWurm1]

If I had just watched The Calm, I don't think I would have my moments of deep despair but these last two episodes have been very rough.  In Sara, I cling to Oliver following Felicity's example with the clump of dirt on Sara's grave.  I think that symmetry between them speaks volumes....but it's a subtle thing and I keep getting reminded in other ways on the show that Arrow is NOT a subtle show and then I doubt everything again. 

[apinknightmare]

If I had just watched The Calm, I don't think I would have my moments of deep despair but these last two episodes have been very rough.  In Sara, I cling to Oliver following Felicity's example with the clump of dirt on Sara's grave.  I think that symmetry between them speaks volumes....but it's a subtle thing and I keep getting reminded in other ways on the show that Arrow is NOT a subtle show and then I doubt everything again. 

 

Just in The Calm alone though they had Diggle telling Oliver he was fooling himself if he tried to pretend he didn't love Felicity, they had him flat-out tell her that meeting her got him on the road back to being human again, they had her cradling a freaking sunflower in the aftermath of the explosion, they had him tell her that he couldn't tell her that he doesn't love her, and then they had that damn light saturation after the kiss. This show is like anvils to the head every five minutes, but they can do subtlety - they just choose to bat you over the head with heavy things most of the time.

 

It's rough right now because it would be rough in real life, so that really doesn't concern me, and honestly I thought they were fine together in Sara. That moment in the foundry was very sad and difficult to watch, but it got them both to better places by the end of the ep. It's just odd because usually we have some kind of resolution right away when they have a falling out. I'm not so bothered by it yet, especially since there was only 30 seconds of screen time with them together in it after the dirt throwing ON SARA'S PINE BOX COFFIN AT HER SECRET BURIAL WITHOUT HER MOTHER OR FATHER THERE (won't ever be over it). I think things will be better by ep 5. Not back to where they were, but better.

[Genki]

I'm trying to be patient about the distance between Oliver & Felicity, really I am, but it is hard when you can't exactly feel like you can trust TPTB.

 

Putting aside the meta stuff, I think what is getting me through is that I can see Oliver making progress, and I have hope for Felicity goodness in the next 2 weeks (I so badly want development for her, not tied into a love triangle and so I have big hopes for Falsh 1.04 and Arrow 3.05).

 

Staring with Oliver, I can't emphasis enough how happy I am that he is making steps towards a mature honest relationship with Thea. I've always wanted more Thea Oliver and it was frustrating to me in Season 1 when they were still pushing O/L as OTP, that when Thea was reaching out to Oliver and trying to connect or open him up, he would give her nothing. They had some nice sibling dynamics, but it was always pushed aside for the Laurel stuff. 

 

In Season 2 he made so many bad decisions regarding Thea, starting with abandoning her for 5 months, lying by omission about her parentage and allowing her to believe he knew about it longer than a couple of week. All under the guise of "protection". I get it, she is his little sister, you can't help but fall into relationship patterns learn in childhood sometime.

 

But finally in this episode (3.03) Oliver did some great things

 

- Gently called her out on her lies, but did not berate her

- Respected her decisions for herself

- Told her a devastating truth, that she he trust her to handle the emotional fall out

- Finally, most importantly, told her that he needed her, ask for her help and shifted the power dynamic in their relationship to a more even level

 

If he doesn't continue to following this up with more truths, leading up to revealing he is the arrow, I will be upset. But I so happy with the steps their relationship is taking, it gives me positive Olicitiy feels. Because while he fells maybe he burnt that bridge with Felicity (for now) he can still have a means to find his way back to Oliver Queen. I also think it is healthier for Oliver to develop and experience things without Felicity, so that it highlights to him how much richer the experience is with her.

 

Oliver reaching out to Thea means that he is trying to live outside the basement, her took onboard what Felicity said to him in "Sara" and he is actively moving forward from his realisation that he doesn't want to "die down here"

 

As for the all too brief Oliver/Felicity interaction, I don't see any real angry or jealous Oliver, I see an Oliver fighting not to reach out to Felicity. When she is being adorable trying to reset their relationship back to pre-date and love declarations (Basically Oliver Kryptonite), I literally see his arm move forward to touch her, and Oliver pulls himself back. When the new job is mentioned, I saw Oliver trying to change topic, rather than jealousy, I feel like he is trying to avoid all his Felicity feeling triggers (thanks @MsSchadenfreude ).

 

Also Stepehn Amell is giving really strong voice cues in these last 2 episodes, Oliver is using the Arrow voice A LOT. So you can hear when he is breaking out of Mission mode, or heavily compartmentalising, with all his interactions. A noticeable time is with Laurel in 3.03, when he sees her hurt, he uses his Oliver voice, he moves to comfort her and she steps back and he changes to Arrow voice. I hope that is to demonstrate that Oliver can't find himself around Laurel, and she won't be the road to lead him back to himself. Frankly I think I think they have set them on 2 different paths, Laurel is heading down a direction that Oliver is fighting to come back from. (I just have no interest in seeing her journey there).

Edited October 26, 2014 by Genki

[TanyaKay]

I think the reason Oliver and Felicity went on a date and Oliver stated his intent wrt her in the premiere was for the *audience*. Instead of dragging out a "who does Oliver really love?" thing, which is a story they are vastly uninterested in telling but would've been assumed to be the story otherwise, they drove a stake in the ground and said "Felicity is the woman Oliver is in love with and wants to MARRY AND MAKE BABIES WITH." I mean, he stared at her and a BABY like he was gonna DIE. Ok? And that was for us.

 

Oh yes, and that was rather heavy handed and for the benefit of the audience only. I mean Felicity had no idea that he was even looking at her, she was busy admiring the brand new Digglet.

[wonderwall]

I take solace in EBR, DR, and SAs interviews when I think of Olicity long term and whether or not they will end up together. Hell there is this one interview from a year back EBR did that makes me feel better about the situation: 

 

"They both care for each other a lot. And they want to protect each other. Oliver is so stable in his instability. If he were to crack Felicity would crack too. They’re that connected. They rely on each other to that extent.” - X

Edited October 26, 2014 by wonderwall

[Password]

No stop! Don't make me cry.

Actually in that way they really need space from each other. I've come across one or two who say their relationship is almost too dependant.

Although when Oliver did crack and give up Felicity was the voice that told him to push on. When everyone was telling him to stop, she recognised he needed to go. What a lovely base they made for their relationship. Sigh *heart eyes*

[ohjoy]

As for the all too brief Oliver/Felicity interaction, I don't see any real angry or jealous Oliver, I see an Oliver fighting not to reach out to Felicity. When she is being adorable trying to reset their relationship back to pre-date and love declarations (Basically Oliver Kryptonite), I literally see his arm move forward to touch her, and Oliver pulls himself back. When the new job is mentioned, I saw Oliver trying to change topic, rather than jealousy, I feel like he is trying to avoid all his Felicity feeling triggers (thanks @MsSchadenfreude ).

See, I do see Oliver's "angry" face when Felicity makes the index finger joke, but I think it's not true anger -- it seems to be the only face he can manage to pull to eye contact with her in that moment. I was more fascinated by how he looked to be consciously avoiding looking directly at her while she was talking, until he couldn't not look at her when she make that little joke. ITA about him trying avoid his all his triggers -- and what looks like exasperation and "angry face" are how his default avoidance mechsnisms.

(Guys, is it bad that I'm now really obsessed with that scene? I keep replaying it so I can watch her talk, and then to watch his facisl expressions, then to listen to her voice inflections, then to watch him glare.... This is gonna be a long half of the season if I have to keep examining these minute acting choices. ;-) )

[Happy Harpy]

From the Hopes and Fears thread:

 

You guys don't think they're thinking of spinning of Ray into his own show and sending Felicity with him?

To send her with him, I don't know yet, but I'm convinced that they're testing the waters to see if they could "free" Oliver without antagonizing the legions (it seems they are) of Felicity fans.

 

On the one hand, I find it funny that both of the "purposeful" main romances (Oliver/Laurel and now Felicity/Ray) on the show were tainted/ruined by "awkward" writing...in my eyes at least, since cheating, sister swapping, stalking and Men-know-you-better aren't exactly my definition of an epic romance.

 

On the other hand, the ropes are so thick that 1) I feel a tad insulted by the obvious attempt at manipulation so I find myself unable to get behind Ray/Felicity and 2) their relationship suffers because, imo, it's "written". And it shows.

Therefore, it suffers the comparison with Oliver/Felicity because the latter was "born" from a combination of writing, chemistry between the actors, and magic of television. It just can't compare, on any level. B.Routh was better than I feared -for the little I saw- and I didn't see anti-chemistry as I do with Oliver/Laurel. But it's a simple difference between natural and artificial, imo.

Do you remember The One with the Two Parties (for Rachel's birthday on Friends)? For me, Ray/Felicity (and even more Oliver/Laurel) is for me like the boring, all planified party at Monica's and Oliver/Felicity, the spontaneous, so much fun bash at Joey and Chandler's.

Edited October 28, 2014 by Happy Harpy

[ostentatious]

What motivation would the prods have for undoing the Herculean effort they went to to shift Laurel out of the designated LI spot and move Felicity in? If they just wanted Felicity to be a rest stop on the road to Lauriver, they wouldn't have had to spend an entire season reconfiguring the show and impacting the DCU by adding EBR's Felicity to the comics. Temporary Olicity is the easiest thing in the world to do.

 

I don't think the producers have ever exhibited any interest in making a show about a guy who can't decide which woman he wants to be with. They didn't set out to make that. They set out to make a show where the audience had no question about who Oliver wanted. The questions were, will he let himself be with her? Who will she evolve into over the years? Can the people they become be together? Things like that. But her identity was not supposed to be a question.

 

So, I don't see why they would suddenly develop an interest in Oliver actually waffling between women emotionally. He was never supposed to, and they have devoted NO screentime to it. A lot of people *told* Oliver in last season that he was still into Laurel, and every time he responded with the Stoneyface.

 

I seriously don't know what else they have to do here. I don't think they're going for a traditional triangle with Ray/Felicity/Oliver. I think they're showing Oliver the contrast between himself and Ray, what Ray represents, etc. They will probably choose to have Ray and Felicity at least date a time or three, and Ray will probably be in love with her, but Felicity isn't going to feel the same way.

 

Laurel *may* be used similarly, because it seems unlikely they'd bother to have Diggle, Felicity, and Sara (Tommy too but s1 doesn't really count as much since they hadn't decided firmly on Olicity yet) tell Oliver how he feels about Laurel and get the Stoneyface non-response unless they planned to work with that. Laurel really represents a different way than Felicity represents. Laurel will ultimately act for the greater good, but she is unethical as *hell*, and pretty clearly prefers the Arrow to Oliver. Felicity prefers Oliver to the Arrow. And that kind of relationship - where the Laurel vs Felicity aspect is about ethics and who he wants to be rather than who he wants to be *with* - that's a relationship KC and SA can actually play. They cannot play lovers. They are awful. But that sort of relationship is earned. The groundwork is there. It's the best possible thing they can do with KC.

[Password]

On the other hand, the ropes are so thick that 1) I feel a tad insulted by the obvious attempt at manipulation so I find myself unable to get behind Ray/Felicity and 2) their relationship suffers because, imo, it's "written". And it shows.

Therefore, it suffers the comparison with Oliver/Felicity because the latter was "born" from a combination of writing, chemistry between the actors, and magic of television.

 

The bold, italics are pretty much how I feel. As much as I enjoy babbling, dorky Ray the entire thing is very scripted. Like the scene at the elevator, as much as I enjoyed it, I couldn't help thinking "Oh ok they want me to compare and contrast Oliver's cold stoicism with Ray's open understanding" and if that happens, it doesn't feel organic. And I also feel manipulated. What Ray did from the beginning put me off him as a person but episode 3, after he got what he wanted (no one can convince me otherwise) it seemed far easier for him to slip back into awkward babbling, work too much Ray. Someone whom is likable, in contrast to someone whom is manipulative, deceptive and stalker-y.

 

However, I really just don't think Laurel and Oliver will happen again. Nope, the premiere convinced me we're going in a different direction concerning romantic relationships.

[dtissagirl]

If they spin-off Palmer, Felicity will visit his show a couple of times like she's gonna do tonight on The Flash, then come back to Arrow right after, and one of the EPs will post an obviously desperate DEMAGE CONTROL tweet "please stop telling me there's not enough Oliver/Felicity on Arrow right now you annoying 'shippers who 'ship, she'll be back next week and they'll have some eye sex OKAY."

[CarBe]

 

To send her with him, I don't know yet, but I'm convinced that they're testing the waters to see if they could "free" Oliver without antagonizing the legions (it seems they are) of Felicity fans.

I think so, too - definitely testing "freeing" him. However, I don't know if they will push him to Laurel again since the majority of fans of the show really dislike the character/actress. Also, sexual tension keeps a show interesting so once the hot male lead has settled down with whomever shows get boring.

 

I wonder if they will just leave Oliver free. He seems so damaged and hasn't really evolved too much over the course of the show thus far. I mean, he slept with Isabel in Russia, right in front of Felicity when he knew KNEW she had a major crush on him. It was such a dick Oliver-the-Player thing to do. He also put Felicity in serious danger in the finale by making her Slade's bait - Slade/Deathstroke, the biggest baddie of them all.  If he truly loved her would he have done that? Then the writers skipped ahead in the season premiere and all of a sudden Oliver was in love (but didn't know it) and they didn't show us any of it. Oliver and Felicity were very touchy feely with each other when they had never been like that before. Their closer relationship felt fake and not earned. I really felt the writers were just pandering to the Olicity fans. Check, we threw the shippers a bone and got that out of the way. Now onto what we really want to do. Is an emotionally healthy and happy in love with Felicity Oliver really endgame for them? 

 

 

So, I don't see why they would suddenly develop an interest in Oliver actually waffling between women emotionally.

Isn't that the CW way? Look at Vampire Diaries. Stefan-Elena, Damon-Elena, back and forth. 

 

 

I don't think they're going for a traditional triangle with Ray/Felicity/Oliver. I think they're showing Oliver the contrast between himself and Ray, what Ray represents, etc.

I wouldn't rule it out.  I was a major Olicity shipper from the day she was introduced to the show but Oliver can be a real dick and I am seriously enjoying the Ray/Felicity banter.  Ray will be a major catalyst for Oliver to change if he (the writers) wants Felicity. Ray is a true threat. Oliver didn't see Barry as a threat - Barry was younger, poorer (at the time the character was introduced), lived in another city so Oliver had home court advantage - but Ray is like best version Oliver - rich, nearly as good looking, successful businessman, smart, and hopefully undamaged emotionally (I don't read comics so don't know his back story at all but wouldn't bet against some damage, lol). Ray also really respects and appreciates Felicity's brain - gives her a job commensurate with her education and abilities - and that really has to earn brownie points with her. I don't think I would be super unhappy if Felicity did end up with Ray. She's been pining for Oliver for two years now and he's only given her crumbs, she deserves a guy who treats her right.

Edited October 28, 2014 by CarBe

[Chaser]

I haven't seen anyone jump on the Felicity and Ray train. I've read about some people enjoying the interaction, but only in regards to watching Felicity outside of the Cave and as a stepping stone to Oliver. I've seen more people anti-Ray because of his rather aggressive introduction and because some don't think he is needed to motivate Oliver.

 

I'm really not concerned about people ditching Olicity for Felicity/Ray.

[NumberCruncher]

I'm just going to echo others who doubt they would send Felicity off with Ray to another show.  Why?  Because Arrow needs her.  Putting aside the LI aspect, she is a very popular character with younger women.  Arrow still pulls in more male viewers than women, which makes sense due to the show's nature, but the last thing I think the producers want to do is lose their that demographic.  Some could argue that Thea and Laurel would make up for it, but somehow I really doubt it.  I know more women who are dedicated to the show because of Felicity than those who would watch it otherwise (like I would).

 

I, too, haven't really seen anyone really prefer Ray and Felicity, even if they are liking their banter.  I think their expectation is that Oliver will eventually come around but in the meantime, they want her to have a life rather than sit in the Arrow cave waiting for him because a lot of them view that behavior as demeaning to such a strong female character.

[CarBe]

Yeah, maybe. I've seen a few Raylicity tumblrs. But do the writers care what the fans think so much? From their tweets it seems like they REALLY like the Ray/Felicity/actors chemistry/relationship. Additionally, this is only Ray's third episode. How much Olicity shipping was there by her third appearance?

 

I forgot to add to my earlier post that Oliver often treats Felicity like the help and is very sparing in his praise to her. This last episode was a good example, he's mad the fingerprint lead didn't pan out and he practically rolls his eyes in impatience when she is explaining how she found Thea by pinging her phone. He is impatient with her a lot.  Ray spending $1.2B to get Felicity to work for him, giving her a nice office and her own EA is nice to see him appreciate her. Anyway, whatever the outcome, if Ray's presence drives Oliver to treat Felicity better/show more appreciation for her I'm all for it. I've always felt she was a little shorted by him that way.

[DrSpaceman10]

I was a major Olicity shipper from the day she was introduced to the show but Oliver can be a real dick 

 

This is how I'm starting to feel...I love Felicity, but I'm not really liking Oliver at all this year. I'm not even sure I want them together anymore. I know that Felicity is the best person for Oliver, but I can't say the same thing about Oliver for Felicity.

[NumberCruncher]

Yeah, maybe. I've seen a few Raylicity tumblrs. But do the writers care what the fans think so much? From their tweets it seems like they REALLY like the Ray/Felicity/actors chemistry/relationship. Additionally, this is only Ray's third episode. How much Olicity shipping was there by her third appearance?

Honestly, a lot based on what I saw on Tumblr--pretty much from the moment they met in her office. Admittedly it took me until towards the end of S1 to really see something there, but the Olicity ship was already pretty active from Day 1.

[blixie]

 

I don't think I would be super unhappy if Felicity did end up with Ray. She's been pining for Oliver for two years now and he's only given her crumbs, she deserves a guy who treats her right.

 

Agree. I don't prefer them to Olicity, but for now I'm enjoying that aspect of the show, "stalker" bullshit and all (whatever he is not a stalker, if a GUY had been pursued professionally in the same way, and they almost definitely ARE, no one would bat an eye). Having said that I do think that's Ray's reason de etre to ring Oliver's bell, and get him to understand dating him is not some special gift one day Felicity might get to have. Maybe. When he's worked out all his crap, because that's how PTSD works. One day you work it all out, ALL BETTER, and life turns into golden unicorns and sunsets. I'm expecting light flirtation and maybe one or two dates during Ray's run, but Oliver will fight for Felicity and he'll win, cause I'm pretty sure it's his show.

Edited October 28, 2014 by blixie

[Password]

For me the problem with Ray J is that I can't help but think he has this stamp of "temporary" all over his face. He will temporarily comfort Felicity, temporarily give her a choice between Oliver and he, temporarily give Olicity a headache. I don't praise the way Oliver sometimes treats Felicity, but Mr. Ray bothers me. He bothered me less in episode 3 because he was just dorky, geeky, babbling Ray. But then there's a whole other side to him that spells "sleeze" and regardless of what he does, it makes one wary. I like that he treats Felicity like an intelligent, deserving of all she's received woman. I like that emotionally he's far more open. But at the same time I realise Oliver can be all of those things which brings me back to Ray being: temporary. And with temporary, I can also add the name "plot device". It's too rushed for me to be able to call it organic. Unfortunately the writers have decided this is the way things need to go so I'll see where the story takes us.

 

I think since episode 3 less people are pro Raylicity on tumblr but before they were pretty "whoo Ray". Now many are just waiting for Oliver to get his head out of his butt.

[Nanrad]

Agree. I don't prefer them to Olicity, but for now I'm enjoying that aspect of the show, "stalker" bullshit and all (whatever he is not a stalker, if a GUY had been pursued professionally in the same way, and they almost definitely ARE, no one would bat an eye).

 

There was nothing wrong with Ray going to her job and pursuing her professionally THERE. But, it comes off stalkerish, IMO, to go to the hospital while she's visiting a friend and to buy off her company and imply that you'd do the same for any other company she applies for. That is controlling and manipulative. How many men have that happen to them? So, I would bat an eye because 1 billion is a lot of money--a lot a lot. 

[DrSpaceman10]

Now many are just waiting for Oliver to get his head out of his butt.

 

How is this going to happen though? Is Oliver going to decide (again) he can be with someone he really cares about and then Felicity will jump on him to an Imagine Dragons song (like with O/L in season 1)? Are the writers going to even bother having Oliver "fight" for Felicity, and if so how would they even go about that? 

[Nanrad]

Honestly, I had no issue with Oliver's behavior regarding Felicity predating season 3. Let's assume Felicity has had a crush (and wasn't just fawning over his body) in season one: Oliver was caught up in Laurel during this time. Season 2, I think he was somewhat aware of her feelings, but didn't want to admit it because it would force him to acknowledge his own feelings, so he tried to pretend it didn't exist and live life as if he didn't know. Sure he can be a dick, but his reluctance to acknowledge or even entertain his own feelings for Felicity doesn't make Oliver undeserving, it makes him a flawed person who is still trying to work through the five years of hell he went through before he came home. Whether it be through death or having a falling out, Oliver has a lot to lose if he pursues something with her. He loses a partner, friend, and lover. 

 

And, yes, his behavior has been douchey so far, but I just see Oliver as a person who has difficulty, but is learning how to deal with intense emotions and emotionally trying situations. Does that mean Felicity should wait for him? No. Does that make him undeserving? Not necessarily. It's unacceptable behavior, but just because he's off of the island doesn't mean he's emotionally dealt with what happen during that time. As others mentioned, he hasn't gone to therapy and people only know about his time there in bits and pieces. He's struggling to deal with it on his own, but won't admit to needing help or doesn't even realize it. So, it'd be better off if they didn't date so Oliver can work on himself due to his trauma.

[NumberCruncher]

Oliver will come around, but ultimately I think it's going to be Felicity's decision, not his. She was the one who walked away. I could imagine a scenario where she realizes that what she thinks is perfect (i.e. the situation with Ray) really isn't--especially when she finds out

he's The Atom

.

Edited October 28, 2014 by NumberCruncher

[quarks]

"stalker" bullshit and all (whatever he is not a stalker, if a GUY had been pursued professionally in the same way, and they almost definitely ARE, no one would bat an eye).

 

 

The show, in script, has described the behavior as stalking, and I definitely would be batting more than an eye if the gender roles were reversed.