LeighAn February 1, 2017 Share February 1, 2017 Do Emily's eyebrows look like they've been cosmetically darkened? Link to comment
Guest February 1, 2017 Share February 1, 2017 (edited) Anyway, fingers crossed for a Delicity scene later. If we have to put up with BC whatever number she is, the least they can do is give us a Delicity scene. Fanservice me! Edited February 1, 2017 by Guest Link to comment
Lady Calypso February 1, 2017 Share February 1, 2017 I feel like I'm kind of chill about this whole Tina/Dinah thing right now, which is weird. Maybe it's me not caring about the show anymore, but I've kind of resigned myself to it all happening. I mean, I am fairly confident that none of it will last. Comics fans may say that they just want a GA/BC or Dinah Drake/Oliver Queen romance, but most just want KC and SA. Those fans are not going to be happy about this. Olicity fans are not going to be happy about this. There's two sides of the fandom pissed off before it even starts. MG doesn't realize how much of a shitshow he started by casting a new BC and shitting on Laurel Lance/KC fans in the process, as well as Olicity fans. I mean, he just derailed his own show by doing it. I may not be a Laurel Lance fan, but I'm not blaming her fans for being pissed off. In my opinion, it's way too late to be trying to correct the BC mistake. Them going back on it now, in season 5, could be the mistake that really puts an end to the show next season. They're putting all their eggs into one basket and I do think it'll backfire. Most people I've seen online are not willing to give Tina a chance. I will because I do want to see a female superhero/vigilante that's done well, but let's face it. It's probably not going to be done well in the first place. At this point, I'm just going to sit back, relax, and watch the audience explode for this second half of the season. I mean, they've already ruined it for me with Wild Dong getting his own flashback. It took Felicity three seasons to get her own flashback, and it took Diggle until season 2 to get his own flashback. I still don't get why Wild Dong is so special that he gets all of his own emotional moments, he gets to be everyone's best friend, and now he gets his own flashback episode just over a half a season into his appearance. Plus, now I don't feel the need to watch Arrow right away. I already missed one episode this season and didn't look back. With all of the spoilers coming out for the second half, I'm cool with skimming the rest of the season. Also, I don't know if anyone disproved the Rory dies/leaves in episode 12 theory, but if this is true, then it just adds another reason for me quitting after this season. 6 Link to comment
Chaser February 1, 2017 Share February 1, 2017 I had a lot of goodwill towards 'Tina'. Another female character, potential friend to Felicity. Total open mind. But this did a lot of damage to that. This is so stupid. 18 Link to comment
catrox14 February 1, 2017 Share February 1, 2017 Who says "Lovers" these days? I mean that was all the rage back in the 70s...but not now. And especially Oliver? Of course , all I can imagine is SA saying "LUHVASSssss" a la SNL with Will Farrell and Rachel Dratch and it certainly makes it better. But truly Oliver's rationale here is so inorganic. I get deathbed extortion tactics that guilt trip a person but this is not what Oliver is saying. He's saying it's a person WORTHY of Laurel's legacy and that is the pill I can't swallow v a standard deathbed promise which he kind of already fulfilled with honoring Laurel with a statue and trying to train Evelyn. It's not really HIS fault that she was a mole for Prometheus. There was no hint that after he and Felicity broke that there was anything percolating for him towards Laurel so much so that he's going suddenly spout "SHE MUST BE WORTHY of Laurel" as though he's had this total and complete reversal of attitude towards Laurel given SA's "NOPE" face with Laurel. The only thing the show did was have Laurel give him her picture...again and him saying 'You still have it?" , without him asking "How she has it?" unless I am forgetting something. OHHH wait, was there a magical herb on that picture that Oliver touched that made him think Laurel is the bestest best to ever best? New headcanon accepted! I just don't get it. It's more inorganic than Laurel becoming Black Canary. YMMV etc 2 Link to comment
insomniadreams88 February 1, 2017 Share February 1, 2017 1 minute ago, Chaser said: I had a lot of goodwill towards 'Tina'. Another female character, potential friend to Felicity. Total open mind. But this did a lot of damage to that. This is so stupid. As soon as they started promoting "Tina" is "Oliver's equal," I lost a lot of the hope I had for the character. Plus, considering they can't even show us Felicity and Thea are friends - and didn't show us that Felicity and Laurel were friends even though they clearly wanted that to come across on-screen somehow - seeing Felicity and "Tina" as friends didn't seem likely. Right now, I'm really worried about what this is going to mean for the characters of Felicity, Diggle, Thea and Lance moving forward. If they decide they want to do their comic book story for S6, where does that leave the four of them? They've lifted Diggle right out of the story more than once already this season by throwing him in jail/confining him to the lair. They could easily have him decide to take a step back to spend time with his family once the General storyline is wrapped up. They seem to forget Thea and Lance exist too often this season. And I can really see them having Felicity be the one to leave in May after Prometheus is taken care of if they make JH a series regular for season 6. Then we can come back after the summer and have had GA/BC working together for months. 9 Link to comment
Morrigan2575 February 1, 2017 Author Share February 1, 2017 24 minutes ago, LeighAn said: Do Emily's eyebrows look like they've been cosmetically darkened? They look darker. Link to comment
Mrs. de Winter February 1, 2017 Share February 1, 2017 10 minutes ago, Chaser said: I had a lot of goodwill towards 'Tina'. Another female character, potential friend to Felicity. Total open mind. But this did a lot of damage to that. This is so stupid. So much this. If I gave idiots in charge any credit I would think they have set the bar so low for female characters this season (baby bird, removing Thea, bring Laurel back) to try and stack the deck so people will love America's Next Black Canary. I should not have to lower my standards this far in order to find something positive in her. Link to comment
LeighAn February 1, 2017 Share February 1, 2017 2 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said: They look darker. I wonder what for? Someone asked Echo if the dark eyebrows are a return of Gothlicity and he said you'd have to watch and see so I'm guessing it's intentional. Link to comment
Chaser February 1, 2017 Share February 1, 2017 Maybe she is going undercover to meet with her cohorts. Link to comment
Cleanqueen February 1, 2017 Share February 1, 2017 I like that they're giving us all her backstory in one episode. Good, she can stay in the background until Cisco makes her a costume. I know a lot of people are concerned but I honestly think they want just that partnership and nothing more. The actress isn't exceptional to me, so I don't see her wowing anyone with her acting skills even her fight scenes don't look that great to me. So I think if most people keep hating her then Berlanti can be like "see we tried, nobody wants this" Also KC must've really pissed them off with her legal suit if they turned around and did this instead. 9 Link to comment
LeighAn February 1, 2017 Share February 1, 2017 8 minutes ago, Chaser said: Maybe she is going undercover to meet with her cohorts. Dark BOP. Kelly Hu is back Link to comment
ComicFan777 February 1, 2017 Share February 1, 2017 It feels like the writing is on the wall with Tina actually being Dinah Drake with a real canary cry, a backstory very similar to comic Dinah Drake, and having an instant connection with Oliver (almost sounds like destiny) combined with the direction the show has taken this season towards action and comics. I hope that the non-comic canon characters aren't going to be sidelined to give more screentime for comic canon ones. With every new mask, it feels like they are moving towards fully rebooting the show to all comics. If that ends up being the case, I won't be sticking around to watch a show I barely recognize anymore. 15 Link to comment
ladylaw99 February 1, 2017 Share February 1, 2017 Wow that was alot of pages to get through. I thought I would have alot of feelings about this. If these spoilers are all true and we will find out soon enough, these writers have managed to make me not care. I can't stop shaking my head at how stupid this all is. I wanted to like Tina or what ever her name is, but there is only so much stupidity I can take from a show. Then you throw Rory into the mix and I am just baffled. I am liking more and more the thought of Felicity going on her own, there is a ff button for a reason and it looks like I will be doing alot of it again. 4 Link to comment
Lady Calypso February 1, 2017 Share February 1, 2017 Honestly, there's not much to like about this show now for me. If they could take Rory and Felicity and put them either onto another spinoff or just send them to The Flash or Legends or even Supergirl, then I can stop watching this show. I like Diggle, but he's now there to be in jail and to be Wild Dong's Buddy. I like Stephen Amell and I used to like Oliver, but now he's not enough for me to continue watching. I'm really only here now for Felicity and Felicity/Rory, but they might not be enough anymore, not with the way this show is going. My dream is that Rory goes to join Legends next season and Felicity joins Supergirl. Then I can stop watching Arrow and two of my favourite characters will be on my two favourite DC shows, ones that will write these characters well. 1 Link to comment
Guest February 1, 2017 Share February 1, 2017 (edited) My concern is: just how much of an equal are they going to make Tina? Is she gonna come in and take Diggle's and Felicity's place as his true partners simply because comics? I will be really pissed if it becomes the GA/BC show when that's never been what works on this show. Sorry but Tina suddenly becoming Oliver's true partner halfway through the fifth season just doesn't feel earned at all. Also, the fact that Oliver somehow thinks she's worthy of Laurel's legacy (which still makes me LOL) simply because she can fight, has the canary cry and is called Dinah is just a joke. And super creepy. Women (and BC) really are interchangeable on this show. This is just messy. I'm waiting until we know for sure but they're definitely making it easier for me to drop the show now. Edited February 1, 2017 by Guest Link to comment
Trisha February 1, 2017 Share February 1, 2017 2 hours ago, AyChihuahua said: General audience? I don't think they mostly care that much about specific issues. Agreed. Judging by all the angry replies to yesterday's CW_Arrow's tweet and the responses under that Reddit spoilers, comic fans are disengaging -- but they've never really seemed to impact ratings anyway. Same with Olicity fans (though they do impact social buzz). So what's left is the general audience, who are probably more indifferent to Dinah. I think that your theory that the show is at least going to test or hint at a potential GA/BC connection keeps seeming more and more likely with every new spoiler, unless the ratings completely bottom out in the spring. Though if they're already filming 517, they're presumably writing the final few eps now so I don't know how much wiggle room they'll have to course-correct this season. 3 Link to comment
apinknightmare February 1, 2017 Share February 1, 2017 SA mentioned that Oliver was going to being some situations coming up where he thought he'd be more effective as mayor than Green Arrow, so I wonder if they're marketing her as an equal so that there's a built-in explanation for having a good fighter in the field with the team while he's off being mayor. 2 Link to comment
ladylaw99 February 1, 2017 Share February 1, 2017 At this point Thea should be mayor since she seems to be doing all the work, that way Oliver can stay in the field and we won't need BC. Wishful thinking on my part. 3 Link to comment
AyChihuahua February 1, 2017 Share February 1, 2017 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Trisha said: Agreed. Judging by all the angry replies to yesterday's CW_Arrow's tweet and the responses under that Reddit spoilers, comic fans are disengaging -- but they've never really seemed to impact ratings anyway. Same with Olicity fans (though they do impact social buzz). So what's left is the general audience, who are probably more indifferent to Dinah. I think that your theory that the show is at least going to test or hint at a potential GA/BC connection keeps seeming more and more likely with every new spoiler, unless the ratings completely bottom out in the spring. Though if they're already filming 517, they're presumably writing the final few eps now so I don't know how much wiggle room they'll have to course-correct this season. I can seriously hear the EPs' interviews already: "Well, we're certainly interested in exploring that chemistry that they have." As soon as they trot out the word chemistry, it's happening, in some form. (I am and have been 99% sure they'll test it, but I'm currently about 60% sure they'll really go there. I think it depends on the response to her/them, BUT I've always believed that they almost certainly chem-tested her and SA, so their chem is probably at least fine.) Re where they are in writing/filming, I doubt that anything huge is going to happen this season either way, so they can just add "moments" bw GA/BC and also "moments" bw Oliver and Felicity. Unless it's a major plot point they can keep setting it up to go either way all season long. They'll certainly have an idea of the response to her in time to shut it down in the last few episodes and reunite O/F if Tina is a huge fail, and conversely can just keep it open-ended if she's at least a minor success. In 323 Felicity woke from Oliver fake-killing her at the beginning of the episode and dropped everything to run away with him in the end of the episode. They could legit have Oliver and Felicity elope at the end of the season, in a two-minute tacked-on finale scene. They are very strange writers who mostly fail properly to set things up. Edited February 1, 2017 by AyChihuahua 5 Link to comment
way2interested February 1, 2017 Share February 1, 2017 Regardless of what ends up happening and given the likeliness of the spoiler being true, I'm kind of at least weirdly happy to be spoiled this now, like Felicity's bf. I'd rather not be surprised with Tinah. 4 Link to comment
Cleanqueen February 1, 2017 Share February 1, 2017 In terms of Chemistry, I am sure the actress will go above and beyond to make it seem like she has chemistry with SA. The only other question is how much Stephen reciprocates the chemistry. Even if it's tested there is no guarantee that it'll land on screen. GREG on olicity: I can't imagine there's anyone who can replace each other in their lives. Laurel is interchangeable but Felicity isn't. So I am going with this that Tina isn't a love interest for Oliver. 6 Link to comment
ladylaw99 February 1, 2017 Share February 1, 2017 SA has got ok chem with some people but he lacks exciting chem with most, that of course is my opinion because chem is different for people. 4 Link to comment
insomniadreams88 February 1, 2017 Share February 1, 2017 17 minutes ago, Angel12d said: My concern is: just how much of an equal are they going to make Tina? Is she gonna come in and take Diggle's and Felicity's place as his true partners simply because comics? I will be really pissed if it becomes the GA/BC show when that's never been what works on this show. Sorry but Tina suddenly becoming Oliver's true partner halfway through the fifth season just doesn't feel earned at all. Yeah, sometimes this season I feel like they just don't care about the first 4 seasons of the show. And I'm going to feel like that if they make JH a series regular for S6 because that'll give me an idea of what they could have planned. Knowing that "Tina" is actually Dinah, I'm even more annoyed that her introduction is coming just as Felicity's arc is beginning. 2 minutes ago, way2interested said: Regardless of what ends up happening and given the likeliness of the spoiler being true, I'm kind of at least weirdly happy to be spoiled this now, like Felicity's bf. I'd rather not be surprised with Tinah. Yeah, this season, I'd rather be spoiled for every episode going in like this. Softens the blow. 6 Link to comment
Morrigan2575 February 1, 2017 Author Share February 1, 2017 18 minutes ago, apinknightmare said: SA mentioned that Oliver was going to being some situations coming up where he thought he'd be more effective as mayor than Green Arrow, so I wonder if they're marketing her as an equal so that there's a built-in explanation for having a good fighter in the field with the team while he's off being mayor. Honestly I think it's the other way around. They're moving Oliver out of GA at least in 12, 13 & possibly more. We know he's back in the suit by 517 at least for a bit. 3 Link to comment
calliope1975 February 1, 2017 Share February 1, 2017 You know, I'm far less upset about all of this nonsense than I would be, which tells me how far this show has fallen in my esteem. I'm not even positive Olicity is done, but I am positive that with the all-in with Reporter coming up and now this, I'll be watching very few scenes if any. Olicity's my OTP, and Felicity Smoak is one of my top 3 characters of all time, but lol, no. I won't be sticking around to watch BC 12.0 or whatever they'll do when this inevitably doesn't work for me. I have S1 - 4 and some really good current AUs and old stories saved on my hard drive, and that might have to be enough. I'm even excited for Paley now, because the spin on all of this will be glorious and mindbogglingly dumb. My hope is that they can throw some floaties on this sinking ship, but I don't have confidence TIIC would know how to inflate one. Thanks Reddit Person for the spoilers! You win the Internet today. 20 Link to comment
apinknightmare February 1, 2017 Share February 1, 2017 6 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said: Honestly I think it's the other way around. They're moving Oliver out of GA at least in 12, 13 & possibly more. We know he's back in the suit by 517 at least for a bit. I'm not sure what you mean by it's the other way around? I just meant that I think they're making her an Oliver- level fighter so that there's an experienced fighter out in the field when he's not around and is off doing mayor stuff. 1 Link to comment
statsgirl February 1, 2017 Share February 1, 2017 13 hours ago, LeighAn said: All they ever did was have Oliver argue and dismiss Laurel. He never deferred power and respect to her in the same way he does with Felicity and Diggle when it comes to Team Arrow business. Oliver also did with Felicity early on. She had to earn her right to be heard. Diggle was brought on as Sage Mentor so he didn't. I'm trying to catch up on the many pages you've guys have been saying but my 2 cents is that GB & Company are going All In on the Black Canary now. The show is 5 years old, it's not going to last much longer, especially with those ratings, so this is their last chance to produce a true Black Canary for WB/DC. If she doesn't work out, no problem, they'll have her recurring and the show will be over soon anyway. 9 hours ago, Mellowyellow said: Errr Guys?? This is bad for Olicity right if that dialogue is true???? I think they would be idiots to kill Olicity for a potential character that they don't even know if the audience will take to, especially since the last two Black Canaries (Laurel and Evelyn) have been huge fails. That's not to say that they won't do it, just that they would be stupid to. 7 hours ago, MaisyDaisy said: Will the comic crowd be pleased they are getting Dinah, or upset that Laurel just lifted right out to make way for her? I think they'll be pleased that they're finally getting the true Black Canary/Green Arrow story they've been wanting. (Notice the order I put that in..) I suspect those will be mostly the guys. The KC fans (mostly women I suspect) will be upset . 4 Link to comment
AyChihuahua February 1, 2017 Share February 1, 2017 24 minutes ago, ladylaw99 said: SA has got ok chem with some people but he lacks exciting chem with most, that of course is my opinion because chem is different for people. I totally agree, which is why I think they'd be idiots not to have chem-tested them. (Even if she wasn't going to be an LI...he had terrible chem with KC even as a colleague and "friend.") 1 Link to comment
Trisha February 1, 2017 Share February 1, 2017 Even BFS (who has been banging the 'Felicity is getting her own arc' drum) is gushing about the new comic book connections. Sigh. Link to comment
Midnight Lullaby February 1, 2017 Share February 1, 2017 He doesn't really know the self proclaimed comics readers that watch Arrow and are on twitter does he? MG's mentions should give him an idea, LOL. Link to comment
insomniadreams88 February 1, 2017 Share February 1, 2017 Yep, Reddit spoiler 100% confirmed. And what about those who have been a fan of the show for the past 4+ seasons? Do they even care about/remember those fans anymore? 6 Link to comment
ComicFan777 February 1, 2017 Share February 1, 2017 I was a little surprised because I expected the comic fans to be rejoicing, but I saw quite a few comic fans actually unhappy with Tina being Dinah Drake because they felt duped that a random person was slapped with the comic canon name and meta cry to fit the part when it's the name that belongs to Laurel's mom. 6 Link to comment
Guest February 1, 2017 Share February 1, 2017 5 minutes ago, Trisha said: Even BFS (who has been banging the 'Felicity is getting her own arc' drum) is gushing about the new comic book connections. Sigh. LOL. Oh dear. Says it all. Link to comment
ladylaw99 February 1, 2017 Share February 1, 2017 well that settles it - everytime they pump something up it is guarantee I will hate it. 1 Link to comment
catrox14 February 1, 2017 Share February 1, 2017 My gods. Are they TRYING to destroy the show. My only hope is that Tina/Dinah is a mini-arc that fulfills the comics canon with the name Dinah Drake and she just leaves town and that's that. I can buy this being a set up for a BoP spinoff or something. But man, if they really are going with actual GA/BC romance in Arrow well....alrighty then. Good luck picking up the pieces of this mess. 7 Link to comment
insomniadreams88 February 1, 2017 Share February 1, 2017 5 minutes ago, ComicFan777 said: I was a little surprised because I expected the comic fans to be rejoicing, but I saw quite a few comic fans actually unhappy with Tina being Dinah Drake because they felt duped that a random person was slapped with the comic canon name and meta cry to fit the part when it's the name that belongs to Laurel's mom. They probably forgot about that. 1 Link to comment
way2interested February 1, 2017 Share February 1, 2017 The funny thing is if it weren't for the reddit spoilers, I would have assumed he meant something about Talia, who still has my interest in this episode. This is some weird logic to tweet that right now after the newest spoilers meltdown. 1 Link to comment
Starfish35 February 1, 2017 Share February 1, 2017 Did they ever actually confirm onscreen that Laurel's mother's maiden name was Drake? I can't remember. I just wondered if it might end up being a Sandra/Samantha thing, where Samantha was totally supposed to be Sandra Hawke, but they got lucky in never actually having confirmed that onscreen. Link to comment
Morrigan2575 February 1, 2017 Author Share February 1, 2017 32 minutes ago, apinknightmare said: I'm not sure what you mean by it's the other way around? I just meant that I think they're making her an Oliver- level fighter so that there's an experienced fighter out in the field when he's not around and is off doing mayor stuff. Oh sorry, I just meant that I thought the motivation was reversed. They're not making Tina an Oliver level person to justify exploring the Mayor story. Rather they're using the Mayor story and moving Oliver out of the suit to justify Tina's story. But, I could be totally wrong about that. 2 Link to comment
Trisha February 1, 2017 Share February 1, 2017 4 minutes ago, catrox14 said: My gods. Are they TRYING to destroy the show. I would love to read some kind of oral history on what the heck went on BTS leading into this season. Yes, 4B was a disaster but every attempt to get this show back on track has been baffling. It'll be interesting to see if the review sites like AV Club and IGN who keep talking about how the show has "rebounded" will continue to feel that way when we fall down another BC rabbit hole. Every time they introduce yet another new character on this show, I keep thinking about The Simpsons' Poochie... 3 Link to comment
Morrigan2575 February 1, 2017 Author Share February 1, 2017 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Starfish35 said: Did they ever actually confirm onscreen that Laurel's mother's maiden name was Drake? I can't remember. I just wondered if it might end up being a Sandra/Samantha thing, where Samantha was totally supposed to be Sandra Hawke, but they got lucky in never actually having confirmed that onscreen. I don't know if they ever stated that Dinah Lance was Dinah Drake first but it was heavily implied. I mean they even went the extra distance in S2 with stating Quentin's middle name was Larry, to give that extra Comics connection. Dinah Drake married Larry Lance and had Dinah Laurel Lance. To just go back and be like oh ho, Dinah Lance's maiden name was Dixon not Dinah Drake so we're totally NOT pulling Dinah Drake the Younger out of our ass's is kind of insulting to me. Edited February 1, 2017 by Morrigan2575 2 Link to comment
apinknightmare February 1, 2017 Share February 1, 2017 3 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said: Oh sorry, I just meant that I thought the motivation was reversed. They're not making Tina an Oliver level person to justify exploring the Mayor story. Rather they're using the Mayor story and moving Oliver out of the suit to justify Tina's story. But, I could be totally wrong about that. Oh yeah! I agree. I wasn't really thinking that about the story motivations but more why they'd be pushing the equals thing so hard - I thought it was probably because she's gonna be out in the field with the newbies sans Oliver, not necessarily because of any leadership or decision-making responsibilities on the team. Link to comment
Starfish35 February 1, 2017 Share February 1, 2017 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said: I don't know if they ever stated that Dinah Lance was Dinah Drake first but it was heavily implied. I mean they even went the extra distance in S2 with stating Quentin's middle name was Larry, to give that extra Comics connection. Dinah Drake married Larry Lance and had Dinah Laurel Lance. To just go back and be like oh hox Dinah Lance's maiden name was Dixon not Dinah Drake so we're totally NOT pulling Dinah Drake the Younger out of our ass's is kind of insulting to me. Yeah, I know she was supposed to be the Dinah Drake of this story (minus the Black Canary history), just like Quentin was Larry. But I couldn't remember if that had ever been explicitly stated with her like it was with Quentin (Quentin Larry Lance). But yes, it's a total retcon. No arguments from me on that. I guess I just find it more LOL-worthy than insulting. Edited February 1, 2017 by Starfish35 1 Link to comment
Velocity23 February 1, 2017 Share February 1, 2017 So Canadagraphs big juice reveal was the Dinah Drake spoiler. Link to comment
Starfish35 February 1, 2017 Share February 1, 2017 7 minutes ago, Velocity23 said: So Canadagraphs big juice reveal was the Dinah Drake spoiler. What was it that he had said? I can't remember. Link to comment
Chaser February 1, 2017 Share February 1, 2017 When's the next convention? I need someone to break down the stupidity of this to SA and DR. I need the expressions. 1 Link to comment
lemotomato February 1, 2017 Share February 1, 2017 (edited) Paleyfest (March 18), then HVFF Chicago (March 25) Edited February 1, 2017 by lemotomato 1 Link to comment
Sunshine February 1, 2017 Share February 1, 2017 Not until late March so about 6 or so episodes away. Link to comment
Morrigan2575 February 1, 2017 Author Share February 1, 2017 2 minutes ago, Starfish35 said: What was it that he had said? I can't remember. Just that he had a juicy spoiler that he couldn't reveal Link to comment
Recommended Posts