Spoiler Discussion Thread

[kismet]

The thing about the moonlighting curse, is there is some truth to it on a certain level - if the show becomes about the couple. Castle is a very good modern example of a show that was built around the dynamic of a duo. That duo went from platonic to romantic because the chemistry and the story led them to that place. The show whether it intended to or not became about their dynamic. It was a procedural with serial elements. However, remove one piece or remove the couple and the show becomes no longer viable in many viewers eyes.

Arrow is not a procedural. Nor is it purely a serialized drama. And it is definitely not a soap opera (good or bad). Most importantly, it is not a show that has molded and built itself around the dynamic of a couple. Nor should the show aim to be all about O/F or their coupledom. Keeping O/F stable, happy and drama free does not in one way or the other predetermine the success of the show. However, the manipulating the couple for plot purposes does threaten to destabilize the show if the drama gets to be overwhelming to the narrative. Using their relationship to pivot all of your major storylines is not a wise plan - you simultaneously piss off the people who love & hate the coupling. Plus if you suck at romance, it only shows your flaws. Mishandling of the couple does contribute to a potential failure of the show. Arrow has so many different things to offer that it should be able to sustain a stable lead couple. In fact, an unstable drama prone couple for me is more problematic for a hero's story.

I guess based upon what @dtissagirl posted I'm glad I never watched a lot of the Whedonverse. And if her prediction is right perhaps s6 will finally give us an indication of O/F future once we're off the flashback structure.

[dtissagirl]

LOL, Joss just builds relationships so he can ruin them. It's will they/yes, but then they'll die. It's awesome.

[AyChihuahua]

4 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

LOL, Joss just builds relationships so he can ruin them. It's will they/yes, but then they'll die. It's awesome.

To be fair, the twist of Angel turning back into Angelus after sleeping with Buffy was FRIGGING GENIUS. Awesome as both metaphor and plot twist.

[statsgirl]

The threat of Angel turning into Angelus was the best reason I've ever heard for keeping the couple from being together. Farscape's two Crichton's was the best idea for keeping a couple apart after putting them together.

12 hours ago, kismet said:

If I was writing for laughs I would have him open up running on a tread mill while multitasking some mayoral stuff.

I think that would be the perfect into for who Oliver is at the start of s5.  On the island in s1, ditto trying to save Felicity s2 (i forget what s3 was) and morning run in Ivy Town for s5.  The treadmill and imprisoned by admin work would be perfect for s5.

8 hours ago, AyChihuahua said:

Why is it necessary to the story that they try to move on?

I really think putting either/both in relationships with other people is a big mistake. The writers already did a lot of damage to them as the OTP, and this is just more.

Something I can agree with you 100%. 

In the Austialian show doing p.r. for TMNT2, the one question the audience could ask was whether Oliver and Felicity will get together again and he replied without hesitation "No", and now he's doing the "they can still be good friends without romance" stuff.  I think he's feeling free to troll because Olicity is so set, although I'm starting to have doubts now.

But I think it would weaken Olicity hero's journey as a theme of the show and weaken the show itself so I hope they EPs don't think they have to go back to stall ships for the characters again.

If they're smart, Felicity's new boyfriend is the mail clerk who has a crush on her.

[AyChihuahua]

So with all his travelling, what are the chances that SA and Carly Pope have even met? Man, if the plan is to have their characters date, without chem-testing the actors...I will laugh and laugh, bc that will show that the EPs are truly stupid and utterly incapable of learning from their mistakes.

[Thundercatmary]

Or proof that it's not intended to be long term/significant. Who knows really lol.

[lemotomato]

10 minutes ago, AyChihuahua said:

So with all his travelling, what are the chances that SA and Carly Pope have even met? Man, if the plan is to have their characters date, without chem-testing the actors...I will laugh and laugh, bc that will show that the EPs are truly stupid and utterly incapable of learning from their mistakes.

That's what I thought too, but SA took a social media break for about a month, so he could have been in LA for chem testing at the time.

Edited July 5, 2016 by lemotomato

[statsgirl]

Do we know that Oliver and the new reporter will be dating or is that just speculation?

[foreverevolving]

8 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Do we know that Oliver and the new reporter will be dating or is that just speculation?

i'm like 98% sure it's pure speculation, that may turn out to be real.

And to add fuel, i'm totally okay with both Oliver and Felicity sating other people. Oliver fucked up royally.. I think they both need romantic time apart and to get to know each other on a friendly level (and for Oliver to show he has learn from this fuck up and learn to truly share with Felicity) before I can with a whole heart be able to accept them back together.

Right now: they both needs proper time apart to grow and dating other people will help that.... And I totally feel like I wrote the exact same line at some point in Season 3....

[BkWurm1]

This "boyfriend" that Felicity has doesn't have to be anything that has progressed past going out a few times.  Going out does not automatically mean sleeping together.  There is casual dating that involves sex but there's plenty where casual actually means not getting intimate.  In any way.  And I will cling to that possibility unless giving graphic proof otherwise.  (For either of them if they date)

Felicity isn't a woman that needs a man or needs to be in love but she might need a relaxing evening out with someone that comes with no baggage and is not anything deep she needs to worry about since her heart isn't anywhere near ready for anyone new. 

But the mere appearance of her going out regularly would be enough to earn a "boyfriend" title from Oliver from his perspective. 

In the end, we really don't know anything past they don't start the season together, but once I realized they weren't ending the season together, I was sure they wouldn't.  Last season started so promisingly but veered off to a terrible place and ended really meh.  Maybe this year it will start without much to look forward to and build into something great. 

I'm not bothered by the idea of Felicity or Oliver sharing company with someone else because it's IMO not a reflection on their feelings for each other but the DENIAL of their feelings for each other.  Dating anyone else would be a pretense they are trying to pull over on themselves and I can buy into that for both of them.  They already are acting like nothing ever happened between them so pretending they can move on fits right in, but it won't last and in the meantime, it isn't a reflection on the depth of their feelings except perhaps that Felicity would be too terrified of trying again because how could you ever expect to recover enough to stay in each other's life if it failed a second time?  Denial and fear and compartmentalizing.  None of that means they aren't it for each other. 

Edited July 5, 2016 by BkWurm1

[Thundercatmary]

Idk but so far i've not had much to look forward to this coming season. I'm also kinda annoyed the way some see to dismiss Olicity, like look here their still friends so that's good enough right? Sorry nope for me that's not good enough and there's no way they can walk them back from how far they've taken them, at least for me.

I will give this next season a few episodes before I drop it altogether though, I promised a friend I'd keep watching with her for now. :p

Edited July 5, 2016 by Thundercatmary

[Password]

Yeah I think any and all speculation on my part is reserved until the premiere. Nothing I've heard has been promising except maybe the Bratva flashbacks but, I'll judge it when I see it. 

I will say I'm so freaking bored of couples who date others whilst being in denial. Like, just go away. 

Edited July 5, 2016 by Password
Because speciation and speculation =/=

[TimetravellingBW]

10 hours ago, kismet said:

The thing about the moonlighting curse, is there is some truth to it on a certain level - if the show becomes about the couple. 

Arrow is not a procedural. Nor is it purely a serialized drama. And it is definitely not a soap opera (good or bad). Most importantly, it is not a show that has molded and built itself around the dynamic of a couple. Nor should the show aim to be all about O/F or their coupledom. Keeping O/F stable, happy and drama free does not in one way or the other predetermine the success of the show. However, the manipulating the couple for plot purposes does threaten to destabilize the show if the drama gets to be overwhelming to the narrative. Using their relationship to pivot all of your major storylines is not a wise plan - you simultaneously piss off the people who love & hate the coupling. Plus if you suck at romance, it only shows your flaws. Mishandling of the couple does contribute to a potential failure of the show. Arrow has so many different things to offer that it should be able to sustain a stable lead couple. In fact, an unstable drama prone couple for me is more problematic for a hero's story.

Yes to all of this. The writers really haven't realized that making Oliver and Felicity the source of the drama is the worst possible route to go. It annoys Olicity fans, it annoys anti-Olicity fans, it annoys neutral fans who don't watch the show for the relationships. I don't know who the writers are targeting with their terrible romantic angst but they're staying quiet in their appreciation of it. It's not like Arrow is a show without other sources of drama or excitement. Mine drama from the villains and the stresses of living a double life and Oliver's dark past, and let Olicity be the stable aspect of the show, as they were in S1, S2 and 4a. (Periods when, FYI writers, the pairing was popular).  

I also think there's an element of truth in Felicity's character suffering from losing her funnier, comic relief aspects from S3 onwards. I don't think her character should be pigeonholed into "the funny girl" and not allowed to develop layers or express her feelings, but the fact she was snarky and funny and awkward and added lightness to the show was a big appeal of Felicity initially and the writers have killed it through throwing on Olicity angst relentlessly. 

But joining in not being enthused for Season 5. I don't know how the show lost everything that made Season 1 and 2 so good, but it has and Arrow is now an awkward mesh of a run-of-the-mill action show and poorly written soap opera. 

Edited July 5, 2016 by TimetravellingBW

[hogwash]

Man, I'm out of the loop (might be a good thing). They might begin dating other people?? While working together alone as Team Arrow?? I don't wanna see that. The last time they decided to give Felicity a boyfriend it turned out to be Ray Palmer. 

I like that S04 didn't turn me into a ball of ranting rage (thanks, S03!) but I still feel like pretty much everything that happened after Vixen helped depower Darhk was a waste of time. So, I got no hopes for S05 either. I just want to see Oliver and Felicity make out, Malcolm Merlyn getting decapitated, the Diggle clan being BAMFs, maybe a Thea/Roy team-up, and Laurel staying deader than dead. Other than that, eh. 

[Chaser]

So far the only thing that I've really side eyed is the paperweight and SA saying his relationship with Lance is the most interesting of the first two episodes because that implies more ST LL and I'm not about that.

The villain stuff I'm good with. The new vigilantes I'm in wait and see mode. I like the world building they are doing with the new characters. 

The potential new love interest(s) is my ugh point. I can understand it objectively in the characters minds but I have less then zero desire to watch any of it. And if I think about it in the larger picture I get super annoyed and rage-y. I understand this is TV but after S1,2,3,4 this is STUPID. And given the praise when Olicity was together and all the criticism of romantic drama when they aren't the potential love interest thing is so confusing. 

I fast forwarded thru LL for 4 seasons, I can do it again with some plot points but the rest has to be strong. 

[looptab]

From the transcripts of the panel @tv echo posted in spoilers only:

Quote

Oliver's relationship with Lance - where Lance is, in terms of the type of place and the state of mind that he's in, and their dynamic, um - it's probably the thing that I'm most looking forward to in terms of doing the scenes. And I think that, you know, obviously with the events that happened towards the end of the fourth season, there has been a sizeable shift forever in terms of the dynamic between Oliver and Quentin, and a lot of that actually came from him calling him Quentin for the first time. And that's something that we continue to explore. 

So, something like this?

"Now I wouldn't have hated to have you as my son-in-law"

"That's all I've ever wanted.*puppy dog eyes*"

.....Again, awkward.

Unless we find out that the only reason Oliver ever got involved with the Lance sisters was because he was actually interested in Quentin.

And, call me crazy, but I liked that dumb running gag of "Detective-Officer-Captain Lance" :/

[AyChihuahua]

2 minutes ago, looptab said:

Unless we find out that the only reason Oliver ever got involved with the Lance sisters was because he was actually interested in Quentin.

YES. YES. YES.

That would be awesome.

Oliver's daddy issues ALMOST outweigh his mommy issues. Great job, Queen parents!

[looptab]

Like, I get what they want to do. I get the daddy issues and that they want to do a (maybe?) Batman/Commissioner Gordon thing or something. But Oliver banged both his daughters. Both of them. And the one not traipsing through time is dead. I swear, this is almost as ridiculous as the concept of Malcolm being considered Thea's father and still breathing because of it.

[Chaser]

Not to mention Lance left town with his former future mother in law.

Those two have some type of issues.

[bijoux]

clearly Laurel is going to be given weight in the premiere, I just hope this references other people legacies as well. Not that I think she actually has much of one.

[looptab]

And so it begins..happy first day guys. To a new season of speculations! :)

[quarks]

Well, once again I'll take the contrary view. My favorite overall Arrow arcs were 1B and 2A, followed by 4A (I thought season 3 had some very strong individual episodes, but overall I felt that season was shakier.) As much as I didn't enjoy watching the Oliver/Felicity breakup (mostly because it focused on a "that's not actually the way people act" plot instead of actual cracks that could have come up in their relationship) I didn't want them to reunite offscreen, either, so that's a plus for me. As much as I enjoyed Damien Darhk and Slade, I've never felt that superpowers were a great fit on Arrow, so hearing that 5A is back to focusing on city politics and crime and potential fun with secret identities is a plus.

My major issue is something that I haven't seen anyone else bring up: I like our two current news reporters. They've been with us for four seasons now through major terrorist attacks and viruses and the city council just giving up and, if Felicity in season 4A is to be believed, a lack of decent sushi. Granted, they also haven't had to deal with exploding labs, nuclear bombs and (as many) metahumans, so I can kinda see the appeal, but I want to know: why are they still in Star City? Did they ever want to investigate the oddity of Ray's "death," happening as it did so soon after his VP decided to head off and see the world? Have they ever thought about doing in depth interviews with the few remaining Star City police officers? Are they hoping that a good interview/expose with the Green Arrow will win them a Pulitzer? What? I want to know. But instead of focusing on them, we're getting this new reporter who is only reminding me that Berlanti isn't bringing the Green Lantern to the Arrowverse. Sigh.

[Chaser]

I'm hoping they focus on the Queen legacy and the only reference to L is the unveiling. 

Sigh. It's probably going to have shades of Canary Cry instead.

[Belinea]

They will probably push the Laurel legacy thing quite a bit. I almost have the feeling that this will be connected to her last words and Oliver as mayor will be the person who either wants the statue or unveils it. 

[Morrigan2575]

Suck up to St Laurel the Useless continues.?

I mostly excited S5, a mix of curious/excited/hopeful.

I'm very excited for Chad Coleman (please don't screw that up).  I'm excited for the back to basics storyline. I'm excited for a smaller City/Crime Lord Villain. I'm excited/hopeful for better fight sequences (some of which we got in the last few episodes - Oliver on stairs, Oliver/Diggle running through Thunderdome). 

I'm not really excited for the Bratva storyline but, I'm very curious to see how they tie S5 flashbacks to the pilot. 

Two detractors, that stupud statue and casting Stardust in a recurring role.

I'm partial to Olicity and i do want them back together eventually. However, my enjoymemt/excitement for the show does not rest entirely or even mostly on Olicity. I don't need them together in a romantic sense, i don't need or want the show to focus on Olicity. Olicity, when done right, is a nice part of the story but, it's not THE story for me.  

Mostly, i just absolutely hate angst. As long as there's no stupid angst with Olicity storyline, they can date other people or not date others or just be friends, etc.

Edited July 5, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[dtissagirl]

I'm also cautiously optimistic about what we've heard about the main plot of the season. I kinda really love the idea of Mayor Oliver, because I find it waaaay more interesting when a superhero has a day job that screws up his superheroing. Of course this is Arrow, and they suck at worldbuilding majorly, but so far what the EPs have said about City Hall, and the villain being a crime lord makes me [perhaps foolishly] hopeful this time they mean it.

I'm resigned that O/F is not ever gonna be what I want them to be in terms of story arc [i.e. all I want is rom-com in between the action adventure spy heists], so I kind of only expect them to be written towards getting back together. I doubt the HOW they'll be written will completely satisfy me, but I'm opened to be surprised. 4A was proof that I could be.

[Midnight Lullaby]

They are going to keep glorifying Laurel and boring me..oh well..

During the finale every time they mentioned her I got distracted because from 4x20 on I didn't even notice she was missing, which is logical since she has become a background character in season 4, so I had to take a moment to remember a Laurel existed and that took me out of the scene.

I think there are moments when mentioning characters who died works, for example in 4x05 talking about Moira and Tommy made sense, but you can't mention them ten times each episode, it becomes ridiculous when it's supposed to be sad.

[looptab]

The actual title is "WWLD", not "Legacy".

[tv echo]

I just don't understand why Star City would put up a Black Canary statue.  

In The Dark Knight Rises, Batman

 

sacrificed himself (as far as the city knows) to save Gotham and its citizens from being completely destroyed by a huge bomb, so the city understandably put up a Batman statue to honor him.

As far as Star City knows, Black Canary was one of a group of vigilantes fighting crime in the city and who was killed by Damien Darhk. She didn't save the city from being obliterated by a nuke (Felicity and Curtis did).  And she wasn't the only one killed by Darhk.  Several city residents were also killed when they stood with the Green Arrow against Darhk and fought the Ghosts in the big climactic fight in 423.

And if we're being realistic, Black Canary being revealed as ADA Laurel Lance should've led to a huge legal and ethical headache for Star City's D.A.'s Office and judicial system, in terms of convict appeals.

Edited July 5, 2016 by tv echo

[Morrigan2575]

Brought over from News and Media thread

Quote

@LEMOTOMATO, here's what I think, and maybe it's going to sound far-fetched to some,or too cynical, but I think he's doing it to ingratiate himself to her fans? Which is what I think about him talking up Olicity, but that's another story.. :)

Given what (little) we now know about 501. I'm betting a LOT od DR's WTF comments at cons are based on things he knew for 501/S5.  Like DR saying he wanted Diggle to wear something on his uniform to honor Laurel?!  

Now that I know she's getting a statue and that it's called Legacy...yep that was DR reflecting stuff that the Producers told him about S5.

[dtissagirl]

Why are y'all trying to apply Earth logic to dead Laurel when the show has never ever ever applied anything other than Insane Troll Logic to the character when she was alive.

[Sakura12]

I still find it hilarious that the writers barely cared about Laurel when she was alive, now they enjoy writing her after she's dead and don't have an actress to deal with. Laurel can now be an important background character as a statue. Lol. 

[Velocity23]

Well at least they can be sure it will portray what is in the script.

[lemotomato]

I think it speaks to my mindset about the show right now that every time I see the Spoilers Only thread updated, I feel dread, not anticipation. 

[Chaser]

Speaking of Diggle, any thoughts on what they will be doing when the show returns?

I'm assuming that Diggle with just be returning from the military. You can't just go in and out so I wonder how that will play out. I can't imagine Diggle staying in the military this season. I wonder what he will do. Go private security? Work for Oliver?

I feel like Felicity and Echo are going to be working together. Back at Palmer Tech or open their own thing?

[Morrigan2575]

I'm thinking they're keeping PT and that Echo and Felicity will work there. Not 100% sure how that will work out with Felicity getting fired as CEO.  As much as I wish it would happen, I don't see Felicity starting up her own tech company.  

As for Diggle, I don't know, my best case scenario is that Lyla gets Diggle assigned to ARGUS and that's what brings him back.  However, that could be messy for their relationship (not only the whole boss/employee but, the manipulative aspect).

My worst case scenario is that Diggle gets a medical discharge because of Anger issues or PTSD. I don't trust the writers to handle that well. 

Other than  that,  I can't really think of how they're going to being Diggle back.

[Chaser]

I saw on twitter that DR told someone at the con that Felicity brings did Dig back or talks to him about coming back or something.

I haven't been able to track down the tweet so I'm not sure how reliable the info is, but I like the idea of it.

[Morrigan2575]

3 minutes ago, Chaser said:

I saw on twitter that DR told someone at the con that Felicity brings did Dig back or talks to him about coming back or something.

I haven't been able to track down the tweet so I'm not sure how reliable the info is, but I like the idea of it.

Oh, that's interesting, that's the first I'm hearing of it. If true, it has me curious as to how/why? Actually, i could totally see Felicity being able to hack military records and changing the dates on his release (blanking on the right word)

I just saw on another site that SA is filming in a Tux. My first thought was inoguartion but, now I'm thinking some Charity/PR Benefit where they reveal the memorial to St. Laurel the Useless.

[AyChihuahua]

Oh, I would be willing to bet (NOT EAT MY HAT) that they will pay zero attention to real enlistment rules. He'll just...leave. Resign. Whatever...aka things actual enlisted soldiers cannot do. Bc this show pays zero attention to that stuff.

Lovely, they're wasting scenes of him in a tux during a paean to St. Laurel. Such joy.

I think they're going to be pretty much zero romantic for most if not all of the season. I mean not romantic with each other.

Hey, maybe Felicity will date the DA instead of the cop. Could be interesting.

[Morrigan2575]

Quote

Lovely, they're wasting scenes of him in a tux during a paean to St. Laurel. Such joy.

That was my spec not a factual piece of information. Just don't want any confusion.

[AyChihuahua]

7 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

That was my spec not a factual piece of information. Just don't want any confusion.

It's exactly the kind of thing they'd do.

[Guest]

Is legacy the theme of the season? Because it seems like they'll use Laurel's 'legacy,' whatever the hell that is, to set up a broader arc. I can already picture a scene where Oliver's staring up at BC's shiny new statue and asking himself what it means to be a hero and how everything that's happened before will affect the future. Then we have the big bad who is supposedly borne out of Oliver's actions in SC the last four years - which could be viewed as GA's legacy. 

So using Laurel/BC as a starting point kinda makes sense if I look at it that way (and they did say her death would push the story forward). I don't agree that she has a legacy but that's a discussion for never.

Edited July 5, 2016 by Guest

[kismet]

I am willing to digitally eat my hat that QL becomes deputy Mayor, or at least his profession on the show now is OQ's #2 in the mayoral office ~ however they want to actually describe it on the show. Which means we will get OQ/QL scenes about discussing how to save the city on the regular in the light. They have not reinstated him in the police force for a reason. It is logical and script efficient to make him deputy mayor. They don't need him in SCPD since they have their shiny new cop to play with. So mayor's office it is since QL needs something heroic in the day to do and OQ needs someone he can trust in the office working with him.

I think Dig is going to get injured and that is how he returns to SC. He then has a choice to return to the military or not and that is when FS works her magic to keep him home. And that is all I am going to say about that because I do not want to jinx what has potential to be an amazing Delicity scene.

Edited July 5, 2016 by kismet

[lemotomato]

30 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

Is legacy the theme of the season? Because it seems like they'll use Laurel's 'legacy,' whatever the hell that is, to set up a broader arc. I can already picture a scene where Oliver's staring up at BC's shiny new statue and asking himself what it means to be a hero and how everything that's happened before will affect the future. Then we have the big bad who is supposedly borne out of Oliver's actions in SC the last four years - which could be viewed as GA's legacy. 

So using Laurel/BC as a starting point kinda makes sense if I look at it that way (and they did say her death would push the story forward). I don't agree that she has a legacy but that's a discussion for never.

Like you pointed out, legacies are not necessarily a good thing. LL/BC's legacy could be inspiring a new crop of reckless, under-trained, ineffective vigilantes with delusions of grandeur. Not that I think the show will actually take this route, because 423 tried so hard to emphasize LL was the best!!!, but I'm hoping for some unintentional shade, at least.

[apinknightmare]

Regarding Bam's post in the SPOILERS ONLY thread - that looks like the same lair to me? 

[Guest]

It is the same lair.

[wonderwall]

LOL my bad then. It looked different to me for some reason

[bijoux]

Regarding Curtis almost definitely becoming Mr Terrific this season (@tv echo's post on the last page of Spoilers Only!), how does this character fight in the comics? Does he rely on the spheres and science mostly or does he also physically fight? Because, yes, they mentioned Curtis competing in something or other, but he has hardly shown a natural instinct for physically confronting bad guys last season. Which is perfectly fine. Until he is supposed to go out in the field in less than a year afterwards. Also, I still stand by what I said weeks ago. Mr Terrific will sound totally lame over the coms. The first VotW to bug them will probably piss themselves laughing.

Edited July 7, 2016 by bijoux

[theacostov]

I'm about as excited for the evolution of Mr Terrific as I was for the evolution of BC, which is to say not at all. 

[tv echo]

From what I've seen on the show (like when he was fighting Roy), Curtis has about the same fighting ability as Felicity.  But because he plays a comics canon character, he'll probably get a high-tech, weaponized suit and go out in the field... while Felicity remains the only non-masked hero on the show.

Edited July 7, 2016 by tv echo