Spoiler Discussion Thread

[Mellowyellow]

Guys do you think they might just ignore the relationship and just have nothing happen between them.  Like it's done and dusted and this is the end of our ship? Won't be the first time a tv show has done something sh$tty.

[way2interested]

15 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

Since WM said that she and MG presented the engagement idea to GB, I wish he'd talked some sense into them and said, "Maybe don't introduce that idea until you're really ready to go for it." Because they set up certain expectations by putting marriage on the table 

Wasn't it GB's own idea for the ring thing in 401? I thought I remember reading something where someone brought up that GB suggested that Oliver want to propose in 401, while they actually wondered if they should do that so soon.

But I still think that they're going to get back together at some point since keeping them apart would be going against the show's best interests (against reviewers who praised the writing of a balanced couple, the actors who are more comfortable in those roles, the writers who don't write too well otherwise, the free promotion and buzz from fandom, etc.). Although it is a question of how hard and how fast they'll go towards it this time around, considering how hard and fast they've had Olicity go in the past. Going slower would allow them to drag it out, but, with the idea that Oliver and Felicity legit almost got married still fresh in the past, it's going to be really difficult on how to properly balance them out going forward. We'll probably get the hint of how they'll approach it come SDCC and 501, but at this point no idea.

[calliope1975]

20 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

Guys do you think they might just ignore the relationship and just have nothing happen between them.  Like it's done and dusted and this is the end of our ship? Won't be the first time a tv show has done something sh$tty.

I don't know that they can. (Well, of course they can, but you know.) Olicity is kind of a juggernaut that took on a life of it's own. It's gets the show a ton of promo. As @apinknightmare said above, I don't know that I could really see Oliver or Felicity dating other people and have it be narratively natural. However, these aren't the best writers, either, so whatever way they go wouldn't really surprise me. 

[Morrigan2575]

No, I don't think this show will have Oliver/ Felicity never get together again or venture into other long-term/permanent relationships.

Romantic love has been at the heart of every Flarrowverse show. Lauiver was there from the inception (Olicity replaced it), Barry/Iris has been a core component of The Flash since it's inception. Even LoT had the mythical Destinted Lovers storyline at it's core (Stupid Hawks). 

This is the type of story/show they want to tell, it's part of their DNA. They may suck at storytelling and make stupid ass decisions to drag it out but, that's all they're doing.  The fault with Flarrow writers comes not with the romance but the hoops they go through to stall or create angst/drama in order to delay the inevitable

Edited June 5, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[apinknightmare]

8 minutes ago, way2interested said:

Wasn't it GB's own idea for the ring thing in 401? I thought I remember reading something where someone brought up that GB suggested that Oliver want to propose in 401, while they actually wondered if they should do that so soon

I thought WM had said that they came up with the idea of Oliver having the ring as a way to show how serious things had gotten between him and Felicity over the summer and that they pitched the idea to GB and he was okay with it. But I could be remembering it wrong. 

[quarks]

27 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

Guys do you think they might just ignore the relationship and just have nothing happen between them.  Like it's done and dusted and this is the end of our ship? Won't be the first time a tv show has done something sh$tty.

Nope.

Since the breakup, they've had a fake wedding, Oliver coming to Felicity's rescue, Felicity coming to Oliver's rescue, a couple hugs, a return to them pretty much acting like a couple, a pause in the middle of nuclear missiles/Damien Darhk destroying everything for Curtis to discuss Oliver and relationships with Felicity, and a final shot of the two of them standing together in the Arrow Cave. They're not ignoring it at all.

The only thing that seems to be changing is that the fan-speculated Oliver and Felicity 100th episode/crossover extravaganza wedding may not be happening. But if that was the original plan - and that's just fan speculation - chances are very good that the change has nothing to do with Oliver and Felicity and where Arrow intends to go with them, and everything to do with WB and CW freaking out about just how important it is for the expensive Supergirl to be a success, and dealing with the logistics of trying to do a crossover with four separate shows that will tempt both Supergirl and Flash fans to tune in for all four nights. I'd be sweating bullets over this myself. I hope they have plenty of booze and chocolate.

[Morrigan2575]

^^^ Personally,  i never thought tjat was their plan. that always came across as more fanon/wishful thinking than something the show was setting up.

i honestly could not picture them wasting (and yeah, IMO it would have been a waste) the annual Flarrow Crossover/100th episode on an Olicity wedding. 

[foreverevolving]

7 minutes ago, quarks said:

Nope.

Since the breakup, they've had a fake wedding, Oliver coming to Felicity's rescue, Felicity coming to Oliver's rescue, a couple hugs, a return to them pretty much acting like a couple, a pause in the middle of nuclear missiles/Damien Darhk destroying everything for Curtis to discuss Oliver and relationships with Felicity, and a final shot of the two of them standing together in the Arrow Cave. They're not ignoring it at all.

The only thing that seems to be changing is that the fan-speculated Oliver and Felicity 100th episode/crossover extravaganza wedding may not be happening. But if that was the original plan - and that's just fan speculation - chances are very good that the change has nothing to do with Oliver and Felicity and where Arrow intends to go with them, and everything to do with WB and CW freaking out about just how important it is for the expensive Supergirl to be a success, and dealing with the logistics of trying to do a crossover with four separate shows that will tempt both Supergirl and Flash fans to tune in for all four nights. I'd be sweating bullets over this myself. I hope they have plenty of booze and chocolate.

you forgot to add .. in the middle of a ring. to that part.

[thegirlsleuth]

With the way the writers like to burn through plot, they could absolutely have the wedding in episode 100. Heck, they could have it in 5.03.  I do hope they slow things down, though.  It would be nice to see the fun parts of their relationships rather than just the angst.

I do wonder if Laurel as Black Siren makes an appearance in episode 100.  She's got ties to three of the four shows and is just sitting in that cell, like Checkov's gun.

[lemotomato]

1 hour ago, Mellowyellow said:

Guys do you think they might just ignore the relationship and just have nothing happen between them.  Like it's done and dusted and this is the end of our ship? Won't be the first time a tv show has done something sh$tty.

I don't think Olicity is done. I do think there's a good chance the show will do what they did in season 3 and backburn their relationship, only giving occasional teases until they need a Moment for sweeps or the midseason finale.

[wonderwall]

9 minutes ago, thegirlsleuth said:

I do wonder if Laurel as Black Siren makes an appearance in episode 100.  She's got ties to three of the four shows and is just sitting in that cell, like Checkov's gun.

lol no... Out of everyone, Imo Felicity has the strongest ties to 3/4 shows. 

Felicity: Strongest tie is to Barry and is really friendly with Caitlin/Cisco (former more than latter) on the Flash has strong ties with Ray (ugh) and is friendly with Sara on LoT
Oliver: Strong ties with Barry on the Flash and that's it, strong ties with Sara on LoT
Laurel: barely any ties to Flash (the whole "we loved her" was so weird no one bought it) and has strongest ties to Sara on LoT. 

While I think Sara meeting Black Siren would be an interesting dynamic, I doubt it'll happen. Because while Laurel has some ties, she won't be used if there are other characters with stronger ties.

Edited June 5, 2016 by wonderwall

[EmilyBettFan]

I still laugh at the whole "we loved her." It's like bitch please where? Lmfao 

[TrueMyth]

15 minutes ago, wonderwall said:

lol no... Out of everyone, Imo Felicity has the strongest ties to 3/4 shows. 

Felicity: Strongest tie is to Barry and is really friendly with Caitlin/Cisco (former more than latter) on the Flash has strong ties with Ray (ugh) and is friendly with Sara on LoT
Oliver: Strong ties with Barry on the Flash and that's it, strong ties with Sara on LoT
Laurel: barely any ties to Flash (the whole "we loved her" was so weird no one bought it) and has strongest ties to Sara on LoT. 

While I think Sara meeting Black Siren would be an interesting dynamic, I doubt it'll happen. Because while Laurel has some ties, she won't be used if there are other characters with stronger ties.

But we are talking about Black Siren, not Laurel, so she actually has much stronger ties to the Flash crew than Laurel did, since she went up against them.  Of course, that weakens her actual ties to the Arrow and LoT crew, but the initial interaction could be powerful, particularly for Sara, to be confronted with a living version of her sister.

It's a total PLEASE, NO for me, but it is possible.  I think it's unlikely since Laurel rarely had much to do during the cross-overs.  I don't think KC would be seen as a ratings draw.  Instead I'd expect them to use something with the Justice League or whatever was name checked in the finale LoT.  I'm assuming there will be a threat to the multiverse that LoT will be facing and will make a good unifying crisis for the big cross over.

[wonderwall]

6 minutes ago, TrueMyth said:

But we are talking about Black Siren, not Laurel, so she actually has much stronger ties to the Flash crew than Laurel did, since she went up against them.  Of course, that weakens her actual ties to the Arrow and LoT crew, but the initial interaction could be powerful, particularly for Sara, to be confronted with a living version of her sister.

It's a total PLEASE, NO for me, but it is possible.  I think it's unlikely since Laurel rarely had much to do during the cross-overs.  I don't think KC would be seen as a ratings draw.  Instead I'd expect them to use something with the Justice League or whatever was name checked in the finale LoT.  I'm assuming there will be a threat to the multiverse that LoT will be facing and will make a good unifying crisis for the big cross over.

I guess IMO Team Flash has zero ties to Black Siren only because they've went up against her once or twice in one episode. Team Flash literally doesn't give a crap about her and the show went as far as having Cisco taunt her in the totally morally sound prison they have. She's now, imo, that one chick that The Flash defeated a while ago. And what with the whole flashpoint paradox things are a bit murkier for Flash because we don't know if Barry ended up meeting LL from E2.

Unless Laurel is the main villain of the crossovers, I don't see why the writers would want to side track themselves with her. Because you're right. THe reaction to seeing her would be powerful and the writers probably wouldn't want to stray from the actual plot by bringing her back.

That being said. I honestly don't think it's happening at all. 

[looptab]

I think it's not so much a matter of characters ties, rather that she is literally imprisoned in the very base of operations of the Flash people, plus she looks like Laurel. I can see it happen.

[bijoux]

7 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

^^^ Personally,  i never thought tjat was their plan. that always came across as more fanon/wishful thinking than something the show was setting up.

i honestly could not picture them wasting (and yeah, IMO it would have been a waste) the annual Flarrow Crossover/100th episode on an Olicity wedding. 

Unless it's aborted because it's crashed by the crossover villain. That scenario seemed believable to me.

I'm missing something here. What's the source of Oliver and Felicity aren't together in the premiere? It actually makes sense to tell that to the audience in a way. It' like, don't worry, guys, you won't miss seeing it actually happening.

Edited June 5, 2016 by bijoux
Never mind. Saw the tweets in Spoilers Only!

[Mellowyellow]

Love you ladies! Thank you for the pep talk! Shipping is draining!

I've had 2 shows go south on me and I wasn't even shipping anyone when I watched them! So now that I'm stark raving mad on the Olicity train, I'm antsy!

[kismet]

I only saw the Olicity wedding crossover extravaganza happening if they had it crashed by a Supervillain like @bijoux suggested. Otherwise, I see it more as a Winter/Spring Finale episode. However, now that SG has entered the picture. I agree with @Morrigan2575 that it would be a waste of a 4 part crossover.

I must admit as a fan, I was hoping it might be the crossover but only because I want a happy crossover for once. It would be nice to see these groups willing hang out together for fun and not just because the world is ending. I know SA is adamantly against it, but I'm still actively rooting for a MUSICAL crossover event. I know DC has musically based villains, have them reek havoc. It doesn't have to be a complete musical where everything is sung, just a few musical numbers here & there. And if Arrow feels it ruins the integrity of the show perhaps they can not put singing numbers in Arrow, but have the Arrow crew sing on the other shows.

As for Olicity in s5, SA says they won't start off the season together. All that means is it won't happen in the first scene. They could be together by the end of 501. Like I said before, I think any Olicity rumors/spoilers should be taken with a grain of salt. I think after 4 seasons of it being a major buzz factor for their show, they are going to play their cards very close to the chest about Olicity over the hiatus.

[Mellowyellow]

Oooh can anyone on Arrow sing?

[way2interested]

2 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

Oooh can anyone on Arrow sing?

It's more like can anyone on Arrow not sing at this point.

[Morrigan2575]

JB, SA, DR, EBR and CH can all sing. I've only heard WH in that Grease Bathroom Video from S1 and i wasn't impressed but, I've seen people say she could sing.

[quarks]

Oh, I think Oliver and Felicity can always go south. It's television. But I don't think that we've seen anything on screen to suggest that Arrow has given up on the relationship yet.  And from the standpoint of the show, it makes a lot of sense for them not to get together over the summer hiatus and spend a few more episodes teasing the relationship - and then get them together during a sweeps episode or something, if only to prevent Oliver and Felicity fans from sobbing that they didn't get to see the cute Oliver and Felicity reunion. And since even many of the haters liked Oliver and Felicity working and snarking together in seasons one/two and the first part of season four, focusing on that and not wedding drama for now also makes a lot of sense. 

Laurel wasn't in either major Flash crossover back when she was on the show, and she only crossed over to Flash twice - her cameo a couple of seasons ago, and the Black Siren appearance this year. She barely appeared on the Arrow episodes of those crossovers. Given that the big December crossover is already going to be a logistical nightmare, I highly doubt that Laurel will be included - as it is, each show is going to have to try to juggle at least 14 characters (its main cast of six to eight people, plus Barry, Cisco, Oliver, Felicity, Diggle and at least two, probably three people from Supergirl and two, probably three people from Legends of Tomorrow, plus the villains). I expect this is going to include filming out of order again, as they did last season, but that still forces them to film around the already heavy film schedule for Stephen Amell, Grant Gustin and Melissa Benoist.  A Black Siren cameo would be fun for Laurel fans, but I'm not convinced that either Flash or Arrow will have the time to include it.

[kismet]

They could have BS be part of the link that connects all the shows. If they try to send BS back to E2, she could wind up in SG. People then go to SG to stop her, but she's linked forces with a Superbad. That plot then continues through to Flash. Somehow word gets around the a LL looking person is causing havoc, which is how Arrow gets linked in. And then LoT goes back in time to stop it all from happening and save LL's reputation.

I'm not saying I want this or advocate that it is a good plot line. But it is feasible that somehow KC as BS manages to finagle her way onto the 4 part crossover.

[Morrigan2575]

KC is no longer a member of the Flarrow cast, Laurel/BC is dead. When will Olicity/Felicity fans stop living in fear of this character?

[apinknightmare]

3 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

KC is no longer a member of the Flarrow cast, Laurel/BC is dead. When will Olicity/Felicity fans stop living in fear of this character?

Who is "living in fear?" Is the discussion not about Black Siren appearing in the crossover? Like, I don't see any mention of Laurel or Black Canary with regards to Olicity/Felicity at all here. 

[quarks]

15 minutes ago, kismet said:

They could have BS be part of the link that connects all the shows. If they try to send BS back to E2, she could wind up in SG. People then go to SG to stop her, but she's linked forces with a Superbad. That plot then continues through to Flash. Somehow word gets around the a LL looking person is causing havoc, which is how Arrow gets linked in. And then LoT goes back in time to stop it all from happening and save LL's reputation.

I'm not saying I want this or advocate that it is a good plot line. But it is feasible that somehow KC as BS manages to finagle her way onto the 4 part crossover.

Let me phrase things another way:

Why would WB or the CW allow an epic, never been done before four part crossover that desperately needs to succeed in order to justify the costs of taking Supergirl on and to give Legends of Tomorrow the same sort of lift Arrow has gotten in the last two seasons, to focus on a character who got killed off, and whose most recent appearance on Flash not only didn't lead to a ratings lift, but actually led to a slight dip in viewers?

Granted, apart from feeling fairly certain that the Big Bad won't be Lex Luthor or the Joker, I have no idea who the Arrowverse will be using for the Big Bad, but I see no reason why this would be Laurel/Black Siren.

[Chaser]

It's funny. I was reading tweets from KCs panel. Someone asked her about coming back for crossovers and she gave them a hopefully We'll See! Timing on that, given the conversation here, made me laugh. 

She isn't coming back.

As for the crossover, pretty positive this crossover is going to highlight Supergirl. It's probably going to feel like a Flash & Supergirl special with special appearances by LOT and ..... Arrow.

Well I would have liked the Olicity wedding to be the reason the Arrow and Flash crew (with Sara) get together before everything blows up and they have to go save the world. It's clearly a fan wish at this point. And unfortunately doesn't work at all with what they've done. I can still see Olicity getting married around that time but I don't see a big build up like last season. More like "So we almost died on that mission, let's just head to the courthouse now."

[kismet]

Gotta agree @apinknightmare I don't think anyone in this current thread of conversation is living in fear about LL or BC. People were discussing if Black Siren would come back as part of the crossover, which is a plausible scenario and valid question.

1 minute ago, quarks said:

Let me phrase things another way:

Why would WB or the CW allow an epic, never been done before four part crossover that desperately needs to succeed in order to justify the costs of taking Supergirl on and to give Legends of Tomorrow the same sort of lift Arrow has gotten in the last two seasons, to focus on a character who got killed off, and whose most recent appearance on Flash not only didn't lead to a ratings lift, but actually led to a slight dip in viewers?

Granted, apart from feeling fairly certain that the Big Bad won't be Lex Luthor or the Joker, I have no idea who the Arrowverse will be using for the Big Bad, but I see no reason why this would be Laurel/Black Siren.

Agree, I don't think its likely. But I like the challenge of being able to see if they could write in the character. Someone suggested it as a possibility and I just like to venture a plausible scenario that could make it happen. I don't foresee it happening because it would be a dumb choice by the writers, but they have made other dumb choices before.

I do disagree with you that the crossover desperately needs to succeed. It really doesn't. Flash, Arrow & LoT are pretty secure in their ratings, the only show that is a question mark is SG. And unlike last year there is no pressure on this crossover to launch anything. SG is going to succeed & fail with or without the crossover's help. It's actually just an opportunity to make a story they want to make. It just needs to not fail, which I think they can manage.

Personally, I think the crossover is going to be about rescuing BA from the Flashpoint Paradox (or whatever its called) because there is no way the comic geeks in the writers room are going to pass on that opportunity to bring a "comic" story to the crossover. Not when its just there teasing them.

[Morrigan2575]

25 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

Who is "living in fear?" Is the discussion not about Black Siren appearing in the crossover? Like, I don't see any mention of Laurel or Black Canary with regards to Olicity/Felicity at all here. 

Sorry but it never ends.  6 months of people arguing, no they'll never kill Laurel, you're all crazy.  2 months between filming 418 and the episode airing listening to people predicit that it's a fakeout, she's totally not dead dead, Arrow totally filmed fake funeral scenes just to throw the paps off the trail.   4 weeks of people denying her death (between 418 and 419 airing), that it was a total fake out. 

After that it was fears of LP Laurel and tons of other specualtion about Baby Canary (between 419 and 423 filming). This lead to people predicitng that LL would be brought back to life in 423 or that Ghost LL would show up in 423 to inspire GA.  Then after Flash's finale there was week of speculation that the Flash finale would unwind Arrow and have Laurel back to life in 423. Then after that happened there was speculation that they cut the Black Canary from 423 because it was a super secret, very special scene that will play and important role in S5.

Now it's specualtion that they're going to dedicate the 4 part Flarrow Crossover to the Freaking Black Siren. A character which barely had 10 minutes of screentime on Flash. An actress which barely got 5 minutes of screentime in two previous Flarrow Crossovers.

I'm sorry but it's just exhausting, months and months of this and I should finally be free and instead people are inventing reasons to keep her relevant.

I'm just tired. Arrow is finally free of LL/BC/KC and, I can't even enjoy it because every time I turn around someone is freaking out about her coming back in some form.

Edited June 5, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[tangerine95]

I think the crossover wedding is still a possibility.I mean if they do a 4 episode thing and the arrow part is still 5.08 then that's the 100th episode and as much as they want to sell Supergirl, I want to believe that such an important episode for Arrow will actually focus on Arrow. I really doubt the wedding will be formal and huge because they already kinda did that with the fake wedding so I can see it being a in the moment thing and totally opposite of what they planned in season 4.I'm not that invested in the idea of the wedding being the crossover so I'm fine with whenever it happens tbh.

I'm actually glad olicity didn't get back together offscreen.As annoyed as I am that they dragged it out into season 5, I still want to see them get back together on screen. 

Edited June 5, 2016 by tangerine95

[Chaser]

I can see why people are still talking about the possibilities. LL/BC/KC is experiencing a post death popularity. KC is getting more love from the cast the she ever has. GA Rebirth is being released to positive reviews, good sales and a heavy emphasis on GA/BC. 

You also have Arrow ending on a lack luster note. Arrow experiencing waves of negatively both with media reviews and on SM.

I get why people would be concerned KC would come back in any compacity. I even get the crossover talk because it's the hundredth episode of Arrow and she was with the show four years in an 'iconic' role. 

Its all fandom concern because there is nothing going on to support that. Arrow didn't experience any ratings free fall. Flash didn't get a boost from her appearance. Whatever they filmed with BC never made it in the final. Her appearance on Flash didn't set up anything (VoTW that was it). No one in the Arrow cast or crew is taking about about it, SA and DR even stressed dead at their Cons (DR had previously doubted). 

Plus. We have nothing going on. It's the dead air before SDCC. I'm thinking once we get to SDCC it's going to die down considerably. 

[SmallScreenDiva]

LL/BC/BS being part of any Flarrow show (crossover or standalone eps) would mean Flarrow EPs are interested in writing for her, working with the actress again and, if BTS stuff is to be believed (and I do, some of it anyway), killing off LL was a way to permanently get rid of a problematic character AND problematic actress. So yeah, I don't expect to see LL/BC/BS/KC in the Flarrowverse ever again. Could totally be wrong. But I really doubt it.

[quarks]

25 minutes ago, kismet said:

Gotta agree @apinknightmare I don't think anyone in this current thread of conversation is living in fear about LL or BC. People were discussing if Black Siren would come back as part of the crossover, which is a plausible scenario and valid question.

[...]

I do disagree with you that the crossover desperately needs to succeed. It really doesn't. Flash, Arrow & LoT are pretty secure in their ratings, the only show that is a question mark is SG. And unlike last year there is no pressure on this crossover to launch anything. SG is going to succeed & fail with or without the crossover's help. It's actually just an opportunity to make a story they want to make. It just needs to not fail, which I think they can manage.

I don't think it's a plausible scenario at all, especially now that Chaser has mentioned KC's "Hopefully! We'll see!" 

Also, I like Legends of Tomorrow, but it's certainly not secure in its ratings; it lost half its viewers and dropped down below Arrow and Flash in its first, shortened season - a much bigger drop than either Arrow or Flash had in their first seasons. It's also not just ratings: Amazon.com currently ranks the preorders for the Blu-Ray at #2,470 overall for Movies & TV, which, yes, is better than Supergirl (2,963), preorders for Arrow season four (2,739) and current sales for Arrow season 2 (2,900) -- but not all that much better, and LOWER than preorders for The Flash season 2 (1,497), and sales for Arrow season 1 (1,988), Arrow season 3 (918), and The Flash season 1 (221). 

At least some of this is dependent on pricing, since the older seasons have gone on sale and the newer seasons haven't, but it's still not a very encouraging sign, especially since Legends of Tomorrow is ten dollars cheaper than Supergirl, Flash season 2 and Arrow season 4, and yet is only selling about five to twenty more preorders per week than Supergirl and Arrow season 4.  And especially since, prior to Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrow was the hands down most expensive show on the CW.

Supergirl is, as you said, a question mark. On the one hand, like Legends of Tomorrow, it lost half its viewers in one slightly shorter season, the preorder numbers are not reassuring, it's even more expensive, and there's no guarantee that CBS viewers will follow the show over to a new network. The show needs the solid Flash audience.

On the other hand, even after that drop, Supergirl is still the hands down most popular of the Arrowverse shows, and I expect that the hope is not for Arrow and Legends of Tomorrow to help Supergirl establish itself, but rather that CBS viewers will follow Supergirl over to the CW, and then watch Kara on all four crossover nights - lifting the numbers for Flash, Arrow and Legends of Tomorrow.

But the biggest reason that the crossover needs to succeed is that the CW needs to justify picking up Supergirl - just shortly after passing on the show out of the twin concerns of expense and not wanting to get known as the DC channel. And WB and DC could both use the superhero boost. If the epic crossover does well, it's justified. If not - investors and ad buyers, the most important people here, will be asking questions.

[foreverevolving]

13 hours ago, wonderwall said:

I guess IMO Team Flash has zero ties to Black Siren only because they've went up against her once or twice in one episode. Team Flash literally doesn't give a crap about her and the show went as far as having Cisco taunt her in the totally morally sound prison they have. She's now, imo, that one chick that The Flash defeated a while ago. And what with the whole flashpoint paradox things are a bit murkier for Flash because we don't know if Barry ended up meeting LL from E2.

Unless Laurel is the main villain of the crossovers, I don't see why the writers would want to side track themselves with her. Because you're right. THe reaction to seeing her would be powerful and the writers probably wouldn't want to stray from the actual plot by bringing her back.

That being said. I honestly don't think it's happening at all. 

You know, i'd be okay with that.. they can use it as a way to kill off Black Siren and LL in the supergirl world and we will be rid of any chance the character will be back for good.

Or even better, have her be the bad for the crossover (at least a portion of it) and have Malcolm kill her.

[Velocity23]

Well you gonna see BC/KC/LL crossover on Vixen when it airs. Since she was promosed this.

[lemotomato]

As a counterpoint to speculation that KC/BC/BS might come back, I'd point out that Greg Berlanti hasn't said a peep about her getting written off, and hasn't made any reassurances that the door would be open for her to return, in contrast to the interviews he gave when CH/Roy and WM/Captain Cold left their respective shows. I'd like to think this reflects what he thinks of the possibility of bringing her back-- that it's not going to happen. 

[quarks]

9 minutes ago, Velocity23 said:

Well you gonna see BC/KC/LL crossover on Vixen when it airs. Since she was promosed this.

True, though I expect that Laurel's appearance there will be similar to the Cisco/Felicity appearances in Vixen season one - just a couple of sentences.

[apinknightmare]

1 hour ago, Chaser said:

I can see why people are still talking about the possibilities. LL/BC/KC is experiencing a post death popularity. KC is getting more love from the cast the she ever has. GA Rebirth is being released to positive reviews, good sales and a heavy emphasis on GA/BC. 

It's funny, since I think the comment that originally brought it up was that Black Siren/E2 Laurel could link all the shows together (since Arrow people  and Sara would be interested in another version of Laurel, and she originated on The Flash). Seems like that was the only reasoning for bringing her up, haha. 

But the shows don't need a cast member to link them, since their crossover involvement will likely involve trying to stop a Big Bad that's making his/her way throughout their universes, or trying to stop someone from doing some nefarious thing like in the past 2 crossover eps. 

[looptab]

2 hours ago, Chaser said:

Well I would have liked the Olicity wedding to be the reason the Arrow and Flash crew (with Sara) get together before everything blows up and they have to go save the world. It's clearly a fan wish at this point. And unfortunately doesn't work at all with what they've done. I can still see Olicity getting married around that time but I don't see a big build up like last season. More like "So we almost died on that mission, let's just head to the courthouse now."

Same. Now I hope, if they do get married, that it'll be something like Derek/Meredith's wedding on GA. Subdued, no big deal.

2 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Sorry but it never ends. [...]I'm just tired. Arrow is finally free of LL/BC/KC and, I can't even enjoy it because every time I turn around someone is freaking out about her coming back in some form.

I understand being tired that the discussion keeps coming back to her, but I see nothing wrong in bouncing ideas off. Mostly for the reasons @Chaser wrote above, it's the 100th episode, and she was a main character. Personally I'm not freaking out, just thinking out loud. :)

[BkWurm1]

Quote

"villain is a callback to season one next season."#WizardWorldPhilly

 

A callback could still mean someone that had been in season one but to me it sounds more like the villian will be LIKE one we saw in season one.  So since MM was the BB in season one, is he going to be modeled off the Undertaking with a group of powerful people plotting and planning...which isn't much different than HiVE. 

Or we're back to the Star City Bratva but a new boss is in town. 

[Midnight Lullaby]

I think the crossover will be about some catastrophe the teams have to prevent and not about Oliver and Felicity getting married. I think it will be full of masks, too many people, a messy plot and not the type of episode I enjoy.

I don't think Black Siren is relevant in the Flarrowverse, this argument has always sounded weird to me because she isn't Laurel, she just looks like her. It obviously would be freaky for her friends and family to see someone who looks like Laurel but it isn't her. One thing would be if that was Laurel who became evil but she is a complete different person. Physical appearance is the last thing to be important in a person.

I got the feeling the writers realized that they were going to have their main couple be married too soon and rules of television are against that, LOL. I'm placing my bet on season 5 finale wedding (that might even get interrupted) and it's fine by me, but I'm worried about what the writers are going to do to stall them because I'm so tired of angst or of the plot keeping them apart for no reason.

[Velocity23]

I would expect Robert Queen from e2 appearing before BS.

[looptab]

27 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Or we're back to the Star City Bratva but a new boss is in town. 

The son of that dude that Slade killed!

[Chaser]

1 hour ago, apinknightmare said:

It's funny, since I think the comment that originally brought it up was that Black Siren/E2 Laurel could link all the shows together (since Arrow people  and Sara would be interested in another version of Laurel, and she originated on The Flash). Seems like that was the only reasoning for bringing her up, haha. 

But the shows don't need a cast member to link them, since their crossover involvement will likely involve trying to stop a Big Bad that's making his/her way throughout their universes, or trying to stop someone from doing some nefarious thing like in the past 2 crossover eps. 

BS in the crossover is just the lastest possiblity of KC returning that has been tossed around on the board. I just don't think the conversation would be happening at all if not for other factors. 

[TrueMyth]

I don't see an Olicity wedding in 5x08, 100th episode or not.  It was a nice idea when they would have been in a relationship for more than a year and weathered a season finale as a couple, but that didn't happen.

I know Arrow is established and okay for ratings, but it would be great to pick up some from Supergirl.  I'm sure there are people who enjoy Supergirl's female hero or sibling relationship, but didn't know there are analogs on Arrow.  I know Kara is less like Felicity than we originally thought based on the  pink button down  pilot pictures, but I think showcasing Felicity and some of the chemistry between Oliver and Felicity on the other shows, possibly to setting up for an Olicity reunion in the Arrow portion or 4x09, all that, could really help bring some of the Supergirl audience over to Arrow.

[apinknightmare]

35 minutes ago, Chaser said:

BS in the crossover is just the lastest possiblity of KC returning that has been tossed around on the board. I just don't think the conversation would be happening at all if not for other factors. 

I haven't really seen it talked about all that much after her appearance on The Flash - I must've missed any other discussion on it, because I thought this was maybe the second time it'd been discussed.

[tarotx]

I'm still thinking Oliver might have to fight a version of his season 1 self. It's just this time Oliver has had 4 years of Digg&Feliciity to guide him to a more nuanced lighter character. And as the Mayor, is the one who has to make decisions that lead to the new vigilante turning dark. Plus we will be seeing Oliver turn into his dark version in the Flashbacks - making them have more of a purpose. And I can see how they can make this like a season finale. 

[kismet]

8 hours ago, looptab said:

I understand being tired that the discussion keeps coming back to her, but I see nothing wrong in bouncing ideas off. Mostly for the reasons @Chaser wrote above, it's the 100th episode, and she was a main character. Personally I'm not freaking out, just thinking out loud. :)

That's sorta why we are all here... Its just shooting off ideas. I don't think anybody here is panicked. There is nothing much to chew on, why not create some crazy scenarios. Thinking out loud isn't always a bad thing :)

[TimetravellingBW]

11 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Sorry but it never ends.  6 months of people arguing, no they'll never kill Laurel, you're all crazy.  2 months between filming 418 and the episode airing listening to people predicit that it's a fakeout, she's totally not dead dead, Arrow totally filmed fake funeral scenes just to throw the paps off the trail.   4 weeks of people denying her death (between 418 and 419 airing), that it was a total fake out. 

After that it was fears of LP Laurel and tons of other specualtion about Baby Canary (between 419 and 423 filming). This lead to people predicitng that LL would be brought back to life in 423 or that Ghost LL would show up in 423 to inspire GA.  

Now it's specualtion that they're going to dedicate the 4 part Flarrow Crossover to the Freaking Black Siren. A character which barely had 10 minutes of screentime on Flash. An actress which barely got 5 minutes of screentime in two previous Flarrow Crossovers.

I'm just tired. Arrow is finally free of LL/BC/KC and, I can't even enjoy it because every time I turn around someone is freaking out about her coming back in some form.

10 hours ago, Chaser said:

I can see why people are still talking about the possibilities. LL/BC/KC is experiencing a post death popularity. KC is getting more love from the cast the she ever has. GA Rebirth is being released to positive reviews, good sales and a heavy emphasis on GA/BC. 

You also have Arrow ending on a lack luster note. Arrow experiencing waves of negatively both with media reviews and on SM.

I get why people would be concerned KC would come back in any compacity. I even get the crossover talk because it's the hundredth episode of Arrow and she was with the show four years in an 'iconic' role. 

Its all fandom concern because there is nothing going on to support that. Arrow didn't experience any ratings free fall. Flash didn't get a boost from her appearance. Whatever they filmed with BC never made it in the final. Her appearance on Flash didn't set up anything (VoTW that was it). No one in the Arrow cast or crew is taking about about it, SA and DR even stressed dead at their Cons (DR had previously doubted). 

Plus. We have nothing going on. It's the dead air before SDCC. I'm thinking once we get to SDCC it's going to die down considerably. 

With all of the backlash against LL's death and Olicity/Felicity in general, and the sudden support for LL, I find it easy to get sucked into believing they could bring LL back after all. It doesn't help that there was similar backlash about Sara's death and even though she was deader than dead, she was brought back. So I really have to talk myself out of it and avoid all the theories/petitions of how she could be brought back.

The thing is, Sara was brought back for Legends because Ray Palmer flopped and they needed a more popular character to get fans on board. (Which is pretty obvious given they resurrected her, she was around for barely an episode and then gone - it wasn't about appeasing Arrow fans at all).  Had they not needed Sara for Legends, I don't think she would have been brought back at all - backlash or no backlash. Because like Laurel, Sara's death didn't impact ratings and complaints died down. (I mean there was still anger, but it wasn't all people talked about all season long. Complaints over LL should fade with time too). 

Also, a lot of the arguments that LL will be brought back because of fan complaints, rest on the idea that the writers changed course to Felicity and Olicity only because of the vocal online fan base. Which the writers have stated over and over again is not the case. Although the show runners have made some short-sighted, stupid decisions, they do think about the show and characters, from a writing standpoint not just media and fanbase. All the problems that we can identify in LL's writing: She's superfluous to the team, her poor connection with Oliver, hitting a dead end for character arc - they know them too. They're all too aware that they've struggled writing for Laurel for years, and that her "popularity" only peaked when she was doing basically nothing. (I loath this claim that Laurel has "improved" and "found her niche" this season. If the best Laurel has ever been, is a piece of background furniture who dispenses generic advice that could be said by Diggle/Felicity/Thea? Well, that's a sad reflection on her character's success. You only have to go back to the last time she had her "own plotline" - resurrecting Sara - to hit a point when Laurel wasn't working and was widely criticized. And that was only this season: Fan support is a fickle thing).

The writers have to know that bringing her back might pacify fans for a short while, but they'll run into the same problems of her not fitting into the team dynamics and having no relevant storylines all over again. 

Edit: I know the talk has mostly been around whenever LL or Black Siren would return for the crossover, and I ended up going off on a tangent. But I think the general point still stands: With so many characters to play with they're not going to waste the crossover on a character that was either hated or regarded with apathy until a few episodes before she died.

Edited June 6, 2016 by TimetravellingBW

[Chaser]

See I don't equate sudden popularity with backlash. Backlash would be something like Lexa on The 100. Ratings took a nosedive, major outlets took notice, shrowrunners made statements. Nothing close to that happened here. 

With Laurel, the reactions were pretty much what you would expect from the places you would think. What I mean by sudden popularity is more people looking at the character with rose colored glasses and those anti Arrow using her as their focal point. If that makes sense.