Spoiler Discussion Thread

[catrox14]

Well, that will just be a thing. And then what she moves over to the Flash?

[tarotx]

It's weird that they are fleshing out the collar the episode before she died and the one after she died. Laurel really was just an after thought. And if Baby BC is a meta human-wow. 

[Velocity23]

I love Paul Blackthorne!

 

"What's gonna happen to the BC? Well, she's dead. I had a dead bird in my backyard."

[Morrigan2575]

Meta?

Laurel Clone?

Tech Genius?

Lance's illegitimate daughter?

I'm just spit balling here.

At this point I'm waiting for her to be a Meta and be called Pretty Bird. LOL

[nksarmi]

I just want her gone.  I really don't know if I can keep watching with Baby Canary on the show. It's just so wrong. 

[calliope1975]

That PB quote - damn. Dry British wit? I suppose all the goodbyes have been less than effusive. 

 

If Baby Canary is a metahuman, that's such a slap in the face, and I will be forced to LOL all night long.

[nksarmi]

I mean Baby Canary is clearly a "we hated Laurel/KC" sign, but why do we - as fans - have to suffer through their collective f-u to KC?  I loved Sara.  They killed her to make Laurel BC because of their idiotic belief that someone has to die to spur a hero's journey (I can't tell you how grateful I am that Roy is still alive despite Thea becoming Speedy). They resurrected Sara because they realized they needed her for their spin off and I'm loving her on Legends.  Now they've killed Laurel - let BC die with her.  This is DUMB.  I hate that they are spending one second on it when we still have Andy/Diggle drama to deal with, Oliver/Felicity drama to deal with, and perhaps Feliciy/Dad drama to deal with. That's just enough.

[catrox14]

Meta?

Laurel Clone?

Tech Genius?

Lance's illegitimate daughter?

I'm just spit balling here.

At this point I'm waiting for her to be a Meta and be called Pretty Bird. LOL

 

Oh gods. That's what's going to happen. Oliver will call her Pretty Bird or some stupid thing because...comics. 

[Morrigan2575]

I mean Baby Canary is clearly a "we hated Laurel/KC" sign, but why do we - as fans - have to suffer through their collective f-u to KC? I loved Sara. They killed her to make Laurel BC because of their idiotic belief that someone has to die to spur a hero's journey (I can't tell you how grateful I am that Roy is still alive despite Thea becoming Speedy). They resurrected Sara because they realized they needed her for their spin off and I'm loving her on Legends. Now they've killed Laurel - let BC die with her. This is DUMB. I hate that they are spending one second on it when we still have Andy/Diggle drama to deal with, Oliver/Felicity drama to deal with, and perhaps Feliciy/Dad drama to deal with. That's just enough.

At this point I'm just done. It's 2 days away and then we'll have some answers.

[Starfish35]

Same. I'm just laughing at this point. Until the episode airs and I know exactly what we're dealing with, I can't do anything else.

[Sunshine]

I wonder if it's a "test" run to see if a recurring BC would work for S5 similar to Nyssa's appearances in S2-S4.  The EPs mentioned fan bases before the season began: Oliver, Felicity, Diggle & Black Canary.  One of those is unlike the others.  Requests for BC have included motorcycle, being called Dinah & pretty bird, being a metahuman, and having superior martial arts skills.  I haven't seen requests for actual story.  If Black Canary is just a mantle a LOA or Hidden cult trained fighter could appear who is also a metahuman.  Or someone could have created her a device similar to Laurel's. Sara had sonic devices they just were hand held.

 

It could just be a homage to the DC character but it might also be a trial run.  I wish we knew who the BC is in the finale - MM or Atlin as an apparition or something similar.     

[quarks]

For what it's worth, this may not be so much of a fuck you to KC as it is Berlanti and co obeying the current Time Warner dictate of "use every DC character," reported in The Wall Street Journal and other outlets. If this Baby Canary character ends up being popular - and who knows - she, too, can sell action figures and T-shirts and so on. If not - look, Arrow can say we sincerely, positively, absolutely, tried to get a Black Canary on this show. THREE TIMES.  We're done. Really, we're done.  

 

That it also happens to come across otherwise to fans - well, we can debate at length how intentional that is.  

[nksarmi]

[Edited by mod: analysis of how different fans feel or don't feel is still fan talk.]

 

 It does not give me good feelings about season five even if they do dangle Russia, Bravta, and olicity in front of me.

Edited April 26, 2016 by MuuMuuChainsmoker

[Sakura12]

Well they can make Baby Canary, Sara's daughter from the future that she sent back to help. She could just have Gideon make Laurel's outfit and a stronger canary collar. Then they can have their mother and daughter Canary's, because comics. 

[nksarmi]

Well they can make Baby Canary, Sara's daughter from the future that she sent back to help. She could just have Gideon make Laurel's outfit and a stronger canary collar. Then they can have their mother and daughter Canary's, because comics. 

 

If they did this on Legends first and cast a really super awesome girl - I might accept it.  But that doesn't appear to be where they are going with this.

[wonderwall]

I don't understand the big deal with the name, "Black Canary"... Sara is already awesome. And the name won't change that which is why I'm like this in terms of Baby Canary: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

This is the problem I had with LL. She had the name, but that never changed how terrible of a character she was. Just like how the name won't change Sara. 

 

[Mod edit]...it's the person behind the mask and name that truly matters.

 

I'm not going to complain about this until we know what's on screen tbh. For all we know this character is going to be in 2 episodes for a couple of minutes...

Edited April 26, 2016 by MuuMuuChainsmoker

[SmallScreenDiva]

I don't take Baby Canary as an effort to "please" BC fans. This could very well be last-ditch effort to "save" a character, one that could sell merchandise and comic books, as Quarks mentioned. That was one of reasons I couldn't fathom earlier on that Arrow would kill Laurel. Not because of any great love for the character or the actress, but because popular or not, having the character on the show would still be free advertising for all the merchandise connected with her. 

[Starfish35]

Baby Canary is an insult to that because Sara couldn't have the title because she wasn't Dinah Laurel Lance. Sara fans are going to be pissed that Sara had to give up the black to Laurel but some never-before-seen teenager can have the costume and title if this lasts more than one episode. To be honest, I will be among them.

And so will I. I want to see what the situation actually is first, but, while part of me will think it's hilarious if Baby Canary is given everything Laurel wasn't, the Sara fan in me will be extremely irritated. Sara wasn't deemed good enough to be Black Canary, but Random Unconnected Teenager can be?

But I'm too tired right now to waste energy getting annoyed until I actually know what's going on. Lol. There's a lot about this that isn't adding up, so I just want to wait and see.

[thegirlsleuth]

I don't take Baby Canary as an effort to "please" BC fans. This could very well be last-ditch effort to "save" a character, one that could sell merchandise and comic books, as Quarks mentioned. That was one of reasons I couldn't fathom earlier on that Arrow would kill Laurel. Not because of any great love for the character or the actress, but because popular or not, having the character on the show would still be free advertising for all the merchandise connected with her.

I wonder if it was the merchandise that sunk her. I feel like they moved quickly on the Sarah action figure, and Felicity got a Funko based on outspoken demand. If there was no demand for the Arrow Black Canary merchandise and she wasn't driving comic sales, maybe DC said cut her loose.

I'm wondering if they are going to send Baby Canary off to train with either Nyssa or Talia (who has been introduced on LoT) and that way Black Canary could be in universe, returning periodically as a crime fighting machine before hitting the road again. In addition I'm really interested in seeing how Laurel's intro on Flash goes. If they kill Laurel 2 making it impossible for her to return on any show, I will be convinced that they are burning the Laurel character down and salting the earth.

[wonderwall]

I honestly think that the reason why Sara never became BC was because of BTS issues. You can clearly tell that killing Sara was such a last minute deal and especially after everything we learned about Sara in S2, I find it hard to believe that the writers wanted to part with the character especially considering how a lot of the cast and crew members were calling her BC (even Geoff Johns).

 

And now Sara can't become BC because Laurel was BC. It's not that she's not good enough, it's just that the title has already been taken. And who knows, Baby Canary might be written off as a copycat and nothing more. And I don't think Sara deserves to be seen the way Laurel was seen in S3 when she essentially SWFed Sara. 

 

And again, it's not about deserving the title, it's about giving the title meaning and value. Can Sara do Black Canary justice? Absolutely. But with the mess that entails the title in the Flarrow universe, I don't see why anyone would want to saddle Sara with a title with a messy history. 

[thegirlsleuth]

Just noticed the merchandise conversation over in Behind the Scenes. I'd move my post, except I'm on my phone.

Re: Sara not being the Black Canary, I absolutely think the block came from behind the scenes. Dtissagirl did a write up a few months ago mapping out what was happening in show with Laurel and what we think was happening behind the scenes, and I definitely think Caity was being positioned. What's more, I think Amell was actively pushing for her--at several con appearances he made a big deal of having the crowds cheer for Caity being the Black Canary. The one good thing for Caity is that she is turning out to be breakout star of her own series and making a name for herself as an action hero, which she might not be able to do it she was Green Arrows sidekick, which is all she'd be on Arrow as Black Canary.

[bijoux]

Did anyone catch the potential DC character PB whispered on his Q&A?

[spartan]

laurel lance is always black canary, I'm sure it is because of this new canary that arrow team will decide to reveal to star city that  laurel is the true black canary, which is why we will see on the tombstone  name of the black canary, this will be like a tribute to laurel lance.

[DeadZeus]

I could care less if BC was Laurel, Sara, or some random chick named Betty Mcblonde... Sara was great and had a decent backstory to how she became it... Laurel had nothing on that imo. Don't care about comic book lore, i like the show they made with their own story and their own interpretation of the characters. Forcing Laurel to become BC was stupid IMO!

[Morrigan2575]

Posted a few things in Spoilers Only

Looks like Olicity reunion isn't happening by 423 (my take on TV Guide interview) 

 

Also worried that Oliver is going to out himself as GA in 423 (again,  TV Guide).  Hope I'm wrong, really don't like that.

[looptab]

36 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Posted a few things in Spoilers Only

Looks like Olicity reunion isn't happening by 423 (my take on TV Guide interview) 

Also worried that Oliver is going to out himself as GA in 423 (again,  TV Guide).  Hope I'm wrong, really don't like that.

Yeah, I'm not liking what that TvGuide article seems to imply either. :/

[bijoux]

44 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Catching up since forum was offline yesterday

DR interview, no Dilicity scenes :(

Why do you think they have no scenes? The article states:

Quote

 

As for the other major change to the team — Felicity (Emily Bett Rickards) stepping down — fans haven’t seen much of Diggle’s thoughts about one of his best friends leaving the group. While Ramsey says that particular side of the relationship likely wont’ be addressed “as much as the fans would like,” he does have a reaction.

Furthermore, team or not, these are people who will grieve a loss together. Beyond Team Arrow, they’re simply a family that is suffering. “There’s some great moments that Diggle and Felicity have in terms of how they deal with their grief that we haven’t seen yet,” Ramsey teases.

 

So my read is they do have scenes together, just that they are more focused on grieving Laurel than on Dig's opinion about Felicity leaving the team.

42 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Posted a few things in Spoilers Only

Looks like Olicity reunion isn't happening by 423 (my take on TV Guide interview) 

Also worried that Oliver is going to out himself as GA in 423 (again,  TV Guide).  Hope I'm wrong, really don't like that.

The article doesn't really tell me much about their relationship to be honest. It could be referring to the finale or it could be referring to the stretch of episodes leading up to it.

Edited April 27, 2016 by bijoux

[Morrigan2575]

26 minutes ago, bijoux said:

Why do you think they have no scenes? The article states:

So my read is they do have scenes together, just that they are more focused on grieving Laurel than on Dig's opinion about Felicity leaving the team.

The article doesn't really tell me much about their relationship to be honest. It could be referring to the finale or it could be referring to the stretch of episodes leading up to it.

I had the exact opposite take. The characters themselves have great scenes/reactions to Laurel's death. Not that they have great scenes together, one on one dealing with the fallout of Laurel's death.

Given what little we know, it seems that most of this will be Oliver/Diggle and Oliver/Felicity reaction/interaction.  DR pretty clearly implies that the fans won't get as much Dilicity interaction as they hope for. Since DR is one of the main proponents of Dilicity and OTA since S2, if he's saying that, IMO it means non to minimal.

Edited April 27, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[jay741982]

Yeah the prospect of Olicity not reuniting and team possibly being broken up doesn't get me overjoyed for season 5

[bijoux]

I do think it will be minimal and too little. I don't think there is none though. In fact, I'm 95% sure that dialogue tease is Felicity's line to him.  I don't know who else it would be. Doesn't sound like Thea and Lance will be having his own stuff to deal with. Possibly Lyla, but I'm still leaning towards Felicity.

[AyChihuahua]

I don't really care if he comes out publicly as the GA. I mean, it's dumb as hell, but whatevs. (Also, he'd be arrested by the feds so fast...wouldn't matter one iota if the local prosecutors/cops were fine with him.) I'm a lot more worried about the whole "Felicity comes to terms with her part in their breakup" bit. Her only part in their breakup was breaking up with a man who treated her like shit on his shoe. I'll be really pissed off if they try to make it in any way her fault. Sure she has abandonment issues, but they were totally irrelevant to their breakup. Oliver treated her like shit and lied to her, therefore she very reasonably dumped his sorry ass. She did nothing wrong in that situation, and if they try to retcon that somehow it was partly her fault, well, I guess I'll rage, but that may also be my breaking point with this show. I'm already really bored of the repetitive storylines and manufactured drama and Thea/Malcolm of it all.

[apinknightmare]

3 minutes ago, bijoux said:

I do think it will be minimal and too little. I don't think there is none though. In fact, I'm 95% sure that dialogue tease is Felicity's line to him.  I don't know who else it would be. Doesn't sound like Thea and Lance will be having his own stuff to deal with. Possibly Lyla, but I'm still leaning towards Felicity.

Yeah, I think she's the one who says it, too. Since he'll be beating himself up over trusting Andy and everything that followed. 

[Belinea]

Murder is still a crime that you get put in prison for even if you did it out of the kindness of your heart. So Oliver opening up about his status as GA is maybe a little weird to me. But maybe people really believe it was Roy all along and Oliver is now the one who only kills the bad guy when necessary. 

To be quite honest, it sounds like a lot of bla bla bla.  Nothing really gets resolved by the end and we can come back in October and see them still deal with the emotional events of 4x23. 

[bijoux]

5 minutes ago, AyChihuahua said:

I'm a lot more worried about the whole "Felicity comes to terms with her part in their breakup" bit. 

Until it unfolds, I'm just hoping it's strangely phrased and ignoring it to be honest.

[tarotx]

My take from TV Guide is that maybe Felicity is going to realize that she has forgiven Oliver too much for not being a true partner. That running away with him last summer was a big mistake for them as a couple because it reconfirmed to Oliver that secret keeping might be the best course of action if it ends up OK in the end.  With that knowledge she isn't going to just fall back into a relationship. Oliver is going to have to spend longer than a few days proving he can be a true partner. 

Edited April 27, 2016 by tarotx
Grammer and spelling are never my friend >.<

[looptab]

I thought DR meant that the fans wouldn't get the kind of scenes they were expecting, as in they won't talk about Felicity leaving the Team, but they'll talk about Laurel and whatever happens after that.

[bijoux]

1 minute ago, tarotx said:

My take from TV is that maybe Felicity is going to realize that she has forgiven Oliver too much for not being a true partner and running away with him last summer was a big mistake for them as a couple because it reconfirmed to Oliver that secret keeping might be the best cause of action if it ends up OK in the end.  With that knowledge she isn't going to just fall back into a relationship. Oliver is going to have to spend longer than a few days proving he can be a true partner. 

I like this line of thinking. It didn't cross my mind but I certainly wouldn't mind to see it unfold.

[AyChihuahua]

Vigilante-ing is illegal. It doesn't matter that he only kills occasionally now...you can't break into someone's property, shoot their guards in the shoulder with arrows, and not get charged with multiple crimes. It's the same reason someone can't break into your house and then claim self-defense when you defend yourself. What Oliver is doing now, even as the kinder and gentler GA, is totally illegal. (Same with what Felicity does...hacking is illegal, even if it's for a good purpose, unless you work for law enforcement.)

I still don't really care, though. I can suspend disbelief. I have watched enough superhero movies to get over all my issues about civil and criminal liability.

I hope you are all right that they don't try to make it at all her fault, but I have absolutely zero trust in these writers.

[apinknightmare]

3 minutes ago, bijoux said:

Until it unfolds, I'm just hoping it's strangely phrased and ignoring it to be honest.

The "her part in the breakup" is awful wording, since she didn't do anything wrong. But I figured it was about her concrete stance that Oliver couldn't and wouldn't ever change. Because we all know she's wrong about that - a little bit of time should make her able to see that too. 

[bijoux]

8 minutes ago, Belinea said:

Murder is still a crime that you get put in prison for even if you did it out of the kindness of your heart. So Oliver opening up about his status as GA is maybe a little weird to me. But maybe people really believe it was Roy all along and Oliver is now the one who only kills the bad guy when necessary. 

To be quite honest, it sounds like a lot of bla bla bla.  Nothing really gets resolved by the end and we can come back in October and see them still deal with the emotional events of 4x23. 

If he does come out as GA and people believe he is only GA and not the Arrow, has he killed anyone this season? Obviously, he's still breaking the law, I just imagine the SCPD don't give a crap seeing as he was hanging out with their captain on a crime scene with half a dozen other cops there.

 

1 minute ago, apinknightmare said:

The "her part in the breakup" is awful wording, since she didn't do anything wrong. But I figured it was about her concrete stance that Oliver couldn't and wouldn't ever change. Because we all know she's wrong about that - a little bit of time should make her able to see that too. 

This would also be fine with me.

[Morrigan2575]

OMG this Upgrade fucking sucks! Sorry, this site is such shit right now I can't even read it.

/venting

Actually it's easier to deal with on a phone. Logged in from my laptop it's one of the worst/cheapest web designs I've seen in years.  

Hopefully these are the "bugs" that they're hoping to fix once IT wakes up

Edited April 27, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[Guest]

Yikes. Not liking this site upgrade.

Well...nothing is making me excited for this episode. That dialogue tease the writers tweeted has me worried it's Felicity and I don't want her to be snarky about Oliver's kid in this episode. Please let it be someone else. It definitely feels like someone is talking to Diggle and for once I don't want a Delicity scene if it means Felicity is talking like that. 

Also that TV Guide thing has me side-eyeing WM because in what universe is Felicity to blame for the break-up? Unless she means that they're going to explore Felicity's abandonment issues or maybe have her wrong about Oliver never changing and always being the man on the island, it's unfair to place any blame on Felicity. Oliver lied about having a kid. The end.

[looptab]

RE: the sneak peak: break my heart Quentin, will you? 

[AyChihuahua]

Description for those of us who can't watch videos at work!

[Morrigan2575]

I really hope that dialogue tease isn't Felicity  (although i fear it is).  I don't think i will like it.

I don't like the thing about Felicity seeing her side in the breakup but, i wouldn't be surprised if they place some blame on her.  Remember she just meeds time and Oliver was totally 100% right to keep it from her. /snark

In all seriousness though, i think making Felicity partially responsible for the breakup is probably the easiest/quickest way to put them on track for a reunion without spending too much time/trouble actually dealing with their issues.

I'm  (one of the few) hoping that they don't reunite by the finale but, if they do I fully expect it will be a S3 redux.  Not really dealing with anything, happy reunion just to put them together 

[looptab]

5 minutes ago, AyChihuahua said:

Description for those of us who can't watch videos at work!

Oliver is moping in the bunker; Felicity, Thea and Diggle arrive and there's that scene from the comic preview about "climbing in their own grief" (horrible line). Enters Quentin with a newspaper with an article about BC stopping some criminals last night. They check the bag with her clothes and the collar is missing. Quentin is hopeful that  it was Laurel, that she is alive, since the other 500 people thought dead weren't dead dead. Everyone exchanges awkward glances. Oh this is going to be hard.

Edited April 27, 2016 by looptab

[Sunshine]

I have to admit I am not very excited after reading the TV Guide scan.  I thought maybe Felicity's fault in the break-up might be her defense mechanism of always walking away instead of attempting to work through the problems. How many times have we seen her have the last word and then walk away in the last 2 seasons beginning with 3.01?  It might be a way of leaving before he can leave her. 

I am hoping the line is said by either Ruve Adams or Damian Darhk.  I'll be shocked if it's said to anyone besides Diggle.

[quarks]

I also thought that the "Felicity realizing she was wrong" about the breakup was a reference to "Felicity realizes that Oliver CAN change and is no longer alone in the island." But then, I'm expecting Oliver and Felicity to get back together in episode 422 or 423. 

[AyChihuahua]

Things that make me hopeful that apinknightmare and/or tarotx are right (I'd be fine with either scenario): they did actually call Oliver's actions "lies," which surprised me. Additionally, Digg, who had been all "Buck up, Oliver, she'll get over your minor misdeeds," kinda destroyed Oliver in the last episode for his actions towards Felicity.

Things that make me concerned that apinknightmare and/or tarotx are wrong and they do attempt to put some breakup blame on Felicity: nearing four years of history with this show, in which the writers often make the dumbest writing decisions ever.

[ComicFan777]

I think the snarky dialogue tease is Damian Darkh saying it to Diggle, after Diggle goes off the rails and punches Ruve.