Spoiler Discussion Thread

[apinknightmare]

I'm pretty sure this is right after Malcolm pays a visit and they all find out about Oliver's death. I mean, she is wearing the same purple dress as she is when Malcolm announces his death. I think that line is her just being human. She just lost someone she loves, obviously she'll lash out a bit? But hopefully she comes back to Team Arrow because they need her as much as she needs them. 

 

Yeah, I think (or hope, really hope) that it's just her initial grief talking so she leaves for a bit. I know she'll be helping Ray with his suit, but I hope she splits her time - I can't see her letting Digg and Roy go out there blind. 

[NumberCruncher]

"There is no this without him"

...and thus Felicity perfectly sums up all my feelings regarding the next 3, 4,... episodes.

[wonderwall]

Yeah, I think (or hope, really hope) that it's just her initial grief talking so she leaves for a bit. I know she'll be helping Ray with his suit, but I hope she splits her time - I can't see her letting Digg and Roy go out there blind. 

IMO I think the timeline goes like this:

When Felicity's in that red dress, that's prior to her learning about Oliver's 'death'. This is also the part where she goes "Please Oliver, where are you?" and when she helps Ray with his suit. 

 

Then the purple dress is worn on the day she learns about Oliver. She seems to be walking out of the foundry when she's saying it so it's definitely after Malcolm shows up. Also, I think she's going to end up at her office afterwards and will probably blow up at Ray because she seems to be arguing or yelling at Ray in the image below. 

[DrSpaceman10]

Why do they always have her go to Ray when she's sad? I wish they'd stop that...

[wonderwall]

Why do they always have her go to Ray when she's sad? I wish they'd stop that...

To be fair, she doesn't GO to Ray. She goes to be alone in her office and he always shows up. 

[apinknightmare]

Why do they always have her go to Ray when she's sad? I wish they'd stop that...

 

Because they're going to bond over the grief of losing their one true loves or something difficult to watch like that, haha. 

[apinknightmare]

To be fair, she doesn't GO to Ray. She goes to be alone in her office and he always shows up. 

 

Does he have a closed-circuit camera system in her office complete with a tear detector that sends alerts to his phone to let him know when she's crying? Possibly.

[looptab]

I hope it's going to be diggle that pulls her back in and not something Ray or Laurel say. That line "Please Oliver where are you" slayed me :'(

[apinknightmare]

I hope it's going to be diggle that pulls her back in and not something Ray or Laurel say. That line "Please Oliver where are you" slayed me :'(

 

I actually don't care who convinces her to go back as long as she does. 

[Carrie Ann]

I don't really know how she's going to talk to Ray about Oliver. She can't really be specific, can she? I can't really remember how much Ray implied he knew about the Arrow stuff. But I don't see her saying she would no longer work with Dig and Roy, and then continuing to help Ray with his attempt to be a vigilante. That makes no sense...which sounds about right for S3, so it's probably going to happen. Or in this scene, Ray will be inspiring and convince her that the fight continues and she'll pull herself together and help both.

[Password]

Does he have a closed-circuit camera system in her office complete with a tear detector that sends alerts to his phone to let him know when she's crying? Possibly.

That is horrifyingly possible.

It's kinda irritating. Felicity and Diggle's relationship thus far has been non existent.

[looptab]

 Or in this scene, Ray will be inspiring and convince her that the fight continues and she'll pull herself together and help both.

I think this is what's going to happen. Meh.

[apinknightmare]

I don't really know how she's going to talk to Ray about Oliver. She can't really be specific, can she? I can't really remember how much Ray implied he knew about the Arrow stuff. But I don't see her saying she would no longer work with Dig and Roy, and then continuing to help Ray with his attempt to be a vigilante. That makes no sense...which sounds about right for S3, so it's probably going to happen. Or in this scene, Ray will be inspiring and convince her that the fight continues and she'll pull herself together and help both.

 

The Arrow stuff doesn't matter so much, because I think she can talk about loving him outside of that, but I don't think she can tell him that Oliver Queen is dead. So it's probably going to be one of those instances where she's upset and lashes out and he gets all mansplainy and tells her that he knows she's not angry with him and here's a platitude that is scarily on point to your situation to make you feel better, because I'm a souper sensitive dude, please love me.

[Chaser]

Didn't EBR post an instagram from the van with Arsensal and LL in costume? I thought that was 3x11 or 3x12? So if she leaves Team Arrow it won't be for long. If it wasn't for Ray, I would be cool with her leaving the Foundry for an episode to bury herself in work.

 

I will be really upset if we get emotional Diggle with Laurel and emotional Felicity with Ray, but little with Diggle and Felicity. It would be on par with this season, but I would still be pissed.

[Carrie Ann]

The Arrow stuff doesn't matter so much, because I think she can talk about loving him outside of that, but I don't think she can tell him that Oliver Queen is dead. So it's probably going to be one of those instances where she's upset and lashes out and he gets all mansplainy and tells her that he knows she's not angry with him and here's a platitude that is scarily on point to your situation to make you feel better, because I'm a souper sensitive dude, please love me.

 

That's about where I landed with it too. It seems like she's not going to be able to be fully honest with how devastated she is, or how it's affecting her life, because he doesn't know about any of this stuff. Which is fine, I don't want them bonding over their grief. But yeah, I feel almost sure he'll be the spark for her staying in the fray, which SUCKS because she would come to the same conclusion on her own and giving it to Ray to mansplain it to her is just another way they will use Felicity to prop him up. HATE SO MUCH.

 

Hmmm--what's that you say? None of this has happened yet and I'm getting mad about nothing? Shhhhhh.

[Guest]

Oh look. Felicity's upset and Ray is there. SHOCKER. Ugh. Go away already. It's so predictable how this is going. 

 

That was a good promo. Looks interesting. I'll be tuning in even though I think it's a huge mistake to have Oliver missing for however many episodes. But omg Felicity's line was so sad. 

[apinknightmare]

Didn't EBR post an instagram from the van with Arsensal and LL in costume? I thought that was 3x11 or 3x12? So if she leaves Team Arrow it won't be for long. If it wasn't for Ray, I would be cool with her leaving the Foundry for an episode to bury herself in work.

 

I will be really upset if we get emotional Diggle with Laurel and emotional Felicity with Ray, but little with Diggle and Felicity. It would be on par with this season, but I would still be pissed.

 

I fully anticipate Ray saying something to Felicity that motivates her to get back to her side job, but since Diggle has been a driving force between Oliver and Felicity with regards to their feelings for each other (encouraging Oliver to ask her out, STUPIDLY going to Felicity's office to talk to her about spending time with Ray), I would be surprised if he didn't go to her at some point, knowing how devastated she must be, because she didn't just lose her teammate, she lost the man that she loves. I know some people aren't keen on that being Diggle's "role," but if anything, I think we can at least expect him to talk to her about her feelings for him and how he would've wanted her to help them continue cleaning up the city in his name (or something). 

[Chaser]

CH was asked how Roy is going to cope/grieve and he listed three things. I only remember two: ice cream and Felicity. If he is serious about Felicity, I would be okay with Roy bringing Felicity back to Team Arrow. Maybe Diggle decides to give her some time to grieve (and because he already lost Oliver and can't lose Felicity too). I would still want comfort scenes with Diggle, but I could see that happening.

[looptab]

What I don't understand is why they had Diggle agreeing with Oliver about his leaving the Team in the premiere. There was supposed to be some sort of struggle but  from what we've seen in the show and DR's interviews Diggle has already come to terms with being both a crime-fighter and a father. If he were the one saying "well, it's over now" it would fit in the narrative they supposedly estabilished, but apparently that's not happening. So that bit in the premiere was just pointless, IMO.

[Chaser]

I was thinking about the photo of her and Ray. That could be before she finds out and she is on edge because its been three days. I would think the last shot would either be Felicity walking out of the Foundry or LL in Cosplay

[apinknightmare]

What I don't understand is why they had Diggle agreeing with Oliver about his leaving the Team in the premiere. There was supposed to be some sort of struggle but  from what we've seen in the show and DR's interviews Diggle has already come to terms with being both a crime-fighter and a father. If he were the one saying "well, it's over now" it would fit in the narrative they supposedly estabilished, but apparently that's not happening. So that bit in the premiere was just pointless, IMO.

 

Well, I think we were meant to believe that he was ready and willing to leave, was drawn back in for Sara (still not having really changed his mind, but wanting to see that mission through to the end), but now that Oliver's gone he's going to realize that he does have a calling for it, it is something he wants to do, and now that Oliver (his reason for getting involved in the first place) is gone, he's going to continue on because it's what he feels is right/what he needs to do. I think this is going to be when he realizes he can/will be both.

[looptab]

Well, I think we were meant to believe that he was ready and willing to leave, was drawn back in for Sara (still not having really changed his mind, but wanting to see that mission through to the end), but now that Oliver's gone he's going to realize that he does have a calling for it, it is something he wants to do, and now that Oliver (his reason for getting involved in the first place) is gone, he's going to continue on because it's what he feels is right/what he needs to do. I think this is going to be when he realizes he can/will be both.

Yes, I get that's what they were (supposedly) doing, but, since he was the one leaving in the first place, wouldn't it make more sense if at first he were inclined to leave the team again, this time for good? And then of course realize it's what he does, it's his life, etc etc. Instead from the promo it looks like he's already in motivational mode for the others.

This could be just an editing issue, though, and maybe he'll be the one asking "What do we do? Do we keep doing this?This was all Oliver was working for." to which Felicity replies as we've seen. So I'll wait it plays out before complaining, I guess :)

[apinknightmare]

Yes, I get that's what they were (supposedly) doing, but, since he was the one leaving in the first place, wouldn't it make more sense if at first he were inclined to leave the team again, this time for good? And then of course realize it's what he does, it's his life, etc etc. Instead from the promo it looks like he's already in motivational mode for the others.

This could be just an editing issue, though, and maybe he'll be the one asking "What do we do? Do we keep doing this?This was all Oliver was working for." to which Felicity replies as we've seen. So I'll wait it plays out before complaining, I guess :)

 

To me, it doesn't really matter if he steps back and then decides to join back up, or whether he decides to do it right away - either way Oliver's death is an impetus for him to realize that he's in it and he's going to stay, despite the fact that he had at one point considered leaving. Maybe he has second thoughts after Felicity says "there is no this without him," and they all go and lick their wounds and come back together?

 

Maybe there is a time jump, and the time immediately after news of Oliver's death is shown in flashbacks, and they're all working as a team in the present. It's tough to say how it goes down since Brick is the villain for more than one ep, which suggests a continued storyline in the present. Is Brick not much of a force in 3x10 and more of an issue in 3x11 and 3x12? Do they maybe take care of Brick's immediate threat in 3x10, then there's a time jump between that and 3x11 - and Brick's back for whatever reason and they regroup and get back together as a team? I just don't know.

[Chaser]

Felicity was the one that turned on the lights in the Foundry when they got Oliver back in S2. And she is the one to turn off the lights now that he's gone.

[wonderwall]

Felicity was the one that turned on the lights in the Foundry when they got Oliver back in S2. And she is the one to turn off the lights now that he's gone.

Wow, that was deep :') AND AWESOME. 

[looptab]

It's true, there's really no way of telling how things will go. By the way, I didn't mean he should necessarily step back for a while, I'd be content even with a single line where he is doubting his permanence on the team :) Just to have some coherence, because really, otherwise that scene in the premiere was just an unnecessary step in cementing Oliver's conviction to call it off with Felicity, and who needs that?!! ;)

[BkWurm1]

This is terrible, but for the sake of those watching live, I hope that the amount of Laurel has been exaggerated.  But for my sake, I hope that if Laurel is front and center, it is an awful, epic fail so that we never have to endure this again.

 

I think we are damned if she ist terrible and damned if she isn’t.   If she’s bad (ok, when she’s bad) and she’s panned and pointed at and ridiculed, the producers are just going to rub their hands together and say, “Yes, yes, it’s just as we planned…first she fails.”  And if for some odd reason they don’t get that intense negative response they will just say, see, fast forwarding to BC is what the people wanted.    

Which is fine, I don't want them bonding over their grief. But yeah, I feel almost sure he'll be the spark for her staying in the fray, which SUCKS because she would come to the same conclusion on her own and giving it to Ray to mansplain it to her is just another way they will use Felicity to prop him up. HATE SO MUCH.

 

The main thing that Ray can give her is an outlet for her grief; I don’t mean a shoulder to cry on but a project that she can bury herself in.  I’d be ok if that is Ray’s roll, but I want Felicity to stop crying in her office.  Tears sometimes are about hope and if she thinks Oliver is gone for good I can see the tears going away and a steely resolve surfacing.  Crosses fingers.

[tv echo]

I think that MG has given up on trying to deny that the next three episodes are a Laurel/BC trilogy. Here's the Tumblr conversation in context:

chall-enge-accepted asked:

the writing for season 2&3 has been 1 sided regarding the shows "ships" which is the reason why Katie/Laurel is getting a lot of hate from the fans. Also it doesn't help when she's barely shown! Pls do something about it cause Katie is AMAZING!

Katie is front and center in our upcoming episodes.

MG could've responded in any number of ways other than using the words "front and center".

Edited January 14, 2015 by tv echo

[Guest]

RE: some of the spoilery answers MG gave. Why on earth would Oliver be calling Laurel 'pretty bird' like ever? I know it's a comic book thing but IMO that will only ever be organic if they're in a relationship again. And I know that's a remote possibility in the future (personally I really can't see it) but even then it's just feels like a really cheesy thing to say.

 

Also why did MG say it wasn't a Laurel trilogy when he's pretty much confirming it is now? It makes no sense.

[apinknightmare]

RE: some of the spoilery answers MG gave. Why on earth would Oliver be calling Laurel 'pretty bird' like ever? I know it's a comic book thing but IMO that will only ever be organic if they're in a relationship again. And I know that's a remote possibility in the future (personally I really can't see it) but even then it's just feels like a really cheesy thing to say.

 

Also why did MG say it wasn't a Laurel trilogy when he's pretty much confirming it is now? It makes no sense.

 

If the term "pretty bird" ever comes out of Oliver's mouth when he's not talking about an actual bird, I will hit the power button on my TV. I would've done the same thing if he said it to Sara, because that's some cheesy stuff you can get away with in a comic, but please...no. 

 

He changed his tune earlier because he was talking to someone who either wasn't excited about the prospect of Laurelfest 2015 or was asking about the number of fans who aren't excited about it, so no! Of course it's not about her! He's talking to a Laurel fan there, so it's okay to say it. I wonder if he thinks all his comments exist in some kind of weird vacuum where nothing ever gets to anyone who wouldn't want to read it. It's so weird, this game they play.

[Chaser]

The way I see it: Laurel is taking over the A-Plot. And its all about Black Canary. I don't think the screentime for Laurel will be as much as Oliver normally gets; only because they are also pushing Ray.

 

"Pretty Bird" may work for Comic-Oliver and Comic-Dinah, but for these characters it would be so condesending no matter what the circumstances. And creepy given Oliver's relationship with Sara.

[Guest]

If the term "pretty bird" ever comes out of Oliver's mouth when he's not talking about an actual bird, I will hit the power button on my TV. I would've done the same thing if he said it to Sara, because that's some cheesy stuff you can get away with in a comic, but please...no. 

 

He changed his tune earlier because he was talking to someone who either wasn't excited about the prospect of Laurelfest 2015 or was asking about the number of fans who aren't excited about it, so no! Of course it's not about her! He's talking to a Laurel fan there, so it's okay to say it. I wonder if he thinks all his comments exist in some kind of weird vacuum where nothing ever gets to anyone who wouldn't want to read it. It's so weird, this game they play.

 

MTE. If Oliver ever said that to Felicity I'd still mentally shudder. It's such a weird thing to say. I really hope MG was just being diplomatic with his answer because IMO that is never going to be organic or motivated. No thanks. Never.

 

It seems like he's just trying to give everyone what they want with his answers so people still tune in and ends up contradicting himself in the process. This is the major downfall with too much exposure on social media. I'd prefer it if he just be quiet now tbh.

 

The way I see it: Laurel is taking over the A-Plot. And its all about Black Canary. I don't think the screentime for Laurel will be as much as Oliver normally gets; only because they are also pushing Ray.

 

"Pretty Bird" may work for Comic-Oliver and Comic-Dinah, but for these characters it would be so condesending no matter what the circumstances. And creepy given Oliver's relationship with Sara.

 

Agreed. But I'm expecting a lot more Laurel than we've ever had before. 

 

And yes, so condescending. Ugh. 

[ban1o]

Posted a Katie Cassidy interview in spoilers if anyone cares to read! 

Edited January 14, 2015 by ban1o

[wonderwall]

 

-- Asked to describe Laurel in 3 words during the next few episodes, MG says: "Three words?  Black Canary, bitch!"

This is the problem with Laurel's arc. It's not about Laurel, it's about BC. And I know that sounds crazy because Laurel is BC, but she's not. BC is just a mask, what matters is who is underneath that mask. So basically all I got from taht answer is that Laurel's arc will be quite shallow in terms of her 'transformation'. The fact that he couldn't come up with 3 adjectives describing Laurel's arc like he did with Felicity (something about standing strong) then that's just ridiculous and leaves me no faith in the writers to actually make Laurel's arc successful. 

[Chaser]

I understand your point and I agree.

 

I hated the "Bitch" at the end. He could have said "The Black Canary" or "Becoming Black Canary" he still could have used Black Canary without adding that.

[tv echo]

There was a spoiler somewhere that Laurel turns to Nyssa (not Team Arrow) about her problem of not telling her father about Sara's death.  That made me think that the EPs are building toward a friendship between Laurel and Nyssa that could lead to several possibilities, esp. if they want Laurel's Black Canary to be martial arts trained:

 

1.  Out of love for Sara, Nyssa trains Laurel secretly - without the knowledge or permission of Ra's/LOA.

 

2.  Laurel agrees to join the LOA in exchange for training.

 

3.  Laurel develops a romantic relationship with Nyssa, thus fully becoming her sister Sara.

 

Any of these possibilities would be plot contrivances.  But I just can't believe that the EPs would leave Laurel with only boxing training and no martial arts training whatsoever.

 

Even so, Oliver will always have a 8-year head start on training (and he continues to train, as he told Barry), so Laurel's Black Canary will never be as good a fighter as Oliver's Green Arrow.

Edited January 14, 2015 by tv echo

[patchwork]

 

Katie is front and center in our upcoming episodes.

 

Yay. That's going to be fun.

 

I predict that the first episode is going to get good ratings because people are going to tune in to see what happened to Oliver but after that they're going to plummet. Laurel episodes never do well.

 

Is this the third or fourth time they've had an upset Felicity go to QC so Ray can comfort her? She has an apartment, she has a car, at work when things get too much you hide in the bathroom and have a bit of a cry if need be but never break down in a goldfish bowl office where everyone can see you! 

Edited January 14, 2015 by patchwork

[SonofaBiscuit]

New magic word for KC: heart.

 

Based on the interview, I think people are right.  Laurel will struggle at first on her own and then team up with Diggle, Felicity, and Roy.

 

I hated the "Bitch" at the end. He could have said "The Black Canary" or "Becoming Black Canary" he still could have used Black Canary without adding that.

 

 

It kind of feels like he's saying "Ha ha bitches.  She'll be BC whether you like it or not!"

Edited January 15, 2015 by SonofaBiscuit

[Sakura12]

Didn't the pirate guy on Ivo's boat call Sara, "little bird" or something like that? 

 

Sara had a pet Black Canary and saw a yellow Canary whilst floating around on the ocean nearly dying. Her taking that name makes a lot of sense. Laurel taking it does not, it especially makes no sense for anyone to call Laurel a pretty bird. 

Edited January 14, 2015 by Sakura12

[wonderwall]

I'd actually have preferred him to use real adjectives like strong, powerful, unwavering or at least badass... We already know she's becoming BC. We've known it since the beginning of the season when they'd bring up the jacket 5000 times. His response lacked substance and that's just worrying .

[apinknightmare]

Based on the interview, I think people are right.  Laurel will struggle at first on her own and then team up with Diggle, Felicity, and Roy.

 

I've been thinking about this, and I wonder where it leaves them when Oliver comes back? SA said at the TCAs that he hadn't worked with Katie as Black Canary, so...does something in "Canaries" scare her off of vigilante-ing for the time being, or does she stop working with him because she finds out where he went and why? I can't imagine her quitting because he doesn't take kindly to her being a costumed crimefighter, and surely he knows her well enough to know that she's going to do what she wants whether it's with him or not, so why not keep her close and help her not get killed? Just wonder where exactly that leads. I'm sure she's going to be a member in that she goes out fighting with Roy and Oliver, but I wonder if that doesn't happen for some reason or another until the end of the season?

[Happy Harpy]

Didn't the pirate guy on Ivo's boat call Sara, "little bird" or something like that?

IIRC, the one played by Jimmy Jean Louis called her "poussin", which means little chick/little bird in French.

[Belinea]

Posted a Katie Cassidy interview in spoilers

How bad/good is it? I tend to stay away from her interviews because once you have read them you can never go back and usually I am seriously annoyed at what I had to read. 

Edited January 14, 2015 by Belinea

[KenyaJ]

There was a spoiler somewhere that Laurel turns to Nyssa (not Team Arrow) about her problem of not telling her father about Sara's death.  That made me think that the EPs are building toward a friendship between Laurel and Nyssa that could lead to several possibilities, esp. if they want Laurel's Black Canary to be martial arts trained:

 

1.  Out of love for Sara, Nyssa trains Laurel secretly - without the knowledge or permission of Ra's/LOA.

 

2.  Laurel agrees to join the LOA in exchange for training.

 

3.  Laurel develops a romantic relationship with Nyssa, thus fully becoming her sister Sara.

 

4. Nyssa takes Laurel back with her to Nanda Parbat at the end of Season 3, and we never have to see her again!

[Sakura12]

I'm wondering if they thought Sara/Caity wouldn't be liked when she appeared, so Laurel could look better. They hired an unknown with very little acting experience and she was the sister that stole the boyfriend after all. However Caity brought more to Sara then they anticipated. Now the supposed first Black Canary is better than the final one. 

 

During one of the cons, Caity said at first the CW wasn't going to hire her, telling her she didn't have the right look for the CW (I guess by look, they meant she didn't look like a walking stick figure)

 

However other signs point to, Sara being the Black Canary, with being a master martial artist, having a sonic scream device, having the LOA connection, dating an al Ghul, taking in a wayward orphan named Sin, knowledge of plants, stealth skills, leadership qualities and fighting for women. That is the Comic BC with a different name. So I really have no idea what they thinking.

 

Laurel becoming BC makes no sense at all in regard to the show I was watching or because comics. 

[Password]

I don't know why I'm still surprised at how little I care about Laurel's storyline. I find myself more interested in Brick than Laurel, and isn't he FOR her story?

I keep thinking the promos are inappropriate. I'm patiently waiting for a mourning foundry and my dreams are repeatedly dashed by the music and action. Is it so much to ask for tears from everyone? I mean really.

[apinknightmare]

So, what I'm getting from KC's interview is that Roy's going to be her advocate for bringing her on the team, and that when she finds out Thea killed Sara she's going to be super forgiving about it. And that she's going to become her sister (please, please stop saying that). 

[Sakura12]

So what I'm gathering from KC interviews is, Laurel has a mental problem where she thinks she's becoming her sister.

 

Does that sound about right? 

Edited January 14, 2015 by Sakura12

[dtissagirl]

So, what I'm getting from KC's interview is that Roy's going to be her advocate for bringing her on the team, and that when she finds out Thea killed Sara she's going to be super forgiving about it. And that she's going to become her sister (please, please stop saying that).

She's keeping the Single White Female storyline of my dreams [aka the one with maximum mockage potential] alive, that's for sure.

[tv echo]

Too bad SA isn't the Arrow EP...

"Laurel is a love from a different part of his life. It's always gonna be there, but the person that he is now… in his mind, Felicity is the match," he continued. "It's just the match that he can't have, from his perspective."

Edited January 14, 2015 by tv echo