Spoiler Discussion Thread

[apinknightmare]

Her telling Thea was really weird a dumb but I think the point of the scene was to establish that Thea didn't remember killing Sara? But yeah the whole secret thing is dumb. I was so sure Lance would find out in the fall finale and I really don't get it. I don't think I'll buy her character as BC but I guess I'll just wait and see. At least she improved physically for the role I guess.  

 

Oh, I think that was definitely the point, but there was probably another way to do that without making Laurel look like a complete jackass. Not sure what it is though, but seriously. 

 

 

Yeah agree. I just don't see them doing zombie Tommy.

 

I'm going to hold out hope for it though, because it's the kind of batshit thing I could get behind on this show, unlike other batshit things.

[wonderwall]

Her telling Thea was really weird a dumb but I think the point of the scene was to establish that Thea didn't remember killing Sara? But yeah the whole secret thing is dumb. I was so sure Lance would find out in the fall finale and I really don't get it. I don't think I'll buy her character as BC but I guess I'll just wait and see. At least she improved physically for the role I guess.  

When Quentin didn't find out in the midseason finale it sort of left a pit in my stomach because of some of the things we've talked about on this board... Basically right now I'm all, please please please please don't let her dress up as Canary to 'show' Quentin that Sara is still alive. I so so so hope she doesn't do this because that would legit be Laurel's character assassination right there and I don't think I could really ever have the possibility of liking her if she did that.

[Danny Franks]

It'd take Zombie Sara to make me even think about watching again. Tommy was kind of useless when he was alive, until the final couple of episodes. All he did was act like an insecure prat around Laurel, and whine about how his dad was a big old meanie.

[ban1o]

 Basically right now I'm all, please please please please don't let her dress up as Canary to 'show' Quentin that Sara is still alive. I so so so hope she doesn't do this because that would legit be Laurel's character assassination right there and I don't think I could really ever have the possibility of liking her if she did that.

haha I know and I was one of the people who was really adamant that the writers wouldn't be dumb enough to do that. But now I'm not so sure lol. If she actually does that I will hop aboard the Laurel-hate train :P That would  be ridiculous. 

Edited December 14, 2014 by ban1o

[apinknightmare]

haha I know and I was one of the people who was really adamant that the writers wouldn't be dumb enough to that. But now I'm not so sure lol. If she actually does that I will hop aboard the Laurel-hate train :P That would  be ridiculous. 

 

I think it's definitely a possibility. Because I believe the point of it would be to show us how far Laurel would go to protect the people she loves, whereas I would believe they were showing me how far she'd go to be a completely terrible person, haha.

 

Either way, I bet she and Quentin have a run-in while she's out vigilante-ing. He'll probably find out about Sara sooner rather than later, at least I hope he does, because Jesus.

[blixie]

I think it's obvious Guggenheim et al don't think this making Laurel look bad, we're supposed to find her reasons understandable if not justifiable, and be empathizing with her turmoil. Which again if Quentin was in some kind of acute medical situation when Sara croaked? Fine. Not a chronic heart condition. Not. Nope. Never. Suck it up sweetheart.

[quarks]

I can understand the enthusiasm for Laurel becoming the Black Canary, on two levels:

 

1. It offers the hope that Laurel will finally be doing something useful on screen instead of getting kidnapped or sidelined or off in her own drinking plot. I can applaud that.  I can, however, only say "hope," because unfortunately, so far Laurel going into the field hasn't gone well: I mean, she actually got kidnapped again in "Guilty."  But l at least can hope that might end once she's suited up.  

 

2. It puts another woman in the field. It was one thing when it was just Oliver, or Oliver and Diggle. Now that it's Oliver, Diggle, and Roy, the gender balance feels a bit unequal.  Add in that so far, Sara's been the only woman superhero on both shows, and half of the potentials are also men (Arrow, Flash, Firestorm, Sara Canary as the established superheroes; Arsenal, Atom, Vibe, Laurel Canary, Katana and Killer Frost as the potentials), and yeah, I can see the enthusiasm. Especially since so far there's been no indication that Katana will appear in the present day storyline or that Caitlin is going to gain superpowers any time soon.

Edited December 15, 2014 by quarks

[ban1o]

2. It puts another woman in the field. It was one thing when it was just Oliver, or Oliver and Diggle. Now that it's Oliver, Diggle, and Roy, the gender balance feels a bit unequal.  Add in that so far, Sara's been the only woman superhero on both shows, and half of the potentials are also men (Arrow, Flash, Firestorm, Sara Canary as the established superheroes; Arsenal, Atom, Vibe, Laurel Canary, Katana and Killer Frost as the potentials), and yeah, I can see the enthusiasm. Especially since so far there's been no indication that Katana will appear in the present day storyline or that Caitlin is going to gain superpowers any time soon.

You're forgetting Huntress but yeah this is a good point. 

[quarks]

Whoops on Huntress.  I think I forgot her because she's only been in four episodes so far, though that's terrible reasoning on my part since Firestorm has only been in two.  However I also forgot Wildcat, which evens out the gender omissions :)

[statsgirl]

Even Huntress was just a marginal fighter.  Oliver had to give her a crossbow because she couldn't handle a longbow.  Sara, Shado, Nyssa and Katana have been the only real female fighters on the show and sadly two, possibly three of them are dead.

 

I don't think DR knows yet of what actually is going to be in the show.  They've told him Thea gets a big story but he's only got the script for 3x14, 3x15 at most. Often the EPs will say it's a big story but when it appears on screen, it's not really that much in terms of screen-time.

 

And the only justification for the ATOM existance this season would be if someone (maybe Felicity) is infected with the OMEGA virus and Palmer fight it on minature level. But that would actually mean him being literally inside her body, which is... just wrong.

 

And sounds very kinky.

 

I said it a couple months back and I'll say it again. I'm betting the big season finale will be Oliver hanging up his quiver and walking away from being the Arrow, embracing being Oliver Queen full time.  It makes even more sense since then they get to prop up Laurel in the hero department and gradually over the season Oliver can learn that he is needed as both Arrow and Oliver and can find that middle ground.  I now suspect Ray will be around to some extent next season even if it's just mentions to keep the idea of there being plenty of protection for his city already. 

While it makes logical sense, the problem is that it leaves the season finale as Oliver hanging up his bow, leaving the others to fight for Staling City and I don't know about anyone else but a show based on Laurel Canary, Arsenal and the Atom holds zero interest for me.  I doubt I would be back in  the fall. 

 

My impression was that the "at least 3 legitimate heroes" protecting or saving Starling City was about Diggle/Felicity/Roy. For one thing I don't see an actor being that enthusiastic about a storyline that makes his character irrelevant simply because he's not in a costume. He also talks about the back half building towards Starling City being able to live outside of Oliver Queen.

I can't listen to the tape now but did he say 'hero' or 'superhero'?  I seem to remember it was the latter and while a hero doesn't have to have a costume, I think a superhero on this show does.

 

I find it odd that they seem so intent on not giving Diggle, Felicity and Roy their time in the sun, while Oliver's not around. Oh sure, it's now apparently the Roy Trilogy (probably to be renamed the Diggle Trilogy before Christmas. Then finally the Felicity Trilogy, when they're really desperate), but they've already hinted at throwing Laurel in there, and maybe 50 Shades too. Probably plenty of Merlyn and who knows, maybe Thea might even get a few scenes.

The impression I got is that 3x10 will be about the Team trying to cope without Oliver, which would mean a substantial amount of Felicity and Diggle too because MG has been tweeting spoilers of 'epic' Felicity, Felicity/Diggle scenes and Felicity/Malcolm.  We have no Felicity or Diggle spoilers for 3x11 and beyond, so it sounds like those will be Laurel/Roy/Ray heavy.  Sin is in 3x12, probably mostly with Laurel and Roy, Count Vertigo in 3x13, and Slade and Tommy in 3x14.

[ban1o]

 

The impression I got is that 3x10 will be about the Team trying to cope without Oliver, which would mean a substantial amount of Felicity and Diggle too because MG has been tweeting spoilers of 'epic' Felicity, Felicity/Diggle scenes and Felicity/Malcolm.  We have no Felicity or Diggle spoilers for 3x11 and beyond, so it sounds like those will be Laurel/Roy/Ray heavy.  Sin is in 3x12, probably mostly with Laurel and Roy, Count Vertigo in 3x13, and Slade and Tommy in 3x14.

Didn't Guggenheim say we'll have to wait a while for Felicity/Malcolm scenes. That's what I thought. Or am I imaging things? 

Edited December 15, 2014 by ban1o

[SonofaBiscuit]

I find that I have enough evidence to convince me that Laurel is not currently a well-liked character.  I remember people losing their shit about the season three poster, removing Laurel completely or placing lampposts and other objects in front of her.  I remember her being on multiple "worst character" lists and winning the least favorite character in that greenarrowtv poll.  And if that's not enough, then we basically have the EPs confirming my thoughts by always referring to "fans of KC/fans of Laurel," and walking back their statement that 10-12 is a Laurel trilogy by saying, "Oh, I don't know where people ever got that idea.  No, it's a Roy trilogy."  Plus I find it peculiar that it seems like the network tries their best to promote actual Laurel-heavy episodes as anything but.  I think we were arguing over "Guilty" because the write-up about that episode made it seem Laurel/Ted focused, but the promo made it seem like a Roy episode.  So yeah, I think that a lot of people don't like Laurel, and I think that the EPs realize this. 

 

Personally, I don't think that the BC arc is going to gain Laurel any new fans.  Guggenheim has already basically told us that it's going to be an epic fail, and Laurel is going to get the crap beat out of her.  And I think it's very possible that Laurel will be wearing the BC costume to trick her father.  So, she's probably not going to win over those who already hate her, and the EPs might even succeed in turning some of her fans against her.

Edited December 15, 2014 by SonofaBiscuit

[Morrigan2575]

I can't listen to the tape now but did he say 'hero' or 'superhero'? I seem to remember it was the latter and while a hero doesn't have to have a costume, I think a superhero on this show does.

He says, "By the end of the season there will be at least 3 legitimate heroes that can protect Starling City besides Oliver Queen."

He then goes on to say

"They're really building it up that the city can live outside of Oliver Queen, that's a big part of the second season...second part of the season"

If this show is trying to say that neither Diggle nor Felicity are actually heroes because they don't wear costumes but Laurel, Roy and Ray are simple because they like to dress up, I would have a problem with that.

I would also find it odd that David Ramsey would sound enthusiastic about a storyline that clearly limits his character but goes on to limit his role and almost makes him unnecessary.

But who knows maybe the moral is the only important people are the one's that play dress up. Diggle being in the thick of things doesn't make him a hero since he does it without a mask. Felicity taking a bullet for Sara, being the one to stop Cooper and being the Ace in the Hole against Slade isn't important because she didn't have a costume.

It's quite a sad precedent and certainly something I can't support but I wouldn't be shocked if that's what they're saying. Sad but not shocked.

Edited December 15, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[ban1o]

 

 

Personally, I don't think that the BC arc is going to gain Laurel any new fans.  Guggenheim has already basically told us that it's going to be an epic fail, and Laurel is going to get the crap beat out of her.  And I think it's very possible that Laurel will be wearing the BC costume to trick her father.  So, she's probably not going to win over those who already hate her, and the EPs might even succeed in turning some of her fans against her.

 Your post is probably addressing my post :P.I know a lot of people don't like her but she's does have a lot of fans. Even on twitter people were harassing Guggenheim for saying that episodes 10-12 weren't Laurel episodes lol. 

 

I agree though I don't think Laurel fans and non-Laurel fans want to see her attempt to be a vigilante but get her ass kicked repeatedly and come back with "many bruises". I don't really think the writers know what they are doing with Laurel the and wrote themselves in a corner with her. I just don't think her becoming BC will make the ratings of the show plummet or anything. But I guess we'll wait and see when it comes to ratngs. 

 

And I am really hoping the writers aren't dumb enough to have Laurel trick her father to believe Sara is live. That would just be ridiculous imo. 

Edited December 15, 2014 by ban1o

[catrox14]

I'm not in for watching Canarrow or the Justice League lite. 

 

I want to watch Oliver Queen become the Green Arrow. Every other character revolves around Oliver. It bugs me to have Oliver go missing for more than one episode.

Edited December 15, 2014 by catrox14

[statsgirl]

But who knows maybe the moral is the only important people are the one's that play dress up. Diggle being in the thick of things doesn't make him a hero since he does it without a mask. Felicity taking a bullet for Sara, being the one to stop Cooper and being the Ace in the Hole against Slade isn't important because she didn't have a costume.

One of the problems with this show is that they say something, and do something else.  Diggle and Felicity are far more true heroes than Roy, Ray or Laurel at this point.  And it's interesting that when reviewers talk about the show, they say that Diggle and Felicity are heroes even though they don't wear a mask.

 

But the EPs also seem obsessed with the names and the costumes and the comic book connections. I hope you're right and that Diggle is included. But if he were, wouldn't that have factored in to Oliver's decisions by now.  Realistically there is no way Laurel, Ray or Thea, or even Roy can match much less exceed Diggle as someone who can protect the city but I'm really expecting Diggle not to be included in those three heroes, especially since he's got Sara to take care of now.

.  

I agree though I don't think Laurel fans and non-Laurel fans want to see her attempt to be a vigilante but get her ass kicked repeatedly and come back with "many bruises". I don't really think the writers know what they are doing with Laurel the and wrote themselves in a corner with her. I just don't think her becoming BC will make the ratings of the show plummet or anything. But I guess we'll wait and see when it comes to ratngs. 

 

And I am really hoping the writers aren't dumb enough to have Laurel trick her father to believe Sara is live. That would just be ridiculous imo. 

 

I think these episodes are going to be a litmus test on whether they can write these characters as decent alternatives to Oliver/Arrow, and whether the actors themselves can carry it through.  So far, the writing has completely messed up any potential to make Laurel a good Black Canary and lampshading it by saying that she gets beaten up when she first goes out in the field isn't making it any better.  They've figured out what to do with Colton Haynes this season by limiting his dialogue and giving him snark but he's way far from being able to even partially carry the show.

 

Ironically, the best options they have right now in terms of superheroes are Ray and his ATOM suit and Thea, who isn't even on track to become Speedy, but neither is anywhere near as compelling as Stephen Amell and the original Team Arrow.  Even without a costume, Diggle and Felicity are far more watchable in terms of vigilante-ism than any of Laurel, Roy, or Ray.  I haven't a clue how they are going to pull this one off and keep the audience. 

Edited December 15, 2014 by statsgirl

[TwistedandBored]

DR something about if he, JB, SA, and CH are in The Foundry nothing would be getting done cause they would be cracking up. Does that mean there is a scene between Roy, Diggle, Malcolm, and Oliver coming up? I hope so. I would love to see one. It also looked like Diggle and Malcolm might be interacting a lot more than usual which I am really excited for. 

[Orion]

See I'm leaning more toward the heroes being Roy, Diggle and Felicity not just because the others are not appealing to me in the least but because if the conclusion of this season is that Oliver can only be Oliver and the Arrow by turning over the protection of Starling to other "heroes" then this seasons arc would be a failure.

 

The question the writers presented was can Oliver be both and the answer would be no he can't. He would still be choosing one side of himself over the other and I don't see that being his conclusion. With all the problems I have had with the writers of this show they do hit their marks in season finales. They answered the Season 2 question of whether Oliver was a killer or a hero in the finale by having Oliver not kill Slade.  They showed him struggle but ultimately take him down by not killing, anything else would have made that whole arc a failure.

 

I see it the same way this season, if Oliver can't find a way to the Arrow and Oliver, to hold on to his humanity while protecting his city the season story would fail and the writers aren't going to let that happen. Hanging up his hood and handing over the keys to the city to Laurel, Ray and Roy while going and living a life Felicity is not a successful outcome for him. To me a successful conclusion is to address what he told Diggle in the premiere.  He told Diggle that he didn't have a choice, that this was Oliver's crusade and in the finale the completion of the circle would be that it is our crusade and we are in this together.  Oliver can be the friend, brother, lover to the people most important to him while also protecting the city. 

 

But we'll see. 

[ban1o]

DR something about if he, JB, SA, and CH are in The Foundry nothing would be getting done cause they would be cracking up. Does that mean there is a scene between Roy, Diggle, Malcolm, and Oliver coming up? I hope so. I would love to see one. It also looked like Diggle and Malcolm might be interacting a lot more than usual which I am really excited for. 

Good Catch! I didn't catch that (but I skipped some stuff in the video) Do you remember what time that was in the video? Was he speaking more hypothetically as if the 4 of them like to joke around a lot and would never get anything done if they filmed a scene together, or as if they had actually shot a scene like that? Anyway Malcolm in the foundry is interesting. Does that mean and Oliver/Malcolm team up is coming?  

Edited December 15, 2014 by ban1o

[BkWurm1]

Diggle and Felicity are stuck with the hero support label. They make it possible for the "hero" to get anything done and survive while doing it but they don't get the credit for any of the saves but for the most part I'm ok with that because Oliver at one point was clear that he knew what they did was only successful because they were a team, that they were partners in the fight.  It takes all of them to be Arrow.

 

But outside of the Arrow Cave nobody gives them any credit.    

[Carrie Ann]

See I'm leaning more toward the heroes being Roy, Diggle and Felicity not just because the others are not appealing to me in the least but because if the conclusion of this season is that Oliver can only be Oliver and the Arrow by turning over the protection of Starling to other "heroes" then this seasons arc would be a failure.

 

The question the writers presented was can Oliver be both and the answer would be no he can't. He would still be choosing one side of himself over the other and I don't see that being his conclusion. With all the problems I have had with the writers of this show they do hit their marks in season finales. They answered the Season 2 question of whether Oliver was a killer or a hero in the finale by having Oliver not kill Slade.  They showed him struggle but ultimately take him down by not killing, anything else would have made that whole arc a failure.

 

I see it the same way this season, if Oliver can't find a way to the Arrow and Oliver, to hold on to his humanity while protecting his city the season story would fail and the writers aren't going to let that happen. Hanging up his hood and handing over the keys to the city to Laurel, Ray and Roy while going and living a life Felicity is not a successful outcome for him. To me a successful conclusion is to address what he told Diggle in the premiere.  He told Diggle that he didn't have a choice, that this was Oliver's crusade and in the finale the completion of the circle would be that it is our crusade and we are in this together.  Oliver can be the friend, brother, lover to the people most important to him while also protecting the city. 

 

But we'll see. 

 

Well, clearly the answer to Oliver's question is: Yes, you can be both. That's obviously where we're heading, so, yes, I don't think there's any way the season will end with Oliver hanging up the hood. But I don't think the three other heroes refers to Dig and Felicity. I think it refers to some combination of Ray, Laurel, Roy, and Thea. (My preference would be that at some point, post-finale, one or two of those characters would take their talents to some other city, but we'll see.)

 

But having these people step up by the end of the season doesn't mean that Oliver would just hang it up and let them take over. But I think it will make him realize that he can take the night off sometimes. That he has other people to call if he's getting in over his head. And I think that little bit of flexibility will be enough to allow him the freedom to be Oliver Queen and The Arrow, and will make him realize that saving Starling is not "his" crusade. A whole bunch of people are invested in that crusade.

[BkWurm1]

I see it the same way this season, if Oliver can't find a way to the Arrow and Oliver, to hold on to his humanity while protecting his city the season story would fail and the writers aren't going to let that happen. Hanging up his hood and handing over the keys to the city to Laurel, Ray and Roy while going and living a life Felicity is not a successful outcome for him.

 

I agree that it's not a successful outcome but that leaves next season to learn and get it right and more than a successful outcome, I think the writers are looking for an interesting outcome, one that comes with new avenues to explore. 

[TwistedandBored]

Good Catch! I didn't catch that (but I skipped some stuff in the video) Do you remember what time that was in the video? Was he speaking more hypothetically as if the 4 of them like to joke around a lot and would never get anything done if they filmed a scene together, or as if they had actually shot a scene like that? Anyway Malcolm in the foundry is interesting. Does that mean and Oliver/Malcolm team up is coming?  

 

It starts around 20:48 and picks up again at 25:18. I got the hint it was more recent scenes they did with each other. He said "when" not "if" he, CH, JB, and SA are in The Foundry. It is what made me pay attention to it and think they might have scenes coming up. 

[statsgirl]

I like Orion's idea that it could be Diggle, Roy and Felicity, because it gives the writers a way out if one or all of  LaurelCanary, Arsenal and ATOM are fails..

[chaos is welcome]

See I'm leaning more toward the heroes being Roy, Diggle and Felicity not just because the others are not appealing to me in the least but because if the conclusion of this season is that Oliver can only be Oliver and the Arrow by turning over the protection of Starling to other "heroes" then this seasons arc would be a failure.

 

The question the writers presented was can Oliver be both and the answer would be no he can't. He would still be choosing one side of himself over the other and I don't see that being his conclusion. With all the problems I have had with the writers of this show they do hit their marks in season finales. They answered the Season 2 question of whether Oliver was a killer or a hero in the finale by having Oliver not kill Slade.  They showed him struggle but ultimately take him down by not killing, anything else would have made that whole arc a failure.

 

I see it the same way this season, if Oliver can't find a way to the Arrow and Oliver, to hold on to his humanity while protecting his city the season story would fail and the writers aren't going to let that happen. Hanging up his hood and handing over the keys to the city to Laurel, Ray and Roy while going and living a life Felicity is not a successful outcome for him. To me a successful conclusion is to address what he told Diggle in the premiere.  He told Diggle that he didn't have a choice, that this was Oliver's crusade and in the finale the completion of the circle would be that it is our crusade and we are in this together.  Oliver can be the friend, brother, lover to the people most important to him while also protecting the city. 

 

But we'll see.

I agree with this. However, there have now been several instances alluding to Oliver hanging up the hood. This one from dr, am done from stehen from nycc:

"Well, we have the crossover which opens up a plethora of possibilities. But the fact that there are so many superheros populating SC and CC is going to be an important theme and will be very important for the ultimate resolution for Oliver at the end of Season 3 … I’VE SAID TOO MUCH."

Maybe he will realize he can take time off and have a life without hanging up the hood....this would absolutely make more sense. But I could see them going oh, well you can still be Oliver Queen and saving the "can you be both" for next season. Because apparently they have a hard time with plot.

[BumpSetSpike]

 

Well, clearly the answer to Oliver's question is: Yes, you can be both. That's obviously where we're heading, so, yes, I don't think there's any way the season will end with Oliver hanging up the hood.

I agree completely - the season is going to end with Oliver finding a BALANCE between being Arrow and Oliver.  Only Masao said he could only be one name, and the theme is "Identity."   Oliver realizes that once he finds a balance between the two, he has found his identity.

[ban1o]

I like Orion's idea that it could be Diggle, Roy and Felicity, because it gives the writers a way out if one or all of  LaurelCanary, Arsenal and ATOM are fails..

Wait..isn't Roy already Arsenal? :/ 

[statsgirl]

Wait..isn't Roy already Arsenal? :/ 

I meant Roy/Arsenal as a lead, in his big 3 episode arc.  He works really well this season as a sidekick but if Oliver is going to hand over part of protecting the city to him, he's got to be believable as a leading player, and I don't think CH is there right now..

[apinknightmare]

The heroes are going to be people who regularly go out in the field-I think they're going to be necessary for Oliver to be able to find his balance, knowing he can take some time off and he doesn't have to do it all alone. So whoever they wind up being, I think we can count Felicity out as one of them.

Edited December 15, 2014 by apinknightmare

[ban1o]

I meant Roy/Arsenal as a lead, in his big 3 episode arc.  He works really well this season as a sidekick but if Oliver is going to hand over part of protecting the city to him, he's got to be believable as a leading player, and I don't think CH is there right now..

oh ok I kinda of get what you're saying. You're talking about the whole "3 heroes" thing as like individual heroes. But in that case do you guys mean that Diggle will be individually protecting the city and Felicity will be individually protecting the city in their own way? Because Felicity doesn't really go out in the field. 

Edited December 15, 2014 by ban1o

[chaos is welcome]

I meant Roy/Arsenal as a lead, in his big 3 episode arc. He works really well this season as a sidekick but if Oliver is going to hand over part of protecting the city to him, he's got to be believable as a leading player, and I don't think CH is there right now..

That's not really true though, it only has to be believable they can handle the day to day drama without Oliver worrying they will get killed via stupidity (Roy May not be there yet but is closer than anyone else). I assume these three heros will carry us through hiatus, and then things will pull them away, or some Very Bad Thing will happen in premiere to bring Oliver front and center again.

I have a max of three regular recurring people in costume. More than that and show is overcrowded

Edited December 15, 2014 by chaos is welcome

[ban1o]

If you just mean "heroes" in a general way then yeah Diggle and Felicity work. but I guess we don't really know what DR meant when he said "heroes"

Edited December 15, 2014 by ban1o

[statsgirl]

I think the three heroes need to be leaders who can make the decisions necessary so that Oliver can hand over some of the responsibility for protecting the city.  right now I don't see either Roy or Thea in that role.  Back in The Calm, when Count Vertigo was going to blow up the arena, it was Felicity telling him what to do rather than Roy knowing it, or in Guilty Oliver was telling him to watch the roof when he was thinking he'd take one of the sides.  But mostly I think of it in terms of CH's acting rather than Arsenal's abilities but we'll see what he can do in 10 - 12.

 

 

The heroes are going to be people who regularly go out in the field-I think they're going to be necessary for Oliver to be able to find his balance, knowing he can take some time off and he doesn't have to do it all alone. So whoever they wind up being, I think we can count Felicity out as one of them.

That pretty much means we have no choice but to include Laurel in there because I doubt Brandon Routh is going to stick around for another season of being supporting to Stephen Amell and Thea won't be up to it yet, if she ever does become Speedy.

 

It feels like it's another example of forcing us to accept KC as the Black Canary, just as killing Sara dead was, we accept her because there is no alternative.  One of this show's strengths has been to take what is good, go with it, and leave the rest, but it really feels like not matter how bad it may be, they are determined to go with Laurel as Black Canary.  Everything else is optional.

 

I assume these three heros will carry us through hiatus, and then things will pull them away, or some Very Bad Thing will happen in premiere to bring Oliver front and center again.

It still leaves the show with the problem of bringing people back for the new season.

 

For the summer between seasons 2 and 3, there was the pull of seeing Happy Oliver and how he handles his new acceptance of not-killing and did he mean the ILU or didn't he?    The mid-season cliff hanger means we tune in to see if Oliver survived or not.  But if they end season 3 with Oliver hanging up his bow and handing the city over to Arsenal, Black Canary and ?, what's the draw to make us tune in for season 4?

Edited December 15, 2014 by statsgirl

[Genki]

It still leaves the show with the problem of bringing people back for the new season.

 

For the summer between seasons 2 and 3, there was the pull of seeing Happy Oliver and how he handles his new acceptance of not-killing and did he mean the ILU or didn't he?    The mid-season cliff hanger means we tune in to see if Oliver survived or not.  But if they end season 3 with Oliver hanging up his bow and handing the city over to Arsenal, Black Canary and ?, what's the draw to make us tune in for season 4?

 

I definitely won't be buying into the Hiatus PR between S3 & S4, fool me once.....

[Ariah]

I was kind of hoping - since the finales tend to have elements from the mid-season fnales and premieres rehearsed - that the finale will involve Oliver actually killing Ra's with a sword and Nyssa taking over the LoA.

 

But I'm not that sure of that anymore. I'm not sure how the 3 other heores fit the bill. I can agree on Arsenal if he ups his game, but I can't - yet - get around the ATOM <lame power, lame power...> and let me not start on the [black] Canary Mark 2.0. My only hope is for Diggle to "get something" (per DR's interview) and Felicity to become the Watchtower / Oracle proxy. Maybe Barry vists in the finale?...

[Hipkarma]

At this point, I think the only things they're shrinking about this ATOM is the size of his tech. Perhaps the shrinking Ray himself won't occur until a Flash crossover. 

 

Personally, I noted that DR said heroes and not superheroes so to me, that means Diggle and Felicity can still be considered heroes and in their own ways are more fully formed than Roy and certainly more so than Ray or Laurel. I discount Ted simply because he is so far only back for one further episode. 

 

If there is one thing that MG has been trying to reinforce as he moves to down play the 3.10-3.12 arc, it is that a mask and costume do not necessarily a superhero make. 

 

I'll be on here and reading reviews about it as it unfolds. I will not be watching nor contributing any promotion or support to this arc. 

Edited December 15, 2014 by Hipkarma

[dtissagirl]

I thought David meant costumed heroes, if only because it was an answer to a question about the Atom suiting up. And it does line up with what Amell said at NYCC, that was quoted upthread. David basically gave the same answer: more heroes by the end of the season. Which would free up some of Oliver's burden so he can have a more balanced life.

 

It ties with the mid-season finale. The way they set up Oliver's death has a lot to do with the identity theme. He tells Felicity he doesn't know if he's a killer anymore [the Arrow is the killer], and the 2 things he knows is he loves Thea and Felicity [both of whom represent Oliver's ties to his humanity].

 

I think they might be setting it up as it was the Arrow who died, and Oliver's last thoughts of his family and Felicity represent the things he's gonna have to embrace as Oliver Queen when he comes back. Getting his company back to honor his parents' memory, saving Thea from Malcolm, and deciding he can have a relationship with Felicity.

 

But to do any of that he needs help with the mission, hence hero-ing other folks. I might not like the people they're hero-ing, but it makes sense as a way to advance Oliver's story.

 

Pretty sure they won't deal with Oliver's path until later in the season, leading up to the finale, but it seems to me that the set up is right there.

Edited December 15, 2014 by dancingnancy

[Kordi]

What do you guys think is Ra's overall plan this season? Jen (jbuffyangel) thinks that he will make Oliver Queen form part of the LOA:

 

Joining LOA would bring on the confrontation of identity between Oliver & Ra’s Al Ghul I’ve been hoping for. One of my theories is that Ra’s Al Ghul actually admires Oliver Queen. He just believes he’d be more effective if he gave up his identity as Oliver Queen and only focused on life as The Arrow. He would be more effective with his cause if he became a symbol. That’s what Ra’s Al Ghul did. The real danger of Ra’s Al Ghul is that he has a point! Evil is seductive when presented as the ends justifying the means. My theory is Oliver is in danger of losing his soul. By joining the LOA, Ra’s Al Ghul can have an active relationship with Oliver & influence his thinking in a way that he wouldn’t be able to if he was just your regular bad guy. By joining the LOA, leaving behind Oliver Queen and the people that connect him to his humanity (His team, his sister, Felicity)…Oliver is very much in danger of losing his soul. This is where Oliver’s journey needs to go so he actively begins FIGHTING for his life as Oliver Queen. He’s taken baby steps, but there needs to be a cataclysmic event that hastens his progress. LOA & Ra’s Al Ghul could be such an event.

 

quoted from: http://jbuffyangel.tumblr.com/post/102595581603/what-do-you-think-about-the-theory-that-oliver

 

I like Jen's idea of Ra's trying to pull Oliver over to "the dark side" (as Darth Vader intended to do with Luke Skywalker :-): He might want to convince him to give up his humanity/ his Oliver Queen identity until he is exclusively "The Arrow".

 

But unlike Jen, I don't think that Oliver is going to join the LOA. Rather, I suppose that Ra's will give order to save Oliver (by using a Lazarus Pit or some magical herbs or whatever) and to nurse him back to life. We might see short sequences of this during the episodes 3x10 - 3x12. During this process Ra's could have several conversations with Oliver where he stimulates him into "killing off" the "human" or "private" part of his identity. Maybe Ra's points out that by being 100% "The Arrow" Oliver could dedicate himself entirely and more efficiently to some "greater good" ("replacing evil by death"?).

 

Then (at the end of 3x12?) Oliver reappears in Starling City. His friends welcome him, everybody is happy,... until they notice that Oliver has changed. Maybe he is not like S1-Oliver, the "hood"/ "vigilante"/ "killer", but he pushes everybody away - even more than he used to do at the beginning of S3. He focusses entirely on him being "The Arrow", and maybe it's in this context that Felicity tells him: "I don't want to be a woman you love", because she can't bear his attitude and behavior anymore.

 

Little by little, it is revealed (at least to the audience) that Oliver has fallen under the influence of Ra's who keeps manipulating him. And during the last part of S3 we see how Oliver overcomes the temptation Ra's has lead him into.

[apinknightmare]

Then (at the end of 3x12?) Oliver reappears in Starling City. His friends welcome him, everybody is happy,... until they notice that Oliver has changed. Maybe he is not like S1-Oliver, the "hood"/ "vigilante"/ "killer", but he pushes everybody away - even more than he used to do at the beginning of S3. He focusses entirely on him being "The Arrow", and maybe it's in this context that Felicity tells him: "I don't want to be a woman you love", because she can't bear his attitude and behavior anymore.

 

Yeah, I think he's going to come back different. Not hugely changed, as in Evil! Oliver, but I think this is where we're going to get down to the Oliver Queen vs. Arrow part of the story. He sort of half-assed being one or the other in the beginning of the season, and I think Ra's is going to get to him and make him try harder. I think that "I don't want to be a woman you love" is going to be like, "I don't want to be a woman you love, because I don't even know this Oliver you've become/you're becoming" kind of thing. I think that might be the impetus to him opening his eyes and maybe seeing that things aren't going to a good place, and he keeps losing more and more pieces of Oliver Queen - and he's going to decide that he wants to keep them.

 

I could be wrong, since it would make sense that coming through an experience like that and having his very last thought be of Felicity would make him harbor some regret that that one kiss was all they ever had, but...who knows with this show.

[SonofaBiscuit]

I think that if Oliver comes back and pushes people away because he's determined to be only the Arrow, I will chuck my TV out the window.  FFS, how many times can they keep going back to that one?  You get a second chance at life, and instead of embracing that, taking advantage of every single moment you have, and being happy, you'd rather continue to be miserable and wallow in your manpain.  No.  Just no.

 

I think that the EPs must be hoping that episodes 10-13 go well because the plan for the rest of their season seems to hinge on people accepting other heroes besides The Arrow.  I mean, I guess they have some flexibility to change which heroes will be helping Arrow out if the audience reacts badly to certain ones.  Personally, I'm not sure how this works because Oliver is a control freak, and people with that sort of personality trait don't just wake up one day and decide to relinquish control.  So I have a hard time imagining Oliver chilling at home with Felicity while Laurel is out saving the city (hahahaha). 

 

 

[dtissagirl]

Not that I trust this show to apply Earth logic to anything, but I really don't see what would be the point of Oliver losing his humanity again. They just spent the entire crossover making Barry point out to Oliver that his humanity is what makes him a hero, and an inspiration, but then, what? Oops, the entire motif we set up two episodes ago was for naught, Oliver is really losing his humanity for realsies this time and here comes robot emotionless killer again because the first seven times we tried to teach him this particular lesson, it didn't take?

 

I mean, I'm sure they could do exactly that, I just don't get WHY they would.

Edited December 15, 2014 by dancingnancy

[apinknightmare]

Not that I trust this show to apply Earth logic to anything, but I really don't see what would be the point of Oliver losing his humanity again. They just spent the entire crossover making Barry point out to Oliver that his humanity is what makes him a hero, and an inspiration, but then, what? Oops, the entire motif we set up two episodes ago was for naught, Oliver is really losing his humanity for realsies this time and here comes robot emotionless killer again because the first seven times we tried to teach him this particular lesson, it didn't take?

 

I mean, I'm sure they could do exactly that, I just don't get WHY they would.

 

Well, the EPs did say that he would be trying to figure out how much of his humanity he wanted to get back in the present while he was losing it in the past. So maybe instead of coming back all grrrr killer, he's still struggling with it, although, like I wrote above, I would think he'd be so full of regret about the state of his relationships as he thought of them when he "died" that there would be no question that he'd want to go all in on them. But we're only halfway through the season, and where do they go from there? Or is the rest of the season going to deal with him cleaning up the mess he made in the first half? IDK

[SonofaBiscuit]

The whole point of Oliver "dying" should be that this is the final push he needs to fully embrace his humanity.  He should come back, start fighting to regain his company, fight to free Thea from Malcolm's clutches, and finally jump headfirst into a romantic relationship with Felicity.  But you know, with magical brainwashing herbs and shit, who knows.

[Morrigan2575]

From the DR interview it doesn't sound like Stephen/Oliver is back full time until 313, that only leaves 10 episodes to wrap things up and get Oliver to a resolution.  They also have to deal with LoA, SS (1 or 2 episodes), Malcolm/Thea, Ray becoming ATOM, who the hell knows what with Laurel.  10 episodes isn't that much time to have Oliver go full darkside/Arrow only to swing back to Oliver Queen in 323 or find balance between OQ/Arrow.

[dtissagirl]

I think it would make more sense if Ra's was testing Oliver -- and "dying" was part of it -- because Oliver wants his help in taking down Malcolm, and Ra's was trying to see if Oliver was worth his time or whatever kind of code the LoA has for this kind of thing. They've kinda set up that Malcolm is the thorn in both Ra's and Oliver's side.

 

And that would at least  be not ripping off Batman again completely. Because what jbuffyangel is talking about on Tumblr IS Batman exactly.

Edited December 15, 2014 by dancingnancy

[apinknightmare]

I think it would make more sense if Ra's was testing Oliver -- and "dying" was part of it -- because Oliver wants his help in taking down Malcolm, and Ra's was trying to see if Oliver was worth his time or whatever kind of code the LoA has for this kind of thing. They've kinda set up that Malcolm is the thorn in both Ra's and Oliver's side.

 

And that would at least  be not ripping off Batman again completely. Because what jbuffyangel is talking about on Tumblr IS Batman exactly.

 

Didn't SA say that Malcolm and Oliver would be setting up an uneasy alliance to defeat Ra's? Or maybe one of the EPs said it. I'm pretty sure it was Stephen though, answering some kind of question about "family" with relation to Malcolm and Thea. 

[statsgirl]

I think it was Stephen in terms of Oliver's relationship with Malcolm but I have the vague memory of John Barrowman also saying something about seeing Oliver as part of his dysfunctional family now because there's only Thea left.

 

One of the things they seem to be clear on is that Oliver regains his humanity in the present while moving towards becoming a stone cold killer in the past.  So they've got to keep moving in that direction.

 

 

From the DR interview it doesn't sound like Stephen/Oliver is back full time until 313, that only leaves 10 episodes to wrap things up and get Oliver to a resolution.  They also have to deal with LoA, SS (1 or 2 episodes), Malcolm/Thea, Ray becoming ATOM, who the hell knows what with Laurel.  10 episodes isn't that much time to have Oliver go full darkside/Arrow only to swing back to Oliver Queen in 323 or find balance between OQ/Arrow.

Good point.  Maybe they can sort of deal with Black Canary and Arsenal while Oliver is gone but there's still Thea big arc and whatever they are going to do with Ray. And Slade is coming back, and DR said there is another Suicide Squad episode coming up, and then there's that whole season's Big Bad thing.  There really isn't time to have Oliver swing bad and then human again unless they want him to look like a pendulum.

 

I could have argued for Ra's testing Oliver to see if he was a worthy successor before 309, but with the stabbing and the blood running out of Oliver's mouth, and the death prayer and then booting him off the mountain, that didn't look like testing to me, it looked like Ra's getting rid of a troublesome gnat.

 

I think that the EPs must be hoping that episodes 10-13 go well because the plan for the rest of their season seems to hinge on people accepting other heroes besides The Arrow.  I mean, I guess they have some flexibility to change which heroes will be helping Arrow out if the audience reacts badly to certain ones.  Personally, I'm not sure how this works because Oliver is a control freak, and people with that sort of personality trait don't just wake up one day and decide to relinquish control.  So I have a hard time imagining Oliver chilling at home with Felicity while Laurel is out saving the city (hahahaha). 

 

I've got a comment in this for the Laurel thread which I haven't written up yet but briefly in Adlerian psychology there is a distinction between two types of people who control: those who control for the sake of controlling; and those who control so as not to be controlled themselves.  I see Laurel as the former and Oliver as the latter, someone who learned to control and needs to control so as not to be controlled by others (i.e. those five years, followed by Malcolm and Slade in Starling City).  So if Oliver believed that these others heroes could really protect Starling City when he wasn't around, I can see him willing to take time off.

Edited December 15, 2014 by statsgirl

[SonofaBiscuit]

Well, if Oliver is going to accept help from other superheroes, he can just send BC Laurel to defeat Ra's.  "Who's next?  Oh, it looks like you're up Laurel.  Good luck.  Felicity and I are going out to dinner.  Talk to you after to see how things went."

Edited December 15, 2014 by SonofaBiscuit

[dtissagirl]

Didn't SA say that Malcolm and Oliver would be setting up an uneasy alliance to defeat Ra's? Or maybe one of the EPs said it. I'm pretty sure it was Stephen though, answering some kind of question about "family" with relation to Malcolm and Thea. 

 

I thought this was it -- but instead of an alliance, it was Malcolm manipulating Oliver into defeating Ra's to protect Thea. They were on the same side of the issue, except Malcolm was calling the shots, and not, you know, Oliver and him joining forces on equal ground.

Edited December 15, 2014 by dancingnancy

[calliope1975]

Will the EPs have time to course correct if the Buckle Canary/No we mean Roy/look at all our superheroes arc tanks? I don't truly believe it will tank, but if the audience doesn't react favorably, what episodes will they be writing when 10 - 13 airs?