AyChihuahua February 7, 2017 Share February 7, 2017 2 minutes ago, Belinea said: What does that even mean? That they shouldn't have split or that they shouldn't have done it in the way they did? Because at this point in the season it feels as though the forget that they were dating to begin with at times. So I can't imagine him regretting how they broke up. Personally I think he's always meant the engagement, etc. If they hadn't truly gone all-in with them everything would have been better, IMO. For me, my main BMD rage points are that he proposed while lying and she'd be the kid's stepmother. If they weren't engaged, several of my main rage points would at least be lessened. I'd also bet they somewhat regret the walking away scene, bc they got pretty mercilessly mocked for that. 5 Link to comment
Midnight Lullaby February 7, 2017 Share February 7, 2017 4 minutes ago, Belinea said: What does that even mean? That they shouldn't have split or that they shouldn't have done it in the way they did? Because at this point in the season it feels as though the forget that they were dating to begin with at times. So I can't imagine him regretting how they broke up. He said something similar a while ago..that they decided what was going to happen in terms of plot and in which episode some things had to happen and limiting themselves like that was a mistake. So I'm guessing he is saying the timing of the whole thing didn't feel natural because it was dictated by the plot. Not that what they wrote and not just the timing wasn't stupid and awful though but that's my opinion not his, LOL Link to comment
apinknightmare February 7, 2017 Share February 7, 2017 "The way we dismounted off of the Oliver/Felicity relationship." What are words, Marc? How do they work? What an awful phrase, haha. 15 Link to comment
Trisha February 7, 2017 Share February 7, 2017 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Cleanqueen said: Guggie saying how he liked season 4 but the two things he didn't like were 1)how they dismounted the Oliver and Felicity relationship-That felt very rushed. 2) The flashbacks. He's said this before and I never understand it. Yes, it's good he's realizing the progression of their relationship was really rushed but why did they do that in the first place? There was that crazy fast drive off into the sunset and then the next episode we see him with an engagement ring. It's not like the show was in any danger of being cancelled after last season and they needed to rush to the endgame, so I never understood why they did such a good slow burn and then fast-paced the relationship and breakup. That's what I'd love him to explain/justify. Edited February 7, 2017 by Trisha 6 Link to comment
Belinea February 7, 2017 Share February 7, 2017 (edited) Considering I' am not sure they are going to go back to it I find his words (as @apinknightmare already said "What even are words?") just super dumb/confusing/misleading/irritating/random ... Take your pick Basically they just stopped writing the storyline and had no other story points for that. Edited February 7, 2017 by Belinea Link to comment
insomniadreams88 February 7, 2017 Share February 7, 2017 I feel like it's because they regret what they did to them in S4 that they're just ignoring that any of S4 happened. What do you mean Oliver called Felicity his "always"? What do you mean that it looked like they were going to have a great relationship until Oliver agreed to that ridiculous ultimatum? What do you mean it looks like Oliver doesn't care about Felicity if they're not in a relationship? We must have imagined most of the first four seasons of the show in general with what we're getting in S5. 9 Link to comment
Belinea February 7, 2017 Share February 7, 2017 1 minute ago, insomniadreams88 said: We must have imagined most of the first four seasons of the show in general with what we're getting in S5. Isn't it great how our minds work in combination because everyone came up with the same thing... 1 Link to comment
Cleanqueen February 7, 2017 Share February 7, 2017 I think the plan was to always break them up but I don't think they liked how it was executed. The BMD didn't feel organic and wasnt the perfect choice to cause a break up for them. 4 Link to comment
DrSpaceman10 February 7, 2017 Share February 7, 2017 Something about the way MG said that makes me think they don't have any plans (at the moment at least) to revisit Oliver/Felicity's relationship. I could be wrong though, and it could always change as long as EBR's on the show. 2 Link to comment
Mellowyellow February 7, 2017 Share February 7, 2017 @YonkouProdutiona thank you but you're breaking my heart every week!!!!! It is nice to prepare in advance though! Are you able to tell if Felicity is in the episode much this week? Link to comment
EmilyBettFan February 7, 2017 Share February 7, 2017 Funny, they released some scenes early. They usually wait until the day of the episode. Link to comment
Belinea February 7, 2017 Share February 7, 2017 19 minutes ago, DrSpaceman10 said: Something about the way MG said that makes me think they don't have any plans (at the moment at least) to revisit Oliver/Felicity's relationship. Either way, they'd probably never directly say ' We are 100% done with it'.... The fans that still remain would drop the show then altogether and I doubt they plan on alienate people further. String them along, yes, alienate them more, no. 6 Link to comment
AyChihuahua February 7, 2017 Share February 7, 2017 1 minute ago, EmilyBettFan said: Funny, they released some scenes early. They usually wait until the day of the episode. Well, they got a third .6 last week with little competition and there's a new episode of Lethal Weapon this week. Just now, Belinea said: Either way, they'd probably never directly say ' We are 100% done with it'.... The fans that still remain would drop the show then altogether and I doubt they plan on alienate people further. String them along, yes, alienate them more, no. Yeah, IMO they'll tease both O/T and O/F for awhile, regardless of what their plans are. 1 Link to comment
Trisha February 7, 2017 Share February 7, 2017 What @YONKOUPRODUTIONA just posted on Reddit makes me wonder if Susan is investigating more than Lance in this episode: Quote Dumbass Oliver forgets that if he goes to Russia then there's no Green Arrow back home which leaves your identity exposed...not to mention protecting your identity in Russia doesn't go far if they call you Luchnik (The Archer). 1 Link to comment
way2interested February 7, 2017 Share February 7, 2017 It would just be weird to me that they'd choose now to tease instead of having a set plan for Oliver's romantic story for the end of s5. If MG says they were disappointed about how it turned out, I mean, it was their plan pretty much before anyone really ever saw them as a couple? They planted the seeds for the break-up in 408 to follow their sweeps romance paint-by-numbers back when, what, 404 was out? It's kind of admitting that they were just putting them together to break them up and do something else for what? To ultimately set him up with someone else? To see if they can ultimately set him up with someone else but to have a safety net for the future? This is all jumping the gun since I still have no idea when Oliver and Susan will be over, but it's weird to me how you've got them having a pretty set plot plans (whether good or not) for s1-s3 on the romantic front for Oliver's story to an extent, and then have a plan that Oliver and Felicity are going to be together but then break-up in 415 and then have little story progression on that front for the rest of s4 and s5 (not counting Susan because it's "temp" written all over her) to just be playing along with the story to see what fits potentially for s6 I guess? I would think that there's got to be a plan for s5 here somewhere because it would just feel weird to me that they're legitimately just throwing that story to the wall to see what sicks and teasing all of the way. Still betting on some last-minute twist on the romantic front for s5 somewhere near the end, otherwise I guess it will look like they just gave up on really writing on the romantic subplot for Oliver in general. 2 Link to comment
insomniadreams88 February 7, 2017 Share February 7, 2017 Maybe the team will unanimously vote to kick Oliver out due to his stupidity. "Well, now that we have Tinah and her canary cry, do we really need you? Go, be mayor. Have fun. Don't do anything that will lead to our identities being revealed. Thanks!" 11 Link to comment
AyChihuahua February 7, 2017 Share February 7, 2017 (edited) 17 minutes ago, way2interested said: It would just be weird to me that they'd choose now to tease instead of having a set plan for Oliver's romantic story for the end of s5. I agree, but they have stated that they didn't know when they brought Isabel in whether she'd be good or bad, and same with SARA. Who was a pretty major part of S2B's plot. They're idiots. (Also I expect most of it to play out in S6 in a triangle.) 16 minutes ago, YonkouProdutiona said: LOL. Oliver's so dumb. Edited February 7, 2017 by AyChihuahua 1 Link to comment
insomniadreams88 February 7, 2017 Share February 7, 2017 Here's how I'm seeing Oliver's priorities right now, according to promos/photos/interviews/etc.: 1. The episode's plot 2. Being mayor 3. Newbies (WD/Tinah/etc.) bonding 4. Talking about Prometheus 5. Susan? If he remembers she exists? So again, based on episode's plot. .... 98. Thea? Maybe? 99. Commenting that something's going on with Felicity 100. Actually stopping Prometheus 9 Link to comment
jay741982 February 7, 2017 Share February 7, 2017 2 hours ago, Belinea said: Rule Number 1: Oliver never learns. Never! Cause asshole writers refuse to stop having Oliver be a dumbass it's annoying Link to comment
jay741982 February 7, 2017 Share February 7, 2017 2 hours ago, insomniadreams88 said: Um, WM, Diggle is out of jail not "thanks to Adrian Chase," but thanks to Felicity Smoak. Felicity doesn't have a dickk therefore she don't get credit Link to comment
way2interested February 7, 2017 Share February 7, 2017 8 minutes ago, AyChihuahua said: I agree, but they have stated that they didn't know when they brought Isabel in whether she'd be good or bad, and same with SARA. Who was a pretty major part of S2B's plot. They're idiots. (Also I expect most of it to play out in S6 in a triangle.) But even with Isabel and Sara they were following their paint-by-numbers romantic plot. The lunge in 213 was always supposed to happen, except they made it Sara instead of Isabel. One of the female characters was supposed to be evil and they made it Isabel instead of Sara. And even then neither mattered because he was going to have his "I Love You" moment with Felicity in 223 anyway. Even if s6 ends up in a love triangle, that gives a paint-by-numbers plot for next season but then still leaves this season up in the air. Something big at the end could kick it off I suppose but then it would be ultimately be teasing....for the sake to set up next season's teasing. Not saying they can't or won't do it, but having no settlement in the plot (no declarations for Tinah, just teasing) mixed with a rehash of the ending for that plot in s4 (could they get back together?) is really a break in the pattern. 2 Link to comment
Belinea February 7, 2017 Share February 7, 2017 27 minutes ago, way2interested said: Still betting on some last-minute twist on the romantic front for s5 somewhere near the end, otherwise I guess it will look like they just gave up on really writing on the romantic subplot for Oliver in general. Maybe they put the temporary Susan into bigger parts of this season so that people forget about Felicity being his girlfriend then towards the end of the season once they have introduced Tinah they can smoothly move on to that without people complaining that Oliver's last girlfriend was the one he wanted to marry. Also they might wait to see how Tinah is received. 3 Link to comment
statsgirl February 7, 2017 Share February 7, 2017 I want to do an inkblot test on MG and WM. Because this plotting just sounds insane: If they want the non-comics viewers to like Tinah, the way to introduce her into the team, especially in a season where people are complaining that there are too many new characters, is to bring her in slowly and not usurping the place of more established, beloved characters. Instead, not only is she a meta and thus instantly the best fighter on the test, she suddenly knows not only all Oliver's secrets but how he feels about things without him telling her and they're deliberately teasing her as a love interest. they're already having Oliver go off on secret missions with Tina. It's going to thrill the GA/BC fans, and a lot of other people are going to hate it, like the ones who have been around since season 1 and watch for OTA and Thea. If Susan is now Oliver's girlfriend, shouldn't she recuse herself from investigating his city hall? 3 hours ago, YonkouProdutiona said: Quote Prometheus has you so fixated on what's wrong with you, that you've completely stopped seeing what's right. You know, John and Felicity, they'll listen to you Because you have more to offer than just this. Your past is a part of you. There is nothing you can do about that. You can't change it. It doesn't mean it has to be your anchor. Ugh. How in the hell does she know him so well, not to mention his relationships with Diggle and Felicity, in the brief second she's known him? Not to mention, why is she calling Diggle John? It takes years for people to know him well enough to call him John. 1 hour ago, Cleanqueen said: I think the plan was to always break them up but I don't think they liked how it was executed. The BMD didn't feel organic and wasnt the perfect choice to cause a break up for them. Why get them engaged if the plan was to break them up? It made it so much messier and so much worse on Oliver's part. It feels to me like they planned to have them engaged and then the word came down to break them up, just like the word came to have yet another Black Canary. I wonder if Evelyn had worked out in s4 if they would have kept her. 8 Link to comment
AyChihuahua February 7, 2017 Share February 7, 2017 2 minutes ago, way2interested said: But even with Isabel and Sara they were following their paint-by-numbers romantic plot. The lunge in 213 was always supposed to happen, except they made it Sara instead of Isabel. One of the female characters was supposed to be evil and they made it Isabel instead of Sara. And even then neither mattered because he was going to have his "I Love You" moment with Felicity in 223 anyway. Even if s6 ends up in a love triangle, that gives a paint-by-numbers plot for next season but then still leaves this season up in the air. Something big at the end could kick it off I suppose but then it would be ultimately be teasing....for the sake to set up next season's teasing. Not saying they can't or won't do it, but having no settlement in the plot (no declarations for Tinah, just teasing) mixed with a rehash of the ending for that plot in s4 (could they get back together?) is really a break in the pattern. That's pretty much what I expect. No resolution of the romantic subplots this season (except with the reporter), bc the point is to take it into S6. Can't tease O/T in S6 if, say, O/F get married in 523. And for me, everything this season IS a break in the pattern. They didn't even start with him running. It's the season of utter weirdness, so nothing is on or off the table. 6 Link to comment
Sunshine February 7, 2017 Share February 7, 2017 2 hours ago, apinknightmare said: Wait, Wendy called the General Diggle's longtime foe from Season 4 - when was this? 2 hours ago, lemotomato said: Does Wendy even watch the show? I'm guessing he was in the Diggle brothers army flashbacks and we just didn't notice him. Link to comment
insomniadreams88 February 7, 2017 Share February 7, 2017 I'd be really interested in finding out if they were just told they needed to bring in a BC or were also told how to use her (very skilled fighter, romance - or flirting at the least - with Oliver, etc.). I think I'd almost rather see them spin off Felicity, Diggle, Thea and Lance into their own show (and bring along Rory - I refuse to think he's dying - and have Roy show up every so often) than see a S6 that's just a repeat of S5 or with an actual love triangle. 1 Link to comment
apinknightmare February 7, 2017 Share February 7, 2017 Arrow was always fond of its retcons, but this is the first season that actually feels like a standalone, with parts of the show's canon carried forward and "improved upon" or embellished to fit plot beats. Anyone who keeps watching should expect things to not really make sense based on the show's own canon or what was done before. They aren't even really sticking to that anymore. 11 Link to comment
dtissagirl February 7, 2017 Share February 7, 2017 I think the reason they rushed through Oliver/Felicity in S4 was because there was a fear that the CW would cease to exist if the Tribune deal fell through. And then the plan was break up in 415, forgiveness in 420, reunion in 423. Except not only the Tribune deal worked out, but the Netflix deal gave them 3 extra seasons almost guaranteed. Which meant stalling the 'ship. Any other show would do this better than whatever the fuck is going on in S5, but I buy Guggie internalizing that people didn't like ~the dramas~ of S4, and so he's pretending nothing ever happened between O/F in a avoid all drama at all costs way.. because he still has two more seasons to go. 16 Link to comment
tv echo February 7, 2017 Share February 7, 2017 (edited) Back in October, @SmoaknArrow wrote this great post, "Does Arrow Want Me to Watch?"...http://forums.previously.tv/topic/7318-target-practice-poisoned-arrow-the-bitterness-thread/?page=89#comment-2668096 With every batch of new spoilers that come out, I become more convinced that the answer - sadly - is "No" for Felicity/Olicity/OTA fans like me. Perhaps an example of the disheartening nature of this season - I posted this morning in the Golden Arrow thread that Eonline is taking nominations for "TV's Top Couple 2017". Based on their rules, Olicity is still eligible. The nomination deadline is 5pm today, but I have yet to see any mention of it in the few Olicity fan twitter accounts that I've checked. Edited February 7, 2017 by tv echo 2 Link to comment
bijoux February 7, 2017 Share February 7, 2017 WD preps Lance for his interview? That's legitimately the most hilarious thing I've read about this episode. Also, about Susan being called Oliver's girlfriend, does one of them use the term? Because Thea and Felicity started doing it almost 10 episodes ago, no? 1 Link to comment
insomniadreams88 February 7, 2017 Share February 7, 2017 "Old friends at Helix." That's how WM describes Helix in the preview. How are they "old friends" when Felicity didn't know they existed until last week? Because that one hacker knew who Felicity was and about PT? That makes them "old friends"? I'm so confused. 8 Link to comment
bijoux February 7, 2017 Share February 7, 2017 2 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said: "Old friends at Helix." That's how WM describes Helix in the preview. How are they "old friends" when Felicity didn't know they existed until last week? Because that one hacker knew who Felicity was and about PT? That makes them "old friends"? I'm so confused. Maybe she's actually known them since last season, much like Dig has been feuding with the general since then? 5 Link to comment
apinknightmare February 7, 2017 Share February 7, 2017 6 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said: "Old friends at Helix." That's how WM describes Helix in the preview. How are they "old friends" when Felicity didn't know they existed until last week? Because that one hacker knew who Felicity was and about PT? That makes them "old friends"? I'm so confused. A week's worth of knowledge makes you old friends on the show now. Like Tinah giving Oliver life advice like she's known him for years. 10 Link to comment
Belinea February 7, 2017 Share February 7, 2017 Just now, apinknightmare said: Like Tinah giving Oliver life advice like she's known him for years. Still side eyeing that conversation so hard. 2 Link to comment
Morrigan2575 February 7, 2017 Author Share February 7, 2017 (edited) 16 minutes ago, dtissagirl said: I think the reason they rushed through Oliver/Felicity in S4 was because there was a fear that the CW would cease to exist if the Tribune deal fell through. And then the plan was break up in 415, forgiveness in 420, reunion in 423. Except not only the Tribune deal worked out, but the Netflix deal gave them 3 extra seasons almost guaranteed. Which meant stalling the 'ship. Any other show would do this better than whatever the fuck is going on in S5, but I buy Guggie internalizing that people didn't like ~the dramas~ of S4, and so he's pretending nothing ever happened between O/F in a avoid all drama at all costs way.. because he still has two more seasons to go. Thank you! It's always nice to see fans take a step back and look at a shows actions as something from a business perspective. Because ultimately a TV show doesn't just exist in the writers mind but has many different bosses including budget, network, studio, actors, etc. All of which impact (for better or worse) the story. Edited February 7, 2017 by Morrigan2575 8 Link to comment
insomniadreams88 February 7, 2017 Share February 7, 2017 6 minutes ago, bijoux said: Maybe she's actually known them since last season, much like Dig has been feuding with the general since then? Maybe WM mixed up the general and the Shadowspire people? That's the only thing I can think of. Link to comment
Chaser February 7, 2017 Share February 7, 2017 If you detach yourself and look at everything (in-show and out of show) - its kind of hilarious. In a "This is such a HOT MESS" kind of way. 17 Link to comment
statsgirl February 7, 2017 Share February 7, 2017 23 minutes ago, dtissagirl said: Any other show would do this better than whatever the fuck is going on in S5, but I buy Guggie internalizing that people didn't like ~the dramas~ of S4, and so he's pretending nothing ever happened between O/F in a avoid all drama at all costs way.. because he still has two more seasons to go. He may have two more seasons to go but the show is such a mess this year, all he may have left watching are the GA/BC crowd. They did such a good job redeeming Thea from the whiny brat she was in s1, and they're completely squandering it. 3 Link to comment
Chaser February 7, 2017 Share February 7, 2017 I'm perplexed as to why they introduced Thea and Reporter like that, had Thea get so close to Lance and then have Rene get between Reporter and Lance. Why not Thea? 6 Link to comment
Morrigan2575 February 7, 2017 Author Share February 7, 2017 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Chaser said: If you detach yourself and look at everything (in-show and out of show) - its kind of hilarious. In a "This is such a HOT MESS" kind of way. It really is and, a lot of it comes down to being forced to take an actress they didn't want. If they cast Laurel better from the start, there'd be no BC 3.5 or Olicity or OTA. So you take what you can get because Arrow could have been a very different show. BTW make of this what you want, I was told back in September (and I PM'd a few people here about it when I found out) that Willa's role in (at least) 5A was being cutback because of onset antics starting towards the end of S4 filming. The EPs gave her a timeout to get her shit together. I don't think they're looking to write Thea out, I just think they and, Willa have been dealing with some stuff so they've cut back her screen time. If she gets her shit together I expect they'll have something for her in 5B, the final 5 EPs (when MM comes back) or S6. If she doesn't get her shit together, they may decide to part ways. Edited February 7, 2017 by Morrigan2575 11 Link to comment
Belinea February 7, 2017 Share February 7, 2017 6 minutes ago, statsgirl said: all he may have left watching are the GA/BC crowd. How many people are that again according to MG? 1 Link to comment
Chaser February 7, 2017 Share February 7, 2017 1 minute ago, Morrigan2575 said: It really is and, a lot of it comes down to being forced to take an actress they didn't want. If they cast Laurel better from the start, there'd me no BC 3.5 or Olicity or OTA. So you take what you can get. BTW make of this what you want, I was told back in September (and I PM'd a few people here about it when I found out) that Willa's role in (at least) 5A was being cutback because of onset antics starting towards the end of S4 filming. The EPs gave her a timeout to get her shit together. I don't think they're looking to write Thea out, I just think they and, Willa have been dealing with some stuff so they've cut back her screen time. If she gets her shit together I expect they'll have something for her in 5B, the final 5 EPs (when MM comes back) or S6. If she doesn't get her shit together, they may decide to part ways. I'm confident that's why 5x10 was so meta with Felicity punching her in the face. I honestly think you can trace a lot of the shows problems back to LL and KC. 2 Link to comment
insomniadreams88 February 7, 2017 Share February 7, 2017 I wonder what MG is going to say he regrets about S5 next year. Probably something to do with Evelyn (especially since I think that's a problem everyone has and it shouldn't piss off anyone). 1 Link to comment
Starfish35 February 7, 2017 Share February 7, 2017 7 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said: BTW make of this what you want, I was told back in September (and I PM'd a few people here about it when I found out) that Willa's role in (at least) 5A was being cutback because of onset antics starting towards the end of S4 filming. The EPs gave her a timeout to get her shit together. I don't think they're looking to write Thea out, I just think they and, Willa have been dealing with some stuff so they've cut back her screen time. If she gets her shit together I expect they'll have something for her in 5B, the final 5 EPs (when MM comes back) or S6. If she doesn't get her shit together, they may decide to part ways. This does not surprise me at all actually. I just had a feeling something was going on with her and I could not even really have said why. I would hate to lose Thea though, so I hope it gets worked out. 3 Link to comment
way2interested February 7, 2017 Share February 7, 2017 It's actually a shame that no one can say anything about that kind of stuff (not that I can't see why they can't). Finding out stuff like that always gets me more sympathetic and slightly more impressed at the stuff that ends up being the final product (like Castle and Moonlighting with their leads, Michael J. Fox filming Back to the Future at the same time as Family Ties, etc.). Heck, even hearing some of the potential drama behind this whole BC thing gets me more impressed that they were even able to create Sara and kill off Laurel, and I think that they're trying to getting a better hold at keeping the guest stars that they want better than other seasons. It always gets me wondering what stuff is pushing which decisions. Totally willing to crowdfund that tell-all book. 10 Link to comment
dtissagirl February 7, 2017 Share February 7, 2017 (edited) 27 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said: It really is and, a lot of it comes down to being forced to take an actress they didn't want. If they cast Laurel better from the start, there'd be no BC 3.5 or Olicity or OTA. So you take what you can get because Arrow could have been a very different show. It is kinda mindblowing when you realize the reason Oliver/Felicity exists is because they were stuck with Katie Cassidy. I do feel like Arrow has MORE behind the scenes shenanigans going on than any other shows I've followed closely, but all of them are ruled by the business side of it. 34 minutes ago, statsgirl said: He may have two more seasons to go but the show is such a mess this year, all he may have left watching are the GA/BC crowd. Guggie has mentioned in interviews that the comic book crowd is just too small to give him an audience, so I really don't think he's writing for comic book or GA/BC fans. Edited February 7, 2017 by dtissagirl 9 Link to comment
AyChihuahua February 7, 2017 Share February 7, 2017 There are a ton of people who "like" comic books/comic characters, but aren't comics buyers. That's who I think they're going for, which is probably a big overlap with the general audience. The people who go to various Marvel/DC movies, but don't buy tickets beforehand or stand in line the night before. 4 Link to comment
Chaser February 7, 2017 Share February 7, 2017 Well yeah, that's why they were cool with making Green Arrow Begins. That general audience though would have zero idea what is going on in the comic books, so why write to the comic book? 6 Link to comment
Mellowyellow February 7, 2017 Share February 7, 2017 Hehe well they don't seem to be doing too well with those people either judging by the ratings. 1 Link to comment
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