Spoiler Discussion Thread

[LeighAn]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

I saw that promo and it was the other way around. Laurel cradled Oliver's cheek and he responded with a sigh and closed his eyes. He didnt touch her in the snippet I saw.

Haha well that's a step up from when she cradled his cheek in 4x17 and he looked disturbed. 

[Belinea]

It is just such a dumb storyline. So he will just be convinced she is Laurel. Just because. Even after all he has seen, he doesn't need more proof? He just accepts it and puts a gathering together? Also will the storyline give him hope because at least there is one version of Laurel still out there?(I mean, he should have been aware that E-2 exists and therefore there might still be a Laurel out there.) Or will he see, now more than ever, that Laurel's replacement needs to be found? 

I just don't understand why the show continues to play the same stories over and over again. Oliver is dumb and other people then have to feel the pain. Can't he be smart for once?

Edited December 29, 2016 by Belinea

[insomniadreams88]

13 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

Haha well that's a step up from when she cradled his cheek in 4x17 and he looked disturbed. 

Maybe this is why he figures it's Laurel. "Hey, Laurel did this to me before she died. Must be her!" This is going to be such a mess and Oliver's just going to look stupid. 

Remember, this is the same Oliver who thinks that talking to a reporter is a good idea after she screwed over his sister and is probably going to be completely shocked that Diggle's been arrested even though he's been a fugitive this entire time. 

Edited December 29, 2016 by insomniadreams88

[LeighAn]

1 minute ago, Belinea said:

It is just such a dumb storyline. So he will just be convinced she is Laurel. Just because. Even after all he has seen, he doesn't need more proof? He just accepts it and puts a gathering together? Also will the storyline give him hope because at least there is one version of Laurel still out there?(I mean, he should have been aware that E-2 exists and therefore there might still be a Laurel out there.) Or will he see, now more than ever, that Laurel's replacement needs to be found? 

I just don't understand why they show continues to play the same stories over and over again. Oliver is dumb and other people then have to feel the pain. Can't he be smart for once?

It will be all of it. He lets himself get catfished by Not Laurel, then has hope he can find old Laurel in Not Laurel while also wanting to find a new and improved Laurel replacement who's definitely not Laurel cause ... Logic. 

[apinknightmare]

Him thinking it's her is especially stupid considering he was just knowingly mind controlled by aliens and in said mind-controlled state (which he's mentioned twice - at least) dreamed of her wearing the exact outfit she showed up in. Then again, he never seemed to pay that much attention to her, so not realizing that probably isn't that big of a deal.

Maybe he sees all the rings she's wearing and thinks "who else would be wearing all that f-ing jewelry?" 

[Belinea]

I am always amused that nobody ever cared about the fact that Oliver is just somewhat of an idiot. I mean, his idiocy is used as an excuse by the writers. If there is a plot hole, they play the 'Oliver is dumb' card. But it is just weird to me that they don't care that their hero is considered to be not so bright. 

[Featherhat]

1 hour ago, insomniadreams88 said:

I'm actually pretty interested in seeing how they sell this episode in the producer's preview. Didn't WM say that LL was "alive and well" in 510? Will the producer's preview try to act like it's not BS? Because while the CW can put together a promo like they did for 510 and reveal it's BS, I have to wonder if WM is going to talk in the producer's preview like it could be the real Laurel.  

This is the Quote from WM in the interview:

"I can tell you that we’re really excited about having her back. You will see in the episodes where she appears – Episode 510 definitely, our midseason premiere. Keep your eyes out for that. We’re so excited about getting to work with her again and her willingness to come back. It’s one of the fun parts of the show. People can leave and get killed and you can still find new and crazy ways for them to come back. I can definitely tell you that there’s a way we’re going to bring her back and she’s going to be alive and well. And Flashpoint might have a little bit to do with that."

Nowhere does she specify E1 LL or back from the dead LL. I was surprised so many people took her at face value, it seemed like typical EP weasel wording to me. "well technically....BS IS LL....from E2, alive and well" and she certainly wasn't promising LL/KC was rejoining the team or show at this point. She was only promising the 1 episode for sure at that point and we haven't heard if she'll be back towards the end of the season yet, but she might be.  

[Belinea]

3 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

Maybe he sees all the rings she's wearing and thinks "who else would be wearing all that f-ing jewelry?"

Or he will think: 'Cool, did she get that piercing while she was away, relaxing on that big old farm with my hamster from childhood'

[catrox14]

At this point, I'm starting to expand my ongoing Prometheus!Oliver head!canon to be that the dumber-than-a-box-of-rocks -S5!Oliver is his doppelganger from Earth 85million and real!Oliver is Prometheus!Oliver trying to claw his way back into his regular earth.I realize it makes no sense but it really makes more sense than Oliver just not  questioning this not!Laurel resurrection and why he's so easily sleeping with a reporter and giving her info. 

Stop making your hero into a buffoon, showrunners. 

[Belinea]

3 minutes ago, Featherhat said:

We’re so excited about getting to work with her again and her willingness to come back. It’s one of the fun parts of the show. People can leave and get killed and you can still find new and crazy ways for them to come back.

Correction: It is neither fun nor crazy. Not even for people who love LL. She will still be dead. And people generally don't like it when death doesn't matter in any way shape or form any longer. They get tired of it quite easily. 

Also, I assume she isn't just returning out of the kindness of her heart. 

[apinknightmare]

Are they Flashpointing that E2 Laurel ever teamed up with Zoom and got locked up in the Star Labs meta jail? If so, then how did she wind up on E1? Did she come over in the E2 invasion and just chill or something?

I certainly hope that's it, since it's incredibly dumb and unbelievable that Barry & Co not only wouldn't tell Oliver about an E2 Laurel doppelgänger, but also wouldn't tell him that she somehow got out of meta jail and flitted off to wherever.

I'm guessing it's a we-pretend-the-other-shows-don't-exist-outside-of-crossovers plot hole?  If so, yikes.

[LeighAn]

Me thinks we are going to be in for some defensive and pissy social media tweets and Facebook posts/videos from Marc and Stephen when the audience rightly informs them how dumb AF Oliver looks. They always hate that.

"He's just happy and grateful to see his friend, you unfeeling shippers. Stop watching the show wrong!"

[Chaser]

Lol. How do I put this.....? In a season we are told just how important Laurel was, specifically to Oliver, they write an episode where Oliver gets duped by fakeLaurel. Hahaha. Yep. They were so close. Knew each other so well. It's like a backhanded compliement to Ollie/Laurel fans. 

Edited December 29, 2016 by Chaser

[Featherhat]

1 minute ago, Belinea said:

Correction: It is neither fun nor crazy. Not even for people who love LL. She will still be dead. And people generally don't like it when death doesn't matter in any way shape or form any longer. They get tired of it quite easily. 

Also, I assume she isn't just returning out of the kindness of her heart. 

The people that love LL are going especially crazy over this, even more so with Tina being introduced the very next episode. I guess if E1 LL doesn't make an appearance death will still matter for her and BS was an already introduced doppelganger but yeah it seems like a trifecta of can't win storylines for fans. Olicity is still going nowhere, LL is still dead and BS is not sticking around so no Lauriver and they're introducing yet another Canary in the ep right after who may well have meta powers AND be Oliver's latest LI.

[insomniadreams88]

13 minutes ago, Belinea said:

I am always amused that nobody ever cared about the fact that Oliver is just somewhat of an idiot. I mean, his idiocy is used as an excuse by the writers. If there is a plot hole, they play the 'Oliver is dumb' card. But it is just weird to me that they don't care that their hero is considered to be not so bright. 

And look at how they're writing him this season. It's not just that he's an idiot. I don't actually want him near any of the other characters right now because it's not like he's really helping them at all.

Yes, he broke Diggle out of prison, but did he then do anything to make sure that he can't be sent back? Sure, Thea has a job at the mayor's office because of his position as mayor, but he's also leaving her to clean up his messes/cover for him. He probably should have checked in with Lance at some point, given what he saw of his apartment in 501. I'm not even going to get started on Felicity because I could write a really long post in the Bitterness thread about Oliver/Felicity right now. 

He basically thought that the Evelyn problem was solved with one conversation and never even thought to check in with her and she went off to work for Prometheus. He's pushed WD off on Diggle to mentor and has done nothing to check his attitude. He had Felicity talk to Rory (and I still maintain that could've backfired). He probably should have even checked in with Curtis about what he was telling his husband since he saw what lying to his significant other led to. 

Come on, writers. I want better for/from Oliver. 

Edited December 29, 2016 by insomniadreams88

[LeighAn]

3 minutes ago, Chaser said:

Lol. How do I put this.....? In a season we are told just how important Laurel was, specifically to Oliver, they write an episode where Oliver gets duped by fakeLaurel. Hahaha. Yep. They were so close. Knew each other so well. It's like a backhanded compliement to Ollie/Laurel fans. 

Made funnier by the fact that Felicity who had a fairly superficial relationship with Laurel apparently knows the real Laurel better then Oliver (the love of Laurels life) Queen.

[Sunshine]

39 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I saw that promo and it was the other way around. Laurel cradled Oliver's cheek and he responded with a sigh and closed his eyes. He didnt touch her in the snippet I saw.

I rewound it like 5 times to make sure  because I couldn't believe my eyes.

Oh good. That's what I remembered seeing too. Thought I'd lost my mind. I couldn't believe it either.

[Belinea]

Well, to be fair, Oliver never knew Laurel in her bones. It was only the other way around.

Oliver usually forgets many things. Example: Knowing about Mirakuru, knowing about the LOA, knowing about magic. 

[tangerine95]

20 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

And look at how they're writing him this season. It's not just that he's an idiot. I don't actually want him near any of the other characters right now because it's not like he's really helping them at all.

Yes, he broke Diggle out of prison, but did he then do anything to make sure that he can't be sent back? Sure, Thea has a job at the mayor's office because of his position as mayor, but he's also leaving her to clean up his messes/cover for him. He probably should have checked in with Lance at some point, given what he saw of his apartment in 501. I'm not even going to get started on Felicity because I could write a really long post in the Bitterness thread about Oliver/Felicity right now. 

He basically thought that the Evelyn problem was solved with one conversation and never even thought to check in with her and she went off to work for Prometheus. He's pushed WD off on Diggle to mentor and has done nothing to check his attitude. He had Felicity talk to Rory (and I still maintain that could've backfired). He probably should have even checked in with Curtis about what he was telling his husband since he saw what lying to his significant other led to. 

Come on, writers. I want better for/from Oliver. 

Yeah this is one of the things that bothers me the most this season. Oliver has always been written dumb for plot but I haven't thought he was this much of an asshole and had this little simpathy for him since that period in the middle of season 2 when the show was all about Oliver and Sara. 

It feels like they're too busy making him look badass  to write him actually helping his friends and caring about them. And they made a big deal last season about how Oliver would grow be the light and hope for the people close to him like they were for him but idk if that's something that also is getting stalled or they just dropped it. 

Edited December 29, 2016 by tangerine95

[calliope1975]

Can Oliver boink the reporter in this episode as well, so we can get all the stupidity out of the way? I'd like a return to at least semi-smart Oliver.

Edited December 29, 2016 by calliope1975

[apinknightmare]

16 minutes ago, Belinea said:

Oliver usually forgets many things. Example: Knowing about Mirakuru, knowing about the LOA, knowing about magic. 

Oh, definitely. But this was just a week ago in show time, haha.

[Mellowyellow]

I don't think that spoiler was so bad. Oliver has always been as thick as mince! I think not telling Felicity about Demon Spawn when MMerlin knew was much more stupid!

In terms of awfulness we have not reached "Chuck sleeping with Jenny" levels on Gossip Girl yet guys!!!!!! Cheer up!

[statsgirl]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I saw that promo and it was the other way around. Laurel cradled Oliver's cheek and he responded with a sigh and closed his eyes. He didnt touch her in the snippet I saw.

I rewound it like 5 times to make sure  because I couldn't believe my eyes.

Sorry, my bad.  (This is also why you can't trust eyewitness testimony,)

I wonder how Earth 2 Laurel learned so much about Earth 1 Laurel's relationship with Oliver since he died on her earth.  Was Cisco gossiping?

52 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

Maybe this is why he figures it's Laurel. "Hey, Laurel did this to me before she died. Must be her!" This is going to be such a mess and Oliver's just going to look stupid. 

Remember, this is the same Oliver who thinks that talking to a reporter is a good idea after she screwed over his sister and is probably going to be completely shocked that Diggle's been arrested even though he's been a fugitive this entire time. 

I'm really tired of Oliver being stupid-for-plot.  It's been way overused by now. Figure out something new, MG.

[insomniadreams88]

1 minute ago, statsgirl said:

I wonder how Earth 2 Laurel learned so much about Earth 1 Laurel's relationship with Oliver since he died on her earth.  Was Cisco gossiping?

But how much would Cisco know? I'm guessing from Prometheus/public knowledge/his eulogy/speech at her statue? Maybe they'll say that Evelyn was eavesdropping in the hospital when she picked up BC's gear even though everyone else should've seen her in the hallway then? Likely won't even be addressed. She'll just know as much as they want her to know to pass as E-1 LL for however long she does. 

[Chaser]

They probably found Laurels diary. 

"The bad news is my sister died again but guys the outfits fits! Even the mask!"

"My father called me Black Canary today. He sounded angry but he finally saw me as the real Canary!"

"Ollie left town with the girl with glasses. I'm sure they are just roommates."

"Today my Ollie proposed to the girl who does that thing with the computers but I know he didn't mean it."

"They broke up!!!! ..... He seems a little sad, it's probably because he lives in the bunker now. It's a little cold."

"False alarm guys. I didn't die! Ollie didn't say he loved me out loud but I'm sure his bones said it.

[Primal Slayer]

24 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

I wonder how Earth 2 Laurel learned so much about Earth 1 Laurel's relationship with Oliver since he died on her earth.  Was Cisco gossiping?

Same way she found out about the Legends, where the base was, the code, etc..

[Morrigan2575]

1 hour ago, apinknightmare said:

Are they Flashpointing that E2 Laurel ever teamed up with Zoom and got locked up in the Star Labs meta jail? If so, then how did she wind up on E1? Did she come over in the E2 invasion and just chill or something?

Maybe they were going to use Flashpoint before settling on LoT time travel shinnaigans as the excuse? Of course neither explains how Prometheus/Black Siren knows anything about LoT or Flashpoint.

[insomniadreams88]

Prometheus has Oliver's brain. That's why he's being stupid and why Prometheus/BS know everything. 

[apinknightmare]

12 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Maybe they were going to use Flashpoint before settling on LoT time travel shinnaigans as the excuse? Of course neither explains how Prometheus/Black Siren knows anything about LoT or Flashpoint.

I meant the actual reason for her being "alive and well thanks to Flashpoint" or however WM said it, not the in-show one that Laurel uses to dupe the team.

[Morrigan2575]

1 minute ago, apinknightmare said:

I meant the actual reason for her being "alive and well thanks to Flashpoint" or however WM said it, not the in-show one that Laurel uses to dupe the team.

Not sure I follow.

[apinknightmare]

3 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Not sure I follow.

I thought that in the "they were going to use Flashpoint before settling on LoT time travel shenanigans as the excuse" the "they" you were referring to was Laurel and Prometheus, and the excuse they worked up to tell the team about why Laurel was back. Because the team over on LoT obviously didn't time travel to bring Laurel back from the dead, since we're dealing with E2 Laurel in this episode. 

Wendy Mericle said: 

Quote

I can definitely tell you that there's a way we're going to bring her back and she's going to be alive and well. And Flashpoint might have a little bit to do with that.

What I'm wondering is how exactly does Flashpoint play into it? Was E2 Laurel never locked up in the meta jail? 

[AyChihuahua]

1 hour ago, Belinea said:

I am always amused that nobody ever cared about the fact that Oliver is just somewhat of an idiot. I mean, his idiocy is used as an excuse by the writers. If there is a plot hole, they play the 'Oliver is dumb' card. But it is just weird to me that they don't care that their hero is considered to be not so bright. 

My toaster is smarter than Oliver has been since 304. It knows when toast is sufficiently browned.

[thegirlsleuth]

2 hours ago, LeighAn said:

It will be all of it. He lets himself get catfished by Not Laurel, then has hope he can find old Laurel in Not Laurel while also wanting to find a new and improved Laurel replacement who's definitely not Laurel cause ... Logic. 

"Catfishing" describes this situation perfectly, and made me laugh. 

After watching 5.08 and 5.09, I went and caught up with the other episodes I'd skipped, and they didn't make me excited, mostly because I don't like Oliver a whole lot at the moment.  I feel like Diggle always gave Oliver a path towards wisdom, and Felicity and Thea gave him a path towards reconnecting with people.  He's still connected with Diggle a bit, but his emotional makeup is suffering without the strong Thea/Felicity scenes, except for the Thea scene in 5.08, which was emotionally strong even as him leaving her as a pod person made no logical sense.

Between the "Laurel was a saint" rewrite, the Black Siren plot, the possible nuCanary, this show is AGAIN botching a Canary launch.  I know everyone considers the flashbacks the show's Achilles Heel, but as we enter the fourth season of them spending huge amounts of time to launch this "required by the comics" character, I think they have completely hobbled themselves. Sara could have worked if they didn't back out of it, but the rest has been a drag on the show, its plotting, and characterization.

[Morrigan2575]

30 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

What I'm wondering is how exactly does Flashpoint play into it? Was E2 Laurel never locked up in the meta jail? 

I thought the 510 summary said that Prometheus broke her out of Star Labs?

[Chaser]

I went back and read it. It does.

[apinknightmare]

Okay, so no Flashpoint, it seems. And somehow Prometheus knows about the meta jail, that a Laurel look-alike was in there, and he managed to get her out without anyone on Team Flash realizing it (or realizing and failing to let anyone know). Even dumber than I imagined!

[insomniadreams88]

Prometheus is apparently a genius. I'm starting to think if he was good, Star City would be better off than they are with Oliver as GA/mayor. 

[apinknightmare]

At this point he should just find a breach and bring back all the E2 counterparts of Oliver's dead loved ones. If he just uses Laurel, he doesn't have his evil dialed up to 11. 

[tangerine95]

Any excuse they used to justify this random appearance mandated by KC's deal was always going to be dumb, I wasn't expecting anything logical tbh. I don't even get how Prometheus is controlling her or why she's even helping him. She's supposed to be a meta human that was able to almost beat Barry and can bring down buildings with the sonic scream but is listening to a guy with arrows and a sword. 

[apinknightmare]

3 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

Any excuse they used to justify this random appearance mandated by KC's deal was always going to be dumb, I wasn't expecting anything logical tbh.

I expected it to be a reach, but Flashpoint is the perfect retcon excuse. It's also a super lazy way to rewrite history, so I'm just surprised they didn't use it. But ultimately I guess Prometheus knowing this stuff is equally as stupid as him being able to perfectly stage a crime scene that he wasn't present at. So, Arrow being Arrow, I guess.  

Edited December 30, 2016 by apinknightmare

[way2interested]

I would have given them points if near the end of 310 of Flash they mention BS escaping and then in 510 they mention not answering STAR labs messages because of everything that's going on/Laurel reappearing and then BS saying that she just teamed up with Prometheus for lolz, but I guess it shows how much thought is going into the one-off appearance. 

[AyChihuahua]

8 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

Any excuse they used to justify this random appearance mandated by KC's deal was always going to be dumb, I wasn't expecting anything logical tbh. I don't even get how Prometheus is controlling her or why she's even helping him. She's supposed to be a meta human that was able to almost beat Barry and can bring down buildings with the sonic scream but is listening to a guy with arrows and a sword. 

Personally I think THIS appearance is the one they actually wanted. It's a segue into NuBC. IMO the alien stuff was probably the contract-fulfilling ep. 

[tangerine95]

13 minutes ago, AyChihuahua said:

Personally I think THIS appearance is the one they actually wanted. It's a segue into NuBC. IMO the alien stuff was probably the contract-fulfilling ep. 

I mean I don't believe they wanted any appearance other than that scene where she basically tells Oliver replace me lol. But yeah this one they can use to remind Oliver of the promise. 

[insomniadreams88]

13 minutes ago, AyChihuahua said:

Personally I think THIS appearance is the one they actually wanted. It's a segue into NuBC. IMO the alien stuff was probably the contract-fulfilling ep. 

I can buy that. Especially if they want to have everyone believe that the woman in the final scene is BS until the last moment when they reveal it's actually Tina. 

[AyChihuahua]

2 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

I mean I don't believe they wanted any appearance other than that scene where she basically tells Oliver replace me lol. But yeah this one they can use to remind Oliver of the promise. 

By all indications her prior contract for this show was over/settled (you can't really reopen a settlement bc you change your mind, without evidence of fraud). They wanted something from her, and were willing to give her something in return in a new contract. I'm betting they wanted the statue (image rights) and this to segue to NuBC. They could have easily left her out of the alien crap.

[way2interested]

I would have thought that they would want to use her/her image for the 100th episode though as well since it's the 100th episode, regardless of what her role in it was going to be (whether this alt-world of Laurel and Oliver getting married came first or later), and that this 510 appearance feels a lot more tacked on when the statue and the 508 dream could be all that's needed to push for finding a new BC.

[BkWurm1]

2 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Maybe they were going to use Flashpoint before settling on LoT time travel shinnaigans as the excuse? Of course neither explains how Prometheus/Black Siren knows anything about LoT or Flashpoint.

Well, Evelyn would have gotten told all the stories about the Alien invasion she somehow slept through.  And I'm sure that included LoT and Flashpoint.  So that part of it doesn't surprise me.  Prometheus can easily feed BS the intel Evelyn passes along.  Here's my question though, why?  What was his plan with fakeLaurel?  He didn't need her to get into the bunker since he provided the code.  Did he just want a new mole?  Was he just messing with emotions again?  It's just a weird choice IMO.  

Edited December 30, 2016 by BkWurm1

[AyChihuahua]

21 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

It's just a weird choice IMO.  

Story of Arrow, really.

[insomniadreams88]

25 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

What was his plan with fakeLaurel?  He didn't need her to get into the bunker since he provided the code.  Did he just want a new mole?  Was he just messing with emotions again?  It's just a weird choice IMO.  

It probably won't be anything logical. I hope it's to be a distraction while he's planning something else but it'll probably end up being because... it's not really explained. (And because they need to lead into new BC.) I can't imagine that Prometheus would actually think that BS would be able to fool them long enough to serve as a mole for longer than one night, maybe two days. 

Can someone remind me what BS did while working for Zoom on The Flash? How many people did she hurt? Maybe that's what will be changed because of Flashpoint? She won't have actually done anything that bad so Oliver won't look like a complete idiot (only 99% an idiot instead of 100%) for looking for a piece of LL in her?

[ComicFan777]

I think sending E2 LL to the lair is just a power play - Prometheus wants to mess with Oliver and this is another way for him to demonstrate that he knows Oliver very well and can make him miserable whenever he wants to.  At the same time, it is a reminder that yet again, another person close to Oliver had their life ruined because they were associated with him.