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Morrigan2575

By Morrigan2575
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Carrie Ann
Carrie Ann

Me for all of last summer hiatus and 5A: Me after reading the WM interview from a few weeks back about Felicity's arc giving her a more profound understanding of Oliver: Me after r

BkWurm1
BkWurm1

I tend to think that trying to make KC a place on the show had a ripple effect that did hurt the show pretty badly.  She's what turned Quentin stupid and into a creepy stalker.  So that wipes off the

calliope1975
calliope1975

Challenge accepted.

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Sakura12

Sakura12

It can be a team show, but every team has a team leader. That's what the discussion on LoT is, who is the team leader. I don't know why they can't just say Oliver's the team leader. Diggle, Felicity, Thea and Because Comics are on his team. 

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kismet

kismet

I agree about the team leader. I'm pleased it sounds like it was Diggle in the months Oliver and Felicity were away but it should be Oliver. I'm all for him listening to his team members more and not making all the decisions but this is his show. I kind of hate that they try to lessen his importance. 

I like to think of OQ as a Peyton Manning/Michael Jordan level team player and almost always designated Team Captain by nature of skill and role position. He's game-changer/marquee player. Put him on any team (good, bad or somewhere in between) and he will make them a Championship level team. Remove him and the team might do okay, but certainly not as well as they did with him. But it all depends on the structure of the team and how they strategize to win.

 

For example, a team that takes its strategy, structure & foundation for winning from a Marquee/Game Changing Coach like Belichick/Krzyzewski (Coach K) - the talent level of the players does not have to be as high because the players are interchangeable. Its the coaching/strategy that is winning and creating dynasties. In Arrow, this would be like Ras (if they hadn't weakened him for plot) or DD (if they live up to their promises).

 

If the strategy, structure & foundation for winning for a team comes from its Marquee/Game Changing Player; than it does become important who the leader is and who running the plays. Nobody would draft a Manning or Jordan and then bench him for reasons (unrelated to injuries, esp in their prime). If they are on a team, these guys are the leaders. However, the relationship between this marquee player and his teammates also becomes critical because they need to have good & trustworthy relationships. You're team is only as good as its weakest link. So in the seasons when the Marquee leader is there, these teammates may set record breaking numbers, not because they are that good - but because they have someone that amazing throwing the ball at them.

 

I feel like the new Team Arrow will adopt this structure of Marquee leader (OQ). They are all a team and every player is important. But the strategy, structure & foundation for winning will come from its natural leader, OQ. The summer hiatus team held their own, perhaps kept their heads above water - but there were no championship banners in their site. Which is why they had to bring back in their Marquee leader. But like all teams, they will win & lose together, so hopefully not everything will be OQ's fault this season. The show knows who its Manning/Jordan is. They may play around with some of the other combinations but at the end of the day they know who the person the people filling the seats are coming to see. OQ will always be their MVP.

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Chaser

Chaser

Regarding KC's video from Baltimore, it seems she may be to LOT what Felicity is to the Flash. Why would we even need a floater between the shows if you already have characters who pop over?

The training from other shows is curious. That implies LOT and The Flash. The only way I can see her needing training on The Flash is if she gets Meta'd. LOT is also mid season and per WM there is no more learning curve. Why is she making special trips for training. I know that MG said KC wasn't the floater but I find the 'training' an odd reason to visit the other shows.

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Guest

Guest

(edited)

I'm not saying every member of the team isn't important. But this show is called Arrow. It's Oliver Queen's story. He should be the leader. The team should need him. If they try to hint in the first episode that they've been doing fine without him, then what exactly is the point? They're basically saying they don't really need him and IMO that's wrong. (Not saying this will happen, it's just speculation.)

 

I think part of Oliver's evolution and growth as a character is to let people in, let people help him. I agree. That's totally fine. But he should always be the most important piece. And in s3 they tried to suggest otherwise and push him out of his own show and nope. Not here for it. 

Edited by Guest
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dtissagirl

dtissagirl

(edited)

If they try to hint in the first episode that they've been doing fine without him, then what exactly is the point? They're basically saying they don't really need him and IMO that's wrong. (Not saying this will happen, it's just speculation.)

 

I think this will happen on 401, but not on this meta level of who would be the de-facto leader on a show called Arrow.

 

I think this will be part Diggle's issues with Oliver. When we pick up, Dig will have spent the last 5 months in charge of the team. But now they're getting their asses kicked, so Laurel and Thea will go ask Oliver for help -- maybe behind Dig's back? I'm not sure, but likely -- and Diggle will most likely question Oliver's commitment to Sparkle Motion to being a masked superhero.

 

And then at some point in 401 -- I'm thinking after Oliver takes a bullet for Dig -- Oliver will do his I'm the Green Arrow and I'm here to save this city announcement, and Diggle will accept Oliver's leadership again.

Edited by dtissagirl
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Guest

Guest

I'm cool with that idea. As I said before, I'm happy that Diggle is the leader while O/F are away. As it should be. And I definitely see a way to explore the Oliver/Diggle tension there. That's all good. 

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dtissagirl

dtissagirl

(edited)

I know Stephen mentioned at some con that there's no more ~LEADER~ on Team Arrow anymore, but I think that just means that Oliver's not gonna be making decisions for everyone anymore. Part of being an efficient leader is learning to 1. listen to other people's POV and 2. delegate. Two things Oliver kinda sucked at before.

 

And on a meta level, I'm also wondering if maybe we'll have some episodes where characters other than Oliver are gonna leading the story POV, because the villain of the week is "theirs", you know? Which I won't mind, because I really love Oliver when he's allowed to show his supportive side. It takes me back to Russian goodtimes. :)

Edited by dtissagirl
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Morrigan2575

Morrigan2575

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(edited)

I'll be honest.  Coming from an Angel background, having Oliver not be the the Team Leader doesn't bother me.  I thought the best thing they ever did was have Wesley take over the leadership role in S2-S3 while keeping Angel as the lone hero.  It also works well in Comics...no one should ever put Wolverine in charge of anyone but himself...he's not a good leader.  So Scott is Fearless Leader and Wolverine is Lone Wolf/Asshole  (yeah not a Wolvie fan)

 

I would be totally fine with Oliver/GA being the HERO while Diggle remains the LEADER.

Edited by Morrigan2575
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tv echo

tv echo

(edited)

So I just watched the "A Sneak Peek at Arrow Season 4" preview video and I got a lot from it...

 

New or Expanded Scenes:
-- Scene where Felicity feeds Oliver her cooked omelette, and he says "Felicity Smoak, you have failed this omelette." 
-- Scene where DD enters room where Quentin and other city officials are meeting and says to them, "If you have any friends or anyone who does love you, I suggest you say goodbye."
-- Scene where a scared-looking young woman with hands tied who could be Jessica Danforth's daughter (played by Tiera Skovbye?) faces Lonnie Machin/Anarky, and then Speedy, GA, BC and Diggle crash down through the skylight.
-- Scene at Palmer Tech where Felicity picks up a silver metal sphere, says "Oooh, what's this?", tosses it a few times, and then tosses the sphere to Curtis Holt. Curtis catches the sphere and says, "This is an autonomous communications device (puts sphere on metal pedestal) - which is great, except for the fact that it spontaneously explodes."
-- Some shots of behind-the-scenes filming of LoT.
-- Scene where Oliver is jogging in a nice suburban neighborhood, smiles and says "How're you doing?" to a neighbor mowing the lawn, and then heads up the driveway to his nice suburban home.
-- Scene where Oliver says to Felicity, "Damien Darhk is in Starling City."
-- Scene where Oliver/GA and Diggle are on a train, Oliver says "We need to stop the train", then Diggle says "Got any ideas?", and Oliver replies "Yeah, blow it up."

 

WM Comments:
-- WM: "When we find him at the start of season 4, Oliver is living in domestic bliss with Felicity... It's genuine. He's very happy with her. The city in the meantime has really declined and we're going to find out that there's big problems there that are going to draw him back. And even though he's kind of, you know, forsaken the Hood for the moment, it can't last for long cause  they need him."
-- WM: "We've really conceived season 4 as a fight between light and dark.  We really want to think of Oliver this season as someone who is - who has a lot of faith in humanity and wants to step into the light, both as the Arrow and as Oliver Queen. But at the same time, he's going up against what we hope will be the most dangerous villain he's ever encountered."
-- WM: "Damien Darhk has come to Starling City to be our Big Bad for this season and also wreak a lot of havoc. He's a former member of the League, but has taken his powers and his agenda into a much more modern and completely new level, and a very scary level. Damien's going to fight Oliver, and things are going to get pretty scary for him and Felicity."
-- WM: "Oliver said at the end of season 3, 'I always intended to do this alone.' And now, he's not. And I think, although he's giving up a little bit of power in that way, he's also embracing the fact there are other people there to help him, and he's actually going to be open to letting other people help him."
-- WM: "When we come back, Black Canary - everybody will have grown a bit, their skills will be more advanced.  We'll really going to see the team on a whole different level, and Oliver's place in it is going to change as well."
-- WM: "The season's going to be very much about Felicity and Digg. I mean, one of the other themes of the season is family, and how does Oliver kinda step into the light in a relationship with Felicity and also protect the people he loves. In the past, he's always said 'I can't be in love and be the Arrow at the same time'.(*)  And this season, he's going to try to do both."

   (* This kinda clarifies for me why S2 Oliver told Felicity that he couldn't be with someone he "could really care about" and still be the Arrow, and then jumped right into a relationship with Sara - someone he clearly cared about.  What he meant was that he couldn't fall in love and still be the Arrow.)
-- WM: "Digg will be getting a costume - will be getting a very cool mask. He will have a code name."
-- WM: "Felicity too will obviously step up. She's going to be a key figure at Palmer Tech. You know, Ray Palmer was killed in episode 323. Felicity will take over for Ray at Palmer Tech, as we saw in last season she signed a little piece of paper that gave her power over the company. And also she'll be a big force on the team, really stepping up. We're very excited about having Speedy, Black Canary and Felicity all working in the lair together."
-- WM: "We have a couple of new characters that we're really excited about.  The first is a new villain. We're going to bring in the Batman villain, Anarky. He's going to be a lot like Damien in that he's also sociopathic, but we're going to get the opportunity to really see the birth of a villain. We're going to really see what happens, why does Lonnie Machin become Anarky, what happens to him. And the cool thing about it is we're going to set it up so that it really is Oliver and, to some extent, Thea's fault that Lonnie Machin goes in the direction that he goes. And Lonnie will also blame Damien for a lot of what happens to him. So that he's going to be an interesting character in that he's opposed to both our Big Bad and our hero."
-- WM: "Echo Kellum came into our audition and just blew us away. We knew immediately that this was the guy for the job... We needed someone who could go toe-to-toe with Felicity in terms of just the quickness, and the wit, and the fun lines... We're just excited to have him. He's going to be living mostly at Palmer Tech, but might be joining the team somewhere down the line."
-- WM: "We're going to introduce some very cool characters in episode 408, one of whom will be Hawkman. This season, the crossover is going to be really the place where we launch Legends. It's going to be a very cool, exciting episode where we really see a couple members of the Legends team and their origin story - where they start, and how they get launched into this universe."
-- WM: "This season Oliver is happier. For the first time since returning home, he is not in a sort of PTSD, post-war state of mind. He's now very hopeful and very optimistic for the future because he's in love. He is going to have a little bit more fun out in the field, but at the same time, he's going up against the most dangerous villain he's ever encountered. It's really a question of how he stays in the light and doesn't let himself get pulled back into that darkness, despite the kind of gravitas and nastiness of what Damien is trying to do to the city."

Edited by tv echo
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wingster55

wingster55

See, I don't like the idea that Diggle, Laurel and Thea can't handle the common criminal element. Especially Diggle and Thea who was supposed to have progressed quicker than even Oliver at fighting.

But since it's been 4 months I'm guessing it's not a common criminal

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SonofaBiscuit

SonofaBiscuit

Regarding KC's video from Baltimore, it seems she may be to LOT what Felicity is to the Flash. Why would we even need a floater between the shows if you already have characters who pop over?

The training from other shows is curious. That implies LOT and The Flash. The only way I can see her needing training on The Flash is if she gets Meta'd. LOT is also mid season and per WM there is no more learning curve. Why is she making special trips for training. I know that MG said KC wasn't the floater but I find the 'training' an odd reason to visit the other shows.

 

They still really have no idea what to do with Laurel, do they?  So now they're just going to ship her off to other shows periodically, I guess.  But here's the thing...I've noticed that this really pisses your viewers off.  I was reading The Flash forum the other day (don't recommend it, it can be a SCARY place), and I saw a comment that was really irritated by Felicity's continued appearance over on The Flash.  Throughout last season, I saw comments that were annoyed that Felicity was getting focus on The Flash when Iris really needed some development.  Are these people who are already aggravated by Felicity's appearances on The Flash going to take so kindly to Laurel showing up?  And maybe they won't get the nice, happy Twilight Zone version of Laurel that they got last time, either.  Maybe they'll have to endure the version that throws glasses, lies to her father while tricking him into thinking his other daughter is alive, smiles gleefully while sending her sister off to be an assassin, etc. Have fun with that!    

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Guest

Guest

I was reading The Flash forum the other day (don't recommend it, it can be a SCARY place), and I saw a comment that was really irritated by Felicity's continued appearance over on The Flash.  Throughout last season, I saw comments that were annoyed that Felicity was getting focus on The Flash when Iris really needed some development.  Are these people who are already aggravated by Felicity's appearances on The Flash going to take so kindly to Laurel showing up? 

 

Yeah, The Flash viewers don't like the constant crossovers, especially from female characters who take away viewing time from Iris. I can understand that. And tbh, I was just as annoyed with feeling I had to watch The Flash just to see my favorite character. They need to stop. One crossover per season is enough.

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Sakura12

Sakura12

They've never known what to do with Laurel, her whole purpose revolves around Sara. With Sara being alive again they probably have even less of an idea of what to with her.

 

I don't think the Flash fans want any of the Arrow cast over on their show until Iris gets more to do. Felicity or Laurel will add nothing to it. If Linda is going to stick around for Wally they won't need a part time female friend with Felicity or Laurel. 

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tarotx

tarotx

(edited)

Laurel's from comics and not a former Barry love interest so I don't think they will have a problem with her over in the Flash forum. I think for LOT fans Laurel's presence will be an issue. I personally am potentially OK with Laurel on LOT but at the same time weary. IF CL&KC can click this time around it has potential but so far the two haven't been really great in scenes together. 

Edited by tarotx
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tarotx

tarotx

Yeah Felicity was an actual recurring character. She was involved in the plot of her cross overs. It'll probably be different season 2 just because she's the actual Arrow Girlfriend  now and Barry has 3 kind of love interest on his show season 2. 

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SonofaBiscuit

SonofaBiscuit

Apparently, people from The Flash and LoT will be training Laurel, so that's going to pull whoever is training her away from whatever storyline is going on at the time.  Surely it's going to be more than five minutes of screen time once or twice.  In summary, I will be waiting for complaints similar in nature to when Felicity was on The Flash.

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Sakura12

Sakura12

(edited)

I thought LL was the fully formed Because Comics? Why are they wasting other characters storylines to continue to train her? If she's not fully trained then I'm putting her in the sidekick category. 

Edited by Sakura12
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BaggythePanther

BaggythePanther

Yeah, The Flash viewers don't like the constant crossovers, especially from female characters who take away viewing time from Iris. I can understand that. And tbh, I was just as annoyed with feeling I had to watch The Flash just to see my favorite character. They need to stop. One crossover per season is enough.

I can definitely understand being annoyed that a non cast member female is taking up screen time that could be given to Iris. But Felicity's appearance on The Flash is what convinced me to star watching Arrow. When I started watching The Flash I had no intention of ever watching Arrow but I really enjoyed Felicity and decided to watch Arrow to find out more about her.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who's decided to start watching Arrow because of one of the crossovers (and the reverse is probably true of The Flash characters showing up on Arrow) so I can't see them stopping when the crossovers provide a ratings boost.

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Chaser

Chaser

I still think training makes no sense.

I can see Laurel having an easier time on Flash. Comic character, no romantic history with Barry and with Iris in the know more scenes between the two in the main plot. As opposed to Felicity who had scenes with Iris but went off to help Barry and be a confidant while Iris did other things.

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Primal Slayer

Primal Slayer

I thought LL was the fully formed Because Comics? Why are they wasting other characters storylines to continue to train her? If she's not fully trained then I'm putting her in the sidekick category.

Just as Oliver still had to be trained to fight Ra's, Black Canary continues to train to become better. Guess no charecters can spar with one another.

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Sakura12

Sakura12

(edited)

Sparring is not the same as training. They said Laurel needs training from the other characters. If she's the full BC then she should just get her own storylines and not waste other characters storylines to train her. That leads me to believe she's not the full BC, she's sidekick BC. 

Edited by Sakura12
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Primal Slayer

Primal Slayer

It is still keeping their training up and learning new things from the person if one is more advanced.

The difference is they specifically said she was done training. And now they say she is getting more training? Which is it?

It seems like they meant her massive learning curve is done. She won't be fumbling around anymore. Unless she is a master in something, she can still receive training in different martial arts styles.

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wingster55

wingster55

 

Apparently, people from The Flash and LoT will be training Laurel, so that's going to pull whoever is training her away from whatever storyline is going on at the time.  Surely it's going to be more than five minutes of screen time once or twice.  In summary, I will be waiting for complaints similar in nature to when Felicity was on The Flash.

Why is it a big deal if people hate Felicity and not Laurel? 

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tarotx

tarotx

I come to look at Laurel and Sara(her run on Arrow at least) as arrow's version of the second gen comic Black Canary. They are both derived from her but neither is her. So they are both unique characters to the Arrow verse imo. It's because JB called them the Canary sister and that concept has stuck in my head that I have dealt with Laurel being the Black Canary instead of Manhunter. I'm hoping KC is more at ease around CL now that Laurel is the BC. KC needs to feel at ease if Sara is going to train Laurel.  I can see why their training together could be a good thing if they can get the feel right. I wanted Sara and Nyssa to train Laurel in the break between season 2 and 3 :(

 

As for as team Arrow, I'm hoping that Laurel gets the concept of her being part of a team. She is the one I worry about being able to accept "team" doesn't have an I. She has done it in action scenes but very rarely has she accepted the no I in team with her dialogue and body language. That is what I think she can learn from LOT since they all are learning that as well.

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kismet

kismet

Yeah Felicity was an actual recurring character. She was involved in the plot of her cross overs. It'll probably be different season 2 just because she's the actual Arrow Girlfriend  now and Barry has 3 kind of love interest on his show season 2. 

They even gave her her own villain! They also always made it seem like she was visiting to use them in some way. It never felt like she was just dropping by - there was always some plot heavy agenda. Especially the crossover with RP, they should have just had FS drop him off like Summer Camp and pick him up at the end. I can see why FLASH viewers got a little FS fatigue. Beyond the major crossover, every other FLASH character that has come to ARROW has been small part or part of the B plot.

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SonofaBiscuit

SonofaBiscuit

Why is it a big deal if people hate Felicity and not Laurel? 

 

Oh, I think you've misunderstood me.  I don't care if people hate Felicity, and I don't care if they hate Laurel.  The Felicity complaints over on The Flash were that she was pulling too much time away from the show that should have been used on Iris.  All I'm saying is that I'm expecting the same complaints if Laurel (or anyone else that has been confirmed as showing up over there) ends up pulling too much focus away from The Flash characters (and I'm particularly pointing out Iris since I saw that complaint time and time again).  Hating on fictional people doesn't upset me, sorry if I originally phrased that in a way that led you to believe that it does. 

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Chaser

Chaser

She just dropped by for a break in her first crossover. I loved that fist crossover. It did such a great job at establishing a friendship. It was the second one the agenda heavy, but that was on Ray not her. Her 'nemesis' was a joke.

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HighwayFlower

HighwayFlower

Is she not joining a show as a full time character with Canary in her name?

Yes, and I'm very happy for that, my problem is I love comic book Black Canary, and they gave Sara a backstory and personality that brought her to life almost perfectly. If they wanted Laurel to be BC, they should have given her Sara's story. Instead I see a character given the name of my beloved comic book hero, who is nothing like her at all.

But this discussion should probably go to bitterness if continued.

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kismet

kismet

I thought LL was the fully formed Because Comics? Why are they wasting other characters storylines to continue to train her? If she's not fully trained then I'm putting her in the sidekick category. 

They stated there is no learning curve on ARROW. But WM & TPTB never mentioned anything about a learning curve on the other shows. Oh the joys of fine print and reading between the written & hidden words. Always got to watch these writers they can be very crafty when they want to be.

 

Honestly, I just want her on a show where she is a cohesive part of the main team or I want her off all the shows and only brought in for recurring bits when they actually remember to write for her character. I think moving off ARROW to one of the other shows or being the Floater is the best option for her character growth. But we have all had this conversation ad nauseum multiple times.

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SonofaBiscuit

SonofaBiscuit

(edited)

Yes, my whole point was that people are already sick of characters repeatedly crossing over, as evidenced by the stuff posted here at previously.tv.  This was in response to the video posted by KC saying that she will be appearing on LoT and getting training on other shows.  Of course Felicity was my example because she's the one who kept crossing over to The Flash!  And from what I've seen, Flash viewers are sick of it, and Arrow viewers are irritated that important Felicity info/developments are happening on another show.  And if viewers were already annoyed by it last season, deduction tells me that they will continue to be annoyed by it this season when when everything becomes "basically one show." That's all I was trying to say.  But anyways, I'm just going to move on because nobody wants to read five pages of back and forth over things like this.      

Edited by SonofaBiscuit
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Happy Harpy

Happy Harpy

Did I miss something, or did WM never mention "Laurel" by name in the sneak peek? (I only began to realize it mid-trailer, and I didn't bother to watch it again so I'm not 100% positive). In the Laurel thread, there were remarks that I found interesting about BC being more popular than Laurel is. They'd be even more interesting, then.

 

There were one or two throwaway mentions of her alter ego's name as part of the team (still doesn't work with me, sorry sooo not sorry)  in the middle of some Oliver, Felicity and Diggle galore, OTOH -and if it reflects the airtime this season I will be a very happy camper.

IIRC, Thea was mostly referred to as "Speedy" but her real name was mentioned at least once -as in "Oliver and Thea", siblings. Mmh. I understand that her blood ties to Oliver make Thea relevant and probably saved her when she was in Scrappy territory back in S1, but it makes me wonder whether she'll get to grow beyond her "little sister" flag. Willa Holland has the chops...can't they get C.Haynes and B.Taylor-Klaus back? Thea and her gang would be a side plot I'd like to see -with those particular characters, not interested in  any kind of ersatz.

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kismet

kismet

(edited)

I think Thea's bloodline saved her character for 2 seasons in a row. First in s1 as OQ's only sister and then in s2 as MM's illegitimate love child. She might have gone the way of MQ (RIP, still bad writers choice to kill any of them). Now that the trained her and gotten rid of some of her teeny angst crap, they can actually organically write he into so many stories. Luckily, WH's acting chops have grown in my opinion because I actually look fwd to her screentime & plot lines now. I was bummed that they took away her agency in s3a, but I do think overall her character was the MIP of the season & showed the most growth & potential despite her plot heavy story. For s4, I think its best to to keep her closely connected with OQ &/or Dig on the main story arcs of the show.

 

As much as I loved her in Teen Arrow, I think she has outgrown that. I also think letting Roy go for a little bit was good for her character to not bog her down in a long-term LI relationship. Her relationship with him was going on/off again for 3 yrs, it was getting awkward because you wanted them to just be together or not. But there was no room in the onscreen story for a well written on/off again relationship. Also it felt too young for her to settle down; after all RH & her had been through that may have seemed like a realistic option. I'm looking fwd to her interactions with the new LI and whatever role she plays in Anarky's journey. I'm excited for s4 because now that Roy is gone & SL is back from the dead - we can actually get a story about Thea & her character, not just a plot checklist.

Edited by kismet
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