statsgirl August 13, 2015 Share August 13, 2015 I think it makes sense to work on the resurrections alternately. Felicity and Mr. Terrifice figure out Ray isn't dead just mini (I wonder if they will CGI him in) and work on getting him big. Meanwhile Sara's resurrection and going crazy and Constantine comes to fix it. Then Sara goes off to try to deal with her demons, maybe with Nyssa, and Ray gets made bigger. Then the cross-over to set up the LoT. I don't think it's such a bad idea to use the fall to set up LoT instead of focusing on DD. I thought s2 worked better when Slade started menacing only in January than s3 when they brought in Ra's early on but in such a weak way, it neutered an already bad storyline. I wonder if there will be a mid-season cliff-hanger this year (about DD?) since they will be setting up LoT to start in January. I don't know, I'm just cynical since MG said that ep 5 will have significant Oliver/Laurel interaction and significant Laurel/Constantine interaction. Maybe that's before Sara's actually brought back? I don't think they have to set her up majorly for the spinoff at all. We already know her - better than any of the other characters that are going to be on LoT. All they really have to do is establish that she's not the same Sara that she used to be, and show her struggling with that (they can explore the resolution on the new show). Who's going to have issues with her not being herself? Her family - and they're the ones who are actually staying on Arrow. That's my concern about it. Good point, that this will probably be about those who remain on Arrow, which will be Laurel (because they always spend the most time on Laurel) and Quentin. Sin probably depends on the actress' availability but they seem to have forgotten her special relationship with Sara, like they've forgotten Felicity was Sara's friend. I hope there's some good stuff for Quentin because Paul Blackthorne deserves it after a lousy s2 and Thea should have some powerful scenes with her and Oliver (and Roy if they bring CH back) about guilt and burndens but it will probably be Laurel, Laurel, Laurel again. Link to comment
AyChihuahua August 13, 2015 Share August 13, 2015 I'm going to have one of my very rare bouts of Arrow-related optimism for the Sara story. 1 Link to comment
Starfish35 August 13, 2015 Share August 13, 2015 I wonder if there will be a mid-season cliff-hanger this year (about DD?) since they will be setting up LoT to start in January. I think so, probably. I saw somewhere that the crossover this year (208/408) will effectively be the LoT pilot. It makes sense then that after that they would want to use the midseason finales to set up the rest of the season for the parent shows. 1 Link to comment
AyChihuahua August 13, 2015 Share August 13, 2015 (edited) Re this from the spoiler thread, I honestly wonder whether Guggie watches his own show sometimes, because we most definitely saw the evolution of Slade Wilson from a special agent with a heart of gold-ish material to the villain Deathstroke. The take is very similar to Arrow. We wanted to see the evolution of a bad guy, the evolution of a villain. A lot of times on our show, the villains sort of come to us pret a porter. They're fully formed. Edited August 13, 2015 by AyChihuahua 4 Link to comment
kismet August 13, 2015 Share August 13, 2015 I'm wondering what they are going to do about Ray. As far as I know, BR hasn't been spotted in Vancouver. I orginally thought the storys would ran at the same time. So-and-so working with Sara and Felicity/Mr. Terrific on Ray, but now I'm thinking Ray will be brought back after. Probably right before the crossover. I think there will be a lot of plot & stories about him. Apparently the writers are fixated on making FS all about Ray again they even brought in a terrific sidekick to fill the void that honestly imo never existed in the first place. (Apologize for snarky speculation) That being said, I don't think BR will be needed for most of this story. That is the one perk to being super small & missing... you can have stories written about your character and never be on the screen. Double win for the show as it doesn't have to pay his salary/guest fee. I think the first will see of BR will be around 308 territory. Close enough to crossover & LoT send-off. I feel like BR himself might only actually be in a handful of ARROW episodes this season. Link to comment
AyChihuahua August 13, 2015 Share August 13, 2015 I feel like BR himself might only actually be in a handful of ARROW episodes this season. Please be right; please be right! 4 Link to comment
kismet August 13, 2015 Share August 13, 2015 Re this from the spoiler thread, I honestly wonder whether Guggie watches his own show sometimes, because we most definitely saw the evolution of Slade Wilson from a special agent with a heart of gold-ish material to the villain Deathstroke. I do question if he watches his own show at times... perhaps he doesn't because it messes with his writers' juju. But in his defense, I think he was trying to allude that they've never done a true evolution/origin of a villain story. They briefly hit it with Deadshot, but his was more just a hardened & losing of one's soul to the job. Even his journey was forced because of another agency outside of him. He became a cold hearted assassin for hire, but it the end he really was still not that bad of a guy & made the ultimate sacrifice in the end. Deathstroke was a well written journey, but he became a villain after he was injected with Mirakuru, killed & left for dead by his good friend/partner. (I'm choosing to forget the gilted lover/romance with Shado, because I don't think that really was anything except so easy to write cliche villain motivation). As much as I appreciated the story & Manu brought so much to the table. We never saw Slade willingly choosing the darkness and willingly choosing the villain path. He was masterful at being both the heart of gold guy & the villain. It definitely overall was a well written character & trajectory, and made s2 amazing. I think that will be different with Anarky. Whatever happens to him in his life before Anarky, his way of dealing with it is by the darkness. There are no external forces like HIVE blackmailing him into it, or injections of magical evil serums. He will choose to become a villain through his actions & choices. It will parallel some of the Arrow heroes who rather choose to be heroic despite the awful things that have been done to them. We will probably see this journey and thus bear witness to the origin of a villain. Honestly, if done right, it could be a lot of fun. Part of why origin stories are so interesting is you get to see where people had the option to go a different way and chose not to. You're either yelling or cheering at their choices, but still you get an up close view of how they became who they are. Link to comment
AyChihuahua August 13, 2015 Share August 13, 2015 (edited) But a lot of villain evolution stories include someone else doing something bad to them/outside forces. Even Deadshot had the HIVE person come to him to offer to make him an assassin. And Slade did still choose to be bad. The mirakuru messed him up, but it wasn't like he was possessed or something, which we had confirmed when he was cured and still wanted to kill Oliver, etc. Re Deadshot not being that bad of a guy, I really think that's just the actor's charisma and his last few scenes, particularly after Waller had him. He did murder Andy Diggle, by all accounts a good man, that ambassador, and various waiters, etc., when he was trying to kill Walter at the auction. He also killed at least one cop that night, the cop whose place he took. For me murdering innocent people makes him definitively a villain, v. an anti-hero. Edited August 13, 2015 by AyChihuahua Link to comment
HighwayFlower August 13, 2015 Share August 13, 2015 BR grew on me. I am glad he won't be staying on Arrow, but his adorkable side was cute. Link to comment
kismet August 13, 2015 Share August 13, 2015 But a lot of villain evolution stories include someone else doing something bad to them/outside forces. Even Deadshot had the HIVE person come to him to offer to make him an assassin. And Slade did still choose to be bad. The mirakuru messed him up, but it wasn't like he was possessed or something, which we had confirmed when he was cured and still wanted to kill Oliver, etc. Re Deadshot not being that bad of a guy, I really think that's just the actor's charisma and his last few scenes, particularly after Waller had him. He did murder Andy Diggle, by all accounts a good man, that ambassador, and various waiters, etc., when he was trying to kill Walter at the auction. He also killed at least one cop that night, the cop whose place he took. For me murdering innocent people makes him definitively a villain, v. an anti-hero. Agree that there is a lot of different types of evolution stories for Villains. As you pointed out, Arrow covered some of them with Deathstroke. I just think with Anarchy we're going to see a villain choosing to be one as more of an internal choice with little to no external factors, which has not been covered yet in Arrow's origins arcs. Deadshot was a trained assassin hired to do a mission. So some of those deaths were collateral damage, which is wrong but more the nature of the situation not a reflection of his choices. He never actively sought & killed innocent people for sport, game or advantage. His morality is very grey & hard to really decipher. He's not necessarily all villain or all anti-hero. He was very complex, its hard to say where he falls on the scale of villain/anti-hero. Its hard to say what would have happened if HIVE had never approached him and then Waller blackmailed him. He was not free to make a lot of his own decisions. In many ways he was simply a pawn in a much larger game. Characters like Deadshot intrigue me because they can't easily be put into one category or the other which I think is true to real life. I'm still hoping that he's not really dead & can come back to Arrow once DC permits him to. Link to comment
kismet August 13, 2015 Share August 13, 2015 From the Spoilers Section, quote from MG's interview Can we talk about the flashbacks? Are we going to see some comic book heroes in them that have a tie to the present day? Well, I'll tell you, one of the things that we're trying do with the flashbacks this year is, we want the flashbacks to tie into the present day in a different way than they typically have in the past. In the past, it's always been someone from the -- in previous seasons -- from the flashback showing up in the present day. And we're going to try to create a different kind of connection between flashback and present day story, rather than go to that well all the time. This makes me think that the FB LI will stay in FB and most likely die there. Or at least for s4, who knows what soap opera crazy they could get in their head for s5. I think whatever happens between her & OQ will parallel OQ&FS, showing us how OQ is developing healthier ways in the present. In s1&2, I feel like the FB showed us how OQ became who he was in the pilot. It explained how he became so broken & emotionally/physically scarred. Thus showing the depths of his hurt & PTSD. S3 set-up some ridiculous finale points & gave us a cool reason to have Katana/Maseo around. Whereas, I think s4 will show us WHY it is so important that OQ makes the decisions he does in the present. WHY he chooses to go to the light as opposed to the dark. WHY he is now on a Heros journey, not just doing heroic things. It will show us WHY is so important to have good influences around you like FS & JD. If I was a betting person I would say the THEME of s4 is going to CHOICES. 5 Link to comment
statsgirl August 14, 2015 Share August 14, 2015 Having a FB love interest that is unhealthy will let them bring back the manwhore Oliver Queen and will also let them be subtle in the present with OQ/FS so as not to freak out those who don't like Olicity while they show that it's a much healthier Oliver in a healthier relationship in the present. At least, that's what they seem to be trying for. It doesn't always translate to that on the screen. Link to comment
wonderwall August 14, 2015 Share August 14, 2015 Hmm y'know thinking about it, I can definitely see Oliver and Felicity living with Thea because of the 'after-effects' from the LP, that way they can keep an eye out for her and take care of her when she needs it. As much as I'd like for them to live in the old lair, I think it makes sense for them to stay at the loft. Also I can't wait to see the conversation that leads to Oliver and Felicity deciding to live together :') Link to comment
catrox14 August 14, 2015 Share August 14, 2015 (edited) Could they move back into the Queen estate? Maybe even move the lair under the mansion? Just a midnight, heat induced, unable to sleep thought bubble. Edited August 14, 2015 by catrox14 Link to comment
kismet August 14, 2015 Share August 14, 2015 Having a FB love interest that is unhealthy will let them bring back the manwhore Oliver Queen and will also let them be subtle in the present with OQ/FS so as not to freak out those who don't like Olicity while they show that it's a much healthier Oliver in a healthier relationship in the present. At least, that's what they seem to be trying for. It doesn't always translate to that on the screen. Except he won't be manwhoring if he's in a relationship...but I am interested in how their experiment is going to work out. I think its a risky story tactic to try paralleling 2 relationships simultaneously, I hope it translates better than whatever their plan was last year. At least it might make the FB actually relevant again as a weekly part of the show. Link to comment
kismet August 14, 2015 Share August 14, 2015 Hmm y'know thinking about it, I can definitely see Oliver and Felicity living with Thea because of the 'after-effects' from the LP, that way they can keep an eye out for her and take care of her when she needs it. As much as I'd like for them to live in the old lair, I think it makes sense for them to stay at the loft. Also I can't wait to see the conversation that leads to Oliver and Felicity deciding to live together :') Might make sense for them to stay with Thea for LP aftereffects reasons. It's probably just a temporary living situation anyway. I just need them to have a private bedroom for sexy times. I think them living with Thea has more story potential for the first part of the season. From a set/BTS perspective, I am curious when they do get their own place, because it will be interesting to see what the set designers convert to being the new home. Sadly, I don't think we will get to see that conversation. It probably happened during the hiatus & thus will remain buried with all the fun times TA has together in previous hiatuses. From the hints dropped, it seems like we will open s4 with O/F already living together (likely in CoastCity). So it will just be a done deal that they live together when they return to SC. Link to comment
apinknightmare August 14, 2015 Share August 14, 2015 Could they move back into the Queen estate? Maybe even move the lair under the mansion? No, it got burned down in the 2.5 comics. Link to comment
tv echo August 14, 2015 Share August 14, 2015 (edited) I'm now thinking that Oliver's flashback love interest will not turn out to be a baddie who betrays him. I think she'll be Oliver's first attempt to have a relationship with a "co-worker" while he's also involved in missions. Present day Oliver will be trying to have a personal relationship with someone he works with, while still fighting bad guys, without going down the dark path he was on before. Maybe in the flashback, he failed and descended further into darkness, which either ended his relationship with her or resulted in her death somehow. That's how the flashback love story would parallel or potentially contrast with Oliver's relationship with Felicity. Edited August 14, 2015 by tv echo Link to comment
dtissagirl August 14, 2015 Share August 14, 2015 I think you might have a point, @tv-echo, I just wish they wouldn't fridge another woman to advance Oliver's manpain. It's not interesting storytelling, it's just unpleasant to watch. 3 Link to comment
tv echo August 14, 2015 Share August 14, 2015 They could just have her walk away from Oliver, leaving her alive and options open to having her show up in present day in future seasons. Link to comment
apinknightmare August 14, 2015 Share August 14, 2015 They could just have her walk away from Oliver, leaving her alive and options open to having her show up in present day in future seasons. I don't want her to die, but I'd rather her betray him or have the relationship end on a sour note to save us any future love triangle drama. No thank you. 14 Link to comment
dtissagirl August 14, 2015 Share August 14, 2015 Betrayal would be preferable to me too. I think I would be okay with her dying, if she tries to kill Oliver and he ends up killing her instead. It'd be still killing a woman he had a relationship with to advance his own storyline, but at least it would be different from the typical execution style deaths this show likes. 3 Link to comment
Balaclava August 14, 2015 Share August 14, 2015 Regarding Anarky, i think that what MG means by the "evolution of a bad guy, the evolution of a villain" is that we'll get to see Anarky go from Lonnie Machin (a teenager/young guy that originally had no tragic past, a loner and an incredibly bright person who wants to set the world right) to MoneySpider (a hacker that steels money from corporations to give it to those who need it more,very single minded in his goals) to finally Anarky (a martial arts expert, an anarchist/atheist with a anti-government, anti-corporate agenda) I have no clear idea what MG is going to do with the character, i do know that he's not a full out villain neither he's a hero. Anarky is a very complex character that i'm actually very excited to see on Arrow, i've been waiting for him since season 1. I hope they do justice to the character. 1 Link to comment
tarotx August 14, 2015 Share August 14, 2015 (edited) Yeah that would parallel but it was kind of what he had with Shado. The working together and potential frig. Her choosing to leave could get him to belive he doesn't deserve the girl though I think they may go with a Parallel to Olicity's first date distracting. This time causing Oliver's FB mission to be compromised and innocents injured. Though I guess that is what should have been the Flashback story last season. Whatever the case an Oliver getting into a relationship with a good girl really does nail tight the lid of the coffin that the Oliver&Laurel relationship has laid in since the end of s1. Imo. Edited August 14, 2015 by tarotx 1 Link to comment
kismet August 14, 2015 Share August 14, 2015 (edited) I can understand the above theory & rationales that the FB LI (I wish we had a name already) can be not bad & rather OQ's attempt at a healthy relationship with a co-worker that ends tragically. That is a viable theory. Although I'm really not on-board with another not bad person dying for or because of OQ. I think they've gone to that well enough (Robert, Shado, Moira, Sara x3, Tommy, Akio, Slade, even himself). I think his death for growth card is full. I don't know if I want OQ directly or even indirectly responsible for her death regardless of whether she is good or bad, I don't really want to see OQ killing a former friend/ally again. That is why I am more in favor of the girl being someone that is not good and somehow betrays OQ. The relationship can start out healthy and then move into unhealthy/darker waters. And OQ gets in too deep. I would like to see OQ dealing with someone whom he trusted but realizes she is untrustworthy and can't end the relationship because it would ruin the mission. I want to see him betrayed by a close friend. That would help parallel his present day relationship with Dig & FS. If she betrays him and then the relationship eventually ends, she could then join the bad guys. If she does betray him, than her death may not matter in terms of his character growth. I think it will be the relationship that impacts his choices. Not her death. Her death would be like Isabel or Ras, where it happens in the final episodes as part of the big causalities but has no real effect on his character growth. Tragic, but necessary death. Honestly, the depth of OQ's trust issues needs some foundation. So far, no real relationship has willingly betrayed him in the FB. Slade has been the closest one to do it in fb, but that was more the mirakuru. Edited August 14, 2015 by kismet 2 Link to comment
Angel12d August 14, 2015 Share August 14, 2015 (edited) Hmm. I can definitely see the possibility of the flashback love interest not being bad. Kind of the last relationship he had that set Oliver believing that he can't do his mission and be happy at the same time. And they could throw in how she's not the right woman for him, whereas Felicity is. But my personal preference is that she betrays him, especially as he's supposed to be getting darker the deeper we get into the flashbacks. I don't know. I'd rather he lose all his trust for people instead of just choosing his mission over love, yet again. It's so repetitive. Edited August 14, 2015 by Angel12d 2 Link to comment
apinknightmare August 14, 2015 Share August 14, 2015 I love that the new Arrow cave has a conference table. Honestly, it tickles me. 2 Link to comment
apinknightmare August 14, 2015 Share August 14, 2015 I'm honestly impressed right now. 1 Link to comment
calliope1975 August 14, 2015 Share August 14, 2015 I don't see Sally so the new Arrow Cave is a FAIL for me. Did I just miss her? 3 Link to comment
Velocity23 August 14, 2015 Share August 14, 2015 So the porshe is gonna stay in the lair? Link to comment
Chaser August 14, 2015 Share August 14, 2015 It looks underground. I wonder if it's under Palmer Tech? Link to comment
Tallis August 14, 2015 Share August 14, 2015 The whole thing has a sort of James Bond air to it. Possibly due to the luxury car in the corner. Half expect Q to be working away in there. 1 Link to comment
Starfish35 August 14, 2015 Share August 14, 2015 (edited) I don't see Sally so the new Arrow Cave is a FAIL for me. Did I just miss her? The write up said that there would be an area for Oliver to work out. Sally is likely there. Edited August 14, 2015 by Starfish35 3 Link to comment
lexicon August 14, 2015 Share August 14, 2015 Hmm y'know thinking about it, I can definitely see Oliver and Felicity living with Thea because of the 'after-effects' from the LP, that way they can keep an eye out for her and take care of her when she needs it. As much as I'd like for them to live in the old lair, I think it makes sense for them to stay at the loft. Also I can't wait to see the conversation that leads to Oliver and Felicity deciding to live together :') Conversation? Ha, I don't think so. Nobody talks about anything in this show. (Massive overgeneralisation i know, but its hard to shake that feeling.) IMO it's more likely that we'd just be presented with a fait accompli, as usual. 3 Link to comment
apinknightmare August 14, 2015 Share August 14, 2015 I don't see Sally so the new Arrow Cave is a FAIL for me. Did I just miss her? I don't think she's in that picture, but the article states that there's a workout area, so maybe she's just being coy?! It looks underground. I wonder if it's under Palmer Tech? I don't think so - there are windows on the left. Seems like it's some kind of warehouse, maybe. 3 Link to comment
calliope1975 August 14, 2015 Share August 14, 2015 The write up said that there would be an area for Oliver to work out. Sally is likely there. That was my initial assumption, but after last year's exile and neglect, I need to see her. Other than that, I actually really like it. Can't wait for the apparent conferences that will be happening at that table. They need an A/V system though to conference in the Star Labs team. Link to comment
Starfish35 August 14, 2015 Share August 14, 2015 “One of the fun things about this lair is that as opposed to one big space, where everyone would congregate, it’s now a much larger space divided up into smaller spaces,” he continues. “There is an area for Felicity [Emily Bett Rickards] to work, there is an area for Oliver to work out, and there is a garage. There are many different places we’ll continue to discover over the course of the season that give you a sense that this thing is a bit bigger than we got used to in the first three years.” I'm intrigued. Link to comment
doesntworkonwood August 14, 2015 Share August 14, 2015 I'm not a fan, but I'm pretty attached to the old and rusty lair. I wonder how they could afford that though? (And by they I mean the characters) 1 Link to comment
apinknightmare August 14, 2015 Share August 14, 2015 I'm going to take a wild guess and say Felicity bought it with Palmer Tech money. Link to comment
catrox14 August 14, 2015 Share August 14, 2015 I have to say, I'm not thrilled with it. It's too big. Too corporate. Too.....Phony Stark. So, back on the Mansion burning down, also, WTF that's a pretty big thing to put int he comics. Ugh I hate it when the show does that. Was that ever addressed in the show? I really can't remember. 2 Link to comment
apinknightmare August 14, 2015 Share August 14, 2015 No, they never addressed it. I'm guessing they didn't feel the need to since they seem to be sticking with the whole "Isabel took all the Queens assets and Oliver isn't getting them back" thing. Link to comment
Morrigan2575 August 14, 2015 Author Share August 14, 2015 It reminds me of the War Room set up in Babylon 5. I know this has been talked about for ages but after seeing the design I don't think I could buy anyone else but Felicity coming up with it. It seems like something a techy person would come up with. Unless they're going to name drop Cisco, cause I can totally see him designing it but, there's the timeline to consider, I believe Flash picks up right after the S1 finale while Arrow picks up 5 months later. I don't think I could buy Thea/Laurel or even Diggle designing it, unless it's a joint Diggle/Felicity production with Felicity handling the techy stuff/conference stuff and Diggle handling the weapons/workout stuff. 4 Link to comment
doesntworkonwood August 14, 2015 Share August 14, 2015 I'm going to take a wild guess and say Felicity bought it with Palmer Tech money. Wait... So are there two lairs? I thought Diggle, Thea and Laurel were going to already be in a lair when the show starts... Link to comment
apinknightmare August 14, 2015 Share August 14, 2015 Wait... So are there two lairs? I thought Diggle, Thea and Laurel were going to already be in a lair when the show starts... They probably are, but the only one who could maybe afford something like that is Thea, and I don't know what kind of money she had access to with Malcolm. So she could've bought it, but if I had to take a guess, I'd say the reason they had Ray sign PT over to Felicity is so that someone on the team would have deep enough pockets to fund an operation like this now that Oliver is "broke." It also doesn't make sense to me that they would design a tech area for Felicity and a workout area for Oliver when the two of them were away and maybe, for all they know, not coming back (unless that's a general tech area for a tech person, and a workout area for everyone, but MG was very specific in the interview). So I'm guessing they'll build out this new thing once O&F are back, and they'll all work from there. 5 Link to comment
Angel12d August 14, 2015 Share August 14, 2015 (edited) I think it looks great! And there are windows like it's in a warehouse somewhere, so no more underground. Plus Felicity has a raised platform like a throne, so I approve haha! No, this is really great. I don't know what I was expecting but this is beyond that so I'm impressed. I wonder if this is what O/F come home to, or they help build it. Because my first thought was that it has Felicity written all over it tbh. Edited August 14, 2015 by Angel12d 2 Link to comment
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