Dean Winchester: aka Squirrel

[trxr4kids]

I think you also have to factor in Dean's history of asking for or receiving help and the consequences that followed. In the pilot he asked Sam for help, Sam helped, Jessica died. In Home he called his dad and begged for help, he was ignored. In Faith Sam found a way to help/save him that resulted in someone else's death. In IMTOD John helped/saved him by damning himself.

I can also understand Dean's reluctance to talk to Sam about their father's death in the immediate aftermath. John and Sam had a contentious relationship, Sam was openly critical of John and Dean's relationship, sharing feelings at that point seems like a recipe for disaster.

 In season 3 he reluctantly/hopefully accepted Sam's help because he was terrified, which led to Sam working with/trusting Ruby, demon blood addiction, the last seal being broken, Sam saying yes to trap Lucifer back in the pit and Soulless Sam. In season 6 he asked anyone and everyone to help save Sam's soul, Death helped for a price. Also in season 6 Cas reveals his demon deal/purgatory soul plan is all because he wants to help Dean have a real life.

Season 7 Dean asks for and takes help from anyone and everyone, Bobby dies, Frank dies, Sam loses it, he still spends days trying to get help until he finds Emmanuel/Cas he even takes help from Meg.

So I guess for me Dean's reluctance to ask for or accept help seems understandable and even reasonable based on just those major life changing events.

In no way do I think any of these events were because Dean needed or asked for help, but I'm sure Dean does.

Edited March 2, 2015 by trxr4kids

[rue721]

I agree with you about getting the job done, but in some respects this I think also goes towards Dean being a little bit of a control freak.

 

Yes, I think that Dean definitely is a bit of a control freak. I don't remember which episode this was in or even what the circumstances were, but at one point, Sam was frustrated and said that Dean didn't trust anybody but himself. It stuck in my mind because I think Sam was basically correct about that. I think it's going slightly too far to say he doesn't trust anyone but himself, but imo he has trouble *counting on* anybody but himself.

 

But I don't think that's because he thinks that everyone else is too weak or doesn't think well enough of them or anything. He doesn't seem to make a lot of value judgments about people needing others, imo. I think that he just controls his own fear by taking action, and the more involved he can be in a situation the better he feels.

 

There are probably additional scenes that I'm forgetting, but all the nightmare scenarios that I remember Dean having are about *witnessing* something terrible and being powerless to stop it from happening. From what I remember, Dean tends to worry most about things like "this is your fault because you didn't stop it!" It also seems to really freak him out when he is in the position of witnessing something terrible happening, especially to Sam -- that's usually what kicks him into overdrive even just in MotW episodes. That's really different from Sam, who always seems much more worried about something within himself being unleashed and causing *him* to hurt others directly. I think that's why Dean is always worried about managing what's going on around himself, while Sam is always worried about managing what's going on within himself -- Dean is afraid of letting something terrible happen, and Sam is afraid of doing something terrible.

 

I think something else that fans the flames of any of Dean's control freak tendencies is that imo, he's really good at picking up on vulnerabilities (in situations, in other people, in himself, etc). He's really practiced at it because picking up on and exploiting others' vulnerabilities is a pretty key part of his work, I guess. But he apparently can't shut that part of his head off, and is *always* looking for the ways that things can go wrong or someone can get hurt, and I think that he winds himself up that way. Imo he's good at looking for an angle and anticipating where other people will try to get an angle, but that's how he ends up trying to be everyone's bodyguard. Sometimes even Crowley's ffs!

 

I look at this differently. If Sam told Dean everything was going to be alright, they'd both know it was a lie. Too much has happened since that episode. Even Dean couldn't keep to that promise, so while it was a nice sentiment, in the end, it didn't change that Dean couldn't always keep Sam safe. Sam disappeared only 100 feet or so away when Azazel took him, almost literally before Dean's eyes.

 

For me, the point isn't to hear Sam say that everything will be alright, but to hear Sam say that Dean can count on him completely. That he's 100% got Dean's back. Which is obviously the case, and which they obviously both *know* is the case at this point. But I just really would like to hear Sam literally say that out loud, because I'm neurotic. Not even trying to justify it by saying that it would mean anything within the show, because I'm not sure it would considering that it wouldn't be new information or anything. But just that I would really like to hear it. Just like I really liked hearing Dean say that same thing to Sam. Idk, guess it's my version of how many people feel about them hugging! It's just completely melt-worthy for me.

Edited March 2, 2015 by rue721

[rue721]

I think you also have to factor in Dean's history of asking for or receiving help and the consequences that followed.

 

I agree with your whole post, just wanted to add that Sam and Dean were raised to isolate themselves from everyone, and to lie to and distrust everyone.*** I don't consider it a character flaw that they struggle when they try to do that less.

 

***Or I guess not *everyone.* For Dean, everyone aside from John, and for Sam, everyone aside from Dean.

Edited March 2, 2015 by rue721

[SueB]

Yes, I think that Dean definitely a bit of a control freak. I don't remember which episode this was in or even what the circumstances were, but at one point, Sam was frustrated and said that Dean didn't trust anybody but himself. It stuck in my mind because I think Sam was basically correct about that. I think it's going slightly too far to say he doesn't trust anyone but himself, but imo he has trouble *counting on* anybody but himself.

I think it was 'Trial and Error'. I'm certain it was S8.

[DittyDotDot]

Actually it was the episode that should never be named.

[trxr4kids]

Actually it was the episode that should never be named.

I refuse to look that up, I'll be eating cookies in the corner.

[AwesomO4000]

I can also understand Dean's reluctance to talk to Sam about their father's death in the immediate aftermath. John and Sam had a contentious relationship, Sam was openly critical of John and Dean's relationship, sharing feelings at that point seems like a recipe for disaster.

 

I can see your point for a lot of your post - except I don't agree with this case. Even when Sam explained that he was trying to honor John's memory by "doing what Dad would want" - so Dean knew that Sam had begun to look at things differently after John's death - Dean still denied he was having difficulties with John's death, and instead even mocked Sam's attempts to work through his (Sam's) guilt by saying that his efforts were "too little, too late." So Dean didn't have to worry about Sam being openly critical at that point, but instead of talking about it or even admitting that he was having problems, he instead lashed out at Sam both with insults and physically. Not even Sam's admitting that Dean was right about Sam feeling guilty and that he was an emotional mess was enough to get Dean to drop his illusion of control over his feelings.

 

For me, the point isn't to hear Sam say that everything will be alright, but to hear Sam say that Dean can count on him completely. That he's 100% got Dean's back. Which is obviously the case, and which they obviously both *know* is the case at this point. But I just really would like to hear Sam literally say that out loud, because I'm neurotic. Not even trying to justify it by saying that it would mean anything within the show, because I'm not sure it would considering that it wouldn't be new information or anything. But just that I would really like to hear it. Just like I really liked hearing Dean say that same thing to Sam. Idk, guess it's my version of how many people feel about them hugging! It's just completely melt-worthy for me.

 

So, you want to hear him say it again? I can see that, but I think Sam might be a little gunshy at this point, since I'm not sure if Sam knows whether it really registered or not the last time he said it * whereas his saying that he had faith in Dean had more success and a more memorable impact.

 

* Sam has said that he has Dean's back - the exact quote was "for what it's worth, I've got your back" -  it just happened to be in a rather unmemorable episode, so I think a lot of people forget that he did. Sam was also trying again for one of his "I know this situation sucked, but we do really do more good than bad, so we shouldn't give up trying to save people." pep talks. And since Carver seems to have left that Sam by the wayside for ... whatever we got in season 8, maybe he also left "I've got your back" Sam by the wayside with him.

Edited March 2, 2015 by AwesomO4000

[trxr4kids]

I can see your point for a lot of your post - except I don't agree with this case. Even when Sam explained that he was trying to honor John's memory by "doing what Dad would want" - so Dean knew that Sam had begun to look at things differently after John's death - Dean still denied he was having difficulties with John's death, and instead even mocked Sam's attempts to work through his (Sam's) guilt by saying that his efforts were "too little, too late." So Dean didn't have to worry about Sam being openly critical at that point, but instead of talking about it or even admitting that he was having problems, he instead lashed out at Sam both with insults and physically. Not even Sam's admitting that Dean was right about Sam feeling guilty and that he was an emotional mess was enough to get Dean to drop his illusion of control over his feeling.

 

 

 

 Actually that's exactly my point, Dean and Sam are probably never going to be able to have any kind healthy dialogue about John because they're never on the same page when it comes to how they feel about him on a given day or time. Better to not share than to take the crowbar to your brother. But as always MMV

 

ETA: I'm not trying to say Dean is right and Sam is wrong in some way, I'm just saying based on past experiences it's understandable behavior.

Edited March 2, 2015 by trxr4kids

[rue721]

So, you want to hear him say it again? I can see that, but I think Sam might be a little gunshy at this point, since I'm not sure if Sam knows whether it really registered or not the last time he said it * whereas his saying that he had faith in Dean had more success and a more memorable impact.

 

I would love to hear him say it again! Dude, I even loved hearing a fake, monster version of John tell Dean that he was looking out for him in Long Distance Call. The scene at the end of Nightmare when Dean says that he'll always look out for Sam takes my breath away *every time.* It's one of my favorite scenes in the whole series. YMMV, but that stuff is just really touching to me. So of course I would like to hear Sam say he'll look out for Dean! He obviously *will* look out for him, Dean and he both already know that he will -- he already has looked out for him, in the very recent past, by capturing and curing him as a demon (rather than doing...whatever we were supposed to be afraid of Sam doing, back when he and Dean were at odds in S9). But I would still love to hear him say it.

 

One time when I really wish that Sam had said that to Dean for reasons beyond my own neuroticism was in the episode when Dean was talking about burning off his arm, etc, because he couldn't take having the Mark anymore. To me, that was Dean saying really loud and clear that he needed *relief.* I can't think of how he could have asked for help more clearly than that. So then Sam just being like, "you're tough! you can do it!" and saying he had faith in Dean's ability to hang in there really bothered me because I thought that Dean was literally saying he *couldn't.* That he *wasn't* able to stand it and "hanging in there" was feeling more like "twisting in the wind." It came off to me like Sam wasn't hearing him asking for help. Obviously they were both ultimately fine with what was actually said/done, I guess it was all for the best, but tbh I would have expected for Sam saying he had faith in Dean when Dean knew he was already in over his head to make Dean think something more like, "OK, I guess he's expecting me to do this on my own and isn't going to actually help." I would have expected that to make him feel like he was completely on his own, that Sam wasn't actually going to step in and help him. Not that Sam could have done anything that he wasn't already doing really, in practical terms. But specifically because there wasn't anything practical that he could do to offer Dean relief right then, I wish that he'd gone the route of being more comforting rather than giving him a pep talk. YMMV. It's minor and now long-past, so not to make a big ~thing~ out of it. But I do think that that would have been a good time for Sam to have said explicitly that Dean can count on him.

Edited March 2, 2015 by rue721

[7kstar]

I can see your point for a lot of your post - except I don't agree with this case. Even when Sam explained that he was trying to honor John's memory by "doing what Dad would want" - so Dean knew that Sam had begun to look at things differently after John's death - Dean still denied he was having difficulties with John's death, and instead even mocked Sam's attempts to work through his (Sam's) guilt by saying that his efforts were "too little, too late." So Dean didn't have to worry about Sam being openly critical at that point, but instead of talking about it or even admitting that he was having problems, he instead lashed out at Sam both with insults and physically. Not even Sam's admitting that Dean was right about Sam feeling guilty and that he was an emotional mess was enough to get Dean to drop his illusion of control over his feelings.

 

 

So, you want to hear him say it again? I can see that, but I think Sam might be a little gunshy at this point, since I'm not sure if Sam knows whether it really registered or not the last time he said it * whereas his saying that he had faith in Dean had more success and a more memorable impact.

 

Dean was in denial about a lot of things immediately after his dad died.  Lashing out is a natural reaction because for years all he had heard was how bad John was and suddenly doing a 180 is really difficult to take. 

 

I can get this on a personal level.  A love one died and another loved one talked about how peaceful she looked, I was furious and just wanted to smack her.  Why because behind this person's back all I heard from the loved that was still alive, some of the worst things about the person that died.  I literally saw red. 

 

So Dean's reaction was totally in line with his past and it took time for him to let it go again part of his need to control things.  Also Sam has kicked him in the gut a few times when he didn't expect it and that was Season 1, so I can really see it being difficult for Dean to let his guard down to Sam.  Besides he has the big brother gene that he just isn't suppose to express what he feels as he must protect baby brother at all cost and not look weak.

It's why I liked Dean even during season 1. 

 

Sam may say the right words but Dean's couldn't be vulnerable at that moment and I even think a bit of can I really trust you was lurking behind all of his other emotions.  So I can see him still being very cautious to trust Sam at this point especially since Asylum had shown Dean that Sam had some buried feelings toward him and he blamed himself for causing Jessica's death.

 

I can get that too, as I still to this day blame myself for my sister getting hit by a car.  Was it my fault no, but I didn't trust my gut and I didn't follow my normal pattern of holding her hand as we crossed the street.  She got hit because she ran across when she shouldn't have.  But I was the older sister and she was the baby sister at age 9.  Old enough to know better but still...she's fine and has a family.  But my point is no one can say anything to take that responsibility away from me.  Like Dean I picked it up willingly but sometimes when your hurting you just can't make sense of your own feelings and you lash out.  So I don't think it takes away from why Dean has reason not to trust Sam even though his words may say something different.  JMV

 

I don't think my opinion would be different if I had watched it live but I didn't so it might have changed some of my reactions if I had watched Season 1-3 live.

 

I think I want to see Sam trying every way he can to show Dean he is going to do everything in his power to keep him from turning dark again.  It's why this season at least I really have enjoyed Sam again.  Best of all he really gets why Dean is so scared...he's been there not just once but several times so he should understand how much Dean needs to hear it , even if Dean will never want to appear that weak, although this season he has been the most open, IMO and allowing Sam to see what is really going on with him.  I also think that is why Sam is soooooooooo freaked out.

 

ETA:  may have over shared, but sometimes I feel that sharing personal experiences helps people to understand my points that I may not be able to state otherwise.

Edited March 2, 2015 by 7kstar

[SueB]

I totally get it.  And honestly, would Sam really want to hear "and Dad says I may have to kill you"?  That's a pretty tough one to tell someone who is grieving. 

[AwesomO4000]

I totally get it.  And honestly, would Sam really want to hear "and Dad says I may have to kill you"?  That's a pretty tough one to tell someone who is grieving. 

 

This is true, but Dean didn't have to tell Sam that right off the bat. And the "too little, too late" comment was kind of harsh as well. After Sam's whole speech where he was spilling his guts about how Dean was right, Sam felt guilty, and was worried that John died thinking Sam hated him - pretty much a plea for any kind of reassurance - I think a little "I'm having a tough time of it too, Sam, but I have to deal with it in my own way," might have been nice. But maybe that's just me.

 

Also Sam has kicked him in the gut a few times when he didn't expect it and that was Season 1, so I can really see it being difficult for Dean to let his guard down to Sam.  Besides he has the big brother gene that he just isn't suppose to express what he feels as he must protect baby brother at all cost and not look weak.

 

Except for what Sam said under the influence in "Asylum," I'm not sure what you mean by "kicked him in the gut when he wasn't expecting it." The "Scarecrow" fight was mutual with Dean getting in just as many hits as Sam, and Sam apologized, came back, and concluded with "If we're gonna see this through, we're gonna do it together" (And there you go, rue721! There's another one from Sam - a little different, but pretty close. Dean sort of mocked him for that one, too). But I'll accept that Dean wasn't always sure how Sam would react, and so may have wanted to be a bit guarded at first. And I'd agree more about Dean letting his guard down, except that Sam was being pretty vulnerable himself and Dean wasn't exactly being protecting with his comments about how Sam was handling it.

 

I'm not saying that I don't understand that Dean was going through a rough time or that I don't get his reaction, I'm just saying that I understand Sam's position as well. He was feeling guilty and like crap * and was hoping at least to maybe get something - mutual grieving, some understanding, maybe even to feel a little better if he could at least help his brother, something - from Dean and pretty much what he got was accusations, silence, and maybe a punch in the nose. So I kinda felt bad for Sam too. Oh and Baby, because she didn't do anything that deserved getting wailed on. Go find a junker out there to beat up, Dean. Leave poor Baby alone. ; )

 

* And this was one of the times when the audience didn't have to guess at what Sam was thinking, because it was clearly shown by Sam and stated in the dialogue.

 

But specifically because there wasn't anything practical that he could do to offer Dean relief right then, I wish that he'd gone the route of being more comforting rather than giving him a pep talk. YMMV. It's minor and now long-past, so not to make a big ~thing~ out of it. But I do think that that would have been a good time for Sam to have said explicitly that Dean can count on him.

 

I can see this, but again, as I said before, Sam's had experience with trying variations of "we can do it" and "I have your back, Dean" where not only didn't it work to reassure Dean, but Dean got kinda pissy about it. Specifically I'm remembering multiple late season 5 incidences,* but there are likely other times I'm forgetting. Dean responded better to Sam having faith in him then - well eventually, the first few times Sam tried that it didn't work either and Dean usually just walked out, but eventually that's what worked.

 

Sam did try to reassure Dean at the end of season 2 as well, and that didn't turn out so well either. Dean seemed to respond better to Sam's saying he wanted his brother back. So I don't know. I'm thinking actually Sam being assuring isn't generally all that helpful for Dean, because unlike Sam when Dean does it, I'm thinking Dean's big brother genes won't let him accept and/or be reassured by it. Or he still has lingering doubts about Sam actually being able to do anything. I'd rather think big brother genes.

 

* I'm remembering the amulet being discarded and mockings of "the power of love" in response at the least. And other parts of "Point of No Return" Sam tried that, it got a bit ugly.

Edited March 2, 2015 by AwesomO4000

[7kstar]

I can get what Sam wanted and even needed...but Dean was falling rather rapidly after his father's death and had a burden he couldn't share.  Dean's character wouldn't allow him to share and his lashing out is in character.  He does later in his own way try to comfort Sam but it's after he's done with his own tail spinning.

 

So although many would love Dean to give Sam what he wanted or even needed, this was the one time I'm glad they didn't.  It's the tough guy or I can't look weak mixed with his own anger and doing the right thing just wasn't in the cards.

 

It also shows how much Sam was capable of understanding his brother.  He didn't fall for his act and continued to try to reach out.

 

Interesting both actors talk about that now they would have played some moments differently now that they are 10 years down the road.  I think it is also the growth of both actors that those scenes might have gone a little more complex, but I can also totally get why Dean reacted in such a negative way. 

 

A wounded animal won't always react well.  I had a cat that I know if a fire or something bad happened I most likely wouldn't be able to save because she would have attacked me instead of allowing me to comfort her.  This is how I see Dean at this moment.  His world is falling apart and he can't see reason.  So although Sam wanted, even desperately needed it, Dean for the first time couldn't give it to him. 

 

This allowed growth for Sam as well because for the first time he really had to dig deep to fight to help someone else.  He couldn't do it for his father but he could do it for Dean.  He doesn't run away, instead he sticks with it and even reaches his hurting brother.  Of course poor baby takes one of the worst beatings ever, but Dean fix her up again.  

 

Truly it wouldn't have the same impact if he had beaten up another car.  Taking his anger out on baby showed just how far out of control Dean was.  I think Sam saw that and wisely waited his time.  It's also why at this time of the show I was a brother's fan. 

 

I liked Sam and Dean...but Dean has always had a bit more for me.  I can relate to both brothers and I like complex characters.  For the first time I saw Sam being written a little more complex and not so one dimensional.  I get we won't really agree on this but this is one time I think the writer's got it right.  Shocking isn't it.  :)

 

Except for what Sam said under the influence in "Asylum," I'm not sure what you mean by "kicked him in the gut when he wasn't expecting it." The "Scarecrow" fight was mutual with Dean getting in just as many hits as Sam, and Sam apologized, came back, and concluded with "If we're gonna see this through, we're gonna do it together"

This is where but I didn't mean it, just didn't work.  Dean knew something was up, because that much anger came from somewhere and not just from some spell.  If Sam really didn't feel anything like that, it wouldn't have been so easy for the spell to use his feelings against them.

 

That's why ever time those fights happened, no one really believed that they didn't mean it.  It was a form of truth and for Dean a part of the wake up call that would really show up in Season 5 in Dark of the Moon.  Plus in Season 5, Sam admits to his anger that he really hasn't been able to let go.

 

I think if you come from families that don't fight dirty, you can't get it.  I do and have even said some pretty bad stuff in a heated argument.  It took me time to forgive and actually create a better relationship.  So I learned as a child how to figure out if my strike hurt.  If it hit, it caused a big reaction, if it didn't it slid by without a reaction.  Of course then they would return the favor.  Of course all of this was done at home and what happened at home was never to be shared outside of the family.

 

It's why people tell me I should write stories based on my family because now I spin it in a funny way.  Not when I was living it of course, but now it is a story to tell.  I just have to figure out how to change the names and keep them from figuring out who I'm talking about.  I think to a degree this is what Kripke did.  But it is fine if we just don't see eye to eye.  LOL

Edited March 2, 2015 by 7kstar

[AwesomO4000]

I can get what Sam wanted and even needed...but Dean was falling rather rapidly after his father's death and had a burden he couldn't share.  Dean's character wouldn't allow him to share and his lashing out is in character.  He does later in his own way try to comfort Sam but it's after he's done with his own tail spinning.

 

So although many would love Dean to give Sam what he wanted or even needed, this was the one time I'm glad they didn't.  It's the tough guy or I can't look weak mixed with his own anger and doing the right thing just wasn't in the cards.

I liked Sam and Dean...but Dean has always had a bit more for me.  I can relate to both brothers and I like complex characters.  For the first time I saw Sam being written a little more complex and not so one dimensional.  I get we won't really agree on this but this is one time I think the writer's got it right.  Shocking isn't it.  :)

 

Actually, I don't think we are disagreeing really. I, too, thought that this made sense for Dean's character and that the writers got it right. I was mainly explaining why I thought Sam might be having a hard time figuring out what to do to comfort / help Dean now in that Sam's track record in the past has been a little rocky in trying to figure out what is going to work with Dean. That and the situation now has a lot more potentially at stake. Whereas it was awful that they had lost their dad, there wasn't something as ominous or dangerous as the effects of the mark of Cain hanging over them.

 

Now Sam isn't just worrying over Dean's mental health in terms of grieving, but something actually physically happening to Dean through the mark. The stakes are much higher now, so I'm saying that I understand why Sam could be floundering here on how to help Dean and what to say to him, especially since the results of his efforts have been mixed in the past. I wasn't saying that what Dean did wasn't understandable; I was saying that Sam's difficulty now is understandable in light of his past experience with Dean and the fact that the stakes now are higher, and in the past under such circumstances, referencing his faith in Dean has been what was most effective. That may not be what Dean needs right now, but I can understand why Sam is floundering a l bit, and getting it a little wrong.

 

This is where but I didn't mean it, just didn't work.  Dean knew something was up, because that much anger came from somewhere and not just from some spell.  If Sam really didn't feel anything like that, it wouldn't have been so easy for the spell to use his feelings against them.

 

That's why ever time those fights happened, no one really believed that they didn't mean it.  It was a form of truth and for Dean a part of the wake up call that would really show up in Season 5 in Dark of the Moon.  Plus in Season 5, Sam admits to his anger that he really hasn't been able to let go.

 

I don't entirely disagree with you here, either. I believe I explained elsewhere - in Sam's thread I think - why Sam may have carried some deep down resentment for Dean being a "good little soldier:" because in Sam's mind that may have in some ways made Sam's road of not doing exactly what John wanted a tougher road to travel with Dean as the "good son" in comparison.

 

I was mostly disagreeing that their disagreements like those were one of the reasons why Dean wasn't sharing in season 2 - or at least I don't think they should have been -  since I think the reasons you mentioned above were more relevant.  Sam had since shown that his loyalty was with Dean and he'd even apologized for and told Dean specifically that he understood now why Dean followed John's directives (in "Something Wicked"), so for me their arguments like that didn't (or shouldn't) have entered into Dean's reactions in season 2 as much as Dean's grief, the big brother thing you mentioned, the secret he carried due to John, and his guilt over John's death. The only thing that I didn't agree with was that I didn't think Sam should have been perceived as anything but sincere there in season 2 despite what happened in "Asylum" for the reasons I mentioned above. Because even though deep down Sam had meant some of that, Sam had since sincerely said that he was sorry about it and that he understood why Dean did what he did, and for me that meant a lot and should have also to Dean. And if Dean still didn't believe Sam's sincerity after "Something Wicked", to me, that's all sorts of messed up in terms of Dean's self-esteem and/ or trust issues. Your miles may vary.

[SueB]

Ah...Supernatural. It just wouldn't BE Supernatural if these boys always knew how to have healthy conversations about bad shit.

I think S10 has been remarkable (so far) in his open Dean has been and how well Sam has been helping him.

[rue721]

That's why ever time those fights happened, no one really believed that they didn't mean it.  It was a form of truth and for Dean a part of the wake up call that would really show up in Season 5 in Dark of the Moon.  Plus in Season 5, Sam admits to his anger that he really hasn't been able to let go.

 

I think if you come from families that don't fight dirty, you can't get it.  I do and have even said some pretty bad stuff in a heated argument.  It took me time to forgive and actually create a better relationship.  So I learned as a child how to figure out if my strike hurt.  If it hit, it caused a big reaction, if it didn't it slid by without a reaction.  Of course then they would return the favor.  Of course all of this was done at home and what happened at home was never to be shared outside of the family.

 

It's specifically because they fight dirty that I never really believe that their fights mean that much, even when one of them manages to get a real hit in. I figure they're trying to win the fight more than they actually think what they're saying is true (esp Sam, because he's more likely to go more balls to the wall in any given fight imo). And even if they do mean it...I think it's sort of irrelevant because everyone knows that at the end of the day, they're still going to be brothers. Or maybe I'm too optimistic about it, but...

 

Bear with me, this will hopefully be a relatively good illustration of what I think is happening with Sam in fights. :) In real life, my mom fights dirty, and while on the one hand she has said things that I'm probably not ever going to forget, on the other hand, I know it's because she just wants to make me feel or respond a certain way, not because she thinks she's speaking the gospel truth. There are things she's accused me of or blamed me for that literally cannot be true, it's literally impossible for me to have been responsible for them. So while maybe she's divorced from reality and actually thinks I am to blame for things that no human being is capable of doing, I think that probably, she's just trying to make me feel bad or to put the scare into me because she's trying to make me do things her way. Also, since she just generally seems to assume I'm tougher than I really am, and because I don't react that much in the moment anyway, she doesn't necessarily realize when she's crossing a line and will keep going and trying to escalate things, even though in reality I'm just sitting there frozen and the fight is already over for me.

 

I think that Sam does similar. I think he tries to get a rise out of Dean, because he's pissed off or because he wants Dean to respond or to do things a certain way, etc, and he ends up escalating quickly to saying things that are pretty big exaggerations or much harsher than what he actually thinks is the truth (to drag out the same old example because it comes to mind, I can't believe that he thinks it's actually the literal truth that Dean thinks of himself as Sam's "savior" even though he claimed that in the Purge). I think that also because Dean tends to burn cold rather than hot when he's really upset, Sam will cross the line with him but not realize it until after the fact, when they're not even necessarily fighting anymore per se, but Dean brings up whatever grievance he's been chewing over since Sam mentioned it in the heat of some fight or another. I think Sam will wound Dean but not even necessarily realize it or not realize how bad it was until Dean starts picking at the scab later on (and then Sam will apologize, and Dean will half-accept it, and depending on how guilty Sam feels and how half-assed the acceptance is, they might or might not end up getting into a whole new fight about it, lol).

 

Not that I understand why Dean is so intent at picking at some of those scabs. I guess he's hoping for Sam to take back what he said or to say Dean was right after all or to apologize enough that what he said somehow doesn't matter anymore, but to be honest, you "can't un-ring a bell," and I think that there's nothing to be done but for Dean to try and let things go. If there were one thing that I wish that Dean would be better about, it's actually that -- to become better at letting things go. Not just concerning Sam (if anything, he's *best* at letting things go when they concern Sam, but "best" is relative), just in general. For his own good, because sitting alone with a glass of whiskey, ruminating over some possible mistake or accusation or grudge etc etc etc, isn't really good for anybody. What's best case scenario for doing that long term, that he'll eventually become Rufus? :P

 

FWIW, I think that when Dean tries to take responsibility for things that he didn't really have much control over or can't really be responsible for, that's just him being kind of a control freak again. Because if something is his fault, then he can do better and keep it from happening again. It's a sort of twisted way of feeling empowered imo. (Except, if something wasn't *actually* his fault, he can do anything and everything but that still won't *actually* keep it from happening again -- and that cycle is crazy-making imo). So I think there's also this sort of messed up thing where at times, Dean encourages Sam to blame him for something or put responsibility onto him for something, maybe because that at least makes it seem as though Dean wasn't completely powerless in the situation and as though Sam doesn't see him as having been completely powerless in the situation. That's what I was thinking of when Dean was trying to get Sam to blame him for Kevin's death, anyway. Open to being wrong, that's just what I thought was kind of screwed up about that.

 

I can see this, but again, as I said before, Sam's had experience with trying variations of "we can do it" and "I have your back, Dean" where not only didn't it work to reassure Dean, but Dean got kinda pissy about it. Specifically I'm remembering multiple late season 5 incidences,* but there are likely other times I'm forgetting. Dean responded better to Sam having faith in him then - well eventually, the first few times Sam tried that it didn't work either and Dean usually just walked out, but eventually that's what worked.

 

Sam did try to reassure Dean at the end of season 2 as well, and that didn't turn out so well either. Dean seemed to respond better to Sam's saying he wanted his brother back. So I don't know. I'm thinking actually Sam being assuring isn't generally all that helpful for Dean, because unlike Sam when Dean does it, I'm thinking Dean's big brother genes won't let him accept and/or be reassured by it. Or he still has lingering doubts about Sam actually being able to do anything. I'd rather think big brother genes.

 

* I'm remembering the amulet being discarded and mockings of "the power of love" in response at the least. And other parts of "Point of No Return" Sam tried that, it got a bit ugly.

 

I think a big difference between now (in S10) as opposed to earlier in the series is that imo at this point Dean actually does want Sam to take the reins. I think it was actually a huge deal when Sam said that he didn't trust Dean's judgment (in their "break up" convo in S9 after Sam found out about Gadreel/got un-possessed), and then turned out to be *correct* not to trust Dean's judgment because then Dean proceeded to flail around even more and, ultimately, to fuck himself royally (with the MoC, and just in general, he was a mess -- he even said he'd rather die than to keep becoming what he was becoming by the end there). But then, even though Dean got himself into the direst of dire straits and *definitely* couldn't be trusted -- because he became a demon ffs -- Sam *did* take the reins, and he captured Dean, cured him, and saved him.

 

I think that was sort of like the perfect storm of Dean feeling like all was lost and Sam coming through and being the hero and saving him, and it really changed Dean's perspective a lot, so that at *this point,* since being cured, I think he actually does trust Sam at least as much as (imo more than) himself and wants him to be more in charge. (And I think that Dean also is at a low point in terms of trusting himself. Understandably. I mean, becoming a demon? Yeah, I don't think he's trusting his instincts that much right now. Which is also why he's been trying to set up "kill me if..." fail safes, etc).

 

Sam is still growing into that role, imo, and finding a way to play that "authoritative" persona convincingly -- maybe primarily convincingly *to himself.* Which is what I think all that stuff very early in the season, about Sam going ~so dark~ and angry trying to find Dean, was about -- Sam taking on that persona while apart from Dean, and now needing to find a way take it on when he's around Dean, too. I think that's a lot of what Sam's arc over this season is.

 

It's fine for that storyline to be a slow burn. My bossy self just has so. many. opinions. about how and when Sam should be bossier :P

[Aeryn13]

 

Not that I understand why Dean is so intent at picking at some of those scabs. I guess he's hoping for Sam to take back what he said or to say Dean was right after all or to apologize enough that what he said somehow doesn't matter anymore, but to be honest, you "can't un-ring a bell," and I think that there's nothing to be done but for Dean to try and let things go.

 

To be honest, I wouldn`t do that either. There are things I would never let go. I also disagree on their fights or the things Sam said while under the influence. IMO Sam is like that person who is nice and polite but will tell you the actual truth when drunk or something. And after that`s happened, after you heard that truth one time, you have to know it`s always there. It just usually doesn`t come out. Sometimes, it even comes out to third-party characters when Dean is not present. That alone says to me that it`s not just about getting hits in during a fight.

 

Now Dean has already done what I`d never do, gone back for a seconds, thirds and fourths. Like I said, for me, certain "truths" come out once and game over. I might still be able to have a surface relationship with that person but I`d rather be boiled alive than to ever offer than another target or make myself vulnerable again. Because I could never not think about how they`ll file it away in another "loser" column then. So when Dean is about to do it, my response to the scene is usually "are you freaking insane?"

 

Of course I do consider "you are being weak/a coward/pathetic" to be THE worst insult you can give someone so Dean being repeatedly hit with it, makes it very bad to me. Even being called a cold-blooded monster is actually a nicer category. Just anything but weak.

 

 

 

 

I think that was sort of like the perfect storm of Dean feeling like all was lost and Sam coming through and being the hero and saving him, and it really changed Dean's perspective a lot, so that at *this point,* since being cured, I think he actually does trust Sam at least as much as (imo more than) himself and wants him to be more in charge.

 

I think it does just make him feel weak, like a failure and if he starts putting Sam on that pedestal again, just this time another one as the conquering hero, then this is a one way track to relate to Sam as he once did to John. Still have nightmarish visions about all the alpha/beta or even alpha/omega metas on the brothers where people were simplisitc wolf packs and Dean just somehow had a submissive personality. I know that`s not what you meant but I`m weary about any step in this direction on the show. I don`t think it is the other way around right now either and I don`t want it to be.

 

What Dean should do is develop confidence in himself and have that stick. Until and unless he has done that, he can`t fix his relationships with others. 

Edited March 2, 2015 by Aeryn13

[7kstar]

rue and awesome0 I don't think we are that far off of each other's opinions.  I know it took me a long time to forgive.  And I do fight self esteem issues which is understandable considering all the stuff I've dealt with.  It didn't happen over night, it took years and I did take to heart things that were said in the heat of the moment that I never should have, but that is life.  In some ways Dean is more youthful than Sam.

 

He didn't break free from John, he didn't honor his desires and instead squashed them so that Sam could have a better life.  I can get that but at one point I had enough and like Sam left.  So my problem in any argument is I see the middle and if you feel I am not holding my points it is because I believe the truth lies in the balance and that is somewhere in middle ground.  Dean is learning this slowly but he is still unable to give in to what he wants.  If that makes sense.

 

It took me a long time to forgive and to be honest if it hadn't been other people helping me to look at it differently I don't know that I ever would.  I now know how not to react, but it took me a while before I learned how to do that and first I did it all wrong and made things worse.  So I can see that behavior from both Dean and Sam.

 

Dean has had some mess up ways trying to get him to look at it differently and I think he has finally seen some of it.  I know we are seeing him trust his brother to a major degree but he also knows how awful it felt when Sam asked him to kill him if he turned evil.  So he is avoiding that all cost.

 

Dean is messed up and so far I think he is responding well to Sam's efforts.  I'm really really hopeful that next season they move to the boys fighting together against the big bads and both actors are saying that is what they want to see happen and it sounds like they have expressed it to the writers.  No spoilers because it is what they wish would happen, not what will happen.

 

I kind of think Carver has been willing to stick to his guns about the direction he wanted to go and this season has been enjoyable so if the mess of 8 - 9 can create a Dean that can let go and I agree he needs to do this, I'm all for it. 

[catrox14]

I don't think it's quite as simple as just wanting control for the sake of control or dominance in Dean's life. That's a far too simplistic reading of Dean, IMO.

 

Whether it was a completely selfish decision by Dean to save Sam with Gadreel, will be an argument for the end of time, but it certainly was partially selfish because he would have both failed in his prime directive and  he would no longer have his brother with him.  But Sam would be alive to do good again one day.  Which of those things was the primary motivation is impossible to know but regardless Sam is now faced with basically the same decision with Dean with the MoC.

 

Dean may not ever be free of the Mark. I will actually be surprised if Dean doesn't die with the Mark.   Sam admitted in About a Boy that he was glad Dean didn't stay a 14 year old even if it meant he had the Mark., but that leaves Sam with the same pressure and responsibility that Dean had in s2 and s4 and s5 if for different reasons. Cain said Dean will kill Sam, but I think it's going to be Sam having to decide about killing Dean and then Sam will really truly understand what it was like for Dean all those years after John told him the secret. 

[AwesomO4000]

In real life, my mom fights dirty, and while on the one hand she has said things that I'm probably not ever going to forget, on the other hand, I know it's because she just wants to make me feel or respond a certain way, not because she thinks she's speaking the gospel truth.

 

You have one of those too, huh? And yeah, that tactic didn't work on me any more by the time I hit about 15 or so and was completing my evolution from the Dean role in the family to the Sam role: i.e. I used to try to do whatever my mom said and more to try to please her - it didn't really work - keep the peace and look after my sister, but eventually I started arguing and sticking up for myself, and my mom, as you said, "fought dirty." But after a while her tactic just didn't work and I just focused on getting the heck out of there. And yeah, I totally get that 7kstar - the just being done with it. I felt guilty for leaving my sister behind, but she and my mom got along at least better, so I figured I gave her at least a little while before things would get bad. And I just couldn't do it anymore.

 

So yeah that's why I, too, see both Dean's and Sam's side in things, as I've done both roles myself.

 

I now know how not to react, but it took me a while before I learned how to do that and first I did it all wrong and made things worse.

 

Don't feel too bad about taking time, 7kstar, because from my experience, in the end, if someone wants to argue with you, they'll find a way.

 

but that leaves Sam with the same pressure and responsibility that Dean had in s2 and s4 and s5 if for different reasons. Cain said Dean will kill Sam, but I think it's going to be Sam having to decide about killing Dean and then Sam will really truly understand what it was like for Dean all those years after John told him the secret.

 

I think Sam got a dose of it in season 3 (not killing Dean, but being asked to let Dean die) and he didn't handle that very well, so since this is potentially worse, I'm worried for how Sam is going to handle this. Sam did a little better with the situation in season 5, but again, this is worse. And then there was the disaster of season 9, so, yeah... = me worried.

Edited March 4, 2015 by AwesomO4000

[rue721]

I don't think it's quite as simple as just wanting control for the sake of control or dominance in Dean's life. That's a far too simplistic reading of Dean, IMO.

 

I'm not sure if you're addressing what I wrote? I don't think that Dean wants control for its own sake or that he's domineering.

 

Though am open to the idea that I have a simplistic reading of the character. :)

Edited March 4, 2015 by rue721

[catrox14]

I'm not sure if you're addressing what I wrote? I don't think that Dean wants control for its own sake or that he's domineering.

 

Though am open to the idea that I have a simplistic reading of the character. :)

 

I was addressing more of the general conversation about Dean's need to control. Not any specific comment or commenter.  Sorry if that came across otherwise.

[rue721]

I was addressing more of the general conversation about Dean's need to control. Not any specific comment or commenter.  Sorry if that came across otherwise.

 

No worries, I was mostly just wondering what you were referring to that you disagreed with. Out of curiosity about your opinion, not because it seemed like a brewing argument or anything.

 

ETA:

 

I mean, I still am curious about your opinion about Dean's need to control! Ugh, sorry, so inarticulate today.

Edited March 4, 2015 by rue721

[Demented Daisy]

From the Spec w/Spoilers thread (but no spoiler here):

 

On the contrary, I think it would give him some self-worth, to realize that yes, he IS indeed strong and a good man and capable of the big things. Not the pathetic loser who can`t handle stuff and needs to be saved by the "real heroes" and/or God because he can`t hack it. That is the place of no belief in himself he already is at. 

 

I don't see this.  He told Sam, "I'm proud of us."  Not that he's proud of Sam.  He knows that what he does has worth.  He saves people.  He kills monsters.  He knows that he makes a difference, IMO, or he would stop doing it.

 

He's had some low moments, but I can't remember a time when he said that he's worthless.  Back in S3, fake Demon Dean said that he knows that Dean feels worthless, but I would argue that was Dean at his lowest.  That was his worst nightmare, so I don't give it much credence.  Others do, I understand that.  I just don't agree.

 

I think if Dean honestly believed that he was worthless, that he was a loser who can't handle the bad guys and has to be saved by others, he would have committed suicide a long time ago.  It may only be his subconscious, but somewhere in there, he knows he's a good, strong man who has value.

 

Mileage varies, of course.

[catrox14]

From the Spec w/Spoilers thread (but no spoiler here):

 

 

I don't see this.  He told Sam, "I'm proud of us."  Not that he's proud of Sam.  He knows that what he does has worth.  He saves people.  He kills monsters.  He knows that he makes a difference, IMO, or he would stop doing it.

 

He's had some low moments, but I can't remember a time when he said that he's worthless.  Back in S3, fake Demon Dean said that he knows that Dean feels worthless, but I would argue that was Dean at his lowest.  That was his worst nightmare, so I don't give it much credence.  Others do, I understand that.  I just don't agree.

 

I think if Dean honestly believed that he was worthless, that he was a loser who can't handle the bad guys and has to be saved by others, he would have committed suicide a long time ago.  It may only be his subconscious, but somewhere in there, he knows he's a good, strong man who has value.

 

Mileage varies, of course.

 

And that "I'm proud of us" was a huge step forward until he woke up as a demon, which IMO was over 9000 steps back for him.  I think his time as a demon sent him spiraling back down to not valuing himself. Hell, I would argue that even as demon!Dean he didn't value himself, he just didn't care about anyone or anything anymore including himself. 

 

So now that Cain has told him there is no cure for the Mark, that there is only "remission and relapse" all he can do is save a few people during the "Remission" phase because he fully expects a relapse into KillyMcStabberson!Dean. He's not proud of that at all and that is who he is right now. 

[Aeryn13]

I don`t even think the "I`m proud of us" was such a big moment. He was dying and - at that point - happy to do so in a non-monstrous way as he feared the MOC would turn him into. He was relatively at peace in that specific moment. But his everyday mode is IMO different now.

 

Back in Season 1 and maybe 2, I think he believed in genuinely doing good but since then only seems to think he has to do as much good as he can to even attempt in trying to balance out the scales on how bad a person he is deep down. His view of himself is abysmal. And the other characters view of him seems to be waffling at best.

 

So for me, if he could prove both to himself and to them that he is better than that, it would be positive progress. In fact, it would be the only positive progress I would accept as such. Anything else? Is the opposite. 

Edited March 29, 2015 by Aeryn13

[SueB]

I don`t even think the "I`m proud of us" was such a big moment. He was dying and - at that point - happy to do so in a non-monstrous way as he feared the MOC would turn him into. He was relatively at peace in that specific moment. But his everyday mode is IMO different now.

 

Back in Season 1 and maybe 2, I think he believed in genuinely doing good but since then only seems to think he has to do as much good as he can to even attempt in trying to balance out the scales on how bad a person he is deep down. His view of himself is abysmal. And the other characters view of him seems to be waffling at best.

 

So for me, if he could prove both to himself and to them that he is better than that, it would be positive progress. In fact, it would be the only positive progress I would accept as such. Anything else? Is the opposite. 

Emphasis mine.

 

First, "it would be the only positive progress I would accept as such" suggests that any other signs of progress are meaningless for you.  That's okay but I think you set up the writers to fail (for you) if the only way you are content with a story is if it exactly meets your criteria.  

 

I would counter a broader argument might be something to consider.  Specifically, that if Dean sees himself as a worthy human being, and that even though he has flaws, that's part of being human...then I think THAT would be real progress.  Dean was hardwired by John to a level of personal accountability and perfectionism on protecting others.  No matter what he did, it wasn't good enough. Like John's crabbing about the dirty car in "Dead Man's Blood".  Now part of this is John just being a parent.  So many parents pick, pick, pick...always trying to get their kids to be better.  Other parents praise every little success like it's a huge deal (Oh Joey! You got third place in the shoe tying contest! Let's have a celebration!).  Good parents, I would contend, provide both praise and guidance. John Winchester was a picker.  Part of it was his hyper-sensitivity to the things that go bump in the night.  If you are a hunter, you are usually going up against stuff that is more powerful than you. So you have to be faster/better/stronger/more clever than most people.  And single mistakes DO get you killed.  So....Dean comes by his sense of personal perfectionism naturally.  And reality backs it up -- you make a mistake as a hunter and people get killed. It's a part of the gig.  

 

But IMO, Dean is starting to let that go.  Just look at the three key "Dean" moments in Paint It Black:

- Conversation w/ Sr Mathais... reminder that it's easier for Dean to deal with his pain if he's on a mission.  He's always had this, but now he's CLINGING to mission. Mission is kinda all he has because physically, I suspect he's feeling like shit.  Dean used to get a great deal of pleasure out of sex/food/alcohol.  I think he enjoys those things but I don't think they give him joy like they used to.  Now his "happy" comes from the mission.  He's not being a martyr here -- he's recognizing what makes him happy and he's letting himself focus on it.  Maybe the right thing is to look for a MoC solution, but Dean thinks those chances are too remote.  So he's going to pursue his passion with the time he has left.  Sam might think that's selfish but Dean is putting his own emotional needs in the front here.

- Confession... many interpreted this as a big "Destiel" sign.  While that's always a possibility, I think what is more important is that Dean thinks he's WORTHY of something more.  That he doesn't want to die and he'd like to have deeper relationships.  As Dean said, he was always just moving forward at a high velocity.  Now he's starting to think he ought to take time with relationships.  Dean's sense of responsibility is such that I don't think he'd ever try a relationship if he thought all he'd bring someone else is pain or death.  Dean's had friends and people he cares about but no one except Sam and Cas that he's really allowed to get close with.  I think he really tried with Lisa but he thought he put her thru hell.  She had to tell him it was the best year of her life and I'm certain he didn't believe it. It doesn't really matter what others may have told him in the past, it appears NOW Dean is starting to see that he's worth having deeper relationships.  And of course that's part of why he doesn't want to die (or turn demon again).

- Car conversation - while Dean is still obviously hopeless about his future, I thought it was interesting how he was kidding around with Sam being right.  Dean has certainly admitted when he was wrong in the past but somehow this teasing/lighter version seemed better.  That Sam was right and he was wrong didn't seem that big of a deal as it was before.  Before he may have beaten himself up over insisting Sam burn the Journal and being wrong about it.  Now?  Meh.  Sam was right and he's poking fun at Sam's need to hear Dean say he was right.  I like that.  I think he's taking his mistakes less seriously.  It shows, to me, a greater acceptance of self.

 

And yes, I really did get ALL this from Paint It Black.  And I don't think I'm stretching.  I think they've been showing Dean to is changing his sense of self all year.  

Edited March 29, 2015 by SueB

[7kstar]

If Carver is doing his job...I think there are many subtle things in this season that will show how the inner struggle will allow for something better.  The key to thought is will they do this?

 

Life is a lot like onions.  You don't make the big changes and keep them, you take off a layer and think you've done it.  When bam the next issue pops up to show that you still have more work to do on that little old issue you thought you had finish with.  So you start the process once more. 

 

So if they are peeling off the layers and allowing Dean to move forward where he can truly laugh at his goofs/mistakes

and see that he does deserve more from his relationship and create new relationships I'm fine with that.

 

I just want to see the fun back in hunting and some glimmer of hope.  That is why I liked the beginning years more, because although it was dark at times, the boys had hope they could do this.  I want to see the hope come back to life.  JMV

[catrox14]

Somewhere along the line Carver decided that he needed this examination of the monster in all of us, which makes hunting said monsters a lot less clear and fun. 

[7kstar]

Hopefully season 10 will be the end of that and that with the brothers on solid footing, they can get back to the fun and hope. 

 

At least that's my story and I'm sticking with it! 

 

So there!  said in the little brother Sam's voice.  lol.  (not sure what is wrong with me today? - my weird sense of humor, perhaps.)

[DittyDotDot]

Personally, this "whose the real monster" stuff has been a theme of the show since S1. This isn't new territory, just poorly executed territory, IMO.

 

I think what's sucked all the fun out of the show is how they started taking themselves and their monsters too seriously. It's hard to find the fun in shooting ghosts in the face with rock salt when everyone is standing around crying in their beers, even the ghosts.

[Demented Daisy]

I don`t even think the "I`m proud of us" was such a big moment. He was dying and - at that point - happy to do so in a non-monstrous way as he feared the MOC would turn him into. He was relatively at peace in that specific moment. But his everyday mode is IMO different now.

 

Back in Season 1 and maybe 2, I think he believed in genuinely doing good but since then only seems to think he has to do as much good as he can to even attempt in trying to balance out the scales on how bad a person he is deep down. His view of himself is abysmal. And the other characters view of him seems to be waffling at best.

 

Where did he show that he thinks that he's a bad person deep down?

 

And where are the other characters showing that they're unsure of Dean?  I mean Dean, not the Mark of Cain.  I know that Sam and Castiel are worried about what the MoC is doing to Dean, but when have they been concerned about who Dean is, who Dean really is, deep down?  Because, to me, that's a huge difference.

 

Jodi and Charlie still seem to have plenty of confidence in Dean.  They know something is wrong, but I don't think they've changed their minds about who he is.

 

These are genuine questions, I'm not trying to be argumentative.  I'm trying to understand what you're seeing.

[SueB]

 

Where did he show that he thinks that he's a bad person deep down?

Season 2: AHBL2 - "Then maybe my life can mean something."

Season 5: Surprised he made it to Heaven

Season 7: "I am 90% crap."

Season 9: "I'm poison."

I think I could come up with two or three quotes per year if I spent more than 30 seconds on it.

[catrox14]

I'll add on to that. 

 

Black:   The "skanks" comment in Black was as much about Dean as it was Ann Marie

 

"Why would an angel rescue me from Hell"

"Why would God give a crap about me?"

"I'm not strong enough. I guess we're not the men either of our fathers wanted us to be"

"Something's always eating at me"

[Aeryn13]

 

First, "it would be the only positive progress I would accept as such" suggests that any other signs of progress are meaningless for you.

 

It`s true, I don`t particularly care about a character feeling ready to be in a relationship or stuff like that. I might accept that as the purpose in a soap opera but even then it`s pretty flimsy to me. But in a show like this where they throw epic mytharcs and world-saving around, then I`m not gonna be content with scraps from the table. Sam got the meal, I just want the same for Dean. That`s why as bad as the current MOC mytharc is written for Dean, having it is still a gazillion times better than when he only had angst. 

 

 

, I think what is more important is that Dean thinks he's WORTHY of something more.  That he doesn't want to die and he'd like to have deeper relationships.

 

Leaving aside that I don`t even understand why he would be afraid of dying right now - and I know this is because those hacks writing the scripts have not thought out even the barest logical throughline of the current story - if the above is the by-product of an actual storyline, it`s fine for me. Like the frosting on the cake. But not in lieu of the cake itself. I still want the story with an actual purpose.    

 

 

That Sam was right and he was wrong didn't seem that big of a deal as it was before.

 

Not once in the show would I have thought Sam being right about something like that (and Dean being wrong) WOULD have been a big deal to Dean. He would have to have an actually super-high opinion of himself to think he is never wrong. So I didn`t take this scene as anything other than normalcy.

 

 

Where did he show that he thinks that he's a bad person deep down?

 

A couple of reiterations of "I`m nothing but a killer" with the understanding that it is good he is a hunter so at least he can channel his bloodthirsty nature into something that can help people. Even the writers seem to think "natural born killer" who has it in his DNA because apparently they are either too stupid to understand the huge significant difference between "warrior" and "killer" or they do and think the character is just the latter. 

 

"I`m poison", "I`m 90 % crap" etc. It has been pretty consistent for the last few years in my eyes. I don`t think the character started out quite so bleakly but I do not believe he thinks he is a good person anymore. Not by a longshot.

 

 

And where are the other characters showing that they're unsure of Dean?

 

Some time back, I would have said Cas didn`t think so and he still has his moments but these days I have no idea what he really thinks about Dean anymore. I think demanding shippers did a number on their onscreen relationship because it is as everyone ran screaming from it.

 

Sam has always been hot-and-cold-guy IMO. When he thinks he is about to lose Dean, he can make quite beautiful affirming speeches how Dean is someone to be admired. On the other hand when he lets out some deep down truths, we get variations of "weak, pathetic, cowardly, deluded and selfish". 

 

And for me being called weak is THE worst insult possible. At least right now when they worry about Dean letting his inner monster out due to the MOC or something, it is nicer to the character. Being a villain still trumps being a coward.

 

Separated from all of this is of course the ongoing Flanderization of the character. He is a complete luddite, he is stupid, he is so ultra-horny all the time, he eats like a pig etc. Which I think the writers believe they write consistent character quirks but because they have never heard the words "subtlety", "nuance" and "charming", they write parodies. To be fair, that goes for all the characters, not just Dean. 

 

These days, the only watch-worhy moments are IMO badassery ones. Luckily, the MOC provides some of those. Other than that, everything is simply dreadful in my eyes. Angst and humour and plot alike.

[Demented Daisy]

Season 2: AHBL2 - "Then maybe my life can mean something."

Season 5: Surprised he made it to Heaven

Season 7: "I am 90% crap."

Season 9: "I'm poison."

I think I could come up with two or three quotes per year if I spent more than 30 seconds on it.

 

 

These things make him believe that, deep down, he's a bad person who deserves to go to Hell?  

 

I'll add on to that. 

 

Black:   The "skanks" comment in Black was as much about Dean as it was Ann Marie

 

"Why would an angel rescue me from Hell"

"Why would God give a crap about me?"

"I'm not strong enough. I guess we're not the men either of our fathers wanted us to be"

"Something's always eating at me"

 

I don't give any credence to anything Demon Dean said.  The "skank" thing is pure interpretation, IMO.

 

As for the rest of these, all I see is a person with some serious self-esteem issues.  And is it really any surprise?  It was drilled into his head from a young age, from his own father, that Sam was more important than anyone or anything.  Of course he has no self worth!  Why does that mean he's a bad person?

 

Obviously, I have completely misunderstood Dean Winchester.  He's no hero.  He's a terrible person who deserves to go to Hell because he can't do anything right, he can't save anyone, he's so toxic that he destroys everyone he's ever loved, and so on and so forth.  [/sarcasm]

 

All I see is a sad man who has tried his best, but has failed from time to time.  And he's very, very hard on himself.  But I don't see a man who believes he is rotten to the core and deserves to go to Hell.  The statements mentioned have been after one of his failures, not after a success.  It's when Dean is at his lowest, when he's going to think the worst of himself.

 

If this is who the character is, I have some serious thinking to do.  I don't want to watch a show with a main character who has zero sense of self-worth.  If he doesn't care, why the Hell should I?

[DittyDotDot]

Some time back, I would have said Cas didn`t think so and he still has his moments but these days I have no idea what he really thinks about Dean anymore. I think demanding shippers did a number on their onscreen relationship because it is as everyone ran screaming from it.

 

Personally, I've never seen Cass see Dean as anything other than a role model since the end of S5. Even before that, IMO, Cass was sort of looking at Dean for direction. Cass lost some of his faith in Dean in S5, but quickly regained it one episode later. I'd say Cass pretty much stated his belief in Dean in The Things They Left Behind where Cass comes out and refutes Dean saying he's not someone to look up to.

 

I also disagree with the idea that Sam thinks low of Dean. They are different people, with different points of view, but I've always seen Sam as looking up to Dean and trying to be more like him. But I know miles vary greatly on this point.

 

As to Dean's self esteem issues: sure he doesn't think the sun revolves around him, but I also don't see he thinks he's totally bad either. If Dean didn't think there he had any worth what-so-ever, I'd think he'd just give up and stop trying to be a better person. And for every one of the times Dean has said he's "90 percent crap", I'd say there's just as many where he's said they've done some good too. I think Dean's just able to accept he does some things he's not always proud of in order to do other things he is proud of. I've just never thought Dean was only self loathing, but has been more so lately because the plot requires him to be. But that's not all Dean Winchester is, IMO.

[catrox14]

These things make him believe that, deep down, he's a bad person who deserves to go to Hell?

I don't give any credence to anything Demon Dean said. The "skank" thing is pure interpretation, IMO.

As for the rest of these, all I see is a person with some serious self-esteem issues. And is it really any surprise? It was drilled into his head from a young age, from his own father, that Sam was more important than anyone or anything. Of course he has no self worth! Why does that mean he's a bad person?

Obviously, I have completely misunderstood Dean Winchester. He's no hero. He's a terrible person who deserves to go to Hell because he can't do anything right, he can't save anyone, he's so toxic that he destroys everyone he's ever loved, and so on and so forth. [/sarcasm]

All I see is a sad man who has tried his best, but has failed from time to time. And he's very, very hard on himself. But I don't see a man who believes he is rotten to the core and deserves to go to Hell. The statements mentioned have been after one of his failures, not after a success. It's when Dean is at his lowest, when he's going to think the worst of himself.

If this is who the character is, I have some serious thinking to do. I don't want to watch a show with a main character who has zero sense of self-worth. If he doesn't care, why the Hell should I?

Dean can lack self-worth and still be a hero. He might even know he's a hero but that doesn't mean he still thinks he's a good person. He may think he's just trying to do something worthwhile without an expectation that he'll go to heaven. To me that's pretty consistent with Deans characterization. I suppose at this point Dean is a more of an anti-hero than hero which is fine with me.

[Aeryn13]

 

Dean can lack self-worth and still be a hero.

 

I agree. I consider him a hero and a good person but that is because I have outside perspective. He`d probably be way less hard on another character that is a lot like him because he doesn`t even see the similarities.

 

It`s one reason I could never follow the "how can you love character X and not love who/what they love" argument. Very easy. I love character X but I`m still me and not them, therefore, I love what I love and do not share their likes/taste. That`s why it also doesn`t matter to me what kind of opinion the character holds of himself. I don`t need them to care for me to do so. In that way, I can get emotionally involved, completely separated from the characters. 

 

Also wouldn`t say Dean is an anti-hero, not compared to some of the characters who fit that bill for me. Maybe that time as a demon when he kinda saved Lester`s wife by not killing her and killed Lester instead (ironically saving him from becoming a demon because the deal was nullified), that was anti-hero material.    

Edited March 29, 2015 by Aeryn13

[7kstar]

These things make him believe that, deep down, he's a bad person who deserves to go to Hell?  

 

As for the rest of these, all I see is a person with some serious self-esteem issues.  And is it really any surprise?  It was drilled into his head from a young age, from his own father, that Sam was more important than anyone or anything.  Of course he has no self worth!  Why does that mean he's a bad person?

 

Obviously, I have completely misunderstood Dean Winchester.  He's no hero.  He's a terrible person who deserves to go to Hell because he can't do anything right, he can't save anyone, he's so toxic that he destroys everyone he's ever loved, and so on and so forth.  [/sarcasm]

 

All I see is a sad man who has tried his best, but has failed from time to time.  And he's very, very hard on himself.  But I don't see a man who believes he is rotten to the core and deserves to go to Hell.  The statements mentioned have been after one of his failures, not after a success.  It's when Dean is at his lowest, when he's going to think the worst of himself.

 

 

Dean is a hero.  Having low self esteem doesn't mean you don't get back up and try again.  The rotten to the core is from the time he's spent as a demon...IMO.

 

He's had plenty of people tell him that he has way too much courage and it is the root cause of him getting the MoC.  His desire to do good, to keep fighting no matter what goes on, is also very much part of his being.  People are complex and having two feeling that don't mix is often seen in people with self esteem issues. 

 

Dean hasn't run from a worthy fight, he embraces it and even though he has thought some really negative stuff about him he's had Cas, Sam, Charlie, Bobby, Jody, Ellen and the list goes on telling him that he is someone worthy.  Even Crowley told him he was worthy and not as a killer IMO.

 

I don't see Dean seeing himself as a killer but a realist that the work he does will kill him one day.  He can't cure the MoC so he wants to do as much positive stuff in the world as he can and go out swinging.  That's a hero, he's not running away and hiding hoping that Sam and Cas can fix it.

 

It's why I like Dean, he is a mixture of so many characterizations and has dealt with really dark issues that would drive most of us crazy if these issues were real. 

 

Learning to believe in yourself if hard and difficult.  I'll give this one over share example.

 

For years I thought I was stupid.  In fact my belief of how stupid I am was so strong that I couldn't get why my students couldn't do the simple things I did.  It took a lot of people trying to get me to see how smart I am.  There weren't any learning disabilities when I was growing up and all I heard way too many times is how stupid I am.  I finally believed it.  I now know I have some issues that makes it hard. 

 

In 2006 I decided to start writing stories to see if I could get over the idea that "I'm too stupid to write"  I stuck with it, and even though I have to stop and google words to figure out how to spell them and do I have the right word, I've improved a lot.  I can now write, where before I wouldn't have bothered to share my thoughts on screen, because I would be "too stupid" to do it right.

 

Now I try.  I still fail sometimes, but I try.

 

Dean is doing the same thing and I think the really important part of the last ep, was for Dean to start seeing he can ask forgiveness for what he has done and it is okay for him to believe he is worthwhile.  So for me Dean is a hero...because I get how hard sometimes it is too keep up the fight when everything in your soul tells you just quit.

 

Don't know if any of that makes any sense and luckily today we can't tell students they are stupid, we have to try to see what can we do to help them, but sometimes we still fail.

[rue721]

I would counter a broader argument might be something to consider.  Specifically, that if Dean sees himself as a worthy human being, and that even though he has flaws, that's part of being human...then I think THAT would be real progress.  Dean was hardwired by John to a level of personal accountability and perfectionism on protecting others.  No matter what he did, it wasn't good enough. Like John's crabbing about the dirty car in "Dead Man's Blood".  Now part of this is John just being a parent.  So many parents pick, pick, pick...always trying to get their kids to be better.  Other parents praise every little success like it's a huge deal (Oh Joey! You got third place in the shoe tying contest! Let's have a celebration!).  Good parents, I would contend, provide both praise and guidance. John Winchester was a picker.  Part of it was his hyper-sensitivity to the things that go bump in the night.  If you are a hunter, you are usually going up against stuff that is more powerful than you. So you have to be faster/better/stronger/more clever than most people.  And single mistakes DO get you killed.  So....Dean comes by his sense of personal perfectionism naturally.  And reality backs it up -- you make a mistake as a hunter and people get killed. It's a part of the gig.  

 

I have a different prospective on this. YMMV. To me, it seems like Dean knows how to be a team player while NOT being the boss. He's also a hard worker; he knows what he's doing, and he will just do his work to a high standard and without complaining about it. He doesn't look for opportunities to shirk, he looks for opportunities to help. And he's not a dumbass, or selfish, or lazy. In other words, he knows how to be a good "employee." That's not a sign of low self esteem imo. I don't know what to call that. Having integrity? Being a hard worker? Being responsible? I don't think it's a bad thing and the only thing I think it means about his life so far is that he's not spoiled. I do think that John was a taskmaster, but I think that making sure a child has enough self-discipline to function in the world -- where HE IS NOT IN CHARGE -- is a good thing!

 

How much that matters to someone is idiosyncratic, I guess. Someone being a hard worker is disproportionately important to me, maybe! But you know, I work in a restaurant. Someone being able to haul ass, take direction, not complain, and work well with others is pretty essential in my day to day life, and I see a character like Dean and I'm like, OK, he would be good to work with! I have respect for that guy! Meanwhile, imagine trying to work with Cas. Hahahahaha. That would be hell.

 

As to Dean's self esteem issues: sure he doesn't think the sun revolves around him, but I also don't see he thinks he's totally bad either. If Dean didn't think there he had any worth what-so-ever, I'd think he'd just give up and stop trying to be a better person. And for every one of the times Dean has said he's "90 percent crap", I'd say there's just as many where he's said they've done some good too. I think Dean's just able to accept he does some things he's not always proud of in order to do other things he is proud of. I've just never thought Dean was only self loathing, but has been more so lately because the plot requires him to be. But that's not all Dean Winchester is, IMO.

 

I agree, I think he's had some low moments, and I think he's disappointed in how his life has turned out in some ways, but at the same time, he knows he's good at what he does, and that *really, genuinely* matters to him. That's why he's trying to be out hunting right now. Because at least he can do this one thing right! Regardless of whether he's terrible in any or every other way, he *knows* he's a good hunter.

 

I actually wish he were more proactive about finding ways to ensure he doesn't (yet again) become a hellbeast who murders people, once he inevitably dies, but I'm trying to cut him some slack. SueB is probably right and he's feeling pretty shitty, physically? Idk.

[SueB]

 

These things make him believe that, deep down, he's a bad person who deserves to go to Hell?

There's clearly a difference between low self-esteem and deserving to go to Hell.  Most of the examples I provided were examples of why Dean believes he's "not good enough". That doesn't mean he was an evil/bad person, just not good enough.

 

But I think he started to believe he was less than even a "good" person after he went to Hell.  Breaking it down by Season:

 

- I think Dean didn't really believe in Hell until S2 (when he found out his Dad was there and signed up to go himself).

- I think he believed he didn't deserve to go to Hell in S3.  So, he may have had self-worth issues but I think he believed he was one of the "good guys".

- I think Hell did a real number on Dean's head.  It wasn't the breaking under torture, it was enjoying the torture he dished out to others.  Dean knows this and it eats at him, I believe.  He's not like Sam.  Sam seemed to feel he had done Hell-worthy things while alive (drinking demon blood), but that he served his time in the cage with Lucifer and could put it behind him. He still has many issues but while Hell kind of broke his brain, he didn't feel bad about what he did in the cage (or at least he's never indicated that he did).

- At first, being chosen by God in S4 made Dean feel really good.  Until he found out Angels were dicks, that he started the Apocalypse by breaking the first seal, and that all they really wanted was his meatsuit.  So the feeling of second chance got really tarnished as S4/S5 progressed.

- In S5 he expressed some surprise at being in Heaven. But he also stated that he thought maybe all the people saving made up for the bad.  So, IMO, at the end S5, I think he thought was hoping to go to the penthouse someday instead of the basement. 

- In S6, he started a downward spiral that continued on in S7. This is where he stated multiple times he was a monster and not someone fit to eat at Ben and Lisa's table.  That slicing throats was what he was good for.  I'd say it was ambiguous on where he thought he'd spend eternity.

- In S8, it seemed like he was at peace with who he was as a hunter and I'd say he probably thought he was "fighting the good fight". So, I'd say he was thinking he did "necessary killing" and didn't think he was hell-bound for it.

- In S9, I think Dean decided that what he had done to Sam, and Kevin's death had damned him. He explicitly said "I'll burn for that".  So yeah, in S9 I think Dean decided he was not just doing "necessary killing" but was in fact a bad person, deserving of going to Hell. It didn't help that he turned into a demon when he died.  That's like Exhibit A for Dean's internal mental prosecutor.  Yes, it's because of the Mark but Dean feels he deserves going to Hell IMO.  I, of course, do not REMOTELY think this is the case.  

- In S10, Dean hasn't stated anything about his soul but honestly, I think he still believes he's damned due to the Mark of Cain.  He knows that being truly evil, as in being a demon, is NOT what he wants. He's fighting it literally (versus the figurative battle that most people fight in their own internal good vs bad fight).  But unlike most people, Dean thinks it's inevitable IMO. So, he's trying to do as much good as he can until the evil takes over.  

 

It's very sad, IMO.  Dean IS a good man.  He was rash to take on the Mark but he didn't do it for personal power. He truly took it on to take out Abaddon.  THAT is why I cut him slack for everything that has happened to him.  And I think Chuck would say the same.  If, OTOH, Dean just wanted to have power so he could punish those he felt were bad, THAT would be a real issue IMO.  Intent matters.  It's why, for me at least, Sam drinking demon blood was a worse moral choice than Dean taking on the Mark.  Don't get me wrong, I think Sam knows this and atoned for it.  But Dean's rash decision has such large consequences.  Perhaps, if you factor in how Dean GOT to that mental state (tricking Sam into possession, lying to everyone about Ezekiel/Gadreel), there's more culpability for Dean than I'm suggesting.  

 

Still, people make bad 'decisions-of-the-moment' that have forever consequences all the time.  The asshole who thinks he's okay to drive and kills people in a DUI.  The person who thinks they are okay to drive even though they are exhausted and kills others in a car accident.  

 

Sorry for the long-winded response.  I hope I've cleared up my perspective. I'll bottom line it for you: I don't think Dean always believed he was deserving of Hell, I think he believed that in S9 and now thinks it's inevitable.  If he COULD be saved from the Mark, I think Dean would try and "fight the good fight" and hope he gets a shot at Heaven.  In otherwords, I think his sense of "good" vs "bad" is different now regarding how he is.  But I think he believes Hell is inevitable, no matter what he does.  Still, what makes him still a hero is he's going to go down fighting the good fight until he's completely incapable of doing so.  

Edited March 29, 2015 by SueB

[Demented Daisy]

Sue, I hope you can understand my confusion.  My initial question was in response to this:

 

 

Back in Season 1 and maybe 2, I think he believed in genuinely doing good but since then only seems to think he has to do as much good as he can to even attempt in trying to balance out the scales on how bad a person he is deep down. His view of himself is abysmal. And the other characters view of him seems to be waffling at best.

 

I asked for examples of when Dean believed that deep down, he is a bad person.  I never saw that, so I wondered what Aeryn was referring to.  So when you replied with:

 

 

Season 2: AHBL2 - "Then maybe my life can mean something."

Season 5: Surprised he made it to Heaven

Season 7: "I am 90% crap."

Season 9: "I'm poison."

I think I could come up with two or three quotes per year if I spent more than 30 seconds on it.

 

 

I thought you were giving examples of when Dean thought he was bad, not just when he had problems with his self-esteem.  I asserted that those are self-esteem issues, not "I'm a bad person" issues.

 

After Kevin died, I'd say it was his lowest moment since his return from Hell -- when he said he'd "burn for that", I did not take him literally.  Nor the "90% crap" quote.  It's all hyperbole.

 

 

There's clearly a difference between low self-esteem and deserving to go to Hell.  

 

That is precisely the point I was trying to make.

 

As for the rest of these, all I see is a person with some serious self-esteem issues.  *snip*  Of course he has no self worth!  Why does that mean he's a bad person?

 

*snip*

 

All I see is a sad man who has tried his best, but has failed from time to time.  And he's very, very hard on himself.  But I don't see a man who believes he is rotten to the core and deserves to go to Hell.  The statements mentioned have been after one of his failures, not after a success.  It's when Dean is at his lowest, when he's going to think the worst of himself.

[catrox14]

For ...science....and rue.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[7kstar]

I wanna see the work out scene that got cut!  I hope they put it on as an extra.  Badass Dean sure is a sight to behold!

[catrox14]

I'm not gonna lie. I've been working on a post that puts together all of Dean's badass moments.  And there are SO many.  On that note, go vote for Jensen in the Alpha Male Madness post....or vote for Jared...or Misha...but vote for Jensen.

Seen on Tumblr.  I am repulsed and highly desirous to see this happen...what is this show doing to me!!!?? I mean come on! demon!future!Dean...MOTHER MAY I. 

 

credit to freckleddeann on tumblr.

 

Edited April 20, 2015 by catrox14

[Iguana]

Catrox, your dedication to a scientific analysis of athletic Dean scenes is both admirable and, no doubt, completely altruistic. In the spirit of scientific cooperation (and an inability to post it myself), may I suggest you add the Dean does pull ups to get out of the crypt scene from Jump the Shark to your research material.

[catrox14]

Iguana, I agree that no study of athletic!Dean is complete without the Pull Up of Escape from Jump the Shark.  Sadly I have never been able to find a good rendering of that scene in gif format. I scoured long and hard...(30 minutes...is a long time right?) for that gif. I even tried to make one myself but it was too dark to be useful. I shall continue with my research to find a useable sample of  that critical element to the athletic!Dean study. If someone has a link to such a gif, I will gladly add it to the study

 

Thank you all for you support on this important scientific matter. :)

[Iguana]

Heh. Thanks for trying, Catrox. I hate it when reality interferes with my lustful drooling, ah, er, that is ... scientific study of a unique human specimen.

[Altered Reality]

catrox14 your dedication to scientific research and discovery is greatly appreciated :D