Dean Winchester: aka Squirrel

[Casseiopeia]

 

[MAK]

On 9/8/2021 at 5:28 AM, Aithne said:

So one random thought from my somewhat-finishing of the series... I was really surprised in season 14 when we learned that John actually used to send Dean away when he was really angry with him. I think Dean implies it wasn't even all that rare, since he assumes Sam will remember these times and interpret them as just Dean running off for a while. 

I guess it depends on the age this was happening at, but it's so vague that it's hard to even guess at what this means - what would trigger this kind of reaction from John, how long he would be told to stay away (or if it was a "I'll call you when you can come home" kind of thing), where he went or what he did during those times. It doesn't sound like he was being sent on jobs - just told to get gone for a while until John cooled off. 

Just such an odd twist on their family history. It's not something I would assume John would even want to do - it makes the family weaker when one of them is gone, particularly the older kid -  and makes their early comments in season one ("Dad never yelled at us like that." "Not you, you were perfect."), etc. seem kind of... I don't know. Like deliberate amnesia on both their parts. I didn't know what I was supposed to take away from it, beyond Dean feeling guilt as usual. Maybe it was just supposed to be an insight into how John thinks and their relationship. Like, he disciplines the kid who's most invested in the family by temporarily taking the family away - fits with the MO in Bad Boys as well, I guess.  It just seemed like a big thing to throw out there and then shut it down just as quickly. 

My own take on the "Dad would ... send me away..." is that it happened after the Bad Boys incident. I think Dean (mostly passively) fought against John training Sam too hard, because Dean knew Sam wasn't really into it. So whenever John realized that Dean wasn't pushing Sam, John would send Dean away (to Bobby, Caleb, Pastor Jim, whoever) to take over training Sam himself, to show Dean who's boss,  along with a side of punishment. And John wouldn't go easy with Sam on the physical/weapons part as well as the research. This scenario makes sense as to why Sam would think that Dean left him alone at John's mercy on purpose, taking John's side (Sam: "Man, I left that behind a long time ago. I had to."), and why Dean would feel guilty about it enough to apologize, even if he had no control at the time.

As for the "deliberate amnesia," (of the writers' mostly) everyone seems to forget John's voicemail to Dean in the Pilot, garbled, fuzzy, missing words, etc. I believe Dean was unsure of the reaction he would get from Sam (get lost/get dead) but he was there definitely because of John's voicemail. Not because he was lonely and John had left him behind. (Dean even says in Dead in the Water that he says  "..I'm the one that's been with him (John) every single day for the past two years..." Even if he was exaggerating, it doesn't show abandonment.

Don't know why they (writers and some fans) wanted to show Dean to be so weak that he couldn't survive on his own. Of course Dean *wanted* to have Sam back, to have John back, but he would have gone on, not gone begging for company.

Edited September 16, 2021 by MAK
Sorry, meant Dead in the Water

[Aithne]

4 hours ago, MAK said:

As for the "deliberate amnesia," (of the writers' mostly) everyone seems to forget John's voicemail to Dean in the Pilot, garbled, fuzzy, missing words, etc. I believe Dean was unsure of the reaction he would get from Sam (get lost/get dead) but he was there definitely because of John's voicemail. Not because he was lonely and John had left him behind. (Dean even says in Dark Water that he says  "..I'm the one that's been with him (John) every single day for the past two years..." Even if he was exaggerating, it doesn't show abandonment.

Don't know why they (writers and some fans) wanted to show Dean to be so weak that he couldn't survive on his own. Of course Dean *wanted* to have Sam back, to have John back, but he would have gone on, not gone begging for company.

Oh, I absolutely agree with this. It felt like a total retcon for Dean to say he was paralyzed with fear for hours because he didn't know what he'd do if Sam rejected him. In season one, Dean was resentful of Sam getting to go off to school, but he was living his life, going on solo hunts and meeting back up with John in between, didn't talk to Sam for two years, and hadn't lived with him for 4, etc. It's natural to have wanted his bro with him to find out if their dad was lost or dead, but the idea that Dean just would've been forlorn and adrift if Sam had rejected him is... yeah, no. Not the same Dean we saw in season one, for sure. He would've been hurt, but would've put a good face on it and gone out and gotten shit done regardless. 

ETA: I think WIWSNB is also a good example of this - he's upset that he has a poor relationship with Sam, but when he talks to John at his grave, he wants to keep this world. Sam hates him? Bummer, but he's safe and happy. Mom is safe and happy, Dean is safe and happy, Dad isn't in Hell. It's not a dealbreaker that he and Sam aren't close - he can work on that if they've got the rest. And when Sam hits him with the "I can't believe we're related," Dean's calm and resolute nevertheless. 

Edited September 16, 2021 by Aithne

[Aithne]

On 9/16/2021 at 9:36 AM, MAK said:

My own take on the "Dad would ... send me away..." is that it happened after the Bad Boys incident. I think Dean (mostly passively) fought against John training Sam too hard, because Dean knew Sam wasn't really into it. So whenever John realized that Dean wasn't pushing Sam, John would send Dean away (to Bobby, Caleb, Pastor Jim, whoever) to take over training Sam himself, to show Dean who's boss,  along with a side of punishment. And John wouldn't go easy with Sam on the physical/weapons part as well as the research. This scenario makes sense as to why Sam would think that Dean left him alone at John's mercy on purpose, taking John's side (Sam: "Man, I left that behind a long time ago. I had to."), and why Dean would feel guilty about it enough to apologize, even if he had no control at the time.

I forgot to respond to this part - there was a line from season one, about Sam doing the play Our Town. I think we have that line in one episode and then, a couple episodes later, Sam is talking about how he got yelled at for wanting to play soccer instead of learning bow-hunting (which Dean defends as important... but incidentally, did we ever see them use a bow in the series?). 

Your suggestion above, that John might've delegated some of Sam's teaching to Dean, could have put Dean in a position to make space for some of those extracurriculars (from experience, school play rehearsals can take a lot of time). He seemed quite positive and supportive about Sam's play, in contrast to John's apparent opinion of after-school activities. If he stretched the truth a little to get Sam more time for stuff like that, I could see that being a source of conflict. 

That said, he also mentioned, "I had my own stuff...", so it could be he was getting in trouble for more normal older kid issues too (which I imagine John wouldn't have cared much about except to the extent that it took him away from the family - sneaking out to see girls, to drink, etc). 

Edited September 17, 2021 by Aithne

[MAK]

On 9/17/2021 at 8:54 PM, Aithne said:

That said, he also mentioned, "I had my own stuff...", so it could be he was getting in trouble for more normal older kid issues too (which I imagine John wouldn't have cared much about except to the extent that it took him away from the family - sneaking out to see girls, to drink, etc). 

Absolutely!

IMO, being at Sonny's, gave Dean insight into a non-hunting life. Yes, it was still not "normal" -- not a mom/dad/kids type of nuclear family -- but kids mostly got to be kids. He might have been trying to chase some of that after he got back, and probably did piss off John. But, Dean also made the choice to let that life for him go forever,  *for Sam.* But I think he kind of wanted to try to change things for Sam.

I wonder if the episode in S15 (Drag Me Away From You) is before or after Bad Boys? (Did they reference a date in the episode?) At the end of the episode Dean seemed to be kinder, although not totally accepting, towards Sam's dreams for college. 

[Casseiopeia]

 

[Aithne]

So, y'all, what's the consensus about Dean and Hell vis a vis Mystery Spot?

Was Dean in Hell for sixty years after he was killed for the last time in that ep? Must have been, right? So Alastair worked on him for all that time with no luck, only to have him blip out at the end of it and not come back for decades Hell-time? Did either of them remember it when they met each other again? I'd assume not (consciously) in Dean's case, but would Gabriel have access to erase Alastair's memories?

It's wild how little we got about Dean and Alastair's interactions - the few scenes we got were strong, but it was hardly mentioned again after OTHoaP.

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, Aithne said:

So, y'all, what's the consensus about Dean and Hell vis a vis Mystery Spot?

Was Dean in Hell for sixty years after he was killed for the last time in that ep? Must have been, right? So Alastair worked on him for all that time with no luck, only to have him blip out at the end of it and not come back for decades Hell-time? Did either of them remember it when they met each other again? I'd assume not (consciously) in Dean's case, but would Gabriel have access to erase Alastair's memories?

It's wild how little we got about Dean and Alastair's interactions - the few scenes we got were strong, but it was hardly mentioned again after OTHoaP.

Since it was all a construct of Gabriel's hard-on for messing with Sam, I don't think Dean was in Hell at all. In fact I don't think any actual time passed in 'reality'.  I think if there was, there would have at least been some mention from Bobby about six months of his life being missing.

[Aithne]

12 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Since it was all a construct of Gabriel's hard-on for messing with Sam, I don't think Dean was in Hell at all. In fact I don't think any actual time passed in 'reality'.  I think if there was, there would have at least been some mention from Bobby about six months of his life being missing.

I think Gabriel definitely reset everything to the original Wednesday, so no humans would've noticed or remembered the time passing. But what I'm wondering is whether that time passed in the first place. 

I guess it's possible that it was all an illusion, though.

Edited December 7, 2021 by Aithne

[gonzosgirrl]

4 minutes ago, Aithne said:

I think Gabriel definitely reset everything to the original Tuesday, so no humans would've noticed or remembered the time passing. But what I'm wondering is whether that time passed in the first place. 

I guess it's possible that it was all an illusion, though.

I think the entire thing was an illusion, just like Changing Channels. He would have had to wipe the memories of everyone in town, plus Bobby. Even if he erased the memories, I think at least Bobby would question it being winter when he went to bed, and summer the next day.

[Bergamot]

10 hours ago, Aithne said:

Was Dean in Hell for sixty years after he was killed for the last time in that ep? Must have been, right? So Alastair worked on him for all that time with no luck, only to have him blip out at the end of it and not come back for decades Hell-time? Did either of them remember it when they met each other again? I'd assume not (consciously) in Dean's case, but would Gabriel have access to erase Alastair's memories?

I guess, looking back on it now, it does seem like what happened in Mystery Spot was all an imaginary construct by the Trickster (or rather by Gabriel) in order to teach Sam a lesson, so in that sense it never really happened -- Dean never really died and thus never went to Hell.  Although I swear that I remember when it aired, Kripke saying something in an interview about Dean going to Hell over and over again, but it has been too many years for me to remember where I read this!

The episode is vague about details like that -- unfortunately, because whether Dean went to Hell every time he died is an interesting question to think about.  At what point did the construct start, exactly, and when did it end? (And that's not the only thing that was unclear in the episode. Like, exactly what lesson was Sam supposed to be learning? "This is how awful it will be for you if Dean dies, so stop trying to save him, Sam." Really?)

But that is pretty much par for the course for Jeremy Carver, as far as I'm concerned. He had ideas that sounded as if they might be interesting, but often the longer I thought about his stories, the less sense they made. But also, I don't believe there was any thought put into what these events in Mystery Spot might mean for Dean or how they might affect him, because everything back then was all about Sam's Secret Destiny and whether or not he was going to turn EVIL.

10 hours ago, Aithne said:

It's wild how little we got about Dean and Alastair's interactions - the few scenes we got were strong, but it was hardly mentioned again after OTHoaP.

Oh, I know what you mean!  It's too bad, because I thought the relationship between Dean and Alastair was fascinating. Much more so than the one between Sam and Lucifer, even though Alastair was only in a handful of episodes, whereas Lucifer was brought back over and over again, year after year after year, long after his expiration date.

Alastair had a purpose in torturing Dean beyond just being randomly evil; he wanted something very specific from Dean -- he needed to break him in order to break the first seal. Dean, who had been "Daddy's blunt little instrument", was again used as an obedient tool, his relationship with Alastair a twisted and ugly mirror of his relationship with his father.

Another layer is the teacher/pupil aspect to their relationship. Dean tells Uriel in OTHoaP that Alastair is  "like a black belt in torture. I mean, you guys are out of your league." And Uriel responds meaningfully and chillingly, "That's why we've come to his student" --  because Dean is the one who is "most qualified". Throughout his torture, Alastair hectors Dean like a professor with a disappointing pupil, and warns him in the end, "I'll see you back in class bright and early Monday morning."

Alastair also needles Dean by implying a sexual relationship, reminding him of how they were "so close" in Hell, talking about "all the pokes and prods" there, and singing about "dancing cheek to cheek". But I think the most horrifying image of all is when he tells Dean, "I carved you into a new animal".  Alastair is the master craftsman and Dean is his creation, his work of art; he has made Dean into something new, and he tells him "there is no going back".

And even though the show seemed to want to erase the fact that Dean had gone to Hell, not even mentioning it onscreen for years, I know that Jensen never forgot. It was there in his portrayal of Dean; he knew that afterwards he could never be the same person again. It's part of what made Dean such a real and compelling character.

 

[Katy M]

11 hours ago, Bergamot said:

I guess, looking back on it now, it does seem like what happened in Mystery Spot was all an imaginary construct by the Trickster (or rather by Gabriel) in order to teach Sam a lesson, so in that sense it never really happened -- Dean never really died and thus never went to Hell.  Although I swear that I remember when it aired, Kripke saying something in an interview about Dean going to Hell over and over again, but it has been too many years for me to remember where I read this!

The episode is vague about details like that -- unfortunately, because whether Dean went to Hell every time he died is an interesting question to think about.  At what point did the construct start, exactly, and when did it end? (And that's not the only thing that was unclear in the episode. Like, exactly what lesson was Sam supposed to be learning?

I think Dean really did go to Hell. However, Gabriel/trickster set the time back and set Dean's body back (including his brain and memories), so that Sam and Gabriel (and possibly other angels and demons) are the only ones who remember it.  So, he went to hell, but he didn't go thell. It's a dichotomy.

Quote

"This is how awful it will be for you if Dean dies, so stop trying to save him, Sam." Really?)

Apparently the lesson was supposed to be stop trying to save you brother, but I'm not sure how that came across.  Sam still wanted to save him after this episode. Unless this was some kind of reverse psychology thing since we do know from later that Gabriel doesn't want the Apocalypse to happen.

 

[Aithne]

On 12/7/2021 at 10:50 PM, Bergamot said:

his relationship with Alastair a twisted and ugly mirror of his relationship with his father.

You know, as interesting as I thought this relationship was, I don't think I ever realized this. But I think you're absolutely right, down to the fact that it took precisely the amount of time Dean had been alive, as John's son, for him to be unmade/re-carved into Alastair's image. There are a couple of things that I can really see clearly, now that you've said it. 

1. His feelings for both were fundamental to his strength and motivation. Dean's admiration for John and belief in John's mastery of hunting was his bright light and hope through a tough childhood. His hatred of Alastair and dreaming of turning the tables on him was his hope through his suffering in Hell. 

2. Both offered him relief from a world of horror - John in a positive way, by teaching him to save people, and Alastair in a negative way, by coercing him to torture them. 

3. Both John and Alastair were demanding, perfectionist teachers, while Dean was a talented student who excelled under both. 

4. Both relationships involved atypical sorts of shadings for the nominal roles involved (father/son, captor/prisoner). In John's case, it was Dean as his comforter ("You shouldn't have had to say that to me, I should've been saying it to you"), his sometime coparent, and his sometime caregiver ("You took care of me, you took care of Sam.") In Alastair's case, as you mention, there's innuendo and love songs, as well as an impression of pride (telling him that he showed promise).

5. Both John and Alastair needed Dean to achieve a goal that was of critical importance to them. In John's case, this was the "save or kill Sam" directive, and in Alastair's case, this was breaking the first seal. 

Crazy. I think some things benefit from being understated (because you're right, Lucifer - and many other angels - ended up being way too overexposed, to their detriment), but man, there's a lot to mine there that was left unexplored. 

On 12/8/2021 at 10:27 AM, Katy M said:

I think Dean really did go to Hell. However, Gabriel/trickster set the time back and set Dean's body back (including his brain and memories), so that Sam and Gabriel (and possibly other angels and demons) are the only ones who remember it.  So, he went to hell, but he didn't go thell. It's a dichotomy.

This is kind of how I was interpreting it too. Like, Dean for sure doesn't remember, consciously. But I think it's a very interesting question about whether Alastair did. 

Edited December 10, 2021 by Aithne

[Bergamot]

On 12/10/2021 at 1:53 PM, Aithne said:

Both John and Alastair were demanding, perfectionist teachers, while Dean was a talented student who excelled under both.

Yes, good point. As awful as it is to think about, once he had completely broken Dean, Alastair had someone who was as dedicated and useful to him as a tool, as Dean had been to John. As you point out, in OTHoaP,  Alastair made a point of telling Dean that he had never yet disappointed him and praises his "professionalism". Even as Dean tortured him, Alastair continued to speak to him as a father/mentor figure, calling him "Son" and "Grasshopper". He actually, in a way that was really horrible to watch, evaluated and offered critiques on Dean's technique during the torture. And in the end, after Alastair escaped from the devil's trap, he appeared ready to accept Dean back into his "class" for more training. I didn't think about it before, but in Hell, even after Alastair had used Dean to break the first seal, he apparently still kept him and used him as an apprentice.

But also, as the head torturer of Hell, Alastair's technique was not just about inflicting physical pain, but also psychological torture. With his instinct for finding someone's weak spots, he deliberately chose to play the father figure with this particular victim. Look at how Alastair kept bringing up John in this episode, comparing Dean to his father and pointing out how Dean fell short. 

Alastair played upon what Chuck later referred to as Dean's "complicated relationship" with his father: Dean's desire to serve and be useful to his father, to earn his approval and affection by being a "good little soldier", because he never felt worthy of receiving his father's love just for being himself. Dean both longed for his father's love but at the same time, deep inside, resented the price he felt he had to pay to earn it. He grieved that he had, as he felt, never been good enough and had let his father down -- but he also was deeply hurt by his feeling that his father had let HIM down.

And Alastair used this against him. Reminding Dean of how he broke under torture, Alastair sneered, "Oh, just not the man your daddy wanted you to be, huh, Dean?" At the time, Dean pretends to ignore him, but he hears it and tragically accepts it, echoing it back to Castiel later at the hospital: "I guess I'm not the man either of our dads wanted me to be."

Unfortunately Dean isn't around for the conversation between Anna and Castiel earlier in the episode, when she is rebuking Castiel for asking Dean to torture Alastair, and Castiel answers her by saying that it is the will of God, his heavenly father. "The father you love," she responds to him. "You think he wants this? You think he'd ask this of you?" I wish someone had talked to Dean like this about John, but I don't know if he would have been able to hear it.

On 12/10/2021 at 1:53 PM, Aithne said:

I think some things benefit from being understated (because you're right, Lucifer - and many other angels - ended up being way too overexposed, to their detriment), but man, there's a lot to mine there that was left unexplored.

Absolutely! I have to admit, however, that OTHoaP is an episode that I have seldom re-watched, just because it is too painful to see what Dean goes through. Oh, man, that one scene, where Dean has his back turned to Alastair, and you see his face when Alastair tells him that he, Dean Winchester, broke the first seal and will be responsible for the Apocalypse -- the look on Dean's face! Oh, it breaks my heart!

Edited December 12, 2021 by Bergamot

[Aithne]

13 hours ago, Bergamot said:

I didn't think about it before, but in Hell, even after Alastair had used Dean to break the first seal, he apparently still kept him and used him as an apprentice.

But also, as the head torturer of Hell, Alastair's technique was not just about inflicting physical pain, but also psychological torture.  

Yes! He worked on Dean in the beginning to get him to that point where he broke the seal. But then, oddly, he doesn't just toss him aside and move on to the next thing - instead, he takes him on as a protege. Considering that the offer to climb off the rack in the first place was probably highly specific to the apocalypse / righteous man circumstance, this was also probably an extremely atypical outcome. No wonder he was excited to get him back. 

I agree with your comments about how Alastair utilized John's relationship with Dean to get in his head. Alastair also makes mention of how it's easier to really get inside someone in Hell - "You just can't get deep enough. Reality is too concrete up here" or some such. It makes me wonder to what extent he could bend perception and reality in Hell - presumably he had access to everything in Dean's memories to work from. I wonder if he ever appeared as people from Dean's life, and said or did things wearing their faces/voices. Or retooled memories. He had a lot of time to get creative down there. 

Edited December 12, 2021 by Aithne

[Aithne]

13 hours ago, Bergamot said:

Dean both longed for his father's love but at the same time, deep inside, resented the price he felt he had to pay to earn it. He grieved that he had, as he felt, never been good enough and had let his father down -- but he also was deeply hurt by his feeling that his father had let HIM down.

Yes, absolutely. It was apparent as early as season one in Devil's Trap, in the way he got almost aggressive with John with the "Dad, don't you let it kill me" - like, hey, time to put up or shut up and show me  that my loyalty hasn't been a one-way street all these years. I remember liking that a lot at the time, because it built on the shadings we'd seen all season in the relationship - he did as John said, yet also threw him to his corner along with Sam when they were fighting, he didn't prioritize John's revenge before the family, he even pushed back when John tried to blame him for John's own unavailability. He wasn't mindless, as Sam said under the influence in Asylum - he knew John should be reciprocating more than he was and was disappointed by him in a number of ways. He just was also able to suck it up and move on when it was better for the family to do so. He understood pretty early, I think, that just because you're hurt, that doesn't mean it's always a good time or circumstance to act on it. And I think when John was finally in a place to recognize that, it spurred him to sacrifice his life and soul for Dean - a far cry from his reaction in Faith. 

A complicated relationship for sure. 

Edited December 12, 2021 by Aithne

[gonzosgirrl]

I just don't buy that Dean's "deaths" in Mystery Spot were real, any of them. IMO it was just was it said on the label, Gabriel teaching Sam some sort of lesson in the most fucked up way possible.  If Dean had gone to Hell each time, and for the "six months" Sam believed him dead for real, there's no way "Loki" wouldn't have twisted that knife. If not after Sam first "killed" him, and then begged/bargained him to bring Dean back, then surely one of the numerable other times that one or both brothers pissed him off.  Plus he would have had to reset Bobby's life as well, since since months of his life would also have to be forgotten, as well as the hunters who knew about Sam's swath of destruction (all the monsters he killed alone during that time).  

I believe this all happened in Sam's mind, the same way the events of Changing Channels were a construct to make them accept the futility of fighting their destinies.

[ahrtee]

3 hours ago, Aithne said:

He just was also able to suck it up and move on when it was better for the family to do so. He understood pretty early, I think, that just because you're hurt, that doesn't mean it's always a good time or circumstance to act on it.

To me, the line that summed this up perfectly was in Dead Man's Blood, when Sam was ranting against John "treating them like children":

SAM
Yeah well maybe that worked when we were kids but not anymore, all right. Not after everything you and I have been through, Dean. I mean, are you telling me you're cool with just falling into line, and letting him run the whole show? (looks at Dean challengingly)
 

DEAN
If that's what it takes.

 

[Aithne]

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

 If Dean had gone to Hell each time, and for the "six months" Sam believed him dead for real, there's no way "Loki" wouldn't have twisted that knife.  

For sure. But he did that when he told Sam, just before resetting time, that Dean's soul was downstairs doing the hellfire rumba. 

Ahrtee, I agree, that's a perfect example. Personal slights or pride or whatever weren't nearly as important to Dean as the end result. Honestly, there's probably no other way than that to have a long-term working relationship with John Winchester. 

[ahrtee]

7 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I just don't buy that Dean's "deaths" in Mystery Spot were real, any of them. IMO it was just was it said on the label, Gabriel teaching Sam some sort of lesson in the most fucked up way possible.  If Dean had gone to Hell each time, and for the "six months" Sam believed him dead for real, there's no way "Loki" wouldn't have twisted that knife. If not after Sam first "killed" him, and then begged/bargained him to bring Dean back, then surely one of the numerable other times that one or both brothers pissed him off.  Plus he would have had to reset Bobby's life as well, since since months of his life would also have to be forgotten, as well as the hunters who knew about Sam's swath of destruction (all the monsters he killed alone during that time).  

I believe this all happened in Sam's mind, the same way the events of Changing Channels were a construct to make them accept the futility of fighting their destinies.

The show has always had a problem distinguishing between constructs, wiping minds and resetting entirely so something never happened.  They seem to use them interchangeably and just assume that no one will notice that something is different.

Remember when Sam and Dean met up with Walt and Roy again in Who We Are, and reminded them about the time they killed them?  No one seems to have been flustered/worried when they showed up again, alive and well.   Ash told them they had died over and over, and no one noticed/cared when they came back?  Maybe not as many people knew, but Walt and Roy obviously still had their memories.  

And when Cas wiped Lisa and Ben's minds, did he also wipe everyone's who knew the doctor that Lisa was dating (not to mention the dead body in her house)? 

And then there was the whole "My Heart Will Go On" episode where the whole world was changed because of one change in the past; and it was undone just as easily with no one except the Winchesters remembering.  So did it actually happen or not?  And if the Winchesters (together or singly) remember something, does it matter if it was real or not?  

...thoughts for a Sunday morning/afternoon (depending on your time zone.)  

 

 

 

[gonzosgirrl]

I know the plotlines didn't always make sense, especially in later seasons when lol!canon became the rule and not the exception,  but I don't think the Kripke era would've just let it go ignored if Dean had spent all those extra years in Hell. Presumably if he did, he did it without breaking, unless Gabriel was powerful enough to undo that, too. If so, then why go to all the trouble later if he could just snap his fingers and unbreak that first seal? And if he went 60 years the first time, why only 30 years the next time? Either way, that seems like a pretty big plot point to just ignore. 

[Bergamot]

6 hours ago, Aithne said:

Yes! He worked on Dean in the beginning to get him to that point where he broke the seal. But then, oddly, he doesn't just toss him aside and move on to the next thing - instead, he takes him on as a protege. Considering that the offer to climb off the rack in the first place was probably highly specific to the apocalypse / righteous man circumstance, this was also probably an extremely atypical outcome. No wonder he was excited to get him back. 

Yes, this was interesting, that he wanted Dean back. But then, Alastair was far from the only supernatural being that the Winchesters went up against, who latched onto Dean and didn't want to let him go. For example, there was Cain: "I felt connected to you right from the beginning. Kindred spirits, if you will." And Crowley: "Dean Winchester completes me." And Amara: "We're bonded.....We will become one."

From angels to demons to vampires, they were all fascinated by Dean Winchester!

 

[Aithne]

19 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

And if he went 60 years the first time, why only 30 years the next time? 

Well, why did he go thirty years instead of ten? Or instead of fifty? I'm not an expert in the field, but presumably there's a process Alastair is going through to find where he needs to poke to break him down. Some things will be effective, some won't. Some might even backfire and make him more resolute. 

So when Dean comes back for good, if Alastair's got sixty years of hands-on experience, those next thirty years can be of higher quality. I don't think it's a "if he didn't break in the first 60, no way would he break in the next 30." Even if Dean doesn't remember the first 60, the learnings Alastair got from it, if *he* remembers them, would accelerate the process the next time he got his hooks into him (literally). 

Bergamot, haha, so true. He's catnip to these supernatural creatures - although they weren't enemies, we can add Castiel and Benny to the list of supernatural creatures who ended up way more attached to him than they probably expected to be. 

[gonzosgirrl]

It just doesn't make sense to me* that they would gloss over and ignore such a significant plot point. 

* in the Kripke era. In Dabbernatural all bets are off.

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I know the plotlines didn't always make sense, especially in later seasons when lol!canon became the rule and not the exception,  but I don't think the Kripke era would've just let it go ignored if Dean had spent all those extra years in Hell. Presumably if he did, he did it without breaking, unless Gabriel was powerful enough to undo that, too. If so, then why go to all the trouble later if he could just snap his fingers and unbreak that first seal? And if he went 60 years the first time, why only 30 years the next time? Either way, that seems like a pretty big plot point to just ignore. 

Except Mystery Spot was in season 3, which is right smack in the middle of the Kripke era.  

[gonzosgirrl]

10 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Except Mystery Spot was in season 3, which is right smack in the middle of the Kripke era.  

Which is (part of) the reason why I don't believe it was real.

[ahrtee]

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Which is (part of) the reason why I don't believe it was real.

Sorry, I misunderstood your post.  But (unfortunately) I think you give Kripke more credit than I do.  

[gonzosgirrl]

6 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Sorry, I misunderstood your post.  But (unfortunately) I think you give Kripke more credit than I do.  

Oh, not in everything, but at least he didn't forget that Dean went to hell at all.  It just doesn't fit with the rest of the storyline, nor with Loki/Gabriel's character (for me). 

The most egregious Dean-related misstep in storytelling of the Kripke era for me is Castiel saying only an angel could kill another angel, and then having Dean kill Zachariah with no followup.  

Edited December 12, 2021 by gonzosgirrl

[Aithne]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

It just doesn't make sense to me* that they would gloss over and ignore such a significant plot point. 

* in the Kripke era. In Dabbernatural all bets are off.

They didn't, really. Gabriel comes out and says he's in Hell. It's just up to the viewer whether we believe him. 

[gonzosgirrl]

30 minutes ago, Aithne said:

They didn't, really. Gabriel comes out and says he's in Hell. It's just up to the viewer whether we believe him. 

I mean in the subsequent episodes.

When he said Dean was in hell, i believe that was still part of the picture he was painting for Sam.   As you said,  it's up to the viewer to decide. I just don't see them being able to resist writing at least something into the dialogue if it had happened for real.  The only person besides Gabriel who would've known is Sam, and there was never any indication  that he did. You'd think if he knew Gabriel was responsible for Dean suffering an extra 60 years of torture,  he'd want at least as much vengeance on him as on Lilith.  Or when Dean told him how time worked downstairs,  he'd have been at least a lttle horrified remembering that.  

 

Edited December 12, 2021 by gonzosgirrl

[ahrtee]

My personal opinion is that it was real.  After all, Dean was scheduled to land in hell shortly anyway, so Gabriel wasn't going against anyone or anything by sending him down earlier; and it was just because he felt sorry for Sam (or decided that Sam was becoming ruthless enough to survive without Dean, as Ruby had suggested) that he brought Dean back.  But, as an archangel, I'm assuming he has more power over time than your run of the mill angel, and so he just reset the world back 6 months.  That way he didn't have to mind wipe anyone--it just never happened at all. 

That's how the Titanic got sunk again, isn't it?  Balthazar just didn't stop it, and everything snapped back the way it had been, and only the Winchesters remembered--because Cas wanted them to.  All Gabriel had to do was go back in time to that Wednesday and stop Cal from killing Dean.  The end.  

I'd say he left Sam his memories because he wanted him to know what to expect, or maybe to punish him.  He took away Dean's memories because he didn't want to warn him of what was in store, which might change the way he reacted to being in hell (again)--either making him break more quickly or strengthen his determination *not* to break.  

And I'm pretty sure Sam would never tell Dean that he'd already been in hell for 6 months, even if he knew what that actually meant, especially since there was no gap in time anymore.  There was no reason for him to bring it up again, and if Dean didn't remember, no reason for him to mention it, either.  (It was only a few more episodes anyway before Dean wound up in hell for real.)  

ETA: We saw in Sam's final look that he was truly traumatized by the whole thing.  I can't imagine him ever mentioning it to anyone, especially since he's the only one who remembers it.  ("Oh, BTW, Dean, do you know that you were actually dead and in hell for 6 months already, but you don't remember it?"  Or, "Bobby, I tried to kill you to bring Dean back from the dead because he was in Hell, but never mind, it never happened...") 

 

 

Edited December 12, 2021 by ahrtee

[Aithne]

24 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I mean in the subsequent episodes.

When he said Dean was in hell, i believe that was still part of the picture he was painting for Sam.   As you said,  it's up to the viewer to decide. I just don't see them being able to resist writing at least something into the dialogue if it had happened for real.  The only person besides Gabriel who would've known is Sam, and there was never any indication  that he did. You'd think if he knew Gabriel was responsible for Dean suffering an extra 60 years of torture,  he'd want at least as much vengeance on him as on Lilith.  Or when Dean told him how time worked downstairs,  he'd have been at least a lttle horrified remembering that.  

Maybe, maybe not. I don't know that Sam has any idea whether it was legitimately time travel or an illusion - I don't know how he *would* find out. As for whether they could resist writing it in, meh. As much as I enjoyed the Kripke years (and I did, until season 5), the treatment on Dean-in-hell was extremely thin and perfunctory - basically, as much as they had to do to make it clear that he was responsible for the seal, and it was pretty much never mentioned again. I don't think there was a ton of interest in spending more time on it, like there was later with Hallucifer. 

Edited December 12, 2021 by Aithne

[gonzosgirrl]

Ah well, it's all head canon, either way.  One more thing that will never have a definitive answer outside of our own beliefs. 

[Katy M]

12 hours ago, Aithne said:

Maybe, maybe not. I don't know that Sam has any idea whether it was legitimately time travel or an illusion - I don't know how he *would* find out. 

The books?

[MAK]

16 hours ago, ahrtee said:

Except Mystery Spot was in season 3, which is right smack in the middle of the Kripke era.  

Also at that time, it was Loki/Trickster not an archangel, since angels weren't part of the story until after S3. 

IMO, it was all an illusion because, the demons, especially Alastair, might have had something to say if Dean kept blinking on and off the rack 100+ times, and also having Dean for 6 months (60 years) and being unable to break him. (Although that might be an argument for Dean actually having been in Hell for those 6 months, and Alastair got to practice and learned what would work best for later on.)

Of course, now at the end, we can say Gabriel the Archangel had more power, he had a plan, etc., but when the episode was written, it was just Loki playing around. 

[Aithne]

Well, that's the trouble with retroactive continuity, haha. Also see: John Winchester waltzing out of Hell when he was allegedly unbroken on the rack. (Although we just have a demonic torture master's word that he was ever on it in the first place, so maybe that's another story.) 

But yeah, I'm thinking about it from a "within-the-story" perspective. From the authors' perspective, I imagine most speculation around how prior seasons fit with later ones would be met with a "We wrote what? When?"

Edited December 13, 2021 by Aithne

[tessathereaper]

16 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Oh, not in everything, but at least he didn't forget that Dean went to hell at all.  It just doesn't fit with the rest of the storyline, nor with Loki/Gabriel's character (for me). 

The most egregious Dean-related misstep in storytelling of the Kripke era for me is Castiel saying only an angel could kill another angel, and then having Dean kill Zachariah with no followup.  

And looking at Zachariah's light and not having his eye's burnt out.

 

 

[ahrtee]

34 minutes ago, MAK said:

Of course, now at the end, we can say Gabriel the Archangel had more power, he had a plan, etc., but when the episode was written, it was just Loki playing around. 

According to Bobby, Tricksters were demigods and could create things out of thin air; but whatever happened as a result of that seemed to stay (remember the professor pushed out of the window and the slow-dancing alien).  We don't know how much power they actually had; but Sam, at least, seemed to think that the Trickster (not Gabriel) could bring Dean back:

SAM: Bring him back.

TRICKSTER: Who, Dean? Didn't my girl send you flowers? Dean's dead. He ain't coming back. His soul's downstairs doing the hellfire rumba as we speak.

SAM: Just take us back to that Tuesday—er, Wednesday—when it all started. Please. We won't come after you, I swear.

TRICKSTER: You swear.

SAM: Yes.

TRICKSTER: I don't know. Even if I could—

SAM: You can.

TRICKSTER: True. But that don't mean I should. Sam, there's a lesson here that I've been trying to drill into that freakish Cro-Magnon skull of yours.
 

And this was the point that the Trickster said that he was trying to get Sam to quit trying to save his brother, and to show him what life would be like without him (which, TBH, I would think would make Sam even more determined to save Dean than before, even without knowing about hell in more detail.)

The bottom line for me is that, yes, it's all head canon, and we can't prove things one way or another.  And the writers--even Kripke--have certainly changed/ignored/rewritten canon so many times just to make it fit whatever new idea they came up with that we can't wave one bit and say "this proves it."  *shrugs*  

  

[MAK]

9 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

And this was the point that the Trickster said that he was trying to get Sam to quit trying to save his brother, and to show him what life would be like without him (which, TBH, I would think would make Sam even more determined to save Dean than before, even without knowing about hell in more detail.)

Whether he was Loki or Gabriel, the lesson didn't make any sense. Like you say, it would make Sam more determined to save Dean. Unless that was the reason, the set up, for Sam to save Dean.

Wasn't S3 supposed to end with Sam figuring out how to void the deal? But then, the writers' strike happened and they had to change the story? Hence the weird non-continuity and the decision to make Loki an archangel. 

[MAK]

17 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

17 hours ago, ahrtee said:

Sorry, I misunderstood your post.  But (unfortunately) I think you give Kripke more credit than I do.  

Oh, not in everything, but at least he didn't forget that Dean went to hell at all.  It just doesn't fit with the rest of the storyline, nor with Loki/Gabriel's character (for me). 

The most egregious Dean-related misstep in storytelling of the Kripke era for me is Castiel saying only an angel could kill another angel, and then having Dean kill Zachariah with no followup.  

I don't like to compare traumas, because they are so personal, and I don't want to downplay Sam's pain and suffering.

But, there has always been more empathy for Sam walking back into the cage, and how horrific it must be for him, which no doubt it was. But isn't just walking into Hell horrific for Dean as well.

People tend to either forget or make light of Dean's tour in Hell. Either, "oh it was only 40 years, Sam was there 180," or he just needs to suck it up and not talk about it because it makes Sam feel bad/guilty.

AFAIK, the only time they brought up Dean's time in Hell was in the last season, when Dean was talking to Belphagor, who was apparently a fan, and Dean was ok with it. How weird is that?

[Aithne]

45 minutes ago, MAK said:

I don't like to compare traumas, because they are so personal, and I don't want to downplay Sam's pain and suffering.

But, there has always been more empathy for Sam walking back into the cage, and how horrific it must be for him, which no doubt it was. But isn't just walking into Hell horrific for Dean as well.

People tend to either forget or make light of Dean's tour in Hell. Either, "oh it was only 40 years, Sam was there 180," or he just needs to suck it up and not talk about it because it makes Sam feel bad/guilty.

AFAIK, the only time they brought up Dean's time in Hell was in the last season, when Dean was talking to Belphagor, who was apparently a fan, and Dean was ok with it. How weird is that?

I think I'll always hold it against the people involved in the show that they largely ignored this after 5.04, reducing something that lasted longer than his lifetime to the barest of mentions in order to a) confirm that Hell as a significant character experience was now going to be transferred to Sam ("your tour will make mine look like Graceland"), and b) do... whatever it was they were trying to do with Belphegor there, ten years later.

 

[tessathereaper]

2 hours ago, MAK said:

I don't like to compare traumas, because they are so personal, and I don't want to downplay Sam's pain and suffering.

But, there has always been more empathy for Sam walking back into the cage, and how horrific it must be for him, which no doubt it was. But isn't just walking into Hell horrific for Dean as well.

People tend to either forget or make light of Dean's tour in Hell. Either, "oh it was only 40 years, Sam was there 180," or he just needs to suck it up and not talk about it because it makes Sam feel bad/guilty.

AFAIK, the only time they brought up Dean's time in Hell was in the last season, when Dean was talking to Belphagor, who was apparently a fan, and Dean was ok with it. How weird is that?

Dean never had a "pain wipe" either.  Remember Castiel took away most of Sam's "hell experience", Dean never had that, he had to live with ALL, no dulling at all, no one took his pain away with virtually no support or sympathy.

 

Edited December 13, 2021 by tessathereaper

[Aithne]

1 hour ago, tessathereaper said:

Dean never had a "pain wipe" either.  Remember Castiel took away most of Sam's "hell experience", Dean never had that, he had to live with ALL, no dulling at all, no one took his pain away with virtually no support or sympathy.

And a healthy amount of "boohoos" and condemnations of how weak he was, while they were at it. Dean is tough as nails, man. Sucks that he has to be, but it's really pretty amazing. 

 

Edited December 13, 2021 by Aithne

[FlickChick]

6 hours ago, MAK said:

Wasn't S3 supposed to end with Sam figuring out how to void the deal? But then, the writers' strike happened and they had to change the story? Hence the weird non-continuity and the decision to make Loki an archangel. 

From what I've read, during S3 Sam was supposed to learn how to kill Lilith from Ruby and then kill her before Dean was dragged to hell, thus saving Dean. However, in the process, Sam "goes to the darkside" and eventually Dean would have to kill his brother or save him. Since the strike took away too many episodes to see Sam's transition, they sent Dean to hell. Enter angels to the story in order to get Dean out. Now, they decided to have Sam continue to the "darkside", become Lucifer's vessel and in order to save the world, Dean becomes Michael's vessel and fights Lucifer. Ultimately Sam and Dean take charge, jump in the hole and save the world together. But wait, more seasons...and we get the story we got.

[BabySpinach]

I've always been so impressed with how they integrated the True Vessel mythology into an existing story that was originally intended to be very different. Dean's journey mirroring Michael's and Sam's mirroring Lucifer's just fit so well. And the concept of special vessels who enhance the power of their possessors is a concept I've never encountered elsewhere, before or since.

I'll never get over how neatly Dean's dehumanizing treatment as a blunt weapon/provider, starting in season 1, carried over into an unplanned arc about him being a literal weapon. Not to mention Alistair "carving" Dean into a new animal, yet again reducing him to a tool for this twisted father figure's own purposes. 

It's kind of weird, though, that angels were never planned to be introduced. There's Hell and demons and Lucifer, yet the upstairs portion of that mythos just wouldn't exist? Where were we supposed to assume non-hellbound souls went? 

[MAK]

3 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

There's Hell and demons and Lucifer, yet the upstairs portion of that mythos just wouldn't exist? Where were we supposed to assume non-hellbound souls went? 

I don't think they mention Lucifer (and all things Biblical) before S4. Lilith was just a very old and powerful demon. She became a seal after S3?

Maybe "heaven" was like in BuffyTVS,  just a melding of incorporeal souls feeling love and warmth? Because BTVS had hell dimensions, if not Biblical "hell."

 

[tessathereaper]

11 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

I've always been so impressed with how they integrated the True Vessel mythology into an existing story that was originally intended to be very different. Dean's journey mirroring Michael's and Sam's mirroring Lucifer's just fit so well. And the concept of special vessels who enhance the power of their possessors is a concept I've never encountered elsewhere, before or since.

I'll never get over how neatly Dean's dehumanizing treatment as a blunt weapon/provider, starting in season 1, carried over into an unplanned arc about him being a literal weapon. Not to mention Alistair "carving" Dean into a new animal, yet again reducing him to a tool for this twisted father figure's own purposes. 

It's kind of weird, though, that angels were never planned to be introduced. There's Hell and demons and Lucifer, yet the upstairs portion of that mythos just wouldn't exist? Where were we supposed to assume non-hellbound souls went? 

It's kind of a shame it was wasted, because there really was an elegance to it.

[tessathereaper]

17 hours ago, Aithne said:

And a healthy amount of "boohoos" and condemnations of how weak he was, while they were at it. Dean is tough as nails, man. Sucks that he has to be, but it's really pretty amazing. 

 

Yeah it's amazing the almost psychopathetic levels of LACK of empathy Dean received.  How did the writers think that was OK?  He had people, people he LOVED, putting him down despite the fact that he barely mentioned it, came back and went RIGHT back to working and doing a damn good job.  Dean is SO damn strong and it was never really acknowledged.

 

[Aithne]

2 hours ago, tessathereaper said:

Yeah it's amazing the almost psychopathetic levels of LACK of empathy Dean received.  How did the writers think that was OK?  He had people, people he LOVED, putting him down despite the fact that he barely mentioned it, came back and went RIGHT back to working and doing a damn good job.  Dean is SO damn strong and it was never really acknowledged.

He's one of a kind. Your point about him immediately getting back to work is a good one too - I would've shrugged and not looked a gift horse in the mouth, whereas he's instantly back on the hunt to find out why this happened. 

Makes me wonder how long it's gonna be before he gets bored in Heaven and starts casting about for things to fix and problems to solve. Not long, I imagine. (Maybe the prequel ends with Dean finding out something, via watching his parents' history, that needs to be taken care of on Earth - something they never knew about during their lifetimes - and he makes himself enough of a pain that Heaven agrees to send him back / undo his death so he can handle it.)

Edited December 14, 2021 by Aithne

[ahrtee]

2 hours ago, tessathereaper said:

Yeah it's amazing the almost psychopathetic levels of LACK of empathy Dean received.  How did the writers think that was OK?  He had people, people he LOVED, putting him down despite the fact that he barely mentioned it, came back and went RIGHT back to working and doing a damn good job.  Dean is SO damn strong and it was never really acknowledged.

 

Well, just to play devil's advocate, I suppose it's *because* Dean is so strong that people just assume he's alright because he's *always* alright, and doesn't show the cracks in his armor to anyone.

Having said that, I'd think that Sam would be the one to see through that, but, of course, he had his own issues in season 4 (and 5) and probably missed a lot (or decided it was too much work to get Dean to talk about it.)  

I also think Dean's standard way of dealing with things is to keep busy and get back on the horse (and put all his trauma into a big lead box--kind of like locking Michael in the back room) until he can't ignore it any more.  But it would have been nice if the writers had actually acknowledged any of this instead of making viewers create their own head canon.