Dean Winchester: aka Squirrel

[rue721]

I see what you're saying, but I guess him trying to help people says to me that he is still trying to be a good person, even if he doesn't always do it right. I tend to see intention being nine tenths of a person. So, yeah he does things wrong at times, but I think his intentions were to do it right. Ultimately, this probably comes down to what one personally thinks makes a good person.

 

Of course YMMV, everyone is going to have a different definition of what makes a person "good." It's interesting hearing everyone's thoughts on that imo.

 

I think most everyone either has genuinely good intentions or they can at least patch together some kind of self-justification if faced with a compelling reason to do so. It's not that intentions are irrelevant, but I think they're easy to bullshit (even to yourself). Ultimately, I think what matters is whether you actually stick to your principles in practice, rather than whether or not you *want* to stick to your principles in theory.

 

Dean does stick to his principles for the most part. But at times he will do things he knows are wrong, like to torture or like having Gadreel possess Sam -- and he's been doing that often enough and with little enough provocation (with regard to the torture especially) that I have trouble squaring those choices with him being a good person. I'm not saying that to get all up on a high horse, I've also made choices where I put survival or safety or even just security over doing what I thought was right, and over much smaller stakes than demons trying to smash my loved one's heads into the concrete right in front of me or anything like that.

 

When Dean decides, "screw what's right, screw what other people want, nobody I love is going to die on me again," (like when he decided to have Gadreel possess Sam), I can empathize with that. But there's only so much you can go that course and still tell yourself that when push comes to shove you're going to do what's right, you've got to eventually admit that you're probably going to do what's best for you even if it's wrong. I think that Dean has already gotten to a place of believing/admitting that about himself, which is what I mean when I say that I don't think he's really even trying to be a good person anymore.

 

So using the notion that Alastair broke Dean by forcing him to torture, I think it's likely Alastair KNEW Dean would like it.  That makes the pain that much sweeter. So what the hell is remotely likeable about torture?? It's the power. It's "dishing out the pain for once".

 

IA. The setup in [Dean's] Hell seemed like there were only two options, to be tortured (the one "without" power) or to be torturer (the one "with" power). Once a person believes that either you're giving him pain or he's giving it to you, then I think it's probably only a matter of time before he starts trying to give people pain in order to stop receiving it himself. I think what's appealing about giving other people pain, in that scenario, is the sense of control/safety/power of not being on the receiving end anymore.

 

Do you watch The Originals? That kind of thinking -- zero sum, either you're the victim or the victimizer -- reminds me of Klaus. Thinking of Klaus, I guess I'd also expect someone to keep dishing it out even when it seems like he doesn't necessarily have to, out of fear, since he's probably going to be scared on some level that if he isn't dishing it out that he might have to start taking it again. Thankfully, Dean isn't nearly as batshit as Klaus, though! Imo that's because Dean clearly knows that all relationships *aren't* like that. His relationship with Sam isn't zero sum.

 

But WHY he's not completely sullied as a hero is he gets the "it wasn't really me" card.  He's in an altered state.

 

I have a lot of trouble cutting anybody slack for this in general, so I might be too harsh. But I don't think it works as an excuse in this case. Dean's self-aware enough to know there's a problem, but where are the precautions he's taking to minimize the effects of that problem? I mean completely concrete, mundane things he could do, like avoiding being in the same room as people he'll want to kill or not carrying weapons. And I know that there needs to be some ~story~ and so bad stuff has to happen, etc, but it just ends up looking irresponsible to me for him to be self-aware enough one minute to say that the massacre was wrong and he thinks he's a killer rather than a hunter now, and then in the next minute, for him to go near Metatron with an angel knife. I get that he goes into a "zone" where maybe he's not rational or in control over himself, but at other times he *is* rational and in control over himself and he needs to be making plans during those times to minimize the effects of his behavior when he's not lucid. If he can't do that himself, then he needs to trust Sam to make those plans for him. And that's where I think that Sam could do more to step up, but is currently still in too much denial to actually do so. And I also think that Sam isn't really up to taking charge with Dean anyway because of how their dynamic is/has always been. But not to digress.

[mertensia]

I don't think it's a zone so much as a parasite taking over (the MoC).

[Aeryn13]

I love Klaus as a character over on the Originals but he has as much in common with Dean as a fish has with bicycle IMO. Maybe I could see some parallels with Elijah, Klaus` older brother. And that guy has a ruthless side as well.

 

At this point in the show Dean has not done anything, not one little thing that makes puts his status of a good person or a hero in question. I guess I just have very different lines for that.

 

For example torture in and of itself? Sometimes it IS necessary, especially in those fictional universes they present. If an enemy was captured and needed to dish out very time-sensitive intel yet wasn`t inclined to do so? Say, the old "I have a child buried alive somewhere and the oxygen runs in in one hour and I`m not gonna tell you where, muhaha" and the good guys WOULDN`T use all necessary force, including torture? I would judge the shit out of them for that. Hope your morality is fricking worth it.

 

I also count the MOC as an altered state. If "it wasn`t really him" was a good enough excuse for Sam and a good enough excuse for Cas, I fail to see why it isn`t for Dean. He tries to control it as best as he could. So he couldn`t stop himself from going in to Metatron. I`m not gonna overly blame him for that. Cain couldn`t stop himself from much, much worse for thousands of years. And Cas and Sam KNEW Dean was hanging on a knife`s edge, he had already told them both, they had seen evidence so IMO DEAN has tried to do stuff within his capabilities to migitate the problem.

 

Apparently he told it to people who like to leave the barn door open, hope for the best and then come running and scream "OMG, what happened" when the horses run out. Thing is, Dean doesn`t have other people to tell. The problem is that usually those people? Would be Dean himself. And yes, there would probably be lots of accusations of "he is too smothering" if he heard the "I can`t control myself" and locked the other person in the room. But it would kinda get results.

 

But right now Dean can`t be Dean for himself. That`s just not possible. He can not be the guy with the supernatural problem and the Dean of Seasons 1-9.5 in trying to deal with that simulteanously. 

           

  

[SueB]

 

I get that he goes into a "zone" where maybe he's not rational or in control over himself, but at other times he *is* rational and in control over himself and he needs to be making plans during those times to minimize the effects of his behavior when he's not lucid. If he can't do that himself, then he needs to trust Sam to make those plans for him.

ITA that Dean, while still able to have rational thought, is letting himself get into situations that he shouldn't.

 

As Aeryn said:

 

But right now Dean can`t be Dean for himself. That`s just not possible. He can not be the guy with the supernatural problem and the Dean of Seasons 1-9.5 in trying to deal with that simulteanously.

and as rue721 said:

 

And I also think that Sam isn't really up to taking charge with Dean anyway because of how their dynamic is/has always been.

 

BUT....that's kinda the fascinating part for BOTH characters.  Sam is going to HAVE to take a firmer hand and Dean is going to HAVE to let him do so.  No one gets thru AA or any other major complex behavioral issue by just 'toughing it out'.  You usually need someone there to keep you in check.  And in the past, the boys have done that.  But this is different.  This is recognizing that Dean has an itch to scratch that maybe subconscious.  I do like meretensia's idea of a parasite, because as Metatron stated, it's getting worse.  I think last week's episode is the first time I recall (maybe Abbadon??) where the Mark actively glowed while Dean was hitting him.  But at the end...Sam actually DID kinda deal with the issue in a Sam-way.  He asked Dean if maybe he WANTS to do the hurting and that he has to fight it.  He's not doing a John/Dean which would be to put Dean's ass on lockdown.  He's making Dean come to the realization that he's letting himself get into bad situations and that he's going to have to fight this.  This is the second episode where Sam had the "Oh Shit!" moment when he realized Dean was off the deep end.  I personally think a little closer watching and little more of his "make Dean work thru this" approach is in the right direction. 

 

Regarding how far to push the moral code. I'm 100% convinced that a major theme of this season is for the boys to hammer out right and wrong in the complex world they live in.  It was simple for Dean when John was in charge. Monster=evil. Sam clearly was not so sure (based on his own inner sense of taintedness) and Amy.  Lenore blew the theory of all monster=evil out of the water. (Side note: Yay for Amber Bensen playing the character that was a moral game changer!).  Now...now it's even more complicated.  Sam was "my death is no bigger than any random schmoe" and Dean was "Sam lives". I must admit, I kinda love Dean and his "Sam lives" mindset. It's because as a parent, I get that instinct.  But when Dean got turned a demon... he went for "Dean lives-ish" (ish because he didn't know if Dean was a zombie, revenant, possessed meatsuit, etc...). He just knew his brother was not going to be in whatever state he was, he was going to get him back or properly put to rest.  So this season, I think "how far should we go" is the issue.  Each human life is important but if Dean's death turns him into a demon, would Sam kill a human rather than let Dean die?  It's not an equivalency anymore. 

Charlie's taunting about good guy code in the sneak peek for next week seems right up this alley.

 

 

Anyway... enough rambling.  I'm finding this a fascinating season with the role reversal and anxious to see how it turns out.

[Aeryn13]

 

He's not doing a John/Dean which would be to put Dean's ass on lockdown.  He's making Dean come to the realization that he's letting himself get into bad situations and that he's going to have to fight this.

 

But Dean already came to that realization without Sam. He said he can`t control it, at least not all the time. I`m not asking for Sam or Cas to take total responsibility, hell no, and technically I like appealing to Dean`s strength and showing a belief that he CAN make it.

 

However, at the moment it plays out like if it WAS a lifetime movie about addiction that the support person doesn`t even think so far as take the liquor or the pills out of freaking eye-sight. I mean, is this seriously too much to ask? "Do not leave Dean alone in room with bad guys" and "do not give Dean easy access to Metatron alone" are not rocket science.

 

Instead we get braintrust ideas like "Dean, would you mind talking to the teen who thinks you are a killer monster? What could do wrong, huh?" 

 

 

 

[shang yiet]

If "it wasn`t really him" was a good enough excuse for Sam and a good enough excuse for Cas, I fail to see why it isn`t for Dean.

 

 

I seem to remember some fans at another site claiming 'whitewash' time after time until the mod got tired of that term and banned it. If It wasn't a good enough excuse for Sam, it shouldn't be for Dean.

 

"Dean, would you mind talking to the teen who thinks you are a killer monster? What could do wrong, huh?"

 

Dean is capable of saying 'no, thanks, why don't someone else do it instead?' His judgement is not impaired 24/7. I suspect the real reason is Dean must be in every major scene.

 

The thing is, either Dean is capable of controlling it and just needs love, faith and pep talks from Sam and Cas or he can't and he gets locked up in a bunker while Sam and Cas run the whole show while Dean chills out. But then if Sam and Cas did that, they might be accused of not having enough faith in Dean.

[catrox14]

Instead we get braintrust ideas like "Dean, would you mind talking to the teen who thinks you are a killer monster? What could do wrong, huh?"

 

I'm really starting to wonder what the hell is up with Cas.  I mean why on earth would he ask Dean to talk to the teenager that wants him dead? And why would he put Dean in that kind of situation if there was any chance of it becoming a problem for Dean.  I'm actually less irritated with Sam in this scenario than Cas because Cas is kind of leading the judgment train. And I can't figure out if Cas still has any real affection for Dean or if he's just acting oddly becaue Dean made him promise to smite him if he turned into that thing. So every time Dean loses control, is Cas wondering if it's time to send him into the Sun?

 

I really need for Cas to tell Sam that Dean asked that of him. So much seems like it's being left on the cutting room floor.

[catrox14]

 

Dean is capable of saying 'no, thanks, why don't someone else do it instead?' His judgement is not impaired 24/7. I suspect the real reason is Dean must be in every major scene.

 

I think Dean is capable of making a choice to say no BUT Dean has a hard time saying no to Cas especially when Cas guilt trips him.  And Dean probably did feel guilty to a degree for making Claire's life more difficult temporarily.  But mostly that was a dumb scene designed to make us worry for Dean and worry what Dean would do when he doesn't have Sam around to talk him off the

ledge.

 

I need to know what exactly triggers Dean to go "Killy McStabberson".    I mean like what thing occurs during a scenario that makes it so he just can't not go there. For instance, when he slaughtered the rapey killers was it the first knock to his head that triggered compulsion because even then he still tried to warn them off and said "You don't want to do this" coupled with a pretty convincing death stare.  Then came the kick to his face which probably knocked him unconscious or maybe even killed him. Is that when the Mark flares? Does he have to be in actual mortal danger for the Mark to kick in?  He apparently has enhanced strength and speed to be able to kill 5 people as quickly as he did when the Mark is engaged but not all the time.

 

When he was beating on Marvatron, I don't think the Mark was shown to be activating, so for me, I'm not 100% convinced that was the Mark controlling Dean's behavior but was really more of Dean finally getting some payback which I have no problem with whatsoever.  If the Mark had really been amping up Dean during that scene, I don't think Sam could have pulled Dean off of him that easily because when Dean was trying to kill Gadreel in the lair it took all the combined strength of both Sam and Cas to stop Dean and even then they could barely do it.

 

Is it when the Mark thinks that Dean is really going to die that the urge to kill becomes stronger?  Is it rage, or survival? Is it some other emotion that really makes him go off?  Because if there is no way of really understanding what sets him on the kill path, then how can he ever live a life with anyone near him?  I mean gods. I can't fathom Dean going off and having to live on an isolated farm with just bees and flowers around him. That would be a fate worse than death for a social person like Dean. And he would not be able to hunt anymore because how could he risk being in a situation that would trigger it all?  The show really needs to start clarifying how exactly the Mark works. 

[DittyDotDot]

I'm thinking the Mark is always pushing Dean to some degree. I tend to equate what the Mark does with steroids. When he first took on the Mark, I think of it as a low constant dose that took time to build up in his system, but was still having minor effects on his rage control. Once he got the blade, his dosage increased and after Abaddon, I think his Mark-roids were far beyond the recommended dosage and he tipped into full-on roid rage. I think, since he's been cured and the Blade is gone, he's been back to that low constant dosage and are now built back up in his system sufficiently, but without the Blade it's mostly been manageable for Dean as long as he's not in a position where he would lose control.

 

Dean's always had propensity to suppress his emotions until they come out in fits of "violence and alcoholism". No judgment, just observation. I've always felt Dean's way was just fine and, generally, he's been smart enough to channel his anger on to something deserving. I'm guessing the Mark's trigger for Dean is anything that allows him to work out his anger through violence--like say getting some payback on Marvatron or taking out a bunch of assholes who take a young girl for payment of a debt and then try to attack him. I think Dean's going to have to either start talking about his feelin's and/or start a regimen of beating the shit out of inanimate objects. (I almost used the word healthy there, but then remembered this is Supernatural and really there's nothing healthy about that, now is there?)

 

In the end, the Mark wants a killing machine, but I'm betting its triggers aren't the same for everyone. So, I'm not sure Dean has to go Cain's route because I imagine what drove Cain isn't exactly the same as what drives Dean.  I'm not sure what Cain's triggers are exactly because we haven't seen enough of Cain to know for sure.

[Aeryn13]

 

So, I'm not sure Dean has to go Cain's route because I imagine what drove Cain isn't exactly the same as what drives Dean.

 

I`m now picturing Dean clad in an adorable little beekeeper-suit and fidgeting, being all "I`m not sure, what do you think?" to the others.  

[catrox14]

 

In the end, the Mark wants a killing machine, but I'm betting its triggers aren't the same for everyone. So, I'm not sure Dean has to go Cain's route because I imagine what drove Cain isn't exactly the same as what drives Dean.  I'm not sure what Cain's triggers are exactly because we haven't seen enough of Cain to know for sure.

 

I was thinking more of the lore of the actual Cain who wandered the earth alone and that seems to be to a degree what they had SPN!Cain do as well so as not to kill. He lived alone and threw the Blade in the ocean to stop himself and had little contact with humanity except for going to the store apparently. LOL 

 

It also seemed like last season Dean was increasingly to himself pushing Sam away after the Mark which was coupled with Sam keeping away from Dean after the whole Purge conversation so it was really kind of hard to tell if it was the Mark, fighting with Sam or both.  Maybe that is a thing that the Mark does regardless of who has it, separates the bearer from others so that it isolates them?

 

I was just thinking that I bet the number of "search the webs" has gone up significantly the Mark of Cain after SPN introduced this storyline.

I`m now picturing Dean clad in an adorable little beekeeper-suit and fidgeting, being all "I`m not sure, what do you think?" to the others.  

 

Heck no, Dean would wear that beekeeper's suit with pride and he'd be all smiles until Sam or Cas or Crowley mocks him for it.  And then he'd have to get an upgrade.

Edited January 25, 2015 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

It also seemed like last season Dean was increasingly to himself pushing Sam away after the Mark which was coupled with Sam keeping away from Dean after the whole Purge conversation so it was really kind of hard to tell if it was the Mark, fighting with Sam or both.  Maybe that is a thing that the Mark does regardless of who has it, separates the bearer from others so that it isolates them?

 

That's an interesting point, I'm not sure if his isolation was due to the Mark--it doesn't seem to be affecting him that way this season. He and Sam were on crappy terms last season and Cass off on his own mission, so I thought the isolation was born out of that. Maybe one of the "side effects" Cain tried to warn Dean about is isolation, though?

[catrox14]

That's an interesting point, I'm not sure if his isolation was due to the Mark--it doesn't seem to be affecting him that way this season. He and Sam were on crappy terms last season and Cass off on his own mission, so I thought the isolation was born out of that. Maybe one of the "side effects" Cain tried to warn Dean about is isolation, though?

 

Just one of the failures of writing or a poor way to keep a mystery going.  Give us some kinds of hints writers!

 

The thing I come back to in the dialogue with Cain when Dean to on the mark was

 

CAIN: Yes. But you have to know with the mark comes a great burden. Some would call it a great cost.

 

What was/is that 'great cost'? To me that is some rather specific dialogue that seems like a pretty big deal.

 

Is the great burden isolation? Loss of family and friends? The loss of one's humanity? Was the "great cost" Dean's life? Was it losing one's soul and becoming a demon? Did Cain know Dean would become a demon?

Edited January 25, 2015 by catrox14

[rue721]

Dean sure didn't become less isolated from Crowley. I think he did have more trouble getting along with people, though. Even when he's just pretending to be FBI, he's become more liable to get tetchy or to stumble along not really able to connect with the person they're interviewing.

 

Heck no, Dean would wear that beekeeper's suit with pride and he'd be all smiles until Sam or Cas or Crowley mocks him for it.  And then he'd have to get an upgrade.

 

LOL I'm trying to imagine what an upgrade to a beekeeper's suit would even be?

 

I'm thinking the Mark is always pushing Dean to some degree.

 

I agree, I think it's always pushing him. Like when he wanted to go get the Blade on Metatron's say-so. And I don't think pre-Mark!Dean would have shut himself in with Metatron like that, either. Last episode, he was struggling to act like himself all the time (the weird eating, etc), even when he wasn't getting violent. I think that the Mark's needs are shaping his desires and somewhat shaping his personality at this point, all the time.

 

CAIN: Yes. But you have to know with the mark comes a great burden. Some would call it a great cost.

 

"Burden" sounds like a responsibility to me. But I'm not sure what greater responsibility Dean has now because of the Mark.

 

Maybe he'll have to take it on once he kills Cain? Maybe Cain is trying to tie up the loose ends related to his portion of the "watch" over that job, and once he's ready for Dean to take over for him, he'll call on Dean to kill him?

[DittyDotDot]

The thing I come back to in the dialogue with Cain when Dean to on the mark was

 

CAIN: Yes. But you have to know with the mark comes a great burden. Some would call it a great cost.

 

What was/is that 'great cost'? To me that is some rather specific dialogue that seems like a pretty big deal.

 

Is the great burden isolation? Cost of family and friends? Was it the loss of one's humanity? Was the "great cost" Dean's life? Was it losing one's soul and becoming a demon? Did Cain know Dean would become a demon?

 

Sorry, "side effect" wasn't really apt, but I couldn't remember Cain's actual words there. I suspect Cain knew he could (not necessarily would) become a demon--it happened to him after all. But he may have had many different things that could all be the burden. It should be interesting when we get to the Cain episode and I surely hope we find out.

[SueB]

 

I suspect the real reason is Dean must be in every major scene.

I can see why it seems that way but I don't think this was actually the case this time. 

 

I struggled with that whole subplot but I think the anvil parallel they were going for was Claire as another mirror of Dean. And Claire decided to step back from becoming a full-on monster by warning Dean at the last minute. So, even though he didn't say a word to her, the sequence of events turned her around.  Now Cas' rationale was thin thin thin ... two messed up people.  But actually, between Dean and Sam, I'd have picked Dean to talk to her.  He relates well to troubled kids and provides "been there" advice.  Of course sending Dean to meet with her without Sam or Cas?  WTF people.  Maybe they rationalized that she wouldn't talk with more than one person there.  Maybe they figured Dean could handle himself.  Regardless, it smelt contrive-y to me. 

 

 

I'm not 100% convinced that was the Mark controlling Dean's behavior but was really more of Dean finally getting some payback which I have no problem with whatsoever.  If the Mark had really been amping up Dean during that scene, I don't think Sam could have pulled Dean off of him that easily because when Dean was trying to kill Gadreel in the lair it took all the combined strength of both Sam and Cas to stop Dean and even then they could barely do it.

 

The Mark was active (flaring when Dean had run the blade down Marvatron's chest):

 

I think Sam is enough to pull Dean back from murderous moments. He's relying on Sam more at this point.

 

 

Is it when the Mark thinks that Dean is really going to die that the urge to kill becomes stronger?  Is it rage, or survival? Is it some other emotion that really makes him go off?  Because if there is no way of really understanding what sets him on the kill path, then how can he ever live a life with anyone near him?

I watched that scene again and here's what I can tell you:

1. When Dean gets the phone call and walks into the dungeon, he's pretty calm.

2. It's not until Marvatron says "the next one is going to cost you" that the background ominous music starts to come in.

3. There IS a "tone" sound (not tea kettle whistle but same concept) but that doesn't show up until after Marv's face is beat-up and he tells Dean that the Mark is making him "twitchy".  The tone stays for the rest of the scene.

4. Action breaks to Cas/Sam and no tone.

5. Back in the Dean/Marv conflict the tone kicks in when Marv says "who was the one who let him (Gadreel) in". it seems to come and go as background noise during the rest of the scene, amping up and subsiding.  The tone completely drops out the moment Sam grabs Dean.  Interestingly enough, the "tone" seems similar in clarity as the noise when the angel blade cuts Marvatron but on a lower octave.

6. Also, when they show the burning mark, there's a slight sizzle sound.

 

Conclusions I draw, it seems like the Mark responded AFTER Dean got physical. And since it was glowy-happy when he was about to kill Marvatron, I'm thinking it's amping up as Dean does violence and cutting the Angel really juiced it.  Which is why Dean thought he was going to kill him.  I don't think Dean walked into the jail intending that, but he certainly "went there" by the end. 

 

ETA: Using the steroid analogy...it's like it's there but is activated by Dean's adrenaline.  As he amps up, it feeds him more juice and a cycle starts where feeding the Mark is making the Mark's influence more.

Edited January 25, 2015 by SueB

[catrox14]

Is it the same tone as when Dean first touched the Blade in Blade Runners? When Magnus forced it into his hand?

[DittyDotDot]

Conclusions I draw, it seems like the Mark responded AFTER Dean got physical. And since it was glowy-happy when he was about to kill Marvatron, I'm thinking it's amping up as Dean does violence and cutting the Angel really juiced it.  Which is why Dean thought he was going to kill him.  I don't think Dean walked into the jail intending that, but he certainly "went there" by the end. 

 

Thanks SueB, I thought the Mark was glowing, but wasn't totally sure. I don't think Dean walked in there intent on killing Marvatron either, but I definitely think he planned on doling out some pain. He did lock the door so no one could interfere and his entire demeanor was vengeful, IMO. I kinda thought the tipping moment might've been when Marv was spouting on about Kevin's death, but I'd have to re-watch it to confirm those suspicions and I really don't have the desire to do that.

 

ETA: Using the steroid analogy...it's like it's there but is activated by Dean's adrenaline.  As he amps up, it feeds him more juice and a cycle starts where feeding the Mark is making the Mark's influence more.

 

Thanks for that too, I was having a hard time articulating it all.

[SueB]

 

Is it the same tone as when Dean first touched the Blade in Blade Runners? When Magnus forced it into his hand?

Softer but definitely in the vicinity. The sizzle (yes, it turns out the Mark turned red in Blade Runner) is softer as well but still there. Also when Sam is talking him down in that episode.

I checked out King of the Damned as well.  Tone noise when he Jedi'd the blade and throughout the extra Stabby stuff. Mark was glowing (thru the jacket even) as he killed Abbadon.

[rue721]

I'm really starting to wonder what the hell is up with Cas.  I mean why on earth would he ask Dean to talk to the teenager that wants him dead? And why would he put Dean in that kind of situation if there was any chance of it becoming a problem for Dean.  I'm actually less irritated with Sam in this scenario than Cas because Cas is kind of leading the judgment train. And I can't figure out if Cas still has any real affection for Dean or if he's just acting oddly becaue Dean made him promise to smite him if he turned into that thing. So every time Dean loses control, is Cas wondering if it's time to send him into the Sun?

 

Do you think that Cas is "testing" Dean? Cas acts like butter wouldn't melt in his mouth with the naiveté, but he has a history of being pretty deceitful. To be honest, I'm also not very impressed by his loyalty based on how he's treated the other angels, how he just passive-aggressively avoided Soulless Sam once he got Sam's body out of the Cage, and how he's treated Claire. Cas isn't *un*trustworthy, I don't think, but he's going to be working his own angle and it might not be one that Dean or Sam would necessarily like. Such as, imo it's possible that he's testing Dean to get his own idea of how far gone he is. Or, I think it's possible he's trying to calculate when to send Dean "into the sun" (still think it's a stupid idea because he'll just die and reappear as a demon in Hell, still linked with the Mark, I would think. Neither Dean's soul nor the Mark are mortal, so what burning up his body would do, Idk). Cas is mortal now, he can't just wait around until the end of time to see whether Dean goes dark side.

 

I thought that Dean went to meet up with Claire because Claire called him, though? To be fair, I think it made sense for him to take her call and agree to her request to meet. He's also not such an ass that he'd just ignore her given that she clearly needs help and was "reaching out" to him. Plus, I think he did legitimately feel like that his actions at Randy's were messed up and understood her beef with him anyway, so he wasn't going to just duck her.

 

I wouldn't have expected that any of them would consider it a possibility that, in the one day or whatever since they'd last seen her, she'd picked up a couple ax murderers who'd jump out at him at the park or wherever they were. Even if they had sniffed out that ridiculous murder plot, I don't think that Claire was in any serious danger from Dean and don't think that Dean needed to avoid her. Dean's not so bad off he was likely to just murder a grieving teen girl in any case, and even after the attack, it didn't seem like he had to struggle not to go after her or anything. He was upset, but not bloodthirsty.

 

But at the end...Sam actually DID kinda deal with the issue in a Sam-way.  He asked Dean if maybe he WANTS to do the hurting and that he has to fight it.  He's not doing a John/Dean which would be to put Dean's ass on lockdown.  He's making Dean come to the realization that he's letting himself get into bad situations and that he's going to have to fight this.  This is the second episode where Sam had the "Oh Shit!" moment when he realized Dean was off the deep end.  I personally think a little closer watching and little more of his "make Dean work thru this" approach is in the right direction.

 

I'm not sure what I think that Sam should do. It's ultimately going to have to be on Dean to know what his limits are and abide by them because nobody else is in his head. And I just don't think that Sam's going to have the nerve to outright take the lead, for a lot of reasons.

 

I guess I'm cutting Sam slack, too, because I figure that it's got to be very frightening and sad for him to see the person he's always counted on, be so helpless and not like himself at all. In Sam's place, I would be really mourning Dean, because who he is now isn't who he's always been. I don't mean just in terms of him not being Sam's rock anymore (though that, too), I mean even his personality and his abilities are different. I don't expect either Sam or Dean to be really explicit about that change, because it's just too sad. What if Dean never comes back and he's just going to be bad-tempered, dependent, and unstable from here on out?

 

What frustrated me about Sam's attempts to address the problem in those conversations about not being too hasty about going after the Blade and about Dean maybe needing to tough out keeping the Mark is that, even though he deserves some props for bringing up the subject openly at all, Sam didn't promise to *do* anything. I don't know if it's fair of me to want him to do that, but I feel like, instead of telling Dean what he thought Dean should do, he needed to come up with some plan of action for himself. Sort of telling Dean what his safety net is, even just so that he would know for sure that he had one?

 

I wish Sam had said that if they were going to get the Blade from Crowley like Metatron had said, that *Sam* was going to have it in safekeeping and Dean still wasn't going to be able to access it directly. Or I wish that Sam had said that he'd just always be there and would be looking out for Dean. So if he saw Dean was slipping out of control, he'd be able to signal Dean and they'd have a plan for where Dean could go or what he could do in that situation. Or I wish that Sam had said that he'd do certain things to help with the Mark, like Dean would be in charge of research back at the bunker but Sam would do all the fieldwork. 

 

I don't know, I don't really expect Sam to have the nerve to be completely straightforward/explict about all the problems they're facing or how Dean's changed, but I do expect Sam to take on more responsibilities and to be straightforward about telling Dean about *that.* Like from now on, Sam has the responsibility for taking care of the Blade, Sam has the responsibility to deal with bad guys/violence in person while Dean stays away, Sam has the responsibility to come up with Plan Bs for if things start spinning out and to keep an eye on Dean to see if he needs to use one, etc.

 

What bothers me is that, while I know in actuality that Sam *will* help however he can, I wanted him to *say* it. Instead, it seemed like he was talking about how he trusts Dean to fulfill his responsibilities (like avoiding the Blade or toughing things out with the Mark). I know he was trying to give a pep talk, etc, but it came off to me like him (inadvertently) putting additional pressure on Dean while giving no additional promises of support. I don't get Sam sometimes -- would that kind of pressure have been helpful to him when he was dealing with the visions from the YED's blood or with that whole demon blood addiction thing?

 

Someone asking for help and getting that sort of "aw, you're tough!" response makes me panicky because I feel like -- just as the person is confessing that they *need* help, they're being told that nobody gives a shit, there's no help coming, they're on their own. It sends my neurotic self into a little bit of a tailspin, and I want Sam to seriously just straight up *say out loud* that he cares and is going to help [and here's how, and then everything's going to be OK]. Given how this show works, I know that's true regardless of whether he says it out loud, but I for real want to hear him say it. It's also why I love when Dean says that sort of thing to Sam, even when it doesn't make any sense or Sam doesn't especially want his help, or Dean is otherwise being completely aggravating. This is probably a "mileage may vary" situation, though. The same issue came up with Frank telling Dean to suck it up way back when Bobby died, and I think I was maybe the only one it bothered then, too (at least in the rewatch threads).

[Aeryn13]

 

I guess I'm cutting Sam slack, too, because I figure that it's got to be very frightening and sad for him to see the person he's always counted on, be so helpless and not like himself at all.

 

Dean has been in the position Sam is now in for years and Sam is a grown up who protested multiple times against their childhood dynamics of little brother/big brother or even pseudo-parent/child. Well, this isn`t only freedom and equality, it comes with some burdening stuff as well. So if he wants the good, I damn well expect him to go out of his comfort zone with the bad, in this case ultimate caretaking, as well. So I honestly don`t get how Dean is basically not a good person anymore but Sam is a bouncy-bouncy baby who gets the utmost slack. 

 

 

Sam has the responsibility to deal with bad guys/violence in person while Dean stays away,

 

I don`t think he would say that because I don`t think it would something he would think of implementing either. Maybe, maybe I can let the doofusness of "lets walk Claire to the car by our twosome, Dean should stay last in the house" go, but did we learn anything from it back at Bunker-ville? No. It`s super-easy for Dean to walk in on an unwatched Metatron and shut themselves in. That went sideways, too. So did we finally learn anything from THAT? No. Because lets send him to talk to Claire alone.

 

Sure, noone expected the axe-murder plot but someone should have waited in the car or maybe Cas could have hid in the bushes and eaves-dropped. If the Claire-situation would have gone sideways, too, I`m pretty sure we would have gotten another moment by Sam and Cas with a shocked "OMG, Dean, how could this happen?"

 

That`s what I meant by my actual addiction scenario. I genuinely put most of the responsibility for getting clean on the addict but if the support person isn`t even putting the pills away from the open table, it makes me head-desk.      

 

Heck, if they had the First Blade back at the bunker, they would probably put it in a safety spot right in front of Dean`s eyes and then make him promise to not get it and touch it and give him a speech how he shouldn`t and he is strong enough to not do it. Faith in a person is nice and all but they could just as well dangle it over his bed and then act shocked when this fool-proof plan didn`t work.

 

Say about Dean what you will but in this same situation he would at least try and hide the damn thing for realz.  

Edited January 25, 2015 by Aeryn13

[catrox14]

 

I thought that Dean went to meet up with Claire because Claire called him, though? To be fair, I think it made sense for him to take her call and agree to her request to meet. He's also not such an ass that he'd just ignore her given that she clearly needs help and was "reaching out" to him. Plus, I think he did legitimately feel like that his actions at Randy's were messed up and understood her beef with him anyway, so he wasn't going to just duck her.

 

Claire did call Dean but prior to that Cas asked Dean to talk to her. He said something like "One really messed up person talking to another one".  Gee thanks Cas. 

[AwesomO4000]

I know he was trying to give a pep talk, etc, but it came off to me like him (inadvertently) putting additional pressure on Dean while giving no additional promises of support. I don't get Sam sometimes -- would that kind of pressure have been helpful to him when he was dealing with the visions from the YED's blood or with that whole demon blood addiction thing?

 

I know Dean was having his own difficulties, but isn't that close to what Dean did until almost the end of season 4? Dean didn't know what Sam was doing, but he knew Sam was doing something. He pretty much told Sam just don't do it anymore and/or well if you do do it just don't lie about it. And then he sighed and was sad when Sam was still lying to him and he knew he was still seeing Ruby. He waited until he saw Sam drinking demon blood before he finally decided to throw him in the panic room. I give Dean a pass, though, because Dean was having his own problems and Sam was pretty stubborn and likely would've done it anyway. I still do wish however that Dean had been a little creative in "When the Levee Breaks" and let Sam think he was going to work with Sam and Ruby... and then ganked Ruby when Sam wasn't looking.

 

However, I'm a little more dubious about "Sam, Interrupted" where Sam confessed that he was having problems with his anger and that he was freaking out about it. I think Sam might've liked a "you can do it, Sam" type pep talk there actually. Dean's "advice" of (paraphrase) "well cut it out! We don't have time for that. Just stuff it down and drink till it goes away or something," maybe wasn't all that helpful in Sam's case (even if that tactic does seem to work for Dean). Dean was perhaps just lucky there that somehow Sam pulled himself together in time to help Dean with his own crisis. And maybe since Sam's pep talk seemed to work for Dean there (in "Point of No Return"), he thought maybe a similar tactic might work again?

 

Like from now on, Sam has the responsibility for taking care of the Blade

 

He probably should, though that has been a touchy subject in the past. At the end of last season, Dean got pretty pissed about it and pretty much just said "no." It also might be tricky to convince Dean that he thinks Dean can do this... buuut I'll just keep this blade over here away from you. I'm guessing Sam's trying to figure out how to be supportive of Dean and help him with the blade problem without at the same time making it seem like he doesn't trust Dean.

Edited January 26, 2015 by AwesomO4000

[SueB]

I prefer Crowley with the blade, away from easy access.

[catrox14]

I don't think Crowley should have the Blade at all. He might have said "screw you, Dean" when Dean couldn't be managed as a demon anymore but IMO Crowley ending his ties with Dean came way too soon and I don't for a minute believe he's done with Dean. Not by a long shot. Considering  Crowley basically knew how to turn Dean into a demon methinks Crowley has some idea about how to actually get rid of the Mark but if he helps Dean get rid of the Mark then he loses a weapon that he controlled once and might be able to control again. He couldn't control demon!Dean but he could blackmail Dean into working as a killer for him via a Sam-napping. Dean clearly can kill without the Blade but he can't kill the really big fish without it so if another big fish comes out of Hell, Crowley will need Dean. And it seems the boys are disinclined to kill Crowley because they still haven't

 

What I  have never understood is why Cas doesn't just send the Blade to the Sun?  That way no one can ever touch it again, I mean aside from needing it for plot reasons. LOL He might send Dean into the sun but not the First Blade? /smh

Edited January 26, 2015 by catrox14

[SueB]

 

What I  have never understood is why Cas doesn't just send the Blade to the Sun?  That way no one can ever touch it again, I mean aside from needing it for plot reasons. LOL He might send Dean into the sun but not the First Blade? /smh

Since Angels no longer have wings, I think the "sun" option is actually out.  Now....a long trip to an active volcano...dump it in...that would work.

 

IA that Crowley kept the blade for precisely the reason you suggest.  I'm just thinking it's better with him than accessible by Dean.  And I expect Rowena to be the one that screws the pooch with the Blade somehow and puts it back in el Deano's hand.

[catrox14]

 

Since Angels no longer have wings, I think the "sun" option is actually out.  Now....a long trip to an active volcano...dump it in...that would work.

 

 Wait, what? Gadreel still had wings in s9 episode 1. I thought Cas was driving because he lost his grace and Hannah was just along for the ride because plot reasons.  What did I miss?

[SueB]

All their wings burned off or where broken when they fell.  They need ground transport now.  Gadreel's wings were in tatters (albeit still half attached) and I don't think he can fly. He was taking the bus to the hospital.

 

From Superwiki:

 

9.1

CASTIEL
You're an angel.
YOUNG WOMAN
Am I? What's an angel without its wings?

 

9.2

Abbadon: "And all the humans, and all the angels with their clipped wings will bow to me! Or they will burn."

[catrox14]

Ah.. thanks for that! I figured they were just being lazy. LOL

[rue721]

Can't you already hear the sad trombone that will play when, about ten minutes after they drop the First Blade into a volcano, they discover it's the key to [their plan to save the world!!1!].

 

IA that Rowena or Crowley will put the Blade in Dean's hand when they have someone they want him to kill. (I think probably, it'll be when Rowena wants him to kill Crowley and/or vice versa).

[catrox14]

 

sorry to be tiresome! But seriously, in S9, so much of what was the worst about Dean reminded me specifically of John -- the refusal to communicate, the bluster, the theatrical pouting, forcing others to tease out his motives or even what he's up to, and obviously giving Sam choices like this, leaning on Sam while still pretending to be in charge...Idk, obviously we didn't see a lot of John, so it's hard to tell, but I do feel like Dean is becoming his father. It's kind of weird because Sam always had more of John's personality, and I don't think that Dean's personality has become more like John's per se, but imo Dean's definitely acting quite a bit like him, and is certainly acting much more like him than Sam is. To be honest, I have *no* idea how OK Dean would be with becoming more like John though, anyway.

 

 

I don't see any thing about Dean right now that is like John at least not what I thought John was like. 

All of this is just my opinion.

 

John never seemed particularly compassionate or passionate about anything but avenging Mary's death which was essentially all of Dean and Sam's lives.  Dean got 4 years of maybe reasonable Dad but even then that was questionable because of DSoM. I'm not so sure John cared as much about saving people and hunting things as he did  revenge.  So to me that difference is stark and that hasn't changed.  Dean has always been about saving people that I can tell. Sam too but Sam also has a vengeful streak that is deeper than Dean's.

 

Dean's always tried to hide his feelings, to be the strong big brother because that is the role he was thrust into and accepted and probably liked to a large degree. But on the occasions where he did try to openly express feelings he faced shaming and belittling for his feelings and being told to suck it up. I could see why he would be reluctant to share when he felt it would be dismissed or ignored anyway.

 

So now after so many years of being the big brother, the caregiver, the protector he's struggling to let someone else take care of him because that means he's not fulfilling his established role as the one that does the taking care of not the one is taken care of.  

 

I don't know what theatrical pouting means but IMO he's not doing anything to get more attention.  If anything IMO Dean HATES unwanted attention. Sure he likes to flirt and have fun  and make connections with people but that is pretty normal for a social animal like Dean. IMO he'd rather put a rusty spork in his eye than admit to Sam he needs help.   That doesn't  make Dean a jerk or an attention whore. It makes him kind of a messed up guy.

 

The funny part is that despite all that when he does express his feelings, he openly cries The Single Man Tear or weeps. He breaks down because he's been holding onto shit for too long.  And even as Dean says he's not upset or what have you, it's there under the surface or written all over his face. John made no bones about expressing his rage and anger at the boys that I could tell.  John kept secrets because he thought he was protecting the boys.  Dean and Sam both make that mistake.

 

IMO Dean is compassionate, caring even with a surfacy bluster and facade of masculine ideals. He defies categorization IMO because he is not a typical macho guy. He is a Tough Guy but IMO he's not really macho at all inside but he feels he has to project that image. That's why when he admitted he liked Taylor Swift it was kind of a big thing. Just like Dean with all his LARPing.  He was ashamed until he found a place of safety to express his inner geek which has always eked out with his pop culture references.  He likes to cook apparently. But he still will open a can of badass when he needs and wants too. 

 

I'm really struggling to see this theatrical pouting or purposeful making people beg him to help them. IMO Dean just is so uncomfortable in that role that he pushes the help away. It's foreign to him. Change is hard. 

[rue721]

I'm really struggling to see this theatrical pouting or purposeful making people beg him to help them. IMO Dean just is so uncomfortable in that role that he pushes the help away. It's foreign to him. Change is hard. 

 

What I'm thinking of specifically w/r/t "theatrical pouting" is what Dean was doing after Sam told him they needed to go their separate ways (post-Gadreel). I don't think that when he was getting plastered and hanging with Crowley, etc, Dean was necessarily thinking to himself, "this will get Sam's attention and bring him back." But it edged pretty close to that imo because I felt like Dean was basically trying to throw himself away right in front of Sam's eyes, which was communicating to Sam the implicit threat that if Sam didn't come back to him ASAP that Dean would be dead pretty fast. That's a very cynical take on what he was doing, I know, and I don't think it was *only* emotional blackmail or even that Dean knew he was committing emotional blackmail, but imo he was really putting Sam in a pretty impossible position nevertheless.

 

The position that Dean was putting Sam in was also really similar to the position that John was putting Dean in at the beginning of the series, imo. Back then, it seemed like John was keeping Dean on a string by basically threatening to implode if left to his own devices *while* continually pushing people away and demanding to be left to his own devices. I don't think that in S9, Dean was thinking, "hey! I'll be just like my father in all the ways that tore my own heart out!" But that's what he was doing anyway imo.

 

IA that it's complicated for Dean to accept help anyway, I don't think he's just being contrary. I think Dean's baseline level of expected trustworthiness for any given person is *really* low, so even shitty people like Crowley are above that baseline -- and since everyone is above that baseline, being above that baseline (even way above it, like Sam is) ends up not meaning anything, either. So I think Dean ends up being overly suspicious of people who have really earned his trust *and* under-reacting to people who have really abused his trust. Which leads to him not accepting enough help or ceding enough control to people who have really earned his trust (like Sam or even Cas), *and* accepting too much "help" and ceding too much control to people who have abused his trust (like Crowley, or arguably, even John).

 

I'm not so sure John cared as much about saving people and hunting things as he did  revenge.  So to me that difference is stark and that hasn't changed.  Dean has always been about saving people that I can tell. Sam too but Sam also has a vengeful streak that is deeper than Dean's.

 

I think Sam's fundamental personality is much more like John's than Dean's is, which is also probably why Sam and John butted heads so much more. But I think that Dean behaves more like John now. I think that John occupied/occupies a big space in Dean's head, and as a consequence, Dean mimics him even unconsciously or in ways that he wouldn't choose to if he thought about it. I feel bad for Dean about it, actually, because I think what he mimics by accident is all the stuff that he found most difficult to deal with coming from John. Not the stuff he admired. But I guess that's what baggage is? lol.

 

As a side note, I guess, imo the most notable trait that Sam inherited from John is a taste for revenge, I think that the most notable trait that Dean inherited from him is paranoia.

[Aeryn13]

 

What I'm thinking of specifically w/r/t "theatrical pouting" is what Dean was doing after Sam told him they needed to go their separate ways (post-Gadreel). I don't think that when he was getting plastered and hanging with Crowley, etc, Dean was necessarily thinking to himself, "this will get Sam's attention and bring him back." But it edged pretty close to that imo because I felt like Dean was basically trying to throw himself away right in front of Sam's eyes, which was communicating to Sam the implicit threat that if Sam didn't come back to him ASAP that Dean would be dead pretty fast.

 

How did he communicate it to Sam? When they initially split up and Dean got the Mark, it`s not like he called Sam and left him a couple guilt-inducing voice-mails to tell him about Crowley. And after he got the Mark, Crowley sought Dean out. So how did Dean flaunt it to Sam? I`m really not getting that.

 

Nor do I think that was at all his motivation. He was messed up and did a more messed up thing and kept imploding afterwards due to a Supernatural stimulus. But that was about him. Not everything needs to be about Sam. Sure, guilt played into it for Dean but I`m not seeing how his motivation was "now I`m gonna make him feel sorry". Not in the least. I don`t think even Sam saw it that way. If he did, IMO that would have been quite conceited.

 

Basically, I just disagree that Season 9 Dean was like John. Dean tried to emulate John for the longest time but they fundamentally don`t have the same coping mechanisms for stressors. And I`m not talking about surface stuff like drinking because that was shared by Bobby and lots of other hunters and it is this show`s code for "messed up". But emotional coping mechanisms. Dean has others than John and as much as he might try, John`s wouldn`t work for him. The problem in Season 9 was that Dean`s own coping mechanisms completely stopped working, too.      

 

 

Which leads to him not accepting enough help or ceding enough control to people who have really earned his trust (like Sam or even Cas), *and* accepting too much "help" and ceding too much control to people who have abused his trust (like Crowley, or arguably, even John).

 

Again, I don`t see this. John was a special case. He was their father and when Dean started to cede control to him, it was at a point in time where this is normal, namely as a kid. And because he grew up with his certain patterns, he had a hard time breaking them.

 

But where did he ever give trust or cede control to Crowley? They have all been begrudging allies at some points, used each other, got played by each other but I`ve never seen actual trust from Dean to Crowley. Let alone giving Crowley control. When Dean was a demon, Crowley had some delusions of grandeur that he was in charge and had trained an "attack dog" but that was such a ludicrous falsity, I only felt pity for him.

 

On the other hand, Dean not giving enough control to Sam or Cas, I think the problem is that he is not giving as much as Sam or Cas would have liked at various points. Since I`m not them and don`t have to agree with them, I never had much of a problem with Dean not leaning or ceding enough to their liking. In fact, the character has opened up and made himself vulnerable on a few occassions where I`ve been: are you freaking crazy? Don`t do that, you might as well just paint a target on your back.

 

I know fiction always tries to paint it as somehow inherently bad when a person tries to be strong most of the time and loathes to show weakness but why is it really? To be frank, I don`t cry in front of others and I don`t want them to in front of me either. So I`m more of a hardliner than Dean is with the "keep it together" philosophy. I don`t understand how that is so terrible. Sure, if you can`t go alone anymore, ask for help but it`s also not like Dean never does that either. Somehow fiction just celebrates the "kumbajah, sharing and caring" attitude all the time and that is just not everybody`s cup of tea so the general trope annoys me.   

Edited February 10, 2015 by Aeryn13

[catrox14]

What I'm thinking of specifically w/r/t "theatrical pouting" is what Dean was doing after Sam told him they needed to go their separate ways (post-Gadreel). I don't think that when he was getting plastered and hanging with Crowley, etc, Dean was necessarily thinking to himself, "this will get Sam's attention and bring him back." But it edged pretty close to that imo because I felt like Dean was basically trying to throw himself away right in front of Sam's eyes, which was communicating to Sam the implicit threat that if Sam didn't come back to him ASAP that Dean would be dead pretty fast. That's a very cynical take on what he was doing, I know, and I don't think it was *only* emotional blackmail or even that Dean knew he was committing emotional blackmail, but imo he was really putting Sam in a pretty impossible position nevertheless.

 

The position that Dean was putting Sam in was also really similar to the position that John was putting Dean in at the beginning of the series, imo. Back then, it seemed like John was keeping Dean on a string by basically threatening to implode if left to his own devices *while* continually pushing people away and demanding to be left to his own devices. I don't think that in S9, Dean was thinking, "hey! I'll be just like my father in all the ways that tore my own heart out!" But that's what he was doing anyway imo.

 

IA that it's complicated for Dean to accept help anyway, I don't think he's just being contrary. I think Dean's baseline level of expected trustworthiness for any given person is *really* low, so even shitty people like Crowley are above that baseline -- and since everyone is above that baseline, being above that baseline (even way above it, like Sam is) ends up not meaning anything, either. So I think Dean ends up being overly suspicious of people who have really earned his trust *and* under-reacting to people who have really abused his trust. Which leads to him not accepting enough help or ceding enough control to people who have really earned his trust (like Sam or even Cas), *and* accepting too much "help" and ceding too much control to people who have abused his trust (like Crowley, or arguably, even John).

 

 

I think Sam's fundamental personality is much more like John's than Dean's is, which is also probably why Sam and John butted heads so much more. But I think that Dean behaves more like John now. I think that John occupied/occupies a big space in Dean's head, and as a consequence, Dean mimics him even unconsciously or in ways that he wouldn't choose to if he thought about it. I feel bad for Dean about it, actually, because I think what he mimics by accident is all the stuff that he found most difficult to deal with coming from John. Not the stuff he admired. But I guess that's what baggage is? lol.

 

As a side note, I guess, imo the most notable trait that Sam inherited from John is a taste for revenge, I think that the most notable trait that Dean inherited from him is paranoia.

I pretty much totally disagree that anything Dean did was to get Sams attention and pull him back to him after his initial attempts to stay bonded right after Sam declared no brothers. Sam drew his line in the sand but it would move back and forth and was frustrating Dean.

Dean was direct about wanting to reconcile and thought they just needed to have a couple of hunts to get back on track but Sam pushed it away. Dean tried a couple of times to connect on hunts but he finally gave up.

By the time captives rolled around we saw Dean with headphones on being to himself. And Dean finally called Sam on his being wishy-washy about things and was going to hunt without him and Sam was aghast and hurt that Dean would domthatnd at the end of captives Kevin told them to stop the drama, Dean was like okay let's talk but Sam has already walked away. Dean puts o his headphones further signaling he was moving on from Sam.

Dean didn't want Sam to know he was in contact with Crowley. And no I don't think Dean wanted to be caught to get Sams attention. Dean was pretty much moving past Sam and finding his own path without Sam for his own reasons and because the MoC was influencing him but mostly I think Dean was just done with Sams attitude.

Dean had every right to go his own way once Sam distanced himself from Dean. Dean was spiraling because of what he had done, Kevin murder because of what he had done and Sam rejecting Dean as a brother and to me Captives was Deans final attempt at reconciliation.

[Wynne88]

Which leads to him not accepting enough help or ceding enough control to people who have really earned his trust (like Sam or even Cas), *and* accepting too much "help" and ceding too much control to people who have abused his trust (like Crowley, or arguably, even John).

 

It's interesting you've included Cas in the group of people who have really earned Dean's trust.  I figure Dean must have an incredibly forgiving personality to let Cas off the hook for all the times in the past he's betrayed him and/or Sam.  This last year or so, Cas has been one of the good guys, but before that - when he was pals with Crowley, when he broke Sam's wall, when he beat the crap out of Dean, helped set them up for the Lucifer/Michael grudge fight, etc, he was anything but a friend.  At this point, I think Dean probably does trust him, but I don't think that trust was necessarily earned.

 

I also tend to agree that Dean wasn't trying to get Sam's attention or trying emotional blackmail.  Dean tends to go off the rails when his life implodes as it did when Sam got mad and rejected him.  

[rue721]

It's interesting you've included Cas in the group of people who have really earned Dean's trust.  I figure Dean must have an incredibly forgiving personality to let Cas off the hook for all the times in the past he's betrayed him and/or Sam.

 

I think Cas earned it relative to basically everyone else. IA that he's had some really big betrayals and has been very devious at times, but he's also come through in some big ways, like when he renounced his entire angel army for Dean's sake. (I actually didn't even agree with him doing that, I thought it was really messed up for him to throw all of that away just for this one off-the-rails human guy. But hey, the heart wants what it wants, I guess?). Anyway, so relative to someone like Crowley or Gadreel or Naomi or whoever, I definitely put Cas in the "earned trust" category. If Cas is being compared to an ideal/paragon of trustworthiness, I agree that he's lacking, but if he's being compared to the other characters around at any given time, I do think that he's relatively trustworthy, and he's done specific things to earn that. YMMV.

 

It's characters like Kevin that I think are more iffy. Not because they're untrustworthy per se (I think Kevin was conscientious to an extreme and that he was treated horribly for it), but because those characters are so relatively powerless within the world of the show that even if they're extremely good-hearted, they're too easily overpowered to be trusted with much. YMMV.

 

Really, the person that imo earned Dean's trust the most was Bobby. I didn't/don't particularly like Bobby, but I do think he was exceptionally trustworthy when it came to Dean.

 

Dean didn't want Sam to know he was in contact with Crowley. And no I don't think Dean wanted to be caught to get Sams attention. Dean was pretty much moving past Sam and finding his own path without Sam for his own reasons and because the MoC was influencing him but mostly I think Dean was just done with Sams attitude.

 

Personally, I felt bad for Sam that apparently he couldn't even take some time away from Dean when he was really pissed off at him. It made sense imo that Sam would want some space, but apparently if he actually took as much as he would want, Dean would fall apart.

 

Like I said, I don't think that Dean thought to himself, "let me use some emotional blackmail on Sam!" But imo that's what ended up happening, when he was self-destructing right in front of Sam and obviously not going to do a thing to stop his own downward spiral himself. What made it frustrating to me and makes me think the self-destructiveness of the choices Dean was making was part of the reason he was making them, and not just an unfortunate side effect of them, was that obviously Dean knows better than to do things like buddy up to Crowley, etc. In First Born he even straight up told Crowley that he had seen that Crowley was playing him. So if he knew better, why was he taking the most self-destructive path to his goals possible? I mean, those were all Dean's choices to make, I understand why he made each individual choice -- but overall, I did feel like he was pulling a very slow suicide, which to me is also what John was doing back in the early days of the series.

 

Dean was also committing his extremely slow suicide right in front of Sam, and because of how Dean was acting, like by being so uncommunicative and unable to work as part of a team, in order for Sam to revive some sort of (personal/family) relationship with Dean (or even be around him) and try and stop him from actually killing himself in short order, Sam was going to have to put all his own feelings/needs aside and focus just on Dean (rather than on what he (Sam) needed/wanted at that time). That also reminds me of Dean and John's relationship, because imo John did that to Dean also in the early days of the series.

 

I felt like Dean's behavior was basically forcing Sam to either focus on Dean and start up their "brother" relationship essentially on Dean's terms, or sit by and watch his brother destroy himself. Obviously Sam loves him, so the threat of Dean destroying himself was going to spur Sam into action -- "action" meaning, he was going to revive their relationship however Dean would agree to revive it in the hopes of being able to help Dean.

 

What also reminded me of John about it was that even though it was *Dean* who had started the whole fallout with *his* decision to betray Sam's trust (via the Gadreel possession), then when Dean actually got called out on it, suddenly it was all about *Dean's* feelings and not Sam's. That was kind of shocking to me because Dean had never been so self-absorbed and insensitive/uncaring like that before. Or at least I hadn't thought that was usual for him. 

 

Emotional blackmail is too harsh a term for it, because I don't think that Dean was consciously trying to coerce Sam into coming back. But consciously or not, he did make it clear to Sam that if Sam didn't come back, he would destroy himself, and slowly, he used that threat/leverage to set the terms for their reconciliation.

 

What makes me more sympathetic to Dean doing that, and also more frustrated by it, is that I do think that behavior isn't far off the mark from how John was acting back in the early days of the series. Throughout S1, the bribe John held out to Dean was the prospect of helping him, and the threat came from his own self-destructiveness. In S9 imo Dean was offering Sam that same bribe and that same threat. On the one hand, that it looks like accidental mimicry to me actually makes me more sympathetic to it because it just seems so fundamentally sad that something that drove Dean nuts at the time is now something he's perpetuating, but on the other hand, it makes me less sympathetic because since this is familiar to him, he should know better.

 

OK I'm sorry if that's inarticulate, it's too late and I'm too tired to do better. But if I'm talking nonsense, I'll try to sort it out tomorrow.

[mertensia]

In my opinion Dean was tired of the post-Gadreel revelation wishy-washiness of Sam's. Sam either needed to deal with what Dean did or not and come to terms for once and for all with how he was going deal with what Dean did and how. Dean reasonably wanted to know which it was going to be.

When you're spiraling down- as Dean was- rational thought isn't always there. Add to that: Dean still thinks he's Hellbound. When you think you're Hellbound who cares if you team up with the King of Hell?

[Aeryn13]

 

Personally, I felt bad for Sam that apparently he couldn't even take some time away from Dean when he was really pissed off at him.

 

In Season 8 when Dean was hurt to learn Sam didn`t look for him, Sam ultimately declared "I told you why I did it" - no, he didn`t, give an explanation at all - and then finished that with a pissy "move on or I will". Dean has gotten numerous speeches in the vein of "well, get over it" or "deal with it on your own, your feelings are an inconvenience right now" boohoo-speeches, from numerous characters. So my go-to response for other characters is now also "boohoo".

 

Not that I think Dean even gave such an ultimatum. He wanted to know where he stood. And anything from "I can never forgive you for this" to "I might get over it but I can`t be around you right now" to "lets keep working together but have no personal relationship" would have been a clear message. Instead, I didn`t even get what Sam`s point was from episode to episode. And once he got in the "you are a horrible person and always have been" speech, I was out. I would have no problem with cutting contact with a person completely if they crossed a certain line but making a sweeping generalization over someone`s entire character always and forever is an absolute no-go for me. 

 

 

But consciously or not, he did make it clear to Sam that if Sam didn't come back, he would destroy himself, and slowly

 

I don`t think so at all. Again, not everything has to be about Sam. If Dean was just imploding at the time and especially with the Mark, what was he supposed to do? Swallow it down yet again for Sam`s sake? I`m sure he even tried that but the point was IMO for me that Dean simply couldn`t do it anymore.

 

 

Sam was going to have to put all his own feelings/needs aside and focus just on Dean (rather than on what he (Sam) needed/wanted at that time

 

That pretty much described Dean`s entire role in the show Season 1-8, the purpose the character seemed to be there for. For the first time we had a role reversal in Season 9 so if Sam has enough of that in Season 18, then we`re talking.

Edited February 11, 2015 by Aeryn13

[rue721]

When you're spiraling down- as Dean was- rational thought isn't always there. Add to that: Dean still thinks he's Hellbound. When you think you're Hellbound who cares if you team up with the King of Hell?

 

Sam cared that Dean was hanging out with Crowley, he made it really clear that he cared about that and even told Dean so flat out.

 

Plus, teaming up with the King of Hell is a terrible idea because of the consequences of what the King of Hell might manipulate you into doing! And in fact, Crowley really did end up making a demon out of Dean.

 

Dean's not stupid, he had to know that he was playing with fire when he was getting so close with Crowley and letting Crowley direct him so much, so all I can think is that he wanted to get burned (and that *at best* he didn't care if Sam saw it).

 

Not that I think Dean even gave such an ultimatum. He wanted to know where he stood. And anything from "I can never forgive you for this" to "I might get over it but I can`t be around you right now" to "lets keep working together but have no personal relationship" would have been a clear message. Instead, I didn`t even get what Sam`s point was from episode to episode. And once he got in the "you are a horrible person and always have been" speech, I was out. I would have no problem with cutting contact with a person completely if they crossed a certain line but making a sweeping generalization over someone`s entire character always and forever is an absolute no-go for me. 

 

Sam told Dean where he stood -- he said needed space from Dean and then tried to take it. He said they were going to have to go their own ways. And then Dean immediately fell apart and fell into Crowley's hands, and Sam realized that he needed to reconnect with Dean because without Sam, Dean was destroying himself. Sam seemed to clearly still want (and need) space from Dean to get his own head on straight, but didn't feel he could take it since it would come at the cost of Dean destroying himself in that downward spiral. So Sam tried to reconnect with Dean for Dean's sake (to try and put the breaks on this self-destructive spiral that Dean was in) despite his own issues with Dean and his own preferences/needs for himself. I don't see anything wishy-washy about that.

 

I don't understand how the idea of Dean cutting off Sam at that point would even come up. Dean was adamant that he wanted to reconcile, but he was also adamant (even more adamant) that saving Sam at all costs wasn't something he was willing to change his thinking about. In order to reconcile, Sam had to at least "agree to disagree" with Dean about that, which obviously was going to be very difficult for Sam to do (and he said why, when he talked about how he was the one looking down at blood on his hands when Dean decided who and what would be sacrificed in order to keep Sam alive (including Dean's own soul)).

 

It was going to be especially difficult for Sam to let that conflict go, given that Dean wouldn't give him an inch, and literally said to Sam's face that his choice w/r/t Gadreel was the right thing to do and that he'd make the same choice again. (I found that bizarre, because Dean had already come around about this in S5, when he accepted Sam becoming Lucifer's vessel. I can fanwank how his perspective might have changed since then, but it was bizarre imo that it wasn't even mentioned afik). Sam made it explicit that he *vehemently* disagreed with Dean about that issue (apparently, he was willing to die because he disagreed with it so much (hence his attempted deal with Death)). But Sam ended up accepting those terms anyway because he became afraid of what would happen to Dean if they didn't reconcile. Sam was the one who agreed to Dean's terms for reconciliation, not the other way around.

 

In Season 8 when Dean was hurt to learn Sam didn`t look for him, Sam ultimately declared "I told you why I did it" - no, he didn`t, give an explanation at all - and then finished that with a pissy "move on or I will". Dean has gotten numerous speeches in the vein of "well, get over it" or "deal with it on your own, your feelings are an inconvenience right now" boohoo-speeches, from numerous characters. So my go-to response for other characters is now also "boohoo".

 

I see a categorical difference between a situation in which you have to let a conflict go or else risk losing the relationship, and a situation where you have to let a conflict go or else risk the person being destroyed. So I see a categorical difference between Dean needing to let it go that Sam didn't look for him or else risk losing his relationship with Sam, and Sam needing to let it go that Dean agreed to the Gadreel thing or else risk Dean destroying himself as a person.

 

That pretty much described Dean`s entire role in the show Season 1-8, the purpose the character seemed to be there for. For the first time we had a role reversal in Season 9 so if Sam has enough of that in Season 18, then we`re talking.

 

That Dean has been in the position of needing to be a non-person in order to act as someone else's crutch (and that mainly seemed to me like the dynamic he had with John, though it's also arguably the dynamic that Dean had with Sam during Sam's blood addiction in S4), makes it *worse* and *sadder* imo that he would put someone else in that position now.

 

I assume that's *the last* thing he'd want to do to someone else because he knows first hand how shitty it is. I thought that his fear of putting someone else through what he'd gone through himself was *exactly* why he distanced himself from Ben and Lisa, and why he tried to talk Krissy's father into getting her out of hunting, and where all that "I'm poison" talk even came from in the first place. I would think that it would be extra galling to him that now, the "someone else" he's putting into that position is the person he loves the most in the world.

 

I think that by doing this now, he became his own worst nightmare, in a "personal" or "character-based" parallel to him becoming his own worst nightmare by becoming a demon. 

Edited February 11, 2015 by rue721

[Aeryn13]

 

I see a categorical difference between a situation in which you have to let a conflict go or else risk losing the relationship, and a situation where you have to let a conflict go or else risk the person being destroyed. So I see a categorical difference between Dean needing to let it go that Sam didn't look for him or else risk losing his relationship with Sam, and Sam needing to let it go that Dean agreed to the Gadreel thing or else risk Dean destroying himself as a person.

 

I have a problem with that because whenever Sam does something, it seems he is just magically justified or it is somehow better or whatnot than when Dean does it. After 10 years of the show pulling that, it just has become one of my absolute hot button topics. For every "poor Sam the victim of mean Dean" trope within the show, I feel so much less compelled to have sympathy for him whereas the more they pull the "it`s all Dean`s fault anyway" trope, it is the opposite. After all, if the show already defends a character up and down the stream, they hardly need me to do it on top of that and vice versa.

 

In the end, I think we have just very different views on both the characters and different life philosophies colouring those views.

Edited February 11, 2015 by Aeryn13

[AwesomO4000]

That pretty much described Dean`s entire role in the show Season 1-8, the purpose the character seemed to be there for. For the first time we had a role reversal in Season 9 so if Sam has enough of that in Season 18, then we`re talking.

 

We definitely see things differently in this regard. I thought that there were plenty of times during season 1-8 that it was Sam being there for Dean - or at least trying to be - rather than vica-versa. How was Dean "there" for Sam in the first half of season 2, for example? He actually did quite a bit to shut Sam out during that time even as Sam was trying to be supportive of Dean. In season 3, Sam was the one trying to be there for Dean again. Ditto at least part of season 5. (In my opinion, Dean felt that he had to work with Sam, but there wasn't all that much "support" that I saw. It actually showed that there wasn't much sometimes, and Sam accepted that and worked through it anyway to try to gain Dean's trust back.) And again in season 7, Sam was the one trying to give support for most of the season.

 

While it might not be 50/50 equal as to who is the one being there for the other, it is definitely not anywhere near that Dean is always the one in the support role in my opinion.

 

I have a problem with that because whenever Sam does something, it seems he is just magically justified or it is somehow better or whatnot than when Dean does it.

 

We also disagree here, since I can find examples of the contrary. For example: When Sam is motivated by revenge he's called out for it and/or it completely backfires, making things worse. His motive of revenge was never shown as a good thing that I recall, nor does it have a good result. When Dean is motivated by revenge, he gets the ultimate good result by killing the season's big bad. When Sam tries for "normal" he fails and/or every one around him suffers for it. When Dean tries for normal, he does just fine and is able to fit in well. With the exception of Crowley, when Dean trusts a "bad guy," it turns out to be the right thing to do (Meg, Naomi,) but if he says they are bad, they are (Ruby, Metatron and Crowley [for Cas].) It's generally the opposite for Sam (Ruby / Gadreel) and Castiel (Crowley, Metatron / Naomi.) To me, the whole Naomi surprise turnaround was an example of Dean magically being shown to be right when all evidence previously pointed to Naomi being the bad guy.

[Mcolleague]

 

Like I said, I don't think that Dean thought to himself, "let me use some emotional blackmail on Sam!" But imo that's what ended up happening, when he was self-destructing right in front of Sam and obviously not going to do a thing to stop his own downward spiral himself.

 

Late to the conversation, and sorry to jump in, but I'm very comfortable with the implications of this kind of statement. You could argue the same for most suicidal people, that there is an ulterior motive, that it's *attention seeking* and *emotional blackmail*, because it will ALWAYS have an effect on their loved ones. I'm uncomfortable with this implication that external/physical things happening to Sam - which cause Dean to drop everything and give up his own needs to fix the more immediate problem throughout the series - are easily forgiven as being out of one's control, but suicidal depression is considered within one's control and actually attributed questionable intentions. 

 

Even ASSUMING that very uncomfortable premise, I disagree that this would factor into it. Why would Dean bother to emotionally blackmail Sam with self destruction when he already believed that Sam would leave him to die (Purgatory), and when it was confirmed by Sam telling Dean explicitly that Sam would not save him? Different fans may interprets Sam's words/actions differently, but to Dean at that point in the story, this was what he believed. What would be the purpose of emotionally blackmailing someone to whom you believe you mean nothing? He didn't ask anything of Sam. When he took on the MoC, Sam wasn't even there to witness it, and after he had it, it was too late to do anything about. How can this be considered emotionally manipulative in any way? Dean felt that his part in Sam's possession and Kevin's death was beyond forgiveness and damned him. He was beyond redemption. NOTHING was going to be enough, and all he could do to even slightly pay for his sins was to give whatever he had left - his life and his soul - to do what good he could in one last burst, then he would go pay for his sins in hell where he belonged. That was the mindset as I saw it.

 

ETA: by very comfortable I obviously meant very UNcomfortable... fail lol

Edited February 14, 2015 by Mcolleague

[SueB]

 

Dean felt that his part in Sam's possession and Kevin's death was beyond forgiveness and damned him. He was beyond redemption. NOTHING was going to be enough, and all he could do to even slightly pay for his sins was to give whatever he had left - his life and his soul - to do what good he could in one last burst, then he would go pay for his sins in hell where he belonged. That was the mindset as I saw it.

 

This is my take as well.  Dean said to Sam, regarding Kevin's death, "I'll burn for that.".   To me that was a huge telling point.  In S1 Dean helped perform and exorcism but didn't really believe in a specific afterlife concept.  In S2 he found out his Dad was tormented in Hell and Dean made a deal to go there.  But I think he didn't really get Hell (nor could anyone, really) until he WENT there.  And then, boy-howdy, Dean got a face-full of Hell.  In S4 he was clued into "Yes, there apparently is also a God, Angels and Lucifer" based on unambiguous proof.  It was a hard concept to wrap his head around but when he and Sam died in S5 and went to Heaven, I think Dean had some hope of drinking in Harvelles again someday.  Dean went pretty suicidal in S7 but his self-loathing never reached the level it did in S9 Road Trip.  

 

So, IMO, taking on the MoC was not remotely about redemption or Sam or anything else.  Dean was 100% convinced there was no coming back -- especially from Kevin.  I think he held out hope to be around Sam again, but he felt he was destined for Hell.  And it all just hurt so damned much he was desperate for ANY mission to focus on.  Which is why he went along with the manipulation Crowley offered.  I don't think he knew it was a manipulation until he saw Crowley's fake fear at Cain's house.  But he pressed on.  He just wanted to "even the odds" a bit, given he felt he'd made things worse.  In 9.2 he said EVERY demon possession was on "him" because he stopped Sam from completing the trials.  That's a Dean Winchester class guilt trip but I see his logic.  So...since he lost Gadreel's trail and couldn't easily find payback for Kevin, knocking off Abbadon seemed like a good distraction.  Which Crowley preyed upon.  And Crowley, in Crowley's mind, thinks he did Dean a favor.

 

 

Sam realized that he needed to reconnect with Dean because without Sam, Dean was destroying himself.

 

I think in Sharp Teeth Sam did not appreciate Dean's self destruction -- at all.  Yes Dean told him about the Mark of Cain but there were no obvious effects for Sam to see.  Dean was not guzzling down whiskey in front of Sam and he wasn't all that ruthless in the kills yet.  Instead, I think Sam and Dean both agreed that hunting together "cut the crappiness in half".  

 

I think Dean came back thinking Sam would eventually come around.  He didn't really believe the we're not brother's thing until Sam said he wouldn't save him under the same circumstances in The Purge.  I believe Sam was focused on individual agency and the specific circumstances.  I think Dean heard "Sam doesn't love me anymore" (well not those exact words...but that sentiment).  That was a real gutshot to Dean.  Dean pulled one all-nighter at the start of The Purge.  Maybe, MAYBE, he thought Sam would notice he's hurting and cut him some slack.  But honestly, with the "low-dose steroid" effect of the MoC kicking in after his kills in Sharp Teeth, I think it was just Dean staying up all night.  It's been clear in the past that Dean AND Sam have done this before.  Yes he had a bottle of whiskey with him, but he also had found a case.  So, IMO, that single all-nighter before the final discussion in The Purge was regular bush-league Winchester angst.  The fight in The Purge is what put Dean on notice that he may have completely lost Sam for forever.  When Sam stuck to his guns after Kevin's advice, I think Dean got angry at everything and just shut down.

 

We saw he hid his drinking from Sam in Mother's Little Helper and IMO it wasn't until Blade Runner when Sam saw Dean go primal that Sam picked up on how dangerous the Blade was.  And his concern ratched up tremendously when he saw Dean go Stabby McStabberson with Abbadon.  But neither of those moments, IMO, were remotely intended by Dean to get Sam to forgive him.

 

Bottom line: I think the decision to get back together was to end solo hunting (it's unsafe, they are better hunters together, split the crappiness).  I think Dean, stung by the argument in The Purge, tried to take whatever relationship he could have with Sam but I don't think he was looking for forgiveness.  Dean said his piece in The Purge -- and I think he still believed it when he died -- he'd save Sam again.  I think he'd act differently about Kevin but he didn't say that to Sam.  I think he knows keeping it to himself was a mistake.  I think they STILL haven't resolved between the two of them (at least not onscreen), that the issue was more about the lying than the heat of the moment decision (IMO).   

[Demented Daisy]

From the Sam thread:

 

In "Home" Missouri said that John came to see her only a few days after the fire.  I got the impression that he stayed on at the garage for a few weeks or months before he took off.  But I didn't get the impression it was years.

 

 

 

I didn't mean they stayed in Lawrence for years.  I meant it took John years to learn everything he knew.  Yes, he went to Missouri, but she couldn't tell him everything.  When I said:

 

Maybe John was upfront with Dean; maybe he told Dean everything.

 

 

I meant that literally.  I meant that John told Dean everything that he knew so that Dean could protect Sam.  And that's not something you learn from one person, once.

[SueB]

Sorry, I was conflating your response and Aeryn's 7 yr old estimate.

[rue721]

I meant that literally.  I meant that John told Dean everything that he knew so that Dean could protect Sam.  And that's not something you learn from one person, once.

 

IA. I think, though, that John wasn't necessarily all that organized about informing Dean, either. John seemed like he basically "apprenticed" Dean pretty early, so it seemed to me like he told Dean how to do what Dean needed to do in order to be helpful. Not that I think he was holding back, but I think the focus was much more on practical skills rather than general information. There's also only so much a child can take in or understand. It's one thing to tell a kid something, it's another for a kid to actually understand fully what it means -- a kid just often doesn't have enough experience and therefore doesn't have enough perspective to be able to do that, I think. You can tell a kid that witches exist, but how is he really going to understand what a witch is, if he's never seen one or anything like one?

 

So I'm not sure how much there even really was for Dean to tell Sam, aside from teaching him practical skills, too (like use a gun) -- and he and John seemed to be teaching him practical skills from pretty early on, afaik. I think that Dean was trying to withhold knowledge from him, too, but I'm not sure that there was *that* much actual knowledge to withhold, since the only way for Sam to actually understand what a monster is would have been to face one -- and obviously, neither Dean nor John wanted a small child doing that. And I don't think that Sam felt compelled to do that, either, even to the extent that Dean would have been, because Sam had basically been born into hunting rather than violently thrust into it from another life, so it was a given for him, rather than an oasis or promise of safety.

 

Anyway, I think that the desire to shelter Sam from *why* they needed to learn those practical skills was coming from a few different motives. I think that neither Dean nor John wanted to rehash why, because it was a painful topic. I think it was also difficult for them to explain to him how and why their life wasn't "normal," especially since Dean still as an adult had a hangup about denying that it wasn't normal.

 

And I think a *big* reason for keeping all this from Sam, is that they had to have been afraid of Sam blabbing all kinds of weird stuff to every classmate and teacher he came into contact with, and getting the whole family into trouble. When things started out, Dean was terrified, and he's loyal to John to a fault, and John himself seemed like he was pretty messed up, so I doubt that John worried much about him letting anything slip. Sam was in a different scenario. But once Sam was able to find things out for himself, he was probably mature (and sneaky!) enough to be trusted with a secret.

 

I think it was Dean, not John, who put the gloss of Sam retaining his "childhood innocence" as long as possible over them trying to keep that secret from Sam for as long as possible. John just seems to me like he would never have been romantic or protective in the sense that something like that would even matter to him. YMMV. I also think that it's likely Dean had an outsized idea of how destabilizing that secret was going to be, because he was the one who had to try and keep it on the day-to-day, and also because he'd learned the secret the hard way (I mean, by way of the fire) and so learning about it actually had been immensely destabilizing for him. And I think that, up until at least last season, Dean had a tendency to do this weird thing of living sort of vicariously through Sam, so maybe he was also trying to hold onto "their" innocence and childhood by having Sam hold onto his.

 

Something else that I think is interesting about how Dean treated Sam way back when, is that Dean knows what having a mother is like, and Sam doesn't. So I think that some of the things that Dean was trying to do -- in terms of their family life and wanting Sam to have a childhood and all that -- were basically indecipherable to Sam. Simply because Sam couldn't really know what hole Dean was even trying to fill, since he'd never really had a mother or known theirs.

 

Speaking of mothers, I wonder about Rowena and Crowley's storyline. I don't think that either Sam or Dean could relate particularly well to what's going on with Rowena and Crowley in terms of their relationship (or lack of one) with Mary. But I'm curious about how Rowena and Crowley's relationship might compare/contrast and with John and his son's, especially John and Dean's.

[Aeryn13]

 

You can tell a kid that witches exist, but how is he really going to understand what a witch is, if he's never seen one or anything like one?

 

I think a child especially would default to the only thing they do know, which is fairytales, pretty much their imagination and fears (when it comes to monsters). They would actually question the existance of such creatures far less than an adult would - since they halfway still believe anyway - but would get totally the wrong ideas. Which in turn makes it IMO more difficult to tell a young child too much information.

 

So, sure, John could technically have told a five year old Dean that monsters existed and a five year old would have readily believed it. But would have believed them to be the monsters of HIS fantasy. That would have served no purpose really other than to terrify the child beyond recognition. That`s why I think the actual telling happened later. 

[rue721]

You could argue the same for most suicidal people, that there is an ulterior motive, that it's *attention seeking* and *emotional blackmail*, because it will ALWAYS have an effect on their loved ones. I'm uncomfortable with this implication that external/physical things happening to Sam - which cause Dean to drop everything and give up his own needs to fix the more immediate problem throughout the series - are easily forgiven as being out of one's control, but suicidal depression is considered within one's control and actually attributed questionable intentions.

 

I don't think that Dean was bluffing. I think he really was feeling like if even Sam couldn't be near him, that he was DONE and there wasn't really a reason for him to even try to keep living anymore. So he was going to go out swinging -- taking on the Mark, getting this Abaddon thing taken care of, etc.

 

But imo once Dean's state of mind became clear to Sam -- which it did pretty fast, because Dean fell apart quickly and obviously -- Sam's choice was either to go back to Dean's side or to watch from afar as Dean killed himself. Although that's technically a choice that's entirely in Sam's hands, I don't think it can be said to be a *real* choice, because there's so much pressure to not let a loved one just destroy himself and/or die. Dean knew that Sam didn't want to be near him (and the completely understandable reasons for that), but he fell apart and that forced Sam's hand, and so Sam came back to him before he (Sam) was ready. When Sam said he needed to leave, I think that Dean should have *really* let him go, meaning, he should not have then given on being responsible for his own welfare and implicitly laid that responsibility on Sam's shoulders (because realistically, who else was going to take up that burden, and how could Sam *not* take it up and live with himself?).

 

Sam did *not* do that for Dean when Dean had just come back from Hell and Sam was deep into his whole Ruby-and-demon-blood quagmire and just continued squirming deeper and deeper into it. But I thought that was fucked up, and I also think that Dean making it impossible for Sam to get the distance he said he needed was fucked up. They can both do wrong. I think that implicitly forcing someone to take care of you just when *you know* he's struggling to take care of himself is selfish.****

 

Irl, people *do* do that sort of thing, too, ime. Just because someone is escalating a conflict and trying to twist your arm into doing things their way, it doesn't mean they're bluffing that they'll harm or kill themselves if you don't. Maybe they really are just that desperate. Which is why the emotional blackmail works -- regardless of how conscious someone is that they're doing it. In their own mind, I'm sure they usually twist things around so that they feel justified. YMMV. Obviously, that's not why many/most people edge toward suicide, but it's also not some fictional thing. Someone can be both manipulative *and* genuinely suicidal, they're not mutually exclusive.

 

ETA:  Sorry to get too snotty about it. Everyone has their own experience. Ime self-destructiveness and even acting/being suicidal can become a choke chain that someone uses to keep the people who love him acting how *he* wants them to act, regardless of what's good for them. It's the ultimate trump card, *especially* if it's not a bluff. To make things more maddening in this specific scenario, imo:  First, Dean decides that he needs Sam alive, so he makes the decision about the possession. Fine. But then when Sam tries to become autonomous again and says he's going to take some space, Dean starts spiraling out, tugging on that choke chain, and then Sam is right back next to him in the bunker. I don't think it's usual for Dean in particular to pull that kind of thing, it's his first time to do so afaik. But it's something that gets my back up. On the one hand, it's got to be burning Sam up with rage and fear inside, he must feel trapped and powerless, but on the other, it's not as though he can turn that on Dean, because Dean's fragile right now. Let alone do what he would usually do, and look to Dean for help! And where else would he want to be, anyway? Meh, terrible situation imo.

 

I think Dean, stung by the argument in The Purge, tried to take whatever relationship he could have with Sam but I don't think he was looking for forgiveness.  Dean said his piece in The Purge -- and I think he still believed it when he died -- he'd save Sam again.  I think he'd act differently about Kevin but he didn't say that to Sam.  I think he knows keeping it to himself was a mistake.  I think they STILL haven't resolved between the two of them (at least not onscreen), that the issue was more about the lying than the heat of the moment decision (IMO).   

 

I agree that he wasn't looking for forgiveness. I think he just didn't want to be separated from Sam. I don't think he ever wants to be separated from Sam.

 

I also don't think that that the lying was the problem. I think it was the self-interest. When Dean chose that Sam would live despite whatever sacrifices that might mean for others (like Kevin) or Sam's own wishes/autonomy, he did it because that's what *he* (Dean) wanted. Sam trusted Dean to look out for him, and ideally, for the greater good. Instead, Dean looked out for himself. I think that it would have been deal-able for Sam, except that Dean wouldn't even admit it, let alone consider changing.

 

****Like I said earlier, I don't think Dean coming out of nowhere with this. John seemed to me like he was doing the same thing to his kids all through S1 *at the least.* YMMV, but even though I have an enormous soft spot for John, I think that he was incredibly manipulative. It seemed to me like he was keeping Dean at his beck and call by alternately scaring the shit out of him, disappearing, and dropping some random tenderness bomb on him. That seems SO SIMILAR to what Rowena is doing now, though of course, Rowena is much campier and sillier about it! Anyway, I feel like Dean was falling quite a bit into that pattern in S9. Though he's now pulled back up out of that nosedive, thankfully.

Edited February 21, 2015 by rue721

[SueB]

 

I also don't think that that the lying was the problem. I think it was the self-interest.

IA that self-interest was Sam's issue and Dean just couldn't see it that way when he was actively lying to Sam.  I think Sam (and Gadreel) gave him a face-full of this and that's part of what left Dean so bereft after the argument in The Purge. He BELIEVED Sam completely (per his conversation w/ Gadreel).  

 

Where you and I disagree is that I think Sam wanted to hunt with Dean just as much as Dean needed to be near Sam.  I think it was a mutual decision.  I also think Sam thought they could separate their personal issues from business and that bitter pill took time for Dean to really act according to Sam's wishes. But I'd say that by the time The Captive was over, Dean had given up hope of reconciliation w/ Sam.  I don't think Dean tried to engage Sam again on a personal level after that. Sam asked about Dean's sleeping and the Mark when the Mark became obvious (post Blade Runners).  

 

I think Dean (in as much as Dean could) kept things "partners not brothers" while still being hunting partners.  

 

But I think it's unfair to say Dean forced Sam to continue to hunt with him.  I thought that was a mutual decision.  Sam had conditions that took a while to really sink in for Dean, but I don't think Dean looked like he needed taking care of in Sharp Teeth.  So, IMO, your analogy that suicidal Dean forced Sam to accept Dean back before he was ready is ONLY true at the very end. In the last episode of S9.  Sam still wanted to be mad but at THAT point, the stakes were too high and he set aside his own personal pain to deal with the mytharc crisis of the moment.  

[Aeryn13]

 

I think that Dean should have *really* let him go, meaning, he should not have then given on being responsible for his own welfare and implicitly laid that responsibility on Sam's shoulders

 

I don`t think he did. And even so, what else was he supposed to do? Snap himself out of it yet again? I hated all the "get over it, your depressive state is an inconvenience" messages Dean got over course of the show. And he still tried to make it work, stow the issues every single time. Everyone reaches a breaking point. So did Dean. He couldn`t cope anymore. For me the point of this state is that a person can`t do what you argue he should have done anymore. They are simply incapable to.

 

Just like a person with asthma isn`t just not tryng hard enough to get air, a depressed person can`t simply decide or use their willpower or whatnot to not be a mess. And sure, it sucks for the people around them but it is still their choice to help. Not helping might be cold-hearted and cruel but it is still an option a person has. If they can live with themselves, they can take it. If they can`t live with themselves, they obviously won`t but it is a choice a person owns IMO.  

 

 

I don't think it can be said to be a *real* choice, because there's so much pressure to not let a loved one just destroy himself and/or die.

 

In short, I completely disagree with this. It is a real choice. A choice isn`t negated for me if one option carries a bad self-image or looks bad to others. People do say: screw the pressure and responsibility and then walk away.  Is this not then seen as their choice? Are they not then blamed and looked down upon occassionaly for that choice? If so, the inverse must also be true. It`s can`t only be a choice if you choose door number two but otherwise, it`s the responsibility of another person.    

Edited February 21, 2015 by Aeryn13