Dean Winchester: aka Squirrel

[bozodegama]

Thanks Ladies.  I went to a convention a few years ago to see if I could say hi to my hero Dean (Ackles).  It was mostly 20ish girls, many of whom had purple or green hair and pentagram tattoos where Sam and Dean have them.  Nothing wrong with that but I just didn't really fit in.  Whatever, I love the show, expecially Dean Winchester whose the best character of any tv show i've ever seen.  Also, the classic rock doesn't hurt.  I'm glad the younger people can still hear my generations music and appreciate it.  

[ahrtee]

1 minute ago, bozodegama said:

Thanks Ladies.  I went to a convention a few years ago to see if I could say hi to my hero Dean (Ackles).  It was mostly 20ish girls, many of whom had purple or green hair and pentagram tattoos where Sam and Dean have them.  Nothing wrong with that but I just didn't really fit in.  Whatever, I love the show, expecially Dean Winchester whose the best character of any tv show i've ever seen.  Also, the classic rock doesn't hurt.  I'm glad the younger people can still hear my generations music and appreciate it.  

Yeah, I went to a convention a few years ago and also didn't fit in/felt very, very old.  (I did have a photo op with Jensen, and my request to him was: "please don't make me look like your mother!"  It made him laugh.)

[DittyDotDot]

2 hours ago, bozodegama said:

I'm sure i knew that about Heaven and Hell.  I have only watched all the episodes about 20 times each (except for a few episodes each season, like the Hitler episode).  Am I the only male on this website?  I feel like i'm totally not their target audience, a 55 year old guy with 2 millennial daughters who loves Dean Winchester.(and not in a Destiel way)  I've heard a young guy say when he has a problem, he asks himself what would Dean Winchester do?   I feel the same.  I wish my daughters would watch the show but they have no interest.  You would think they would like it with the guys being so handsome but no dice.

I'm not sure there is a target demographic for this show anymore. I mean, originally, I'm sure the network was looking for young 20-somethings, but the show actually draws a very wide demographic. My understanding is women tend to be the ones commenting online and going to cons more than men, but the audience is more 50/50. But, this site alone seems to have a very wide-ranging group of posters, from teenagers to folks in their 50s and all different walks of life. So I think you might actually be the target demographic even if you didn't know that. ;)

BTW, I also think the show is somewhat deceiving and is hard to get someone else to jump on board. It sounds like a really cheesy horror show--and sometimes it is--but it's also so much more than that and I never know how to explain it to someone; especially someone who doesn't think they would like a silly little genre show to begin with. 

[Wayward Son]

16 hours ago, bozodegama said:

I'm sure i knew that about Heaven and Hell.  I have only watched all the episodes about 20 times each (except for a few episodes each season, like the Hitler episode).  Am I the only male on this website?  I feel like i'm totally not their target audience, a 55 year old guy with 2 millennial daughters who loves Dean Winchester.(and not in a Destiel way)  I've heard a young guy say when he has a problem, he asks himself what would Dean Winchester do?   I feel the same.  I wish my daughters would watch the show but they have no interest.  You would think they would like it with the guys being so handsome but no dice.

Just popping in to say that I am another male poster. 

[Myrelle]

On ‎12‎/‎28‎/‎2017 at 0:32 AM, bozodegama said:

I have to say as a huge Dean Winchester fan, my three favorite Dean moments are

1.  Stabbing Zachariah in the face.  He actually said he would do it and he keeps his word.  Badass Dean at his best.  And his smile and wink to Sam.  Priceless

2.   Bobby realizing it’s Dean and hugging him in Lazarus Rising.  I could watch it over and over again.  "It's good to see you, boy."

3.  Surprisingly for me it’s in Goodbye, Stranger when he’s beaten up by Cass to the point of death and he tells him “we need you, I need you, we’re family”.   Gets me every time.  

Honorable mention:  not sure of the episode but it’s the one where he finally tells Sam what happened in hell.  “ I got off the rack Sammy so help me and I started ripping them apart.  

This post had me thinking for the last couple of days because it's so hard for me to pare it down to three. There are so many episodes where Dean just seems So. Real. to me and in all honesty, that's the biggest reason why I now love Dean Winchester more than any other fictional character that I've ever loved. Dean still rocks my world even after all these years.

The first full episode I ever watched was Devil's Trap, and not surprisingly, both the cabin scene and the interrogation of Meg stand out as quintessential Dean moments for this Deanfan. I loved his ferocity  during the interrogation scene. The duality of his hatred of the demon and his adamant desire to "save" Meg by freeing her from the demon's possession drew me to him like a moth to flame ;-). And Dean in that entire cabin scene-from when he admits that how far he'd go for his family scares him sometimes, to his body being broken and bloodied from the inside by the YED wearing John's face, to his gasping out to Sam "Where's dad?"... and "Go check on him... go check on him..." and nothing else as he lay there bleeding from that beating. Those two scenes have remained with Dean's character down through the years for me, and for that reason, I think that I'll have to go with them as being in my top 3.

I'm still working on that last one, but now it becomes very hard and I think there would be numerous ties; but I DO know that IMTOD-that whole episode, and What Is and What Should Never Be-and again, the whole episode-are chock full of top Dean moments for me. And then there's the scene in No Rest for the Wicked when the hell hounds take him and/or the scene(s) where he takes on the MOC, and or when he "dies" at the hand of Metatron.

And his entire turns in  both Mystery Spot and Sam Interrupted.

See there's so many for me(and many more that I know I've left off), but it's been some fun contemplating for me for the last couple of days, and I think I will just continue on in my search for that last top 3 scene, so thanks for this  nice Dean-thought-provoking post. :-)

Edited December 29, 2017 by Myrelle

[Myrelle]

Oh, I forgot Faith, too every scene in that one also.

And to do my episodes ten post, too.

Yay! again!! for all these nice Dean prompts to help us shorten the hiatus!!!

I'll be back...

Edited December 29, 2017 by Myrelle

[bozodegama]

Yeah I’ve tried to everything to make my daughters watch Supernatural.  I’ve made them watch The Pilot, Wendigo, Scarecrpw, Tall Tales, Changing Channels.  I’ve even told them there’s going to be a sequel with all young women.  Nothing.  What’s funny is they know the characters by  name now Dean, Sammy, Bobby Cass.  Today I went to see a movie with Hugh Jackman with my younger daughter.  She said to me, “Dad, he looks just like Dr. Sexy from Grays anatomy.”  I  burst out laughing.  I almost answered her, “ Well you can tell it’s Dr. Sexy if he’s wearing Cowboy Boots not tennis shoes,” 

[catrox14]

9 hours ago, bozodegama said:

Yeah I’ve tried to everything to make my daughters watch Supernatural.  I’ve made them watch The Pilot, Wendigo, Scarecrpw, Tall Tales, Changing Channels.  I’ve even told them there’s going to be a sequel with all young women.  Nothing.  What’s funny is they know the characters by  name now Dean, Sammy, Bobby Cass.  Today I went to see a movie with Hugh Jackman with my younger daughter.  She said to me, “Dad, he looks just like Dr. Sexy from Grays anatomy.”  I  burst out laughing.  I almost answered her, “ Well you can tell it’s Dr. Sexy if he’s wearing Cowboy Boots not tennis shoes,” 

So what is it about SPN they aren't interested in?

Maybe show them The French Mistake or Nightshifter? Or Mystery Spot?

[DeeDee79]

11 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

So what is it about SPN they aren't interested in?

Maybe show them The French Mistake or Nightshifter? Or Mystery Spot?

Yes, you can't go wrong with Nightshifter! Mystery Spot is the episode that reeled me in :)

Edited December 31, 2017 by DeeDee79

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Yes, you can't go wrong with Nightshifter! Mystery Spot is the episode that reeled me in :)

IMO,  Nightshifter is a great 'way in' episode.  It has enough lore and grossness, it has humor, it explains the dynamic between Dean and Victor and also spotlights Dean's complicated realtionship with John. Shows the brother bond and their differences too, great fight scene between the shifter and Dean, and the best damn music cue EVER in this show( that's my opinion, others might disagree). 

[DeeDee79]

21 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

IMO,  Nightshifter is a great 'way in' episode.  It has enough lore and grossness, it has humor, it explains the dynamic between Dean and Victor and also spotlights Dean's complicated realtionship with John. Shows the brother bond and their differences too, great fight scene between the shifter and Dean, and the best damn music cue EVER in this show( that's my opinion, others might disagree). 

Totally agree with all of this. It's definitely in my top five.

[Casseiopeia]

[Myrelle]

On ‎12‎/‎23‎/‎2017 at 11:24 AM, ILoveReading said:

Since I'm missing Dean, I thought this would be a good time to start the episode by episode discussion again.  Discuss Dean in episode 10.

Season 1 Asylum

Season 2- Hunted

Season 3- Dream a little Dream of Me

Season 4- Heaven and Hell

Season 5- Abandon All Hope

Season 6- Caged Heat

Season 7- Death's Door

Season 8- Torn and Frayed

Season 9- Road Trip

Season 10- The Hunter Games

Season 11- Devil in the Details

Season 12- Lily Sunders has some Regrets

Just going to wing it off the top of my head with my Dean memories of these because I've only got about a half hour...

Asylum-I used to like this one more before the writers decided that they were never really and truly going to go in-depth and explore the complexity of the "hate" part of the brothers' love/hate relationship better. Now when I watch it, it's just  more of a reminder of all that I wanted and hoped to see in that regard. But the things I remember most about this one is the look on Dean's face when Sam pulls the trigger not just once, but four friggin' times-right before Dean clocks him so hard that it's lights out for Sam. I love it any time that Dean gets to knock someone out cold with one punch. I also loved him taking care of the deadly doc in this one. His grossed out reaction to the smell was awesome as was his cringe as he watched him burn. Great Ackting there. Loved it. So much.

Hunted-I hated this episode on first watch and still do. Sam taking off on Dean never sat well with me back then and it never will; and it's still largely unexplored territory within the brothers' relationship, IMO. Dean's anger with Gordon up on that roof top was the best part of this one for me.

Dream a Little Dream of Me-Loved this one. It was so good. A great glimpse inside Dean's psyche. The end scene is still heartbreaking to me on any re-watch. And the Dean and Bobby stuff was Awesome, too.

Heaven and Hell-So many great Dean scenes and moments. The obvious one is the end scene which I have heard some veterans of war describe as uncomfortably realistic for them. I could not agree more. I felt the same. That was another emmy-worthy performance from Jensen, IMO. But the one I liked just as much was when Anna informed Dean that she knew what he'd done in Hell. Dean's understated response of "I can't... I can't... I can't talk about that." was Too. Good. As was their kiss right before she was going to go with the angels. And going shallow here, the Back of Sex made another appearance that still inspires many gifs to this very day. Beautiful. Beautiful. Beautiful.-as were his bloody knuckles on her alabaster thigh and her gentle touch of the handprint scar. They got some stuff right on in that love scene, if not everything.

Abandon All Hope-another great Dean episode that has unfortunately lost a lot of it's luster for me because of how the Dean/Michael storyline turned out. My favorite scene from this one is when Dean kisses Jo good-bye. So many silent words spoken between them and that scene has always, always reminded me very much of one of my all-time favorite movie scenes in LOTR The Fellowship of the Ring when Aragorn says that final farewell to Boromir. Just Beautiful. Again.

Caged Heat-Forgettable episode for me. I remember Dean threatening the grandfather in that one, but that's about it.

Death's Door-I'd lost it for Bobby completely by this time, and as such his death didn't bother me at all, but the brothers' reactions to losing people they loved remained consistent. Dean was So. Angry. I just wish yet again, that they would have done more with all that Anger.

Torn and Frayed-I hate this episode with the fire of ten thousand suns and refuse to discuss it, other than to say that, IMO, it's just more that's gone unexplored by the writing and the writers of this show concerning Dean, even after all these years. Just more of the same old non-writing that continues to rankle me to no end concerning the Dean character to this very day.

Road Trip-Love Dean and Crowley. Always have. Always will.

The Hunter Games-That scene when Dean was torturing Metatron was Amazing in all ways, but especially the visuals. Dean's darker aspect is a very scary thing and this scene captured it, and why that is so, absolutely beautifully.

Devil in the Details-I can't remember this one. I might have skipped it.

Lily Sunder has some Regrets-I absolutely loved the diner scene when they were all squashed into the booth and the scene when the baddie was going to kill Dean to get to Cas.

Favorite-Dream a Little Dream of Me.

Least favorite-Torn and Frayed.

Edited January 4, 2018 by Myrelle

[catrox14]

16 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

e another appearance that still inspires many gifs to this very day. Beautiful. Beautiful. Beautiful.-as were his bloody knuckles on her alabaster thigh and her gentle touch of the handprint scar.

i didn't understand why she touched Cas/Jimmy's handprint scar at all. I always thought it was kind of creepy. like was she trying to erase it? Was she trying to feel Cas/angel energy via the handprint? Was she trying to feel what it would have been like to rescue Dean from Hell herself since she wasn't there? Its also really weird considering how Anna was in charge of the Garrison and was Castiels brother and why she's touching it during sex is even more weird.

Was she trying to heal Dean by erasing the scarduring sex?

[catrox14]

32 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

Devil in the Details-I can't remember this one. I might have skipped it.

It was mostly a Sam/ Lucifer episode and the one in which Castiel says yes to Lucifer, Dean doesn't pick up on Cas change of personality post possession, I guess because he was burned out after the literal cage fight with Lucifer v TFW. Casifer kills Rowena.

Dean is taken out of most of the action by the smiting sickness until he has to find Billie to get the witch trap thing and go back into Hell for the first time to save Sam and be a lesser fighter because of the smiting sickness.

[bozodegama]

38 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

i didn't understand why she touched Cas/Jimmy's handprint scar at all. I always thought it was kind of creepy. like was she trying to erase it? Was she trying to feel Cas/angel energy via the handprint? Was she trying to feel what it would have been like to rescue Dean from Hell herself since she wasn't there? Its also really weird considering how Anna was in charge of the Garrison and was Castiels brother and why she's touching it during sex is even more weird.

Was she trying to heal Dean by erasing the scarduring sex?

I think Anna was trying to be tender to Dean by touching his scar.  It was still her human part who was able to enjoy the intimacy of sex, touching, chocolate cake or whatever.  That was my take on that scene.  I don't think she was trying to heal him.  But i don't really know.

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, bozodegama said:

I think Anna was trying to be tender to Dean by touching his scar.  It was still her human part who was able to enjoy the intimacy of sex, touching, chocolate cake or whatever.  That was my take on that scene.  I don't think she was trying to heal him.  But i don't really know.

I agree that she was trying to have that intimacy. For me, if she had just touched it, like tracing it with her fingers it would have been less weird to me than her putting her entire hand on the scar mimicking it in a way.

[ILoveReading]

I took her touching it as a gesture of comfort.  That she touched it to show Dean that even thought she knew what he did, she understood.

[catrox14]

12 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I took her touching it as a gesture of comfort.  That she touched it to show Dean that even thought she knew what he did, she understood.

I would agree with that if she hadn't already told him she understood what he did and she forgave him before they had sex. That's what lead to their sexual encounter in the first place. 

It's not a big deal, but I just always thought it was weird and creepy. But that's just me. :)

[Res]

10 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I would agree with that if she hadn't already told him she understood what he did and she forgave him before they had sex. That's what lead to their sexual encounter in the first place. 

It's not a big deal, but I just always thought it was weird and creepy. But that's just me. :)

I always thought the whole sex scene in that episode was weird and creepy. It's one of the main reasons I hate that episode. It made no sense to me in the scene or the lead up. I mean I know Dean would always use sex to escape feelings and thinking but it really seems shoe-horned in there for the heck of it. IMO, it seemed forced and cheesy, especially the hand on the fogged window idiocy. It also didn't put Dean in great light considering not long after his "hot, fogged up window post-angel sex" he supposedly betrays her. Did I mention I hate this episode? I also hate Anna's character, for what it's worth. The whole thing was apparently played for that four letter word of the year that I never got, especially from this episode.

[DeeDee79]

7 hours ago, Res said:

I always thought the whole sex scene in that episode was weird and creepy. It's one of the main reasons I hate that episode. It made no sense to me in the scene or the lead up. I mean I know Dean would always use sex to escape feelings and thinking but it really seems shoe-horned in there for the heck of it. IMO, it seemed forced and cheesy, especially the hand on the fogged window idiocy. It also didn't put Dean in great light considering not long after his "hot, fogged up window post-angel sex" he supposedly betrays her. Did I mention I hate this episode? I also hate Anna's character, for what it's worth. The whole thing was apparently played for that four letter word of the year that I never got, especially from this episode.

I was never a fan either. I don't even remember the episode that much because I didn't really care for it.

[DittyDotDot]

9 hours ago, Res said:

I always thought the whole sex scene in that episode was weird and creepy. It's one of the main reasons I hate that episode. It made no sense to me in the scene or the lead up. I mean I know Dean would always use sex to escape feelings and thinking but it really seems shoe-horned in there for the heck of it. IMO, it seemed forced and cheesy, especially the hand on the fogged window idiocy. It also didn't put Dean in great light considering not long after his "hot, fogged up window post-angel sex" he supposedly betrays her. Did I mention I hate this episode? I also hate Anna's character, for what it's worth. The whole thing was apparently played for that four letter word of the year that I never got, especially from this episode.

I was fine with Anna as a character, more or less, but I was never a fan of this sex scene either. It was supposed to be their last hurrah, but they made it this weirdly sappy thing that just didn't fit Dean or the story. I kinda laugh during the whole thing because it's just too goofy. I kinda think it's a good thing the show doesn't try to do these sorts of storylines and scenes often, they don't seem to ever get them quite right.

[Pondlass1]

For such a provocative and charismatic actor  - Jensen doesn't seem to have much luck when it comes to love interests on the show.  Anna, Jo, Lisa, Cassie.... all fell flat for me.  Maybe it was the actress or the writing or even my own jealousy, I don't know.  But sexual tension always seems missing, except maybe with Pamela who I could visualize having a wild romp with Dean - but they chose not to go there.

Dean does click with some women but it's often a  miscellaneous guest star, the female psychiatrist in Sam Interrupted for instance or even Ann Marie (of Demon Dean fame)

Scripts should stick to flirting and one night stands for Dean.  He only has three real loves...Sam, Baby and Hunting.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Pondlass1 said:

He only has three real loves...Sam, Baby and Hunting

And Cas..I don't care if viewers dislike Cas, it's canon that Cas is family for Dean.  Not even talking about Destiel. Dean was devastated by Cas' death and was so happy when he came back that he didn't even question it. So yeah Cas is right there with Sam, Baby, and hunting.

[Wayward Son]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

And Cas..I don't care if viewers dislike Cas, it's canon that Cas is family for Dean.  Not even talking about Destiel. Dean was devastated by Cas' death and was so happy when he came back that he didn't even question it. So yeah Cas is right there with Sam, Baby, and hunting.

And Mary! Again, even if a viewer doesn’t like her Dean does love his mother. Dean’s great loves would be best described as Family (blood or otherwise), Baby and hunting with Sam slightly above everything else IMO. 

Edited January 3, 2018 by Wayward Son

[catrox14]

17 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

And Mary! Again, even if a viewer doesn’t like her Dean does love his mother. Dean’s great loves would be best described as Family (blood or otherwise), Baby and hunting with Sam slightly above everything else IMO. 

Fair point on Mary. Throw in John, Bobby, and Charlie too.

[Wayward Son]

14 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Fair point on Mary. Throw in John, Bobby, and Charlie too.

Agreed on those! That’s honestly why I said the trio of Family, Baby and Hunting would be best! The word family emphasises what is important to Dean without trying to list every individual he has come to care for throughout the shows history :)

[gonzosgirrl]

Unpopular opinion? I don't think Dean loves hunting so much any more. I realize that recently as last season he declared his pride/belief  in what they do to Mary, and I believe that. But I think after the losses and betrayals over the last while, that he could and would walk away given the chance. I've thought for a while now that they are writing toward Dean's demise, but I've also begun to think that it could be the end of his hunting life that's on the horizon.  

[Pondlass1]

Hunting is in his blood.  I don't see him walking away ever. He's been through worse.  Sam dying (for good) would be the only reason he'd stop and I'm scared to think what he would become.  Probably a drunken recluse. 

 The show ending with Dean's death and Sam continuing on alone would be terrible.  There'd be rioting in the streets.  I'd be rioting anyway.

I want them both going down fighting. 

[ILoveReading]

3 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

Hunting is in his blood.  I don't see him walking away ever. He's been through worse.  Sam dying (for good) would be the only reason he'd stop and I'm scared to think what he would become.  Probably a drunken recluse. 

 The show ending with Dean's death and Sam continuing on alone would be terrible.  There'd be rioting in the streets.  I'd be rioting anyway.

I want them both going down fighting. 

I coudn't think of a worse ending then Sam dying for good and Dean becoming a drunken recluse.  He's stronger than that.  He thought Sam was gone for good in s6 but he still managed to go on.

Dean is such an iconic character that to see him fizzle out in that kind of ending is such a disservice to the character Jensen created.  I hope they at least let him go out with dignity if he doesn't go out in a blaze of glory.

If Dean hunted without Sam, it wouldn't' bother me. 

Edited January 3, 2018 by ILoveReading

[gonzosgirrl]

I think Dean has come farther than diving into a bottle should Sam die for good. Jensen said it himself, for that matter - that he would trade the Impala for a bike and drive off into the sunset.

[bozodegama]

Dean's loves in order:

1.  Family

2.  Hunting

3.  Baby

4.  Alcohol

5.  Cheeseburgers and Pie

6.  Sex   #4 and #6 can be interchangeable depending on whats going on

IMO, The show ends like the show Angel. In a  Butch and Sundance moment where the boys are facing incredible odds and the last scene is them trying to fight their way out of an impossible situation.  That way, they could still do a movie by bringing the boys back or showing how their teleported out of the situation.  Anything else would be anti-climactic.  

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Unpopular opinion? I don't think Dean loves hunting so much any more. I realize that recently as last season he declared his pride/belief  in what they do to Mary, and I believe that. But I think after the losses and betrayals over the last while, that he could and would walk away given the chance. I've thought for a while now that they are writing toward Dean's demise, but I've also begun to think that it could be the end of his hunting life that's on the horizon.  

 

 

1 hour ago, Pondlass1 said:

Hunting is in his blood.  I don't see him walking away ever. He's been through worse.  Sam dying (for good) would be the only reason he'd stop and I'm scared to think what he would become.  Probably a drunken recluse. 

 The show ending with Dean's death and Sam continuing on alone would be terrible.  There'd be rioting in the streets.  I'd be rioting anyway.

I want them both going down fighting. 

I agree that Dean doesn't love hunting as much as he did. I still think it's like he will likely die hunting, but it might not be a satisfying way for him to die anymore.

I don't think hunting was ever in Dean's blood not really. He was raised into the hunting life at 4 years old and was made to be a parent to Sam as well as a big brother. But I don't believe it was ever in his DNA per se. It became his raison d'etre because of so many reasons that IMO have little to do with Dean's nature so to speak. Given the focus on  Jack and nature vs nurture, I think it's worth looking into Dean's life in the back half of s13 with that as well.

I have had moments where I think maybe s12 and 13 are sneakily telling us something about Dean's life with nature vs nurture going back to Regarding Dean.  Look at his choices and personality without all the memories of hunting life. He was so free of the heaviness at moments when he didn't remember his life. I think that is the biggest part of  Jensen's performance in Regarding Dean that really struck me. (That man needs a goddamn emmy, golden globe, whatever award or at least a damn lifetime achievement award FFS).

Yes, Dean still knew how to fire a weapon because he's done it his entire life daily I think well at least since he was 6 I think and he remembered Sam when Sam was in danger over his own name which was lovely and loving but IMO speaks a lot to what became Dean's mostly sole focus in his life that happened when he was so young, he couldn't really say no to it. I think there are things with Dean that became his choices but a lot was pathological because it arose from childhood trauma. This discussion has prompted me to do a hiatus rewatch of Dean post Regarding Dean. I've felt since the episode aired that the  montage with Dream On Little Cowboy was the beginning of Dean's long goodbye which I thought was his impending death. But maybe @gonzosgirrl is spot on that Dean might be thinking about giving up hunting for other endeavors so the long goodbye is really to his previous life and attachments and finally finding out who he really is of his own accord vs what he was raised to be.  He would still love and care about Sam but maybe not make those same choices.

I don't think Dean would be a drunken recluse either. I remember back in the day when Dean was perfectly capable of getting on with his life and did so when Sam was at college. And at this point, he's also learned to love people besides Sam and his parents. He loves Castiel. He grew to love Charlie. He kind of loved Lisa but that was never going to work for him. He's expanded his life but he also had already loved someone away from Sam and that was Cassie. I mean yes it was 12 years ago but he's done it before.

spoilers for s13

Spoiler

I really do wonder if the Sister Jo character will be someone who shows Dean a different life. I absolutely will not put it past the show to have Jensen's actual wife become an end game romance for Dean. I hope that doesn't happen but I am definitely not going to think it wouldn't happen either.

I will say that it's always bothered me that part of Dean's character has been altered and the narrative implies he's totally incapable of functioning without Sam and that's not true IMO.  I think he felt apart when Cas died because after his multiple resurrections Dean didn't think Cas would ever really die. I think it was a shock to Dean's entire system and that sent him spiraling especially when Chuck didn't answer his prayer right away. 

I think what has been true of Dean is that he still can't live with Sam dead which I will argue till I'm blue in the face is why Dean sold his soul and allowed Gadreel to possess Sam, and why he made a deal with Billie to save Sam in s11. The Save Sammy directive is the thing that causes him the most problems in his life IMO (and this is not a BvJ thing). It's how Dean was indoctrinated at a young age to always put Sammy first which has messed up his life and others IMO.   But yeah, Dean will not IMO let Sam die if he can prevent it.

The only thing that makes me question my theory on Dean dying is that his challenge has been letting Sam go, so in some ways him dying before Sam would be a kind of a cop out on that major character thing with Dean. Them dying together would not resolve that issue for Dean. I have conflicting thoughts on all that. LOL 

[AwesomO4000]

On 1/2/2018 at 0:02 PM, catrox14 said:

Dean is taken out of most of the action by the smiting sickness until he has to find Billie to get the witch trap thing and go back into Hell for the first time to save Sam and be a lesser fighter because of the smiting sickness.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I still don't get why this is such an issue and is supposedly some slight to Dean's character. If Dean had gone on along with Castiel to confront Amara, what exactly different would have happened besides Dean not realizing that Sam was doing something stupid and needed saving? It's not like Castiel did anything of importance heroically during that scene. He talked to accountant angel (who I liked by the way, so it's too bad she got soul-sucked)) and then got overpowered by Amara. If Dean had been there, Amara would have entirely taken over his will and delayed him for her own amusement because that's what she likes to do when it comes to Dean - which is why I say Dean would not have been able to figure out that Sam was in trouble when he did. It's not like Dean and Amara would've had some sort of showdown where Dean defeated her or even made a dent, because that wasn't in the cards for the plot at that point... So basically, Castiel's function in that scene was to find out and let everyone know that Amara was still alive... something not really earth-shattering and not something two people were needed for, in my opinion.

I much preferred that Dean got to instead interact with Crowley, find out that Sam needed help, and then got to meet Billie. In other words: his own scenes and not as a tag along to Castiel's scene. Besides, I like to think that one of the reasons that Castiel said yes to Lucifer was because Amara messed with him and made him feel like a failure, and so he was more susceptible to saying "yes" to Lucifer. If Dean had gone along, he would have supported Cass, and Cass' feelings of failure in that regard wouldn't have made as much sense - at least to me anyway. For me, there really wasn't a whole lot of "action" that Dean missed due to the smiting sickness. What he did miss was getting delayed by Amara, but that's about it in my opinion. As I said, it wasn't like there was going to be an epic battle at this point in the narrative between the two.

As for the fighting, they were battling Lucifer... in an antechamber of hell. In my opinion, the only reason why they weren't all dead in an instant was because Lucifer was enjoying being his usual ass self and playing with his food. To me, it didn't matter if Dean had effects of smiting sickness or not... he still would've been no match for Lucifer, because he's Lucifer. I'm not sure how smiting sickness somehow made him a "lesser fighter." If anything, that he battled through and got stuff done and actually went to save Sam despite the sickness shows how tough Dean is and how he puts what's important*** over his own comfort, but I get that Miles Vary on that one.

*** In this case making sure Sam doesn't do something stupid like say "yes" and/or let Lucifer out.

Edited January 3, 2018 by AwesomO4000

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Maybe I'm missing something, but I still don't get why this is such an issue and is supposedly some slight to Dean's character. If Dean had gone on along with Castiel to confront Amara, what exactly different would have happened besides Dean not realizing that Sam was doing something stupid and needed saving? It's not like Castiel did anything of importance heroically during that scene. He talked to accountant angel (who I liked by the way, so it's too bad she got soul-sucked)) and then got overpowered by Amara. If

? I never said it was a slight to Dean's character. I was explaining what happened in the episode from a Dean centric perspective and why maybe it wasn't particular memorable as a Dean centric episode since it was mostly about Sam and Lucifer, which is not a criticism. Sorry, I don't understand the issue here.

[catrox14]

The smiting sickness was stupid though IMO. Sam was already at the Cage anyway, so why make Dean sick at all?  It's kind of like when they smashed Dean's leg in 12.22 to make sure he couldn't go into the fight with Sam.

I do think Dean might have  gotten in some bigger licks on Lucifer had he been in top fighting form but I wasn't suggesting that Dean would have beaten Lucifer. I'm not sure why you think that's what I meant.

It was basically radiation sickness so he wouldn't be as strong. It was just dumb is my opinion. I just didn't see what they couldn't have a fully functional Dean in the fight with Lucifer. It didn't make any sense to me at all. That's all I'm saying. 

Edited January 3, 2018 by catrox14

[Casseiopeia]

Jensen cracks me up...

 

[AwesomO4000]

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

? I never said it was a slight to Dean's character. I was explaining what happened in the episode from a Dean centric perspective and why maybe it wasn't particular memorable as a Dean centric episode since it was mostly about Sam and Lucifer, which is not a criticism. Sorry, I don't understand the issue here.

I think it was the "taken out of most of the action" and "be a lesser fighter" parts - and previous comments about this I've seen, I must admit - that had me interpreting your comments as implying some sort of slight and/or conscious effort to sideline Dean during the episode. I apologize if that was not what you were implying.

I guess I also see things differently in terms of episodes, because for me, an episode doesn't have to be Dean-centric in order to have good Dean scenes or be a memorable Dean episode, and I might even prefer Dean in those episodes compared to a Dean-centric episode which I feel is awful (examples, for me: "Yellow Fever" or "The Curious Case..." and in Sam's case, "Swap Meat" and "I think I'm Gonna Like It Here"). One of my favorite episodes for Dean, for example - and I admit, it's arguably a strange choice - is "Ghostfacers." While Dean is not the focus, I love the third person view of Dean and how Dean's behavior is so him and illustrative of why he is so good with people and is such a natural leader. And it is all done subtly and within the context of others being the focus. Despite Dean not being the focus, for me it was still a memorable Dean episode. It's always going to be on the top 10 list of my favorite episodes for Dean.

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

The smiting sickness was stupid though IMO. Sam was already at the Cage anyway, so why make Dean sick at all? 

My theory is that it had nothing to do really with Sam or Dean. As I hinted at, I think the reason Dean got smiting sickness and couldn't go with Castiel was to make sure that Castiel was isolated and vulnerable to Amara's influence which would then feed into why Castiel said "yes" to Lucifer. Even accountant angel was there to feed into that storyline in the way that she was talking about how she and Castiel were there because they were expendable and that yes, Castiel was present during the apocalypse saving, but really it was Sam and Dean who were the heroes. So much so, that until I saw Amara sucking accountant angel's soul, I wondered if she was really a manifestation of Amara's - like the scenario that the reaper made to influence Dean in "In My Time of Dying" - to mess with Castiel and somehow get him out of the way (so that she could eventually have Dean more for herself).

So I think that's why Dean got smiting sickness. It was a cheap and easy way for Castiel to have to go on alone and be vulnerable to Amara's influence while at the same time not hindering Dean in the future plotlines he was needed for. For example, something like Amara clouding Dean's mind so that he wouldn't be able to support Castiel would make more sense, but it would be a little bit trickier to get Dean out of that plotwise while still having Castiel be influenced by Amara and not entirely focused on Dean and helping Dean. Dean conveniently getting smiting sickness so that he couldn't go with Castiel accomplished what I think Dabb wanted - Castiel alone but not worried about Dean, so that he instead could be obsessing about how he (Castiel) was "expendable" and how he wanted to help and make a difference... without anyone - in this case Dean - to tell him that he was needed and important.

4 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I do think Dean might have  gotten in some bigger licks on Lucifer had he been in top fighting form but I wasn't suggesting that Dean would have beaten Lucifer. I'm not sure why you think that's what I meant.

I wasn't suggesting that you were, so I apologize if that's what it looked like. What I said was that the only reason Sam, Dean, and Castiel weren't obliterated by Lucifer immediately was because he was having fun playing with his food. That's not really meaning that Dean could've beaten him, but that theoretically they shouldn't even have been able to be fighting with Lucifer to begin with except that Lucifer allowed it (in my opinion). If Dean was even still affected by the smiting sickness, I don't think it would have made much difference relatively. Theoretically Lucifer could have snapped both of their necks and exploded Castiel with a snap of his fingers. He was likely only letting Dean get in any "licks" because it amused him... or at least in canon that makes the most sense. Physical punches from humans aren't even supposed to hurt angels when angels are at full power as far as we know.

4 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I just didn't see what they couldn't have a fully functional Dean in the fight with Lucifer. It didn't make any sense to me at all. That's all I'm saying. 

I think it was more a function of they couldn't have a fully capable Dean with Castiel, but also not a situation where Castiel would worry about Dean.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I think it was the "taken out of most of the action" and "be a lesser fighter" parts - and previous comments about this I've seen, I must admit - that had me interpreting your comments as implying some sort of slight and/or conscious effort to sideline Dean during the episode. I apologize if that was not what you were implying

I don't understand. It was intentionally written for Dean to not be in the fight until after Sam was in the Cage. And it was written for Dean to be felled by smiting sickness so that Cas had to deal with Amara and have her screw him around which lead to him  saying yes to Lucifer. I'm pretty straightforward when I think the writing is screwing over Dean and I don't really mince words on that.

I was pissed about no one bothering to mention that Dean was going back to Hell again for the first time. That was kind of a big deal that wasn't brought up but I don't think it was because the writers hate Dean, I think it wasn't considered in the script by Dabb because the episode was focused on Sam and Lucifer and Cas. IMO Dean was there to move the plot forward.  I don't think it was done because Dabb was slighting Dean because he hates Dean (I think that slighting happened in s12 but that's not what this was about ). 

 Anyway, the original point of my comment in the first place was that the commenter didn't remember what happened in that episode so I gave the cliffs' notes version of that episode because the thread was about Dean's role in these episodes. I wasn't making any kind of comment about Sam's role (which I would put in the Sam thread anyway for that kind of analysis) or if it was going to become B v J I would take it there. 

[Res]

11 hours ago, catrox14 said:

 

I will say that it's always bothered me that part of Dean's character has been altered and the narrative implies he's totally incapable of functioning without Sam and that's not true IMO.  I think he felt apart when Cas died because after his multiple resurrections Dean didn't think Cas would ever really die. I think it was a shock to Dean's entire system and that sent him spiraling especially when Chuck didn't answer his prayer right away. 

I think what has been true of Dean is that he still can't live with Sam dead which I will argue till I'm blue in the face is why Dean sold his soul and allowed Gadreel to possess Sam, and why he made a deal with Billie to save Sam in s11. The Save Sammy directive is the thing that causes him the most problems in his life IMO (and this is not a BvJ thing). It's how Dean was indoctrinated at a young age to always put Sammy first which has messed up his life and others IMO.   But yeah, Dean will not IMO let Sam die if he can prevent it.

The only thing that makes me question my theory on Dean dying is that his challenge has been letting Sam go, so in some ways him dying before Sam would be a kind of a cop out on that major character thing with Dean.

I absolutely HATE with a passion of a thousand suns the narrative (and some fans) implying that Dean is incapable of functioning without Sam or that Dean and Sam MUST be together and TALKING (ie on the "same page", etc.) or that Dean MUST LOVE Sam ABOVE ALL ELSE! All of these things weaken both the storylines and the character which is very obvious these past seasons. I do completely agree with the rest of the second paragraph. As for the last line, while I see what you are saying, I honestly do not believe that TPTB have ever, or will ever, think about Dean's character development unless it relates in some way to what they want to do with Sam, like having Dean let go of Sam enough to have Sam take the stupid swan dive in that horrible finale. Which now that I mention that, Dean has already let Sam go in that way, more than once, so it's become like Sam's stupidly redundant, IMO, redemption arcs where it doesn't matter how many times he does it, it still doesn't take. (which is why I call them stupidly redundant).  So how else do you figure Dean needs to let him go?

Honestly, I hope you and @gonzosgirrl are wrong and Dean is headed for a final death because he really has had it in several ways and I believe that's the only peace for him. Then Sam can retire down to a semi-normal life and become the Bobby for the Wayward Sisters. Unless they ruin/change Dean's character more, he wouldn't be the Bobby type and would be on the road hunting, so the only one who can carry on the MOL stuff would be Sam, not because of smarts, but because he's ok without being on the front line. Sam's okay with leading a normal life and being a researcher for other hunters. I would find this ending more realistic to the brothers, if the show doesn't do a Butch Cassidy type thing. But I don't see Dean ever not hunting.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Res said:

  So how else do you figure Dean needs to let him go?

Heh. TBH, I kind of forgot about Swan Song. So you're right Dean has already been down that path. So yeah, I'll stick with Dean dying or finding a different life especially if  Sam dies before him.

[Pondlass1]

If Sam dies first (and it takes) and if Dean continues to hunt - well, he's going to be one reckless impulsive hunter not caring if he lives or dies. He has literally shown us he will die for Sam over and over again.  Dad did a real number on his young son.

I think my take on Dean is much different to everyone else's. But that's fine.  Jensen gives us all something to grab onto and embrace but for me  his performance rarely attempts to smooth the rough edges of this iconic character. Which I admire.

Great discussions, guys!  :)

[gonzosgirrl]

49 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

If Sam dies first (and it takes) and if Dean continues to hunt - well, he's going to be one reckless impulsive hunter not caring if he lives or dies. He has literally shown us he will die for Sam over and over again.  Dad did a real number on his young son.

I think my take on Dean is much different to everyone else's. But that's fine.  Jensen gives us all something to grab onto and embrace but for me  his performance rarely attempts to smooth the rough edges of this iconic character. Which I admire.

Great discussions, guys!  :)

He has shown us he'd die to save Sam. But if Sam is beyond saving, I don't think he'll fling himself into the sea. He's shown he can live without Sam - not that he would like it, but that he can live with it. That doesn't mean he's willing to let it happen for nothing or that he'll be dancing on his grave, but I don't see him needing to follow his brother to the grave. 

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Pondlass1 said:

If Sam dies first (and it takes) and if Dean continues to hunt - well, he's going to be one reckless impulsive hunter not caring if he lives or dies. He has literally shown us he will die for Sam over and over again.  Dad did a real number on his young son.

There is a difference between Dean dying to save Sam or taking an extreme action to ensure Sam will live and Dean being unable to continue living if he Sam dies.  The problem for Dean is that if Dean sold his soul again to save Sam, then he will have repeated the same problem that caused the apocalypse so he can't really do that again. And why would he put himself in actual Hell again? That would be crazy.

Grief and loss screw with your head. I know this from personal experience and said grief is different for everyone.   I was pissed and disgusted with Dabb and Berens for Red Meat and Dean wanting to die by werewolf. That sickened me and it is not romantic or good and I see it being hailed as a great brothers loving moment. REALLY?

I could deal with him wanting to stay with Death in 13.05 because the show wasn't presenting it as a "romantic" or good thing. It was clear that Dean felt like a burden because of his grief and he failed at his job, in his mind, which included being unable to save that kid. It was presented as being a "bad" or unnecessary thing by Sam telling him to not inject himself and Billie recognizing that he wanted to die. Maybe Dean didn't even think he wanted to die until she pointed it out. It was not romanticized at all IMO vs Red Meat. (I'm not talking about his OD which he did to make a deal to save Sam because Sam had to be alive to fight Amara. It's still not great but not the same was his sudden desire to die because Sam was dead). In s13, IMO Dean was giving up slowly and he didn't really know it until Billie pointed it out IMO. I felt it was an earned thing for Dean and not shown to be a wonderful choice for Dean. 

Dean accepted Sam's fate in Swan Song as I was reminded of,  and strove to get him out of Hell. He drank too much for a long time but he seemed to get it together after some time, and then  Sam showed up. It took him awhile but he adapted. 

Do people think Dean would kill himself if Sam died from say, cancer or something? I just don't think that would happen. Not at this point of Dean's life.

[Casseiopeia]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Dean wanting to die by werewolf.

That is an interesting take on that scene.  I thought Dean wanted to kill the werewolves that killed his brother.  I never thought of it as he wanted to die.  I thought Corbin said Dean would die in order to save himself and Michelle.  Dean was sad when he left Sam behind but he didn't really hesitate. 

[catrox14]

17 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

That is an interesting take on that scene.  I thought Dean wanted to kill the werewolves that killed his brother.  I never thought of it as he wanted to die.  I thought Corbin said Dean would die in order to save himself and Michelle.  Dean was sad when he left Sam behind but he didn't really hesitate. 

Oh, I thought from the moment Dean realized that Sam was dead that he was willing to die by werewolf. Corbin told Dean there were too many for him to face

It was pretty clear to me he wanted suicide by werewolf

From the transcript

Quote

Michelle [walking behind the counter]: Corbin? Is... is he...

Corbin: Dead.

Michelle looks at Corbin, the desperation still etched on his face.

Moments later, the door opens and Dean enters the cabin.

Dean: We got to go. [He sees Sam lying motionless on the floor.] Sam? Sammy?

Dean rushes to Sam’s side, looks at him in confusion, and feels for a pulse.

Dean: What happened?

Corbin: I... I... I don't know. He just went.

Dean: No. Sammy?

Dean gently shakes Sam’s body; grief-stricken, tears welling.

Dean [softly]: Sammy

There is the sound of a vehicle approaching.

Michelle: No, no, no.

Corbin [hugging Michelle]: It's them.

Dean [coldly, pulling a silver knife from its sheath]: Let 'em come.

Michelle: No. What?

Corbin: He wants to stay.

Michelle [desperately]: No, you can't!

Corbin: Hey, hey, you stay, you fight, you die. And so do we. Look...he's gone. I'm sorry, but he's gone. Help us. Please.

Dean, his eyes brimming with tears, looks at Corbin and then at Michelle. They are afraid and desperate, and he knows that he needs to save them. He looks at Sam and leans down so he is close to his brother.

Dean [voice shaking]: I'm gonna come back for you, okay? I promise. [He smiles sadly]. Okay. Okay. [He stands up.] Let's go.

He said "Let em come" knowing he would be outnumbered.  He couldn't take them all on his own. There were at least 3 werewolves and one had a gun which is why Sam was shot. I think he fully wanted to die and would take out as many as he could before he died himself. It took Corbin convincing him to help them before he would give up that "fight". 

Edited January 4, 2018 by catrox14

[gonzosgirrl]

14 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Oh, I thought from the moment Dean realized that Sam was dead that he was willing to die by werewolf. Corbin told Dean there were too many for him to face

It was pretty clear to me he wanted suicide by werewolf

From the transcript

He said "Let em come" knowing he would be outnumbered.  He couldn't take them all on his own. There were at least 3 werewolves and one had a gun which is why Sam was shot. I think he fully wanted to die and would take out as many as he could before he died himself. It took Corbin convincing him to help them before he would give up that "fight". 

I don't agree - I think he said let 'em come believing he could and would kill them all to avenge Sam. I think there's a difference between being willing to die and suicide. I don't think Dean has ever been suicidal except in the days before 11x23 when he finally realized he could never escape the Mark or its effects. Suicide-by-Death (heheh) was absolutely his goal then.

[bozodegama]

Deans not giving up hunting, even if Sammy died.  It’s in his blood.  He’s said that many times.  He tried for a normal life with Lisa but like he said,  what he’s really good at is killing monsters (I think he said slicing throats).  The show is not going to end with Sam or Deans dead.  Maybe both of them but not just one.  If they have just Dean or Sam die at the end then I’m going to throw my tv out the window.  Also, Dean knows that if Sam (or Cass) is alive and he dies, one of them will try to bring him back.  Death (Billy) won’t even allow Dean to die.  He has work to do.

[catrox14]

49 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I don't agree - I think he said let 'em come believing he could and would kill them all to avenge Sam. I think there's a difference between being willing to die and suicide. I don't think Dean has ever been suicidal except in the days before 11x23 when he finally realized he could never escape the Mark or its effects. Suicide-by-Death (heheh) was absolutely his goal then.

It's not just the dialogue but how Jensen played it that I thought Dean had decided to call it a day.

Dean is not a stupid hunter. IMO, if Dean didn't want to die along side Sam, and he was intending to survive, he wouldn't take on the werewolves alone. YES he wanted to kill the werewolves but IMO he had no intention of surviving. That's why I'm calling it suicide by werewolf.

That whole scene was terrible in retrospect. It was great acting by Jensen but the contrivances are ridiculous. IMO, Dean wouldn't have given up on Sam being dead that quickly. He would have tried to resuscitate Sam. He wouldn't have taken their word for any of it considering that earlier they had told him they should leave Sam behind and Dean was ready to go off on Corbin for that infraction. That's why he went outside to build the litter. IMO, the only reason Dean took their word is that he was in shock and instant grief and was not thinking clearly.

He would have put Sam's body on the litter anyway, dragged it back to the car and made the couple help him do it and fight the werewolves along the way.  And given the intentional suicide to get to Billie, Dean was still not really caring if he didn't survive. I mean he was intending to be resuscitated by the doctor and at the same time he said if this doesn't work it doesn't matter if I'm dead.  So that's kind of suicidal as well. And sudden shock and grief can, absolutely, lead to rash and poor decision making because nothing else seems to matter in that moment. Not doing things to ensure your well being is at worst self-defeating and possible a bit of slow suicide and at best neglect born of depression. I think that is what Dean was doing in Red Meat.  We'll have to agree to disagree on this one :)

I will say in general, I'm bothered by how often , under Dabb's watch, Dean has exhibited suicidal behavior be it actively seeking death or just not caring if he lived after something happened.

[Diane]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I don't agree - I think he said let 'em come believing he could and would kill them all to avenge Sam. I think there's a difference between being willing to die and suicide. I don't think Dean has ever been suicidal except in the days before 11x23 when he finally realized he could never escape the Mark or its effects. Suicide-by-Death (heheh) was absolutely his goal then.

This I agree with, he did not seem suicidal at all. But then this has been argued over way to much, I didn't think he was suicidal when he took the pills to speak with Billie. He even told the girl how to save him.