Dean Winchester: aka Squirrel

[Aeryn13]

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I don't think it matters where or who these people were. Whether he was torturing Pollyanna or Pol Pot, torturing is evil. I don't even care that it was done in Hell; torturing is always wrong.

I think it matters that he himself was tortured into it. If that was me, you wouldn`t even have to lay a hand on me, show me a rusty spoon and imply you will take out my eye with it and you betcha I will do just about anything to escape that.

[catrox14]

Just to be clear. My bringing up Deans alcohol consumption is not a criticism of Dean at all.

 I just saw something in The Raid that struck me about Dean with accepting the scotch from Ketch thatade me wonder if the show was using Deans drinking as a sign post for him taking a darker turn for the rest of the season.

I wouldn't be surprised because right now I don't think Dean has an actual SL. It's kind of reminiscent of s7 to a degree. Hes got some great emotional beats but they don't seem to be leading to anything.

Dean is the reactor this season. He's reacting to Mary, Sam, Cas and now Ketch. When he tries to do something like be angry with Mary it's basically meaningless because he ends up kind of apologizing for his own valid issues. I feel like Dean is drifting from scene to scene. He got a story with Regarding Dean and he killed Hitler, which big get but not tied to anything else thus far, unless something comes up later. He and Sam escaped the pen but they shouldn't have been captured in the first place. They had to be idiots for that to happen.

 This isn't bitterness either. It's just odd. Even in past  seasons when he wasn't the mytharc person I felt like his presence was needed if tangentially. I don't feel that  way this year other than for Regarding Dean which was about Dean but also about how Sam coped with Dean's plight. I feel like BMOL is a Mary/Sam SL more than Dean's or at least I did until Ketch showed up.

[catrox14]

39 minutes ago, rue721 said:

The kind of thing I'm thinking of is, Dean and Sam are alone together A LOT. If Dean is always in his cups, that would have to be really maddening for Sam. He has nobody sensible that he can talk to then. In that context, it's no wonder that Sam acts so exasperated by Dean's jokes ;)

I don't think Dean's sense of humor and Sam's inability to appreciate Dean's sense of humor are in direct correlation with Dean's level of inebriation.  I'm pretty sure Dean's been a punster and a dork since they were kids. Sam just doesn't appreciate it. :P

[AwesomO4000]

13 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Where were they going with it? There was enough emphasis on it that I can believe it was a plot point, and that was also the season of Sam's Hellucinations, so Dean having mental problems would have been in keeping with the other storylines in the season....

But I can't really think where they wanted (or would have wanted) that plot to go?

Just speculation on my part: My thought is that maybe it would've had something to do with the combination of Dean getting a win with Dick Roman* and seeing that he could live through purgatory without drinking that would have maybe had him questioning when he returned whether it was worth starting up drinking again when things got complicated in the real world. Maybe it would've tied in with the "complicated" world vs "pure" purgatory thing that Carver hinted at, but in my opinion didn't really explore all that much in depth (because to me, Dean seemed to adapt to being back to the regular world fairly easily - more easily than I would have expected considering his purgatory stint.)

Because if I think about it (I think, because I'm not much of a drinker myself, so I'm going on what I observe) the adrenaline rush and living in the moment payoff of purgatory - to me anyway - would seem to be an almost opposite effect from the escape of mellowing alcohol. So if Dean had come back from purgatory truly changed by his experience, would he even crave the mellowing effect of alcohol anymore or would he want to recreate the "rush" and simplicity of a nice, black and white, no question about it monster kill? Would he then have to go back to alcohol to "come down" or was his body so used to being "on" that he didn't want to come down again - or maybe alcohol wouldn't even be enough anymore and only exhaustion would make him stop and rest/relax? And then this could've potentially contrasted with Sam's maybe not wanting to "get started" again, because he'd stagnated / taken himself out of the game for so long - at least have some real purpose to Sam being sidelined for that year - and so together they would have had to find a more healthy middle ground between the two.

It might be just me, but I think that would've been something interesting for the writers to explore.

*And I know a lot of people don't think Dick Roman was a plot point for Dean, but I disagree. I think one of the only things that kept Dean from going over the edge with his drinking in season 7 was that he latched on to Dick Roman instead as his new "obsession" and thing to drown himself in. His research may not have gotten him very far - but then again Frank himself fell down quite a few rabbit holes before he found useful information - but it did give Dean something to focus on... to the point that Sam was worried about Dean researching too much - which then you know there's a problem. And for Dean to be able to see that through by killing Dick Roman was a good thing, even if the revenge wasn't as releasing as he hoped it would be**... another reason that "peace" wasn't exactly in the cards and so maybe the adrenaline rush was more attractive.

** I've also thought that it would've been awesome for Dean to have to face Dick Roman multiple times in purgatory - winning, losing, whatever - but again feeding into that loop of black and white, no messy decisions, just easy answers and the intense but fleeting payoff of revenge thing. Of course if Dean lost sometimes, there would have had to be some excuse of why Dean stayed in purgatory, but I would've handwaved it to see Dean and Dick interact some more.

[ILoveReading]

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Just to be clear. My bringing up Deans alcohol consumption is not a criticism of Dean at all.

 I just saw something in The Raid that struck me about Dean with accepting the scotch from Ketch thatade me wonder if the show was using Deans drinking as a sign post for him taking a darker turn for the rest of the season.

I wouldn't be surprised because right now I don't think Dean has an actual SL. It's kind of reminiscent of s7 to a degree. Hes got some great emotional beats but they don't seem to be leading to anything.

Dean is the reactor this season. He's reacting to Mary, Sam, Cas and now Ketch. When he tries to do something like be angry with Mary it's basically meaningless because he ends up kind of apologizing for his own valid issues. I feel like Dean is drifting from scene to scene. He got a story with Regarding Dean and he killed Hitler, which big get but not tied to anything else thus far, unless something comes up later. He and Sam escaped the pen but they shouldn't have been captured in the first place. They had to be idiots for that to happen.

 This isn't bitterness either. It's just odd. Even in past  seasons when he wasn't the mytharc person I felt like his presence was needed if tangentially. I don't feel that  way this year other than for Regarding Dean which was about Dean but also about how Sam coped with Dean's plight. I feel like BMOL is a Mary/Sam SL more than Dean's or at least I did until Ketch showed up.

I never saw your posts as criticism.  I've always enjoyed discussions on Dean's mental state.  It's like a minefield and interesting to see how different people navigate it.

I agree with your whole post.    I'm not sure what the writers are planning but two epsisode really stand out in why I agree with what you wrote.

When Sam's had the mytharc, Dean's role has been that of "big brother" but I think that part of why Dean feels aimless this season.  Usually in eps like American Nightmare, and The Raid, when Sam's in trouble Dean storms off and usually rescues Sam.  Both times we've seen that Sam really didn't need him in either situation.  What's Dean's role if Sam can bale himself out every time.  (Don't mean that as bitter, just something I question when I watch this season)

Its not all bad.  There has been a lot of character moments I've enjoyed, and in particular Asa Fox and Regarding Dean.  (  I like that he's speaking up more and I hope it continues. 

I feel the same way about Ketch that I do a lot of characters.  They become more interesting when they're attached to Dean.  I can see the two of them becoming frenimies.  I'd like to see that play out more

I think how the rest of the season goes or if we get Dark Dean will depend on how the writers approach the Men of Letters thing.  Like I mentioned earlier the framing of the final scene could easily suggest a Sam/Mary against Dean.  With Dean being allowed to maintain his POV and accepting that Sam and Mary are working with the Brits but not joining actively joining them.   Then I can see Dean feeling rejected and heading down that dark road again.

But more then likely, I think we'll just a rehash of s4 and Ruby, except without the secrets and lies.  Dean will agree to work with them but he won't really be on board. 

I'd prefer the former even if it meant splitting the brothers up during mytharc eps.  It's new territory.  It could lead to character growth for Dean.  But I don't see them shaking up the status quo that much, so I suspect we'll just retread the same ground. 

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I feel the same way about Ketch that I do a lot of characters.  They become more interesting when they're attached to Dean.  I can see the two of them becoming frenimies.  I'd like to see that play out more

Ohhh no. I don't want Dean and Ketch to be frienemies at all. I can't stand Ketch now. He's smarmy and gross. I want Dean to beat his ass LOL.

[ILoveReading]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Ohhh no. I don't want Dean and Ketch to be frienemies at all. I can't stand Ketch now. He's smarmy and gross. I want Dean to beat his ass LOL.

I was thinking more along the lines of Dean/Crowley.  Compeletely one sided with Ketch constantly trying to impress Dean, and Dean not really giving him the time of day. Or to have Dean convert him to the grey

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I was thinking more along the lines of Dean/Crowley.  Compeletely one sided with Ketch constantly trying to impress Dean, and Dean not really giving him the time of day. Or to have Dean convert him to the grey

Nah. I don't want that either. I don't like Ketch's fondness for Mary.  I don't want Dean to convert him. I just want Dean to have a full on enemy. He hasn't had one in a long time.

[MysteryGuest]

I don't want Dean befriending any of the BMOL, especially Ketch.  I've decided that I'm just going to assume that Sam agreed to join them so he could infiltrate their little club and find out more about the elders they keep talking about.  Dean will get on board with that, and they can take them down from the inside out.

[catrox14]

12 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I don't want Dean befriending any of the BMOL, especially Ketch.  I've decided that I'm just going to assume that Sam agreed to join them so he could infiltrate their little club and find out more about the elders they keep talking about.  Dean will get on board with that, and they can take them down from the inside out.

I hope that is what happens. I hope maybe there is a cut scene where Dean and Sam have made a plan and didn't tell Mary so she has plausible denibility if Ketch and Co. think shes in on it

[rue721]

10 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I've also thought that it would've been awesome for Dean to have to face Dick Roman multiple times in purgatory - winning, losing, whatever - but again feeding into that loop of black and white, no messy decisions, just easy answers and the intense but fleeting payoff of revenge thing.

That would have been so fantastic! I picture it like Dean needs to keep mowing down Dick just to get anything done. Need to stretch your legs after waking up? Gotta stab Dick Roman to death a couple times. Want to go take a leak? Better behead Dick Roman again on the way. LOL.

IMO Purgatory was really mishandled. Dean could have run into so many interesting monsters he already knew in there. And it would have been interesting to know more about how the place worked, like about what happens to things/people who die there.

10 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

would he even crave the mellowing effect of alcohol anymore or would he want to recreate the "rush" and simplicity of a nice, black and white, no question about it monster kill?

I think he just needed to take the edge off. Being in a blind rage during some monster killing or being blind drunk -- whichever. Either is maybe as good as the other in that sense ;)

11 hours ago, catrox14 said:

When he tries to do something like be angry with Mary it's basically meaningless because he ends up kind of apologizing for his own valid issues. I feel like Dean is drifting from scene to scene.

I see that differently. IMO Dean had a pretty strong character arc over the course of The Raid. IMO that arc was also a set up for continuation of his character arc over the course of the season. To me, it doesn't come off as aimless at all. In fact, I think they're paying more attention to character development and character growth than they have for years. I feel like we're actually learning more about who Dean is as a character, and 12 years in, that's pretty cool. So IMO it does feel like there's a strong direction to the story (and each character's story) and the writers know where they're going. YMMV though. I also am someone who is not missing the lack of a mytharc, even to the point of resenting the tiny one that they've got going with this Lucifer BS. So, to each her own. :)

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I see that differently. IMO Dean had a pretty strong character arc over the course of The Raid. IMO that arc was also a set up for continuation of his character arc over the course of the season. To me, it doesn't come off as aimless at all. In fact, I think they're paying more attention to character development and character growth than they have for years. I feel like we're actually learning more about who Dean is as a character, and 12 years in, that's pretty cool. So IMO it does feel like there's a strong direction to the story (and each character's story) and the writers know where they're going. YMMV though. I also am someone who is not missing the lack of a mytharc, even to the point of resenting the tiny one that they've got going with this Lucifer BS. So, to each her own. :)

I guess to me we aren't really learning anything new about Dean. We're hitting the beats we already know.

--Dean drinks too much when he's angry and hurt
--Dean is lied to and betrayed by someone he loves.
--Dean gets compared with a killer for the 10th time.
 

The only thing new with Dean is that he's standing by what he's angry about and yet...the end of The Raid once more has Dean essentially taking the blame for another person's misunderstanding (Mary and JUST A MOM..  He's not as mopey as he has been for the past 3 seasons but that's not character growth. That's being free of the effects of the Mark of Cain. 

So I guess I don't really see much character growth after all for Dean. 

[rue721]

9 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I guess to me we aren't really learning anything new about Dean. We're hitting the beats we already know.

--Dean drinks too much when he's angry and hurt
--Dean is lied to and betrayed by someone he loves.
--Dean gets compared with a killer for the 10th time.

YMMV but these aren't the beats that I thought that the show was hitting. I thought it was more like:

-- Dean knows his limits and sticks them. He's in control -- and that's proof he's in a pretty good place.

-- Dean disagrees with his loved ones' choices, but he's not going to stand on principle. No ultimatums or anything. Disagreeing doesn't necessitate creating a rift. (That's a very big change IMO)

-- There's a fundamental difference between Dean and a psychopath/sadist like Ketch -- and Dean knows it, and is likely to use Ketch's blindness to it against him.

[Aeryn13]

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Dean disagrees with his loved ones' choices, but he's not going to stand on principle. No ultimatums or anything. Disagreeing doesn't necessitate creating a rift. (That's a very big change IMO)

He is always fallen over like a doormat and apologized in the past so this isn`t new to me. I would like for him to be allowed to stand on some principles, other people shouldn`t have carte blanche to do whatever they want to him and he folds because he doesn`t want to create a rift. That sounds like a terrible one-way-street relationship scenario. Maybe that`s just me but there isn`t a single person in my life that I would allow to always do whatever the hell they want to me with no consequences.

Mary got away with it this time so that will probably encourage her to be increasingly shitty to her sons in the future. And they can never say enough?    

[ILoveReading]

35 minutes ago, rue721 said:

 

-- Dean disagrees with his loved ones' choices, but he's not going to stand on principle. No ultimatums or anything. Disagreeing doesn't necessitate creating a rift. (That's a very big change IMO)

 

The problem here is that its usually Dean being the one told that he needs to adjust his behavior to accommodate the behavior and POV of the other persons.  Dean apologizes to Mary for thinking she should cook and clean and says he will accept her decisions.  Mary stands there saying nothing and acts like its her due, that all the tension between them is coming from Dean's actions and Dean not acting her decisions to lie and work behind their backs.

Is Mary sorry for what she did or sorry they found out what she did.  IMO, there is a difference.  Because even after everything Dean said to her, her first reaction is to try and introduce Sam to the Brits and get him to see for himself what its all about.

Dean goes along to keep the peace is something we've seen him do time and time again.   This isn't character growth for Dean.  It's the exact same thing we saw in the Ruby situation. 

This is one time I'd actually like to see Dean stand on principal and issue an ultimatum.  "I'm not working with these douchebags.  If you and Mom want to, go ahead, its your decision but i want nothing to do with it.

No rift should come because Dean's not saying they can't, he's saying he won't.  If Sam/Mary want Dean to respect their decision then they should respect Dean's as well.

At this point in the series, IMO, character growth for Dean would be risking a rift forming (not that one has to if they respect each other's decision).    It reminds me of what Dean said to Timmy in bad boys.  "Sometimes you have to do what's right for you even if you hurt someone else"   I want to see him take this advice

Edited March 8, 2017 by ILoveReading

[rue721]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

At this point in the series, IMO, character growth for Dean would be risking a rift forming (not that one has to if they respect each other's decision).

When Dean kicked Mary out of the house at the beginning of "The Raid," IMO he was risking a rift.

Dean has taken a "my way or the highway" stance with Sam, too. The S4 ultimatum (which led to a fistfight and a rift IIRC), for example. The Gadreel dramz, too, in a way.

I think that Dean learned from dealing with Sam over the years that it's more destructive than helpful to go the ultimatum route, so he has decided to take a different tact with Mary now (and I think he made that decision to take a different tact over the course of "The Raid," which is why he told Mary at the end of the episode that he wasn't going to risk her safety/their relationship by standing on principle after all).

Judging by the rift between Sam and John, it seems like John was a big one for ultimatums -- and that obviously caused a lot of damage in John's relationships, so, if anything, I'm actually surprised that Dean hasn't already been more adverse to ultimatums up to now than he has been.

Edited March 8, 2017 by rue721

[Aeryn13]

Quote

When Dean kicked Mary out of the house at the beginning of "The Raid," IMO he was risking a rift.

Dean has taken a "my way or the highway" stance with Sam, too. The S4 ultimatum (which led to a fistfight and a rift IIRC), for example. The Gadreel dramz, too, in a way.

But that mostly only lasts one episode before he meekly apologizes. The only way to be even more accomodating would be for him to never show he is angry or hurt or even to never BE angry or hurt by the actions of other people. 

Mary took a lot of actions that risked a rift forming and continues to do so and so far she has gotten away with it very easily. I get Dean being the bigger man but if that`s all someone does, it ultimately makes them a chump. 

What is he gonna do if Mary demands he joins the BMOL or they won`t have a relationship anymore? Just roll over to keep her in his life?  

Edited March 8, 2017 by Aeryn13

[PAForrest]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

The problem here is that its usually Dean being the one told that he needs to adjust his behavior to accommodate the behavior and POV of the other persons.  Dean apologizes to Mary for thinking she should cook and clean and says he will accept her decisions.  Mary stands there saying nothing and acts like its her due, that all the tension between them is coming from Dean's actions and Dean not acting her decisions to lie and work behind their backs.

Is Mary sorry for what she did or sorry they found out what she did.  IMO, there is a difference.  Because even after everything Dean said to her, her first reaction is to try and introduce Sam to the Brits and get him to see for himself what its all about.

Dean goes along to keep the peace is something we've seen him do time and time again.   This isn't character growth for Dean. 

No, it isn't character growth when it's the same old, same old routine almost every single time to have Dean back down, even if not especially in those times when he's right, and go well beyond half-way to keep the peace. It's just SOP, that's all it is. And that's what makes it annoying.

It doesn't help to have Mary (in this situation, but could be anyone) just stand there and practically gloat to watch Dean back down, and not own her part of the problem. It certainly makes it look like Miss Mary doesn't think she's ever at fault - and that's a huge character flaw in and of itself. This is absolutely not the way to make me a fan.

Edited March 8, 2017 by PAForrest

[AwesomO4000]

4 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

But that mostly only lasts one episode before he meekly apologizes.

I think that's not really the case more recently. I agree with @rue721. And there are several examples:

• Dean didn't "meekly apologize" for Gadreel. He actually never apologized and instead insisted he was right. Sam was the one who had to roll over to Dean's way of thinking. (Which Sam did - but he got narratively smacked down for it.)
• Dean didn't apologize for unilaterally deciding to take on the mark of Cain without knowing the consequences either, and once again it was Sam who had to roll over and admit that Dean was right. Which Sam did in "Mother's Little Helper."
• I don't think Dean backed down from being hurt by Sam not looking for him in purgatory and Sam ended up apologizing for that as well. (I admit I could be wrong about this one. I have no intention of revisiting season 8  to check though, so...)
• Dean didn't apologize for lying to Sam during the Abbadon situation. In fact he took it another step further and declared that he should be in charge and was calling all of the shots so Sam better get used to it and fall in line. Sam did. Dean then lied again about it later on after he went off the rails. Dean said that he and Sam would work together, but actually he knocked Sam unconscious and went in alone... getting himself killed - in a manner that if Dean had waited for few a more minutes or had a few more moments of distraction, he might not have gotten killed. As far as I remember, he never apologized for any of that either.*
• I don't think Dean apologized for anything he did or said to Sam as a demon or when he had the mark of Cain, but that seems to be Carver's way since Sam didn't apologize about what he said in "The Purge" either. Compare that to the Gamble era, where Sam apologized for what he'd done to Dean while soulless, even though Sam hadn't even chosen to be that way.

There's likely more that I'm missing, but I think that's already a bunch of examples where Dean didn't meekly apologize the next episode.

* Contrast that with Sam's misstep in season 4 where Sam spent most of season 5 apologizing and/or making it up to Dean, and Dean spent most of season 5 being angry with, having no faith in, or feeling hurt by Sam. Or more than one of those. Sam spent most of season 10 trying to find a way to remove the mark of Cain from Dean, supporting Dean in trying to fight it, or both. No harping on Dean's "bad choices" or having no faith in his decisions - though some of them were arguably pretty bad. Now season 9 was a different story - ugh - but it still ended up with Sam going over to Dean's way of thinking not vica versa.

Edited March 8, 2017 by AwesomO4000
Duh I AM in the Dean thread.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

12 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Taken to the Dean thread.

I know I've had a head cold for the past couple days, but I thought this was the Dean thread?  Did I pass it on to you?  If so, I'm sorry!  :)

[AwesomO4000]

I'm in the process of fixing it - ; ). For some reason, I thought it was the episode thread.

I've become very careful about which threads I post in lately, so as to try not to get off topic.

[SueB]

28 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I think that's not really the case more recently. I agree with @rue721. And there are several examples:

1) Dean didn't "meekly apologize" for Gadreel. He actually never apologized and instead insisted he was right. Sam was the one who had to roll over to Dean's way of thinking. (Which Sam did - but he got narratively smacked down for it.)

2) Dean didn't apologize for unilaterally deciding to take on the mark of Cain without knowing the consequences either, and once again it was Sam who had to roll over and admit that Dean was right. Which Sam did in "Mother's Little Helper."

3) I don't think Dean backed down from being hurt by Sam not looking for him in purgatory and Sam ended up apologizing for that as well.

4) Dean didn't apologize for lying to Sam during the Abbadon situation. In fact he took it another step further and declared that he should be in charge and was calling all of the shots so Sam better get used to it and fall in line. Sam did. Dean then lied again about it later on after he went off the rails. Dean said that he and Sam would work together, but actually he knocked Sam unconscious and went in alone... getting himself killed - in a manner that if Dean had waited for a more minutes or had a few more moments of distraction, he might not have gotten killed. As far as I remember, he never apologized for any of that either.

5) I don't think Dean apologized for anything he did or said to Sam as a demon or when he had the mark of Cain, but that seems to be Carver's way since Sam didn't apologize about what he said in "The Purge" either. Compare that to the Gamble era, where Sam apologized for what he'd done to Dean while soulless, even though Sam hadn't even chosen to be that way.

I understand your examples (although I would quibble* with some of them) but I think the bigger picture is that Dean HAS grown since the start of season 8.  

*note: I'm using the military version of quibble here, where I think there are 'technicalities' in your argument that undermine your position.  Doesn't mean I don't understand your position, just that it's not exactly as stated.  

First, the quibbling (and in 'as aired' order):

3) Dean still hurt over Purgatory - I think he's truly past that as of this point (S12). He still said "and Sam hit a dog" in S10 but that's partly because in Dean's mind Sam never really explained WHY he didn't try.  He said he thought Dean was dead.  And for normal people, that's good enough. But for the Resurrection Boys, presuming dead when he went missing is insufficient.  SOME effort - speak with a psychic, try to summon Cas, SOMETHING.  But Sam ran.  He said it to Amelia and her Dad, so we know (although it was poorly done by Carver).  But Dean never really got a 'why'. Now maybe he should know his brother better than that. But he was definitely butt hurt over it for all of S8.  However, when Sam indicated he'd rather die than disappoint Dean, Dean freaked out.  He NEVER wanted that.  So... they had an epic fail in terms of full and open communication, but IMO, Dean made it clear that the hurt he felt did not change the fact that there is nothing more important to Dean than Sam.  After S11, however, I think Dean would be less likely to say "and Sam hit a dog" and say "something happened with Sam that made him get out of the life".  Because I think Dean knows how much Sam loves him even if he doesn't understand that incident.

1) You are right. Dean not only didn't apologize for Gadreel -- even though he admitted it messed Sam up -- and went further to say he'd do it again.  BUT, that was before S11.  In S11, they jointly agreed to  change their ways and I think they demonstrated they did (see below).

2) Dean admitted taking on the Mark was wrong in multiple episodes. He took responsibility for killing Randy and the Rapists in EP 10.11 - he said he was out of control and to put him into the sun if they had to.  In EP 10.15 "...Cain resisted the Mark for a long time, then I came kicking up trouble about the blade. I sent him down this path. This is one me."  So Dean took responsibility for what Cain did with the Mark.  In EP10.18, he said "This is my cross to bear, Sam. Mine" and that his were the "wrong hands" to hold the book.  So, he's refusing to do more harm to make up for taking the Mark.  In EP10.19 He acknowledged to himself (via the Benny hallucination) that he couldn't ask Sam or Cas to 'take care of him'.  Which is why he went to Death in EP 10.23 to kill him. And when that failed, to put him some place where he couldn't hurt anyone.  Again these are all indications that Dean understands that Mark was a mistake.  When in EP11.1, Sam tried to take ownership for releasing the Darkness, Dean made it clear it was on both of them. "Lock and Key".  Finally, in  EP 11.1 "..just like I can't go back in a time machine and tell Cain to shove that Mark up his ass." It's not the words "I'm sorry" but in my opinion Dean showed regret for getting taking on the Mark.  He no longer was saying the ends (killing Abbadon) justified the means (taking on the Mark).  He acknowledged he screwed up.  

4) Dean WAS an absolute ass to Sam and never apologized directly for declaring a dictatorship or going it alone against Metatron.

5) OTOH, while Dean didn't apologize for turning into a demon, he tried to say "thank you" to Sam for saving him. Sam cut off the 'thank you' and said it wasn't necessary.  Now this was AFTER he said that he was embarrassed about what he did as a demon. And after he acknowledged that he gets what Sam did with Lester and other 'bad guys'.  (And YES, he was an ass to push Sam into admitting he went too far with Lester).  But, as "Winchester apologies" go, that butt-awkward conversation in Paper Moon was the best rapprochement Dean could muster at the time for what happened when he became a demon.  Further, he backed that up by asking permission from Sam to hunt.  Not just in Paper Moon but in 10.5-10.8. And then Sam had to get him back hunting rather than hiding in his room in 10.12.  My point being, Dean was clearly afraid of turning into a demon again.  

Bottom line of the specific examples: I think at least with the Mark of Cain, Dean expressed direct remorse for making the bad decision in the first place.  I think he also took responsibility for the consequences after.  

BUT the most important part of the character growth really took place in Season 11.  It was S11 that Sam insisted they work the second half of the bumper sticker. Dean took a little longer to come around, but they eventually BOTH started working to save lives even if it mean the other person might die.  So Dean accepted Sam's decision to stay behind in 11.1.  And grudgingly, Dean accepted Sam's decision to pursue his visions and speak with Lucifer. Sam accepted Dean's decision to go to the Nazi sub.  And Dean accepted Sam's decision to take on the Mark in the pentultimate battle with Amara.  And Sam accepted Dean becoming the bom.

Compared to where they were in S8, when Dean wouldn't let Sam die for the greater goo and in S10 when Sam wouldn't let Dean be cast into some alone place, the boys have matured.  They are prepared to let the other die for the greater good.  That's HUGE growth.  

So, will they ever be great at communication?  Well, I think they are much much better than they were prior to the Demon Dean turn.  I think Dean leaning on Sam so much in S10 helped to change his point of view. And in S11 they had success being more honest with each other and prioritizing the second half of the bumper sticker.  So... by S12, the boys are in synch.  They are not lying to each other.  Dean didn't lie to Sam -- he did go out for a drink.  Sam didn't lie to Dean, he did go out for a bit.  They work hard to protect their relationship.  I don't see the immature barbs (I'm not talking about teasing) that reveals they are holding onto grudges.

So... Dean, IMO, has shown a TON of growth since the examples cited above.   

[ILoveReading]

6 hours ago, rue721 said:

When Dean kicked Mary out of the house at the beginning of "The Raid," IMO he was risking a rift.

Dean has taken a "my way or the highway" stance with Sam, too. The S4 ultimatum (which led to a fistfight and a rift IIRC), for example. The Gadreel dramz, too, in a way.

I think that Dean learned from dealing with Sam over the years that it's more destructive than helpful to go the ultimatum route, so he has decided to take a different tact with Mary now (and I think he made that decision to take a different tact over the course of "The Raid," which is why he told Mary at the end of the episode that he wasn't going to risk her safety/their relationship by standing on principle after all).

Judging by the rift between Sam and John, it seems like John was a big one for ultimatums -- and that obviously caused a lot of damage in John's relationships, so, if anything, I'm actually surprised that Dean hasn't already been more adverse to ultimatums up to now than he has been.

Maybe ultimatum is the wrong word.  I'm not sure of the best one the best one to use, but Dean doesn't agree with anything the Men of Letters are doing.  He should be able to opt out without it being an issue.  He shouldn't be the only one forced to compromise his beliefs for everyone else.  Maybe it wouldn't feel like Dean being the doormat if Mary acknowledged wrong doing on her part, or corrected Dean that she knew it really wasn't about Tomato Rice Soup and Hey Jude.  

There is a way to do it without it being "my way or the highway."  Something along the line of:

Dean- Sam, if you want to work with these suckbags go ahead.  But I want nothing to with them. "

That way Dean's standing firm and Sam can't cry that Dean's trying to be bossy.  He tried to get along with Ruby.  It still didn't change anything.  Sam does what Sam wants regardless.  Dean didn't think it was a good idea for Sam to say yes, but then everyone kept telling him to get out of Sam's way, let Sam grow up.  Dean suddenly agrees. 

Saving Sam has been Dean's prime directive since he's been 4.  I'm not sure him not backing down on doing anything saving Sam is character growth.

As for the other examples-

Purgatory- Dean did back down.  After Southern Comfort, he was lectured by Garth about it.  After the events of 9.9 when Dean tried to walk away, Cas went and got Sam and said they needed him.   Dean's usually not allowed to walk away when he's angry or upset.

Sam taking the mark- was a conversation that Sam had with God behind Dean's back and Amara was on the verge of attacking.  He was never given a chance to really voice his objections. 

Going to the cage- IMO, Dean never agreed with this. He pointed out multiple times why he didn't think it was God telling Sam to go into the cage. Sam didn't listen ad  Dean knew that Sam was going to go anyway regardless of what he said or did so he went to make sure Sam was safe.  IMO, this qualifies as Dean backing down mostly because no one listened to his very valid reasons why it was very bad idea. 

As for Dean being the bomb, and accepting, Dean has always been willing to sacrifice himself (despite what Sam thinks) so its not really character growth since Dean's default is usually, "I don't matter anyway."

One thing I notice its always, Dean "grudingly accepts."  Now, I know that Dean would never let Sam go into a dangerous situation, like with the cage, but what I'd like to see more of is people actually taking Dean's advice. He's got good instincts and has been proven right more often than not.  So, it would be good to see a change in the narrative where people take his advice, rather than they insist they're doing it anyway, and Dean has to compromise and then clean up the mess when things go sideways.  

 

Dean refusing to take part in any Brits missions, for me is character growth.  It would be nice if Dean isn't the one who always has to agree.

[rue721]

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

He should be able to opt out without it being an issue.  He shouldn't be the only one forced to compromise his beliefs for everyone else.

He can opt out -- initially, he did. Nobody is forcing him to do anything. He kicked Mary out (and Sam backed him up), so she left. Then he told Sam he needed to go out and have a drink, so he did. He could do whatever he wanted.

But based on what he said at the end of the The Raid, he apparently thinks that being right is going to be cold comfort if it costs him what actually matters (eg, his mom), so he's not going to stand on principle this time.

I don't think it even really matters that much if he's making the "right" decision because IMO his point was that his priority isn't being right or being proven right. It's making sure that people are OK. (Taking the "saving people" part of the motto seriously, maybe).

[Myrelle]

44 minutes ago, rue721 said:

He shouldn't be the only one forced to compromise his beliefs for everyone else.

Apparently, this is Dean's main role on the show. He has to be the one to actually put family first. Everyone else can just mouth the words.

[AwesomO4000]

3 hours ago, SueB said:

I understand your examples (although I would quibble* with some of them) but I think the bigger picture is that Dean HAS grown since the start of season 8.

No problem... and actually I agree with you that Dean has changed since season 8. That was kinda my point - I think I must have made it confusingly, however. (And I love that you numbered my examples and reordered your responses into chronological order - that is so SueB : ) Don't ever change.) Okay down to business...

So here's the explanation of my above post... Above @rue721 was talking about how Dean's conciliatory talk with Mary was a good thing, that he was being more proactive in trying not to give ultimatums, because Dean's learned over the years that ultimatums generally don't necessarily get him very positive results. The counter argument (to what Rue said) which I was addressing with my post is that Dean almost always is conciliatory and he is the one to make concessions while no one else around him backs down or makes compromises.... therefore the recent conciliation with Mary isn't growth, because it's the same thing that Dean has always done. (That was the counter argument.)

So the point of my making the above list was to show times when I thought that Dean absolutely did not "meekly apologize" and accommodate everyone else while ignoring his own stance. Therefore Dean being accommodating with Mary isn't just the same old, same old thing that Dean has always done but is actually character growth... but apparently I didn't quite close on the point I was trying to make. That's what I get for trying to be more concise and less wordy. Heh. So basically we are agreeing and arguing for the same thing, but doing it completely differently. Hee. You pointing out how Dean has changed = character growth. Me pointing out times in the past when Dean didn't do what he's doing now = character growth now.

4 hours ago, SueB said:

Dean admitted taking on the Mark was wrong in multiple episodes. He took responsibility for killing Randy and the Rapists in EP 10.11 - he said he was out of control and to put him into the sun if they had to.  In EP 10.15 "...Cain resisted the Mark for a long time, then I came kicking up trouble about the blade. I sent him down this path. This is one me."  So Dean took responsibility for what Cain did with the Mark.

I agree. I should've put that as an addendum to my point. The main point of my example there was that Dean spent all of the second half of season 9 not apologizing for it (rather than apologizing an episode later as was the stance of the point I was refuting) and instead insisted that it was a good thing. He even stuck to his guns so much that Sam backed down and compromised in "Mother's Little Helper" when he admitted to Dean that Dean was right that Abbadon had to be stopped. My point there was that Sam conceded and compromised with Dean, not vica versa. I should've mentioned that in season 10, it was different and Dean did have second thoughts about the mark - sorry about that. (I was trying to not go off on tangents not relative to my point.)

4 hours ago, SueB said:

BUT the most important part of the character growth really took place in Season 11.

I entirely agree. Dean has had a lot of character growth recently. Which I was attempting to show - haphazardly - by showing times in the past when Dean stubbornly stuck to his guns and didn't compromise, showing that his compromises now are something different and not just same old Dean always backing down.

4 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Going to the cage- IMO, Dean never agreed with this. He pointed out multiple times why he didn't think it was God telling Sam to go into the cage. Sam didn't listen ad  Dean knew that Sam was going to go anyway regardless of what he said or did so he went to make sure Sam was safe.  IMO, this qualifies as Dean backing down mostly because no one listened to his very valid reasons why it was very bad idea. 

That's not quite the way I remember it. I don't remember Dean having multiple valid reasons for Sam not doing it. I also remember Dean agreeing as long as Sam waited for him. Sam didn't wait - though he did call (Dean just didn't answer). And not only did Dean agree to look into it, he had a chance for the whole issue to go away - Crowley was going to leave saying he wouldn't do it. Dean was the one who got Crowley to stay and think of a way to get it done.

4 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Sam taking the mark- was a conversation that Sam had with God behind Dean's back and Amara was on the verge of attacking.  He was never given a chance to really voice his objections. 

First we have no idea who started the God/Sam conversation. It likely was God, and when God asks you to do something, I'm pretty sure Sam is going to do it. Second, according to Sam when Dean said "You could've talked tot." Sam answered "We did talk." And then they had a whole conversation about it, with Dean fully able to voice his objections - which he did - but after talking, Dean agreed that it was "God's plan" and so they would do it.

[catrox14]

But this isn't really about Dean standing on principle. This is about Mary betraying and abandoning the boys again. This is about the harm she did to Dean (and Sam)  by making the choice to stay away from the boys because she can't handle being their mom on any real level or even trying to get to know them for the men they are now.  Then she compounds the pain she is causing Dean by signing up with the assclowns who tormented Sam and almost got Cas killed.  Dean doesn't take that shit lightly. 

Just like Mary didn't ask to come back, Dean did not ask for her to be brought back. Yet he was willing to try and help her and make her part of the family and she walked away from that.

Dean did nothing wrong by being angry with Mary and telling her to leave HIS home. Mary wasn't living in the bunker again and it's not like Mary had nowhere to go. She'd been doing just fine on the road and living in the BMOL lair. Likewise, he did nothing wrong by going to help her.

I wouldn't be bothered if not for Berens having Dean be the only person to say anything truly conciliatory and it's explained as 'Well that's what Dean always does" "He loves everyone SO MUCH, that no matter what stupid thing they've done or how much it hurt him. YET when Dean goes to the extremes to save someone he loves, then he's going too far and he's co-dependent.

[AwesomO4000]

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I wouldn't be bothered if not for Berens having Dean be the only person to say anything truly conciliatory

I thought Sam's "I'm in" and his even being willing to go along on Mary's little field trip after finding out that Mary lied to get him there was pretty conciliatory. I'd likely be more annoyed about Dean's conciliation, but at least he gets to keep his opinion of not going along with the BMoL. Unless things are not what they seem to be (please, please, please), I think that's a lot more than what Sam's getting right now.

[Mick Lady]

On ‎3‎/‎7‎/‎2017 at 0:15 PM, AwesomO4000 said:

** I've also thought that it would've been awesome for Dean to have to face Dick Roman multiple times in purgatory - winning, losing, whatever - but again feeding into that loop of black and white, no messy decisions, just easy answers and the intense but fleeting payoff of revenge thing. Of course if Dean lost sometimes, there would have had to be some excuse of why Dean stayed in purgatory, but I would've handwaved it to see Dean and Dick interact some more.

I was waiting for this! God what fun it would have been!!

[catrox14]

Quote

 

CHUCK: Once she's been weakened, I will take the Mark back from Amara and use it to seal her away. You ready?
SAM: Yeah.
DEAN: Wait, what?
SAM: God and I talked about this. Someone needs to bear the Mark.
DEAN: Well, that should be me. I-I've had it before. I'm damaged goods.
CHUCK: Exactly. You've already been tainted. I can't transfer it to you. Sam volunteered.
(DEAN glances at SAM then yanks on his arm to talk with him some feet away.)
DEAN: First Cas is making kamikaze side plans, and now you? You couldn't have talked to me?
SAM: We did talk.
DEAN: And what happens when the Mark turns you psycho, then what?
SAM: You lock me up where I can't hurt anyone and you throw away the key.
DEAN: Sam, no.
SAM: Dean, you told me you couldn't beat Amara, that it would have to be me. Well, this is it – me.
LUCIFER (to CROWLEY): I'm just saying, angels can hurt her. It's worked before.
CROWLEY: If you call giving Amara a mild case of the pukes working.
ROWENA: We're trying to disorientate her as much as hurt her. You underestimate witchcraft, Fergus, always have.
CROWLEY: If anything, she's inoculated. Full-scale demon attack. That's our X-factor.
(LUCIFER laughs.)

AM (to DEAN, quietly): We talked about this. It's time to do the smart thing.
DEAN: So, what am I supposed to do, just sit by and watch?
SAM: No. We're both in this fight. You're leading this army.
DEAN: Oh, you mean babysitting the bad guys?
(SAM huffs out a laugh.)
DEAN: Okay, Sam. Okay. God's plan.

 

 

Dean did voice his objections. It really wasn't much of a conversation, though, because Sam said "We did talk about it" referring to Dean's plight with Amara.

  Dean was shaking his head  & giving that side eye thing he does, as he was saying when he's super NOT on board with a plan but feels like he doesn't have much choice or is TRYING to be okay with it. But IMO at no point was Dean actually okay with it.

And I LOVE the lampshading in that line about babysitting the bad guys. That ws great.

[SueB]

7 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I wouldn't be bothered if not for Berens having Dean be the only person to say anything truly conciliatory and it's explained as 'Well that's what Dean always does" "He loves everyone SO MUCH, that no matter what stupid thing they've done or how much it hurt him. YET when Dean goes to the extremes to save someone he loves, then he's going too far and he's co-dependent.

First, I agree with @AwesomO4000 that Sam showed openness. But IMO between 5 text messages to Dean, 6 to Sam, and "Sam, I messed up. I know I messed up." Mary made conciliatory efforts.  Plus she STARTED to apologize to Dean and he cut her off and talked about her not needing to make him sandwiches (or equivalent).

So, Dean wasn't the only one trying to repair the relationship at the end.

But, IMO, the relationship is far from "okay".  They've agreed they want to be Mother and Sons (vice Mary, Sam, & Dean).  But not much more.  

You know, it's funny, I never really expected them to have Mary come back and cause as many emotional issues as John.  But she's really working it, isn't she.  

Supernatural: this is why we can never have nice things.  

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

But, IMO, the relationship is far from "okay".  They've agreed they want to be Mother and Sons (vice Mary, Sam, & Dean).  But not much more.  

Exactly.

Personally, I think Dean just realized he still wanted a relationship with Mary and shutting her out wasn't going to get him to his goal. I got the impression Dean was just saying let's agree to disagree for now and see where it takes us. 

[ILoveReading]

43 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Exactly.

Personally, I think Dean just realized he still wanted a relationship with Mary and shutting her out wasn't going to get him to his goal. I got the impression Dean was just saying let's agree to disagree for now and see where it takes us. 

I can understand Dean wanting a relationship with this mom, but what missing is that I'm not sure Mary wants one with him.  Because he was spot on when he Dean said it was them Mary wanted space from.   I'm not even sure Mary sees them as her sons yet, in anything other than name.   Even when she lured Sam to the sight, it wasn't to make a personal connection it was to further defend her position with them. 

Words don't mean much if you don't back them up.  Its why it never bothered me that Dean didn't apologize for the whole Gadreel thing.  Why say sorry if your not.  He will always do what he can to try and save Sam. So if Dean says, sorry Sam, I'll never do that again.  Would anyone really believe it?

It reminds me  of the Ruby situation.  Sam kept saying it was for Dean, that he wanted to get revenge for his brother.  It may have started out that way, but Sam left his brother on his first night back from hell.  He prioritized Ruby long before When the Levee Breaks.  If it was truly about Dean, then why would he need her when Dean was back?   His words don't match his actions.   

  She keep saying she's doing it for Sam and Dean.  But so far we've seen her prioritizing the BMOLs needs ahead of those of her sons.  She refused to jeopardize the mission even if he meant Cas's life.   What does she think losing Cas would do to them?   She continues to justify her actions as 'the greater good',  On the surface its a good things but is it really?.  But she never asked her sons why they would be so opposed.

They could probably give her an earful about how many times they thought they were doing something for the greater good only to have it backfire and make things worse.  

Is she really doing this for her sons or is she using her sons as excuse for what she's doing? 

I know Dean will always prioritize family, but this is why for me its coming across as Dean is 'knucking under'  He's the one doing all the compromising and adjusting his behavior.  Mary wants him to hear her out but she's refusing Dean the same courtesy.  If she disagrees, find but at least ask him and really listen to what he has to say.

I'll just agree to disagree

Edited March 9, 2017 by ILoveReading

[DittyDotDot]

29 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Is she really doing this for her sons or is she using her sons as excuse for what she's doing? 

Of course she's using it as an excuse for what she's doing, but that doesn't mean she doesn't also want a relationship with them. In her mind, this is what a mother does: protects. She just doesn't know how to have a relationship with them, so she's trying to be mom the only other way she knows how. I think she's confused and doing all the wrong things, doesn't mean she doesn't want the right things though.

29 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I know Dean will always prioritize family, but this is why for me its coming across as Dean is 'knucking under'  He's the one doing all the compromising and adjusting his behavior.  Mary wants him to hear her out but she's refusing Dean the same courtesy.

Sometimes you have to adjust your behavior to get something you want. I guess I just look at it as, Dean is a smart guy who realized what he wanted and chose a course of action to get him there rather than continuing to engage in behavior that wasn't getting him anywhere. It's one of the many reasons I think Dean is a genius.

Edited March 9, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[PAForrest]

30 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Is she really doing this for her sons or is she using her sons as excuse for what she's doing? 

I know Dean will always prioritize family, but this is why for me its coming across as Dean is 'knucking under'  He's the one doing all the compromising and adjusting his behavior.  Mary wants him to hear her out but she's refusing Dean the same courtesy.  If she disagrees, find but at least ask him and really listen to what he has to say.

I love what Dean said to Crowley about Rowena in season 10, reiterating what Bobby told them about family not ending with blood, but that it doesn't necessarily begin there either.

It's time Dean took a little of his own advice.

[ILoveReading]

11 minutes ago, PAForrest said:

I love what Dean said to Crowley about Rowena in season 10, reiterating what Bobby told them about family not ending with blood, but that it doesn't necessarily begin there either.

It's time Dean took a little of his own advice.

Agree. It wont happen but Id love to see Dean actually say this to Mary.

The problem is that the relationship is so one sides.  Dean's the one putting in all the effort to make it work.  He's the one who helped Mary adjust, he gave her space when she asked, he tried to keep in touch and include her and came when she asked.  (A favor she did not return. ) 

Mary shows up with beer.

I don't expect Dean to freeze Mary out, but what I would like to see is Dean stop making effort.  Be the one to answer if she calls but let her call first, let her send the game request.  Be the guy who just shows up with the beer, for a change.

26 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Sometimes you have to adjust your behavior to get something you want. I guess I just look at it as, Dean is a smart guy who realized what he wanted and chose a course of action to get him there rather than continuing to engage in behavior that wasn't getting him anywhere. It's one of the many reasons I think Dean is a genius.

This make me incredibly sad for Dean that the only way he can have a relationship with his family is to become what they think he should be rather than them accepting him for who he is.

I know it won't happen, but its why I would really like to see Dean be the one to walk away (not permanently) just so he can get some time and space and figure out who he is when he's not fulfilling a role to keep others happy. 

[ILoveReading]

11 minutes ago, PAForrest said:

I love what Dean said to Crowley about Rowena in season 10, reiterating what Bobby told them about family not ending with blood, but that it doesn't necessarily begin there either.

It's time Dean took a little of his own advice.

Agree. It wont happen but Id love to see Dean actually say this to Mary.

The problem is that the relationship is so one sides.  Dean's the one putting in all the effort to make it work.  He's the one who helped Mary adjust, he gave her space when she asked, he tried to keep in touch and include her and came when she asked.  (A favor she did not return. ) 

Mary shows up with beer.

I don't expect Dean to freeze Mary out, but what I would like to see is Dean stop making effort.  Be the one to answer if she calls but let her call first, let her send the game request.  Be the guy who just shows up with the beer, for a change.

26 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Sometimes you have to adjust your behavior to get something you want. I guess I just look at it as, Dean is a smart guy who realized what he wanted and chose a course of action to get him there rather than continuing to engage in behavior that wasn't getting him anywhere. It's one of the many reasons I think Dean is a genius.

This make me incredibly sad for Dean that the only way he can have a relationship with his family is to become what they think he should be rather than them accepting him for who he is.

I know it won't happen, but its why I would really like to see Dean be the one to walk away (not permanently) just so he can get some time and space and figure out who he is when he's not fulfilling a role to keep others happy. 

[DittyDotDot]

4 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I know it won't happen, but its why I would really like to see Dean be the one to walk away (not permanently) just so he can get some time and space and figure out who he is when he's not fulfilling a role to keep others happy. 

But, would that make Dean happy?

3 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

This make me incredibly sad for Dean that the only way he can have a relationship with his family is to become what they think he should be rather than them accepting him for who he is.

I never said, suggested or was implying Dean had to become anyone else than Dean. He's not changing who he is by deciding not to keep freezing Mary out. Personally, I think Sam and Mary accept Dean for who he is, what Dean was saying to Mary is that he was going to accept her for who she is too rather than trying to force her to become someone else. 

[catrox14]

4 hours ago, SueB said:

First, I agree with @AwesomO4000 that Sam showed openness. But IMO between 5 text messages to Dean, 6 to Sam, and "Sam, I messed up. I know I messed up." Mary made conciliatory efforts.  Plus she STARTED to apologize to Dean and he cut her off and talked about her not needing to make him sandwiches (or equivalent)

And there is lies the rub. 

The scene had Dean cut off Mary's presumed apology, and then has him offer this totally out of left field quasi apology/conciliatory thing for something HE LITERALLY NEVER SAID OR IMPLIED HE WANTED. Not that I ever saw since Mary came back.

So okay I'm left to ask WHY does that moment exist.  For which character's benefit?

If this was supposed to be some big revelation that  Dean's inner child really did always want that and he's not been able to cope with not having it then it's poor storytelling and certainly emotionally unsatisfying and leaves a big part of Dean's supposed character growth off the screen.

If it was about Mary's perception of what she thinks the boys expected  or even if she's projecting her own fears, why have Dean cut Mary off from a presumed apology and go into his own quasi apology? What is the point of Dean doing that other than a final resolution to Mary being NOT JUST A MOM and it's implying that Dean was wrong and Mary was right to call him out for it.  

If it was about Dean trying to let Mary save face on her possible erroneous perception why not give Dean a line that clarifies that it's not about what he needed or wanted or expected but that he gets that Mary thought that. If that was supposed to come out in the acting, sadly, I don't think it did, given Mary's rather smug smile. And Dean's rather somber face.

It conflated two story points that were never on the table for conflation at ALL until that scene. It took Dean's rightful anger about Mary being in cahoots with the BMOL and changes it to Dean just doesn't get that Mary is going to make her own decisions because she's NOT JUST A MOM.Dean was the only character made to address those poorly and IMO wrongly conflated story points.  

It was like Dean had to learn a lesson that was not on the syllabus he had and the syllabus was for a different class.

Edited March 9, 2017 by catrox14

[SueB]

At the risk of opening a can of worms:  while listening to The Prisoner today, I realized something about Dean and apologies.  First, I'm faking Jensen at his word when he said the Mark made him more and more unfiltered.  So, while he made some statements that were outrageous while under the Mark's influence, it's in the direction of his feelings.  Specifically, when they are burning Charlie's body, Sam starts to apologize and Dean cuts him off.  He said Sam didn't get to apologize because he got Charlie killed.  Which would imply that apologizing is not the right thing to do (sometimes) when you have done something super bad.  I'm guessing because it's 'seeking forgiveness' and in that case, Dean didn't feel Sam should ask for forgiveness.  

IF this is part of Dean's perspective, is this why he never apologized for Gadreel?  Dean felt He (Dean) didn't deserve forgiveness so he shouldn't ask for it.

 

I dont agree with Dean, but it's something to consider.  

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Personally, I think Sam and Mary accept Dean for who he is

I don`t think Mary can accept Dean for who he is because she doesn`t know him. The only thing she seems to have clued in on about her sons, either of them, is the best tactics on how to manipulate them into doing what she wants. And sure, she knows surface stuff about Dean, that he likes fast food, beer, the car and rock music. But who he is as a person? She doesn`t know and she doesn`t seem to care. Honestly, she has been way too busy telling everybody what she wants and how she feels.     

[Myrelle]

2 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

3 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I know it won't happen, but its why I would really like to see Dean be the one to walk away (not permanently) just so he can get some time and space and figure out who he is when he's not fulfilling a role to keep others happy. 

But, would that make Dean happy?

Who knows? It wouldn't necessarily have to make him happy. Or maybe it would. How could we ever know or tell if he's never been allowed to do it w/o it being forced on him by his loved ones leaving him first or by some devastatingly painful and/or world-shattering revelation? It would be interesting to find out-especially at this point in the story; and I think it would be equally as interesting to see his loved ones reactions to his leaving for that reason. And it would be something a little different for the character. Sam has been allowed to do it. Mary, too, even in the short stint that she's been on the show.

[rue721]

3 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Sometimes you have to adjust your behavior to get something you want. I guess I just look at it as, Dean is a smart guy who realized what he wanted and chose a course of action to get him there rather than continuing to engage in behavior that wasn't getting him anywhere.

Yes, and you also may have to adjust your expectations or sacrifice some wants in order to get some needs met, too. You may have to compromise, I guess I'm saying.

I mean, this is not Dean's ideal relationship with his mother, I'm going to assume. Mary has been salty enough that I really doubt that she feels that she's getting what she would want, either (based on her bitter "since when is life about getting what you want?" to Sam, if nothing else). But this is what they've got, so they basically have to make the best of it.

I think that Dean is pretty good at playing the cards he's dealt, in general (and I think that's a GOOD thing, not pathetic or whatever). IMO that's basically what he's doing now -- playing the cards he's dealt, and compromising on things he cares less about in order to get what he REALLY wants/needs.

Mary apparently isn't as great at playing the cards she's dealt, though (to be fair, her cards have been pretty crappy). I think that's what makes her more susceptible to the BMOL's pitch than Dean is, too. She's not as grounded or willing to compromise or adjust her expectations.

Edited March 9, 2017 by rue721

[Myrelle]

41 minutes ago, rue721 said:

 

Mary apparently isn't as great at playing the cards she's dealt, though (to be fair, her cards have been pretty crappy).

She had a big hand in making them crappy, herself, by making an unholy and unnatural deal with a demon to bring back someone she loved and thus ruining his life AND the sons lives whom she now professes to so love and this, as Aeryn stated, when she hardly knows them. She sold her own soul and all of theirs-not just Sam's-for what in the end became only a trip to Memorexland for herself and the husband and babies she always wanted, and now that it's been taken from her, all she can still think of is herself and her own losses and what she can now do to assuage just and simply her own feelings-even while she says that she's doing it all for them. She has not taken the necessary time or spent one bit of energy to get to know her real life children/sons, and this, while she has given beaucoup time and energy to work with those whose members have physically hurt them and betrayed both them and her. How could she not consider these things, if she's the mother that she(and the actress who plays her) claims that she is? Hopefully, we'll get to see her come to these realizations(and hopefully Sam S. was just attempting to paint her character in the best light possible in that awful interview she gave) or I fear she's toast what with most of the fandom reaction that I've seen to the writing of her return so far. And to the actress' portrayal of it also. Lacks warmth seems to be the predominant reaction that I've seen, in both regards.

Edited March 9, 2017 by Myrelle

[Aeryn13]

Quote

You may have to compromise, I guess I'm saying.

To me a compromise implies some give/take. If ultimately Mary says "jump" and Dean is gonna ask "how high?" just have a "relationship" with her or keep the peace, it`s really some bitter irony. He kinda used to do that with John, I don`t want to see him slide right back into it with the other parent. Like, it was fine when the show started and I completely understood why he did it but goodness gracious, I do not want to see a replay with Mary. 

At least back when the show started with John, the message was that Dean grew away from that and that that was a good thing. I don`t understand why the opposite is supposed to be good now. Subsuming yourself for Mary is no different for me than doing it for John. And while John was more outwardly (verbally) shitty than Mary, she is way colder than him overall. There is little to no warmth to the character.

I get the disconnect between Dean`s early childhood memories and the reality of Mary now but all those nice memories and anecdotes that he has, I mean I should see some shades of that person in Mary. There was a throughline with the flashback!adult!Mary and Dean`s memories and young!flashback!Mary. The "real" Mary now? I can`t see her being a loving mother even to a four year old and a baby. 

Heck, we even got her story how she went hunting with a one-year-old at home who was apparently chopped liver or something? No indication or conflict that she had some anxiety of leaving such a young child motherless. She was more gaga over the child she saved. 

[Myrelle]

5 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

To me a compromise implies some give/take. If ultimately Mary says "jump" and Dean is gonna ask "how high?" just have a "relationship" with her or keep the peace, it`s really some bitter irony. He kinda used to do that with John, I don`t want to see him slide right back into it with the other parent. Like, it was fine when the show started and I completely understood why he did it but goodness gracious, I do not want to see a replay with Mary. 

At least back when the show started with John, the message was that Dean grew away from that and that that was a good thing. I don`t understand why the opposite is supposed to be good now. Subsuming yourself for Mary is no different for me than doing it for John. And while John was more outwardly (verbally) shitty than Mary, she is way colder than him overall. There is little to no warmth to the character.

ITA with your entire post, but this part should be put on a billboard for the writers to see every day that they go to work, FCOL and IMO.

Edited March 9, 2017 by Myrelle

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

IF this is part of Dean's perspective, is this why he never apologized for Gadreel?  Dean felt He (Dean) didn't deserve forgiveness so he shouldn't ask for it.

That's an interesting thought, and I would agree that it could have been a possibility except that Dean doubled down and said that he would do it again... and insisted that Sam would also do the same thing in his shoes which leads me to believe that Dean thought it was right or at the least defensible. That Dean was so upset when Sam said he wouldn't do the same leads me to believe that Dean truthfully thought doing what he did was - at the least - justifiable.

Now for me the semi-fail of the narrative was that in terms of Dean, the narrative did somewhat support Dean's position in that, in the end, Sam didn't hold on to his assertion that he wouldn't do the same thing and in "The Prisoner" (I believe) - it was one of the episodes on TNT today - Sam even gave the emotional plea that Dean had always saved him - and how Sam seemed grateful for that - so how could Sam not save Dean now? That kind of swept under the rug exactly what Dean had done* ...especially when Sam was thinking that he was crazy and/or going "bad" again because he didn't know what was happening to him. That was kind of heartbreaking to me, and that the narrative - in my opinion anyway - later seemed to ignore that and had Sam somehow being fine with being treated that way - and as someone in another thread pointed out had Sam declaring Gadreel a "friend" - downplayed what Dean had done and to me somewhat justified it. "See, Sam is cool with it after all. All his bitching wasn't really justified" ***

So because of those two things - Dean doubling down and being upset Sam didn't agree and the narrative somewhat supporting Dean's position - I don't think that the story would be subtle enough to have Dean holding back on an apology because he doesn't believe he deserves to be forgiven. As nice as that idea might be. I think the narrative had Dean not apologizing because 1) Dean was right that Sam would do the same 2) Once Sam figured out Dean was right about that, Sam was eventually "cool with it" and 3) It wasn't that big a deal after all... see Gadreel was mostly misunderstood and confused. He did the right thing in the end. And if that wasn't their message, then they kind of missed the boat with me on that one, because that's mostly what I got out of it. Kevin should've have been an argument against all of that, but Sam calling Gadreel "friend" (not even ally)  pretty much negated that. *That still bugs me... and not in a good way.*

* And to be clear, although I can't say it was ideal, I understood the inviting Gadreel and helping him get in thing. It was not telling Sam about that right away so that Sam could decide for himself if that was what he wanted and then lying for months afterwards that I disagreed with. Especially after Sam seemed to be suffering with what was happening to him.

*** The narrative in season 10 when Sam decided to do the same thing wasn't quite as forgiving of Sam, I thought, but in season 9, I thought it was of Dean's decision.

Edited March 9, 2017 by AwesomO4000

[Wayward Son]

10 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

That's an interesting thought, and I would agree that it could have been a possibility except that Dean doubled down and said that he would do it again... and insisted that Sam would also do the same thing in his shoes which leads me to believe that Dean thought it was right or at the least defensible. That Dean was so upset when Sam said he wouldn't do the same leads me to believe that Dean truthfully thought doing what he did was - at the least - justifiable.

Now for me the semi-fail of the narrative was that in terms of Dean, the narrative did somewhat support Dean's position in that, in the end, Sam didn't hold on to his assertion that he wouldn't do the same thing and in "The Prisoner" (I believe) - it was one of the episodes on TNT today - Sam even gave the emotional plea that Dean had always saved him - and how Sam seemed grateful for that - so how could Sam not save Dean now? That kind of swept under the rug exactly what Dean had done* ...especially when Sam was thinking that he was crazy and/or going "bad" again because he didn't know what was happening to him. That was kind of heartbreaking to me, and that the narrative - in my opinion anyway - later seemed to ignore that and had Sam somehow being fine with being treated that way - and as someone in another thread pointed out had Sam declaring Gadreel a "friend" - downplayed what Dean had done and to me somewhat justified it. "See, Sam is cool with it after all. All his bitching wasn't really justified" ***

So because of those two things - Dean doubling down and being upset Sam didn't agree and the narrative somewhat supporting Dean's position - I don't think that the story would be subtle enough to have Dean holding back on an apology because he doesn't believe he deserves to be forgiven. As nice as that idea might be. I think the narrative had Dean not apologizing because 1) Dean was right that Sam would do the same 2) Once Sam figured out Dean was right about that, Sam was eventually "cool with it" and 3) It wasn't that big a deal after all... see Gadreel was mostly misunderstood and confused. He did the right thing in the end. And if that wasn't their message, then they kind of missed the boat with me on that one, because that's mostly what I got out of it. Kevin should've have been an argument against all of that, but Sam calling Gadreel "friend" (not even ally)  pretty much negated that. *That still bugs me... and not in a good way.*

* And to be clear, although I can't say it was ideal, I understood the inviting Gadreel and helping him get in thing. It was not telling Sam about that right away so that Sam could decide for himself if that was what he wanted and then lying for months afterwards that I disagreed with. Especially after Sam seemed to be suffering with what was happening to him.

*** The narrative in season 10 when Sam decided to do the same thing wasn't quite as forgiving of Sam, I thought, but in season 9, I thought it was of Dean's decision.

Pretty much agree with all of this! Definitely the shows worst storyline ever. 

[Myrelle]

I really don't care why he didn't apologize, but if he would do it again regardless of his reasoning, than an apology would be pointless, IMO.  And maybe that's why Sam and John and Mary rarely use/used the words "I'm sorry" when they've offered apologies-because they're not/weren't really and truly sorry and whatever they'd done, they'd just do again. And maybe that was how Dean came up with the idea that you can apologize and not really mean it and that people just need/want to hear words to that effect for everything to be A OK.

[rue721]

16 hours ago, Airmid said:

Dean's heaven consisted of Sam, his mother giving him pie and Zach screwing with it. I can't help but think that through John he has placed Mary on a pedestal which would be interesting to explore. But no, I don't think Dean needs the virgin as his mom. He just wants his mom. But he's not getting that either because she ran away from them. Which is essentially what the BMOL is for her.

I think they actually did explore the idea that Dean had Mary on a pedestal. Judging by how often Mary and Sam brought up the idea for a while there, I think that they both were worried that he did or assumed that that was the case -- which was pretty reasonable, IMO, because Dean had always been pretty protective of Mary's memory. Right in the pilot, there was that moment when Dean pushed Sam up against the bridge railing and was pretty pissed off at him because Sam had referred to Mary too flippantly.

But then, the show revealed that Dean didn't really have a mythos around Mary built up, and that he was so protective of the time before she died for other reasons. Or, that's what I got from his line to her about not having a childhood, anyway. YMMV.

What his reasons for being so protective of "Then" (as the show calls it) actually *are,* though, I'm not 100% sure. I think probably, that time (before Mary died) represents his state of grace, and his innocence, and it's important to him to remember that he was capable of that or once had that. But I dunno. A point that maybe goes against that theory, though, is that in the season opener, Dean recited his parents' "how we met" story like it was a catechism (despite not even having been a twinkle in his mother's eye then). That recitation was disturbing to me at the time, and I'm still not sure what it was about.

Edited March 12, 2017 by rue721