Spike: Out. For. A. Walk... Bitch.

[Lisin]

Here's your place to talk about this character. If you have a fun name for it let me know in the comments and I can change it.

[KittenPokerCheater]

I know that many many people loathe Spike with the power of a thousand suns, which is a perfectly valid opinion and one that I utterly respect.  Then there are people like me, who kind of adore him.  Either way, I found him to be an infinitely more interesting character because he was both good and bad, but never seemed to lose his sense a humor.

I look forward to reading what others like/dislike about him.

Edited April 2, 2014 by KittenPokerCheater

[Maleficent]

Loathe Spike?  I think you have that confused.  LOVE Spike.  Everyone loves him, right?  They must, because I just can't imagine anything else.  What I love about him is that in a TV with characters split in the realm of good and evil, black and white, he was a big patch of grey.  That's with him trying his hardest to be evil.  His complexity is compelling.  James Marsters played that in and out, one season role into a juggernaut.  

He's still my favorite character of the whole series.  Next is Xander, because the guy with no superpowers who still has a sense of humor after the 5th or 6th apocalypse is a keeper.

[Carrie Ann]

I love Spike too, but I think some people ended up not liking him because of the hero treatment he got in Seasons 5-7. A LOT of time was spent on Spike and his relationship with Buffy, and some people felt that that came at the expense of other characters and relationships. (Plus, you know, he attempted to rape Buffy, which can be hard to move past.)

When I rewatched earlier this year, I actually liked Spike's arc more than I did when it originally aired. And while I'll always miss the evil Spike of the early seasons, I like having him around, and they just really couldn't have done that without making him less evil. And I appreciate his journey to trying to be a good person. Maybe it was originally for the wrong reasons (Buffy), but that's why I like the Spike arc of Season 7. Because he actually has no expectations or demands of Buffy. Once he's de-crazified, he just wants to help if they want his help. There are a bunch of similar characters/arcs on other shows that skip this critical piece of redemption and they are not as successful because of it.

[Endeavour]

Spike was probably overused but I always enjoyed his character. I know a lot of people weren't happy that he moved over to AtS but I didn't mind. I liked the humor and history between him and Angel. Spike was a complex character and I found that interesting.

[LittleVoice]

I like Spike. I wouldn't say he was ever my favorite character, but he was usually entertaining and had a great arc. Plus I named my cat after him. 

Things Spike the vampire and Spike the cat have in common:

• Wear mostly black.
• Sharp, often prominent, canine teeth.
• Occasionally steal underwear.
• Even when they're being naughty, you can't help but like them.

[Earl Is Dead]

Since I watched AtS before I was fully versed in BtVS, Spike as a character didn't bother me.  I think it's for the same reasons described above: He was consistenly fun and/or funny, James Marsters totally sold the role, and he was interesting on the evil scale.  The only plot point I took issue with was his "relationship" with Buffy in S6 coming before he was re-ensouled.  To me, there's no character development in evil demons, and watching Buffy debase herself with him as a result of her being at her lowest low, was just painful and sad.  I didn't mind S7's Buffy and Spike relationship because at least he was finally her "equal" (of sorts). 

Edited April 4, 2014 by Earl Is Dead

[CletusMusashi]

I think he was a great character who the writers eventually fell too much in love with and lost their perspective. 

I could accept his pre-soul crush on Buffy. He does have a history of falling for problematic girlfriends, he does respect a good ass-kicking, and, let's face it, after Harmony, I wouldn't have been surprised if he fell for Clem. But the actually wanting a soul? That was a bit much. When it first aired, I thought he was trying to get his chip removed, and the demon screwed him over by giving him a soul instead. That arc, I could get behind. But then the writers had to go back and retcon everything to show how even when he first became a vampire he was actually a sweet sensitive boy at heart, and that point my bullshit meter skyrocketed.

Somebody over on TVTropes once posted a very interesting hypothesis that, when the doctor in S5 was forced to tinker around with Spike's chip, without proper tools, it resulted, as warned, in permanent brain damage. They were mainly using to explain his sudden passion for Buffy, which manifested at the end of that episode, but it might also explain why, in Season 7, he might remember his early vampire days incorrectly. Which works a lot better for me. Sometimes, especially when you're dealing with Joss Whedon's tendency to get bored and turn every show he writes into "Dollhouse," you've just got to go Death of the Author if you want things to make any sense.

Edited April 7, 2014 by CletusMusashi

[MacGuffin]

I think he was a great character who the writers eventually fell too much in love with and lost their perspective. 

I could accept his pre-soul crush on Buffy. He does have a history of falling for problematic girlfriends, he does respect a good ass-kicking, and, let's face it, after Harmony, I wouldn't have been surprised if he fell for Clem. But the actually wanting a soul? That was a bit much. When it first aired, I thought he was trying to get his chip removed, and the demon screwed him over by giving him a soul instead. That arc, I could get behind. But then the writers had to go back and retcon everything to show how even when he first became a vampire he was actually a sweet sensitive boy at heart, and that point my bullshit meter skyrocketed.

I had the same reaction. A vampire wants their soul back? That made no sense in the universe of the show. If vampires can choose redemption and a soul rather than it being forced upon them, doesn't that make the Slayer a murderer? She often kills vamps before they can do anything as soon as they pop out of the grave.

[KittenPokerCheater]

Is it out for a walk Bint?  All these years I thought it was "out for a walk...bitch." 

One of the things about Spike that I liked was that he CHOSE to get re-souled.

He also had the best quips.  The whole comparing people to "Happy meals with legs."  Hee!

[Loandbehold]

It is bitch. Not you, KPC, the quote. I didn't even notice it until today.

[riley702]

Could we change the name of the thread to the correct quote?

[Moo]

I had the same reaction. A vampire wants their soul back? That made no sense in the universe of the show. If vampires can choose redemption and a soul rather than it being forced upon them, doesn't that make the Slayer a murderer? She often kills vamps before they can do anything as soon as they pop out of the grave.

Back when the show was still airing, I used to read fanfic (don't judge me, I was young lol). I saw a thousand and one explanations for Spike's impetus to get a soul and only one ever made sense to me: not all vamps are the same. Just like you get variation in humans (Mother Theresa and Ted Bundy for instance), it made sense to me that you would get variations in vampires too. Some would retain just a little bit of their humanity, and some would be utterly absorbed by the demon. The Judge said that Spike and Dru stank of humanity, but Angelus didn't have any. That made sense to me. Spike and Dru loved each other, whereas Angelus wasn't capable of that emotion at all. There are many aspects of Spike that make it acceptable to me that he'd seek out a soul: chained by the chip and exposed to no-one but the Scoobs for a prolonged period, his love/obsession for Buffy, his near constant want of affection (whether as a human or a vamp), and of course his ultimate motivator - wanting to prove Buffy wrong. All those times she said he couldn't feel because he didn't have a soul. I can totally see the King of Contrary thinking "I'll show her". I can see all those things pushing him to make some kind of change. And it seems utterly Spike that he would follow his heart. It's canon that that's his driving force, whether human or vampire.

 

As evidenced, I'm a huge Spike fan. Have been for about 17 years now lol. But my favourite character has always been Buffy.

Edited April 10, 2014 by Moo

[riley702]

Hey, nothing wrong with fanfic! OK, a lot of it is dreck, but the gems are well worth looking for.

[MacGuffin]

Back when the show was still airing, I used to read fanfic (don't judge me, I was young lol). I saw a thousand and one explanations for Spike's impetus to get a soul and only one ever made sense to me: not all vamps are the same. Just like you get variation in humans (Mother Theresa and Ted Bundy for instance), it made sense to me that you would get variations in vampires too. Some would retain just a little bit of their humanity, and some would be utterly absorbed by the demon. The Judge said that Spike and Dru stank of humanity, but Angelus didn't have any. That made sense to me. Spike and Dru loved each other, whereas Angelus wasn't capable of that emotion at all. There are many aspects of Spike that make it acceptable to me that he'd seek out a soul: chained by the chip and exposed to no-one but the Scoobs for a prolonged period, his love/obsession for Buffy, his near constant want of affection (whether as a human or a vamp), and of course his ultimate motivator - wanting to prove Buffy wrong. All those times she said he couldn't feel because he didn't have a soul. I can totally see the King of Contrary thinking "I'll show her". I can see all those things pushing him to make some kind of change. And it seems utterly Spike that he would follow his heart. It's canon that that's his driving force, whether human or vampire.

So what does that make the Slayer? If vampires can be redeemed, should she not kill them until they can ascertain their level of humanity?

[Wilowy]

Full disclosure just so you guys don't think we got the quote wrong: I used 'Bint' in the subject title as a play on words. Lisin was kind enough to change it to the actual quote when the confusion arose. :)

Re: the Buffy As Murderer question, I've seen that discussed before, but never to a satisfactory resolution. I don't think any other vamps had ever been ensouled before Angel, right? So Spike seeking his as both a 'fuck you' and as a way to possibly woo Buffy both make sense. It's like it was new ground that Spike was seeking to explore. Maybe an evolution of vampires as a species... or Spike could just be an aberration, like a mutant. 

Paging Eric Lehnsherr!

[Moo]

So what does that make the Slayer? If vampires can be redeemed, should she not kill them until they can ascertain their level of humanity?

It does make me rethink all those nights when Buffy just grabbed some vamp from his grave and poofed him. But if you think about it, most if not all of the vamps Buffy dusted were attacking her, or someone else. I always fanwanked that it wasn't something that young vamps experienced. Spike was over 100, and even by the time he got to a place where he sought some level of humanity, he'd murdered half of Europe lol. I never saw it as Buffy killing potentially savable creatures; at the most I saw it as Buffy denying these creatures the chance to reach a level so low by being a killing machine, they'd want to crawl out. Also, Buffy was not a protector of all; she was a protector of humans. It's like a tiger coming at you, you have a shotgun but you stop because hey, maybe he just wants to nuzzle you or something. I don't see what Buffy did as wrong. She was saving people, which was her raison d'etre. What I would have thought wrong is Buffy encountering a vamp who had transcended his thirst for killing humans (like Spike, to a degree) or at least was reaching for it, and poofing him/her. That would be a dick move IMO. 

Edited April 10, 2014 by Moo

[MacGuffin]

It does make me rethink all those nights when Buffy just grabbed some vamp from his grave and poofed him. But if you think about it, most if not all of the vamps Buffy dusted were attacking her, or someone else. I always fanwanked that it wasn't something that young vamps experienced. Spike was over 100, and even by the time he got to a place where he sought some level of humanity, he'd murdered half of Europe lol. I never saw it as Buffy killing potentially savable creatures; at the most I saw it as Buffy denying these creatures the chance to reach a level so low by being a killing machine, they'd want to crawl out. Also, Buffy was not a protector of all; she was a protector of humans. It's like a tiger coming at you, you have a shotgun but you stop because hey, maybe he just wants to nuzzle you or something. I don't see what Buffy did as wrong. She was saving people, which was her raison d'etre. What I would have thought wrong is Buffy encountering a vamp who had transcended his thirst for killing humans (like Spike, to a degree) or at least was reaching for it, and poofing him/her. That would be a dick move IMO. 

I think my main problem is that until Spike we were never shown that vamps had this capability. Which is why everyone assumed (until told after the fact) that Spike was trying to get the chip out, not get a soul.

To many of us, it seemed like they were rewriting the rules of the universe to get Spike and Buffy into a more conventional romance/relationship.

I dislike being told how special a character is, rather than letting me reach that conclusion on my own. I really enjoyed Spike, until season 7 when this change happened. Because that's when the change happened - I've read quotes from Buffy writers and producers that they meant to fake the audience out on the chip/soul thing. Except they weren't faking us out at all, they were merely continuing with the rules of the universe they had fleshed out over six seasons. Only ex post facto was "he got his soul back for Buffy" idea even considered possible.

It wasn't a fake out, it was a line of bullshit. That's why I soured on Spike at the end.

Thankfully, there was far less Buffy-motivation when he popped up on Angel. Then he was back to being awesome.

[Wilowy]

 

I think my main problem is that until Spike we were never shown that vamps had this capability.

That's why I posited they might have thought about vamp evolution or mutantism with Spike. Maybe I've been watching too much Marvel lately.

[Carrie Ann]

I would definitely be interested to learn why Spike seemed to retain a certain measure of human feeling for others, while no other vamps we saw did. I would prefer if he was exceptional in some way, because as previously mentioned, Buffy was out there killing vamps with no regard so I'd rather not believe they all could have been redeemed.

[KittenPokerCheater]

I always thought that Spike, with his awful awful poetry, was just waaay to human to begin with- it seemed like he and Dru were so in love they were almost human.  I'm not sure we ever saw any other vampire pair so in love (I never thought Angel loved Darla but ymmv).  But this may be indeed a Marvel comics kind of theory and I need to read some Plato and books on economics to balance things out.

I used 'Bint' in the subject title as a play on words

I must be 97 thousand years old, because I'm not sure what "bint" and why it's a play on words.  Get off my lawn.

[Wilowy]

Ha, because Spike used to say it (a British term for bitch), and I thought it would be amusing to switch it out. I obviously was wrong. ;)

Hey, at least two whole people found it funny! 

[Dianthus]

Good, bad, or just "ok," Spike is/was/always shall be my favorite BtVS character. Yes, even considering the events of Seeing Red. Maybe it's just me, but I think it's kinda nuts people are more upset over that than Spike, or Angelus, or Willow trying to kill Buffy/end the world. That's, what, just the price of doing business?

Buffy's relationship with him in s6 was central to her character arc, as difficult as it could be to watch at times. We saw the darkness inherent in the Slayer's power starting in When She Was Bad, before Spike was even introduced. That darkness was woven throughout s3. Don't forget Buffy was perfectly ready to kill Faith/feed her to Angel. We saw it again in Who Are You? and Buffy vs. Dracula. It was part of her relationship with Spike, and we saw the root of it in Get it Done. She needed to come to terms with that darkness, and Spike helped her get there.

The chip certainly played it's part in his transformation, but Spike was different even before that. He had his own selfish reasons for doing so, but he approached Buffy under a flag of truce, to ally with her against Angelus. Not just any vamp would turn his back on his own kind, on evil, for love. Also, the chip offered only negative stimulation. Do this, and zap! By hurting others, he hurts himself. There was no equal reward for doing good. With the repression of his worst instincts, his latent humanity started coming to the fore. 

[CletusMusashi]

I honestly liked his S2 teamup with Buffy because it made perfect sense. I didn't feel like "oh, he wants to save the world; see,he's not all bad." Of course he wants to save the world. He's in it! I'm sure Hitler, Saddam Hussein, and Carrot Top would rather not be plunged into hell either, but it doesn't mean they aren't supervillains. If anything, I'd rather have had a little more explanation about what The Church of Aurelius was trying to accomplish. Angelus, not so much. Angelus was a very flamboyant emo villain who usually overthought his villiany because he didn't have a mustache to twirl. So him plunging his world into hell in order to annoy Buffy, I could almost see, But Spike was the evil pragamatist. "We do still kill them, you know. We don't just leave gag gifts in their friends' beds." That was the real Spike.

[Wilowy]

Heh... Carrot Top.

[Dianthus]

I liked the Buffy/Spike alliance in s2 myself. It made perfect sense, and as soon as Spike saw his chance to grab Dru and go, he took it. I'm even more glad it lead to Dru dumping him for being too "soft." She'd tried to remake him as Angelus (she'll always want her Daddy), and this was his ultimate rejection of Angelus.

[midge]

My favorite Spike personality quirk was the way he respected/liked Buffy's mom.   Made sense with his upbringing, but it was still a cute quirk. 

[Wilowy]

I love it when he's behind Joyce taunting Angel - "You're a very bad man!" and making bitey faces and Joyce doesn't have a clue that she invited the monster in and the good guy is on the other side of the door. xD

[Dianthus]

I love Spike and Joyce together, in Lovers Walk and Checkpoint especially. I think some of the respect he had for her actually came from when she tried to brain him with that axe in School Hard. It's only 'right and proper' for a mum to defend her child, after all.

[harrie]

I like the Spike/Joyce dynamic too.   One of my favorite exchanges is in where Spike and Joyce sit uncomfortably in the living room.

 

Joyce: Have we met?
Spike: Uh, you hit me with an axe one time. Remember, uh, "Get the hell away from my daughter"?

 

But i like just about all of the show's uncomfortable scenes and awkward silences - you don't see a lot of that on the tube (at least I don't)..  

[Dianthus]

Spike's not really one for polite small talk. It's all big rude talk in s2.

 

I love, love, love the two of them bonding over the soap Passions. Totes Adorbs. I tried to watch it once. Once. What a howler.

[CletusMusashi]

Me and another guy at work actually ended up watching "Passions" for a while just to see what the deal was with that.

Yikes. If nothing else puts the quality of late-season "Buffy" into perspective, I guess "Passions" does. What a psychotically addictive crapfest that was... aka, the perfect thing for Spike to be watching when he's lost his ability to actually go out and act like Spike!

[Wilowy]

My fave Spike-related Passions moment occurred when he wasn't even onscreen. 

 

His yelling "PASSIONS IS ON!!" when Giles had him chained in the bathtub and everyone else was in the living room was comedy gold. I still laugh when I think about it. 

[Dianthus]

It takes real talent to steal a scene when you're not even in it!

[Cobalt Stargazer]

Good, bad, or just "ok," Spike is/was/always shall be my favorite BtVS character. Yes, even considering the events of Seeing Red. Maybe it's just me, but I think it's kinda nuts people are more upset over that than Spike, or Angelus, or Willow trying to kill Buffy/end the world. That's, what, just the price of doing business?

 

Since I was one of those people, I'll try to field this. IMO, it *is* the cost of doing business that villains will try to end the world if they can. Angelus, Willow, Lex Luthor, most Bond villains, etc, for one reason or another, no matter how asinine, they're out to kill everybody, or at least utterly cow them into submission. Why? Because they're the bad guys, that's why.

 

Further, Spike claimed that he was in love with Buffy. The fact that this supposed love didn't crop up until he had some ridiculous dream aside, if she had been in her right mind, she never would have gotten involved with him, even sexually. If a monster falls in love with a hero, that's one thing. If a hero returns those feelings, they're not really a hero anymore, IMO. BTVS was never supposed to be a show about gray morality, and it *wasn't* one until Joss decided that Spike was such a special snowflake that he was the only vampire in the history of ever who could decide to get a soul. If he can do it, why couldn't others? Buffy herself was never my favorite character on the show to begin with, but I don't appreciate her retroactively being made into a killer because there was the chance that some vamp somewhere could have opted to reform. YMMV.

[Wilowy]

I never felt that Buffy stopped being a hero because Spike came to be "in her heart". 

 

He fought alongside them all, contributing substantial fighting power and crafty distraction to their cause. He did seek out a soul to be a better creature, and never really lost sight of who, or what, he was. Yeah, he was smitten, and acted accordingly... but Buffy had her share of detours, as one very human, imperfect being would. 

 

She was never my favorite character either, Willow was (so much that my daughter proudly carries her name), but I dislike seeing her called 'not a hero'.  Buffy saved the world many, many times ("A lot", in fact), and though even ONCE would have been enough to call her hero and make it stick, her innate bravery and dedication to humanity, even while embracing some of its flaws, was her strength, and her truth. 

[Dianthus]

Cobalt Stargazer: I beg to differ. BtVS is about growing up. It's about emerging from the black and white world of childhood into the grey world of adulthood.

As for Spike being a "special snowflake," it's not so simple as that. Spike is a pragmatist. He works with the Slayer long before he gets chipped. He makes truce with the Slayer of his kind to get what he (thinks he) wants, namely Dru. He works with her again in Lovers Walk, also pre-chip. Then, with the chip suppressing his more violent impulses, his latent humanity finds expression. His love for Buffy is much like his love for Dru. Selfish and possessive, yes, but genuine. Plus, his response to the AR shows how much he's changed. That's what matters, to me. He knew it was wrong, he cared that it was wrong, and he undertook a freaking Hero's Journey to fix the problem.

The only other character who has a similar arc is Oz. Parallels are drawn between the two in New Moon Rising. Oz hurt Willow terribly, so he ran off to find a cure, to be a different (i.e., better) person. Still, in the end he lets Willow go so she can be with Tara, just as Spike lets Buffy go in Chosen.

 

In her right mind, Buffy recognizes what Spike did for her and Dawn in Intervention. He is fully a part of the team for the rest of the season. It's not the same as having a sexual relationship with him, I grant you, but it partially informs her decision to do so, IMO.

 

Willowy: I agree. Buffy never stops being a hero, even in the depths of her misery.

Edited June 2, 2014 by Dianthus

[Cobalt Stargazer]

Cobalt Stargazer: I beg to differ. BtVS is about growing up. It's about emerging from the black and white world of childhood into the grey world of adulthood.

 

 

Dianthus, I beg to differ in kind. Having a sexual relationship with a serial killer is not a part of (normal) growing up. It's one of the reasons Xander and Anya became problematic for me. I liked Anya, or at least I liked her more than I liked Spike, but it kind of did Xander no favors when she was sitting around joking about all the people she killed.

 

And one of my other peeves is that Spike's sudden "love" for Buffy made a lie out of a hundred and however many years of him trying to win Dru's affections away from Angel/Angelus. Given his obsessive nature, his proud claims of being love's bitch, how does it make sense that he'd just turn on a dime and forget all of that? I'm aware that Dru isn't everyone's cup of tea, but Spike was very clearly utterly besotted with her when he first showed up. How is it believable that a dream changes the record that's been playing in his head for over a century?

 

Also, I think 'special snowflake' is totally accurate, since Spike was the *only* vampire who ever willingly got a soul. What makes him so special/different/separate from other vamps that he'd voluntarily give up what he called 'happy meals on legs'? If he had that capacity all that time, the ability to change, doesn't it make him even worse that he didn't do it before? I know that the trope of the Bad Boy reforming for the love of a Good Woman has been around for ages, but IMO that just reduces Buffy to being the vessel of his redemption and nothing more, and I don't like that idea. I respect you or anyone else who disagrees, but as you can tell I feel strongly about this. :-)

[Jack Shaftoe]

 

Dianthus, I beg to differ in kind. Having a sexual relationship with a serial killer is not a part of (normal) growing up.

 

This. So much. Just imagine any judge or police officer admitting to having a sexual relationship with a serial killer (while knowing exactly what crimes said killer has committed, obviously). They wouldn't survive a day longer in office and nobody would buy the excuse that this is a relatively normal thing to do. Yet, somehow when it comes to fiction many fans think it's okay. I don't get it, I really don't. This isn't gray morality, it is characters behaving like lunatics. Gray morality is for example Giles killing Ben.

 

 

He knew it was wrong, he cared that it was wrong, and he undertook a freaking Hero's Journey to fix the problem.

 

Why would a creature without conscience give a f@ck that his actions are wrong? It makes no sense. The obvious solution for a soulless serial killer would be to turn Buffy into a vampire a not himself into a souled vampire. If Spike can care that his actions are wrong why didn't he care about any of the previous thousands of people he murdered? Ironically, the more capable of remorse people try to portray him the bigger monster he becomes because he apparently never allowed this to stop him from killing and raping prior to Seeing Red. The average vamp with no conscience has no choice really and is a victim as much as the people he kills. Once you have vampires who are capable of feeling remorse you need to ask the question why that didn't stop them from killing before (this is just as true about Anya and her magically growing plot-dependent conscience). 

 

So, no I don't like Spike. And I like his impact on other characters even less. I can hardly think of another characters who forced everyone to behave wildly OOC just so he could remain in the show.

 

 

Buffy's relationship with him in s6 was central to her character arc, as difficult as it could be to watch at times. We saw the darkness inherent in the Slayer's power starting in When She Was Bad, before Spike was even introduced.

 

Buffy in WSWB exhibited symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder, not some Slayer-inherent darkness, IMO.

 

 

That darkness was woven throughout s3. Don't forget Buffy was perfectly ready to kill Faith/feed her to Angel.

 

Which was the right thing to do (and I don't even like Angel). Nothing really dark about it. Killing the right hand of the Big Bad, when you can't send them to jail and they plot to kill thousands of people is simple common sense. It's not even in the same ball park as Spike or Anya's crimes.

 

 

The chip certainly played it's part in his transformation, but Spike was different even before that. He had his own selfish reasons for doing so, but he approached Buffy under a flag of truce, to ally with her against Angelus. Not just any vamp would turn his back on his own kind, on evil, for love.

 

I suspect something like 99% of vamps would be perfectly willing to ally with just about anybody to get rid of their rival, romantic or other kind. Most wouldn't be stupid or desperate to ally with the Slayer, but that is for self-preservation reasons not for some standards of evilness. And of course, most of would betray the Slayer if given half a chance...just as Spike shrugged and left Buffy alone when Angel seemed to be winning the fight against her. Which to me said he didn't really give a fig about saving the world.

Edited June 2, 2014 by Jack Shaftoe

[Cobalt Stargazer]

He knew it was wrong, he cared it was wrong, and he undertook a freaking Hero's Journey to fix the problem

 

To quote Buffy herself re Spike's doing the right thing:

 

"Let me get this straight. You want *credit* for not feeding off of bleeding disaster victims."

 

Spike: "Well.....yeah."

 

Not to put too fine a point on it, but if you're only doing what's right so that you can score points with a girl you like, isn't that kind of being a Nice Guy? What makes an attempted rape so much worse than the however many hundreds of murders he must have committed before? Because it stops him from getting the girl? I don't see how it's heroic to be sorry for something you actually *didn't* do when all the things you *did* do don't even cross your mind.

Edited June 2, 2014 by Cobalt Stargazer

[Wilowy]

I think this is one of the best arguments I've seen about this subject, and believe me, I've seen them all (for about 15 years now).

 

I think both of you are making salient and informed points, and I agree with both sides, at different times. You're keeping it clean, non-personal and on topic. Great debate! 

[ElleMo]

I would definitely be interested to learn why Spike seemed to retain a certain measure of human feeling for others, while no other vamps we saw did. I would prefer if he was exceptional in some way, because as previously mentioned, Buffy was out there killing vamps with no regard so I'd rather not believe they all could have been redeemed.

He was not completely w/o precedent.  As mentioned earlier, the Judge said that Spike and Dru reeked of humanity. This was just after (or just before?)  he killed another vamp (the one who had glasses and read a lot) because he was too human. But I don't necessarily think that any other vamps could be redeemed.  I like to think that the chip made him want to get his soul back, though I much preferred it when I thought he was looking to get his chip back but the demon screwed him over.

[Jazzy24]

Wasn't Spike's main motivation to get his soul back was so Buffy would love him?

[Dianthus]

Cobalt Statgazer: You are, of course, free to disagree with me, and I will try my best to be respectful in kind.

It was more than "just a dream" that changed Spike's mind. Dru was trying to make him over into Angelus ('cuz part of her will always want her Daddy). His rejection of Angelus's plan put paid to that, and she left him. He tried winning her back, and it didn't work. They'd already established his obsession with Slayers. Here, they just rechanneled it.

I still disagree with the "special snowflake" idea. Not only is Spike a different kind of vampire, he was caught up in special circumstances. That chip in his head suppressed his violent tendencies, meaning he could no longer just bash someone and take his/her stuff. He needed to adapt to changing circumstances. That's one way he is different from other vamps. He's a survivor. Plus, he was socialized by the Scoobies ("the Goody-Good Guys"). It was a combination of factors that enabled his latent and deeply buried ability to change.

I believe they were putting a bit of spin on the old trope you mentioned. This time the Bad Boy is redeemed by his love for A Good Woman, rather than by her love for him.

Buffy is not normal. Not entirely. That's the point. There's a power struggle going on in s6. It's the struggle between Normal Buffy and Slayer Buffy. That's been part of the show almost from the beginning. You could say that Normal Buffy is represented by Riley, and Slayer Buffy is represented by Spike.

 

As for Triangle, Spike is not even trying to call attention to himself. Buffy just happens to notice what he's doing. By helping the injured woman, he's making a small gesture that costs him nothing. It's hardly grand heroics, but it is what a good guy would do. He's reluctantly becoming part of a group that's reluctant to have him. Also, it's a remarkable display of restraint on his part, IMO.

 

Spike is very sorry for the other things he did, once he's gotten his soul. I for one would've been interested in the possibility of soulless redemption for Spike, but that wasn't in the cards.

 

I'm not saying I agree with all the choices Whedon & Co. made here. Spike has to reach a certain point to want his soul, but, by Whedon's own "logic," he shouldn't be able to reach such a point without it. It's a hell of a catch, that Catch-22.

 

Jack Shaftoe: Buffy died and was resurrected at the end of s1, not so much different than dying in s5 and being resurrected in s6. On one level, sure, it could be considered PTSD. On another, it speaks to what it means to be the Slayer. We also see darkness in Faith in s3 and s4. We find out that the Slayer's power is rooted in darkness, in s7 (GiD).

 

Spike cared for a change 'cuz he was changing, due to the combination of factors I mentioned earlier.

 

Willowy: Thanx. Feel free to give me a nudge, if you ever think I need one.

 

Jazzy24: That was part of his motivation, sure. OTOH, I've come to think he did it as much for himself as for Buffy. He realized that he couldn't go on as he was, not one thing or the other. You might say he had reached a certain "tipping point." It goes back to the growing up theme. Being a vampire could be considered a sort of arrested adolescence. It could also be considered a metaphor for addiction.

In Lovers Walk, Spike suddenly doubles over, clutching his head, and says:

"Oi, my head....Think I'm soberin' up."

Getting a chip. AA members get chips, don't they? Spike gets clean, and he mostly stays clean. He's even willing to accept responsibility for the people he killed under TFE's influence. He presents himself for the staking, and awaits Buffy's judgment. That's why he's my hero.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

Dianthus, I might be misreading you, so correct me if I am, but you seem to be implying that Spike grew a conscience even before he got the soul. Now I'm not a psychiatrist, nor do I play one on television, but I don't think that's how it works. Hell, we can't even cure *human* monsters like Bundy and Dahmer who actually did have souls, at least theoretically. Guilt is something you either feel or you don't IMO, it doesn't have an on/off switch. Logic, or "logic" since this is Joss' world we're talking about, still kind of means that it has to be one thing or the other, but it can't be both.

 

Also, it was precisely my point that it didn't cost Spike anything not to feed on that woman. If you only give when it doesn't hurt, then it doesn't actually mean anything, or at least it doesn't mean as much IMO. The true hero's path is a hard one to walk. It's narrow and steep and there are rocks that can make you stumble and fall. It's why Faith wandered so far afield, and her first kill was actually an accident instead of something she dd on purpose. I have a very hard time picturing Spike willingly allowing himself to be confined to a windowless cell while he ponders the errors of his ways in between bouts of guard and fellow prisoner harassment. Not only does he seem to not get, even with a soul, that killing is something he should feel guilty about in the first place, he'd probably murder anyone who looked at him cross-eyed in a closed environment like prison. Because that's just how he rolls.

 

Re The Coat, because I don't want to clutter up the season seven topic with further talk about it, I think its worth noting that it's exactly what I said it was, a trophy of a murder Spike was proud of. A murder he ground Wood's face in, not IMO coincidentally *before* Buffy showed up. Would he have said "I don't give a piss about your mum" if Buffy had been standing there? Somehow, I think not, which brings us back to only doing the right thing when you want to impress someone. And that stuff about "Well, Wood was trying to kill him, of course he was angry!" doesn't work for me, because it implies that Nikki's life is worth less than Spike's existence, and that's a gross idea to me. The lives Nikki would have saved if she'd killed Spike in that subway far outweigh any potential good he *might* have done one day. Unlike Angel, Spike had no path, no plan set in place. If he hadn't met Buffy, he wouldn't have (supposedly) changed at all. Can there be more than one hero? Sure. But Spike's not it. JMO.

[Jack Shaftoe]

 

hat's one way he is different from other vamps. He's a survivor.Dianthus, I might be misreading you, so correct me if I am, but you seem to be implying that Spike grew a conscience even before he got the soul. Now I'm not a psychiatrist, nor do I play one on television, but I don't think that's how it works. Hell, we can't even cure *human* monsters like Bundy and Dahmer who actually did have souls, at least theoretically. Guilt is something you either feel or you don't IMO, it doesn't have an on/off switch.

 

Agreed.

 

 

That's one way he is different from other vamps. He's a survivor.

 

Are we talking about the same guy who went to the Slayer for help when he found he couldn't kill people any more? I know it worked through the miracle of plot contrivance but Spike couldn't know that, this action was as suicidal as they come. He also loved mouthing off people who hated him despite being helpless due to the chip. He kidnapped Buffy and then was shocked, shocked I am telling you, that she dis-invited him and that her friends gave him death glares.

 

 

On another, it speaks to what it means to be the Slayer. We also see darkness in Faith in s3 and s4. We find out that the Slayer's power is rooted in darkness, in s7 (GiD).

 

Due to Joss's love of (crappy) redemption stories we see "darkness" in just about all main characters. Personally I don't see any inherent darkness in being a Slayer. Out of the four Slayers we got to know better only Faith has blood on her hands and her problem was more the favourite Whedon topic - daddy issues, than anything Slayer-related.

 

 

Getting a chip. AA members get chips, don't they? Spike gets clean, and he mostly stays clean. He's even willing to accept responsibility for the people he killed under TFE's influence. He presents himself for the staking, and awaits Buffy's judgment.

 

He knew there was no chance of Buffy actually taking him up on that offer since she refused to kill him many times before despite having better reasons than the trigger nonsense, so in my opinion this was just Spike being a drama queen again.

Edited June 5, 2014 by Jack Shaftoe

[Jazzy24]

Another thing is that Spike with a soul didn't seem all that different from the Spike without a soul. I didn't expect such a difference like there is with Angel and Angelus, it's just that he seemed like the same old Spike.

[Dianthus]

Cobalt Stargazer: Who would've thought that having a behavior modification chip in his head would cause Spike to modify his behavior? He's adapting to changing circumstances. Seeing things from a different perspective. That says he has a brain in his head and he is capable of using it, from time-to-time.

When it came to violence, Dru egged him on, and Angelus made it into some kind of pissing contest. Spike is a social being. He responds to the influence of others. Buffy and the Scoobies give him a new outlet for violence, but it's more directed. It's no longer about causing terror, and hurting people just for kicks. It's about subduing a threat.

Faith is human. There are different rules for humans in the Jossverse. Spike doesn't go to prison? So what? He still suffers. Torture from Glory and TFE, and abuse from Buffy herself.

Besides which, we're not talking about real life. We're talking about a work of fiction in which metaphor and symbolism play important roles.

Spike had no plan? Who said he did? That's a straw man argument.

Nikki's life was worth as much as anyone's. Another straw man.

At the time, he took her coat as a trophy, yes. It's something soldiers occasionally do, from the battlefield. Spike is still a demon, even with a soul. The coat has been his ever since. Robin tried to take it from him, it wasn't a fair fight, and he failed.

Spike's not a hero? I think Buffy herself would disagree, given her choice of Champion.

 

Jack Shaftoe: Spike has already worked with Buffy against a common enemy in s2 and s3. He does the same thing in s4. What's suicidal in that? Riley tells Buffy in Pangs (IIRC) that home is where, when you have to go there, they have to take you in. Spike has a seat at the table. He's tied to his chair, but he's present. He's there again in Family. Not Angel. Not Riley. He's the black sheep of said family, but he's family all the same.

There's no darkness in Faith going to work for the Mayor? Her first human kill is an accident. She could've come back from that. Buffy and Giles were willing to help her. She made a choice to turn her back on them.

Then there's Buffy vs. Dracula.

Buffy (to Giles): "Hunting. That's what Dracula called it. And he was right. He understood my power better than I do. He saw darkness in it. I need to know more. About where I come from, about the other Slayers. I mean maybe...maybe if I could learn to control this thing, I could be stronger, I could be better."  

Buffy will learn more, but it won't be Dracula who teaches her.

Spike isn't the only vampire Buffy doesn't Slay. Dru and Harmony live to guest star another day. She does, however, run Angel thro with a sword to save the world. Spike knows this. That's the Buffy he's expecting.

 

Jazzy24: In a sense, it is the same old Spike. He's still a demon. The big difference between him and Angel is that Spike had changed to a point where he wanted his soul. Angelus never wanted it. For him, it was a prison, nothing more. Soon as he was free, he went right back to his old ways.

What's more, he killed the only person who could restore his soul, or so he thought. Nor did he ever do anything, once his soul was restored, to fix it in place. You could argue that he had a moral obligation to do so, once he understood that aspect of the curse.

Edited June 8, 2014 by Dianthus

[Cobalt Stargazer]

I'm actually really enjoying having this dialogue with you, Dianthus, because even though I disagree with you pretty much at every turn, ts been interesting to get the perspective of someone who actually sees Spike as a good 'person'. That hasn't happened in a while.

 

However.

 

I don't think saying that Spike not going to prison (or whatever would be the equivalent for a being that can't survive in the sunlight would be) is a straw man argument at all. Faith finally turned herself over to the cops and went to jail because she knew that she needed some serious downtime in order to get her mind right, to get with the spirit of being a Slayer rather than exploiting her powers for her own purposes. To stop being a big bully and become someone who wants to help people. And she didn't need someone to put a chip in her head for that to happen. She modified her behavior because she *wanted* to, not because someone forced her into it. I don't think the same thing can be said for Spike at all.

 

Second point: If Nikki's life means as much as anyone's, why did Spike act as if Wood had mortally insulted him by being angry about his mother's murder?  Why did Buffy compound it by galloping into the room and saying that she'd allow Spike to kill Wood too if he inconvenienced the poor widdle murderer again? Isn't the idea to *prevent* human casualties, not *cause* them? Also, Spike was not a soldier when he killed Nikki. He killed her because he enjoyed killing and so he could get another Slayer notch on his belt. Her death meant that other innocent people would die because she couldn't save them, and since I can only presume that Spike went on to kill even more people after he murdered her, that IMO undercuts the idea that he was capable of change. He was only not hurting people to prevent himself from being hurt by the chip, and even then the second he thought the chip had been removed he tried to go back to his murdering ways. Because that's what natural born killers *do*.

 

To draw a further comparison, let's consider Angelus murdering Jenny in Passion. Like Nikki, Jenny was trying to help and do the right thing by gathering the components for the souling spell to bring Angel back. She was trying to fix it so that a monster wasn't a problem anymore, and she got her neck broken for her trouble. Now, imagine Angel telling Giles the same thing that Spike told Robin, that not only did he not feel bad about killing Jenny, but that on top of that she *deserved* to die for not taking herself out of the equation. Is that the "heroism" Spike represents?

 

Basically, it comes down to humility for me, the knowledge that you've done something terrible and that it haunts you to the point that you literally think you're going insane. It's not spending five minutes feeling kinda-sorta-maybe guilty, then snapping out of it as soon as you put your Fonzie jacket back on. If Spike was capable of being remotely humble, he'd have left the damned coat on the trash heap of his past where it belonged, not worn it proudly and act as if Wood was the one with the problem. If the idea is that guilt is for sissies (like Angel, like Faith) then fine, Spike's a real hero after all. But if you don't regret your actions, then what's the point of taking a 'hero's journey' at all?

 

Re: Spike's observations about Bangel. Yes, its true that Bangel was not an ideal relationship, but I'll take "idealized" over Dumpster Sex every time. And not for nothing, but even a stopped clock is right twice a day. That doesn't mean you should always look at it to know what time it is.

Edited June 8, 2014 by Cobalt Stargazer

[Dianthus]

Cobalt Stargazer: As you say, we disagree. However, we seem able to do so without being disagreeable. I appreciate that too.

 

I see Spike as a complicated person, a walking tangle of contradictions. It can be frustrating at times, but it makes him more interesting, IMO.  

 

The chip was forced on him. He readily admits that, as will I. However, it teaches him that by hurting others, he hurts himself. It suppresses his more violent tendencies, forcing him to find new ways of dealing with his world and the people around him.

From New Moon Rising:

Initiative Doctor (prodding Oz into wolfing out after zapping him with a stun gun) "See that? Transformation related to negative stimulation."

Zap somebody often enough, and they might change. The chip started the process, but it didn't end there. There is no commensurate reward for "good" behavior. That had to come from somewhere else.

 

Robin did more than inconvenience Spike. He tried to kill him. Is Spike just supposed to stand there and let him? Is Buffy? They understand why Robin does what he does. That doesn't mean they have to like it. Plus, Spike warns Buffy that he will kill Robin if he tries again. That is in no way trying to win points or curry favor.

Nor does Spike tell Robin that Nikki deserved to die. Spike reminds Robin that Nikki was in harm's way as the Slayer. They fought and he won. Nikki knew Spike was out there. He made no secret of it. Had she taken more care, their fight might have had a different outcome. Alternatively, it might not have happened at all.  

Buffy chooses how to respond to Spike's declaration and what she'd do if anything happened. She warns Robin in turn. She also makes it clear that she doesn't have time for his personal vendetta.

Guilt is not for sissies. That's another straw man.

Spike was insane, for multiple episodes of s7. He was willing to accept responsibility for the people he killed under the 1st's influence. He kneels before Buffy and presents himself for the staking. Seems humble to me. However, he's not the sort to beat himself up over the things he can't change. He's proud to be a fighter.

 

As for the dumpster sex - Buffy's been dumped, she's down in the dumps, and she will dump Spike. It's a visual metaphor. Also, Spike is shielding Buffy with his body. So you've got the suggestion of Spike as her shield. That scene is the only good part of an otherwise lousy ep.