Indian Summers - General Discussion

[lucindabelle]

You're right I apologize for overreacting.. it's really not on topic here and given the anniversary im just a little thin skinned. But I do wonder about the historical accuracy of is show. There's a weird logic in making the Brits out to be even worse at that time than they would have been, I lived in the Deep South for four years and remember reading student papers in which the children imagined white people randomly atoning black people whenever they saw them.

[JudyObscure]

I missed the first twenty minutes of last night's episode due to Downton Abbey's interference.  I did see most of the trial, I think. The  Scotsman's excellent defense ignored.  Dougie defending his girlfriend from the courtroom floor -- what an idiot. Sarah throwing up and all the lipsticked ladies enjoying it.  I hate these people.

 

So I guess Ralph's sandals are supposed to state the obvious?  We know Ralph is capable of murder after pushing that man head first down a flight of stairs. 

 

There's a weird logic in making the Brits out to be even worse at that time than they would have been,

I know what you mean Lucindabelle.  My Minnesota in-laws think I must surely be a racist since I'm from West Virginia.  They persist in thinking it's the western side of Virginia. My non-Christian friends and relatives think we sit in church and rant about gays and the evils of rock-n-roll.  My lesbian, Episcopalian pastor would be so surprised.  TV and movies do fan the flames of self-righteous bigot-hatred, and it can create a lot of false stereotypes.  To bring it back to topic, I, too, found it hard to imagine they would have hung a man on such flimsy evidence.

[Milz]

I think the defense would have been successful if they claimed the murderer hid in a a grassy knoll. 

 

Anyhow, this episode made Murder on the Home Front,which aired afterward on my PBS station, very enjoyable

[magdalene]

Unfortunately a lot of the British characters are caricatures of evil or stupidity and made out to to be worse than they actually were. Not Ralph though - that actor seems to be acting in a different, much more complex production.  And since I am stubborn, despite the sandals at the end, I still don't believe he killed Chaya.

[proserpina65]

So I guess Ralph's sandals are supposed to state the obvious?  We know Ralph is capable of murder after pushing that man head first down a flight of stairs.

 

I think that shot was meant to spread the suspicion around.  I personally still think Cynthia had her henchman do it, but beyond proving the unfortunate Mr. Sood innocent, I really don't care that much anymore since I find 99% of these characters thoroughly unlikeable.  Although, surprising, I liked Sunni this week.  At least she's actually doing something to further her aim of getting a legal education, rather than just sitting around whinging.

[skyways]

Does anyone watch Bollywood? Mr Sood looks so much like Bobby Deol.

[Constantinople]

I know what you mean Lucindabelle.  My Minnesota in-laws think I must surely be a racist since I'm from West Virginia.  They persist in thinking it's the western side of Virginia. My non-Christian friends and relatives think we sit in church and rant about gays and the evils of rock-n-roll.  My lesbian, Episcopalian pastor would be so surprised.  TV and movies do fan the flames of self-righteous bigot-hatred, and it can create a lot of false stereotypes.  To bring it back to topic, I, too, found it hard to imagine they would have hung a man on such flimsy evidence.

I too found it hard to imagine, in part -- and here I may be engaging in unfortunate stereotypes -- because I find it hard to imagine the British would have cared who killed some random Indian woman.

[Milz]

I too found it hard to imagine, in part -- and here I may be engaging in unfortunate stereotypes -- because I find it hard to imagine the British would have cared who killed some random Indian woman.

 

EXACTLY!!!!!

[albaniantv]

Although this trial is fiction, similar to the trial in To Kill a Mockingbird, it's the best prop so far for putting the ways and means of this sweltering race-based class system on display. There's half the people from the community, dressed up and awaiting the only public entertainment to be had. Witnesses and lawyers alike are encouraged to be their wittiest in presenting information; there is great competition to showcase superior morals while disparaging others. Guilt seems more by association (with past transgressions or rumored patterns) than by deduction or proof.

 

This trial could easily have happened, perhaps due to the proximity of the events and participants to this temporary seat of power, the summer palaces. Gradually, everyone has a stake in the story, if not the murder itself: the club which maintains social control, the well oiled but never quite intersecting ladders of success for the Indians and the soon departing British and the many participants with long guarded secrets about their financial or emotional or genetic realities.

[JudyObscure]

I Googled on British trials in India and came across this except from a textbook https://books.google.com/books?id=Lm4FVb54_oUC&pg=PA19&lpg=PA19&dq=british+murder+trials+in+india+1930's&source=bl&ots=922rL7Yphe&sig=fPzrIb42Uj3mQKyoyYPszD5ivXs&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CDgQ6AEwBWoVChMI8fLM4oWWyQIVQ-9jCh2eRQSE#v=onepage&q=british%20murder%20trials%20in%20india%201930's&f=false

 

Sorry that it won't copy and paste, but paraphrasing a few bits, it said that by the 1930's  British juries were harsher on their own kind, in their eagerness not to show favoritism and it was very hard to get a murder conviction against an Indian by British juries, even with overwhelming evidence, because they were so "reluctant to send an Indian to the gallows."  

[stanleyk]

I really don't care that much anymore since I find 99% of these characters thoroughly unlikeable.

 

 

Yeah, I don't really know what this show thinks it's doing. Is it possible for all of the characters to be The Worst? I don't need to "like" characters or have someone to root for in order to enjoy a show, but everyone is so uniformly awful, and their motives often so opaque, that it becomes tiresome to watch. Cynthia at this point might as well tie someone to the railroad tracks for all the subtlety of her villainy.

 

I mean, I guess McLeod is okay? And Leena? And Ramu? And those orphan kids haven't done anything annoying yet, I suppose. But it's not just that everyone's unlikeable. They're also kind of dumb and personality-free while being unlikeable (witness: Aafrin, Alice, Dougie, Madeline's brother, Sita, all those bitchy women at the club). The magnetism of possibly murdersome Ralph can't carry this whole affair!

[lucindabelle]

Yes I think the reverse discrimination would have been well in play by this time, but who knows.

I don't think Ralph did it unless he's got some kind of multiple personality disorder... Which could explain the whole demon thing... Because he sincerely was crying at her corpse and he seems puzzled. Why ask if mr stood did it, if he knows.

The judge was Indian wasn't he? If it were a jury trial I could understand mr stood being convicted but a judge? On such weak circumstantial evidence? Why didn't the defense point out that it was nd McLeod that led them to the suspect in the first place so his giving him an alibi holds more weight? Obviously business concerns aren't driving him.

I do not feel bad for Sita. Bitch had it coming. It's only the merest chance Atrino father hasn't been arrested. She didn't know that but it could have happened and it would have been her fault.

[JudyObscure]

Constantinople:

I too found it hard to imagine, in part -- and here I may be engaging in unfortunate stereotypes -- because I find it hard to imagine the British would have cared who killed some random Indian woman.

I don't really think they cared about her either, but they did care about rules,  fairness, law,  and a certain amount of class equality inside court rooms.  All those Kipling virtues that McLeod and Sooni were talking about -- I loved the way she persuaded him through that "If," poem.  The people least likely to care about the drowned woman would have probably been the high-caste Indians who would have been conditioned all their lives to think of the lower caste people as very less-than.  Better to be thought of as just some random Indian woman, than a disposable low-caste, sub-human.

[stanleyk]

I suppose you're right, but it's funny to talk about equality inside the courtroom when the show took pains to show us the physical segregation in the courtroom: English at the front, Indian in the gallery. So while it may be historically accurate for the English to care about ths woman's murder, I'm not sure if the show really thought that through, or whether instead they just needed the English to care for plot reasons and it's easier to go for the "What a racist, unfair society this is!" angle.

[Constantinople]

I never paid attention to Ramu Sood's feet, but I don't recall him wearing anything other than a suit and tie in his day-to-day life before prison and the trial.  I'm guessing he wore matching shoes and not sandals.  If I'm wrong, let me know.  If he did wear sandals with a suit and tie, it would really stick out.  Note that when Ralph is wearing sandals at the end of the episode, he's not wearing them with a suit and tie but while he's wearing some kind of native dress or what a British person might consider native dress (I say that because I have no idea how authentic Ralph's outfit was).

 

Once the prosecution had the launderer testify about the sandals, Sood's attorney should have had a number of witnesses testify that Sood always wore suits and never wore sandals when he wore a suit and tie.  It might even be worthwhile to recall Cynthia to the stand to ask her what Ramu was wearing during the altercation with Army at the Simla Fair.

[Milz]

I Googled on British trials in India and came across this except from a textbook https://books.google.com/books?id=Lm4FVb54_oUC&pg=PA19&lpg=PA19&dq=british+murder+trials+in+india+1930's&source=bl&ots=922rL7Yphe&sig=fPzrIb42Uj3mQKyoyYPszD5ivXs&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CDgQ6AEwBWoVChMI8fLM4oWWyQIVQ-9jCh2eRQSE#v=onepage&q=british%20murder%20trials%20in%20india%201930's&f=false

 

Sorry that it won't copy and paste, but paraphrasing a few bits, it said that by the 1930's  British juries were harsher on their own kind, in their eagerness not to show favoritism and it was very hard to get a murder conviction against an Indian by British juries, even with overwhelming evidence, because they were so "reluctant to send an Indian to the gallows."  

 

Now, now, we can't let historic fact interfere with historic fiction....

 

After reading that google book passage, I wonder why the defense didn't ask for a jury trial.

 

Anyhow,

 

Yes I think the reverse discrimination would have been well in play by this time, but who knows.

I don't think Ralph did it unless he's got some kind of multiple personality disorder... Which could explain the whole demon thing... Because he sincerely was crying at her corpse and he seems puzzled. Why ask if mr stood did it, if he knows.

 

 

I'm not sure if this is true of India, but in 19th-early 20th century China the term " devil" was a racist slur against Europeans and other foreigners that came into common use after the Opium Wars.  Again, I'm not sure if a similar slur was used in India.

Edited November 17, 2015 by Milz

[JudyObscure]

I really like this NY Times review http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/26/arts/television/review-in-indian-summers-british-expatriates-misbehave.html?_r=0  I hope I'm not indulging in too much linkage here but it explains some things for me.

 

According to this, Milz is right! I've been using the wrong reference books and should have been using the 1980's "White Mischief," type films as my historic sources. :)

 

I also understand Alice better after reading that review.  She's "melancholy," while I thought she was being sullen and snobbish.

 

Stanleyk is right that it's all focused on  the "What a racist, unfair society this is!" angle, so I think we're supposed to like Alice purely on the fact that her opening train ride established that she was not racist. 

[Milz]

From the NYT review "Will Aafrin, a Parsi, be able to overcome religious prejudice and be with his Hindu lover?"

 

Answer: Yes he does.

 

Next question: "Will Aafrin, a Parsi, be able to overcome racial prejudice and be with his British lover?"

[attica]

So, Sita's got to kill herself now that Affy's thrown her over, right? Isn't that how that goes? (I don't think she should, mind you.)

 

Who inherits Mr. Sood's plantation once he hangs? Is it wrong to hope Scottish Pete Campbell does?

 

I'm loving Sooni Dalal, paralawyer. She needs something productive to do.

[izabella]

So, Sita's got to kill herself now that Affy's thrown her over, right? Isn't that how that goes? (I don't think she should, mind you.)

 

I don't know what happens to Sita now.  Does she have a family?  Have they already disowned her for dating a Parsi?

 

Can she move to England?  I don't know what she would do there, but seems like it might be better than killing herself?

[magdalene]

I think there was no demand of a jury trial because the writers of this show have written the Sood character as a symbol of the oppressed of the EEEEVIL of the British Empire. If there was realism and common sense and Sood might get off and go free - he couldn't be a hanged martyr now, could he?

 

It all goes with the general heavy handedness of the show.  I have been trying to resist the unfavorable comparison with Jewel in the Crown, but they are making it hard.

[Constantinople]

I think there was no demand of a jury trial because the writers of this show have written the Sood character as a symbol of the oppressed of the EEEEVIL of the British Empire. If there was realism and common sense and Sood might get off and go free - he couldn't be a hanged martyr now, could he?

I don't even know where the jury would have sat in that courtroom. All of the room seemed to be taken-up by he place where the judge sat, the witness box, the attorneys' tables and sitting room for the people in the court room watching the trial.

Perhaps this was filmed in a court room that isn't usually used for jury trials, or perhaps it wasn't a court room at all and they just duded it up to make it look more courtly.

 

It all goes with the general heavy handedness of the show.  I have been trying to resist the unfavorable comparison with Jewel in the Crown, but they are making it hard.

Tywin Lannister > Balon Greyjoy

[proserpina65]

The magnetism of possibly murdersome Ralph can't carry this whole affair!

 

And since I don't find him at all magnetic, I'm really out of luck.  Although I do still like Aafrin's parents, so that's something.  I fully expect something awful to happen to them, because they're actually nice, decent people with engaging personalities.

Edited November 17, 2015 by proserpina65

[Milz]

And since I don't find him at all magnetic, I'm really out of luck.  Although I do still like Aafrin's parents, so that's something.  I fully expect something awful to happen to them, because they're actually nice, decent people with engaging personalities.

 

Aafrin's parents are probably the only likeable characters in the entire show. And yeah, they probably will die.

[Kitla]

I too found it hard to imagine, in part -- and here I may be engaging in unfortunate stereotypes -- because I find it hard to imagine the British would have cared who killed some random Indian woman.

That was pretty much my reaction, too. 

 

I can hardly tell you how annoying I found the way the trial was handled.  I'm a lawyer and I'm used to rolling my eyes at legal stuff on TV, but this was really beyond the pale.  Having the prosecutor argue with the witnesses and fling accusations at the defendant, instead of just asking question (even if cleverly worded questions) just made me want to scream. And the fact that the fancy British prosecutor brought in from Delhi (ridiculous in itself) referred to the case as a "high-profile murder" had me guffawing.  The death, even by violence, of an unknown untouchable woman without known family in the area would probably not have even been investigated by the police in the 1930s  And if the matter did go to trial, it would have been a jury trial, because jury trials were standard in India until the 1950's, certainly in criminal cases.  So this most certainly would have been a jury trial in real life, and more likely than not, in the 1930's the prosecutor would have been an Indian lawyer and the JUDGE would have been British. And don't even get me started on the crappy way the evidence was handled in absurd trial, as a number of others have already commented on.  Ugh..

Edited November 17, 2015 by Kitla

[Kitla]

Some random observations/questions.

 

In the first episode we saw Adam wandering around alone before he was assaulted and put on the railroad tracks by the locals.  We're later told it's because he's a "half-caste" and peasants ostracize such folks and blame them for things like crop failures (though that didn't keep them out of jobs with the Indian Railways and things like nursing ... but I digress).  This all apparently takes place pretty close to Simla, which is nowhere near (understatement) Madras and Tamil Nadu, where Adam and his mother came from (and how they, and his grandfather, managed THAT is another mystery - not a cheap or easy rail journey for a bunch of untouchable peasants), so how would the villagers know he was a "half-caste"?  There's nothing in his appearance that would suggest that.  Did his mother announce it to a bunch of strangers before leaving Adam to his own devices?  Was she hanging around in/near the village where he was assaulted and if so, why? And how did Adam's mother find out where Dougie and Leena took him after they rescued him?  Was she skulking behind them as they brought him back to the mission school?  And if so, why didn't SHE remove him from the railroad tracks?

 

Mr.  Sood's tea plantation:  there are NO tea plantations near Simla, nor were there any nearby in the 1930s.  The nearest one is in the Kangra Valley, which is HOURS away even by modern transportation.  Why did the creators of this series feel the need to make him, inaccurately, a tea planter instead of just a large landowner or some other very successful kind of Indian?  This kind of gratuitous inaccuracy bugs me to death.

 

Does anyone else think the wisteria on Ralph's South-of-France-looking mansion looks totally fake?  Was the production budget too small for more realistic looking vegetation?

 

The soapiness of the writing and the general loathsomeness of most of the characters in this series has reduced me to more or less hate-watching for the pleasure of snarking.  I will probably keep watching, however, because I apparently have a high tolerance for crap, as evidenced by the fact that I watched season after season of The Real Housewives of New Jersey.

And since I don't find him at all magnetic, I'm really out of luck.  Although I do still like Aafrin's parents, so that's something.  I fully expect something awful to happen to them, because they're actually nice, decent people with engaging personalities.

I'd watch a show about his family, with all the Britishers relegated to roles as background annoyances.

[magdalene]

I am still watching because of Ralph.  He is about the only character I don't find insipid, not making any sense whatsoever, one note eevil or an insulting stereotype or caricature.  That doesn't mean I actually like Ralph all that much. Or at all a lot of times. But I still like him better than his sister, Aafrin, the adulterous missionary and the dumbass Scot - so all of our "good" characters. That this is so tells me that the writing is just not working for me.

 

And the biggest disappointment has been Julie Walters and her character.  Cynthia  has been one note evil and boring at the same time.  She is no Ronald Merrick that's for sure. That's how you do a fascinating and compelling villain.

[Constantinople]

...the adulterous missionary

 

He's not adulterous yet.

 

As far as I know, Dougie and Leena have only kissed.

[lucindabelle]

He's not adulterous yet.

 

As far as I know, Dougie and Leena have only kissed.

Some people would consider that adulterous. In a book by Sebastian Barry (title of which I forget) a man is forced to move upstairs to the third floor for the rest of his marriage because of a drunken kiss with a colleague at a conference.

 

Pretty clear his wife thinks so.

 

Lots of women find the emotional attachment worse than sexual dalliance. I would, personally. So I get why she's upset although her vomiting, while funny, was absurd.

[magdalene]

Yes, I consider the kissing and making moon eyes at Leena plenty adulterous. Of course I wouldn't want to be married to his wife either. She is horrid.  I can understand why he is making sad googly eyes at the beautiful and graceful Leena, who also has the advantage of not being a black mailing dingbat.

[lucindabelle]

Right, for me I don't know if I'd use the word adultery but it's clearly cheating in some way...

Leena is almost unbearably beautiful.

It's pathetic that his wife is mostly sad about people not LIKING her. Jeez woman, grow up.

A shame because last week the family had a nice family moment. If she could stop wanting to fit in, she'd fit in more.

[izabella]

It's pathetic that his wife is mostly sad about people not LIKING her. Jeez woman, grow up.

 

 

If she wants to be liked, she should try being more likable.  And kind.  I don't blame her one bit for her attitude about Leena and her husband, but blackmail and gossip is not how you make friends. 

[JudyObscure]

Sarah is truly awful, but I kind of feel sorry for her, not to mention grateful to her for being an unpredictable character of some interest.  So in her defense, which came first, Sarah's insecurity or Dougie's roving eye?  She has a history of mental issues and neurotic behavior so what does her husband do?  Leaves her alone for most of the time and has an obvious, indiscreet interest in another woman. One beautiful enough to make Angelina Jolie feel inferior. 

 

My first impression of her from the opening train ride was that she was trying way too hard to make Alice her new best friend and getting snubbed.  Later, she tried forcing her company on Alice, and was over-the-moon grateful for the gift Alice gave her.  Then she  was suddenly cut off with no explanation because Ralph told Alice to drop her.  I think that in her neurotic anxiety Sarah's blackmail is just another misguided way to force closeness with Alice and make inroads with the superior lip-stick ladies by sitting high at the table.  Of course, she's wrong all along, but the people she wants to impress probably wouldn't be swayed by kindness either.  They seem to all be a bunch of mean girls who would never like anyone whose husband is a missionary.  It's too late for Sarah, they probably noticed her over-eagerness from the start, just as Alice did and that pushiness is the worst thing of all to the upper class snob. She's now untouchable and there's no place for her to go.   I have a feeling she won't live through this.

[M. Darcy]

FYI, the first episode is now available for free on ITunes.

[DHDancer]

Am I the only one wondering why they cast an actor to play Ralph who looks Anglo Indian?

[dcalley]

I looked up the judge breaking the nib of the pen. It seems to be unique to India. I mostly found people asking and theorizing why it's done, but I did find a news article that said, "Breaking the nib used to sign the order delivering death sentence has been a tradition since the days of British governance in India."

 

There is a slideshow about the clothes here. I don't know if it's new, but it was new to me. There are a few slides about Sarah. I do feel a little bit of sympathy for her; living in a different culture is hard, and she doesn't seem to believe in what her husband is doing. She got her hopes up that she would be able to associate with the elite, but her clothes, money, and husband's job mean that they won't accept her as one of their own. She doesn't fit in anywhere, and she's stuck. I wonder what life is like for her when everyone else is gone. It's probably even lonelier, so she wants to make the most of the time when others are around. But she's still awful! She actually reminds me of Cynthia in some ways.

[lucindabelle]

Am I the only one wondering why they cast an actor to play Ralph who looks Anglo Indian?

I'm hoping this is deliberate and going to lead to something interesting, like maybe his mother fooled around...

[pasdetrois]

I speculated in an earlier post that I think he's part-Indian. If that's true, I wonder if it's part of the hold the vile Cynthia has over him.

[Milz]

She got her hopes up that she would be able to associate with the elite, but her clothes, money, and husband's job mean that they won't accept her as one of their own.

 

I don't know where she got that idea because all the stuff I've read about missionaries (fiction like The African Queen and non-fiction like The Flame Trees of Thika) is 99% living and working with the native peoples, 1% hanging around the rich folk.

 

 

so how would the villagers know he was a "half-caste"?  There's nothing in his appearance that would suggest that.  Did his mother announce it to a bunch of strangers before leaving Adam to his own devices?

 

 

She probably took out an ad in the newspapers.....

 

 

The soapiness of the writing and the general loathsomeness of most of the characters in this series has reduced me to more or less hate-watching for the pleasure of snarking.  I will probably keep watching, however, because I apparently have a high tolerance for crap, as evidenced by the fact that I watched season after season of The Real Housewives of New Jersey.

 

 

This is cheesetastic, but it's less imported DOC cheese and more Cheez-Whiz.

 

 

I'd watch a show about his family, with all the Britishers relegated to roles as background annoyances.

 

YES! The Dalil family is fascinating because as Parsis they are a religious/ethnic minority. I would have loved to see the Independence movement from their perspective because from what I've read on the Net, the Parsis actually benefited from British colonialism.

[Matty]

Loving this series. Can't wait for the two hour finale this Sunday. The last few episodes leading up to it have had so many twists and turns that it's really heating up. I hope we find out Ralph's secrets on Sunday. I'm not talking about what we already know like being Adam's father or whether he was involved in the murder of Shaya but is there something else in his past he is hiding involving Alice and Cynthia. Ralph is not a straight up villain but is multi-layered and complex just like real people. That's why I find his character so intriguing,

 

It appears that young Ian McLeod is shaping up to be the hero of the piece. 

 

To those of you who think the British couldn't have treated the Indians that badly, I have news for you. Sorry, folks, that's colonialism. Read up on it. It wasn't pretty.

 

Loving it all - the acting, the scenery, the costumes, the sets, the drama! Great series!

Edited November 20, 2015 by Matty

[LaChavalina]

In the first episode we saw Adam wandering around alone before he was assaulted and put on the railroad tracks by the locals.  We're later told it's because he's a "half-caste" and peasants ostracize such folks and blame them for things like crop failures (though that didn't keep them out of jobs with the Indian Railways and things like nursing ... but I digress).  This all apparently takes place pretty close to Simla, which is nowhere near (understatement) Madras and Tamil Nadu, where Adam and his mother came from (and how they, and his grandfather, managed THAT is another mystery - not a cheap or easy rail journey for a bunch of untouchable peasants), so how would the villagers know he was a "half-caste"?  There's nothing in his appearance that would suggest that.  Did his mother announce it to a bunch of strangers before leaving Adam to his own devices?  Was she hanging around in/near the village where he was assaulted and if so, why? And how did Adam's mother find out where Dougie and Leena took him after they rescued him?  Was she skulking behind them as they brought him back to the mission school?  And if so, why didn't SHE remove him from the railroad tracks?

Adam, his mother, and the grandfather are not "untouchables." They've become outcasts because she had a child out of wedlock and because she was gang raped (or so she implied), but they were never referred to as Dalits. Based on Adam's age, it likewise may have taken them years to get to Simla.

 

It was also stated that Adam's mother thinks he is cursed or possessed, and Jaya herself has tried to harm him in the past. The implication--to me at least--was that they left open the possibility that Jaya left Adam on the railroad tracks.

[Matty]

Adam and the other children at the orphanage/mission school are half-Indian,half-English, not Dalit. Leena is also half-caste, not untouchable. There is a history of discrimination against half-caste children/people.

[lucindabelle]

I don't know about Adam's mother and grandfather, but if Adam is Ralph's child, he is certainly half-caste.

 

I know the British treated the Indians badly; I think what people are responding to is the blatant badness in this time period. It feels off.

 

It's like, racism was bad in the south in the '60s, but what made things like the church bombing shocking is that these things did NOT happen daily... things were in flux. And not the same everywhere. When civil rights movements are growing is generally not when government makes a show of being unfair.

 

I'm inclined to believe that the law courts at the time actually had a reverse discrimination. That wouldn't erase all other kinds of discrimination but I'd bet it's true.

 

That, however, would make pretty confusing television.

 

I'm another who loves the show for all its faults. It's paced well and I like the pretty and the mystery aspect keeps me engaged.

[lucindabelle]

Why do I still like Ralph? Why? He let sood swing.

Yet I actually believe he was angry about jaya.

My loathing for Cynthia knows no bounds.

Anyone else feel the snobbery at the club was preposterous? Just plain bad manners and classlessness.

[magdalene]

Cynthia is both pathetic and loathsome. Ralph is ...Ralph, any moment of decency tangled up with self-interest, calculation and compromised by it.  Yet the actor makes me believe that he loved Chaya, that he loves his sister, that he felt genuine affection for the servant he played with as a boy.  Chaya's murderer. It would have been more convenient and safer for Ralph to let the suicide happen, yet he fought to save him. He knew from the moment he saw the bracelet on the fiancees wrist, didn't he.  So he saved Chaya's murderer and protected him, and of course himself.  And Sood hung because he was a loose end and because he meant nothing to Ralph. 

 

The smartest thing Aafrin has done is to realize how dangerous Ralph is.   I don't think even Cynthia realizes this about her darling Ralphie.

 

And yes, the weakest part of the show is how the writing of the minor English characters, like the club members, is so over the top. Of course there was snobbery and racism - but not to the point of caricature. It cheapens the actual history.

 

Well, I'll continue to watch next season. I am invested enough to keep on with the show and keep on snarking about it.

[albaniantv]

Concerning the degree of bad treatment based on race and class, not sure if I understand why some think the portrayal is excessive?

 

I don't know if it is or not but a few observations. Many of the Brits in India for the long haul could not be this important or well regarded in Britain, they were second or third sons and the oldest son inherited titles and land. That meant India was the chosen proving ground for others, but they often came with a feeling of desperation, this was their last chance.

 

Same with many of the missionaries, not sure how they would have been treated in Britain but probably they would not be in charge of their own schools there or be given the chance to place their sons in a renowned boarding school.

 

Cynthia intrigued me, first time I have seen a character like this, drawing all her power from her dead husband? And haven't a clue why she has a hold over Ralph, but for some reason, treating the Indians as equals galls her beyond speech or decorum. 

 

One of the most painful scenes for me was seeing Aafrin's father show up at the club with that row of medals meaning he fought for England in WW2. In fact he mentions Gallipoli, one of WW1 battles involving the slaughter of many of Britain's brown subjects. (Also those of other colors, but still) There is this man with the most dignity of any I saw in the series and he is shunned by these ridiculous club members who can't take in the medals but only see his skin color. 

 

This series for me is well done--it's not grandstanding, just gently telling stories we all should know already, but I for one, didn't, really.

Sorry meant WW1 not WW2.

[pasdetrois]

 

The smartest thing Aafrin has done is to realize how dangerous Ralph is.   I don't think even Cynthia realizes this about her darling Ralphie.

I thought I saw a touch of madness in Ralph last night. The actor very skillfully shifted between sincere affection for his loved ones and sociopathic calculation. I wonder if he's meant to be driven slightly mad by the duality of life in India for a British citizen, especially if he's half-Indian (although they aren't developing that angle of the story, so I may have misjudged that). He secretly loved Jaya (as it was spelled on my close-captioning), appears to love Bhupi his servant, is drawn to Adam...all while striving to climb the political ladder and keep the white folks happy.

 

He certainly has confusing emotions toward other characters. We've seen the quasi-incestuous tone toward his sister, and I thought I saw homoerotic vibes in his treatment of Bhupi. He appears to be fond of Aafrin, yet would probably throw him to the wolves to save his own skin. His regard for Cynthia is really confusing. Could he be HER son? I thought for sure he was going to thrown her down the stairs and blame the alcohol. And by the way, perhaps Alice's child is from another man? (Mind veers crazily between the possibilities and all the drama)

 

I don't understand why the club members were mean to Aafrin's daddy if they unanimously voted to admit non-whites to the club. Whatever, I wanted to punch some smug faces in.

 

That poor little boy, going off to school, after bonding with his father. Very cruel system.

[Milz]

It's not that the racism is excessive, it's that it is caricatured to the point of parody, imo. A government dinner is held in order to woo ethic leaders, so naturally the British racists serve religiously forbidden foods. Really?

 

They have a big trial for the murder of an untouchable woman, with the defendant being an Indian (a successful one at that) in a powder keg political environment. Really? Rather than sweeping it under the carpet, the alternate universe Indian Summers  inhabits says "F the politics and order your Fortum and Mason hampers now! Let's have a trial to further feed the flames of political unrest!"

 

If you ever watch As Time Goes By when Lionel writes a TV movie for CBS (American) and they completely re-write it to include very caricatured stereotypes of British people and the production is so bad that you can see the Drover's Arms pub through a flap in an army tent that's supposed to be in Korea, it's reminiscent of Indian Summers

Edited November 23, 2015 by Milz

[lucindabelle]

I was reading comments on the guardian about the show and virtually every reader felt that the scene in the club was ridiculous. I thought so too. Club members voted unanimously to put down the color bar but when they arrived even the pianist stopped playing? The bartender hadn't een briefed? It was like a scene from a bad movie.

Having lived in the Deep South I think thbe Brits would be acting just like white people there did and do... OTT excessive, fake friendliness.

And hauteur without friendliness would be harder in that moment than the blatant racism. I just thought that was clumsy.

[Matty]

Loved the finale. It left us right on the edge and ready to pick up the story at the beginning of Season 2. Ralph is an interesting character study. One minute he seems almost kind to Alice, to Afrin, to the servant/boyhood friend, and then he goes off and orders the hanging of Mr. Sood, who he knows is innocent. That was such a treacherous move. Hated him for that. It must be a dream role for an actor to portray - the dichotomy of good and evil.

 

Afrin was radicalized at that moment, at the hanging of Mr. Sood, and now knows that Ralph, and the British, can't be trusted. His innocence and naivete is gone.The Sikh police officer is working for the radicals and not the British.

 

Ian McLeod proved to be the most upstanding of the British crowd in Simla in the whole sorry Sood affair. He did the right thing. It was touching when Sood's mother paid him respect by touching his feet and Sooni explained to him what she was doing.

 

The scene at the club was seething with racism. The club members did not want to vote for allowing Indian members to join the club it was forced upon them by the Viceroy and Ralph for political reasons. The women at the club's behavior was vile towards Afrin and his father. Afrin's father is a lovely man and he is so loyal to the  Brisitsh. Even the Indian bartenders wouldn't serve Afrin and his father at first because of the long standing traditions they were wtiness to. Remember the sign in front of the club "no dogs or Indians allowed". The treatment of Afrin and his father at the club was exactly the way African Americans were treated in the south after the Jim Crow laws were repealed. What was portrayed in last night's episode was neither unrealistic or over the top. Sadly,  it was all too accurate. The Indians were treated despicably by the Brisitsh during the Raj. I urge you to go and read your history.

 

I think Dougie and Lena will be very happy together at the mission school and may even raise Adam as their son. Afrin, Alice, Ralph, Cynthia, Ian, Sooni, such fascinating characters! I hope we don't have to wait too long for Season 2!

Edited November 23, 2015 by Matty