Indian Summers - General Discussion

[magdalene]

It's a matter of tone to me which varies so wildly.  The writers can do subtle and multi-layered - you see this in all scenes with Ralph - but when they want to portray the evils of racism the whole thing turns into a parody of a drama.

[Milz]

If I heard it correctly at the end of last night's episode, Season 2 will take place 3 years later.

 

My predictions....Alice left her husband because he's gay, Alice and Aafrin continue banging in the shed and have a pregnancy scare,  Ralphie will find out that Aafrin is banging Alice and will try to frame him for some heinous crime, Ralphie will try to have Adam live with them especially when Maddie can't have a baby, Sooni will de-radicalize when she and McCloud start banging boots, Sarah will show up unexpectedly armed with more dirt on everyone in Simla.

[magdalene]

And Cynthia will continue to twirl her metaphorical mustache of eevil. And yes, Sarah will return just when sad sack missionary and the lovely Leena are at their happiest.

Edited November 23, 2015 by magdalene

[proserpina65]

Well, I stuck it out to the end of season one, but I'm outta here.  No season two for me.  What I'd hoped would be a fascinating look at a period of history with which I wasn't particularly familiar turned out to be poorly written melodrama starring mostly unlikeable and uninteresting characters instead.  Now, if they ever decide to create a show follow Aafrin's parents, THAT show I would watch.  But more of this, no, just no.

[Milz]

And Cynthia will continue to twirl her metaphorical mustache of eevil. And yes, Sarah will return just when sad sack missionary and the lovely Leena are at their happiest.

 

I'm waiting for her to tie someone to a railroad track.

 

I'm willing to go one step further and say that Sarah come back with Alice's gay husband. And Pop Dalil will finally slap the face off Sooni's face.

[ComeWhatMay]

Much of the gray I see in Ralph & the feeling I have for him, I attribute to HLH. I think strong actors are able to prop the writing moreso than the other way round. I do have to say I don't find the writing to be bad & enjoyed last night's finale quite a bit.
 

Sooni could harden Ian (pardon the pun) & Ian could soften Sooni. Bring out the best in each other, shall we say. I believe I see sparks so that is one pairing I could actually believe in & root for unlike Aafrin & Alice. Alice jumping up in Ralph's arms should not pop more than all the love scenes with Aafrin & Alice, but it did to me. 

Madeleine reminds me of Charlene of Monaco no matter how infinitely & I mean infinitely more appealing I find Ralph than Albert. I hope Madeleine is able to have a child to love as I think Ralph is standing by Madeleine to make up for ditching Jaya the way he did. Not knowing Jaya was pregnant did not give him a pass & whatever Ralph may have said to Cynthia, Ralph knew it. Classic transferance when in Madeleine's case the right thing would have been to let her return to the US with Eugene's ashes. Keeping Maddie around for his career/sex/not to be alone in a literal sense since Coffin is all he thinks he has/have an heir he can claim without losing his position/to tick off Coffin off since she tried to eighty-six her are all selfish reasons & definitely mixed up in it.  

 

I'm not feeling Leena & sad sack, but I did pity sad sack last night. Having the child you love taken away from you is rough & as much as it was to save Alice, I think Ralph also did it to punish sad sack for in his mind keeping him from Adam.

 

The Club scene reminded me of the token member situations I heard of from well-heeled college classmates regarding their parents' clubs in the American South. Those stories date to the mid to the late nineties.

I will be interested to see what three years brings us.

Edited November 23, 2015 by ComeWhatMay

[skyways]

Wait what happened to Eugene? I missed the first part. I want to like Aafrin/Alice or at least care about both together but something doesn't quite ring true to me. Would someone like him, so dedicated to currying British favor, and afraid of his own shadow be that reckless to play with a female 'Britisher'?? I don't believe that.

[Matty]

Eugene died of malaria.

[lucindabelle]

Remember the sign in front of the club "no dogs or Indians allowed". The treatment of Afrin and his father at the club was exactly the way African Americans were treated in the south after the Jim Crow laws were repealed. What was portrayed in last night's episode was neither unrealistic or over the top. Sadly,  it was all too accurate. The Indians were treated despicably by the Brisitsh during the Raj. I urge you to go and read your history.

 

 

They used to have signs in the South that said no niggers, no Jews, no dogs.

And I still think last night's episode was OTT, and the reactions of the Brits who posted, the same. Would they resent Aafrin? yes. But that display of bad manners was decidedly low class and very unBritish. Frankly I thought it was clumsy, to make a point. A point they could have made much better with more nuance. This is not about the repeal of Jim Crow laws but about membership in a private club. To this day, clubs tend to be outwardly polite to their tokens. Think of the token gay people/blacks/Hispanics in the Republican party.

 

I HAVE read my history. Including the google books search someone linked to (can't remember now who) who said by this period there was reverse discrimination in the law courts and it was quite hard to get a verdict against an Indian. Which makes sense, because whatever else, the Brits weren't idiots, and fanning the flames of discontent in that moment-- idiotic. and unrealistic.

 

On my first trip to Europe in the 80s I was in a bus with a bunch of kids from Mississippi who told me how much they liked this guy who had been on the trip the year before and how "if he hadn't been black he'd have been one of our best friends." That's what racism looks like. The piano not playing, the bartender not being briefed-- that's what heavy handed TV writing looks like.

 

I called it early on that the Sikh hid the info. Glad to find I was right.

 

Usually I hate it when shows flash forward in time but it would work for me here!

Edited November 23, 2015 by lucindabelle

[Constantinople]

It seems a little unlikely that the first Indian member of the Royal Simla Club would be a clerk, even the head clerk to the Viceroy's private secretary.  I'd think the first such member would be Indian royalty or nobility or a wealthy landowner or merchant.  Too bad they railroaded Ramu Sood.

 

Speaking of, Ramu Sood had a dress shoe on his right foot when he was hanged.  I continue to assert that any half-way decent defense attorney would have argued that the prosecution's assertion that the murderer wore sandals would require a finding of not guilty on Ramu Sood's behalf.

 

I'll miss Ramu Sood.  I think it would have been more interesting if his sentence was commuted and he became politically active after being released on a technicality.  But I'm looking forward to seeing more of 00Aafrin and his handler, Sgt. Singh.

 

I won't miss Gene.  He was a boring character.  And that dance with his sister that Madeline remembered creeped me out a little.  Between that and Alice/Ralph, I'm starting to wonder about the writers.

 

I'm starting to suspect "Miss Whelan" has brain damage if she thinks Ralph can provide any help to a married white woman who has an affair with a Indian clerk.  And if "Miss Whelan's" husband is perfectly decent in his own way, whatever that means, she has no business kidnapping his son.

 

I have mixed feeling about the possibility of Sooni and Ian becoming an item.  With Aafrin-Alice, Dougie-Lena and Jaya-Ralph already established, they're at risk of overdoing the taboo/interracial romance angle.  Oddly enough, though, it seems as if Ian-Sooni have more chemistry than any of the other couples.

 

I still don't understand why Cynthia cares so much about Ralph.  Apparently she doesn't have her own children -- I don't subscribe to the theory that she's Ralph's biological mother -- so she looks upon Ralph as a son.  But why?  A little bit of background would be helpful.

 

You know Cynthia must be in the dumps when hanging an innocent Indian man doesn't cheer her up.

[lucindabelle]

That flashback with Gene was so weird I wondered if they weren't really brother and sister but lovers and partners in crime. But no, I guess just devoted siblings.

Why was Gene at the club at all? Weren't he and Madeleine both staying with Ralph at the start? I thought they were houseguests. Am I misremembering?

[izabella]

That flashback with Gene was so weird I wondered if they weren't really brother and sister but lovers and partners in crime. But no, I guess just devoted siblings.

 

I'm still not sure about that.

 

Why was Gene at the club at all? Weren't he and Madeleine both staying with Ralph at the start? I thought they were houseguests. Am I misremembering?

 

Were they at the club?  I had no idea where, but it looked like some kind of shack?   Was Madeleine staying there, too?

[dcalley]

Eugene died of malaria.

Cynthia is so evil that I actually wondered how she managed this!

 

Jaya being literate surprised me.

[albaniantv]

My recollection is that, for unfathomable reasons, the fragile Gene trusted Cynthia with the information about his family's post-crash desperate finances. One of Cynthia's many negative responses to Gene's info was to relegate him to a damp and dark suite, which, we are encouraged to assume, drastically worsened his condition.

 

While Madeleine seems to love Ralph, Ralph appears only to want her around if Cynthia is working to prevent it. Twisted, like a lot of the motivations presented, Ralph seems as tho he is evil incarnate. Until he doesn't: when his childhood friends appear to have gone the extra mile (to kill) for him, all of a sudden we are viewing Ralph as Rescuer in chief!

[Milz]

And if "Miss Whelan's" husband is perfectly decent in his own way, whatever that means, she has no business kidnapping his son.

 

 

It means he's gay and, if the writers stay true to form, he's the gayest gay man who makes Oscar Wilde  and Noel Coward look like the straightest straight men who ever lived.  And I speculate when Sarah brings him back from England, everyone will think "Dafuq's wrong with Alice that she didn't see he's gay?"

 

I have mixed feeling about the possibility of Sooni and Ian becoming an item.  With Aafrin-Alice, Dougie-Lena and Jaya-Ralph already established, they're at risk of overdoing the taboo/interracial romance angle.  Oddly enough, though, it seems as if Ian-Sooni have more chemistry than any of the other couples.

 

The lack of chemistry between Alice and Aafrin is the primary reason why their relationship is unbelievable. Even as a booty call relationship it's unbelievable.

 

They used to have signs in the South that said no niggers, no Jews, no dogs.

 

On my first trip to Europe in the 80s I was in a bus with a bunch of kids from Mississippi who told me how much they liked this guy who had been on the trip the year before and how "if he hadn't been black he'd have been one of our best friends." That's what racism looks like. The piano not playing, the bartender not being briefed-- that's what heavy handed TV writing looks like.

 

Or like when I was in New England with my college friends for a wedding. We went to the LL Bean Outlet store in Maine. We were followed around by store security because 3 women --- 1 Asian, 1 white, 1 Puerto Rican--- in their mid-20s are simply the "wrong element".

Edited November 24, 2015 by Milz

[proserpina65]

I called it early on that the Sikh hid the info. Glad to find I was right.

 

Yes, you did.  I humbly apologize for doubting you.

 

One of the few interesting things about this show has turned out to be that particular development and the reason behind it.  I wish there had been more attention to the social/political aspects of the story, and far, far, far less to the unconvincing grand passion between Aafrin and Alice.

Oddly enough, though, it seems as if Ian-Sooni have more chemistry than any of the other couples.

 

Indeed they did.

[Kiss my mutt]

I am also confused about the relationship between Ralph and Cynthia. Why are they so intertwined?

[Milz]

I am also confused about the relationship between Ralph and Cynthia. Why are they so intertwined?

 

They haven't revealed that yet. It could be Cyn is Raphie's real mommy. It could be Cyn is Miss Haversham and Ralphie is Estella. It could be Cyn is Svengali and Raphie is Trilby. It could be Cyn is Anna Madrigal and the Simla Club is 28 Barbary Lane.

[izabella]

Cyn is no Anna Madrigal!

[lucindabelle]

There was a line about her being a family friend. I doubt we're going to get more than that.

[editorgrrl]

Once it occurred to me that Ian McLeod looks just like Pete Campbell (from Mad Men), that's all I can see now. Now all I want is for him to say to Rountree "Not great, Bob!" in a Scottish accent, and my life will be complete.

Who inherits Mr. Sood's plantation once he hangs? Is it wrong to hope Scottish Pete Campbell does?

Ian McLeod will now always be "Scottish Pete Campbell" to me.

[feminaformosa]

How on earth did this boring, seemingly interminable show get a series 2 yet they cancel Bletchley Circle?

[Brattinella]

How on earth did this boring, seemingly interminable show get a series 2 yet they cancel Bletchley Circle?

I KNOW!!!  Bring back Bletchley Circle!

[sugarbaker design]

It could be Cyn is Anna Madrigal and the Simla Club is 28 Barbary Lane.

 

 

And Ralph is Mona!

[atticdrama]

Concerning the degree of bad treatment based on race and class, not sure if I understand why some think the portrayal is excessive?

 

I don't know if it is or not but a few observations. Many of the Brits in India for the long haul could not be this important or well regarded in Britain, they were second or third sons and the oldest son inherited titles and land. That meant India was the chosen proving ground for others, but they often came with a feeling of desperation, this was their last chance.

 

Same with many of the missionaries, not sure how they would have been treated in Britain but probably they would not be in charge of their own schools there or be given the chance to place their sons in a renowned boarding school.

 

Cynthia intrigued me, first time I have seen a character like this, drawing all her power from her dead husband? And haven't a clue why she has a hold over Ralph, but for some reason, treating the Indians as equals galls her beyond speech or decorum. 

 

One of the most painful scenes for me was seeing Aafrin's father show up at the club with that row of medals meaning he fought for England in WW2. In fact he mentions Gallipoli, one of WW1 battles involving the slaughter of many of Britain's brown subjects. (Also those of other colors, but still) There is this man with the most dignity of any I saw in the series and he is shunned by these ridiculous club members who can't take in the medals but only see his skin color. 

 

This series for me is well done--it's not grandstanding, just gently telling stories we all should know already, but I for one, didn't, really.

Sorry meant WW1 not WW2.

Yes, I agree. It is so disheartening to see so much ignorance, yes ignorance, regarding what colonialism was and is. It is theft. It is dominance. Look at how the Indians in this show live, and compare it with the lifestyles of even the less well-off British. My personal subtitle for this series is "Get Out of Our Damn Country," I don't think anything Indian Summers has shown has been over the top nor caricature because I've read a broad amount of history, not one cherry-picked passage in one book. In the scene, in fact, that has caused so much Sturm und Drang, Afrin and his father are initially rejected, but eventually shown drinking and playing pool with club members because one member led the way. While the leadership of the club did vote to overturn the color bar (due to political pressure, not innate liberal values) that doesn't mean the members agreed with it. 

 

Sood was executed for a murder he did not commit. What more proof of a corrupt system does anyone need? 

Edited November 30, 2015 by atticdrama

[Constantinople]

Yes, I agree. It is so disheartening to see so much ignorance, yes ignorance, regarding what colonialism was and is. It is theft. It is dominance. Look at how the Indians in this show live, and compare it with the lifestyles of even the less well-off British. My personal subtitle for this series is "Get Out of Our Damn Country," I don't think anything Indian Summers has shown has been over the top nor caricature because I've read a broad amount of history, not one cherry-picked passage in one book. In the scene, in fact, that has caused so much Sturm und Drang, Afrin and his father are initially rejected, but eventually shown drinking and playing pool with club members because one member led the way. While the leadership of the club did vote to overturn the color bar (due to political pressure, not innate liberal values) that doesn't mean the members agreed with it. 

 

Sood was executed for a murder he did not commit. What more proof of a corrupt system does anyone need?

 

The problem isn't that the system is corrupt, just that the portrayal of its corruption is hard to credit at times.

Aafrin and his father shouldn't have been treated so abysmally at the club because Aafrin should never have become the club's first Indian member. That should be someone of higher status than the Viceroy's secretary's chief clerk.

Similarly, my objection to Sood's trial and execution isn't that he was innocent, but that I'm supposed to believe the British gave a rat's ass about the drowning of some random Indian woman who was a stranger to the area.

But this is all of a piece with the show's sloppiness. Sood's attorney is allegedly not merely competent, but supposedly a highly skilled lawyer. Yet when the prosecutor argues the murderer wore the sandals found by the launderer, Sood's attorney never pointed out that Soon never wore sandals. "Miss Whelan" is continually referred to as "Miss Whelan" rather than her married name. "Miss Whelan's" story that her husband is dead, even though plenty of unhappily married upper class couples led separate lives. Ralph, the Viceroy's private secretary, is somehow on the shortlist to be the next Viceroy. As if.

[atticdrama]

 

The problem isn't that the system is corrupt, just that the portrayal of its corruption is hard to credit at times.

Aafrin and his father shouldn't have been treated so abysmally at the club because Aafrin should never have become the club's first Indian member. That should be someone of higher status than the Viceroy's secretary's chief clerk.

Similarly, my objection to Sood's trial and execution isn't that he was innocent, but that I'm supposed to believe the British gave a rat's ass about the drowning of some random Indian woman who was a stranger to the area.

But this is all of a piece with the show's sloppiness. Sood's attorney is allegedly not merely competent, but supposedly a highly skilled lawyer. Yet when the prosecutor argues the murderer wore the sandals found by the launderer, Sood's attorney never pointed out that Soon never wore sandals. "Miss Whelan" is continually referred to as "Miss Whelan" rather than her married name. "Miss Whelan's" story that her husband is dead, even though plenty of unhappily married upper class couples led separate lives. Ralph, the Viceroy's private secretary, is somehow on the shortlist to be the next Viceroy. As if.

And Sood is just there to be a tragic and doomed example of the oppressed masses.

 

a lot of the British characters are caricatures of evil or stupidity and made out to to be worse than they actually were.

 

I don't really think they cared about her either, but they did care about rules,  fairness, law,  and a certain amount of class equality inside court rooms.  All those Kipling virtues that McLeod and Sooni were talking about -- I loved the way she persuaded him through that "If," poem.  The people least likely to care about the drowned woman would have probably been the high-caste Indians

 

there was no demand of a jury trial because the writers of this show have written the Sood character as a symbol of the oppressed of the EEEEVIL of the British Empire. If there was realism and common sense and Sood might get off and go free - he couldn't be a hanged martyr now, could he?

 

It doesn't seem to me that these comments have to do with accuracy or sloppiness (Kipling "values"!?!?!) but a fundamental disbelief that British rule in India was actually all that terrible or unjust. Sood was actually quite a complex character, to characterize him as some sort of plaster saint is pretty obtuse. I get it; it makes people uncomfortable, especially if they identify in some way with the group getting called out, but really, so what? Get over yourselves. 

 

Obviously Afrin was chosen as a member because Ralph wanted it to be so. Is this historically accurate? No. Does it make sense within the narrative confines of this world? Yes. I don't give a rat's ass about the "Miss Whelan" thing and don't know why everyone is so obsessed with this minor detiail. 

[lucindabelle]

And Sood is just there to be a tragic and doomed example of the oppressed masses.

a lot of the British characters are caricatures of evil or stupidity and made out to to be worse than they actually were.

I don't really think they cared about her either, but they did care about rules, fairness, law, and a certain amount of class equality inside court rooms. All those Kipling virtues that McLeod and Sooni were talking about -- I loved the way she persuaded him through that "If," poem. The people least likely to care about the drowned woman would have probably been the high-caste Indians

there was no demand of a jury trial because the writers of this show have written the Sood character as a symbol of the oppressed of the EEEEVIL of the British Empire. If there was realism and common sense and Sood might get off and go free - he couldn't be a hanged martyr now, could he?

It doesn't seem to me that these comments have to do with accuracy or sloppiness (Kipling "values"!?!?!) but a fundamental disbelief that British rule in India was actually all that terrible or unjust. Sood was actually quite a complex character, to characterize him as some sort of plaster saint is pretty obtuse. I get it; it makes people uncomfortable, especially if they identify in some way with the group getting called out, but really, so what? Get over yourselves.

Obviously Afrin was chosen as a member because Ralph wanted it to be so. Is this historically accurate? No. Does it make sense within the narrative confines of this world? Yes. I don't give a rat's ass about the "Miss Whelan" thing and don't know why everyone is so obsessed with this minor detiail.

Get over yourselves? This is a discussion forum. You are not the only one who has read a lot nor the only one who thinks colonialism is bad. It's possible to agree with how awful colonialism was and still find the scene exaggerated and poorly written, and much sloppiness and ahistorical things written in to appeal to contemporary sensibilities.

That you don't care about her name is irrelevant. Those of us who care about dramatic integrity note it as another ahistorical and sloppy detail. It's about craft.

It appears that you believe everyone who finds the show exaggerated is uncomfortable because they are all white people being called out That's quite an assumption. I'm Jewish and just as annoyed by the ahistorical acceptance of Jewish characters on downton abbey and upstars, downairs when there would have been no freaking way. It's pc the other way. But in no way am I being called out. I would never have been allowed in that club either. I just find th scene poorly written, as if we'd all be too stupid to get it if it were done logically.

Have you read "if" ? Or even "gunga din"? Killings on the side of gunga din you know.

Dismissing his writings without addressing them doesn't strengthen your argument.

Edited December 1, 2015 by lucindabelle

[David T. Cole]

Last few posts are exhibit A for why Debate Team should still be a thing in school. Make your point about the issue at hand without resorting to ad hominem attacks and if you won't do it for civility's sake the do it because it weakens your agreement to do otherwise.

[Milz]

I view Aafrin  as the first Indian member of the Club to be a racially based insult at the Nawab and the general Indian population. Aafrin is a Parsis clerk. He isn't Rajput nobility. He isn't upper caste. He's a nobody.  Yet he's the guy. They might as well have pulled some random guy off the street.  Insulting people is really the way to win their alliance to fight the Independent India movement. Granted this is fiction, but the writers think the viewers are idiotic enough to believe the British were that stupid. Just like the writers think the viewers are idiotic enough to believe that the British would give a rat's A about random drowned Indian woman to the point that they investigate and try it in court. It is more believable if one of the good time gals at the club was drowned and Sood framed for it.

 

The other racist stereotyped character is Cynthia's henchman. I don't know if the writers intentionally wrote the character to be racist stereotype, but they did. He's an Uncle Tom:staunchly devoted and loyal to Cynthia. Quite frankly , Aafrin is an Uncle Tom too, and he's a protagonist!

[atticdrama]

.

Have you read "if" ? Or even "gunga din"? Killings on the side of gunga din you know.

Dismissing his writings without addressing them doesn't strengthen your argument.

Re Kipling, I'll let the man speak for himself:

 

Take up the White Man’s burden—

Send forth the best ye breed—

Go send your sons to exile

To serve your captives' need

To wait in heavy harness

On fluttered folk and wild—

Your new-caught, sullen peoples,

Half devil and half child

Take up the White Man’s burden

In patience to abide

To veil the threat of terror

And check the show of pride;

By open speech and simple

An hundred times made plain

To seek another’s profit

And work another’s gain

 

And etc. 

[Milz]

Re Kipling, I'll let the man speak for himself:

 

Take up the White Man’s burden—

Send forth the best ye breed—

Go send your sons to exile

To serve your captives' need

To wait in heavy harness

On fluttered folk and wild—

Your new-caught, sullen peoples,

Half devil and half child

Take up the White Man’s burden

In patience to abide

To veil the threat of terror

And check the show of pride;

By open speech and simple

An hundred times made plain

To seek another’s profit

And work another’s gain

 

And etc. 

 

White Man's Burden mocks imperialism and specifically US imperialism in the Philippines. The mockery is in the words: "send your sons to exile to serve your captive's need". Why exile your sons whom Kipling described as "the best of the breed"? What's the purpose to exile them to be servile?  If these best of the breed are truly superior to these captives, they wouldn't be the served not the servers. Note the word "captive" to describe the native peoples. Kipling acknowledges they are not under the US by choice, not a very pretty way to describe the Filipinos or any people under similar circumstances.

 

Moreover it's these best of the breed sons who "wait in heavy harness" on the Filipinos. So why is Kipling equating these sons to animals wearing harnesses.  Animals wear harnesses to do work, surely not the "best of the breed".

 

Also later in the poem Kipling states the "reward" of taking up the White Man's Burden is "The blame of those ye better. The hate of those ye guard—"  How is it a "reward" to be blamed and hated, especially to be hated by the people who you serve?

 

And in the final part of the poem, Kipling has this cynical nugget "Take up the White Man’s burden-Have done with childish days-The lightly proffered laurel. The easy, ungrudged praise comes now, to search your manhood through all the thankless years, cold-edged with dear-bought wisdom, the judgment of your peers!"

 

I realize that White Man's Burden has been used by some as the reason why white people have a moral and ethical right to lord over or to "civilize"  non-whites. But have they really read and analyzed the poem?  I think not. But that's the great thing about well-written poetry: it's open to interpretation.

Edited December 1, 2015 by Milz

[magdalene]

Oh, people hear the name Kipling and they will have already jumped to certain conclusions.

[editorgrrl]

"Indian Summers: Looking Ahead to Season 2" http://video.pbs.org/video/2365615400/

The cast and creators explore what's ahead for Indian Summers, and the "year of reckoning" coming in Season 2. Indian Summers, Season 2, will air in 2016 on MASTERPIECE on PBS. #IndianSummersPBS

The four "core characters" are Ralph, Alice, Cynthia, and Aafrin. The latter has been on the "biggest journey" between seasons 1 & 2: "He's a man now."

Edited December 2, 2015 by editorgrrl

[Constantinople]

Oh, people hear the name Kipling and they will have already jumped to certain conclusions.

 

That reminds me of the old postcard:

 

Do you like Kipling?

I don't know, you naughty boy, I've never kippled!

[magdalene]

"Indian Summers: Looking Ahead to Season 2" http://video.pbs.org/video/2365615400/

The four "core characters" are Ralph, Alice, Cynthia, and Aafrin. The latter has been on the "biggest journey" between seasons 1 & 2: "He's a man now."

Thank you for linking to this video! I never seem to find these things and it was fun to get teased about the second season and to get a glimpse of the main actors out of character.

[atticdrama]

 

I realize that White Man's Burden has been used by some as the reason why white people have a moral and ethical right to lord over or to "civilize"  non-whites. But have they really read and analyzed the poem?  I think not. But that's the great thing about well-written poetry: it's open to interpretation.

Kipling wrote the poem overtly to support the US's imperialist efforts in the Philippines, at a time when the US was becoming a global power. This is a matter of historical record, not open to interpretation. 

[magdalene]

Kipling wrote the poem overtly to support the US's imperialist efforts in the Philippines, at a time when the US was becoming a global power. This is a matter of historical record, not open to interpretation. 

I have found that most things in life are open to interpretation - and this poem certainly is in my opinion.

Edited December 2, 2015 by magdalene

[proserpina65]

"Indian Summers: Looking Ahead to Season 2" http://video.pbs.org/video/2365615400/

The four "core characters" are Ralph, Alice, Cynthia, and Aafrin. The latter has been on the "biggest journey" between seasons 1 & 2: "He's a man now."

This just solidifies my disinterest in watching season 2.

[attica]

Is it wrong that I've been wondering for weeks if the Beeb or PBS got underwriting for this show from the makers of this?

(That's rhetorical. I know it's wrong.) 

[atticdrama]

I have found that most things in life are open to interpretation - and this poem certainly is in my opinion.

One could interpret "White Man's Burden" as a love poem, an ode on a Grecian urn, or as critical of imperialism, but this would not be supported by historical fact, the text of the poem or critical consensus. 

[Milz]

The four "core characters" are Ralph, Alice, Cynthia, and Aafrin. The latter has been on the "biggest journey" between seasons 1 & 2: "He's a man now."

 

Figuratively or literally?

 

Kipling wrote the poem overtly to support the US's imperialist efforts in the Philippines, at a time when the US was becoming a global power. This is a matter of historical record, not open to interpretation. 

 

So  Kipling's negative imagery about America's "duties" to the Filipinos overtly supports the US occupation of the Philippines?  And when Kipling writes that the US's reward in this will be "blame of those ye better, the hate of those ye guard", he's really saying "USA all the way, whip those Filipinos into shape". Historical records, like poetry, needs to be read and analyzed to be understood beyond the superficial.

[editorgrrl]

Indian Summers' writer/creator Paul Rutman gave a background lesson on the political and social history necessary to understand the show: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/masterpiece/programs/features/history/indian-summers-s1-7-historical-essentials/

I think the Brits became obsessed, obsessed with class, to a degree that was surprising to the English people who came out. Simla was a world slightly held in aspic—they're surprised and struck by how arcane and antique this world is; it doesn't reflect Britain in 1935.

According to the New York Times http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/26/arts/television/review-in-indian-summers-british-expatriates-misbehave.html

The show’s creator and primary writer, Paul Rutman, has mainly worked in British mysteries (“Vera,” “Inspector Lewis”).

“Indian Summers” lacks the thing that makes “Downton [Abbey]” irresistible despite its sometimes irritatingly muddled storytelling: Julian Fellowes’s ability to create an endless roster of distinctive, quirky characters (and the show’s ability to find actors to match them). Mr. Rutman’s people are more off-the-shelf, but he keeps them moving and orchestrates their predictable perils and heartbreaks with some panache.

Edited December 2, 2015 by editorgrrl

[atticdrama]

Figuratively or literally?

 

 

So  Kipling's negative imagery about America's "duties" to the Filipinos overtly supports the US occupation of the Philippines?  And when Kipling writes that the US's reward in this will be "blame of those ye better, the hate of those ye guard", he's really saying "USA all the way, whip those Filipinos into shape". Historical records, like poetry, needs to be read and analyzed to be understood beyond the superficial.

It is instructive to read Kipling's own words. He wrote to Cameron Forbes, the US governor of the Phillipines from 1909 to 1913: "My fear (not that it's any of my business but we're all white men together) is that some fool Democratic spasm may land your people with a full-blooded modern constitution…. May Allah preserve your land [the Philippines] from this fate and enable you to continue your works in peace." His letters are are full of such items. 

[proserpina65]

Indian Summers' writer/creator Paul Rutman gave a background lesson on the political and social history necessary to understand the show: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/masterpiece/programs/features/history/indian-summers-s1-7-historical-essentials/

According to the New York Times http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/26/arts/television/review-in-indian-summers-british-expatriates-misbehave.html

If the writing had been up to snuff, no background lesson would've been necessary.  I didn't know much about WW2/post-war India before watching The Jewel in the Crown, but I understood that series perfectly because it was bloody well-written.

[dcalley]

Is it wrong that I've been wondering for weeks if the Beeb or PBS got underwriting for this show from the makers of this?

(That's rhetorical. I know it's wrong.) 

Long-term use is only going to make things worse, Miss Alice. (I think it's Channel Four.)

[attica]

(I think it's Channel Four.)

Gasp! It is! Thank you for correcting me! (Maybe it's all the nose-spray, clouding my mind...)

[Milz]

Hey, all, let's take the discussion of Rudyard Kipling, etc., to the Small Talk thread, unless it directly relates to the show.  It's interesting, but I think it's veering a little off-topic.

 

Also, remember to please disagree without being disagreeable.  :)

 

 My apologies for the foray into the OT.

 

Anyhow,  since Alice and Aafrin have zero chemistry together, and Cynthia is so stereotypically evil, that leaves Ralph to carry the drama. And it's not believable that an untitled, under-secretary/assistant./whatever Ralph is can even aspire to  become Viceroy especially in this world that is "obsessed, obsessed with class".

[Constantinople]

Anyhow,  since Alice and Aafrin have zero chemistry together, and Cynthia is so stereotypically evil, that leaves Ralph to carry the drama.

Aafrin isn't just Alice's sex object. He's also a spy for Sgt. Singh.

[Milz]

Aafrin isn't just Alice's sex object. He's also a spy for Sgt. Singh.

 

Zero chemistry is zero chemistry.