Caitlyn Jenner: Call Me Caitlyn

[millennium]

It's probably not Politically Correct to point this out!

 

You rebel!  Heh.

 

Although I'm not sure I agree with the earlier part of the post (the part about why Jenner may or may not bother to feminize her voice).  I honestly don't know what's in her mind on this subject and wouldn't want to venture a guess.   But the fact that this particular 65-year old woman is getting plenty of "special treatment" way beyond what any other 65 year old woman gets?  Yup.  That's kinda messed up in a way.

 

And if you keep going, it takes on still another level of hideousness: The only 65-year-old woman who gets special treatment is the one who was born a man, and only because that one-time man did his damnedest to NOT look like a typical 65-year-old woman but instead one much younger.    

 

The most-often repeated advice for transgender women on how to pass is to dress and appear appropriate to your age.  But again, passing is none of Jenner's concern.   Jenner's acceptance as a woman was purchased with his wealth, like a Lamborghini.   So Jenner can go about in junior department miniskirts, makeup and hairstyles that look absurd once you get a close-up look at the 65-year-old face wearing them, as was evident in the speech appearance.   No photoshopping there.  No Annie Liebowitz.   And as time goes forward, it's not going to get any better.   In a recent editorial, Ellen Goodman called Jenner out on this.  She wrote something like, "Caitlyn, now that you're one of the girls, don't you want to be one of the women?"

 

Obviously this is just my opinion, but Jenner's "journey" seems to be one big crossdressing fantasy trip rather than a determined effort to become a woman.

[jonesingjay]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=112W8q8XXKw

 

Really great speech. I thought the emotion was genuine, and she clearly had a message she wanted to get across. Hopefully people were open to receiving it. 

Edited July 17, 2015 by jonesingjay

[millennium]

It read like a planned, targeted strategy intended to deflect and diminish critics.   The tears seemed like an accessory, like "look, everybody, I'm crying because this is what women do."    One wonders if Jenner ever shed a tear for the childhoods he ruined, or for Kim Howe.

Edited July 17, 2015 by millennium

[jonesingjay]

I enjoyed the speech. She used this opportunity to get across a message that means a great deal to her, and hopefully the people who needed to hear it received that message. 

Edited July 17, 2015 by jonesingjay

[millennium]

I'm sure it will play very dramatically in the reality TV series.

[mmk1987]

Maybe she doesn't care about changing her voice? Who cares if her voice still sounds like a mans anyways. Not like Bruce had the deepest voice and plenty of women have a little bit deeper voices.

I thought the speech wasn't bad. The beginning was meh with the whole getting ready stuff but the rest wasn't bad.

Caitlyn obviously isn't a saint but she also isn't some monster.

[jonesingjay]

Maybe she doesn't care about changing her voice? Who cares if her voice still sounds like a mans anyways. Not like Bruce had the deepest voice and plenty of women have a little bit deeper voices.

I thought the speech wasn't bad. The beginning was meh with the whole getting ready stuff but the rest wasn't bad.

Caitlyn obviously isn't a saint but she also isn't some monster.

 

The getting ready stuff was hacky. When she really got down to what she wanted to say I really liked it. 

 

I also like that she doesn't feel the need to change her voice. If that's how she wants to talk, that's how she wants to talk. 

I'm sure it will play very dramatically in the reality TV series.

 

I can't wait for the reality series. It'll be great. Premiering July the 26th on E! Don't forget to tune in. 

 

Looking forward to all of the great gifs that'll come out of that show.

 

Edited July 17, 2015 by jonesingjay

[Kromm]

It read like a planned, targeted strategy intended to deflect and diminish critics.   The tears seemed like an accessory, like "look, everybody, I'm crying because this is what women do."    One wonders if Jenner ever shed a tear for the childhoods he ruined, or for Kim Howe.

I can't say I know for sure if that's the case, millennium. That said, one big red flag for me is the "before a few weeks ago I'd never met a trans person".  It just seems... odd... when the initial markers for the transition (the hair, some of the body shaping) happened like a year ago.  This just pushes my skeptic button that someone would even START the process without meeting and extensively discussing things with other people in the same situation.

 

So that part sounds like spin/manipulation, because it just sounds like a rationale for being heralded as a hero of the movement without a visible previous history. Again, nobody is saying you need such a history to transition--quite the contrary in fact. So if there's spin it's more to justify the PUBLIC aspect of it rather than the private part.

 

It was very savvy to name the prominent public trans people who have been in the spotlight before.  As was the stuff about "it's not just about me but all of us". Then again the whole speech was savvy, whether you believe it to be sincere or opportunistic. The truth I think lies somewhere in the middle. Jenner is very competitive. She EXPECTS to be a leader at whatever she does in her life. So the words seem to me like they could be completely sincere AND manipulative at the same time. Sincerity is a good base to use to persuade people. The manipulative aspect is simply the subtlety in setting herself up as the humble champion, the one who names all the others but gets the award, the interviews and the reality show now.  The stuff at the end about her family? I suppose that's true enough. Without this family Bruce (not Caitlyn) would have been just anther long past-his-prime washed up Olympian nobody had heard of for years. So even in the most cynical interpretation, you BET Caitlyn is happy to have that family.

[millennium]

The getting ready stuff was hacky. When she really got down to what she wanted to say I really liked it. 

 

I also like that she doesn't feel the need to change her voice. If that's how she wants to talk, that's how she wants to talk. 

 

I can't wait for the reality series. It'll be great. Premiering July the 26th on E! Don't forget to tune in. 

 

Looking forward to all of the great gifs that'll come out of that show.

 

 

This just makes me think of that asshole plowing into Kim Howe's car.   Preoccupied, self-absorbed, egomaniac.

Edited July 17, 2015 by millennium

[millennium]

Speaking of which:

 

Caitlyn Jenner blasted by driver involved in fatal car crash: ‘Do the right thing and take responsibility’

BY KIRTHANA RAMISETTI    NEW YORK DAILY NEWS Thursday, July 16, 2015, 3:09 PM

 

Caitlyn Jenner delivered a powerful speech while accepting the Arthur Ashe Courage Award at the 2015 ESPYs — but not everyone was a fan.

 

 

Jessica Steindorff, the driver of the Prius involved in Jenner’s fatal car crash earlier this year, expressed her outrage towards the star in a statement to Entertainment Tonight on Wednesday.

 

The 29-year-old talent manager, who attended the ESPYs as a guest, said that she wants Jenner to “do the right thing and take responsibility for her actions.”

 

Jenner — who had yet to publicly transition from Bruce to Caitlyn at the time of the accident — was involved in the February car crash on Malibu’s Pacific Coast Highway that resulted in the death of 69-year-old Kim Howe.

 

 

Steindorff expressed her anger that Jenner’s gender transition has garnered more press than the fatal collision.

 

“I find it difficult to understand how the culture we live in can honor a person who is responsible for taking a life and injuring several others with both an award and a reality show,” she said.

 

 

“I would hope that someone who seems to greatly value the importance of human existence would be more sensitive to the fact that she ended another person’s life.”

 

Howe died when Jenner’s black Cadillac Escalade smashed into the back of her Lexus. Steindorff’s Prius was also rear-ended by Jenner’s vehicle after striking Howe’s.

 

 

Howe's stepchildren filed a wrongful death lawsuit against Jenner in May, claiming Jenner was “careless, reckless and negligent.” Steindorff also filed a personal injury lawsuit against the former Olympian last month.

 

The reality star will not face felony charges for her involvement in the accident, according to TMZ.

 

http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/gossip/caitlyn-jenner-blasted-driver-involved-fatal-car-crash-article-1.2294644

 

[Maysie]

Well, I'm not going to pile it on Caitlyn about her voice. Granted, I never watched the Kardashian shows so I don't know how Bruce's voice was, but in the little bit of the Sawyer interview I saw, her voice seemed like she was trying to be softer. But I have nothing to compare it to. I'm also not going to fault her for spending the $$$ she has to roll out as a woman because the fact is, she's a rich, privileged person who had the resources to do it, so of course she'd do it. I don't know anyone who wouldn't in her position. I'm not crazy about Caitlyn, nor was I crazy about Bruce the more I heard about him, but it has nothing to do with the transgenderism; they are simply people who aren't my cup of tea.

 

But, millennium, I wholeheartedly agree with what you said about any other 65 year old woman and Vanity Fair/society's reaction. Hell, it seems that after 40 women begin to fade away, and by the time you reach your 50s you're basically invisible. ("Grace and Frankie" did a nice little scene about this, by the way) And part of what bothers me is that everyone's talking about how fabulous Caitlyn looks -- and she does, given less than a year ago she was a 64 year old man. I understand the initial focus on her appearance because the change is staggering, however I am so tired of our culture of eternal youth and superficial looks. We get it. Caitlyn looks great. I wish the conversation would begin to focus on other aspects of the transition, the ones that truly matter, which is what I think "Transparent" does so very well.

 

I suppose if there's any downside for the transgender community in all of this is that Caitlyn's coverage has been focused so much on how she looks, what she's wearing, etc. I can see where it would lead to the impression that transgenderism is playing dress up -- and that is not what this is about. However, I think/hope that once things start to die down, probably about after the first season of her show airs, that there won't be so much focus on how Caitlyn looks and instead it is more about how she's finding/living life as a woman.

[iwasish]

Maybe she doesn't care about changing her voice? Who cares if her voice still sounds like a mans anyways. Not like Bruce had the deepest voice and plenty of women have a little bit deeper voices.

I thought the speech wasn't bad. The beginning was meh with the whole getting ready stuff but the rest wasn't bad.

Caitlyn obviously isn't a saint but she also isn't some monster.

I never thought Bruce had a very masculine voice, it was kind of high pitched at times. I loved when Brody and Brandon would imitate him. They actually have very similar sounding voices as Bruce had. I find Caitlyn to have a more affected type of speech, Could be she's had some lip work or dental work, it seemed  like a bit of a lisp. I do find her persona to be a sort stereotype of a woman in a kind of exaggerated way. For someone who claims to have dressed and been out in public as a woman, she seemed quite unsteady and a bit ungainly. Maybe it was just nerves.  

[iwasish]

Well, I'm not going to pile it on Caitlyn about her voice. Granted, I never watched the Kardashian shows so I don't know how Bruce's voice was, but in the little bit of the Sawyer interview I saw, her voice seemed like she was trying to be softer. But I have nothing to compare it to. I'm also not going to fault her for spending the $$$ she has to roll out as a woman because the fact is, she's a rich, privileged person who had the resources to do it, so of course she'd do it. I don't know anyone who wouldn't in her position. I'm not crazy about Caitlyn, nor was I crazy about Bruce the more I heard about him, but it has nothing to do with the transgenderism; they are simply people who aren't my cup of tea.

 

But, millennium, I wholeheartedly agree with what you said about any other 65 year old woman and Vanity Fair/society's reaction. Hell, it seems that after 40 women begin to fade away, and by the time you reach your 50s you're basically invisible. ("Grace and Frankie" did a nice little scene about this, by the way) And part of what bothers me is that everyone's talking about how fabulous Caitlyn looks -- and she does, given less than a year ago she was a 64 year old man. I understand the initial focus on her appearance because the change is staggering, however I am so tired of our culture of eternal youth and superficial looks. We get it. Caitlyn looks great. I wish the conversation would begin to focus on other aspects of the transition, the ones that truly matter, which is what I think "Transparent" does so very well.

 

I suppose if there's any downside for the transgender community in all of this is that Caitlyn's coverage has been focused so much on how she looks, what she's wearing, etc. I can see where it would lead to the impression that transgenderism is playing dress up -- and that is not what this is about. However, I think/hope that once things start to die down, probably about after the first season of her show airs, that there won't be so much focus on how Caitlyn looks and instead it is more about how she's finding/living life as a woman.

I find myself wondering if the reactions to Caitlyn would be different if she lumbered on stage looking like Kris Humphries in an evening gown?  

[HumblePi]

I never doubted the genuineness and sincerity and desire of Bruce Jenner to transition to being a female Caitlyn after 65 years of living as a man. What I doubt is the sincerity of Caitlyn to want to 'help and motivate those who are struggling with the desire to transition'. To that I say bullcrap. Yes, Caitlyn may have thrown that altruistic wish into the mix of her own self-serving desires but that in no way has anything to do with her physical transformation into a female.

Bruce Jenner went through three wives and raised ten children. During all those years, didn't she consider even once that this was very selfish on his part, that she would ultimately hurt those people in her life more than anyone else? It kills me to say this, but I even had sympathy for Kris Jenner who had to live with her lie all those years. Bruce was selfish all her life. Did she have to marry? Did she have to spawn all those children? Was she too religious to practice birth control? 'No' to all the above. Caitlyn isn't a role model to those people who wish to transition. Caitlyn is a very wealthy person who had the ways and means to pour buckets of money into jaw sculpting, brow lifting. eye lifts, numerous nose jobs, lip and breast augmentation, hormone therapy replacement, psychologists, psychiatrists, counseling sessions. The list goes on and on and the money was there to pay for all that without a second thought.

So if Caitlyn believes that some will be 'inspired and motivated' by her transition, then she should also support those decisions financially and create an organization that raises money for that cause. In other words, put your money where your mouth is and really help people to transition.

[Artsda]

I think the selfish vs unselfish works 2 ways. She didn't have to marry all those times or have all those children. However, having children I don't think is the issue, LGBT community people want and have children. Bruce wanted kids and was a great father to the 6, The selfish thing was what Bruce did to her 3 wives and older 4 kids, leaving the kids, marrying women on the premise it would be a male-female marriage then disclosing this secret to them and expect them to be ok/live with it.

Unselfishly Bruce waited until all the kids (mainly considering Kendall&Kylie) were adult and going into their own lives before transitioning into Caitlyn.

[JocelynCavanaugh]

I think the selfish vs unselfish works 2 ways. She didn't have to marry all those times or have all those children. However, having children I don't think is the issue, LGBT community people want and have children. Bruce wanted kids and was a great father to the 6, The selfish thing was what Bruce did to her 3 wives and older 4 kids, leaving the kids, marrying women on the premise it would be a male-female marriage then disclosing this secret to them and expect them to be ok/live with it.

Unselfishly Bruce waited until all the kids (mainly considering Kendall&Kylie) were adult and going into their own lives before transitioning into Caitlyn.

While I somewhat agree with this, I think it's important to note that Kylie is still 17 and seems very lost and on the verge of some terrible choices.

[iwasish]

While I somewhat agree with this, I think it's important to note that Kylie is still 17 and seems very lost and on the verge of some terrible choices.

I agree, 17 is a vulnerable age. I do think the divorce, all the negative publicity she brings on herself with the selfies and the stank attitude, the  new boyfriend, mommy dating  and Bruce deciding to go the "all about me now" path in life and his revelation of his decision to transition to a woman, is a lot to handle. I think she will struggle for a long time. I think Kendall does also, but has her career as an escape. In that regard I do think it selfish of Bruce.

[OnceSane]

Reminder: Snarking on the show and its participants is fine, snarking on each other is not. Nor is telling people how to post. I deleted several posts violating these rules.

[HumblePi]

It read like a planned, targeted strategy intended to deflect and diminish critics. The tears seemed like an accessory, like "look, everybody, I'm crying because this is what women do." One wonders if Jenner ever shed a tear for the childhoods she ruined, or for Kim Howe.

I liked this post so much that it bears repeating over and over again. We shouldn't forget that Bruce Jenner was a motivational speaker for years and made lots of money doing it too. Money earned through her 'inspiring motivational speaking' probably helped defer the exorbitant small fortune spent on changing her appearance. If 'Jenner' truly wishes to help others on their quest for transitioning into the opposite sex, then she should establish a foundation that provides financial assistance to those people who aren't millionaires and can't afford the medical costs. Incidentally (or not) the Bruce to Caitlyn transformation is reported to have cost this multi-millionaire $4 milion dollars, which sounds pretty high but the figure includes her expensive wardrobe of designer gowns, dresses and lounge wear. But Caitlyn will most certainly recoup some of her expenses through her own TV 'reality' series, lectures, speeches, appearances, books and magazine covers. Who knows, there may even be a line of Caitlyn designer clothes in the future.

[HumblePi]

Speaking of which:

The reality star will not face felony charges for her involvement in the accident, according to TMZ.

http://www.nydailyne...ticle-1.2294644

It just goes to show what money, fame and popularity within pop culture can do for someone. The public is eager to see a rich, famous celebrity transition sexually but they dismiss the fact that because of her fame, she wasn't made culpable for vehicular homicide.

[OnceSane]

Please use the pronouns "she" or "her" rather than "he" or "him" when discussing Caitlyn. Thanks.

[Kromm]

Please use the pronouns "she" or "her" rather than "he" or "him" when discussing Caitlyn. Thanks.

For my personal navigation of this, I know that when I've specifically been talking about a past event visibly and publicly performed by Bruce (the male identity), and am using a past tense overall to describe it, I've used "him" or "he" for that sentence. But for the actions (or articles about, or quotes by, Caitlyn) in the present/near past I've referred to "Caitlyn" or occasionally just a last name, but used "her" or "she".

 

Late May/Early June seems to be around the time Caitlyn herself asked people to change the identifier, so that's the rule of thumb I've been using.

 

But if this kind of divide is a problem, in the future here I'll just refer to both past and present consistently.

[parisprincess]

She EXPECTS to be a leader at whatever she does in her life.

 

Well, she wasn't that great of a dad.  She basically ignored her four oldest kids for years, and allowed Pimpmama to set the rules for the youngest two (which were no rules at all).  Maybe if she would have stepped up and reigned Kylie in, rather than let her run amok, the kid wouldn't be on the road to being an uneducated famewhore, following in Kim's footsteps.  When and if she has the reassignment surgery, they won't have to cut off her balls because they've been in Kris' purse for years. 

[jonesingjay]

Caitlyn being honored in full before her speech, not in the video I previously posted. It really adds to her speech for me. The narrator for the video montage is Jon Hamm. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QB7AEdBU3sk

 

You go Glenn Coco!

Edited July 18, 2015 by jonesingjay

[millennium]

The narrator for the video montage is Jon Hamm. 

 

 

He's really made a new niche for himself in commercials.

[jonesingjay]

I think I've heard him do one for luxury cars. Perhaps, Cadillac. Don Draper is enlightened, after he came back from that retreat he changed for the better. 

[Artsda]

While I somewhat agree with this, I think it's important to note that Kylie is still 17 and seems very lost and on the verge of some terrible choices.

While she's still a teenager, she's an adult who is a homeowner and wouldn't be living with daddy or mommy. She'd got a job/career and is a millionaire at her age. Bruce didn't need to raise her anymore, Kylie may even be better of with Caitlyn and seeing all LGBT community have to go through.

[Cosmic Muffin]

Kylie needed Bruce for the last few years, and he (she?) wasn't there. That family failed Kylie. Khloe might do what she can, I think she now regrets being sexual with older men when she was young, but with Kris pushing Kylie in the most unhealthy directions, this girl really needed her dad, and still needs Caitlyn, although it might be too late. Kim should be no one's role model.

[evilmindatwork]

Ugh. I am 28 and I still need parental advice and guidance. I can't imagine being that adrift at 17.

[Crucial]

While she's still a teenager, she's an adult who is a homeowner and wouldn't be living with daddy or mommy. She'd got a job/career and is a millionaire at her age. Bruce didn't need to raise her anymore, Kylie may even be better of with Caitlyn and seeing all LGBT community have to go through.

I'm sorry but this post breaks my heart because Kylie is not an adult no matter how many times she plays "dress up" she's a child who needs guidance on so many things.  Honestly what job does she have?  Being on a reality show?  Kendall has a job modeling.  Kylie does things that are attached to Kendall.  She may have lots of money but the girl is underage and in need of parenting. She should be living with a mom or dad that care but neither Caitlyn nor Kris care.  Both parents are so self absorbed they don't think about 'that' kind of stuff.

 

And if I am being totally honest, I think Kylie and the transgender community are in the same boat.  Neither are going to get any attention they so need from Caitlyn it's heartbreaking.

Kylie needed Bruce for the last few years, and he (she?) wasn't there. That family failed Kylie. Khloe might do what she can, I think she now regrets being sexual with older men when she was young, but with Kris pushing Kylie in the most unhealthy directions, this girl really needed her dad, and still needs Caitlyn, although it might be too late. Kim should be no one's role model.

 

 

Khloe is the only one with the maternal instincts for her family.  At least what I see.

[Kromm]

While she's still a teenager, she's an adult who is a homeowner and wouldn't be living with daddy or mommy. She'd got a job/career and is a millionaire at her age. 

Someone isn't an adult simply because they have the material aspects of being an adult.

[Artsda]

 

I'm sorry but this post breaks my heart because Kylie is not an adult no matter how many times she plays "dress up" she's a child who needs guidance on so many things.  Honestly what job does she have?  Being on a reality show?  Kendall has a job modeling.  Kylie does things that are attached to Kendall.  She may have lots of money but the girl is underage and in need of parenting. She should be living with a mom or dad

Kylie's going off to college age. Saying because of her age she needs to be living at home, says that every 18 year old  ( in 3 weeks) needs to stay home and not go off to live on their own. She bought a home that she has to deal with bills, cleaning, management of, remodel is a lot of responsibility that she's doing. 

 

The reality show is a job that pays her, she's also had her PacSun deal for years, she also has a deal with Nip+Fab,, she has her new hair care/color/clipons line. That's a lot than other 17 year olds. 

 

She and Kendall have had to work and live as adults more so than being just kids. 

[millennium]

 

And if I am being totally honest, I think Kylie and the transgender community are in the same boat.  Neither are going to get any attention they so need from Caitlyn it's heartbreaking.

 

In my opinion, the transgender community never needed Jenner, and still doesn't.   Advances were being made, slowly but surely.   Jenner spotted an opportunity, a vulnerability to exploit, and like a corporate raider took it by force and appointed the person in the mirror CEO.  I'm surprised the word "transgender" wasn't trademarked in the process.  Now Jenner wallows in self-congratulatory delusions of importance claiming that all of this will inspire and motivate others, and "change the world" and the more this is repeated the more inflated Jenner's ego becomes, even as the transgender people who find themselves more discouraged than ever by Jennerpalooza carry on in silence and anonymity.  

 

Quite a feat, actually, to have lived a life of zero interaction with the transgender community and then appoint oneself its messiah simply because you have the money to do so.

Edited July 18, 2015 by millennium

[Crucial]

Artsda we agree to disagree.  Kylie isn't an adult in my eyes because she has a home (can one buy a home at 17 on their own?).  She's not 18 yet. Who says 18 is really an adult.

 

She paid for the items she wants that every kid pays for but the basic necessities were provided by parents.  I wanted something like nails at 16 I bought them.

That child doesn't deal with bills, mortgages, or anything of the like.  Kris has someone taking care of all that stuff.

[Kromm]

 

She and Kendall have had to work and live as adults more so than being just kids.

 

Kids going off to college are weaned off their home life.  That's not the same as being thrust into multi-million dollar deals, managing your own finance and career, building your own circle of trusted people who could steal from you or ruin your career if you pick wrong, having to deal with drugs, sexual perverts and other exploitative people who hang around models and celebs, having a "Momager" who maybe IS around for some of this, but who may not always have your best interests in mind as much as her own, etc.

 

Maybe the reality is that they have to live as adults, but that doesn't automatically make them fully CAPABLE of doing so.  They might be. But it's hard to blame the people here who are skeptical, because what they're facing is hardly "typical".  What they're facing could thrust people into adulthood through a pressure cooker, sure, but it could also break teenagers.  Simply looking at their situation and concluding that since they ACT like adults, they ARE adults is neither inherently accurate, nor fair.

[Kromm]

In my opinion, the transgender community never needed Jenner, and still doesn't.   Advances were being made, slowly but surely.   Jenner spotted an opportunity, a vulnerability to exploit, and like a corporate raider took it by force and appointed the person in the mirror CEO.  I'm surprised the word "transgender" wasn't trademarked in the process.  Now Jenner wallows in self-congratulatory delusions of importance claiming that all of this will inspire and motivate others, and "change the world" and the more this is repeated the more inflated Jenner's ego becomes, even as the transgender people who find themselves more discouraged than ever by Jennerpalooza carry on in silence and anonymity.  

 

Quite a feat, actually, to have lived a life of zero interaction with the transgender community and then appoint oneself its messiah simply because you have the money to do so.

But it's become something of a Catch-22.  The transgender community has to now zealously defend Caitlyn Jenner for similar reasons to why for decades the black community had to automatically defend Al Sharpton. It becomes a matter of "representation". A situation is created where an attack against "the community" risks, in people's minds, a weakening of their total position.

 

It's not a totally unjustified fear. But it always annoyed me seeing it with other communities of people, and so it annoys me now with this one. Not that Caitlyn is, at worst, any more than an opportunist--much worse people have been thrust into representing various communities... heck, exhibit A would be named "Cosby" for example. So really Caitlyn Jenner isn't all that worth getting upset over.

[millennium]

I realize Jenner won't effect any meaningful change.     It's like when Obama was elected and everybody rejoiced, "Hurrah, a black man has been elected President, this heralds an end to racism."

 

Uh huh.   We've had more race riots in the years since Obama was elected than in the decade before.  

 

And Obama had far greater potential to render social change than Jenner ever will. 

 

Now that I think about it, Jenner's less Obama and more Sarah Palin.   Someone who exploits their notoriety for personal gain but tries to dignify it by dressing it up in a cause.   Jenner deserves about as much respect as Sarah Palin.

Edited July 18, 2015 by millennium

[millennium]

The transgender community has to now zealously defend Caitlyn Jenner for similar reasons to why for decades the black community had to automatically defend Al Sharpton. It becomes a matter of "representation". A situation is created where an attack against "the community" risks, in people's minds, a weakening of their total position.

 

I'm not sure this is going to happen.    I think Jenner's arrogance, air of entitlement, and the ostentatious, self-centered display of wealth and fame turned off and angered many members of the community, to a point that they can't get behind Jenner no matter what.  Speaking for myself, Jenner strikes me as a wolf in lamb's clothing.     I can't shake that impression.   I could never get behind somebody who makes me feel like that, regardless of what they claim to represent.

Edited July 18, 2015 by millennium

[iwasish]

I was surprised when she said that up until now she has had no contact with other transgenders. I would have thought that she would have at least had some underground kind of circle of people with similar issues and gotten an insider look at  what lay ahead. She did say she began seeing a therapist. So I would think that person would have given her some places or groups she could attend anonymously.

 

Generally even the most closeted gay person has some contact with other gay people, I've never heard of someone just announcing "hey I'm gay" one day and beginning life as a gay person without ever having meet or socialized with other gays. I mean it's not like going blonde to brunette overnight.

[millennium]

I was surprised when she said that up until now she has had no contact with other transgenders. I would have thought that she would have at least had some underground kind of circle of people with similar issues and gotten an insider look at  what lay ahead. She did say she began seeing a therapist. So I would think that person would have given her some places or groups she could attend anonymously.

 

Generally even the most closeted gay person has some contact with other gay people, I've never heard of someone just announcing "hey I'm gay" one day and beginning life as a gay person without ever having meet or socialized with other gays. I mean it's not like going blonde to brunette overnight.

 

It reminds me of a wealthy guy who decides he wants to take up a hobby -- say, golf.   He never played golf before but he goes out out and blows a ton of money buying the best clubs, the most expensive clothes, he joins the most exclusive country club,  hires the best pros to give him lessons, and then after a just game or two goes around loudly and proudly proclaiming himself a career golfer.

 

Of course, for this allegory to be complete, the wealthy duffer would then have to be honored and recognized nationwide as the new Tiger Woods, regardless that he has next to no experience.

[MarysWetBar]

Being transgender is most certainly not a "hobby."

To compare it to someone taking up golf doesn't make any sense at all to me. Apologies if this comes off as rude cus i really don't mean it to be. I certainly don't know near enough about this issue to debate it but honestly feel that if everyone just let others live and let live without judging, the world would be a hell of a better place.

[GaT]

I just saw this on Reddit, & it was too funny not to share here 

http://imgur.com/hlxoCxB

[Kromm]

Think you stuck your foot in it this time, millennium!

 

If you mean to say that Jenner comes off as kind of a dilettante when it comes to transgenderism, I suppose I could see the point (if not agree it's necessarily proven), because by her very own testimony she'd "never met" a transgender person before a few weeks ago.

 

But the key phrase there is "comes off as". I mean even without actual sexual reassignment surgery, even just committing to declaring yourself a woman then having to follow up in this public a way takes a commitment.  You can't really go back on it.  Bruce Jenner is not going to suddenly pop up again in a few weeks when Caitlyn gets bored or something.

 

In a way my own negative reaction may be stronger, not weaker, than saying this is like a hobby.  Instead I think Caitlyn was just flat out lying about having never met a transgender person prior to a few weeks ago.  The statement was flat out public manipulation/speechmanship.

 

But a hobby?  Not at this point.

[millennium]

Think you stuck your foot in it this time, millennium!

 

If you mean to say that Jenner comes off as kind of a dilettante when it comes to transgenderism, I suppose I could see the point (if not agree it's necessarily proven), because by her very own testimony she'd "never met" a transgender person before a few weeks ago.

 

But the key phrase there is "comes off as". I mean even without actual sexual reassignment surgery, even just committing to declaring yourself a woman then having to follow up in this public a way takes a commitment.  You can't really go back on it.  Bruce Jenner is not going to suddenly pop up again in a few weeks when Caitlyn gets bored or something.

 

In a way my own negative reaction may be stronger, not weaker, than saying this is like a hobby.  Instead I think Caitlyn was just flat out lying about having never met a transgender person prior to a few weeks ago.  The statement was flat out public manipulation/speechmanship.

 

But a hobby?  Not at this point.

 

YMMV.   So far I have seen nothing that makes me believe I'm witnessing anything but a dilettante with an awful lot of money to throw around.   Jenner's life at the moment is an ongoing fashion show where there are crowds of people on hand to applaud each new outfit of the day, take photos, and opine how wonderful it all is.

 

But I wonder how long Jenner would last without the overwhelming positive reinforcement and financial windfall that comes with this unique situation -- or if the "journey" would ever have been undertaken at all without the promise of it. 

 

The only reward most people get from transitioning is the ability to live with oneself, and if lucky, to love as you believe you were meant to.   For most, that's enough, because inner peace is the true destination of the journey.  It's so precious that they risk everything, including the prospect of a very difficult and lonely life.

 

In Jenner's case, the priority and emphasis seem to be on publicity, building a brand and making lucrative business deals.

 

I don't sense any sincerity, truth or realness in all of this.   Everything seems staged.  I don't know what the reality show will add to the public's understanding of Jenner's motivations.   I won't be watching.   Why would I, when I believe that what will be shown on the screen will have no more credibility than an episode of the Real Housewives of [fill in the blank].

 

But like I said, your mileage may vary.

Edited July 19, 2015 by millennium

[Artsda]

 

Artsda we agree to disagree.  Kylie isn't an adult in my eyes because she has a home (can one buy a home at 17 on their own?).  She's not 18 yet. Who says 18 is really an adult.

The law?

 

Let her commit a crime, she's not being charged as a child. She's an adult. She's not going to change a lot in 20 days, when she legally becomes 18. In 20 days she can get married, vote. At 18 she can sign contracts without at co-signer. At 17 she did buy her house and put it in her name as the sole owner as long as someone (parent/guardian etc...) over 18 signed the contract for her which she probably has people in spades. 

[HumblePi]

I suppose if there's any downside for the transgender community in all of this is that Caitlyn's coverage has been focused so much on how she looks, what she's wearing, etc. I can see where it would lead to the impression that transgenderism is playing dress up -- and that is not what this is about. However, I think/hope that once things start to die down, probably about after the first season of her show airs, that there won't be so much focus on how Caitlyn looks and instead it is more about how she's finding/living life as a woman.

I would be very interested to get some feedback from actual people who wish to transition into the opposite gender. Those people, who are not as privileged financially as Bruce Jenner was, or as Caitlyn Jenner will be, transitioning is an extremely expensive process. Reportedly, Caitlyn spent $4 million on her transitioning. I think that Bruce Jenner lived a 'closet' existence as a woman for many years. All three wives and possibly his children had to be aware at some point that he had idiosyncrasies such as cross-dressing, obsession with plastic surgery and other feminine traits such as wearing makeup. The only difference now is that Caitlyn can live openly as a woman. Other people that want to transition the same as Caitlyn won't have the money to be able to surgically transition. For many, it will be nothing more than a life-dream.

Edited July 19, 2015 by HumblePi

[HumblePi]

It just goes to show what money, fame and popularity within pop culture can do for someone. The public is eager to see a rich, famous celebrity transition sexually but they dismiss the fact that because of her fame, she wasn't made culpable for vehicular homicide.

This is the boy-toy that Bruce was towing when he rear-ended the woman who died. He bragged to Brandon in one episode that the upgrades alone cost $30,000. It could be considered by some to be self-indulgent but with millions of dollars to play with, a person can indulge just about anything.

[Artsda]

E! is airing the 2 hour KUWTK Bruce/Caitlyn episodes tonight as a prequel to the premiere of "I am Cait" next week.

Edited July 19, 2015 by Artsda

[iwasish]

I would be very interested to get some feedback from actual people who wish to transition into the opposite gender. Those people, who are not as privileged financially as Bruce Jenner was, or as Caitlyn Jenner will be, transitioning is an extremely expensive process. Reportedly, Caitlyn spent $4 million on her transitioning. I think that Bruce Jenner lived a 'closet' existence as a woman for many years. All three wives and possibly his children had to be aware at some point that he had idiosyncrasies such as cross-dressing, obsession with plastic surgery and other feminine traits such as wearing makeup. The only difference now is that Caitlyn can live openly as a woman. Other people that want to transition the same as Caitlyn won't have the money to be able to surgically transition. For many, it will be nothing more than a life-dream.

All his wives knew.. and all the Kardashian girls knew for more than a decade, Kylie and Kendall saw signs and clues but they thought the girlie stuff belonged to dad's girlfriend. They said nothing to mom because they didn't want a divorce. It does explain why Kylie and Kendall were so  worked up in Thailand, accusing Kris and Caitlyn of keeping things from them and lying. For all the family talk about being open and honest and we have this unbreakable bond and tell each other everything, they certainly kept this one swept under the rug.  IMO, as time goes by, this family is going to start to fall apart, sides will be taken and boundaries drawn. There's always been the line drawn between  the Jenners and the K's. I suspect Caitlyn is going to have a whirlwind year or two and the kids will be left to keep in touch with her by phone, pretty much the way he kept in touch with them before, because Malibu was just SOOOO far away that they couldn't take the time to visit.

[Artsda]

 

IMO, as time goes by, this family is going to start to fall apart, sides will be taken and boundaries drawn.

While they put on a nice togetherness look at the ESPYs. I think lines are drawn already. Burt's tweet that he deleted and Kylie's response after Diane Sawyer aired for example.  Brody's running around saying anything to anyone about the family (Kendall & Kylie's sex life, Kourt&Scott, not being family anymore) then backtracking for attention.

 

I think Caitlyn will forever be closer (and choose) to the 6 raised as opposed to the 4 she did not.