After You, Leftenant: Gender and Race in Sleepy Hollow

[kimberella]

One thing I'm sure of is that, had Abbie been the one behaving like Crane did just in S1, Nicole would be without a job by the end of it, because the fans would have crucified her. A MOC wouldn't have lasted much longer and a white woman would have followed shortly after as well. As the white male lead, Crane can get away with everything, the writers know this very well and exploit it. Crane is not original, the television landscape has been littered with such men, Quirky White Jerkwads, for far too long. Crane must be QWJ #5k and I find it exhausting.

 

It's not that I can't be a fan of asshole characters. I have been and continue to be, but the writers acknowledge this and those characters are held accountable. There are consequences to their actions and this is something that's lacking shamefully in Crane's case. Goffman missed that boat so often, that I don't think the character is redeemable anymore. I don't think CC will ever address the Crane mess either. He might try to whitewash the character, tread more carefully and hope for the best, but that only cements the problem: QWJ get away with everything.

[phoenics]

My question is - and I'm seriously asking - how do you think CC could address this NOW after all of this time has passed and Abbie et al have all seemingly moved past it?

How can CC address it without having Ichabod do something ELSE that infuriates fans - just so he can be held accountable? Fans may not wait that long.

[Yolapukka]

 

How can CC address it without having Ichabod do something ELSE that infuriates fans - just so he can be held accountable? Fans may not wait that long.

 

 CC could have something happen to Crane that is analogous to what he put Abbie through and have it be the prompt for him to pointedly apologize for his behaviour towards her. It doesn't matter what the something is as long as it's not anything that makes Abbie look bad. She put up with a lot of inconvenience, tragedy, sacrifice and risk for their shared mission, to say nothing of his frequent pettishness and did so because she saw clear to her sense of duty (and liked him). His sense of duty was compromised by his distraction with his rotten family. The times that words like "Katrina was right" had to pass Abbie's lips made it worse for me as a viewer, because to my ears it seemed like she was implicitly apologizing for distracting from the attention that must be paid to the fabulousness of the sleepy wigstand.

[Julia]

The times that words like "Katrina was right" had to pass Abbie's lips made it worse for me as a viewer, because to my ears it seemed like she was implicitly apologizing for distracting from the attention that must be paid to the fabulousness of the sleepy wigstand.

 

Sidebar: if there were a bar called The Sleepy Wigstand anywhere near me, it would be my new local.

 

I have to think that the addition of her new boss, who sees her in a context that pulls time and focus away from her witness duties, is going to be a bit of a wakeup call for him.

[vanarnd1]

 CC could have something happen to Crane that is analogous to what he put Abbie through and have it be the prompt for him to pointedly apologize for his behaviour towards her. It doesn't matter what the something is as long as it's not anything that makes Abbie look bad. She put up with a lot of inconvenience, tragedy, sacrifice and risk for their shared mission, to say nothing of his frequent pettishness and did so because she saw clear to her sense of duty (and liked him). His sense of duty was compromised by his distraction with his rotten family. The times that words like "Katrina was right" had to pass Abbie's lips made it worse for me as a viewer, because to my ears it seemed like she was implicitly apologizing for distracting from the attention that must be paid to the fabulousness of the sleepy wigstand.

I agree, I think it is likely at some point in the season there will be a disagreement of sorts between them of how to proceed in their Witness duties, and that is where we can hopefully see some character growth from Ichabod by choosing Abbie/his role as a witness over his personal feelings.

 

And I can understand why they did not want to harp too much on what happened in Season 2 during the premiere, since they are trying to reboot the show and draw back in viewers, but I do feel like there is some unspoken awkardness and distance between Ichabod and Abbie over what happened last season, and it would do the show good to deal with it at some point. Esepcially if they start to tease Ichabbie romantically at some point soon.

[jhlipton]

Crane must be QWJ #5k.

 

It's not that I can't be a fan of asshole characters. I have been and continue to be, but the writers acknowledge this and those characters are held accountable. There are consequences to their actions .

 

I get [W]hite [J]erk, but what's the Q?

 

Dabney Coleman made a career of playing that type of character.  I loved Buffalo Bill, but it was made very clear he was a jerk.

 

Sidebar: if there were a bar called The Sleepy Wigstand anywhere near me, it would be my new local.

Dang. That was going to be my band name.

[frenchtoast]

Q=Quirky.

[jhlipton]

But the ratings for Extant were not great -- it's still a toss-up for a third season..

 

Extant's third season has been cancelled.  Now, Berry will produce (but not necessarily star in) Legalese:

"Legalease centers on a biracial lawyer from Chicago who follows a case to New Orleans, where she finds herself partnering with a good ol’ boy white attorney while working in a very particular justice system that will ultimately expose the biases we all harbor."

[Raja]

 

 

5. The Flash??? -- I don't know near enough about save for the fact that the canon black woman has been shoved aside for the non-canon white woman.

 

 

I don't know The Flash canon but I do know on screen they begin with the couple being raised as brother and sister bringing all kinds of ick factor into Barry wanting her and having that story always in the background.

[phoenics]

I don't know The Flash canon but I do know on screen they begin with the couple being raised as brother and sister bringing all kinds of ick factor into Barry wanting her and having that story always in the background.

They weren't raised as brother and sister - that's simply untrue. They were raised in the same house but NEVER saw each other as brother and sister. On the show, it is CANON that Barry was in love with Iris BEFORE they were living in the same house.

The "sibling" argument tends to be used as the "excuse" to marginalize Iris/Barry - specifically Iris, even though the producers, cast, etc, and even show canon have illustrated otherwise.

It tends to be used by some (not saying you are doing that Raja) to try to erase Iris from the canvas as a love interest and in general.

Edited October 10, 2015 by phoenics

[TaurusRose]

I have read the comments in this thread with varying degrees of approval and disagreement.  First, I will preface my comments with the following...it was always my impression that Ichabod Crane was the main character of Sleepy Hollow and that the show would concern itself with his trials and tribulations first.  After all, he was the man out of time which would elevate him as the most interesting of the two from a theme/plot standpoint, so I always thought of Abbie as the SECOND lead of the show.  This was supported by all of the original promotional material. Ichabod was always placed prominently, then Abbie, then whoever else.  The strength of NB's performance and the chemistry between her and TM naturally elevated Abbie in the eyes of fans to being Crane's equal, which she is in every way possible by the way, I'm just pointing out what seems (to me) to be the obvious thought process of the showrunners.  The fact that the cast was predominantly POC (by 1) during Season 1 just seemed a lucky happenstance to me.  I mean OJ's character could have been any ethnicity or nationality.  But I’m glad he wasn’t because Irving turned out to be an unexpected gift.  Sidebar:  I tuned in to SH mainly because of Orlando, I’ve always liked him as an actor.

Now as for Abbie (and by extension NB) being painted as undesirable, unsexy, incapable of being a love interest, blah, blah, blah, I take issue with all of that; although, I can certainly see how some people can come to that conclusion and use it as the focal point for their displeasure/argument.  During Season 1, Andy tried to protect Abbie because he felt more than friendship for her.  She had a relationship with the hot dude on the force that she apparently broke it off with, and by the end of the season, Crane had strong and protective feelings for Abbie.  Season 2 had a different vibe altogether.  Abbie and Crane were at odds even when they didn't want to admit it, and of course, the CFD aka the Katrina Show just doomed everything to dark, dull and stupid.  Even so, you had the wannabe surfer dude crushing on her as well as the newspaper dude.  And now we hear of a "relationship" during training at Quantico, so in my mind, these instances of attraction don't support the notion that Abbie is non-sexual or whatever.  Abbie's life experience has informed her personality...she is guarded, self-sufficient and reserved.  She doesn't like depending on anyone other than herself and she doesn't trust easily.  But again, given who Abbie is and what she has endured, it makes perfect sense. I like Abbie's reserve and no-nonsense approach to life.  However, at no time does Abbie's strength, smarts or autonomy translate into she "doesn't need a man" to me. Rather, I see Abbie as the one with "discriminating taste.”  Personally, I don't believe Abbie has yet met anyone who is worthy of her. 

As to the charge that Fox is willfully killing romance between leads of different skin colors, I’m not ready to buy into that yet, but even if it’s true, there are other television shows (past and present) that don’t have a problem with it.  For example, the BBC series “Merlin.”  Guinevere was played by a biracial (read black) actress.  The series took a novel approach to the legend of King Arthur, so Guinevere started out as a servant, but Arthur fell in love with her and she eventually became the Queen of Camelot, and she was always the love of Arthur's life. Sidebar:  I adore legends and myths, so King Arthur has always been a favorite of mine.  However, I never liked the character of Guinevere until the BBC series.  On “Buffy the Vampire Slayer” Xander flirted with Kendra (Bianca Lawson) and Giles had a very adult relationship with his English rose who just happened to be a black woman.  The “Vampire Diaries” put Bonnie (Kat Graham) and Jeremy together and even Dean Winchester’s first love Cassie was a pretty black woman.  And how can we forget the craziness between Olivia Pope and the Prez over in Shondaland (although, I don’t like this pairing).  I'm sure there are other additions to the list that are escaping me just now, but point is black women have been portrayed as sexy and desirable and, “dainty flowers” to be protected, too, if that’s your ilk on network television. 

 

I can see Crane and Mills in a romantic relationship, but it would be a slow burn.  Crane would never make a move on Abbie without some hint that she would be receptive.  And we know that Abbie moves like molasses in winter when it comes to opening up and trusting someone with her heart.

Edited October 14, 2015 by taurusrose

[cynic]

I would actually disagree that the show was set up for Abbie to be secondary and she was elevated. Abbie, from the very start, was the the audience insert character, our pov into the craziness. Her character got the biggest portion of development and drove the story through the first half dozen or so episodes with the death of her partner/mentor/father figure, her dealing with her past and secret, reconciling with her sister, and giving up on her dream to accept her role as a witness. Many of the early episodes were her stories and they addressed her issues and we saw how they ultimately affected her. Crane's awakening was the catalyst for the show and he tied much of it together and provided the color, but the meat and potatoes for the first half of season 1 belonged to Abbie. I would call show a two-hander by design, but it definitely leaned more to Abbie early on. I also would disagree that the promotional materials showed Crane as the lead. The early promo stuff showed Abbie and Ichabod in a variety of positions in regard to each other, some with her in front and others with her behind. The main season 1 cast photo shows them side by side. It wasn't until the show hit that people starting emphasizing Crane. 

 

As for black women being shown as desireable, I wouldn't use the existence of a handful of shows (especially the foreign Merlin, considering American TV is so influential worldwide) that feature black actresses in underdeveloped relationships like Bonnie (compare her relationships to what Caroline gets) and a selection of one or two-off guest appearances (two from Buffy circa 1997!) with no development to suggest that black women are treated as desireable on tv  or they get equal access to being dainty flowers. The vast majority of time that black women get featured roles, they are playing undesireable sassy comic relief, ballbusting bosses, underdeveloped authority figures, warrior types, or supportive best friends. Bonnie Bennet, case in point, has been a self-sacrificing walking plot point for years without much of her own POV or motivation (other than to die for the precious Elena). She disappeared for stretches of episodes at a time with nary a mention over many seasons. It's only in the last few years that she's even come into her own. Her relationship with Jeremy was in no way treated like Caroline's with Stephan or even Caroline with Tyler. And Caroline has had several relationships over the course of the series, compared to Bonnie's lackluster one with Jeremy. And she's alone again being besties with Damon, which I actually don't mind since this is the most she's gotten to do in like six years. And while I can point out a thousand white females in OTP romantic pairings, I can only point to one black female in one that isn't in a show written by Shonda in America and that is Iris on the Flash and they're not even together yet. I have never seen the culmination of a healthy romantic pairing in the spotlight that starred a black woman (Shonda's stuff is toxic). I would love to see one. 

Edited October 14, 2015 by cynic

[TaurusRose]

I appreciate your point of view regarding Abbie in Season 1.  I guess I’d forgotten how the stories seemed to lean toward her character and flesh her out more than they did in Season 2, but I’ve already voiced my opinion on Season 2.  Still, the promo I remember had Crane prominently displayed, Abbie next and so on.  I liked the Season 2 promo that had them reaching for each other, but it sure was misleading when considering the season itself.

 

As for the second part of your post, I don’t really see your point.  If a show presented a white man in a romantic relationship with a black woman, how can you say it doesn’t count because it was only a few episodes or considered under-developed?  These were forerunners to what you’re seeing now.  Buffy ran from 1997 to 2003, the episode I'm thinking of with Giles (1999) made it clear that the relationship between Giles and Olivia had some weight and history.  So, it doesn't really matter that she only appeared in one episode.  It counts because it showed a relationship between a WM/BW.  First season Dean Winchester was all about hunting, whoring and Sammy.  But the episode that introduced Cassie revealed her to be his first love and her reappearance reignited the flame for him.  Jeremy aside, Bonnie has never been more than an afterthought on TVD.  Maybe things will change now that Elena is gone, if so, someone will have to tell me because I stopped watching that show years ago.  Still, TVD put Bonnie in an interracial relationship and that’s the point I’m making with these examples (because I got the impression that some people thought that BW/WM relationships had never been presented before SH or Scandal). 

 

And I certainly don’t dismiss Merlin because it wasn’t American made.  I found it totally refreshing (and surprising) that an English show presented a black woman as one of the most fabled beauties in the land. It doesn’t matter if the main relationship was Merlin and Arthur, the second most important relationship on that show was Gwen and Arthur’s. Y’all wanted a love story between a black woman and a white man that was romantic and passionate.  Well, the Brits did it and they did it very well, so maybe Hollywood will stop tippy-toeing around the issue like its unnatural.  I mean seriously.  What the fuck is the matter with people when they'll scream bloody murder if they see a man and woman with different skin tones together?  I. don't. get. it.  And yeah, I have a swirl relationship, too.

Edited October 14, 2015 by taurusrose

[jhlipton]

I have never seen the culmination of a healthy romantic pairing in the spotlight that starred a black woman (Shonda's stuff is toxic). I would love to see one. 

 

Follow this quote back to where phoenics and I discuss the shows with black female leads (I added Extant later).

 

 

I think we're seeing a much wider spectrum of relationships for black women (certainly in the first 3), and that's a Good Thing.  We can certainly do with more!

 

Molly in Extant had 2 healthy romantic pairings -- with her husband John in season 1, and with JD in season 2 (and those were just the onscreen pairings -- she also had a healthy romantic relationship with Marcus, who died before the show started).

 

I doubt Minority Report will last long enough for Lara to have any kind of romantic pairing, but if she does, I'm fairly certain it will be as equals (I kind of want her and Arthur to get it on -- it might be volatile but fun).

 

(On Empire, as toxic as Cookie's and Luscious' relationship is now, it seemed healthy until she went to prison.  Her romance with the bodyguard was short-lived but seemed pretty healthy.)

 

I don't mean to diminish your point -- I can find only a half dozen or so shows that even come close to the standards of WM/WF relationships.  And that sucks!

[cynic]

Cookie was in a relationship with a man that emotionally abused their son and was her accomplice in crime. That's not really the kind of relationship I'm talking about. I'll check out Extant though (if I can find it streaming since it's been cancelled).

 

Actually, I shouldn't have used the word "healthy", because so many love matches on tv are not exactly functional. What I would like to see is black women being treated to the same kind of lush, epic OTP storylines as white women get routinely. I want to see black woman get to be not only desired physically, but valued and cherished, fought for and protected. I want to see black women get to be in complex relationships where she is loved and that love is shown as worthy of exploration and celebration as white women's relationships routinely are. I want to see a black woman get treated like her thoughts and feeling, motivations, choices and future matter, like she matters. As a black woman, I'm tired of really only seeing people that look like me as sidekicks, supporting characters, or guest stars in another person's story. No, I'm sorry, I don't hold up a character who appeared in maybe two or three episodes almost twenty years ago and probably had ten lines total, a character who probably didn't even have a last name, and someone who was not held up as having Gile's heart (as Jenny Calendar did) as an example that television does treat black women as desireable and worthy of love. I also do not accept Kendra as a good example when all she had (back in 1997 in her first appearance) was Xander hitting on her as the schmuck did to pretty much every girl that came into his orbit and then walking away from her when all she could do was stammer at him since she had never been allowed to speak to boys. I don't see why those examples should should even be acceptable to me, not to mention enough to convince me. I would like to see black women presented as more than that. 

 

Recently, very recently, the tide seems to be turning a bit. Olivia Pope and Fitz (as much as I hate that toxic relationship, Fitz's issues, and how he has treated Olivia like dirt quite often) was the first time I have ever seen a black woman given the epic love OTP treatment on mainstream American tv. (And yes, I'm much more concerned about American tv, because I live in the US and our culture is different and apparently less accepting of racial diversity than UK viewers and since mass media has such an influence on culture and representation in our mass media matters, I'm not considering foreign shows.) Olivia Pope seems to have broken a barrier with regards to both a black woman leading a mainstream television drama and to being a black woman in a romance. Without Olivia, I don't think we would have Abbie or Cookie or Vega. I hope someday to have a romance I can root for too. Maybe Barry and Iris is it, if they can ever get their crap together (and if the showrunners ever decide to give her a POV and character development like is routinely afforded to Caitlin). Then I can ship them like Buffy/Angel, Peter/Olivia, Liz/Max, Auggie/Annie, Piper/Leo, Max/Logan, Spencer/Toby, Elena/Damon(or Stefan), Chuck/Sarah, Logan/Veronica, Sydney/Vaughn, Desmond/Penny, Ross/Rachel, Hook/Swan, Luke/Lorelai, Doug/Carol, Jim/Pam, Pacey/Joey, Willow/Oz, Meredith/Derek, Chuck/Blair, Sawyer/Juliet, Donna/Eric etc...

 

For what it's worth, I did love Merlin and Arthur/Guinevere. Almost nobody I know has ever even heard of the show, much less watched it, but I was a fan. I do seek out foreign shows for various reasons, one being the diversity. I hope we can catch up here. 

[Enero]

For what it's worth, I did love Merlin and Arthur/Guinevere. Almost nobody I know has ever even heard of the show, much less watched it, but I was a fan. I do seek out foreign shows for various reasons, one being the diversity. I hope we can catch up here. 

 

cynic -  I agree with everything you've said. However, I have to disagree with regards to Arthur and Guinevere on Merlin. I often see them being mentioned as an IR couple to look to as being written well and I have to disagree. Though I liked them, I didn't think the writers did any build up to the relationship and found that they almost never gave Gwen a POV. She was exclusively around to give Arthur encouraging speeches. Things got even worse after they married. The show had checked the box, fulfilling the legend of Arthur/Guinevere and was then free to focus on their OTP Arthur/Merlin.  After the marriage, Gwen was practically a stranger to Arthur and was rarely seen. The only time they acted like a couple was when it served the plot - when she was being possessed by some evil force. So though I did like them together and thought Arthur always seemed to respect her, she wasn't written much better than most WOC on US shows.

 

In fact, I'd argue that the few UK shows I've watched doesn't do a much better job than the US with WOC. Yes they will make them love interests but I have yet to see them get an extensive POV like other characters. Though there very well could be some shows out there since I've obviously not seen every UK show that featured a WOC.

Edited October 15, 2015 by Enero

[fantique]

My question is - and I'm seriously asking - how do you think CC could address this NOW after all of this time has passed and Abbie et al have all seemingly moved past it?

How can CC address it without having Ichabod do something ELSE that infuriates fans - just so he can be held accountable? Fans may not wait that long.

Someone (cynic?) has brought up good ways but also stop the laissez-faire on Abbie's side. She doesn't have to "call him out" but she should be allowed to express her annoyance when he is being difficult just like me showing it doesn't mean I hate my friends, they are just hard to deal with sometimes. I know the writers are worried and scared to take away what people like about the show but tension in their bond was a logical next step after that year of self-effacing and cleaning up she had to endure. Heck, they could have simply made it that they mutually decided to separate because they both needed time away from each other. I think the simple perspective of seeing some of Crane's behaviour as a problem on the writers' part would make the situation better. 

 

As for the second part of your post, I don’t really see your point.  If a show presented a white man in a romantic relationship with a black woman, how can you say it doesn’t count because it was only a few episodes or considered under-developed?  These were forerunners to what you’re seeing now.  Buffy ran from 1997 to 2003, the episode I'm thinking of with Giles (1999) made it clear that the relationship between Giles and Olivia had some weight and history.  So, it doesn't really matter that she only appeared in one episode.  It counts because it showed a relationship between a WM/BW.  First season Dean Winchester was all about hunting, whoring and Sammy.  But the episode that introduced Cassie revealed her to be his first love and her reappearance reignited the flame for him.  Jeremy aside, Bonnie has never been more than an afterthought on TVD.  Maybe things will change now that Elena is gone, if so, someone will have to tell me because I stopped watching that show years ago.  Still, TVD put Bonnie in an interracial relationship and that’s the point I’m making with these examples (because I got the impression that some people thought that BW/WM relationships had never been presented before SH or Scandal). 

 

And I certainly don’t dismiss Merlin because it wasn’t American made.  I found it totally refreshing (and surprising) that an English show presented a black woman as one of the most fabled beauties in the land. It doesn’t matter if the main relationship was Merlin and Arthur, the second most important relationship on that show was Gwen and Arthur’s. Y’all wanted a love story between a black woman and a white man that was romantic and passionate.  Well, the Brits did it and they did it very well, so maybe Hollywood will stop tippy-toeing around the issue like its unnatural.  I mean seriously.  What the fuck is the matter with people when they'll scream bloody murder if they see a man and woman with different skin tones together?  I. don't. get. it.  And yeah, I have a swirl relationship, too.

Hmm...these are instances of TV storytelling pitfalls. Just like this show proved repetitively, telling (instead of showing) doesn't register in the viewers' mind. So telling us "hey! This is Dean's first love, one whom he talked about the supernatural with" means jacksquat if we never see her again. Especially when you're referencing season 1 of an eleven season show. How many viewers even remember Cassie, as opposed to Jessica, Helen, Lisa, Jo or Charlie? I certainly had no idea who you were talking about at first and I love SPN.

For the Giles thing, yeah, it really doesn't count because we were told that and then she disappeared. Do half the viewers even remember she appeared? Does the show bring her up past her departure (not rhetorical questions my BTVS recollection is shoddy at best)? TV is a medium that is by nature based on some amount of repetition. If it's brought up once in an episode then never discussed, then the script is treating it as inconsequential, regardless of what it told us it is.

 

Oh, and, as we've seen so far, the promo department seems detached from the writers and producers so I don't think the promo is an indication of the show's concept of whose story this is.

 

As for dismissing Non-American shows, I am in the middle because there are two contexts.

1) The analytical one, where we are analysing American TV, a pop culture expression of American life and values. The idea here is, TV is not representing fairly black women as actual women. They are always a prop, not a character with a POV and motivations of their own. In the analysis of that, yes, UK shows are irrelevant. Because we are analysing attitudes by people who create as well as those who consume, US produced shows are a better indicator of the suspected attitude. Where I am differing from some ladies here, I think is that I don't think it changing on TV will make a difference. It's sad but TVs attitude towards black women is a reflection of how society views them, even if people don't realise it. Doesn't mean they are shitty people, I didn't realise the extent of it and I am a black woman who has lived (albeit intermittently) in the US for 4 years now.

1) The viewership/sphere of influence one, looking at whether it matters that it exists and if it is changing anything in production habits. Here UK shows are relevant because when they are successful, US distributors take note and try to copy that too so in that sense, they do matter.

 

cynic -  I agree with everything you've said. However, I have to disagree with regards to Arthur and Guinevere on Merlin. I often see them being mentioned as an IR couple to look to as being written well and I have to disagree. Though I liked them, I didn't think the writers did any build up to the relationship and found that they almost never gave Gwen a POV. She was exclusively around to give Arthur encouraging speeches. Things got even worse after they married. The show had checked the box, fulfilling the legend of Arthur/Guinevere and was then free to focus on their OTP Arthur/Merlin.  After the marriage, Gwen was practically a stranger to Arthur and was rarely seen. The only time they acted like a couple was when it served the plot - when she was being possessed by some evil force. So though I did like them together and thought Arthur always seemed to respect her, she wasn't written much better than most WOC on US shows.

 

In fact, I'd argue that the few UK shows I've watched doesn't do a much better job than the US with WOC. Yes they will make them love interests but I have yet to see them get an extensive POV like other characters. Though there very well could be some shows out there since I've obviously not seen every UK show that featured a WOC.

I disagree about Guinevere, she had quite a bit of completely independent from Arthur storylines. Her friendships with Morgana and Merlin made it so she was often part of the main plot and there have been a few times, IIRC, where her family was focused on for drama for her character. Maybe I am misremembering but I certainly feel like she got more decent storylines and screen time than most love interests, white or black, ever get in fantasy stories. She was more than a prize for Arthur doing a good job. But maybe I wasn't paying attention, I don't know.

 

Well the thing is, when I tried to think, most UK shows are ensemble shows. The only show in my mind at the moment is Sherlock, and the only main WoC is Donovan. She is the main opposition to Sherlock's presence in police investigations. They don't go into her back story (tbh, Moffat isn't even fond of going into Sherlock's backstory) but she certainly is a character with a personality, point of view and goals. I actually like that in series 3, they showed that while she's an a-hole to Sherlock, she is clearly perfectly able to be nice and good company to other people. I don't know if this is a good example at all though. This show's format and structure is so different. Luther, the show, treated his wife (played by Indira Varma) pretty well, story wise. 

But this is not a UK vs US showdown. The parameters are simply way too complex and different to try and form parallels. History is different, who the PoC in each country consist of is different, the length of cohabitation of the different ethnic groups is different... I find it futile to try to apply America perspective there just like it makes little sense to do the reverse.

I think we can look at shows individually, but unless we spend equal time watching both countries' shows, it's hard to not have an unbalance in representation and interpretation when inferring national trends in relation to each other.

 

Anyway, my focus is much more on the characters feeling valued as individuals in the writers' room. Yes, love/relationships are a part of that but other factors matter to me. That's why the whole "they should get what white women have" thing is a problem for me. Women, in general, especially on TV, do not have much of a voice. Unless they are in some kind of thriller or procedural, women just don't get much focus. Even then, the production side seems to feel the need to overcompensate by having an army of men around the main female as if to assuage the audience. Like "don't worry guys, you will not be asked to connect with a woman...here are the alternatives!" They always make sure we don't have to feel connected to the female lead. Now, when it's a male lead,we're rarely given opportunities to connect with anyone's pov and emotions other than him from the get go. I think last TV season's love of rape, especially to motivate a male character proved that there is a lot of work to do for all women. I certainly don't think the way mainstream entertainment is treating white women is something to aspire to.

[cynic]

Yes, it's too difficult to compare US to foreign shows because the context matters and because we only see a selection of shows from other countries in the US. The ones we get to see may not be representative at all of what is typical. 

As for individuals shows:

I honestly don't have a great recollection of Merlin. Certainly the most important relationship and arguably the OTP was Merlin/Arthur. I did love that a WoC was cast as Gwen and got a proper romantic storyline. She wasn't always well-written, but I do think that she got at least some episodes where she was able to exert her own views and motivations and I did like how she ended up. 

I also quite enjoyed Alisha and Simon's relationship on Misfits (although there were some significant writing problems in that show and that relationship probably shouldn't have existed in the first place).

Annie in Being Human wasn't the best character, but I do think the writers tried to give her significant development and have her be well-rounded.

Poor Martha on Doctor Who was kinda shafted though.

There's a Canadian show called Killjoys on SyFy with a PoC lead and she has both a best male friend/partner and a romance. It's not Shakespeare and the romance is actually the worst part of the show, but it's a fun romp with some higher aspirations.

 

And I totally get and agree with your point about women in general not getting proper treatment on tv. I just think that in the hierarchy of things, black women often tend to get put on the absolute bottom in how they're portrayed. I would just like to see some progress. Simply being treated as badly as white women would be better than what happens now sadly.

 

But I disagree on media only being a reflection of culture. I personally think media has the power to shape culture as well, from reinforcing beauty standards to exposing people to new/different cultures to changing attitudes. You can see it in places where western media has changed the perception of how women should look so people want thinner bodies or double eyelids. You can see it in the attitudes of young black girls who only want to play with the "pretty" white dolls. And I truly believe that seeing different races or people of different sexual orientation or gender in non-stereotypical roles has helped to break some barriers from The Cosby Show, Fresh Prince, Will and Grace, Modern Family, Orange is the New Black, Transparent etc. These things probably don't change ingrained attitudes, but I hope to see the influence in the next generation.

Edited October 15, 2015 by cynic

[jhlipton]

If we look at which shows really keep a WOC in the lead, one thing I notice is that a powerful woman of color has major control -- Shonda Rimes is the obvious example, and Halle Berry is stepping into the role, but we can't forget Mindy Kaling, whose Mindy Project is continuing on Hulu.  She's had several boyfriends who find her attractive, even sexy, and she's about to marry her "baby-daddy".  

 

Any thoughts?

[cynic]

I'm not a big fan of Shonda's shows (though I have enjoyed Scandal off and on), but I definitely appreciate what she's done and I'm glad to see more diversity increasing coming to tv both in front of and behind the camera. Extant, Blackish, Fresh Off the Boat, Dr Ken, and Empire among others either have PoC as creators or producers.  If we're ever going to have true diversity, it's the attitudes and existing power structures behind entertainment that has to change, Matt Damon!

 

As for Mindy, I have mixed feelings about her. I love that she has created and stars in her own show. I love that she portrays herself as a desirable woman when she doesn't conform to the Hollywood standard in terms of ethnicity, skin color, and body type. I like a lot of her show and find it amusing. I do not like that, although her character breaks stereotypes, she has a black female supporting character who is sassy and a total stereotype. Also, that black female came in later, but when the show started, the only PoC in the cast was Mindy herself. I stopped watching after two seasons, so I can't say what the show is like now, but Mindy had tons of male romantic interests in those two seasons and I believe every one of them was a white male. I'm not saying that she has more of a duty to promote diversity as a PoC herself, but I do think her show has some issues in the area that she only gets away with because she is a PoC herself.

 

On a related note, Issa Rae is getting a series on HBO.

http://www.newsday.com/entertainment/tv/issa-rae-gets-hbo-series-order-1.10971612

Edited October 17, 2015 by cynic

[jhlipton]

As for Mindy, I have mixed feelings about her. I love that she has created and stars in her own show. I love that she portrays herself as a desirable woman when she doesn't conform to the Hollywood standard in terms of ethnicity, skin color, and body type. I like a lot of her show and find it amusing. I do not like that, although her character breaks stereotypes, she has a black female supporting character who is sassy and a total stereotype.

Mindy had tons of male romantic interests in those two seasons and I believe every one of them was a white male. I'm not saying that she has more of a duty to promote diversity as a PoC herself, but I do think her show has some issues in the area that she only gets away with because she is a PoC herself.

On one hand, all the characters are fairly trope-ish, but since Tamra is the least explored character, her trope stands out. I wouldn't mind more Tamra-centric episodes.

I have no problem with Mindy only dating white men. A lot of people find one hair color more attractive than another; even more so with skin color.

[phoenics]

On one hand, all the characters are fairly trope-ish, but since Tamra is the least explored character, her trope stands out. I wouldn't mind more Tamra-centric episodes.

I have no problem with Mindy only dating white men. A lot of people find one hair color more attractive than another; even more so with skin color.

When it comes to race it is never as simple as preference. Race comes with too much cultural and societal baggage in order for it to be about "preference" alone. Especially given the colorism rampant in India due to colonization. It's why many were peeved at Shonda at the beginning of Scandal - all of Liv's men were white. Thankfully Shonda rounded that out.

[jhlipton]

When it comes to race it is never as simple as preference. Race comes with too much cultural and societal baggage in order for it to be about "preference" alone. 

 

I don't know.  Speaking personally, I've admired women of darker hues from all sorts of cultural backgrounds, as well as many whose backgrounds I don't know.  I prefer Storm to Rogue, Abbie to Beckett, Kelly Rowland to Beyonce.  I think that sometimes, color is just color.

 

The baggage is there, definitely.  And I can't say if Mindy prefers white men just because of the color, or because of the baggage.  I suspect a mix of the two,

[phoenics]

Thanks for that perspective jhlipton. Maybe the colorism is an issue more if you're in the colonized group or descended from it?

[jhlipton]

Thanks for that perspective jhlipton. Maybe the colorism is an issue more if you're in the colonized group or descended from it?

I can't answer that. There are a few "swirl" sites, run by black women who prefer white men, where I suppose one could ask...

[phoenics]

Oh Lordt. Lol.

[LeoSwag]

Long time lurker, delurking. I love this forum/thread however comma I'm mad at y'all for not mentioning Eureka in the discussion of BW/WM OTP relationships.

 

Allison Blake was gettin it in with her little fertile self. lol  

 

eta: There was suppsed to be a quote in here. IDK where it went. :(

 

etfa:

 

And while I can point out a thousand white females in OTP romantic pairings, I can only point to one black female in one that isn't in a show written by Shonda in America and that is Iris on the Flash and they're not even together yet. I have never seen the culmination of a healthy romantic pairing in the spotlight that starred a black woman (Shonda's stuff is toxic). I would love to see one.

Edited November 1, 2015 by LeoSwag

[Julia]

Long time lurker, delurking. I love this forum/thread however comma I'm mad at y'all for not mentioning Eureka in the discussion of BW/WM OTP relationships.

 

Allison Blake was gettin it in with her little fertile self. lol  

 

eta: There was suppsed to be a quote in here. IDK where it went. :(

And, now that you mention it, so were Kim and Jo. WOC getting some, that is. Not fertile :)

[Miss Dee]

Welcome LeoSwag! It's so much fun to talk about Sleepy Hollow when it's going well; please join in on the fun!

[Julia]

I thought it was interesting that when her boss / ex? went over the edge, he got all bunny boiler at her (your new roommate who I assume you're with is somehow my business, you don't know what effect you have on people, that kind of thing). So, while he most likely keeps that sort of thing under better control most of the time, this makes the third man in a row (stalker!Andy and ex who wouldn't take no for a final answer) who was having a relationship with whoever he decided Abbie was and just assumed her participation.

 

We know Abbie is reserved, but it sounds like the men around her are projecting at her like it's their job. I can kind of understand why she would find it restful to be in a platonic relationship with someone. 

[Miss Dee]

I agree. Part of what draws Abbie and Ichabod to each other is that they can be themselves, no deceit.

[Indi]

It turns out the writer for episode 3.06 is a black woman. Now everything makes sense. I noticed Abbie wasn't bending over backwards to prop up Ichy and he wasn't the gravitational center of the story.

[jhlipton]

Another sexy black woman lead who is viewed as sexy -- Roberta Wilson on Z Nation.  It's a very silly show (it's from the folks who brought us the Sharknado films, after all), but they treat Kellita Smith and her character with respect.

[Julia]

Eureka was pretty much the gold standard for WOC being an object of desire for men, what with Alison and Jo having multiple men competing for them for years and Henry being willing to destroy the universe to keep Kim.

Edited December 16, 2015 by Julia

[phoenics]

Eureka was pretty much the gold standard for WOC being an object of desire for men, what with Alison and Jo having multiple men competing for them for years and Henry being willing to destroy the universe to keep Kim.

 

Well clearly I need to go and watch Eureka on netflix or something.

[Enero]

Well clearly I need to go and watch Eureka on netflix or something.

You really should when you have time. The first couple of seasons were really good. The lead female was a woman of color, Sally Richardson, who not only got storylines but was a pretty well rounded woman. She had a life, family, sex and men fighting over her.

Thank you Leoswag for bringing up that show. I'd forgotten about it. It really does leave all the other shows mentioned in the dust when it comes to a show fully utilizing a WOC in a lead role.

[cynic]

I'm watching Lucifer. It reminds me a lot of Sleepy Hollow actually. Tall, gorgeous Brit playing a fish out of water in a supernatural setting paired with a no-nonsense female cop on Fox. She's a blonde though. It's only two episodes in, but it looks like they're going OTP with the lead pair. He's fascinated with her and her influence on him is already changing him, making him care blah blah. The show could swerve on me, but it appears they are already setting up this ship. It's quite a contrast to what happened on Sleepy Hollow.

Also, this seems like exactly the type of show that would share a potential audience with Sleepy Hollow. I only saw one ad for SH's return on Friday. Considering it's changing days/times after a really long hiatus, you would think that Fox would do a better job promoting it.

[LydiaMoon1]

I'm watching Lucifer. It reminds me a lot of Sleepy Hollow actually. Tall, gorgeous Brit playing a fish out of water in a supernatural setting paired with a no-nonsense female cop on Fox. She's a blonde though. It's only two episodes in, but it looks like they're going OTP with the lead pair.

Sounds to me like Fox has already replaced SH and rebooted the series with a female lead more to their liking.

[jhlipton]

Sounds to me like Fox has already replaced SH and rebooted the series with a female lead more to their liking.

 

And a racist one at that.  Not only is the female lead white, but Lucy (as his friends call Lucifer) went to a black rapper's house and told him that hip-hop ie black music) stunk, but that blues (which white people literally stole from black people) was cool.  Also, the only person Lucy physically threatened was the black rapper.  Yay!

[LeeLeePanda]

And a racist one at that. Not only is the female lead white, but Lucy (as his friends call Lucifer) went to a black rapper's house and told him that hip-hop ie black music) stunk, but that blues (which white people literally stole from black people) was cool. Also, the only person Lucy physically threatened was the black rapper. Yay!

Not to get off topic, that's incredibly problematic! I definitely will not be watching Lucifer at all.

[cynic]

I didn't even notice the rap thing, but I watched iZombie's women's jail episode the same week which offended me so much that probably nothing else registered for at least a few days.

I'm actually going to stick with Lucifer for awhile and hope that it was a fluke. I'm enjoying the lead guy's performance and an interested in the mythology of the show.

I might give up on iZombie though.

[jhlipton]

I didn't even notice the rap thing, but I watched iZombie's women's jail episode the same week which offended me so much that probably nothing else registered for at least a few days.

 

I like iZombie a lot, but they had a bit of problem with racist content before...  

 

It's 2016, people, get with the damn program!!!!!

[LydiaMoon1]

I'm actually going to stick with Lucifer for awhile and hope that it was a fluke. I'm enjoying the lead guy's performance and an interested in the mythology of the show.

 

I like iZombie a lot, but they had a bit of problem with racist content before... It's 2016, people, get with the damn program!!!!!

 

I've never watched either show so I may be way off base here, but what incentive do showrunners and networks have to discontinue  racist content if they keep getting rewarded with loyal viewership?  I mean, I can see if the offensive content is being used to build a character profile (hopefully for a character no one is supposed to like), but if racism is the regular behavior of any of the show's main protagonists that we're supposed to like and viewers continue to watch and enjoy the show, then they've signaled their agreement with the offensive content and given their tacit approval for any vile representations that follow to continue.

Edited February 4, 2016 by LydiaMoon1

[cynic]

If I stopped watching all the shows that I ever had any kind of problem with, I would have practically nothing to watch. I try to pick my battles.

The iZombie scene was definitely not for character development. I felt that it was a cheap gag that played off bad stereotypes and mocked serious issues. And it felt intentional. I'm giving up that show.

I wasn't as bothered by the stuff in Lucifer, so I'm willing to take a wait and see approach. It barely just started and the rap scene was in the pilot. Pilots aren't necessarily the best indication of what a show is going to be like. It may not even have the same behind the scenes people once it's picked up. Look at SH. Imo, it had an amazing pilot with a diverse cast and a black female co-lead who was given just as much importance and depth of characterization as the white male co-lead. That quickly went to crap. And yet, it's still better than most shows with regards to diversity.

But if Abbie is sidelined for more than just tonight's episode, I think I'm going to finally give up on giving this show second chances. It's like they think they're going to appease fans by teasing the Ichabbie ship and showing Crane's love for her, but then they decide to do it by making everything all about Crane again. It's his feelings and loss that are driving this plot. Abbie better have a strong story of her own next week or I'm throwing up my hands.

[jhlipton]

If I stopped watching all the shows that I ever had any kind of problem with, I would have practically nothing to watch. I try to pick my battles.

 

I wasn't as bothered by the stuff in Lucifer, so I'm willing to take a wait and see approach. It barely just started and the rap scene was in the pilot. Pilots aren't necessarily the best indication of what a show is going to be like. 

 

True enough.  They avoided the problem altogether by only having white characters in the second episode...

 

 

 

I've never watched either show so I may be way off base here, but what incentive do showrunners and networks have to discontinue  racist content if they keep getting rewarded with loyal viewership?  I mean, I can see if the offensive content is being used to build a character profile (hopefully for a character no one is supposed to like), but if racism is the regular behavior of any of the show's main protagonists that we're supposed to like and viewers continue to watch and enjoy the show, then they've signaled their agreement with the offensive content and given their tacit approval for any vile representations that follow to continue.

 

I don't recall the women's prison episode, but in the one I'm familiar with, Liv takes on the personality of a guy whose racism is pretty out there.  So having her say racist things is dicey, It's never condones, especially by Liv, and it was more a facet of the guy [This is my perceptive -- I understand that others will see it differently] .  The show's been pretty good on race (from my white guy perspective at least) with the three main characters being white, Indian and black.

[cynic]

True enough.  They avoided the problem altogether by only having white characters in the second episode...

That's not true. The villain was brown. :P Yeah, I'm keeping my eye on it. 

 

 

I don't recall the women's prison episode, but in the one I'm familiar with, Liv takes on the personality of a guy whose racism is pretty out there.  So having her say racist things is dicey, It's never condones, especially by Liv, and it was more a facet of the guy [This is my perceptive -- I understand that others will see it differently] .  The show's been pretty good on race (from my white guy perspective at least) with the three main characters being white, Indian and black.

Liv went to jail and spent her time there with a horrible caricature of a loudmouth, low class fat black woman who was all attitude and stupidity. The woman kept spouting off at the injustice of her arrest even though from her story, she was clearly guilty of her drug charges and just had a tenuous grasp of double jeopardy or logic in general. Then they had her chanting "Ferguson" like a loon. The whole thing seemed to be a pointed mockery of the idea that there is racial bias in the criminal justice system. I wouldn't be surprised if her name in the script drafts was "Dindu Nuffin". There's no point to her character or any nuance given to her. She's presented as a huge cartoonish joke which culminates in Liv almost eating her which the show seemed to be winking at like it would be funny because she was the worst anyway. There were actually two black women in that episode. The other was a slutty crazy stalker. I don't recall if there have ever been any other black women in the cast, but the black guy seems to be handled okay. I'm not really sure what was going on in this episode. Edited February 6, 2016 by cynic

[Julia]

That's not true. The villain was brown. :P Yeah, I'm keeping my eye on it. Liv went to jail and spent her time there with a horrible caricature of a loudmouth, low class fat black woman who was all attitude and stupidity. The woman kept spouting off at the injustice of her arrest even though from her story, she was clearly guilty of her drug charges and just had a tenuous grasp of double jeopardy or logic in general. Then they had her chanting "Ferguson" like a loon. The whole thing seemed to be a pointed mockery of the idea that there is racial bias in the criminal justice system. I wouldn't be surprised if her name in the script drafts was "Dindu Nuffin". There's no point to her character or any nuance given to her. She's presented as a huge cartoonish joke which culminates in Liv almost eating her which the show seemed to be winking at like it would be funny because she was the worst anyway. There were actually two black women in that episode. The other was a slutty crazy stalker. I don't recall if there have ever been any other black women in the cast, but the black guy seems to be handled okay. I'm not really sure what was going on in this episode.

I thought that character was the worst, and it really surprised me, because Ravi and Clive, the two POC leads, are far and away the most awesome characters in that show. I generally think of it as a fairly positive show.

Edited February 6, 2016 by Julia

[OnceSane]

We have veered off-topic and are topic-adjacent, at best. Please stick to discussing race and gender issues for this show.

[phoenics]

Looks like we were 100% right about Abbie being written as "The Help".  The writers clearly wanted her to be framed that way and made sure she was in death.  I just wanted to point that out - because I do remember a time where we were made to feel as if we couldn't comment on that when we saw it happening (re: mod comments in the what went wrong and other threads).

But welp - the proof is in the finale where they killed Abbie and literally had her say the dialogue proving that to them, she was the help.

Edited September 6, 2016 by phoenics

[topanga]

13 hours ago, phoenics said:

Looks like we were 100% right about Abbie being written as "The Help".  The writers clearly wanted her to be framed that way and made sure she was in death.  I just wanted to point that out - because I do remember a time where we were made to feel as if we couldn't comment on that when we saw it happening.

But welp - the proof is in the finale where they killed Abbie and literally had her say the dialogue proving that to them, she was the help.

I remember your posts, phoenics. I also remember thinking--hoping--that there was no way the showrunners would be dumb enough,  racist enough, or insensitive enough to treat Abbie that way. Sadly, they were indeed all of those things. Your observations and predictions were 100% correct.