Captain America: Civil War (2016)

[Perfect Xero]

On 8/16/2017 at 6:23 AM, scriggle said:

All of this. I want to give this post a million likes.

Plus "Everything special about you came out of a bottle."

Said to Steve, literally, moments after Steve told Tony that he was nothing without his suit and that Tony wasn't a real hero because Tony said he would look for a solution other than killing himself.

And I love Cap's heroic nature, but looking for outside of the box solutions and not jumping straight to, "I'm going to kill myself to save people" isn't a bad thing.

 

On 8/16/2017 at 5:33 AM, Vera said:

Steve was out of the ice for a few weeks, nearly 70 years into the future, he has lost everything he once knew and was being asked asked to fight Aliens. For Steve, World War II was a few weeks before this. I'm hard pressed to fault Steve for being a little testy here. . Tony had lived in this world, he knows it. He has far more information than Steve does at this point. When he first meets Tony, Steve isn't the one making the jibes. Tony is being completely passive-aggressive with the quips about him being spry for an old man and doing time as a capsicle. Remember the 'That's the guy my dad never shut up about? Wondering if they shouldn't have kept him on ice.'. Tony, who is in his 40s, let's his daddy issues take precedence over Steve's trauma, who at this point is a mid-20s war veteran, displaced so far ahead in time. 

Tony made an obvious joke about Steve being spry for an old man? I don't consider that passive aggressive, just a bit awkward.

The line about Howard not shutting up about him came directly after Steve called Stark Tower ugly and insulted Tony by accusing him of only caring about style. They were both being rather dickish to each other (interestingly enough the script describes Steve meeting Tony as Steve "finally meeting his ego match").

The thing is that Avengers itself has 'father issues' (unsurprising for anyone who is familiar with Whedon's work). Steve basically is Howard in Avengers. He's the stern, disapproving father figure who accuses Tony of caring more about style than substance and feels the need to dress down and minimize Tony's accomplishments. Tony acts like the obnoxious smart mouthed son who doesn't show Howard/Steve enough respect. Tony has to prove himself to Steve/Howard in the end (by flying a freakin' nuke into a portal and being willing to die in the process).

Civil War makes the abrupt turn and depicts Steve and Tony as 'brothers' the two sons of Howard Stark, while the Avengers films present Howard and Steve as peers, and makes Steve the defacto stand-in for Howard in his attitude and relationship with Tony.

[scriggle]

13 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Well, it isn't exactly fair to Tony either.

No it's not. Like I said Howard was a shitty father. But that's on Howard not Steve. Tony needs a boatload of therapy to deal his issues caused by Howard. All the fault and blames lies with Howard. I understand Tony displacing his resentment of Howard towards Steve but that doesn't mean it's fair to Steve.

11 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

Tony made an obvious joke about Steve being spry for an old man? I don't consider that passive aggressive, just a bit awkward.

As @Vera noted, Steve had been out of the ice for 2 weeks. Fury finds him in the middle of the night, punching the shit out of heavy bags. And he appears to be fighting off flashbacks. PTSD, anyone? Fury tells him they need him to fight because they lost the tesseract. Steve died to save the world from that. He pointedly tells Fury they should've left it at the bottom of the ocean. All Steve knows about the others is from the files SHIELD gave him. Steve is reading them on the plane with Coulson. The info from SHIELD most likely does not paint Tony in the most favorable light per IM2. Tony has far more information about Steve than vice versa but it's all colored by Howard's veneration.

Calling Steve a "capsicle" is a jibe. It's passive aggressive and insensitive. I'd say the same if someone had made a similar jibe making light of Tony's ordeal in IM1 two weeks after he'd been rescued.

[VCRTracking]

12 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

Civil War makes the abrupt turn and depicts Steve and Tony as 'brothers' the two sons of Howard Stark, while the Avengers films present Howard and Steve as peers, and makes Steve the defacto stand-in for Howard in his attitude and relationship with Tony.

In the Agent Carter series Howard does say about Cap:

 

And later:

"Peg, all I've done my whole life is create destruction. Project Rebirth was— He was the one thing I've done that brought good into this world."

So afterward he probably did speak of Captain America as a creation he i proud of around his actual son when he grew up. And then in Iron Man 2 we have Howard via old film strip telling Tony he is "his greatest creation". but he really should have told them that when he was younger.

Edited August 19, 2017 by VCRTracking

[Cobalt Stargazer]

14 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

Said to Steve, literally, moments after Steve told Tony that he was nothing without his suit and that Tony wasn't a real hero because Tony said he would look for a solution other than killing himself.

And I love Cap's heroic nature, but looking for outside of the box solutions and not jumping straight to, "I'm going to kill myself to save people" isn't a bad thing.

Also? "Is nobody gonna deal with the fact that Cap just said 'Language!'?"

That's a lighter example of the current subject, but there's a reason that people see Steve as some kind of paragon,even if its unintentional on his part. Natasha says that it was quite an event finding him buried in the ice, and that she thought Coulson was going to swoon. While Tony does make sarcastic remarks about Rogers actually being the boss while he does a lot of the "real" work, it isn't entirely not the truth, because the others do follow his lead, particularly Natasha and Sam. "Hey, don't look at me. I do what he does, just slower."

Also squared, its Nat who tells Steve to stay out of the situation with Barnes and not get involved, that she knew what that friendship meant to him but that if he inserted himself into the situation, it would only make things worse. And oh look, it did, but being that maybe Steve sees himself as the one true crusader for the truth, he elected not to listen to that. And for the record, I like Clint more than other people seem to, but blaming Tony for being behind bars at the Raft when he told Natasha that he had retired is just stupid. I get that it probably had to be him to get Wanda out of the compound since they'd bonded and all, but not everything is Stark's fault all the time.

[Wynterwolf]

4 minutes ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Also squared, its Nat who tells Steve to stay out of the situation with Barnes and not get involved, that she knew what that friendship meant to him but that if he inserted himself into the situation, it would only make things worse. And oh look, it did, but being that maybe Steve sees himself as the one true crusader for the truth, he elected not to listen to that. 

My sense on that was that the only thing Steve was thinking about in deciding to go after Bucky was trying to keep Bucky alive.  And secondarily, not getting any one else killed because he knew first hand how dangerous the Winter Soldier was.  I really don't think Steve was thinking of anything beyond that in making that decision... which is both a strength and a weakness, being able to distill the choice down to it's basic element, and not let outside politics, or other people, distract him from his goal, which was 'everybody lives'.  

[stealinghome]

4 hours ago, Wynterwolf said:

My sense on that was that the only thing Steve was thinking about in deciding to go after Bucky was trying to keep Bucky alive.  And secondarily, not getting any one else killed because he knew first hand how dangerous the Winter Soldier was.  I really don't think Steve was thinking of anything beyond that in making that decision... which is both a strength and a weakness, being able to distill the choice down to it's basic element, and not let outside politics, or other people, distract him from his goal, which was 'everybody lives'.

Didn't Steve say something to that effect? Like "I'm the only one who can bring him in and not get hurt?" I seem to remember him saying something like that to Natasha on the phone, but I only saw the movie when it came out so it's been quite a while.

[Wynterwolf]

Yeah, he said "Because I'm the one least likely to die trying."  I... maybe have watched WS & CW a few times recently.  He also said, when Nat commented on this being what she meant by "worse" that, "he's [Bucky] alive."  

Edited August 20, 2017 by Wynterwolf

[scriggle]

45 minutes ago, Wynterwolf said:

Yeah, he said "Because I'm the one least likely to die trying."  I... maybe have watched WS & CW a few times recently.  He also said, when Nat commented on this being what she meant by "worse" that, "he's [Bucky] alive."  

And in context, Sharon had just informed him that the authorities had issued a "shoot on sight" order. Which is a) a pretty extreme thing to do based on some grainy security footage and b) illegal.

Steve's intent was to bring Bucky in alive and protect those sent to kill him. And I believe that is something Steve would do for anyone.

[Wynterwolf]

2 minutes ago, scriggle said:

And I believe that is something Steve would do for anyone.

I'm not so sure about that, I think one of the main reasons he thought he had a better chance of bringing the Winter Soldier in without getting killed is because of how the helicarrier fight ended.  Steve was pretty certain Bucky had pulled him out of the river, and if Bucky had gone back to WS-mode ("if he's this far gone"), then Steve was probably the only person who might have a chance of getting him out of it, or being able to take him out if he couldn't.  And after Sharon gave them the lead, Sam questioned Steve on it and Steve said, "he'd do it for me."  So, I think there were a lot of reasons why this decision was specific to Bucky for Steve.  

[scriggle]

If Steve found out the authorities had issued a "shoot on sight" order on any person, I believe he would intervene to the bring the person in to face justice thru the legal system and not let the person be summarily executed without a trial. To do otherwise would be betraying his morals.

[Wynterwolf]

He didn't hear about the shot to kill order until after he and Sam went to Vienna and he had already had his conversation with Nat.  It was the last thing Sharon told him after she gave him the lead on Bucky's location, so that specific knowledge was't a factor until Steve was already fully committed.  The first thing he says about his motivation is to Nat, when he says he's the least likely to die trying to bring Bucky in.  So I think you can say he thought he'd be able to match him, but from his conversation with Bucky when he see him in his apartment, I think it was because he believed he could reach him, even if he had turned back into the WS:

"You pulled me from the river. Why?"

"I don't know."

"Yes, you do."

[Perfect Xero]

9 hours ago, scriggle said:

No it's not. Like I said Howard was a shitty father. But that's on Howard not Steve. Tony needs a boatload of therapy to deal his issues caused by Howard. All the fault and blames lies with Howard. I understand Tony displacing his resentment of Howard towards Steve but that doesn't mean it's fair to Steve.

As @Vera noted, Steve had been out of the ice for 2 weeks. Fury finds him in the middle of the night, punching the shit out of heavy bags. And he appears to be fighting off flashbacks. PTSD, anyone? Fury tells him they need him to fight because they lost the tesseract. Steve died to save the world from that. He pointedly tells Fury they should've left it at the bottom of the ocean. All Steve knows about the others is from the files SHIELD gave him. Steve is reading them on the plane with Coulson. The info from SHIELD most likely does not paint Tony in the most favorable light per IM2. Tony has far more information about Steve than vice versa but it's all colored by Howard's veneration.

Calling Steve a "capsicle" is a jibe. It's passive aggressive and insensitive. I'd say the same if someone had made a similar jibe making light of Tony's ordeal in IM1 two weeks after he'd been rescued.

Tony makes jibes and comments about almost everyone, which isn't to say that it's not asinine and annoying of him, but it's a pretty big jump to say that his comments about Steve are rooted in father issues, when he calls Thor "Shakespeare in the Park" upon first meeting him and references Banner turning in to a green rage monster.

I don't even think that the comment about Steve being an old man is even intended as an insult or jibe at Steve, it's just ... something that he finds interesting about him. In Tony's head it was probably a good ice breaking joke, both a compliment (he's basically telling Steve that he was good in the fight with Loki) and something that they could talk about. Just like him referencing Banner being the Hulk.

Tony's not particularly good with personal human interactions and Steve is an old man who doesn't have time for jokes and nonsense.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

3 hours ago, Wynterwolf said:

 So, I think there were a lot of reasons why this decision was specific to Bucky for Steve.  

Thank or blame Facebook as you'd like:


If Tony had nothing else right in Civil War, IMO it was that Steve's judgment when it comes to Barnes is askew. Fair enough to say that the loss of Peggy in this movie leaves only Bucky as a link to his past, but its pretty much always been like that, even before Barnes became the Winter Soldier. That he doesn't even recognize Natasha, who he shot not once but twice, pokes a major hole any idea Steve may have had that he could bring Bucky out of his fugue state, and even though they get to the part where Barnes remembers that Cap's mom put newspaper in his shoes, that was after the trance had been broken and he was trapped by the hydraulic lift or whatever it was. So yes, Steve would most likely have done what he did for anyone, but he goes after Bucky specifically because in a very real way Barnes is all he has left of his old self and his old life.

[Wynterwolf]

14 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

If Tony had nothing else right in Civil War, IMO it was that Steve's judgment when it comes to Barnes is askew. Fair enough to say that the loss of Peggy in this movie leaves only Bucky as a link to his past, but its pretty much always been like that, even before Barnes became the Winter Soldier. That he doesn't even recognize Natasha, who he shot not once but twice, pokes a major hole any idea Steve may have had that he could bring Bucky out of his fugue state, and even though they get to the part where Barnes remembers that Cap's mom put newspaper in his shoes, that was after the trance had been broken and he was trapped by the hydraulic lift or whatever it was. So yes, Steve would most likely have done what he did for anyone, but he goes after Bucky specifically because in a very real way Barnes is all he has left of his old self and his old life.

Selfish maybe, but not really askew, since he was right that he had the best chance of reaching him.  Bucky didn't have the lifelong string of memories of Natasha, that he did with Steve.  And Steve did reach him on the heilcarrier, so he had every reason to believe he could again.   Steve never got the chance to talk to him in WS-mode in CW, so he never got a chance to test that hypothesis, but from his brief talk with Bucky at the apartment, and the confirmation that he remembered him in the factory, Steve knew he was being framed, so from that point, I agree... Steve would have supported anyone who was being used like that, but he didn't know that ahead of time.  This being Bucky just added the extra layer.  

Edited August 20, 2017 by Wynterwolf
clarity

[Cobalt Stargazer]

What makes it even more ridiculous is that Howard clearly spent years treating Tony like shit for not being enough like Steve, and if Tony never made an effort to fully apply himself just to please his father, even if he was lazy and irresponsible as a direct response to his dad's endless haranguing, it's difficult for me to entirely hold it against him. Living up to perfection* is an impossible task, and for Tony it must have been adding insult to injury that the man his father basically idolized for all those years would willingly stand in his way defending his killer. I'm not saying he's right, I'm saying I understand.

If nothing else, he seemed to have an okay relationship with his mother, or at least not an openly hostile one. Maria ending up as collateral damage when Howard was murdered could well have been seen as inexcusable, and Tony was already pissed from having to chase Steve and Bucky halfway across the world. Even though he admitted that he knew Barnes was innocent of killing T'Chaka, Zemo's plot to reveal who killed the elder Starks had yet to fully unfold. Steve doesn't want Bucky punished for something he didn't do? Okay, I can roll with that. But the programming that made him kill Howard and Maria was still very much active, and even without being in Winter Soldier mode he was swinging for the fences fighting with people who weren't wearing weaponized suits, to the point that even Cap tells him to dial it back before he kills somebody. We're not exactly talking about someone who is completely harmless.

*I kid about Steve being perfect. Mostly. Natasha asks him in Winter Soldier if her kissing him was his first kiss since 1945, and he says no, but he also steadfastly avoids her attempts to fix him up with a date because his heart still understandably belongs to Peggy. His moment with Sharon aside, he's either unwilling or unable to get involved with anyone as a lark. Not saying that's a flaw, I'm just pointing it out.

[Wynterwolf]

2 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

But the programming that made him kill Howard and Maria was still very much active, and even without being in Winter Soldier mode he was swinging for the fences fighting with people who weren't wearing weaponized suits, to the point that even Cap tells him to dial it back before he kills somebody. We're not exactly talking about someone who is completely harmless.

Not harmless, no, but the programming was dormant until activated.  And they made a pretty clear distinction between Bucky and the Winter Soldier.  The team that came after him in Bucharest were clearly military professionals with full tactical gear so not strictly weaponized (like Iron Man or War Machine), but still heavily armed and appropriate for battle.  And he was going out of his way to disarm and disable.  The one instance that Steve said "C'mon, man" about was where he had two guys on him and was trying to throw one off and that guy is the one that went over the rail in the very tight stairwell, where Steve had to grab him before he got too far.  So yes, that guy would have been collateral damage if Steve hadn't been there, but against a military team that was trying very hard to kill him... I don't think that's any indication that he was out of control, instead I think he was under as tight a control to not kill anyone as he could be under those circumstances.  

 

2 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

I'm not saying he's right, I'm saying I understand.

Re:  Tony - yep, me too.  

[paramitch]

On 2/2/2017 at 11:34 PM, VCRTracking said:

A few days ago I stumbled on an old video of Jerry Orbach singing "Try to Remember"  and thought "I know that song. Where do I know that from?" And looking at other covers of the song  by Julie Andrews and Andy Williams and reading the comments I realized it was from Civil War sung by Tony's mom in the virtual memory. I found an EW.com article on it:

Iron Man mom: Captain America Civil War discussion

"Try to Remember" is one of those theatre tunes that causes me to start sniffling within the first 10 syllables. It's melodically gorgeous, poetic, emotionally complex, and captures that yearning for the first flush of youth and love that are also... irrecoverable. Its use here was really lovely and appropriate (and adds to Tony's emotional response both there and later).

On 8/9/2017 at 7:30 AM, ChelseaNH said:

I thought Ross' statement was stupid because nukes are not autonomous beings.  Things do not go wandering off of their own accord.  Unless they're socks in the dryer, and even then I suspect it was the dryer's idea.

This. Great point about the Accords and what's not logical about them. 

On 8/13/2017 at 3:29 PM, Kel Varnsen said:

Wasn't that the whole point of Iron Man 3? Tony had severe ptsd after the battle of ny because he wasn't any kind of soldier or that kind of thing and had no experience with any kind of actual battle.

 

On 8/15/2017 at 5:10 PM, Dandesun said:

I'd wager that Tony's had PTSD since Iron Man 1 and then the events of the Avengers exacerbated that. PTSD doesn't care if you're a soldier or not. Cap clearly has PTSD when we meet him in the Avengers. He's secluded himself and is having flashbacks. 

Also consider that the official MCU timeline basically puts Cap out of the ice for two weeks before Fury arrived with his docket. Of course Steve is going to join up because that's what Steve does and, also, he has nothing else. It wasn't until Sam in Winter Soldier that anyone asked 'Hey, what makes you happy? What do you want to do?' and Cap can't answer either of those questions. Sam rightly points out that Steve could do whatever he wanted and Steve is at a complete loss because he's got no shred of his life beforehand left to him so why not keep being a soldier?

Tony being a civilian doesn't make his PTSD somehow worse or more damaging than Steve's. Just because you fight in a war doesn't mean you're prepared for the horror of it. Both of those men are suffering, they're just very different people so they handle it in very different ways.

Great posts, both, with valuable points. Tony is not okay. Tony has NEVER BEEN okay since Iron Man. I actually love that about Tony and his story -- for me it's a constant throughline, a constant subtext. Tony has always been winging it. And for me this -- in addition to Iron Man 3 (which I loved, feel free to throw things) -- provided a believable final break. He simply loses it, and he loses it big. No more snark, no more hiding behind his privilege -- he's simply an orphan, and it's powerful. I found Tony really moving and resonant here and that it treated his journey with respect and surprising nuance. (And that's including his complex relationship with Cap and his own father.)

On 8/15/2017 at 5:37 PM, anna0852 said:

And neither of them seems to recognize that the other is suffering. Steve is hell-bent on seeing Tony as irresponsible and Tony still hasn't forgiven Steve for being Howard's favorite.

I agree -- but it's also why I was so incredibly invested here. I thought the film did a great job of showing us both sides and both fatal flaws to the two men spearheading each side. Then you underline that with the real love and respect on both sides and it's truly tragic and upsetting, and filled with tension that feels (to me) earned.

On 8/16/2017 at 10:50 AM, Dandesun said:

Civil War wasn't about Steve choosing his friendship with Bucky over his friendship with Tony... certainly not to me. At least not in a way that was remotely tense in a 'who will he choose' kind of way because there was never going to be a question that it would be Bucky. 

I agree. There's just no comparison. And I think it's actually an example of Tony taking the PR route -- going for the emotional jugular when he himself knows it's not accurate.

On 8/18/2017 at 10:09 PM, Perfect Xero said:

Civil War makes the abrupt turn and depicts Steve and Tony as 'brothers' the two sons of Howard Stark, while the Avengers films present Howard and Steve as peers, and makes Steve the defacto stand-in for Howard in his attitude and relationship with Tony.

Beautiful and subtle distinction. I love the fact that Tony has always viewed Steve as a rival (lovingly or no) while Steve has been oblivious, not weighted with the constant comparison.

On 8/19/2017 at 1:13 PM, Wynterwolf said:

My sense on that was that the only thing Steve was thinking about in deciding to go after Bucky was trying to keep Bucky alive.  And secondarily, not getting any one else killed because he knew first hand how dangerous the Winter Soldier was.  I really don't think Steve was thinking of anything beyond that in making that decision... which is both a strength and a weakness, being able to distill the choice down to it's basic element, and not let outside politics, or other people, distract him from his goal, which was 'everybody lives'.  

I agree, and found it understandable in the moment. Especially given how emotional and fraught Steve's tie to Bucky truly is.

On 8/19/2017 at 6:27 PM, scriggle said:

Steve's intent was to bring Bucky in alive and protect those sent to kill him. And I believe that is something Steve would do for anyone.

I agree -- meaning, anyone Steve felt was being unfairly judged and sentenced. And Bucky is the poster child of this -- Steve knows better than anyone that Bucky doesn't deserve the label/sentence being imposed upon him. He is just another victim.

[Wynterwolf]

Marvel props person just posted this on twitter:

 

 

 

I have never wished I was more tech savvy in my life.  OMG I want to see every single page of this horrible thing!!  

[Dandesun]

I sense that portions of the fanfic community are going to pour over that like whoa. And I'm not angry about it.

Steve going after Bucky in Civil War was explained by him as Steve being the best option to bring Bucky in because he's able to take on the Winter Soldier while a bunch of SWAT guys are not. (The Winter Soldier tore through SHIELD agents like a hot knife through butter in CA: WS on the hellicarrier. If Bucky was back in that mode, those SWAT guys would not have survived. End of story.) But we also all know that Steve wanted to get to him first to see if it was true that Bucky had reverted to WS after being the one to pull Steve out of the Potomac. By that point, Bucky had been underground for a few years and there didn't seem to be any situation that screamed 'The Winter Soldier is cut loose and wreaking havoc everywhere!' He had just disappeared. Except when he needed to buy plums or whatever.

That all being said, it continues to tickle me that Captain America is believed to be this "perfect soldier" when that has never been what he's about. In CA: TFA Dr. Erskine specifically tells him that being a perfect soldier is NOT what he should strive to be... that he should continue to be what he is: a good man. And, also, every single one of the Steve movies have been:

Captain America: The First Avenger

Colonel Phillips: Rogers, don't do the thing.

Steve: I'M DOING THE THING! (To save Bucky!!)

Captain America: The Winter Soldier

Alexander Pierce: Captain, don't do the thing.

Steve: I'M DOING THE THING! (To save Bucky!!)

Captain America: Civil War

Natasha: Steve, don't do the thing.

Steve: I'M DOING THE THING! (To save Bucky!!)

 

Meanwhile, the two Avengers movies thus far have been:

Steve: I'm a man out of time and have very little to live for. Guess I'll fight. And make somewhat alarming quips that suggest I have a death wish.

And Infinity War seems to be:

Steve: I'm so fucking depressed about Bucky in that damned tube I've decided to grow this scorching hot beard and become everyone's Daddy fetish.

I may be a little off about that last one but, let's be real, Chris Evans' beard game is tight.

[Wynterwolf]

The Beard is indeed amazing.  And I just re-watched The First Avenger... Seriously!  Steve has always been a terrible soldier!!  But he's highly successful at being goal oriented, particularly when that goal revolves around Bucky.  But that's also why I really love the idea of stealth!Steve.  

Edited August 31, 2017 by Wynterwolf

[nicepebbles]

Quote

4) Thor? Hulk? Where were these guys? I didn't like that. 

Quote

In story or real world? In the story Thor is an alien who visits Midgard/Earth so there is no reason to always need an explanation of why he is AWOL from The Avengers. At the end of Age Of Ultron Thor left earth and Hulk  left The Avengers in part because The Scarlet Witch was able to trigger "the other guy" beyond his, Bruce Banner's control. To use General Ross's term had a nuclear weapon without a safety as much as The Winter Soldier was for Colonel Zemo. And the Hulk with some control beyond rage monster  took himself out of play in a similar way as Bucky Barnes going into some kind of stasis at the end of the Civil War.

I get those things about them. I still didn't like that they were absent. The story is supposed to be able the Avengers and 2 are missing and they bring in 2 other guys, that I like, but still they aren't Thor and Hulk. It didn't ruin the story for me or anything. 

[Kel Varnsen]

So maybe a dumb question but how did Ant-Man get captured after the airport. After spidey/tony and rhodes knock him down he goes from giant man size to normal size. He was still conscious and Tony was busy dealing with Rhodes. The guy can shrink to microscopic size, so did he just stay normal size and wait for the cops to show up and arrest him? 

[Wynterwolf]

1 minute ago, Kel Varnsen said:

The guy can shrink to microscopic size, so did he just stay normal size and wait for the cops to show up and arrest him? 

I think the implication was that he was physically spent from being Huge Dude, particularly for that long.  He'd said at the beginning that he couldn't hold it that long, and that the first time he'd done it he'd passed out.  So  afterwards, when he flipped his helmet open and asked for orange slices, it seemed like he wasn't physically able to change size any more at that point.  

[Raja]

52 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

So maybe a dumb question but how did Ant-Man get captured after the airport. After spidey/tony and rhodes knock him down he goes from giant man size to normal size. He was still conscious and Tony was busy dealing with Rhodes. The guy can shrink to microscopic size, so did he just stay normal size and wait for the cops to show up and arrest him? 

 

46 minutes ago, Wynterwolf said:

I think the implication was that he was physically spent from being Huge Dude, particularly for that long.  He'd said at the beginning that he couldn't hold it that long, and that the first time he'd done it he'd passed out.  So  afterwards, when he flipped his helmet open and asked for orange slices, it seemed like he wasn't physically able to change size any more at that point.  

Besides he wasn't a spy with contacts able to escape and evade in a foreign country, just an ex con with a suit. Although I do suppose he could have gotten somewhere and put in a call to Hank Pym.

[Kel Varnsen]

23 hours ago, Raja said:

 

Besides he wasn't a spy with contacts able to escape and evade in a foreign country, just an ex con with a suit. Although I do suppose he could have gotten somewhere and put in a call to Hank Pym.

I guess you are right. I mean while he should have been able to get out of that situation at the airport pretty easily, he would really have no where to go, and end up being on the run for as long as the authorities were chasing him. He could probably shrink, get on an airplane and make it back to the US, but then the cops would just pick him up as soon as he goes to see his daughter or Hank or something. That said I would love it if in the Ant Man sequel they make a point of showing how Scott keeps a tiny, microscopic, safe house somewhere that no one would think to look. Like with a tiny fridge and a tiny tv and a tiny stove.

[HunterHunted]

On 9/9/2017 at 9:20 PM, Kel Varnsen said:

I guess you are right. I mean while he should have been able to get out of that situation at the airport pretty easily, he would really have no where to go, and end up being on the run for as long as the authorities were chasing him. He could probably shrink, get on an airplane and make it back to the US, but then the cops would just pick him up as soon as he goes to see his daughter or Hank or something. That said I would love it if in the Ant Man sequel they make a point of showing how Scott keeps a tiny, microscopic, safe house somewhere that no one would think to look. Like with a tiny fridge and a tiny tv and a tiny stove.

Not a safe house, but he does have a tiny prison ironically named The Big House.

http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Big_House

[SimoneS]

I have been thinking about this and have decided that Marvel needs to bring Peggy back. In part, because I adore and miss Hayley Atwell's Peggy, but also because Steve had his best chemistry with her and feels lost without her. They could have a time disruption that brings young Peggy to the future before she marries and has children.  

Edited October 17, 2017 by SimoneS

[HunterHunted]

3 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I have been thinking about this and have decided that Marvel needs to bring Peggy back. In part, because I adore and miss Hayley Atwell's Peggy, but also because Steve had his best chemistry with her and feels lost with her. They could have a time disruption that brings young Peggy to the future before she marries and has children.  

Doctor Strange has the time stone. However, it feels a little cruel because there's no way Steve would be cool with keeping Peggy from her husband and preventing the birth of her children.

[SimoneS]

Just now, HunterHunted said:

Doctor Strange has the time stone. However, it feels a little cruel because there's no way Steve would be cool with keeping Peggy from her husband and preventing the birth of her children.

I didn't know about Strange's time stone, but that is perfect. I agree about Steve which is why the story has to be done in such a way that Peggy is trapped in the future with no way back. How about this;  a Hydra agent steals the time stone to go back into the past to stop Steve and Howling Commander from killing Schmidt and capturing Zola. Steve and Sam go back into the past to stop them. Of course, they are successful, but somehow Peggy accidentally travels back to the future with them and there is no way back. I am confident that Marvel could come up with something much better.

[Perfect Xero]

I don't think they'll bring her back permanently, but I've long suspected that some Hela, Death, and/or Infinity Gem shenanigans are going to provide a temporary return for both Peggy and Howard in Infinity War/A4.

[DeathQuaker]

On 10/15/2017 at 8:59 PM, SimoneS said:

I have been thinking about this and have decided that Marvel needs to bring Peggy back. In part, because I adore and miss Hayley Atwell's Peggy, but also because Steve had his best chemistry with her and feels lost with her. They could have a time disruption that brings young Peggy to the future before she marries and has children.  

Steve so very badly needs to learn to grieve and move on. This is a healthy thing every human being needs to learn to do and he has been denied it, and it's bad for him and the people around him. One universal experience all of us have is experiencing loss. I'd like to see a heroic journey that incorporates coping with that.

Much, indeed, that was powerful about season 1 of Agent Carter was seeing Peggy work slowly through her own grief and move on (and to a lesser extent, see Howard do the same). While I'd give my shirt to see Peggy again (and all I've got to find out what happened to her nemesis Dottie), I would hate to see that marvelous character development undone. I realize what the movie folks may do may not care about what happens in the TV side of the universe, but it would be a serious undercutting of Peggy's character to have her lose her development just to be a crutch, a coping mechanism, a thing for Steve whose indeed at this point presence would probably hold back his character development rather than assist it.

Steve and Peggy had a beautiful relationship, and sometimes beautiful relationships end tragically before their time. Strong people learn to hold dear what they gained from those experiences while also moving forward into the future.

[HunterHunted]

I agree @DeathQuaker. Peggy's grief and struggle to move on was fantastic stuff in Agent Carter. People keep clamoring for Peggy to show up in the modern MCU because they did a crap job setting up Cap and Sharon. He has the hallway scene with Sharon in Winter Soldier, then she reveals herself to be his protection detail, and finally Peggy's funeral. Cap has shared more scenes with Maria Hill. She makes more sense as his modern love interest. A terse "Steven" from Maria Hill during the party at the beginning of Age of Ultron would have communicated that Maria Hill and Cap had dated and it ended badly. But really, the problem with Cap and Sharon is that she absolutely should have been present at that party during Age of Ultron.

The other issue with Cap and Sharon is that it is so freaking weird. They spend almost no time together and she falls for him based on her great aunt's stories. This is weird. Tony grew up with stories of Captain America, but he's not pathologically obsessed with Steve. The fracturing of their "friendship" is one of the central points of Civil War as is Steve's obsession with Bucky. However, at no point does Tony and Steve's relationship feel as phony and forced as Cap and Sharon. I understand why Sharon is into Steve, but why is he into her. They've barely had a conversation. They've talked about laundry, her secretly protecting him, and her dead relative that he was in love with. Great basis for a deep connection.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

1 hour ago, HunterHunted said:

I agree @DeathQuaker. Peggy's grief and struggle to move on was fantastic stuff in Agent Carter. People keep clamoring for Peggy to show up in the modern MCU because they did a crap job setting up Cap and Sharon. He has the hallway scene with Sharon in Winter Soldier, then she reveals herself to be his protection detail, and finally Peggy's funeral. Cap has shared more scenes with Maria Hill. She makes more sense as his modern love interest. A terse "Steven" from Maria Hill during the party at the beginning of Age of Ultron would have communicated that Maria Hill and Cap had dated and it ended badly. But really, the problem with Cap and Sharon is that she absolutely should have been present at that party during Age of Ultron.

I'll take it a step farther than that and say that the MCU could have gone there with Steve and Natasha and it would have been perfectly believable. He and Nat spend a good portion of Winter Soldier together; looking for information after Nick's "death", hiding in plain sight from Rumlow and his goon squad, and surviving being blown up after they find out about Hydra infiltrating SHIELD. Sure, it stands to reason that  Natasha's history, with its numerous cover stories, half-truths,  and outright lies would give a straight-arrow like Steve pause, but that's how you build up a relationship. The establishment of trust between them is another thing Civil War should have delved into, since Nat's decision to sign the Accords when Steve was mostly adamantly against it rivals the eventual split between him and Tony.

Several people have said that they like the idea of Sharon, that Steve finally being able to grieve his losses and then move on with his life would be terrific. I guess that's where I am with it too, but they've done too much of a slapdash job to make it believable for me. Take away the familial relationship with Peggy makes it less weird, maybe, but no less rushed.

[SimoneS]

6 hours ago, DeathQuaker said:

Steve so very badly needs to learn to grieve and move on. This is a healthy thing every human being needs to learn to do and he has been denied it, and it's bad for him and the people around him. One universal experience all of us have is experiencing loss. I'd like to see a heroic journey that incorporates coping with that.

Much, indeed, that was powerful about season 1 of Agent Carter was seeing Peggy work slowly through her own grief and move on (and to a lesser extent, see Howard do the same). While I'd give my shirt to see Peggy again (and all I've got to find out what happened to her nemesis Dottie), I would hate to see that marvelous character development undone. I realize what the movie folks may do may not care about what happens in the TV side of the universe, but it would be a serious undercutting of Peggy's character to have her lose her development just to be a crutch, a coping mechanism, a thing for Steve whose indeed at this point presence would probably hold back his character development rather than assist it.

Steve and Peggy had a beautiful relationship, and sometimes beautiful relationships end tragically before their time. Strong people learn to hold dear what they gained from those experiences while also moving forward into the future.

I am not sure how to put this. I think that is persuasive and strong argument for Steve moving on from Peggy and I don't disagree with at all. If Marvel had given Steve a strong love interest after Peggy, I would totally agree with you. However, Marvel hasn't and Steve is the one Marvel superhero who I think needs a strong love interest to complete him. Maybe it is the poignancy and sweetness in how Chris Evans plays Steve or maybe because he is a man out of his time, but without Peggy, Steve feels unmoored in his movies. Maybe Marvel will figure it out without bring back Peggy, but Sharon is not the way to go. 

[scriggle]

1 hour ago, SimoneS said:

Steve is the one Marvel superhero who I think needs a strong love interest to complete him. Maybe it is the poignancy and sweetness in how Chris Evans plays Steve or maybe because he is a man out of his time, but without Peggy, Steve feels unmoored in his movies. Maybe Marvel will figure it out without bring back Peggy, but Sharon is not the way to go. 

Maybe this is why:

Captain America: Civil War Focuses on the Best Love Story in the Marvel Universe

Quote

But while the romance of Cap and Carter is a thread that persists throughout all three Captain America movies, it's not quite the best Marvel cinematic love story. That belongs to Steve Rogers and Bucky Barnes, The Winter Soldier.

Let's be honest, if Bucky were Becky, there'd be no question of who Steve's love interest was/is/will be. But Marvel/Disney will never go that route.

[Wynterwolf]

Heh... I was just debating whether to post something about the metal-armed elephant in the room.  ;-)

[SimoneS]

2 minutes ago, scriggle said:

Maybe this is why:

Captain America: Civil War Focuses on the Best Love Story in the Marvel Universe

Let's be honest, if Bucky were Becky, there'd be no question of who Steve's love interest was/is/will be. But Marvel/Disney will never go that route.

I never get this. Here is some honesty. Not only is Steve isn't gay, he is in love with Peggy.  Bucky is his best childhood friend. They were not attracted to each other as children and are not attracted to each other adults. The insistence that two men having a strong friendship means that there must be some underlying romance is ridiculous. One day, I do hope that Marvel has a gay superhero, but reconning a major superhero's sexuality is not the way to go.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

19 minutes ago, Wynterwolf said:

Heh... I was just debating whether to post something about the metal-armed elephant in the room.  ;-)

I was waiting for that myself.

And it isn't like I don't get it, but aside from the chemistry between Chris Evans and Sebastian Stan, there's nothing in canon that says Steve pines for Bucky in a romantic sense, or vice versa. Evans has a lot of chemistry with Downey too, and in Age of Ultron it's Natasha who says she thought Cap and Tony were still "gazing into each other's eyes' when he asks her if she wants to go on staring at the wall. I'm pretty sure there are those who would like it a lot less if the movies made Stony canon instead of Stucky, so I don't entirely buy the idea that they're just annoyed that Marvel/Disney won't "let" Steve be gay. It isn't as if either relationship is entirely functional, so it would probably be better to not pursue either one.

[Wynterwolf]

Everyone sees "chemistry" in different things... they're all equal parts of the conversation.  But I'd say Steve would be bisexual or maybe demisexual, not gay. 

It was interesting though, that they lifted a big chunk of Steve and Bucky's plot line for Matty and Elektra in the Defenders.  

Edited October 18, 2017 by Wynterwolf

[Dee]

I thought the Civil War 'love story' was between Steve and Sam.

[SimoneS]

11 hours ago, Dee said:

I thought the Civil War 'love story' was between Steve and Sam.

LOL! Not a lot of calling for a Steve/Sam romance somehow.

[Wynterwolf]

30 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

LOL! Not a lot of calling for a Steve/Sam romance somehow.

The following for that pairing is relatively small, but no less valid to explore.

[Raja]

17 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

I agree @DeathQuaker. Peggy's grief and struggle to move on was fantastic stuff in Agent Carter. People keep clamoring for Peggy to show up in the modern MCU because they did a crap job setting up Cap and Sharon. He has the hallway scene with Sharon in Winter Soldier, then she reveals herself to be his protection detail, and finally Peggy's funeral. Cap has shared more scenes with Maria Hill. She makes more sense as his modern love interest. A terse "Steven" from Maria Hill during the party at the beginning of Age of Ultron would have communicated that Maria Hill and Cap had dated and it ended badly. But really, the problem with Cap and Sharon is that she absolutely should have been present at that party during Age of Ultron.

The other issue with Cap and Sharon is that it is so freaking weird. They spend almost no time together and she falls for him based on her great aunt's stories. This is weird. Tony grew up with stories of Captain America, but he's not pathologically obsessed with Steve. The fracturing of their "friendship" is one of the central points of Civil War as is Steve's obsession with Bucky. However, at no point does Tony and Steve's relationship feel as phony and forced as Cap and Sharon. I understand why Sharon is into Steve, but why is he into her. They've barely had a conversation. They've talked about laundry, her secretly protecting him, and her dead relative that he was in love with. Great basis for a deep connection.

I remember the girl mostly cut out of The Avengers with her wild eyes saying that she was saved, by Captain America. In this world Steve Rogers is a folk hero ideal, as opposed to other MCU women swooning over Thor. A Sharon Carter actually falling for Steve would be sort of the equivalent of Katie Holmes falling for Tom Cruise.

[Dandesun]

14 hours ago, Wynterwolf said:

Everyone sees "chemistry" in different things... they're all equal parts of the conversation.  But I'd say Steve would be bisexual or maybe demisexual, not gay. 

It was interesting though, that they lifted a big chunk of Steve and Bucky's plot line for Matty and Elektra in the Defenders.  

They totally did! When I was watching the Defenders I just sat there going "oh, they're giving us the Steve/Bucky love story but with more acceptable genders." I thought it was hilarious.

Yeah, the Sharon stuff is just not good. There's nothing there that remotely suggests that they are True Love. It's a slap-dash attempt to give Steve his canon love interest despite the fact that Peggy and Bucky are the cornerstones of his life. I mean, the Sharon stuff in the comics leaves a bad taste in my mouth simply because of the 'Oh, Cap can't possibly be with the middle aged woman (since he was only under the ice for 20 years in the comics) so we're going to give him her younger, hotter, blonder sister... okay, now she's the younger, hotter, blonder niece...' I mean, come on!

When the actual people on set refer to Sam and Bucky as 'Cap's two girlfriends' can we damn well acknowledge that Sharon was shoehorned in to make it all 'no homo' already? And as far as the fandom goes, believe me, there is Steve/Bucky, Steve/Tony, Steve/Sam, Steve/Natasha... Steve is the character that launched a thousand ships. And yeah, Winter Soldier catapulted Steve/Bucky into a major thing (after First Avenger it was a niche pairing) but given that Bucky has been the driving force for Steve in his three movies it's not surprising that the sudden Steve/Sharon kiss was greeted with apathy or scorn.

Peggy was allowed closure and she was allowed to move on. Peggy lived her life. I love that we got to see part of that immediately following the war and snippets of her through time as well. Peggy's life didn't end because Cap went under the ice. That is a huge fucking triumph as far as I'm concerned because all too often the love interest gets forgotten as soon as she's out of the hero's immediate circle. Peggy is tremendous and honestly I'd take her reappearance so that Natasha could totally lose her shit in admiration (given Peggy's past with Dottie Underwood are we to believe that the Black Widow program and the Red Room didn't warn their agents about her?), compare notes with her, have Peggy ask Steve and Bucky why they haven't stopped messing around and kissed already, and maybe given the stink-eye to Steve for macking on her niece as well as Sharon for 'taking the hero worship a little too far.' Hell, I want to see Peggy with Tony because given her relationship with Howard and Jarvis you can't tell me that Peggy didn't know young Anthony Stark.

Steve and Peggy's relationship somehow managed to remain sweet and innocent even in the midst of war and I loved their scenes together when she was suffering dementia. I loved how she said he was 'so dramatic' and still encouraged him to keep going, that sometimes all we have left is to start over. But, man, the Steve/Sharon thing in the MCU just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. That he had to ask Sharon if Peggy knew Sharon was monitoring Steve is kinda gross. That Sharon had to say that she didn't want Peggy to have to keep that a secret from him? I mean... can we just admit that the players are a little too incestuous there and call it a fucking day already?

Sharon as a tie to Steve's past through her familial relationship with Peggy could be interesting but not as a love interest. The idea of Steve moving on with the younger relative of his wartime love interest is just... not painting a very good picture of Steve's ability to move on. How much of this is Steve holding onto a Carter? How much of this is Sharon's hero-worship based on sitting at Peggy's knee and listening to her tales of the bygone days?

I'll take Steve and Bucky's co-dependence any day over that. At least it makes sense. Sam, as nice as his meet-cute with Cap was, is way too good for Steve's irresponsible, reckless behavior. Besides, Steve and Bucky are both super soldiers. They don't have to worry so much about breaking the other one. And if they do, they both heal pretty quickly.

And for God's sake let Pepper and Tony reunite already!! It's the only other relationship that got its due in the movies so you could understand why they came together.

Edited October 18, 2017 by Dandesun

[Cobalt Stargazer]

15 hours ago, Wynterwolf said:

Everyone sees "chemistry" in different things... they're all equal parts of the conversation.  But I'd say Steve would be bisexual or maybe demisexual, not gay.

Here's what I'm wondering, though, and I'm not trying to start a shipper war because I can go elsewhere for that.

From a character standpoint, with the baggage of Steve's history with Bucky fully in mind, it seems like it would be very counter-productive in terms of either of them moving on with their lives for he and Barnes to suddenly become a romantic couple. Let's forget all the lost years with Cap under the ice and Bucky running around killing people as the Winter Soldier, although if you add that in they don't really know each other in the present. What they have now is the echo of the friendship that once was, and while that would be fine, if the point is for Steve and Bucky to heal, become whole again, why not take them out of one another's orbits for a bit and see what comes of it? I said in the main MCU thread that I'm not interested in a retread of "Something's happened to Bucky, so now Steve has to run off and save him." It was okay the first couple of times, but now I'm past bored with it. If that's all there is to their relationship in the "present", maybe their paths should diverge just a touch. As @Dandesun said, Peggy was allowed to move on with her life and find happiness, so why shouldn't they?

[Wynterwolf]

2 minutes ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

What they have now is the echo of the friendship that once was, and while that would be fine, if the point is for Steve and Bucky to heal, become whole again, why not take them out of one another's orbits for a bit and see what comes of it? I said in the main MCU thread that I'm not interested in a retread of "Something's happened to Bucky, so now Steve has to run off and save him."

It's a good question, and as I said in the other thread, I agree with you, and I think their relationship in IW will evolve beyond Steve saving Bucky, but who knows how much we'll get to see of that on screen.  But what you see as an echo, I see as a foundation.  

I suspect a sense of duty to help and protect will always come before anything else for Steve, even any romantic entanglements.  Which is partly why Bucky as a romantic partner works really well for me (and why Peggy fit so well with him during the war), because they are both in that together (or will be, once Buck is out of cryo, has his arm back, and isn’t subject to trigger words any more), so 'romance' and duty can be seamlessly intertwined, just as it was with Peggy.  It’s a balanced partnership, which is sexy as hell to me, regardless of the gender of the characters (see also Castle & Beckett, Rick & Evie from the Mummy movies, et al).  

But I think they will both eventually be involved with other characters... Steve has to make up with Tony, and Bucky, since they probably have longer term plans for him, I suspect will be involved with T'Challa and the subsequent Black Panther movies at some point.  

[DeathQuaker]

I'd actually like to see Steve just be single awhile. It's no fun to date a guy who clearly hasn't processed dealing with a number traumas and doesn't even know what makes him happy, so I'd feel sorry for anyone he'd hook up with. They'd have to be more therapist than lover and that's not really fair to a romantic partner. Now, a meaningless tryst to relieve tension, sure, but I'm not sure I'd want to see that with Sharon, Bucky, or anyone else he tends to get paired off with. (Likewise, while obviously he is devoted to Bucky--however you want to interpret that devotion, whether platonically or romantically--Bucky also needs time to figure out who he is before committing to an intense relationship with anyone.)

As for Sharon, she badly needs to be developed as a real human character rather than Blonde Cardboard Cutout Love Interest #13, whether she ends up with Steve eventually or they move away from that. She's one of the comics legacy characters who has been majorly screwed over by her depiction in the MCU and particularly executive meddling in it. The comics version of her has had major importance in Cap Family stories for decades, as important as Bucky and Sam, and yet comparatively she's been majorly given the shaft.  If they weren't going to honor her major role in the Cap Family, they frankly never should have brought her into the MCU to begin with--and were I Emily Van Camp, I'd be ticked off on how marginalized the character is. I understand apparently Winter Soldier was originally supposed to have her as the female lead, but the execs were worried she wasn't "big enough" to put butts in seat so they insisted on Black Widow showing up instead (Scarlett Johannson having a reputation, at least at the time, as a seat-butt-putter-inner). I have honestly conflicting feelings here because Winter Soldier as it was is one of Nat's best films (and I adore Natasha), and yet at the same time, Sharon really should have had a much larger role and we should have known her extremely well by the time Cap 3 rolled around--I talked to a lot of (not necessarily superhero obsessed) folks who saw Civil War and they were like, "Who's that blonde chick? What do you mean she was in Winter Soldier? I don't remember her at all." That blonde chick no one remembers should not be Sharon Carter's role in Cap stories and it's a damned shame they've let it turn out that way.

I feel like I'm being all "BLAH NO ROMANCE" here and it's not really the case. I love a good love story. But I also don't think every hero needs a love interest to have a good story--and the MCU has undercut itself repeatedly by including love interests who are poorly developed; indeed I know part of the reason Peggy gets brought up so much is because she's a rare love interest who was actually well written and well developed. Unfortunately she's also the one love interest who survived, moved on, and got her own potential collection of love interests (in my personal headcanon, she just ends up with ALL OF THEM).  I'd rather have no love story than a bad one, and I'd also like to see people like Steve in particular learn how to be whole complete people on their own and THEN form strong connections with others.

[Wynterwolf]

I'd definitely be happy never seeing Steve kiss anyone during the remainder of his MCU stint... so long as we also got more of him and Bucky working together as they did searching the base in Siberia.  In fact, my preference in this context would probably be 'ambiguous life partners' on screen and continue to let viewers take it where they want.  It’s been a really, really long time since Benton & Ray sledded off into the wilderness together (due South reference). 

[scriggle]

Quote

It’s been a really, reallylong time since Benton & Ray sledded off into the wilderness together (due South reference). 

Bless Paul Gross for giving us that ending.