I Am Cait in the Media

[freeradical]

I am Cait is only a 1 season, 8 episode show. A few people on this thread have given some very enlightening insight as to why she, and her experience so far, is not typical or representative of the transgender community and I understand those points. I did think her admission that she needed help to better represent would elicit more insight but it is now clear some were never planning on a conversation but only a lashing of her. She apparently came out the wrong way, has lived her life the wrong way and continues to do everything wrong. Of course she is not off limits to criticism and scrutiny, these things are part of the conversation. She is flawed, naive, conservative, rich, famous and a bunch of other things. The car accident is totally aside from what the show is about. I also realize the show is a show. Not much organic anything happens but the people are real. To say she should "go away" is exactly what the phobic people are saying. I think if she had obviously transitioned and was hiding and hanging her head that would truly send the wrong message.

Edited August 8, 2015 by barbaralewis

[Kromm]

I am Cait is only a 1 season, 8 episode show. A few people on this thread have given some very enlightening insight as to why she, and her experience so far, is not typical or representative of the transgender community and I understand those points. I did think her admission that she needed help to better represent would elicit more insight but it is now clear some were never planning on a conversation but only a lashing of her. She apparently came out the wrong way, has lived her life the wrong way and continues to do everything wrong. Of course she is not off limits to criticism and scrutiny, these things are part of the conversation. She is flawed, naive, conservative, rich, famous and a bunch of other things. The car accident is totally aside from what the show is about. I also realize the show is a show. Not much organic anything happens but the people are real. To say she should "go away" is exactly what the phobic people are saying. I think if she had obviously transitioned and was hiding and hanging her head that would truly send the wrong message.

Do you really believe transphobia has to be behind those "go away" comments? I'm not sure how it can be said that she's not off-limit to criticism and scrutiny, and in the next breath say that.

 

It's potentially a trigger statement, I get it. Because it can be literally interpreted in quite an ugly way.  But that phrase is VERY standard fare when it comes to people commenting on public figures of all types.  It seems very dangerous to ascribe special meaning to this one instance, just because a tiny minority may mean it in the more explictly transphobic sense (the "out of sight, out of mind, I don't want to see transgender people on TV" sense).

 

I mean the past few weeks a lot of people have been saying "go away Trump". The only phobia being expressed THERE is a fear of an idiot loose cannon winning public office.  Sometimes a "go away" is just a "go away" and not a "I can't stand the very sight of you".

 

As for her admission of needing help, there's the now inherent suspicion that it could be a statement planned to elicit sympathy and a story arc. If she's said it in the midst of a I Am Cait episode, it's instantly suspect. If she's said it elsewhere, perhaps a bit less so, then again reality TV personalities don't always stop their acts when they're off air.

 

As for the "Caitlyn has done everything wrong" positioning?  That's wrong, but so is the idea that people need to just be quiet and give her some kind of break. That's a hard position to sell when new material that makes you wince at best, and toss a middle finger up at the webbrowser at worst, comes out virtually EVERY day. A new dumb public statement made by Cait, a new shopping trip, a new obviously arranged fake award, a new round of rumors about people being hired to play expert/friend on the show, etc. It's VERY unfortunate this series of gaffes, and these indications that this is a person with an agenda, are coming from a high profile transgender person. But it is what it is, and there's just no credence to the idea that Caitlyn went into this with no choice but to do things this way. And saying it SEEMS like a wrong way is not some subtle attack on transgender choice, or saying "there's only one way". Not even close. The wrongs and rights of this are complex and multidimensional. For example, the idea of documenting a transition on TV? Great. Who's debating that? The idea that a celebrity has some traction to get a conservation started?  Great!  The idea that this makes this person a spokesperson or a hero?  Kind of ridiculous. The notion that objecting to a specific person being the representative is saying that you instead expect that person to hide their transition and hang their head in shame?  That's pure hyperbolic exaggeration. There's a vast middle ground where most of the world lives, filled with infinite choices between "hide it" and "exploit it to the max".

 

The fact that there's a conversation going on now is undeniably good. Caitlyn being the mechanism to bring that about is neither good nor bad--it pretty much just IS. But Caitlyn is (or at least SHOULD be) largely incidental to this conversation. A trigger is not a bullet, it's just a trigger.

Edited August 8, 2015 by Kromm

[freeradical]

Kromm~ I don't think anyone on this board is transphobic! Look at the hate she gets on social media, it's horrifying. I have learned from you and others here that there are real issues with her credibility and I see that but I don't see people here recognizing her humanity much. She is flawed (actually I said that and more in my previous post) I also said scrutiny is part of the conversation. Maybe her intent and actions are all suspect, that is yet to be confirmed. I was raised to consider all aspects before making harsh accusations but I am flawed in my "rose colored glasses " attitude. I know that about myself.

Also this topic IS about Cait! If it was only about transgender, I would never have participated, only listened.

Edited August 8, 2015 by barbaralewis

[JacksonOrange]

Just wow.  I just read the quote you provided. What I see is BarbaraLewis saying that people who are saying that they wish she would just go away, now have something in common with the phobic morons.

  -And why on Earth is she not allowed to shop? Has she lost all right to any old damned life she chooses? Caitlyn is not a spokesperson, but she IS responsible for making ME think.

You know, if you don't like being in someone's company, it's most expedient to just remove yourself. You don't really believe that you can "poof! Begone!" someone do you? Some of the differences we need to respect are not pretty, like attention-seeking and vanity. This is a real person who has to live the way she sees fit. You can't just select the differences you want to respect.

 

BTW: The way that you state your opinion is very off-putting, and only a masochist would let you twist their words around and then argue your agenda with you. Maybe I'm being cranky, but you're rubbing me the wrong way.  I don't like the way you just stuffed a bunch of words into Barb's mouth, and then chewed her out.

[millennium]

I don't see people here recognizing her humanity much.

 

 

I suspect that if and when she shows some humanity, people might recognize it.

 

All I see so far is a self-absorbed dilettante and opportunist shamelessly exercising what she believes is her destiny to capitalize on an oppressed segment of society and trying to pass it off as activism. 

Edited August 8, 2015 by millennium

[freeradical]

Do you really believe transphobia has to be behind those "go away" comments? I'm not sure how it can be said that she's not off-limit to criticism and scrutiny, and in the next breath say that.

It's potentially a trigger statement, I get it. Because it can be literally interpreted in quite an ugly way. But that phrase is VERY standard fare when it comes to people commenting on public figures of all types. It seems very dangerous to ascribe special meaning to this one instance, just because a tiny minority may mean it in the more explictly transphobic sense (the "out of sight, out of mind, I don't want to see transgender people on TV" sense).

I mean the past few weeks a lot of people have been saying "go away Trump". The only phobia being expressed THERE is a fear of an idiot loose cannon winning public office. Sometimes a "go away" is just a "go away" and not a "I can't stand the very sight of you".

As for her admission of needing help, there's the now inherent suspicion that it could be a statement planned to elicit sympathy and a story arc. If she's said it in the midst of a I Am Cait episode, it's instantly suspect. If she's said it elsewhere, perhaps a bit less so, then again reality TV personalities don't always stop their acts when they're off air.

As for the "Caitlyn has done everything wrong" positioning? That's wrong, but so is the idea that people need to just be quiet and give her some kind of break. That's a hard position to sell when new material that makes you wince at best, and toss a middle finger up at the webbrowser at worst, comes out virtually EVERY day. A new dumb public statement made by Cait, a new shopping trip, a new obviously arranged fake award, a new round of rumors about people being hired to play expert/friend on the show, etc. It's VERY unfortunate this series of gaffes, and these indications that this is a person with an agenda, are coming from a high profile transgender person. But it is what it is, and there's just no credence to the idea that Caitlyn went into this with no choice but to do things this way. And saying it SEEMS like a wrong way is not some subtle attack on transgender choice, or saying "there's only one way". Not even close. The wrongs and rights of this are complex and multidimensional. For example, the idea of documenting a transition on TV? Great. Who's debating that? The idea that a celebrity has some traction to get a conservation started? Great! The idea that this makes this person a spokesperson or a hero? Kind of ridiculous. The notion that objecting to a specific person being the representative is saying that you instead expect that person to hide their transition and hang their head in shame? That's pure hyperbolic exaggeration. There's a vast middle ground where most of the world lives, filled with infinite choices between "hide it" and "exploit it to the max".

The fact that there's a conversation going on now is undeniably good. Caitlyn being the mechanism to bring that about is neither good nor bad--it pretty much just IS. But Caitlyn is (or at least SHOULD be) largely incidental to this conversation. A trigger is not a bullet, it's just a trigger.

I forgot to mention that you are quite well spoken and I'm realizing it is simply about Cait for me on a pretty basic level. The posts of yours millennium and cosmo are more like having a 200 level college discussion about the politics of the transgender community. I'm still back at a 102 level, being excited that the "in your face" Caitlyn Jenner is forcing the ignorant to look at her.

Edited August 8, 2015 by barbaralewis

[Kromm]

Kromm~ I don't think anyone on this board is transphobic! Look at the hate she gets on social media, it's horrifying.

That's certainly true. But twitter and facebook are the toilet bowl and urinal of the online world (and maybe YouTube comments from non-video makers the bidet). It's different really from here, I expect, because there's a continuity of conversation and an ongoing reputation to be maintained here, even if we're still anonymous.

 

Me personally, I try not to confuse what those folks say with reality.  The festering wound of what people say when half the purpose is "lulz" (look it up if you don't know the phenomenon) is kind of an alternate reality, albeit one that bleeds into the real world a bit more than we'd like these days.  But even with that bleed, most folks still aren't like that for real.

 

Caitlyn Jenner is no evil person who should be destroyed, or tied to a post and pilloried with stones. Not slurred. Nor inherently disrespected merely for existing. 

 

But I can understand rampant dislike. And disrespect based on her positions, deeds, and statements rather than her identity. Because even the fair shot anyone needs runs into the reality (not the reality TV reality) of someone who's doing and saying a lot of nonsense right in the moment, as we're discussing these issues. She's hardly Donald Trump, mind you, but then again who else could be and not implode under the force of their own bluster?

 

I suspect that if and when she shows some humanity, people might recognize it.

 

All I see so far is a self-absorbed dilettante and opportunist shamelessly exercising what she believes is her destiny to capitalize on an oppressed segment of society and trying to pass it off as activism.

I can agree with the second part, but not completely with the first.  Or rather the whole mess with figuring out what's real and not real puts me in a quandary, because I can see the moments where we're supposed to look at an incident and find humanity in Caitlyn, but then yet another bit of news about how upset she is about ratings, or how she carefully hired co-stars to play faux-buddies, comes out and I can't totally tell if my own earlier impressions were steered or not.

 

I suppose we could toss out that old brickbat about how "even Hilter was human", except that cheap joke really contradicts my statements that there's nothing all that bad about Caitlyn Jenner. I like my trigger/bullet analogy better. Someone can cause a series of events to happen without it meaning much more than that. It would be lovely if Caitlyn was more admirable, but does it really matter?  She's just the blunt force propelling this into the public eye. This IS a show about her and a place to comment on her, that's true, so we are, but if people don't like her in particular? Big deal.

Edited August 8, 2015 by Kromm

[freeradical]

That's certainly true. But twitter and facebook are the toilet bowl and urinal of the online world (and maybe YouTube comments from non-video makers the bidet). It's different really from here, I expect, because there's a continuity of conversation and an ongoing reputation to be maintained here, even if we're still anonymous.

Me personally, I try not to confuse what those folks say with reality. The festering wound of what people say when half the purpose is "lulz" (look it up if you don't know the phenomenon) is kind of an alternate reality, albeit one that bleeds into the real world a bit more than we'd like these days. But even with that bleed, most folks still aren't like that for real.

Caitlyn Jenner is no evil person who should be destroyed, or tied to a post and pilloried with stones. Not slurred. Nor inherently disrespected merely for existing.

But I can understand rampant dislike. And disrespect based on her positions, deeds, and statements rather than her identity. Because even the fair shot anyone needs runs into the reality (not the reality TV reality) of someone who's doing and saying a lot of nonsense right in the moment, as we're discussing these issues. She's hardly Donald Trump, mind you, but then again who else could be and not implode under the force of their own bluster?

I can agree with the second part, but not completely with the first. Or rather the whole mess with figuring out what's real and not real puts me in a quandary, because I can see the moments where we're supposed to look at an incident and find humanity in Caitlyn, but then yet another bit of news about how upset she is about ratings, or how she carefully hired co-stars to play faux-buddies, comes out and I can't totally tell if my own earlier impressions were steered or not.

I suppose we could toss out that old brickbat about how "even Hilter was human", except that cheap joke really contradicts my statements that there's nothing all that bad about Caitlyn Jenner. I like my trigger/bullet analogy better. Someone can cause a series of events to happen without it meaning much more than that. It would be lovely if Caitlyn was more admirable, but does it really matter? She's just the blunt force propelling this into the public eye. This IS a show about her and a place to comment on her, that's true, so we are, but if people don't like her in particular? Big deal.

Thanks for your time on this, I did look up lulz, so it sounds like most of this hate talk I see is people going out of their way (like trolls) to say these things? Whew. I have never been on Twitter or Instagram before lurking on Cait's so I didn't realize! Edited August 8, 2015 by barbaralewis

[CousinAmy]

I feel that if we criticize Caitlyn, we will be called transphobic - when we criticize reality TV stars all the time. The K girls probably get the worst of it. Why should Caitlyn be immune? I'm a pretty nice person but sometimes I like to watch television without pity.

[Kromm]

Thanks for your time on this, I did look up lulz, so it sounds like most of this hate talk I see is people going out of their way (like trolls) to say these things? Whew. I have never been on Twitter or Instagram before lurking on Cait's so I didn't realize!

No problem.  As for if people are simply going out of their way to be asses? A lot of them, yes. Being totally anonymous, plus removed from any accountability, allows them to remove any and all filters their mamas and papas taught them to apply.  The sociopaths of our society seem drawn especially to these platforms.

 

A place like this one here though, this board I mean, you can argue strongly, but I think only those who acknowledge the limits of their own observations, get anywhere. In contrast, on Twitter and Facebook it's complete anarchy because you aren't even properly communicating with anybody. You're just shouting out your opinions into the ether, as loud as you can, with no element of a dialogue. So it's not only for the sociopaths, but also the narcissists.

I'm a pretty nice person but sometimes I like to watch television without pity.

In fact, a famous website got named that!!!

[iwasish]

She didn't want Kris involved in her show but blamed Kris for not giving her a heads up that such comments would not go over well with the community? She can't have it both ways.

[Adiba]

I feel that if we criticize Caitlyn, we will be called transphobic - when we criticize reality TV stars all the time. The K girls probably get the worst of it. Why should Caitlyn be immune? I'm a pretty nice person but sometimes I like to watch television without pity.

Me, too. I thought this site was for all sorts of discussion, including snark and criticism, as long as one was reasonably respectful?

Isn't it our right to criticize public figures? It's gotta be in the Constitution somewhere!

[freeradical]

This will be my last post on this topic to avoid back and forth. If the conversation has now turned to if criticizing Cait is okay or not because of my earlier posts RE: social media in general (since clearly some people now responding haven't bothered to read the whole thread) we can get off that now. I repeat myself in saying no one here has demonstrated transphobia at all in my opinion. Cait and her show are not off limits to criticism and snark, nor should they be. These things contribute to the conversation.  However, writing a dissertation of disgust about everything Cait (in a couple of previous posts) is not snark and tends to dominate the 'mood' of the board.

Edited August 8, 2015 by barbaralewis

[HumblePi]

I suspect that if and when she shows some humanity, people might recognize it.

 

All I see so far is a self-absorbed dilettante and opportunist shamelessly exercising what she believes is her destiny to capitalize on an oppressed segment of society and trying to pass it off as activism. 

You hit the nail on the head for many of us in so few words. I think that the majority of the heterosexual community would agree strongly that all people have the right to choose how they live their lives. A proportionately small number of heterosexuals object vehemently, and sometimes violently to people within the LGBT community based solely on religious and personal beliefs. Humans are not nice sometimes and there will always be someone or something to hate on if that's what they want to do.

 

There are approximately 319 million people in the United States. The transgender community represents between 0.2 to 0.3% of our population, or 700 thousand. Whether the remainder of the 318.3 million people agree with Caitlyn Jenner's transition or not, the fact remains that her story is just not what 318.3 million people are interested in for very long. Jenner is viewed by many as a famous man that has been tied in for many years to the Kardashian pop culture and all it represents. Narcissism, extravagance, fame-seeking, privilege and wealth. Simply put, ordinary people just can't relate to Caityn Jenner and for a big network like E! and Cailtyn Jenner herself putting so much money and effort into promoting her 'docudrama' appears to be the main cause for most of the dissension and division amongst people regarding this series.

 

It might be more intriguing to watch a series on E! about the long journey of someone diagnosed with terminal cancer and their struggle to get into a clinical trial which would hopefully prolong their life. Or a series about what we're doing to help prevent the slaughter of endangered species from the barrel of a gun or the arrow from a crossbow of a wealthy Texans or dentist. Even a series about single mothers living in poverty and struggling to pay for food for her children without the help of public assistance would appeal more to the general public, because they can relate to that better than they can relate to Caitlyn Jenner. Maybe a 8-part series about the techniques, alternatives, methods and success stories regarding quitting smoking cigarettes. At least it might save the taxpayers millions of dollars in health care costs and prevent a lot of unnecessary deaths in this country.

 

I think that people just feel that Caitlyn Jenner has crossed a line. We're happy she's happy, and that's should be enough for her and for most of us. People, even transgenders, really don't need to see Caitlyn's long pink chiffon designer dress blowing in the breeze above her multi-million dollar Malibu estate. Ultimately Caitlyn's agenda, dream and focus has been realized. She lived long enough to accomplish a lifelong dream and good for her. But as with Kim Kardashian and her 'Selfish' book, sometime the public just gets repelled and says 'enough'. I truly believe that's what the general consensus among the 318.3 million of us 'others' are thinking.

[Kromm]

I think that people just feel that Caitlyn Jenner has crossed a line. We're happy she's happy, and that's should be enough for her and for most of us. People, even transgenders, really don't need to see Caitlyn's long pink chiffon designer dress blowing in the breeze above her multi-million dollar Malibu estate. Ultimately Caitlyn's agenda, dream and focus has been realized. She lived long enough to accomplish a lifelong dream and good for her. But as with Kim Kardashian and her 'Selfish' book, sometime the public just gets repelled and says 'enough'.

The difficult part to navigate here seems to be that while what you've said makes sense, it also inevitably seems to prompt comebacks like "who are you to say how she lives her life?" and/or "so Caitlyn wants to shop! Shame on you for telling her she can't!"

 

And with respect to those folks, they seem to often miss the point that the objections to Caitlyn aren't ACTUALLY about her life choices, her shopping, her selfies, etc. they're about the presentation of such on a TV program (which employs massive manipulation to boot), as well as a sudden inundation of current pop culture with insistence that Caitlyn is this hero, this spokesperson, this figurehead, and THEN to find out on top of that that a lot of that attention has been bought?  It galls.

 

Caitlyn can do whatever the heck she wants. Buy whatever she wants. Pose for infinite selfies. Heck, who even cares if she appears on TV or not? Far worse people do. As long as we're able to snark, roll our eyes, vent about how fake she is, how ridiculous, and it not be treated any differently than when we do so with any other Kardashian family member. Because they suck. And that has nothing to do with gender issues, or anything else other than them being ridiculous parodies of human beings. Or as the case seems to be, we of course can also ignore them--thus I Am Cait's lousy ratings. Because maybe people WERE hoping for more... and didn't get it.

[CousinAmy]

E! = Entertainment. This is not a network that runs documentaries. They present entertainment. Expecting them to do anything serious or even educational is futile. Not gonna happen. 

 

Just watch, snark, and enjoy. "That's Entertainment!" (Find a video of this song from "The Bandwagon" on youtube.)

[Cosmocrush]

 

Caitlyn & Kris Jenner Feud: ‘I Am Cait’ Star Accuses Ex Of Sabotaging Her New Show

 

http://hollywoodlife.com/2015/08/07/caitlyn-kris-jenner-feud-i-am-cait-conservative-sabotage/

 

 

From the article linked above:

“Caitlyn had no idea that her comments would create such a furor,” the source told Radar. Caitlyn revealed she was a conservative during her Diane Sawyer interview, claiming she “believed in the Constitution.” She reportedly didn’t know that leaning to the right, politically, would be such a problem!

“Not having lived as a member of the LGBT community is definitely hurting her,” the source told Radar. “Caitlyn feels that Kris is media savvy enough to know [that.]” Plus, since I Am Cait is made by the same production team behind Keeping Up With the Kardashians, Caitlyn reportedly thinks that Kris is behind every mistake or error! “[it] only heightens Caitlyn’s suspicions,” the insider told Radar.

 

 

It is a tab so probably all false but VF isn't and in that article Caitlyn was the one that chose the production company and some of the same people from KUWTK.   I might be mistaken but I'm pretty sure Kris didn't and doesn't have anything to do with this show.  I think it's a fake story. 

[millennium]

I don't waste my energy trying to separate truth from fakery when it comes to Jenner and the Kardashians.  Fakery is the coin of their realm.   I believe they are all in cahoots with the paparazzi they pretend to despise and actively feed stories, truthful or not, to the various tabloids.

 

Besides, it's not like there are many reputable news outlets scrutinizing Jenner's antics.   At the moment, I think they're still afraid of looking too closely and finding something rotten (for example, the backroom dealing over the ESPY), because then they'll have to report it and risk reprisals from the Caitlyn Jenner Anti-Defamation League.

 

That will change if Jenner's ratings continue to tank.   As soon as the media senses the public's interest in Jenner flagging, the knives will start to come out.

Edited August 9, 2015 by millennium

[Kromm]

At the moment, I think they're still afraid of looking too closely and finding something rotten (for example, the backroom dealing over the ESPY)

When the SAME thing clearly has happened with The Teen Choice Awards, how deep do you actually HAVE to dig? (admittedly the TCA is even LESS meaningful than the ESPYs--already pretty useless--and it's just a nomination and not a win, but it's still the same press-bait).

 

As for knives coming out?  My one hesitation with that phrase is it sounds like malice is necessary. But it's not. Really it would just be fairness--looking at this objectively instead of the annoyingly subjective way Caitlyn is covered now.

[millennium]

When the SAME thing clearly has happened with The Teen Choice Awards, how deep do you actually HAVE to dig? (admittedly the TCA is even LESS meaningful than the ESPYs--already pretty useless--and it's just a nomination and not a win, but it's still the same press-bait).

 

As for knives coming out?  My one hesitation with that phrase is it sounds like malice is necessary. But it's not. Really it would just be fairness--looking at this objectively instead of the annoyingly subjective way Caitlyn is covered now.

 

Point taken, but who's to say maybe there won't be a bit of malice in the mix?   Reporters don't like to be muzzled.   And right now they are.   The last time I saw a propaganda campaign like this, in which the press, celebrities and everyone else either followed the party line or suffered the consequences was in the early days of the Iraq war.   Remember the shaming of the Dixie Chicks for daring to speak out against George Bush?   Obviously the Caitlyn Jenner situation pales in historical and national significance, but the same mechanisms are in play: voice the unpopular opinion, and you will regret it.

 

As I recall, when the neocon stranglehold finally began to slip, the press came back with a vengeance.   Just saying.

Edited August 9, 2015 by millennium

[Kromm]

Only in THIS world we live in (where rumors are flying around about Caitlyn and Kris basically being at war) would the following be relevant:

 

Kim Kardashian posts selfie with Caitlyn and Kris Jenner

[millennium]

lol, they probably planted the story, then took the selfie.  something for everyone.

[iwasish]

There's very little in the mainstream news and magazines about Caitlyn. She's only mentioned in the "entertainment gossip" segment, generally in connection with something Kardashian related. Will she be on the cover of Good Housekeeping or Redbook in the future? I don't know, but tend to doubt it. I think she's going to become another face on the tabloids with headlines screaming about feuds with family members and those more vocal and visible on the LGBT community.

I tend to think her older kids were smart and realized that the E! Channel reputation and aura will not do anything to advance the cause she is now suddenly so interested in.

It just cheapens it. watching Cautlyn listen to Kylers mom, I got the impression that she couldn't wait to get out of there.

There RV trip was more what she is interested in. Getting attacked by the people at HRC for her socio-economic status got under her skin. She feels she's entitled to what she has, she worked for it and if others want it, regardless if they're LGBT they need to work for it too.

[millennium]

I expect her to show up as a guest judge on Project Runway anytime now.

She feels she's entitled to what she has, she worked for it and if others want it, regardless if they're LGBT they need to work for it too.

 

No amount of work will ever get them what she has, because what she has is in large part due to genetics.   She was blessed and she ought to keep that in mind before pontificating about other people's lives.

Edited August 9, 2015 by millennium

[Cosmic Muffin]

A bit OT, but in regards to feeling like Caitlyn can't be criticized without the critic being accused of transphobia, the Netflix t.v. show Grace and Frankie is about two couples who have been together for decades, but the two male halves of each couple (Martin Sheen and Sam Waterson) have been having an affair with each other for 20 years. They suddenly come out as a couple and leave their wives (Jane Fonda and Lily Tomlin) to openly be together. Of course, this devastates the two wives, and all the children. One of the husbands in particular just wants everyone to move on and accept the men's relationship and stop mourning the devastation wrought by the two marriages breaking up and the deceptions being revealed. The show is really well written, and the characters are all well developed. Everyone else feels like if they are anything less than positive or accepting of the men's relationship they'll appear homophobic, whereas if the men had had  20 year affairs with other women, the children wouldn't be asked to join them all for dinner and be happy for them. I bring this up just to point out the parallels, although of course Grace and Frankie is purely scripted fiction. But so good, and so nice to see these older actresses given a chance to play well written roles. I recommend this show, regardless of how anyone feels about Caitlyn.

[Coffeecup]

A bit OT, but in regards to feeling like Caitlyn can't be criticized without the critic being accused of transphobia, the Netflix t.v. show Grace and Frankie is about two couples who have been together for decades, but the two male halves of each couple (Martin Sheen and Sam Waterson) have been having an affair with each other for 20 years. They suddenly come out as a couple and leave their wives (Jane Fonda and Lily Tomlin) to openly be together. Of course, this devastates the two wives, and all the children. One of the husbands in particular just wants everyone to move on and accept the men's relationship and stop mourning the devastation wrought by the two marriages breaking up and the deceptions being revealed. The show is really well written, and the characters are all well developed. Everyone else feels like if they are anything less than positive or accepting of the men's relationship they'll appear homophobic, whereas if the men had had  20 year affairs with other women, the children wouldn't be asked to join them all for dinner and be happy for them. I bring this up just to point out the parallels, although of course Grace and Frankie is purely scripted fiction. But so good, and so nice to see these older actresses given a chance to play well written roles. I recommend this show, regardless of how anyone feels about Caitlyn.

 

This is the interesting part: "... Everyone else feels like if they are anything less than positive or accepting of the men's relationship they'll appear homophobic, whereas if the men had had 20 year affairs with other women, the children wouldn't be asked to join them for dinner and be happy for them..."

 

That's a double standard. In real life, when a married man cheats with a woman, the woman is called all sorts of names:  whore, skank, husband-stealer, golddigger. Back in the old days these women were called homewreckers. Just look at one current scandal, where Ben Affleck is being accused of cheating with his children's nanny. Everybody is denigrating the nanny, and calling Ben names too. But when a man married to a woman is secretly gay, he cheats with a man, and then leaves his wife for the man, all of a sudden the public attitude is supposed to change. We're supposed to celebrate the cheating husband because "he's being true to himself" and "he came out of the closet."  The abandoned wife is supposed to grin and bear it. Furthermore,  no one criticizes the man the husband cheated with (the cheatee?) or calls him skank, husband-stealer, or anything negative like that.

 

I think cheating is cheating, regardless of your sexual orientation, and it's wrong no matter who does it or why they did it. They violated their partner's trust, and possibly also exposed their innocent partners to STDs. If married people -- straight, gay, bi or trans -- want to seek sex outside the marriage, they should get a divorce first. The "cheatees" should be equally subject to criticism for participating in the adultery, regardless of their gender or orientation. No one should be called "phobic" for criticizing a cheater/cheatee.

 

Well, does any of this apply to Cait and Kris Jenner? Probably not, if we are only talking about cheating. Although there are many rumors that Kris cheated when she was married to Robert Kardashian, I haven't heard rumors that she cheated while married to Jenner, or that Cait cheated on any of the three wives. My point is that if we're going to judge people for their actions, no person should be exempt from criticism because of their gender or orientation.

Edited August 9, 2015 by Coffeecup

[CousinAmy]

Only in THIS world we live in (where rumors are flying around about Caitlyn and Kris basically being at war) would the following be relevant:

 

Kim Kardashian posts selfie with Caitlyn and Kris Jenner

According to the article, the selfie was taken in order to boost her votes for the Teen Choice Awards!

I wonder if this is the show where the winners get covered in green slime? Keeping my fingers crossed for the win!

[JacksonOrange]

 

No amount of work will ever get them what she has, because what she has is in large part due to genetics.   She was blessed and she ought to keep that in mind before pontificating about other people's lives.

I have to disagree on you with that assumption,  RE:  genetics. She was most definitely not blessed, in that department. You must know nothing about her training before the Olympics, not to mention the drive she always had and always will have. This is not your example of superior genetics, this is an example of an exceptional person.

    I really don't understand the way you're bringing genetics into this, this is a person who's "genetics" forced her to have to take hormones to get things right. "Genetics"? You're selling EVERYBODY short.

[millennium]

I don't know why you're bringing height into this.

Edited August 9, 2015 by millennium

[iwasish]

I saw the clips of Caitlyn being confronted  by Kim and Khloe.. first just watching this group of women with perfectly coiffed hair and makeup on their botoxed faces and over plumped lips, cracked me up. They were all over twitter and the news oohing and aahing over how great and beautiful she looked, when did the two dolts finally read the article and decide they didn't like what she had to say?  I can just imagine Kim trying to sound out the words in that article, actually I bet she never read it, Kris probably went crying to her about what a meanie Caitlyn was.

 

Let Kris fight her own battle, stay the fuck out of it. You didn't want Caitlyn meddling in your love lives so stay out of hers.

 

The fact is the Kardashian kids are not her biological children.. even they are starting to make that clear. Her concerns should be Kendall and Kylie and she and Kris should deal with that. Kim Khloe and the others  should butt out. 

[iwasish]

Well, Cait has been doing a pretty horrible job of parenting Kendall and Kylie. But that aside, I don't see the bond between step-parent and step-child that way at all; it's not something that ends upon divorce like flicking a light switch. Many step-parents regard their step-children with the same love that they regard their own children. Cait was married to their mom for 24 years.

Regarding Kendall and Kylie Caitlyn has done a piss poor job in the last several years in particular, But if you look back at early seasons you can see that once the show took off and Kris really became a player in Hollywood, she over ruled or allowed the girls to disregard any form of discipline Cait tried to enforce.

Regarding the step parent/child dynamic, every family is different. Once my father is gone, I consider my relationship (what little there is) with his wife to be over.  

Obviously the K kids have had Cait in their lives for a long time and there is a strong bond. But the bond Kris has on them is much greater, she has crippled them in a lot of ways and she uses tears and woe is me to get sympathy. Caitlyn has a lot of resentment stored up in her and she doesn't accept criticism well. She has a huge ego and thinks an I'm Sorry solves everything. Just her posture in the scenes with Kim and Khloe shows that she is very defensive, much like she was when Brody tried to talk about his feelings of abandonment and she cut him off and told him to get over it. So much of this show is faked and scripted its hard to tell what's is the truth, you'd think there would be more emotion from the girls but Kim has that totally flat affect.

I don't know that the relationship will be totally severed, but I really don't see her being a big part of their lives anymore outside of functions that affect their younger sisters. I mean they had hardly anything to do with him in the year or year and a half he spent in Malibu.

 

Oh and Kim quoting Cait saying that Kendall and Kylie were a "distraction" and that she didn't know how they would take that... I think she might have been thinking that if K & K were a distraction. just what did she consider the Kardashian kids to be?

Edited August 14, 2015 by iwasish

[Artsda]

 

The fact is the Kardashian kids are not her biological children

That doesn't matter to Caitlyn at all or never did in the past before. She raised them from in some cases toddlers, she loves them like her own (better than her own). Even in the last episode regarding the swimsuit, she said it would be something that more suited "my daughter, Kimberly," Not my  stepchild or former stepchild.

Edited August 14, 2015 by Artsda

[Taylorh2]

I don't really have a problem with Caitlyn being on the list for a  #SocialMediaQueenTeen Choice Award.  Like her fellow "nominees" I'm guessing Caitlyn has a large teenage audience [thanks to KUWTK] and she has said that's the segment of the community she was most interested in helping.  In that respect, I think it's fine but I'm not sure how effective she will be but then I'm not a publicist either.  

 

I don't believe for one sec that Caitlyn Jenner  has a "large teen" audience followers. Why in the hell would teens give *2 shits* about 65 yr old Caitlyn Jenner ?

Edited August 14, 2015 by Taylorh2

[Taylorh2]

I feel that if we criticize Caitlyn, we will be called transphobic - when we criticize reality TV stars all the time. The K girls probably get the worst of it. Why should Caitlyn be immune? I'm a pretty nice person but sometimes I like to watch television without pity.

 

TOUCHE !!

[iwasish]

That doesn't matter to Caitlyn at all or never did in the past before. She raised them from in some cases toddlers, she loves them like her own (better than her own). Even in the last episode regarding the swimsuit, she said it would be something that more suited "my daughter, Kimberly," Not my  stepchild or former stepchild.

Clearly things changed. Since Caitlyn moved out of the Calabasas house, ALL of her children have been guilty of spending very little time with her. She commented on it often and the response was usually "oh you're so far away, it takes too long to get here"  but it boiled down to   they didn't want to be out in the boonies with no paparazzi and no cameras and no fans to run screaming when they get sighting of them. I also think Caitlyn's rebonding with her 4 other kids was an issue. Yeah they talk big with the I love my all my brothers and sisters crap but the older four, or at least the 3 older guys, don't have the same level of affection for the step siblings that they have for the younger half sisters. And they've only developed a relationship with them in the last several years ( one that Kris kind of frowned on).

 

I'm sure that Cait still loves them and they her, but I don't see the relationship as ever being the same.  

 

Divorce changes a lot of things, loyalties, emotions and history are all mixed together and sadly sides are chosen, it's difficult not to, especially since I think Kris is playing on the girls sympathy and wanting the attention back on her. That is why I suspect that Kim and Khloe made the first trips out to confront Cait and that left room for the dramatic meeting of Cait and Kris (ratings above all else!!)

 

I really felt for Kendall when she was in Paris for Fashion Week and Kris decided to invite herself along. Kendall saying that her career and travel  are what is giving her the strength to deal with (or to not think about) all the turmoil in her family. Yet Kris is too needy to see that. I'm guessing that a large part of Kylie's relationship with Tyga may be an attempt to distract herself f from all this or perhaps even to push her folks into putting aside their own interest and start acting like the parents they should have been over the last several years. Good Luck with that Kylie, Caitlyn is too caught up in her own life and mom is too busy being a player in Hollywood.. you are on your own.

Edited August 14, 2015 by iwasish

[Cosmocrush]

I don't believe for one sec that Caitlyn Jenner  has a "large teen" audience followers. Why in the hell would teens give *2 shits* about 65 yr old Caitlyn Jenner ?

Well that was something I assumed  because she is Kendall and Kylie's Dad but I don't think you are wrong.  I know my own 15 year old niece and her friends could not care less about Caitlyn Jenner outside of Kendall and Kylie. 

Edited August 14, 2015 by Cosmocrush

[CousinAmy]

Kim, Khloe and to a lesser extent Kourtney are still on magazine covers and the talk of gossip sites. Caitlyn knows that they have a huge fan base so of course they are on this show to pull some of the fans over. After all, it's the same production company.

As for not visiting during the year of surgeries and hormone infusions, I think Cai t was probably not in the best of moods most of the time. She isn't the most pleasant person now.

[millennium]

I kind of cringe at Jenner actively stumping for the title of Teen Choice Social Media Queen.

 

http://twitter.com/Caitlyn_Jenner/status/631938691208863744/photo/1

 

(originally seen in this article: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/5-things-we-cant-wait-to-see-at-the-teen-choice-awards/ )

 

Ironically, the Teen Choice Awards will air Sunday night at 8 pm. placing it in direct competition with Jenner's own ratings-starved reality show.

Edited August 15, 2015 by millennium

[Kromm]

I kind of cringe at Jenner actively stumping for the title of Teen Choice Social Media Queen.

 

http://twitter.com/Caitlyn_Jenner/status/631938691208863744/photo/1

 

(originally seen in this article: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/5-things-we-cant-wait-to-see-at-the-teen-choice-awards/ )

What's the sense in NOT stumping for something where either people don't care you "bought" the nomination/refuse to believe you did, or where they likely already concluded you had even before said stumping, and were already disgusted with you?  It doesn't make anything worse.  Caitlyn long past has shown she's buying recognition, plaudits, and press.

 

Also, to be fair, that photo is SO over the top, one could argue it's supposed to be coming off as self-mockery. Of course if I were a teen I'd be kind of insulted that some old lady (or rather her crack P.R. team) thinks this is what Teens respond to.  It may be over the top, but it's also so faux-"young" in it's approach, it's kind of an unintentional insult.

[millennium]

What's the sense in NOT stumping for something where either people don't care you "bought" the nomination/refuse to believe you did, or where they likely already concluded you had even before said stumping, and were already disgusted with you?  It doesn't make anything worse.

 

I would have thought she'd act her age at least (and by that I mean like a grown-up) -- do the obligatory selfie, say thank you for the nomination, etc., then go on with her life and whatever happens happens.

 

Does she truly need another dubious award win so badly?  

 

I just find it unseemly.

 

At the same time, I hope she continues on her present course because it undermines her credibility as a spokesperson for anyone,  except maybe the rich and self-absorbed.

 

(Do you really think she's going to win?)

Edited August 15, 2015 by millennium

[freeradical]

Okay we dislike the Kardashians, I mean I do, a lot! We accuse KUWTK of being fake, because it is! But that doesn't jive with basing evidence that Caitlyn is a bad parent with evidence gathered by watching KUWTK!..or the freaking tabloid news!

AND the teen choice awards? Talk about #whocares! Yay! I have achieved snark!

Edited August 15, 2015 by barbaralewis

[TomGirl]

I am watching both "I Am Cait" and "I Am Jazz" and it's quite a contrast. At 14, Jazz shows more character and maturity than Caitlin.

Edited August 15, 2015 by TomGirl

[Kromm]

At the same time, I hope she continues on her present course because it undermines her credibility as a spokesperson for anyone,  except maybe the rich and self-absorbed.

What credibility?

 

Seriously. At this point I think most of us realize we've been part of a real world version of "The Empress Has No Clothes". The only difference being that unlike that story, the lesson instead seems to be that in the real world, a certain percentage will never see the nakedness (or deny it eternally). 

[itainttippithebird]

Have y'all seen this post by Jennifer Boylan on the show so far? I really enjoyed it and she responds to a lot of themes that have come up here: http://www.jenniferboylan.net/2015/08/14/jenny-boylan-on-caitlyn-jenner-the-big-dress-theory/

[millennium]

Aside from the author's writing style, which is very engaging, I didn't like it much.  It contains some valid points, like there's no right or wrong way to transition.    But overall the author's viewpoint seems to be that criticism of Caitlyn Jenner is in the eye of the beholder, rather than the result of Jenner's words and actions.   In my opinion, it seems like Boylan might be trying to insulate her reputation after participating in this farce.    Makes me wonder what's yet to come.

[Kromm]

Aside from the author's writing style, which is very engaging, I didn't like it much.  It contains some valid points, like there's no right or wrong way to transition.

The way I like to think of it is that there's no right or wrong way to transition, but there ARE right and wrong ways to be a human being (and I'm not referring to their sexuality or their gender preference). What seems to happen in Caitlyn's orbit, because she's become a touchstone, is that comments inferring the second thing get twisted as if people are actually saying the first thing.

the author's viewpoint seems to be that criticism of Caitlyn Jenner is in the eye of the beholder, rather than the result of Jenner's words and actions. 

You're probably right. She's doing damage control here, IMO.  I mean we can't know for sure, but it certainly SEEMS like it.

That doesn't mean there isn't a lot of value in her blog post. There's plenty. It's just the parts that go on about how she was wrong about Caitlyn and how wonderful she is that I'm dubious about. I mean what else is Boylan going to say? That she worked with a shallow creep? Of course not.

[itainttippithebird]

I especially appreciated this bit of they Boylan pience:

 

"Anyway, anyone who feels that somehow Caitlyn Jenner–or any transgender person– doesn’t fit into their special 'theory' of the world might want to spend a little less time working on their special theory and instead ask, How can I ease other people’s suffering?  How can I make the world a little more of a loving place? If your special theory of gender–or anything for that matter– doesn’t reduce suffering or create a world more full of love, it might be worth asking whether what you really need is a new theory."

[millennium]

I'd be more interesting in the article that she would've written had she not been a part of the show.

 

I agree.    Any hope of objectivity goes right out the window when you read things like this:

 

to my surprise, Caitlyn Jenner won me over. There are a lot of things I can say about her, but I can say this above all: she is a good soul, with an earnest, heartfelt desire to help the world. She is doing this by using her own celebrity to shine a light on the experiences of transgender people, including plenty of people whose stories are very different from her own.

 

Just touch the hem of Caitlyn's dress and all your troubles will be cured.

[freeradical]

Have y'all seen this post by Jennifer Boylan on the show so far? I really enjoyed it and she responds to a lot of themes that have come up here: http://www.jenniferboylan.net/2015/08/14/jenny-boylan-on-caitlyn-jenner-the-big-dress-theory/

Thank You!

[iwasish]

Loved Kims solution to family strife is a tweet.

The Kardashian mentality is put on a united front in public just to maintain the pretty family picture.