A Place For Questions & Educational Links

[Jeanne222]

Ok since there are NO dumb questions...I don't watch the show.  Just commercials.  Is Jazz a boy turned girl or a girl wanting to be a boy?  TIA

[Crazy Bird Lady]

For Jeanne222: Jazz was born with male genitalia, but has been living as a girl since a very young age and never developed sexually as a boy.

Now that she has finally had "bottom surgery," biologically and legally she is a girl, soon to become a young woman (when she has her next birthday). 

Edited February 27, 2019 by Crazy Bird Lady

[PrincessPurrsALot]

To clarify further, Jazz had male genitalia at birth.  As noted in the master mod note for the forum, she was, is and shall be a girl/woman regardless of genitalia.  Her gender is female.  She was/is female regardless of her genitals.  Jazz recently had gender confirmation surgery which allows her genitals to match what is expected for her gender.  She also took hormones which allowed her to develop other physical characteristics such as breasts.  

[MissTeacher13]

3 hours ago, PrincessPurrsALot said:

To clarify further, Jazz had male genitalia at birth.  As noted in the master mod note for the forum, she was, is and shall be a girl/woman regardless of genitalia.  Her gender is female.  She was/is female regardless of her genitals.  Jazz recently had gender confirmation surgery which allows her genitals to match what is expected for her gender.  She also took hormones which allowed her to develop other physical characteristics such as breasts.  

I apologise if this question is in poor taste, but why is the surgery referred to as Gender Confirmation Surgery? Shouldn’t it be Sex Confirmation Surgery? Genders in our western society represent social and cultural differences yet the surgery changes genitalia to that of the opposite sex.

[gingerella]

On 2/27/2019 at 8:17 PM, MissTeacher13 said:

I apologise if this question is in poor taste, but why is the surgery referred to as Gender Confirmation Surgery? Shouldn’t it be Sex Confirmation Surgery? Genders in our western society represent social and cultural differences yet the surgery changes genitalia to that of the opposite sex.

I believe it is because the surgery is confirming the gender that the person in question has always felt they really are. So in Jazz's case, she has always felt she was a girl in the wrong body, so the surgery is confirming the gender she's always felt she should have been. Does that make sense?

[MissTeacher13]

1 hour ago, gingerella said:

I believe it is because the surgery is confirming the gender that the person in question has always felt they really are. So in Jazz's case, she has always felt she was a girl in the wrong body, so the surgery is confirming the gender she's always felt she should have been. Does that make sense?

I understand what you’re saying but gender isn’t a “real” thing. It works in relation to social and cultural differences of the sexes, not biological ones. Sex however is a real thing and unless for a chromosomal reason, is linked to genitalia/sex organs. Sex Confirmation Surgery sounds more accurate as there is a change in sexual organs which correspond to the sexes. 

[kicotan]

1 hour ago, MissTeacher13 said:

I understand what you’re saying but gender isn’t a “real” thing. It works in relation to social and cultural differences of the sexes, not biological ones. 

I hate to admit it, but this right here^^^^has been a big stumbling block for me.

I’m an amateur costume designer and the history of garments is something I really dig.  Socially acceptable/encouraged styles change dramatically over time~men used to wear powdered wigs, make-up, lace ruffles, heeled shoes, stockings, ribbons and bows, corseted undergarments, etc.~ so what I perceive as a social or cultural phase, as a costumer, is something that I’ve struggled with to understand as a foundation for an individual’s identity.

Jazz, as well as the show, has promoted the idea that we should accept folk for who they are.  I’m all for it.  But if you accept yourself and others for who they ARE, then why is there such a desire/need to change one’s appearance from who they are when they wake up in the morning to fit a societal image of not who they are, but what they “should” look like, according to social pressure?  It presents as an illogical conundrum to me, personally.

ETA:

I also suffer from Body Dismorphic Disorder, so I have a basic understanding of being emotionally disturbed by looking in the mirror/focusing on specific body parts that cause discomfort/wishing for some sort of corrective surgery.  However, any “help” I’ve ever received to address it was adamant that giving in to the “corrective procedures” I dreamed about was counterproductive to accepting myself as I am...not what I perceive myself to be.

Edited March 5, 2019 by kicotan
Forgot to add potentially relevant info

[MissTeacher13]

10 hours ago, kicotan said:

I hate to admit it, but this right here^^^^has been a big stumbling block for me.

I’m an amateur costume designer and the history of garments is something I really dig.  Socially acceptable/encouraged styles change dramatically over time~men used to wear powdered wigs, make-up, lace ruffles, heeled shoes, stockings, ribbons and bows, corseted undergarments, etc.~ so what I perceive as a social or cultural phase, as a costumer, is something that I’ve struggled with to understand as a foundation for an individual’s identity.

Jazz, as well as the show, has promoted the idea that we should accept folk for who they are.  I’m all for it.  But if you accept yourself and others for who they ARE, then why is there such a desire/need to change one’s appearance from who they are when they wake up in the morning to fit a societal image of not who they are, but what they “should” look like, according to social pressure?  It presents as an illogical conundrum to me, personally.

ETA:

I also suffer from Body Dismorphic Disorder, so I have a basic understanding of being emotionally disturbed by looking in the mirror/focusing on specific body parts that cause discomfort/wishing for some sort of corrective surgery.  However, any “help” I’ve ever received to address it was adamant that giving in to the “corrective procedures” I dreamed about was counterproductive to accepting myself as I am...not what I perceive myself to be.

Thank you for your response. I completely agree. I’m not sure if we’ll be ‘allowed’ to continue this conversation here. I’m happy to chat to you privately if you wish. I’m sending you positive thoughts on your journey 😇

[TwirlyGirly]

21 hours ago, MissTeacher13 said:

I understand what you’re saying but gender isn’t a “real” thing. It works in relation to social and cultural differences of the sexes, not biological ones. Sex however is a real thing and unless for a chromosomal reason, is linked to genitalia/sex organs. Sex Confirmation Surgery sounds more accurate as there is a change in sexual organs which correspond to the sexes. 

19 hours ago, kicotan said:

I hate to admit it, but this right here^^^^has been a big stumbling block for me.

I’m an amateur costume designer and the history of garments is something I really dig.  Socially acceptable/encouraged styles change dramatically over time~men used to wear powdered wigs, make-up, lace ruffles, heeled shoes, stockings, ribbons and bows, corseted undergarments, etc.~ so what I perceive as a social or cultural phase, as a costumer, is something that I’ve struggled with to understand as a foundation for an individual’s identity.

Jazz, as well as the show, has promoted the idea that we should accept folk for who they are.  I’m all for it.  But if you accept yourself and others for who they ARE, then why is there such a desire/need to change one’s appearance from who they are when they wake up in the morning to fit a societal image of not who they are, but what they “should” look like, according to social pressure?  It presents as an illogical conundrum to me, personally.

ETA:

I also suffer from Body Dismorphic Disorder, so I have a basic understanding of being emotionally disturbed by looking in the mirror/focusing on specific body parts that cause discomfort/wishing for some sort of corrective surgery.  However, any “help” I’ve ever received to address it was adamant that giving in to the “corrective procedures” I dreamed about was counterproductive to accepting myself as I am...not what I perceive myself to be.

I'm going to take a stab at addressing the issues brought up in these two posts, and others quoting them with similar content.

Full disclosure: I am not transgender, I don't know anyone personally who is, nor am I a member of the LGBTQ+ community. I do have a visible physical disability and use a wheelchair for mobility, so I have an interest in people who are likewise navigating the world with differences that impact their ability to participate in society and to be perceived as being "normal". So, I've done considerable research on gender dysphoria over the past few years and have spoken with many people online who are transgender.

It isn't true that the concept of gender isn't a real thing, or that it's a social construct.

During fetal development, the external genitalia and reproductive organs form in the first trimester. All embryos are female; certain hormones delivered at specific times and in the right amounts have to activate the Y chromosome for a male's genitalia/reproductive organs to form normally. 

In the second trimester, those same hormones must activate again - also at the right time and in the right amounts - to sexualize the brain. This is what gives us the sense of our own gender - male or female.

In the laboratory, in mouse models, researchers have been able to pinpoint at exactly which point in mouse gestation this occurs, and it's a very narrow window (3-4 days, IIRC).

It's logical, then, to consider gender as something hardwired into our brains (although more difficult for those of us whose gender and assigned sex at birth match to understand).

I suspect within the next ten years or so, issues with prenatal hormones occurring at different points in pregnancy will be identified as the cause of homosexuality, gender dysphoria, etc.. Whether there will ever be a "cure" or even if there should be is for the people affected (the LGBTQ+ community), and medical ethicists, to decide - not me.

As for the question of whether the surgical procedures should be referred to as "sex" or "gender" confirmation, I'll defer to an expert, Dr. Loren S. Schechter, who writes, in part:

"For more than 11 years, I have performed gender confirmation surgery as part of my surgical practice. I call it 'gender confirmation surgery' because I believe that out of the myriad labels I’ve heard for the procedure — 'sex reassignment surgery,' 'gender reassignment surgery,' and 'sex change operation,' to name but a few — none is as accurate when it comes to describing what is actually taking place as 'gender confirmation surgery.'

For me, most if not all the other names used for the procedure — or, more accurately, the family of procedures — suggest that a person is making a choice to switch genders. From the hundreds of discussions I’ve had with individuals over the years, nothing could be further from the truth. This is not about choice; it’s about using surgery as one of the therapeutic tools to enable people to be comfortable with their gendered self.

Merriam-Webster’s defines 'confirmation' as follows: 'confirming proof; corroboration; the process of supporting a statement by evidence.' That said, if such surgery helps confirm the way a person feels he or she was meant to be, shouldn’t the name reflect that truth?"

Now, as to why the treatment for someone who is experiencing body dysmorphia is different from an individual experiencing gender dysphoria.

Body dysmorphia (Body Dysmorphic Disorder - BDD) is an anxiety disorder that causes sufferers to have a distorted view of their body generally, or specific features of their face/body.

Gender dysphoria Gender dysphoria is a medical condition in which a person experiences discomfort or distress because there is a mismatch between their biological sex and gender identity.

Now, I apologise in advance because this is going to sound very awkward, but I can't think of a different way of phrasing it to get the point across:

When someone has BDD, usually they are seeing things that aren't there. Maybe when they look in the mirror, they see a freakishly huge nose, or thighs so wide they don't think they'll be able to fit through a normal width door. But to the rest of the world looking at them, these features fall within completely normal ranges.

Those that have gender dysphoria are seeing things that are there, but shouldn't be. They're female, but they look down and see dangly bits, or vice-versa; male and see breasts and a vulva.

Surgical intervention for those who have BDD doesn't work, because what they see in the mirror doesn't reflect reality. Even if the nose was made smaller, or the thighs were liposuctioned into oblivion, they would still perceive those features as being huge after surgery.

Surgical intervention for those who are gender dysphoric does work, because once the stuff they do have is replaced with what they should have, their brains and body are in alignment. 

Note: A lot of what I wrote at the beginning of the post is material I've learned from the many peer-reviewed, scientific studies published in mainstream scientific journals I've researched over the years. Normally I would have provided links to the studies in the post, but they're bookmarked/saved on my laptop. And guess what happened to my laptop recently? So...until I get a new laptop, unless I can find the links using my phone, I can't provide them. I'll edit this post to include them if I can.

Edited March 6, 2019 by TwirlyGirly

[Muffyn]

Adding to the above, the argument of gender as a social construct was posited prior to much of the research on gender's impact on the brain.  I would now pose it as many supposed gender-based behaviors are a social construct.  Within our society, there are behaviors we expect of men and women.  These are societal norms that are not carried across all societies.  Many people have argued against these societal norms, especially given how many of them have been used to hold women back.  The ideas that all women should want children; women are only sexual when in love and/or women only want sex if there is a material benefit offered (money, status, security); women are more emotional/cannot control their emotions; women are the homemakers; women love to shop; women care about their appearance; women are competitive with each other to compete for men; etc. 

Similarly boys don't cry; all men want sex all the time; men are into sports/athletic; men do not want to take on childrearing, nurturing or caring tasks; men are slobs who need to be taken care of; etc.   

There are societies in which these beliefs do not track against gender.  They are not hard-coded.  There are gender differences shown in the brain.  These differences do not necessarily generate the behaviors our society expects. 

And are all people are not the same.  As new views see gender as more of a bimodal distribution, so too are people challenging the idea that specific behaviors, likes and dislikes should be associated solely with a person's gender.  If we allow for variation within behaviors and accept them as part of the norm rather than outside of the norm, fewer people will feel ostracized or as if they are somehow wrong in who they are.

Note, this is not to say that correcting societal expectations of gender-based behaviors will end having transgender persons.  Absolutely not.  Transgender is rooted in the brain and body.  Transgender people have always existed and will continue to exist as will people with other variations. We're all part of one big complex world in which we try to put everyone into distinct boxes only to have many people sitting outside those boxes looking in.  

[TwirlyGirly]

@Muffyn

I agree (but don't see a need to quote your entire post 😉).

There is a difference between gender non-conforming, and gender dysphoria. In the case of gender non-conforming and gender dysphoria, children often exhibit opposite-sex gender-based behaviors (which I believe are a social construct).

But there's an additional "layer" with children who are gender dysphoric; they insist they are the gender opposite the one assigned at birth, whereas children who are gender non-conforming often say they "wish" or "want" to be the gender opposite the one assigned at birth.

This is often based on their belief there are "boy" toys and activities, and "girl" toys and activities, and they are naturally inclined to an interest in those things society has deemed appropriate for a child of the gender opposite the one the child was assigned at birth.

Unfortunately, some "researchers" conflate children who are gender non-conforming based on their behaviors with children who are gender dysphoric. I scare quote "researchers" because they belong to a small, but very vocal, subset of the psychological/medical community who doubt the existence of gender dysphoria as a real diagnosis, and who ignore/discount the vast amount of research published on the diagnosis and treatment of gender dysphoria.

Because children who are gender non-conforming often "desist" (IOW, no longer say they wish they were the gender opposite the one assigned at birth) when they get older, by conflating the two diagnoses they can claim children will "grow out of" these issues with the right therapy.

This is just as harmful to those who are gender dysphoric as "conversion" therapy is to those who are gay.

[Muffyn]

@TwirlyGirly we are in agreement.  I was trying to explain where the idea of gender as a social construct comes from without conflating it with discussions of people being transgender.  Two separate items.  I think that is also where many laypersons struggle because it is so hard to explain how you know you are the gender that you are so we tend to focus on what are perceived as gendered looks or behaviors.  As you say, unfortunately some studies conflate this also.  It also makes us need really specific language that can be very hard to maintain. 

I do like your equating discussions of gender as a social construct with gender non-conforming since that is often based on ideas of how people in given genders should look and/or behave.   

Edited March 6, 2019 by Muffyn

[MissTeacher13]

@Muffyn and @TwirlyGirly thanks for your input. 

[gingerella]

3 hours ago, MissTeacher13 said:

@Muffyn and @TwirlyGirly thanks for your input. 

Ditto you both, great explanations!

[kicotan]

21 hours ago, TwirlyGirly said:

During fetal development the external genitalia and reproductive organs form in the first trimester. All embryos are female; certain hormones delivered at specific times and in the right amounts have to activate the Y chromosome for a male's genitalia/reproductive organs to form normally. 

In the second trimester, those same hormones must activate again - also at the right time and in the right amounts - to sexualize the brain. This is what gives us the sense of our own gender - male or female.

First off, thank you for your very informative response!

Pertaining to the above quoted portion, I’m unfortunately personally aware of hormonal influence in vitro.

My brother and I are both DES son/daughter.  Our mother was injected with the synthetic estrogenic equivalent of about 35,000 doses of today’s low dose birth control pills during our respective 8-9 month gestation periods in the early to mid 60’s.  It changed the physical structure of my reproductive organs including initiating pre-cancerous cells in my cervix by the time I was 19.  I’ve had, and continue to have, all the extreme symptoms of what women go through during pregnancy since puberty, even after they removed my pre-cancerous cervix, abnormally shaped uterus, twisted necrotic right Fallopian tube and cyst ridden right ovary at the age of 25.

Due to my own struggles with severely whacked out estrogen levels in vitro, I am always fascinated by recent developments and research regarding it, so again, thank you for your input.

[K1210]

Since gender is a social construct, why do the Jennings say Jazz is transgender because as a child she liked pink, heels, dresses, and other "girly" things? I am in no way saying that she's not! But perhaps Jazz said she wanted to be a girl because she enjoyed the toys and clothes that her sister played with and wore.

Edited March 8, 2019 by K1210
Typo

[gingerella]

39 minutes ago, K1210 said:

Since gender is a social construct, why do the Jennings say Jazz is transgender because as a child she liked pink, heels, dresses, and other "girly" things? I am in no way saying that she's not! But perhaps Jazz said she wanted to be a girl because she enjoyed the toys and clothes that her sister played with and wore.

Have you watched the show from the beginning? I ask only because from the get go Jazz has always said she ‘has a girl brain in a boy body’.  To me, and I assume to professionals, that goes well beyond just liking girly things. Also, she would not have been cleared for bottom surgery, which isnt exactly reversible, if there was any doubt. 

[K1210]

Yeah, I have watched it from the beginning... Just thinking. I believe she does want to be a girl. But I read a lot about how many kids with body dysphoria "grow out of it" so to speak by puberty. Again, not all.

[Bastet]

51 minutes ago, K1210 said:

why do the Jennings say Jazz is transgender because as a child she liked pink, heels, dresses, and other "girly" things?

They don't.  They say she is transgender because she is; from the time she's been able to express herself, she has referred to herself as a girl and thus asked why her body looked like a boy's, and she was identified as dealing with gender dysphoria.  Liking some stereotypically "girly" things is just part of her personality, as is liking some stereotypically masculine things (e.g. soccer), as is the case with any woman, cisgender or transgender.  Assigning gender to those interests is what is a social construct.  Having a female brain in a male body is entirely different, and is that which makes her transgender.  Even the most-extreme version of what you're referencing is gender non-conforming, not gender dysphoria.

6 minutes ago, K1210 said:

I believe she does want to be a girl.

She is a girl.  Always has been.  She's just transgender rather than cisgender.

[gingerella]

1 hour ago, K1210 said:

Yeah, I have watched it from the beginning... Just thinking. I believe she does want to be a girl. But I read a lot about how many kids with body dysphoria "grow out of it" so to speak by puberty. Again, not all.

I see. Yeah, this topic is really complex and sometimes it seems like each person has their own set of rules, terms, etc. And if I think about it too much, I can see why there are so many questions and what if’s...

[CousinAmy]

What is a "female brain," though. From the beginning, she was attracted to the sparkly stuff, very childish and superficial. As a 3 year old, she obviously couldn't describe what her definition of being a woman is, but has she ever really expressed anything besides "having a vagina"?

[MissTeacher13]

1 hour ago, CousinAmy said:

What is a "female brain," though. From the beginning, she was attracted to the sparkly stuff, very childish and superficial. As a 3 year old, she obviously couldn't describe what her definition of being a woman is, but has she ever really expressed anything besides "having a vagina"?

I don’t think we’ll ever be able to know without getting into stereotypes.

[Muffyn]

11 hours ago, K1210 said:

Yeah, I have watched it from the beginning... Just thinking. I believe she does want to be a girl. But I read a lot about how many kids with body dysphoria "grow out of it" so to speak by puberty. Again, not all.

The studies that supposedly show kids growing out of body dysmorphia that has them wanting to be another gender have been shown to be conflating two different conditions: 1) transgender kids who state they ARE a gender different than what they were assigned at birth, and 2) kids who state I WANT to be.  Many children try out the other gender at different times in childhood.  This can be expressed in asking to be called a different name, hanging out more with kids of that gender, dressing differently, etc.  It is very common.  It is also much more common for girls to state they want to be a boy than for boys to state they want to be a girl.  These kids are not transgender nor do they have body dysmorphia related to gender.  These are the kids that "grow out of it." 

Jazz has consistently stated she is a girl/female.  I think the difficulty for folks who are not transgender is we have likely never had think about why we are the gender we are.  Our genders have been confirmed for us from birth through subtle messages and some rather strong ones.  If anything many of us at different times may have struggled against stereotypes of how we are supposed to be, but we have not questioned whether we are what we are. For transgender kids and adults, it is more than how you are telling me girls/boys act doesn't match who I am or I want to wear different clothes.  It is a sense that this gender is not who I am. 

Where this gets most difficult is that TV focuses on the outer things, clothes and bodies.  There is no good way to show the inner issues.  Also, we typically only see transgender folks who are physically transitioning.  The vast majority of transgender people do not physically transition to the level that we are shown on TV.  And the vast majority trans women who undergo surgeries, etc. do not dress to feminine extremes.  Much like cisgender women, transgender women present themselves in all different kinds of ways.  

[Twopper]

1 hour ago, Muffyn said:

Jazz has consistently stated she is a girl/female.  I think the difficulty for folks who are not transgender is we have likely never had think about why we are the gender we are.  Our genders have been confirmed for us from birth through subtle messages and some rather strong ones.  If anything many of us at different times may have struggled against stereotypes of how we are supposed to be, but we have not questioned whether we are what we are.

That, for me, is a very good explanation.  

On 3/6/2019 at 11:03 AM, TwirlyGirly said:

During fetal development, the external genitalia and reproductive organs form in the first trimester. All embryos are female; certain hormones delivered at specific times and in the right amounts have to activate the Y chromosome for a male's genitalia/reproductive organs to form normally. 

In the second trimester, those same hormones must activate again - also at the right time and in the right amounts - to sexualize the brain. This is what gives us the sense of our own gender - male or female.

In the laboratory, in mouse models, researchers have been able to pinpoint at exactly which point in mouse gestation this occurs, and it's a very narrow window (3-4 days, IIRC).

I had a terrible time for a while trying to figure out the statement from the FTM in the family about having a "male brain" as opposed to a "female brain."  That is because I never thought of my brain as male or female, it was just "my brain."   I think this ties in perfectly with the above quote.   I would expect eventually there may be some type of medical cure for this, but probably not in my life time.  It seems like a medical fix to match genitals and brain would be a better choice than all this surgery and opposite sex hormone treatment and puberty blockers rendering people infertile.       ( I realize many trans people skip the surgery and puberty blockers are fairly new)

[possibilities]

I think Jeannette said very early in the series that she told Jazz it didn't matter, that girls and boys can both do anything (so she was actively trying to undercut that girls = pink + dolls while boys = blue + trucks) and it wasn't about that.

[K1210]

7 hours ago, Muffyn said:

Jazz has consistently stated she is a girl/female.  I think the difficulty for folks who are not transgender is we have likely never had think about why we are the gender we are.  Our genders have been confirmed for us from birth through subtle messages and some rather strong ones.  If anything many of us at different times may have struggled against stereotypes of how we are supposed to be, but we have not questioned whether we are what we are. For transgender kids and adults, it is more than how you are telling me girls/boys act doesn't match who I am or I want to wear different clothes.  It is a sense that this gender is not who I am. 

Where this gets most difficult is that TV focuses on the outer things, clothes and bodies.  There is no good way to show the inner issues.  Uhh

Thank you. That gave me another perspective on this.

2 hours ago, possibilities said:

I think Jeannette said very early in the series that she told Jazz it didn't matter, that girls and boys can both do anything (so she was actively trying to undercut that girls = pink + dolls while boys = blue + trucks) and it wasn't about that.

I didn't know that; I guess I forgot. Thanks!

--------

I wasn't trying to argue that Jazz isn't transgender.. I was legitimately confused. Thanks for y'all input.

[spacefly]

Question for anyone that can give me some insight, My nephew (18yo) just let me know that the person he is now in a relationship with is a transgender male. It is confusing to me in that he wears "female" style clothing, the teenage girl uniform of leggings, Ugg boots and oversized sweatshirts. He close crops his hair and has a female voice. I know at this point he has a lot to figure out so I get that, I am getting better with pronouns too. My nephew is confused and asked me if I thought he (the nephew) was gay and I said only he really know, I asked him if he has ever had any attraction for another boy and he said no. I told him I think he is pan sexual and loved the person before he worries about gender and that I thought it was a pretty amazing thing. Did I tell him the correct thing? He is close with parents and they are very accepting but seems to tell me all his inner stuff. We live in an area where it really isn't a big deal either. I just want both of them to have amazing lives and live genuine lives.

[TwirlyGirly]

49 minutes ago, spacefly said:

Question for anyone that can give me some insight, My nephew (18yo) just let me know that the person he is now in a relationship with is a transgender male. It is confusing to me in that he wears "female" style clothing, the teenage girl uniform of leggings, Ugg boots and oversized sweatshirts. He close crops his hair and has a female voice. I know at this point he has a lot to figure out so I get that, I am getting better with pronouns too. My nephew is confused and asked me if I thought he (the nephew) was gay and I said only he really know, I asked him if he has ever had any attraction for another boy and he said no. I told him I think he is pan sexual and loved the person before he worries about gender and that I thought it was a pretty amazing thing. Did I tell him the correct thing? He is close with parents and they are very accepting but seems to tell me all his inner stuff. We live in an area where it really isn't a big deal either. I just want both of them to have amazing lives and live genuine lives.

Pansexual seems to "fit" for right now, based on what you've told us - if he (your nephew) needs to label himself. Of course, he's young - he, and his relationships (romantic and otherwise) will change, grow, and evolve. 

BTW, can I nominate you for the Best Auntie Ever award? Your nephew is a very lucky young man to have you by his side as he navigates this time in his life!

44 minutes ago, 17wheatthins said:

Can I just drop in to say the conversations going on in here have given my so much hope and love for humanity? 

Yeah, this is a pretty cool group, innit? 💖

[spacefly]

Quote

BTW, can I nominate you for the Best Auntie Ever award? Your nephew is a very lucky young man to have you by his side as he navigates this time in his life!

Thank you so much. I have no children of my own and am very close to each and every one of my ten nieces and nephews. I will nominate his same aged cousin, John (Sr High school) for best cousin ever, John's GF is good friends with the nephew in question and the cousins are close but different schools. John's GF told him what was going on and John wanted to support him. John stopped by the house to take him out for burgers but the nephew in question wasn't home John came back around 10pm and took him for ice cream. I don't know what was discussed but I know John was sympathetic and supportive and left my nephew in good spirits. I am so very proud of my nephews.

I do love the fact that his older 20 year old brother comment when his mom told him about the nephew in question's partner. The 20 year old shrugged his shoulder and said "he seems nice enough, if he likes him he likes him"....bragging on my good kids.

[gingerella]

14 hours ago, spacefly said:

Thank you so much. I have no children of my own and am very close to each and every one of my ten nieces and nephews. I will nominate his same aged cousin, John (Sr High school) for best cousin ever, John's GF is good friends with the nephew in question and the cousins are close but different schools. John's GF told him what was going on and John wanted to support him. John stopped by the house to take him out for burgers but the nephew in question wasn't home John came back around 10pm and took him for ice cream. I don't know what was discussed but I know John was sympathetic and supportive and left my nephew in good spirits. I am so very proud of my nephews.

I do love the fact that his older 20 year old brother comment when his mom told him about the nephew in question's partner. The 20 year old shrugged his shoulder and said "he seems nice enough, if he likes him he likes him"....bragging on my good kids.

You ARE an awesome aunt!

[TwirlyGirly]

A short video I found at BBC.com called "My Transition From Female to Male" , made by a young man who transitioned at the age of 25. 

I think this shows that those who transition FtM after puberty often have an easier time passing than those who are MtF and wait to transition (for whatever reason) until after puberty.

Testosterone does a good job of adding male features to a female body; estrogen doesn't work well to take away male features from a male body (but adds some female features to that body).

[Love2dance]

7 hours ago, TwirlyGirly said:

A short video I found at BBC.com called "My Transition From Female to Male" , made by a young man who transitioned at the age of 25. 

I think this shows that those who transition FtM after puberty often have an easier time passing than those who are MtF and wait to transition (for whatever reason) until after puberty.

Testosterone does a good job of adding male features to a female body; estrogen doesn't work well to take away male features from a male body (but adds some female features to that body).

That was very interesting. And I agree, the change female to male does seem somewhat easier. Especially if it is started after puberty.

[TwirlyGirly]

8 hours ago, Love2dance said:

That was very interesting. And I agree, the change female to male does seem somewhat easier. Especially if it is started after puberty.

Yeah. Facial hair can do a lot insofar as disguising a more "delicate" jawline, for example.

Many of the visible changes a male body goes through during puberty are skeletal. For example, broadening of the shoulders, hands and feet, widening of the jaw. Whereas the visible changes a female body goes through primarily involve muscle and fat distribution.

Muscle and fat distribution will change with hormones, but bones won't get smaller.

Apparently, though, adding testosterone to a female body after puberty will allow (maybe limited?) growth to the skeletal system to make it more masculine in appearance. I didn't know that, but he did mention in the video his shoulders were broader! 

[possibilities]

From what I've heard, the bottom surgery issues are more difficult for FTM.

[gingerella]

13 hours ago, possibilities said:

From what I've heard, the bottom surgery issues are more difficult for FTM.

I can imagine...making a functioning penis compared to inverting one into a vagina, I can't even fathom how they do that.

[TwirlyGirly]

On 3/16/2019 at 1:46 AM, possibilities said:

From what I've heard, the bottom surgery issues are more difficult for FTM.

18 hours ago, gingerella said:

I can imagine...making a functioning penis compared to inverting one into a vagina, I can't even fathom how they do that.

Very difficult!

In my posts, I was referring to the parts of the body usually visible in public.

Gender confirmation surgery for trans men is very complicated.

There are two different procedures used:

The first, metoidioplasty, is the less invasive of the two but doesn't result in what most would consider a "normal" penis in terms of appearance or sexual function.

Phalloplasty does result in a penis that appears to more closely resemble an "average" penis that can be used for both urination and sexual function (without ejaculation, though). However, the number and severity of possible complications is much higher for phalloplasty.

Scrotoplasty may be done after (or in conjunction with) either metoidioplasty or phalloplasty. With scrotoplasty, the labia majora are used to create a scrotum, into which prosthetic testicles are inserted.

I'm sorry I only provided links to the metoidioplasty and phalloplasty procedures, and didn't include summaries; they're very complicated surgeries and rather than risk having something "lost in translation", I think it best for anyone interested to read the links in their entirety themselves.

There are many links with descriptions of FtM gender confirmation surgeries online. I chose Wikipedia because I think it gives the best overview of the available procedures, how they're performed, risks and complications, etc..

Edited to add: In order to attain erections, men who have phalloplasty will also need a penile implant (these are the same types of implants sometimes used in men who have erectile dysfunction not resolved by other methods, such as medication, and men who are paraplegic or quadraplegic). 

I found a good link explaining the different types of penile implants and how they work HERE.

Edited March 17, 2019 by TwirlyGirly

[PupCal]

On 3/8/2019 at 12:43 PM, Twopper said:

It seems like a medical fix to match genitals and brain would be a better choice than all this surgery and opposite sex hormone treatment and puberty blockers rendering people infertile.  

The surgery and hormone replacement therapy are the medical fix.

[MissTeacher13]

On 3/7/2019 at 1:03 AM, TwirlyGirly said:

Note: A lot of what I wrote at the beginning of the post is material I've learned from the many peer-reviewed, scientific studies published in mainstream scientific journals I've researched over the years. Normally I would have provided links to the studies in the post, but they're bookmarked/saved on my laptop. And guess what happened to my laptop recently? So...until I get a new laptop, unless I can find the links using my phone, I can't provide them. I'll edit this post to include them if I can.

 I was wondering if you had the names of these studies? I have googled but can’t seem to find anything a) recent and b) that agrees with this opinion. I’m posting this publicly in case someone else is interested as well. 

Edited May 2, 2019 by MissTeacher13
Just in case work stalks me

[Twopper]

On 3/20/2019 at 9:06 PM, PupCal said:

The surgery and hormone replacement therapy are the medical fix.

Maybe I didn't word my comment to be clear that while the current medical fix is hormone replacement and surgery, my hope is that in the future as science advances there might be a better and easier way.   I have no clue as to what that might look like. 

[PupCal]

20 hours ago, Twopper said:

Maybe I didn't word my comment to be clear that while the current medical fix is hormone replacement and surgery, my hope is that in the future as science advances there might be a better and easier way.   I have no clue as to what that might look like. 

Okay but you said you hoped there was a way to match genitalia to brain and that the HRT/surgery was unnecessary/ potentially harmful. The medical fix for transgender folks is HRT and/or surgery. Science advances will most likely be better surgery options not your plan to "fix" us.

[Twopper]

1 hour ago, PupCal said:

Science advances will most likely be better surgery options not your plan to "fix" us.

I would hope for that as an option as well.   I have a trans family member.

[TwirlyGirly]

On 4/28/2019 at 12:30 AM, MissTeacher13 said:

 I was wondering if you had the names of these studies? I have googled but can’t seem to find anything a) recent and b) that agrees with this opinion. I’m posting this publicly in case someone else is interested as well. 

No.... unfortunately, all of the studies were saved on my now-defunct laptop.

Because your post didn't make clear the parts of my post you're asking for the studies to confirm, here are some suggestions. Google:

all human embryos female 

human gestation genitalia development

human gestation sexual differentiation of the brain

human gestation role of SRY gene in XY 

All of these suggestions should yield results which include links to studies addressing your questions.

Edited to add:

When I was scrolling up to read my post you enquired about, I saw that you had participated in the discussion about "female brains" vs "male brains" and what that means. I happened across another discussion about this concept elsewhere online, and someone commented:

"Without looking at or touching your privates, do you know what your gender is? How?"

Something to think about, eh?

Edited May 7, 2019 by TwirlyGirly

[MissTeacher13]

10 hours ago, TwirlyGirly said:

No.... unfortunately, all of the studies were saved on my now-defunct laptop.

Because your post didn't make clear the parts of my post you're asking for the studies to confirm, here are some suggestions. Google:

all human embryos female 

human gestation genitalia development

human gestation sexual differentiation of the brain

human gestation role of SRY gene in XY 

All of these suggestions should yield results which include links to studies addressing your questions.

Edited to add:

When I was scrolling up to read my post you enquired about, I saw that you had participated in the discussion about "female brains" vs "male brains" and what that means. I happened across another discussion about this concept elsewhere online, and someone commented:

"Without looking at or touching your privates, do you know what your gender is? How?"

Something to think about, eh?

Thanks for the search suggestions. I’ll keep digging! That quote is interesting because I don’t personally identify with a gender, I have a sex. When I was pregnant I did so much research on embryos and the growth process, so I find the whole concept of early development fascinating. It also helps that I have a degree in my field of passion. Thanks again for your response. I appreciate people who look at forums when the show is in hiatus 😂