Gender In the DC Universe

[Guest]

Didn't Barry Allen cry in nearly every episode of The Flash this year? No one's commenting on that. Except for me, obviously, because SO. MUCH. CRYING.

 

 

According to the haters, Barry had every reason to cry and Felicity didn't. They might as well have said that it's okay because Barry has a dick. I mean really.

[wingster55]

I've seen Barry get the crying complaint.

Why bring him up though? Doesn't validate or not validate Felicity's tears.

[tangerine95]

I've seen Barry get the crying complaint.

Why bring him up though? Doesn't validate or not validate Felicity's tears.

Because most of the same people who complain about Felicity crying have no problem with Barry doing the same.It seems like a double standard.I don't need to validate Felicity's crying,IMO she had every reason to cry.Its not that big a deal as people are making it to be and asking EBR about it in every interview as if that was all she did.

I had no problem with Barry crying either,its just how he deal with his emotions same as Felicity.But when people use it as a problem with her but not with him thats when it annoys me.

Edited July 16, 2015 by tangerine95

[dtissagirl]

If it weren't for the gross internalized sexism -- if the harshest criticism towards Felicity is that she cries too much? That's so easy to fix it's almost laughable.

Edited July 16, 2015 by dancingnancy

[NoWayOut]

They both cried but the number of complaints about Felicity crying eclipses the Barry complaints. I would probably have to go deep sea fishing to find a complaint about Barry whereas there's a good chance I could click onto any of the current Arrow related articles and see someone belittling Felicity for her tears.

[Guest]

They both cried but the number of complaints about Felicity crying eclipses the Barry complaints. I would probably have to go deep sea fishing to find a complaint about Barry whereas there's a good chance I could click onto any of the current Arrow related articles and see someone belittling Felicity for her tears.

 

Exactly. And why is that? The double standard is the issue here, not their tears. It's just so sad how prevalent it is.

[manbearpig]

I don't really have anything to contribute, but I think this is an interesting conversation because usually people seem to be more accepting of women crying, for whatever reason.

[AyChihuahua]

I think she cried or did cry voice too much. I can't compare her to Barry, because I skipped lots of Flash episodes. But yeah, I think she cried just a couple too many times.

[dtissagirl]

I don't think anyone's denying that she cried a lot. The problem is fandom and media making an issue of a woman crying,  when in this same universe there's this dude who also cries a lot, but nobody asks Grant Gustin about it, or complains to the producers about it at the press line at SDCC, or writes articles about it.

 

Furthermore, the fact that Felicity was crying all the time is symptomatic of Arrow spending S3 basically getting off on delivering misery porn. And that was NOT Felicity's fault. They made a choice to go grimdark and then used Felicity -- who is an audience avatar if I ever saw one -- as the person who would carry the burden of reacting to that. But nobody in the media is trying to unpack that shit.

Edited July 16, 2015 by dancingnancy

[Chaser]

I don't really have anything to contribute, but I think this is an interesting conversation because usually people seem to be more accepting of women crying, for whatever reason.

I think in society that is true, but not in media. I watched the woman who kick ass panel at comic con and they commented that a 'strong' woman is typically viewed as someone who is physical and can throw punches. It's seen as growth. Look at Game of Thrones. Arya is viewed as the stronger of the Stark daughters and Sansa is viewed as the weak, whiny one. Both reprensent a different strength, both play the game to survive, but to the fans it was cut and dry who was strong and who was weak.

 

With man it's different. Society says they have to be strongth, so in the media when they show vunerablity its praised as growth. 

 

I have had a lot of issues with Felicity this season. I wish she didn't cry as much. But the reasons for crying were valid, so I blame the writers for basically sucking.

[Delphi]

I do think she cried too much, so does Emily, and I agree Barry did as well. But honestly many of the times they felt so moving to me. Felicity crying alone in the Foundry was amazing. Barry in the finale.

I don't actually mind the crying all to much. People cry in real life. And these people don't have great lives, I would probably be crying a lot more if my friends were constantly dying or getting attacked or having to fake their own deaths. These people deserve metals for nother having completely broken down and being placed in Arkham Asylum.

[statsgirl]

I don't really have anything to contribute, but I think this is an interesting conversation because usually people seem to be more accepting of women crying, for whatever reason.

I think some people are more accepting of women crying because it proves that they are not as strong as men, and therefore it justifies how they are treated.  That's especially true in business and politics.  Remember the uproar when Hilary Clinton shed a tear?  But if a male politician cries, it goes to show what a caring heart he has.

 

Felicity did cry too much this season, but she also had much more reason to cry.  She finally got her dream date but even before they ordered, the restaurant got blown up and she got dumped without any say in the matter.  Her closest female friend (as far as we know) died, she had to lay out the body and Oliver had zero compassion for her feelings.  She repeatedly had to listen to Oliver telling her there was no chance for them, and then he told her he loved her just as he was going out to duel a villain on top of a mountain. He didn't come back but she held out hope unt il she got proof that he was dead. Meanwhile Diggle and Roy were trying to get themselves killed. Then when a miracle happened and Oliver did come back,  he became someone she didn't recognize and shut her out before going off to get killed again two more times.  When she tried to save him, he and Ra's locked her and her friends into a dungeon where she thought she was dying of a virus. Any one of those would have been enough to give a person PTSD, not to mention all the times she was shot at or her friends were shot at, or Ray wanted her to inject him with nanites because he'd been shot.

 

As far as I can recall, Barry's mother died when he was a child (about the same age as Felicity was when her father left them) and his father went to prison but he got a second father and family in Joe and Iris.  Eddie did die but Barry had spent most of the season disliking him.  And yet it seems Barry spent almost as much time crying as Felicty did, for much less reason.

[tarotx]

To be blunt with their opinion, Barry isn't comic relief bringing little humor nor a support character showing no respect to her superhero.

I think EBR doesn't enunciate her words well when crying which is something I didn't enjoy. I think she did the physical aspect of emotional crying really well. It only got bad for me when I just needed her light to make this show not as over angst. The show really needed to replace her light and hope that she bought. All "people" have dark patches but the show chose to not have anyone else into that positive role model in Oliver's life so everything was depressing.

While I personally do give title characters a bit more room when it comes to things that might annoy me, vocal crying is unpleasant at times and Barry also is a whiner. It's one of the reasons Flash is my least favorite superhero shows right now.

Edited July 19, 2015 by tarotx

[Trini]

It might be better to compare among the Arrow characters; Oliver, Thea, and Laurel also had crying scenes this past season, right?

[NumberCruncher]

It might be better to compare among the Arrow characters; Oliver, Thea, and Laurel also had crying scenes this past season, right?

Yep. I've long said that the biggest mope on Arrow is Oliver. Nobody has cried as much as he has over the past 3 seasons. He just doesn't get called out on it (nor have media articles written about it) like the female characters do.

Edited July 17, 2015 by NumberCruncher

[EmilyBettFan]

Yeah they did. I never saw in season 2 all the times Laurel cried written as articles.

[dtissagirl]

To be blunt with their opimion, Barry isn't comic relief bringing little humor nor a support character showing no respect to her superhero.

 

I'm scared to ask what you mean about "showing no respect to her superhero", because that sounds like a housewife from the '50s, but I want to unpack the comic relief thing, because that's also super problematic.

 

Felicity cried a lot this season, and that took her out of the comic relief box. And hi, I didn't enjoy all the crying either. I wish they could have balanced angst and humor better, because too much grimdark is never ever good TV for me. But a lot of the criticism about Felicity crying seems to be that people have pigeonholed her in the comic relief box, and HOW DARE SHE step out of it. Nobody is talking about the unbalanced too angsty story [except EBR and Wendy Mericle, funnily enough] in the articles we're seeing. All people are reacting to is "omg too much crying!"

 

This doesn't happen in a vacuum. Society in general do this to women all the time. Women have to fit certain pre-determined patriarchal parameters, and when they step out of those, it's a ~problem. And Hollywood mirrors that in the fictional lady characters, who are often [too often] written to be one or two things at a time only, and when/if they ever dare to step out of the box created for them, boom.

 

And on The Flash we have Cisco, who's more of a comic relief than Felicity ever was. But he got a much better balanced story arc of being allowed to be the comic relief, and the smartest guy in the room, and to have super emotional scenes with Wells, with Barry and Caitlin, with his family. He gets to be everything, really. They cast a person of color, who doesn't fit the CW typical standard of tall hunky square jawed dudebro, and Cisco is written as being able to do all things, and BE all things he wants to be at the same time.

 

Felicity doesn't get the same privilege. She needs to be always attractive, so "ugly crying" is a big no-no because it makes women look bad. How dare she not enunciate perfectly while having an emotional moment. She needs to provide the comic relief she was assigned two season ago, because that's the only narrative role she's allowed to play, right? And apparently there's the thing about her place in the caste system of her "not supporting her superhero", but I'm not gonna touch that one, sorry.

Edited July 17, 2015 by dancingnancy

[FormerMod-a1]

 A place to discuss gender treatment (equality or inequality, expectations, etc) in the DC Universe.

[tv echo]

Interesting interview with Gail Simone, creator of the Women in Refrigerators website and originator of the term "fridged women"...

 

Gail Simone on how 'Secret Six' fits into an increasingly diverse DC Comics clubhouse
By Aja Romano Jul 19, 2015, 12:56pm CT | Last updated Jul 19, 2015, 2:42pm CT
http://www.dailydot.com/geek/gail-simone-dcu-secret-six-interview/

 

Despite this article, I think there's still a long way to go before there's gender equality in comics (not to mention on TV)...

 

Watch Out, Wonder Woman, Female Superheroes Are On The Rise
Katherine Brooks Posted: 07/13/2015 | Edited: 07/13/2015 01:06 PM EDT

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/watch-out-wonder-woman-female-superheroes-are-on-the-rise_55a167f8e4b0b8145f72e10a

Edited July 20, 2015 by tv echo

[tarotx]

Some people like their characters to stay in the role they first viewed them. Either their comic role or their first season. They like to voice their frustrations on change and it's rarely pretty.

And that has to do with both comic relief and as a character meant to be there to give support to the lead and not there to be their own character. While some of us love characters who weren't there in the GA comics or even the pilot episode, some feel these characters increasingly causing their faves to be less prominent or forced to be stupid as the newer character is promoted or high lighted. Anger rises. I think it's the other way around too. They lashout at all flaws.

I'm scared to ask what you mean about "showing no respect to her superhero", because that sounds like a housewife from the '50s, but I want to unpack the comic relief thing, because that's also super problematic.

Felicity cried a lot this season, and that took her out of the comic relief box. And hi, I didn't enjoy all the crying either. I wish they could have balanced angst and humor better, because too much grimdark is never ever good TV for me. But a lot of the criticism about Felicity crying seems to be that people have pigeonholed her in the comic relief box, and HOW DARE SHE step out of it. Nobody is talking about the unbalanced too angsty story [except EBR and Wendy Mericle, funnily enough] in the articles we're seeing. All people are reacting to is "omg too much crying!"

This doesn't happen in a vacuum. Society in general do this to women all the time. Women have to fit certain pre-determined patriarchal parameters, and when they step out of those, it's a ~problem. And Hollywood mirrors that in the fictional lady characters, who are often [too often] written to be one or two things at a time only, and when/if they ever dare to step out of the box created for them, boom.

And on The Flash we have Cisco, who's more of a comic relief than Felicity ever was. But he got a much better balanced story arc of being allowed to be the comic relief, and the smartest guy in the room, and to have super emotional scenes with Wells, with Barry and Caitlin, with his family. He gets to be everything, really. They cast a person of color, who doesn't fit the CW typical standard of tall hunky square jawed dudebro, and Cisco is written as being able to do all things, and BE all things he wants to be at the same time.

Felicity doesn't get the same privilege. She needs to be always attractive, so "ugly crying" is a big no-no because it makes women look bad. How dare she not enunciate perfectly while having an emotional moment. She needs to provide the comic relief she was assigned two season ago, because that's the only narrative role she's allowed to play, right? And apparently there's the thing about her place in the caste system of her "not supporting her superhero", but I'm not gonna touch that one, sorry.

Edited July 20, 2015 by tarotx

[Delphi]

GaIL is always thoughtful and intelligent in her interviews though. She's highly aware that there isn't enough representation for women or LGBT in comics. I follow her on tumblr and she has some of the best answers to questions regarding those issues.

She's the kind of writer who knows her characters absolutely though. Unlike a certain guy who should really not be answering questions on tumblr.

[dtissagirl]

I just wanna leave the Women in Refrigerators link here: http://lby3.com/wir/index.html

[tv echo]

The Minds Behind Diversity in Comics: A Reading List
Emily Perper   August 2, 2015
http://blog.longreads.com/2015/08/02/the-minds-behind-diversity-in-comics-a-reading-list/

Edited August 4, 2015 by tv echo

[dtissagirl]

This is a great read:

 

Fangirls in the Crosshairs: https://medium.com/the-outtake/fangirls-in-the-crosshairs-9c0cb89a25bd

 

"I’m angry that lazy stereotypes of a century ago continue to be cheap tabloid currency today."

 

It applies to how 'shippers are perceived SO ACCURATELY too.

[tv echo]

This 2014 Vulture interview with Brian Michael Bendis was recently sourced by OutoftheClosetShipper and is worth reading (especially the quoted portion below)...

 

Comics Legend Brian Michael Bendis on Guardians of the Galaxy, Sexism, and Making a Nonwhite Spider-Man
By Abraham Riesman  July 31, 2014  1:15 p.m.
http://www.vulture.com/2014/04/comics-brian-michael-bendis-spider-man-guardians-x-men.html?mid=twitter_vulture

What’s the superhero comics industry’s biggest challenge?
Oh, I got a pile of stuff. Just yesterday, a woman wrote an article analyzing what she thought was a poor comic book cover, and she was met with just a bunch of shitty anonymous people being awful to her online. I think that a huge problem is people who read comics and don't understand the point of superheroes, which is to be the best version of yourself. You love Captain America? Well, you know what Captain America would never do? Go online anonymously and shit on a girl for having an opinion.

 

I would like there to be more of a connection between why people read these stories, and how they act. You should see Peter Parker and then want to act like Peter Parker. You shouldn't want to be Peter Parker because you want to sling webs and punch people. It should be because you want to be someone who lives with the idea of "with great power comes great responsibility." And that means that the power of the internet and the power of your ability to interact with people, should be treated like a power. You should treat it like a responsibility.

Edited August 6, 2015 by tv echo

[tv echo]

From the "Women Executive Producers of the CW" panel (which included Wendy Mericle, Arrow EP, and Gabrielle Stanton, Flash EP) at the TCA Summer 2015 Press Tour...

 

Women of CW: Exec Producers Talk Running Shows, Fighting Back Tears and Seeking Balance

AUGUST 11, 2015 | 05:18PM PT  Cynthia Littleton

http://variety.com/2015/tv/news/vampire-diaries-jane-the-virgin-women-showrunners-cw-1201568021/

 

Supporting The Sisterhood: The Women Exec Producers Of The CW – TCA
by Amanda N'Duka  August 11, 2015 7:38pm
http://deadline.com/2015/08/the-cw-female-showrunners-tca-1201497214/

 

Women at the CW work to keep sexual violence off their shows

By NARDINE SAAD  AUGUST 12, 2015  5:00 AM

http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/tv/showtracker/la-et-st-the-cw-rape-sexual-violence-women-showrunners-julie-plec-20150811-story.html

 

No Alcoholics, No Rapists, No Victims: The CW’s Female Showrunners on Sexual Violence and Telling Women’s Stories
BY PILOT VIRUET AUGUST 12, 2015 9:45 AM
http://flavorwire.com/532483/no-alcoholics-no-rapists-no-victims-the-cws-female-showrunners-on-sexual-violence-and-telling-womens-stories

Edited August 12, 2015 by tv echo

[dtissagirl]

The Media, Diversity, & Social Change Initiative released their yearly report on Diversity in Film:

 

http://www.annenberg.usc.edu/news/research/want-work-hollywood-only-straight-white-men-need-apply

 

tl;dr: 2014 sucked.

[tv echo]

The CW’s Slate Of Female Writers And Producers Is Truly Impressive
BY JESSICA GOLDSTEIN AUG 12, 2015 3:22PM
http://thinkprogress.org/culture/2015/08/12/3691069/the-cw-showrunners-on-rape-storylines-hiring-female-writers-and-women-on-tv/

 

Shonda aside, female TV showrunners remain the exception in Hollywood
By Joanne Ostrow  POSTED: 08/13/2015 11:03:27 AM
http://www.denverpost.com/entertainment/ci_28634367/shonda-aside-female-tv-showrunners-remain-exeception-hollywood

Edited August 15, 2015 by tv echo

[NorthstarATL]

So we have four shows in the DCTVU and not one gay male hero has been glimpsed? DC Comics has a couple they aren't using, most notably Obsidian, whose power is ridiculously easy to CGI. Especially when you consider that the shows have used gay male actors fairly well.

[quarks]

So we have four shows in the DCTVU and not one gay male hero has been glimpsed? DC Comics has a couple they aren't using, most notably Obsidian, whose power is ridiculously easy to CGI. Especially when you consider that the shows have used gay male actors fairly well.

 

Arrow is bringing in Mr. Terrific, a gay black superhero, though only in a supporting role.

[Delphi]

Arrow is bringing in Mr. Terrific, a gay black superhero, though only in a supporting role.

I am glad about Mr. Terrific, as a gay comic book Fanboy, but I really don't count him as much considering he is just a supporting role.

Honestly LoT would have been a great opportunity to include a gay character other than the the bisexual Sara Lance. And honestly I'm sure Greg would love to as well I just don't think it's a priority for the CW whose been bringing you queerbaiting for years with Supernatural.

Edited August 15, 2015 by Delphi

[NorthstarATL]

Since when is Mr T gay?

[quarks]

Since when is Mr T gay?

 

Right, I should have clarified. Both Mister Terrifics are/were straight in the comics, but Arrow announced that this Mister Terrific is gay.  I assume so the show could have someone else ogling Oliver on the salmon ladder. 

[tarotx]

I rather have Sara Lance. And bisexual characters are important as well.

Arrow wanted to bring in a male gay superhero tech guy because they liked the Ray Felicity dynamic but it didn't play as well with the fans. They think it was because of the love triangle. They take that away with him being gay. I guess DC gave them premission to use and make Mr Terrific gay.

[NorthstarATL]

Right, I should have clarified. Both Mister Terrifics are/were straight in the comics, but Arrow announced that this Mister Terrific is gay.  I assume so the show could have someone else ogling Oliver on the salmon ladder. 

Thanks! I looked it up, and, yep, this guy's Curtis Holt, and not Michael. I've only been randomly keeping up with DC Comics, but I knew that the current Michael Holt had been straight. Interestingly he started on Earth 1 and moved to Earth 2. Considering that the TV universe sometimes informs the comic book one, there IS an opening for a Terrific on Earth One, now, and who knows whether Michael had a relative named Curtis that he left behind?

 

I rather have Sara Lance. And bisexual characters are important as well.

Bisexual females are not in any way underrepresented in media. Nor, in fact, are gay males, but superheroic gay males are much less common, and are probably a tad more difficult to script, as one of the easiest entres into a CW show is to initiate a romantic pairing/triangle. You can pull it off with a bisexual character, but not with a gay character when that element isn't already available on the series.

[tarotx]

Oh I know but I rather have Sara Lance than some random male gay character and I just don't feel we will have 2 major LGBT characters on a comicbook show for now. Bisexuals may not be underpersented but they are important. And there will be 3 or four male straight superheroish characters plus the two male villains legends and only 2 girls so yeah I rather have Sara.

[Delphi]

I wasn't stating that I'd pick a gay male character over Sara. My bad if that's how it came out. I think there is room for both. I adore Sara and glad she's coming back. Nor do I think that bisexual individuals don't deserve representation because they do. But I also feel like gay men do as well. I would like to be able to have someone on the shows that I watch resonate with the way that I personally love.

[tarotx]

Yeah I understand. I would love a Gay superhero. I just don't think we are going to have 2 major LGBT characters on a comicbook show. And I rather we have Sara because I love her and she checks a couple boxes. But I'm all for removing Heat and Ray to make room for a Major Gay and his potential love interest. I nean we are getting Hawkman for Hawkgirl.

[tv echo]

This article was tweeted by Wendy Mericle (Arrow EP), along with her comment, "Makes me proud to work at @CW_network!" ...

 

Study: Women exec producers increase female hires in TV
Cynthia Littleton  September 15, 2015
http://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/tv/ct-female-hires-tv-study-20150915-story.html

Edited September 17, 2015 by tv echo

[CabotCove]

Yeah Felicity got some misogynistic/sexist hate this season but this is an issue thats prevalent in most if not all DCTV/flarrow female characters. Felicity is just the latest victim experiencing what has been allowed to exist and grow for so long IMO, I doubt  she has gotten the worst of it.   I think the perpetrators are getting the message "Dont you dare hate my favorite character" instead of "stop the sexism/misogyny, its wrong". Just saying, it would go a long way (maybe) if sexism/misogyny was more challenged and this passionately in the DCTV as a whole, not just when its affects Felicity. 

Edited September 21, 2015 by WildcardC

[BkWurm1]

I'd like to be able to promise to be there for Laurel - I was totally inceansed by how Ray reduced her opinion to nothing because she used to date Oliver and I ranted about that for a long time - but I have so many real complaints about the character. Maybe I'm tone deaf and don't pick up on the misogyny aimed her way.

[CabotCove]

Color me surprised as I dont think its really a secret that Laurel gets a lot of sexist/misogynistic hate which I believe is mostly informed by  shipping therefore tend to be, sadly internalized sexism/misogyny (unlike with Felicity, gets sexist hate mostly from males). Its gotten so hopeless, that I just tend to stay away from it. IN SHOW sexism for Laurel happens too, as it happens to most female characters in DCTVerse. Anyway I was mostly talking about CWDCTV female characters as a whole, besides Laurel, Helena B, Sara L, Iris W too..., have had some sexism/misogyny directed at them. Just feel that they could have used more support, when it was happening to them or still is.

 

At this point I feel like the fandom or show writing habits have become ingrained. Flarrow men have been allowed to get away with a lot for so long, they go scott free for similar actions, while female characters are villainised. Its normalized, so harder to change. So not surprised when Barry can get away with being emotional but Felicity cant, Helena couldnt get away with killing but Oliver can, Quentin can withhold information about Sara but Laurel cant and etc. Female characters are not allowed to be whole people, with flaws and layers .Just my perception. 

 

 

I was totally inceansed by how Ray reduced her opinion to nothing because she used to date Oliver

 

Not sure that counts as sexism, I just thought it had something to do with Laurel defending people she has personal relationships with, like how it was sort of a problem in Damaged (1.05) and her being involved Moira's case, different interpretation?. 

Edited September 25, 2015 by WildcardC

[BkWurm1]

Color me surprised as I dont think its really a secret that Laurel gets a lot of sexist/misogynistic hate which I believe is mostly informed by  shipping therefore tend to be, sadly internalized sexism/misogyny (unlike with Felicity, gets sexist hate mostly from males).

 

I reject my issues being about shipping since I actively disliked Laurel from the pilot episode and HATED her by episode two before Felicity was even a blip on screen.  Which is saying a lot since I had most meh feelings about the rest of the show.  I quit watching for weeks and let episodes pile up on my DVR and only eventually started watching again 'cause I'd promised a friend that had gone to only watching stuff via Netflix and Hulu and Amazon to check it out and tell him if it was worth his time.  So Laurel managed to earn her hate all on her own.  For me the hate has mellowed into frustration and resignation that she's not a better written character but I honestly don't feel that I judge her more unfairly than I do her male counterparts.  She has her own unique set of issues.

 

Quentin can withhold information about Sara but Laurel cant

 

For me the difference was that it wasn't Quentin's secret to tell that Sara was alive - she'd said don't tell anyone - while Sara's death wasn't Laurel's secret to keep and that information belonged as much to her parents as it did to her and of course with Laurel telling virtually everyone BUT her father it only made her supposed reasons for not telling him more and more of a joke. 

 

Quentin would have liked to tell his family that Sara was alive (as soon as it is known, he starts planning on how to get his family back together) but he respected Sara's wishes.  It was her secret but once Sara died, she left no instructions to keep it from her father but Laurel for a host of shifting reasons kept finding reasons why SHE should keep knowledge about his other daughter from him.  The idea that telling him would kill him was quickly shown to be not a real reason or worry since his heart was handling lots of other constant stress and she had many chances to tell him in an hospital setting.  So Laurel keeping Sara's death a secret became about HER deciding to make Sara's death a secret rather than Sara making her father promise not to tell.  Both are withholding information but they are not equal situations. 

 

One could make Sara keeping her secret about being alive parallel to Laurel keeping knowledge about Sara's death but not IMO Quentin keeping quiet about Sara since it wasn't his secret to tell. 

 

Not sure that counts as sexism, I just thought it had something to do with Laurel defending people she has personal relationships with, like how it was sort of a problem in Damaged (1.05) and her being involved Moira's case, different interpretation?.

 

Ray was very clear about what kind of relationship Laurel and Oliver had.  He flat out said Felicity couldn't see the truth because she had feelings for Oliver and then told Laurel that the reason she was protecting Oliver was because she used to date him.  It wasn't because Laurel had a conflict of interest, the implication was that neither she nor Felicity despite knowing Oliver far better than Ray  could possess trustworthy judgment because their emotions were involved.  Not just emotions but at one time ROMANTIC emotions were involved.  He was saying although he didn't know Oliver, he possessed a better ability to know what kind of man he was than two people that actually knew him really well and his reason was an assumption that women can't be objective about a man they'd had feelings for...despite the fact that Oliver and Laurel had broke up ages ago and not to mention the whole betrayal thing and yet he still assumed she had romantic feelings prompting her to protect him.  Cause they used to date. 

 

I'd call that misogynistic. 

[CabotCove]

I reject my issues being about shipping since I actively disliked Laurel from the pilot episode and HATED her by episode two before Felicity was even a blip on screen.

 

I wasn't saying everyone, I know there are legit reasons to criticise/hate these characters.  My statement wasn't about you personally, it was about what I have  observed on a wider scale. Certain trends,coincidences and patterns have led me to believe shipping is a huge factor (among others) in character hate, sexist hate, in this case.( Felicity gets some of it too now she is the official love interest). 

 

One could make Sara keeping her secret about being alive parallel to Laurel keeping knowledge about Sara's death but not IMO Quentin keeping quiet about Sara since it wasn't his secret to tell.

 

Each to their own on that, as I feel there wasnt MUCH of a difference. 

 

he possessed a better ability to know what kind of man he was than two people that actually knew him really well and his reason was an assumption that women can't be objective about a man they'd had feelings for.

 

We dont really know he wouldnt have said that about a male, I would think most people would not be objective when defending a person they knew intimately. Ray did give Laurel the benefit of the doubt by going to her, yet she shut him down quickly, mocking his "evidence". We know Laurel is lying about Oliver and she herself is a vigilante. So is Ray really wrong (Laurel had personal interests to protect).  Dont see sexism/misogyny here. Gonna have to agree to disagree on this one. 

Edited September 27, 2015 by WildcardC

[BkWurm1]

If Ray had made his comment to Laurel about her and Oliver being long time friends, I would chalk it up to him not trusting those close to Oliver but Ray specifically tied it to the fact that Oliver and Laurel had dated and that was why she was protecting him.

In the end it doesn't matter. I feel like the whole episode was full of OOC moments for several of the characters. It was purely plot driven so I tend to now give Ray a pass on his actions. I don't think he normally is that guy we saw but oh boy did it take me a few weeks to come down from the hate. And I always liked Ray before that episode.

Maybe Ray isn't misogynistic but someone on the writers staff needed a lesson in gender relations.

Edited September 28, 2015 by BkWurm1

[Sakura12]

I seem to remember that when Roy told Sara that of course she'd take his side because she was sleeping with him. I heard a lot of "GO, ROY!" around here. That was a similar situation and Sara got the hate for it. 

 

I think the issue is that TV has been male dominated for so long that we are still not used to or given a lot of female characters. Which leads to the male characters being forgiven for things because we're used to it, while the females doing the same thing is a new concept and one that is not widely accepted. I know I'm guilty of putting more on a female character than a male. I hope we can change our views but I think we need a lot more female characters to get to that point. 

[BkWurm1]

And female writers and female show creators and female show runners. 

 

It's a long list. 

 

I like this just emerging trend that seems to be happening where movie producers seem to be more willing to consider taking the same role in their script and just casting a woman.  Sandra Bullock in Gravity and with her latest movie and Emily Blunt in her latest one.  I know it's not a brand new idea, they did it with His Girl Friday way back in the thirties but for that they had to do a lot rewriting.  I'm finding it interesting how little they need to adjust the movie now when they flip the genders. 

 

Wouldn't it be nice if a bunch of movies cast the best person for the lead and then just tweaked accordingly around it?  Could be a great way to address the stereo type problem in writing.  Harder to write to stereotype if you don't know which one to write to. 

[CabotCove]

SUPERHEROES AND THE GENDER POLITICS OF ANGER

. 

Just an article on the usual double standards and hypocrisy over female characters  actions/reactions. (Haven't watched Daredevil so no comment but agree mostly about Arrow/Flash)

With a female protagonist superhero, lets see and hope that Supergirl can do things differently. As well as be received with understanding and fairness . 

Edited October 23, 2015 by WildcardC

[BkWurm1]

Supergirl has sidestepped a lot of that with the characters around her that she is close to already knowing about her powers or being quickly let in on the secret.  Maybe that's another part of the super hero gender gap, women don't get to keep secrets from the men in their lives? 

 

I'm not really being fair since I happen to have heard Berlanti and Kriesenberg both say how much they hate the secret keeping part of the story.  Most likely they just wanted to completely skip it with Supergirl. 

[Actionmage]

I'm not really being fair since I happen to have heard Berlanti and Kriesenberg both say how much they hate the secret keeping part of the story.  Most likely they just wanted to completely skip it with Supergirl.

 

And yet, look at how they prolonged  the i.d. reveals of Oliver and Barry. It was short to Oliver and Barry's support teams, but it was almost a running gag about how many folks- good guys and baddies of the week- knew The Flash's civilian identity. When it came to Iris, it took a time jaunt and the looming season finale to "let" her know.

 

Thea got good and angry and took her anger out financially on her family. Unfortunately, her birth father swooped in and was BSC at her, but Thea got to have a reasonable, human reaction to a year of lies, unlike Ms. West.

 

A long way of saying that I'm not fully trusting of that supposed "hate" of secrets. They can say that as much as they want, but we have episodes to look at and see how the final product delivered on the show creators' wishes.

 

It was refreshing not to have so much lying and angst about the lying on Supergirl. I figure there will be some, but the people who know currently make sense, so it doesn't bug me.