Lorelai and Luke

[Bringonthedrama]

3 hours ago, clack said:

Were Luke and Lorelai ever truly close friends? Before they became romantically involved, did we ever see them just hang out with each other?

hey don't socialize -- don't go out walking together, or play some board game in the evening  together, or go out for drinks, or go to movie, or concert, etc., any of the things that friends do with each other.

I would say they were close friends, and they did socialize.  Aside from the movie night mentioned above,  Luke and Jess came over for dinner at Lorelai's invitation (Jess didn't stay), they had a fairly intimate conversation about Luke's dad/why Luke never spruced up the diner, Lorelai accompanied Luke (at his request) to see a house he was considering buying for himself and Jess, Luke and Lorelai teamed up to break the bell (s?) in the tower that they hated, Luke and Lorelai had a "picnic" lunch in the gazebo for that town basket event, Lorelai accompanied Luke  to his uncle's burial, and Lorelai furiously told Jess off because he got drunk to cope with badly hurt feelings from Jess saying mean things to him.  

Edited September 16, 2017 by Bringonthedrama

[elang4]

49 minutes ago, clack said:

Luke could have found time  -- and indeed did, for his daughter and when he was dating.

An unexplored theme was Luke's loneliness. Luke had no friends. He spent all day at the diner, then went upstairs to --  what? watch TV? read books? the newspaper? listen to music? We never find out.

The fact that Luke when he wasn't dating had no social life, explains why he was always so eager to run over Lorelai's house to help her with repairs and such. He was lonely. 

Lorelai hung out with Rory and with Sookie. Briefly chatting with Luke at the diner while he waited on customers doesn't really count as hanging out, unless you say that Kirk was also "hanging out" with Luke.

I think there was a good narrative reason why we never saw Lorelai and Luke socialize one-on-one together. It would not be plausible that two people who were attracted to each other could, over the span of five or six years, spend time alone together and not make evident their feelings.

I think there were several things that showed they were friends outside the diner. He helped Rory move into Yale, he had a movie night with Lorelai, he went to Rory's birthday party and helped Lorelai fix the catwalk at the inn because she asked him to. He also bid on her basket, taught her how to fish, shovelled her drive when it snowed, kept the diner open after hours for her and Rory and he went to the Bracebridge dinner to support her. Luke did a lot out of the diner for Lorelai. And from the other side, Lorelai did a lot for him too. She practically dropped everything to help him out when his uncle died, she bailed him out of jail, she even talked him into giving things a go with Rachel. I honestly see them as close friends. Just because they weren't together the whole time doesn't mean they weren't close friends.

29 minutes ago, Bringonthedrama said:

I would say they were close friends, and they did socialize.  Aside from the movie night mentioned above,  Luke and Jess came over for dinner at Lorelai's invitation (Jess didn't stay), they had a fairly intimate conversation about Luke's dad/why Luke never spruced up the diner, Lorelai accompanied Luke (at his request) to see a house he was considering buying for himself and Jess, Luke and Lorelai teamed up to break the bell (s?) in the tower that they hated, Luke and Lorelai had a "picnic" lunch in the gazebo for that town basket event, Lorelai accompanied Luke  to his uncle's burial, and Lorelai furiously told Jess off because he got drunk to cope with badly hurt feelings from Jess saying mean things to him.  

Totally agree. They showed their friendship in different ways.  He helped Lorelai pack for Europe as well. I keep thinking of other scenarios as well.

Edited September 16, 2017 by elang4

[Kohola3]

I think that the comfort level and the degree of intimacy that they had in the first couple of seasons showed a longtime friendship.  I have dear friends that live across the country that I see only occasionally but they are a part of my life and would drop everything to support me, if needed.  It's not necessarily proximity that defines friendship, it's thoughts and actions.  Luke and Lorelai teased and bantered and supported each other in so many ways because they knew each other very well, far beyond acquaintances, in my opinion. 

[elang4]

3 minutes ago, Kohola3 said:

I think that the comfort level and the degree of intimacy that they had in the first couple of seasons showed a longtime friendship.  I have dear friends that live across the country that I see only occasionally but they are a part of my life and would drop everything to support me, if needed.  It's not necessarily proximity that defines friendship, it's thoughts and actions.  Luke and Lorelai teased and bantered and supported each other in so many ways because they knew each other very well, far beyond acquaintances, in my opinion. 

I agree. Both knew that the other would be there for them when needed and they showed that. Lorelai and Rory went into the diner practically every day as well, maybe even twice a day so Lorelai saw Luke a lot. 

[clack]

Not denying that they were friends, just saying that they were not, by my definition at least, close friends. Luke had, what, one movie night with Lorelai after knowing each other for nine years or however long it was. What else do they do together, outside of a work situation? They don't confide in each other, otherwise Lorelai would have known about Rachel.

Luke serving as Lorelai's for-free handyman and errand boy only shows that Luke really, really liked her, and wanted her to like him. Again, not denying that they had great affection and loyalty for each other. But eating at Luke's along with a dozen other customers while Luke is busy running the place is not hanging out with Luke. Luke going to Rory's birthday party, along with half the town, is not a particular sign of a close friendship.

[Taryn74]

19 minutes ago, clack said:

They don't confide in each other, otherwise Lorelai would have known about Rachel.

While I believe they were what I would consider close friends, I can understand your arguments to the contrary, except for this one.  Why would Luke feel the need to fill Lorelai in on a serious girlfriend who had taken off before Lorelai was really in his life in any capacity?

[junienmomo]

The gaps in backstory that ASP left were big, and it's not just about Luke and Lorelai.

Lorelai was reputedly a successful businesswoman but we saw little of that before she started her own Inn. Hopefully she was a better manager of her business finances than she was of her personal.

Rory and Lorelai had a famously close relationship, but there really didn't seem to be that much sharing at least on Lorelai's part. 

Without listing more examples, I've come to accept that there was a lot of time for chatting and getting to know each other in the lull times and the evenings at Luke's. The fact that she neither knew about Luke's romantic past nor seemed to care enough to ask was more about their unspoken agreement to not ask about each other's love lives, with possibly a little Lorelai self-involvement added to it. There was also a strong "I don't know you that well" vibe in season one.

 

Luke did have friends when the plot called for it. People to give tickets to, and to give him a place to go several times a week. He spent a lot more time with Buddy and Maisy than was ever used on-screen. Luke was definitely not a socializer, though.

Edited September 17, 2017 by junienmomo

[clack]

Not only did Lorelai not know about Rachel, she also didn't know that Luke disappears for a few days each year on the anniversary of his father's death.

It's such a weird friendship. They're there for each other when either needs help, but there is no intimacy, no confidences, no "hey let's do something fun tonight".

[elang4]

1 hour ago, clack said:

Not only did Lorelai not know about Rachel, she also didn't know that Luke disappears for a few days each year on the anniversary of his father's death.

It's such a weird friendship. They're there for each other when either needs help, but there is no intimacy, no confidences, no "hey let's do something fun tonight".

No one knew why Luke had a dark day. To be fair, I think it's ok for Luke to want to keep that private. It's his thing.

[ghoulina]

I don't think you can define "close friends" with Luke and Lorelai the same way you would for most normal people. Luke was a major introvert. I don't think he was the type to get together with people frequently, or confide in someone. He knew everyone in town and was on friendlier terms with some more than others, but he dealt with people ALL. DAY. LONG. At the end of the day, I think he really just wanted to go be by himself. And I just think it was in his nature to be very private and solitary. Nothing wrong with that. I just think that's how some people are. So....given that Luke was this way, I think you could definitely say the interactions he had with Lorelai were a "close friendship" for HIM. 

Edited September 18, 2017 by ghoulina

[AsYouWish]

Quote

I don't think you can define "close friends" with Luke and Lorelai the same way you would for most normal people. Luke was a major introvert. I don't think he was the type to get together with people frequently, or confide in someone. He knew everyone in town and was on friendlier terms with some more than others, but he dealt with people ALL. DAY. LONG. At the end of the day, I think he really just wanted to go be by himself. And I just think it was in his nature to be very private and solitary. Nothing wrong with that. I just think that's how some people are. So....given that Luke was this way, I think you could definitely say the interactions he had with Lorelai were a "close friendship" for HIM. 

I am just like Luke in that and other ways (even with a similar wardrobe, haha), and this struck me as right on target. By Luke's standards, he and Lorelai were truly close friends. And regardless of whether it was through formally scheduled plans or simply because she kept choosing to show up at the diner, they did see each other and talk nearly every single day. That's more contact than an introvert like I am has with any of my friends!  

I'd like to tentatively float the idea that Lorelai's social situation was a lot more similar to Luke's than it might first appear. Aside from Sookie and her own daughter, Lorelai didn't have close ties with anyone other than Luke. She's more chatty and engaged in public, but in reality this is a woman who chooses to spend most of her time home alone even after Rory's moved out, and she prefers solitary activities like watching movies, sewing, reading magazines and so on.  Someone said a while back that Lorelai is a closet introvert, and that struck me as a really accurate insight. I've read about extroverted introverts, people who seem talkative and sociable but actually have few very few close ties, spend a lot of time alone and are private about the feelings that matter most. Lorelai immediately leapt to mind.

Lorelai is a part of the community but never seems truly tied to anyone other than Rory, Luke and Sookie, and she's an outsider in her parents' world. Both Luke and Lorelai in their own ways are very independent by choice yet also a little lonely and know what it's like not to fully fit in. They both seemed to instinctively understand that about each other, which is part of what I always felt drew them together. 

So I would venture that just as Lorelai and Luke are very close friends by Luke's loner-ish standards, they're close friends even by Lorelai's 'not nearly as extroverted or socially active as she appears to be' standards as well. There was probably a much more succinct way to say that! 

Edited September 18, 2017 by AsYouWish

[Taryn74]

30 minutes ago, AsYouWish said:

So I would venture that just as Lorelai and Luke are very close friends by Luke's loner-ish standards, they're close friends even by Lorelai's 'not nearly as extroverted or socially active as she appears to be' standards as well.

I agree!

[Guest]

I think they were pretty close friends starting about Season 2. Prior to that, they gave off more of an acquaintance vibe.  But they each had a habit of turning to each other when they needed something and Lorelai was stunned when she found out In the Clangor and the Clamor that he moved without telling her.  

[ghoulina]

1 hour ago, AsYouWish said:

I'd like to tentatively float the idea that Lorelai's social situation was a lot more similar to Luke's than it might first appear. Aside from Sookie and her own daughter, Lorelai didn't have close ties with anyone other than Luke. She's more chatty and engaged in public, but in reality this is a woman who chooses to spend most of her time home alone even after Rory's moved out, and she prefers solitary activities like watching movies, sewing, reading magazines and so on.  Someone said a while back that Lorelai is a closet introvert, and that struck me as a really accurate insight. I've read about extroverted introverts, people who seem talkative and sociable but actually have few very few close ties, spend a lot of time alone and are private about the feelings that matter most. Lorelai immediately leapt to mind.

That's a very good point. I hadn't thought of her like that. I'm what's called an "Ambivert" - both extrovert and introvert. When I'm in social settings, I can be very friendly and engaging and chatty. I like to go out....sometimes. But I also like a LOT of downtime, alone,  to just recharge. This was more apparent when I worked outside the home, of course. My husband is a straight up introvert, because he rarely likes to go out and when he does he'll sit in the same place and talk to the same person (who approached him) all night. So we might be a lot like Luke and Lorelai in that way. 

[Kohola3]

Great post, AsYouWish.  I, too, had never thought about them in that way and I think you are correct.  In that whole context, L and L were, indeed, friends.

[Bringonthedrama]

On 9/16/2017 at 9:24 PM, clack said:

Not denying that they were friends, just saying that they were not, by my definition at least, close friends. Luke had, what, one movie night with Lorelai after knowing each other for nine years or however long it was. What else do they do together, outside of a work situation? They don't confide in each other, otherwise Lorelai would have known about Rachel.

 

Aside from telling Lorelai about his father/reasons for not wanting to spruce up the diner, the confiding moment that stands out in my memory was the "I'm not wearing my socks" dialogue. He quietly told Lorelai (while they were in the diner) that he realized his wife, Nicole, had been cheating. He put on another guy's socks, and realized it later.  I got the very distinct impression that he was *not* going to be sharing that information with Jess or any other Stars Hollow folks.

[elang4]

8 minutes ago, Bringonthedrama said:

Aside from telling Lorelai about his father/reasons for not wanting to spruce up the diner, the confiding moment that stands out in my memory was the "I'm not wearing my socks" dialogue. He quietly told Lorelai (while they were in the diner) that he realized his wife, Nicole, had been cheating. He put on another guy's socks, and realized it later.  I got the very distinct impression that he was *not* going to be sharing that information with Jess or any other Stars Hollow folks.

I agree. He was saying it very quietly and he knew Lorelai would eventually understand what he meant. It was a very poignant moment when Lorelai empathised with him and was sorry for him even though she didn't particularly like Nicole.

[andromeda331]

On ‎9‎/‎18‎/‎2017 at 8:11 AM, AsYouWish said:

I am just like Luke in that and other ways (even with a similar wardrobe, haha), and this struck me as right on target. By Luke's standards, he and Lorelai were truly close friends. And regardless of whether it was through formally scheduled plans or simply because she kept choosing to show up at the diner, they did see each other and talk nearly every single day. That's more contact than an introvert like I am has with any of my friends!  

I'd like to tentatively float the idea that Lorelai's social situation was a lot more similar to Luke's than it might first appear. Aside from Sookie and her own daughter, Lorelai didn't have close ties with anyone other than Luke. She's more chatty and engaged in public, but in reality this is a woman who chooses to spend most of her time home alone even after Rory's moved out, and she prefers solitary activities like watching movies, sewing, reading magazines and so on.  Someone said a while back that Lorelai is a closet introvert, and that struck me as a really accurate insight. I've read about extroverted introverts, people who seem talkative and sociable but actually have few very few close ties, spend a lot of time alone and are private about the feelings that matter most. Lorelai immediately leapt to mind.

Lorelai is a part of the community but never seems truly tied to anyone other than Rory, Luke and Sookie, and she's an outsider in her parents' world. Both Luke and Lorelai in their own ways are very independent by choice yet also a little lonely and know what it's like not to fully fit in. They both seemed to instinctively understand that about each other, which is part of what I always felt drew them together. 

So I would venture that just as Lorelai and Luke are very close friends by Luke's loner-ish standards, they're close friends even by Lorelai's 'not nearly as extroverted or socially active as she appears to be' standards as well. There was probably a much more succinct way to say that! 

I really like this idea. It fits Lorelai very well. 

[Bringonthedrama]

On 9/18/2017 at 10:11 AM, AsYouWish said:

 

On 9/23/2017 at 2:26 AM, andromeda331 said:

I really like this idea. It fits Lorelai very well. 

Lorelai is a part of the community but never seems truly tied to anyone other than Rory, Luke and Sookie, and she's an outsider in her parents' world. Both Luke and Lorelai in their own ways are very independent by choice yet also a little lonely and know what it's like not to fully fit in. They both seemed to instinctively understand that about each other, which is part of what I always felt drew them together. 

 

This is accurate. One day in the diner, she flat out said to Luke "I have Rory, and Sookie, this town and...you. At least, I think...?" And Luke responded, "You do."

[AsYouWish]

Hi everyone! Does anyone happen to know when Luke and Lorelai's birthdays are? I'm asking for fanfic purposes :) 

[Taryn74]

1 hour ago, AsYouWish said:

Hi everyone! Does anyone happen to know when Luke and Lorelai's birthdays are? I'm asking for fanfic purposes :) 

Lorelai's is April 26.

According to the GG wiki, Luke's is some time in October or November, I guess because he's a Scorpio according to WitS?  I know nothing about horoscopes LOL but that's what they reference.

[AsYouWish]

I knew the brilliant GG experts here could help me out! Luke having a fall birthday was actually just what I was hoping for :) 

[iknowyouknow]

I love these insights about how Luke and Lorelai are both lonely outsiders in their own ways and how the fierce independence they both possess is both an asset and an albatross throughout their lives. I wish I'd found you all sooner!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMqW-LkX7ds

I've been watching videos like the one I linked to above and miss their early seasons dynamic so much. They had "smaller" moments back then but they felt more meaningful and emotionally effective than a lot of what we got while they were dating. I wrote in the One is the Loneliest Number thread that I only love their relationship when I ignore 98% of how it was actually written, but I should have clarified that I was referring to their romantic relationship. It's fair to note that by the time they finally got together romantically, I was disenchanted with how the show wrote its characters and plots in general, not just in relation to the LL romance. It doesn't help that ASP seems to have adopted the Joss Whedon 'happy and healthy relationships are automatically boring, so let's be sure to make them as dysfunctional as possible, mmmkay?' philosophy of romance writing. I agree with the idea that ASP didn't seem to have any idea what to do with this couple and didn't even seem to like this couple. [Or maybe any of her couples!]

The revival felt like ASP's way of spitefully doubling down on all of her initial mistakes. You thought they had communication issues back then? Well, look, they're even worse now - they can't even have one normal adult conversation about their lives despite being together a decade! You found April an annoying plot device? Then how about I make her even MORE annoying now and show you how Luke and Lorelai still can't communicate about her!  You thought Lorelai was too self-absorbed and immature and that Luke was too shouty and grumpy and seemed inexplicably less intelligent as the show wore on? No problem, I'll address those concerns by making Lorelai even less mature despite her increased age and life experience and have her evade and lie about things like the therapy sessions to Luke because...well, there is no reason, so suck on that, fans! Meanwhile, I will have Luke even more surly and permanently annoyed with everyone and everything and even less capable of holding a conversation, and now I've decreased his IQ to the point where he's incapable of grasping the concept of surrogacy. How do you like that, GG fanatics?

All that said, I loved LL's wedding in Fall. I bought the episode on Amazon video just so I can watch it over and over. [Thank the lord I figured out how to fast forward through the Life and Death Brigade parts, or I'd be typing this from an institution!] Just thinking about the wedding gives me chills, and it's an example of how perfectly ASP can capture certain emotions and life's beauty when she actually tries to. But as wonderful as it was, it wasn't quite enough to make up for how terribly she'd been writing this couple since back in the fifth season.  

Okay, so I'm a little bitter and maybe even paranoid, but I really do feel like ASP has a spiteful bitter streak and a love/hate relationship with GG's fans that manifests clearly in what and how she writes.

But to circle back to a more positive note, once upon a time she did give us this incredibly touching, funny, unsentimental yet achingly deep connection between two damaged but worthy people. [I am one of the few who still loves Lorelai and Luke despite how infuriating they can be. Rory, on the other hand, ASP may have succeeded in making me dislike, but I know that's not off topic here] That's the LL who I fell in love with and who I fully believed loved each other even though they weren't ready to act on it. That's the LL who makes me want to write fanfiction even though I have very little talent for it!

If you all had to pick your favorite LL moments from just the show's first three seasons, which ones come to mind?

[Taryn74]

35 minutes ago, iknowyouknow said:

If you all had to pick your favorite LL moments from just the show's first three seasons, which ones come to mind?

Double Date - when they are watching Sookie and Jackson finally relax and have fun on their first date.

Forgiveness & Stuff - when Lorelai gets the call about her dad and Luke shushes Taylor so he can find out what's happened, then he immediately closes the diner to drive her to the hospital.

A Deep Fried Korean Thanksgiving - when Lorelai asks for more marshmallows for her sweet potatoes, then goes ahead and steals some of Luke's when he stands up to go get them.  Heh.

[lulu1960]

Forgiveness and Stuff - Lorelai giving Luke the blue hat.

Dead Uncles and Vegetables - Lorelai helping Luke with the funeral. Especially the scene at the gravesite.

Bracebridge Dinner - The sleigh ride.

[FictionLover]

10 hours ago, iknowyouknow said:

I love these insights about how Luke and Lorelai are both lonely outsiders in their own ways and how the fierce independence they both possess is both an asset and an albatross throughout their lives. I wish I'd found you all sooner!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMqW-LkX7ds

I wanted to share my favorite LL video.  All the feels of the first 3-4 seasons. Hope you enjoy it too.

BTW, ASP not only dumbed him down but his wardrobe got worse every year.  His clothes at least fit him the first year and they got baggier every year until AYITL when his flannels were gigantic! Except season 7, when she was not writing.

Edited February 27, 2018 by FictionLover

[iknowyouknow]

Quote

If you all had to pick your favorite LL moments from just the show's first three seasons, which ones come to mind?

How did you all find the discipline to limit yourselves to just three scenes?! I jotted down 18 and am still adding some that I forgot! But I'm eager to fit in around here so will try to follow your lead :) ["Where you lead, I will follow..."]

Season 1: The painting scenes in That Donna Reed. I'm guessing that most people who care enough about LL to come to this thread know why I think their interactions and chemistry here are so special, but let me know if you want me to elaborate on why I chose this.

Season 2: Declaring in Run Away Little Boy that they are in each other's lives forever and among the few people who the other truly trusts and counts on. This scene touches me for so many reasons. It's not a show where people explicitly and directly declare their affection for each other very often. Even Lorelai and Rory, the closest and most sentimental relationship on the show, rarely exchange "I love you"s or talk about how much they mean to each other.  So the few times when people do seriously tell each other how much they mean to each other, especially when one of those people is as guarded as Luke and the other is as determined to often keep things safely superficial like Lorelai, resonates so strongly. I also love this scene for offering a valid explanation for why LL don't get together romantically sooner than they actually do.

Season 3: It may not say a lot for the quality of season 3's LL interactions overall that my two favorite scenes happen to be dreams rather than things that happened between them in reality! The dreams from the season's first and final episodes, Lazy Hazy Crazy Days and from Those Are Strings, just kill me every time. Kill me in a good way. :) 

Edited February 27, 2018 by iknowyouknow

[Taryn74]

I was reminded of another one when I was looking up quotes for the Elimination game -

In F&S when Lorelai keeps making excuses not to go in and see her father (knowing they don't do 'emotional' very well) and Luke calls her on it.  "Who you gonna go find now, Jimmy Hoffa?  That'll keep you busy for a while."  It always pleases me when someone calls Lorelai on her bullsh!t, and Luke could do it in a way that showed he still cared.

[Smad]

Since someone upthreat called Lorelai a closet introvert (totally agree with that) and you are talking about fave scenes, there is one from S2 (I think) that always springs to mind. It's when Lorelai is admitting to Luke that she was a jerk to Sookie when talking about opening their own inn. Think it was the Mia episode, either way it was the one with poor Gilbert loosing his head.

Anyway in that scene Lorelai flat out admits to Luke that her whole 'Lorelai' facade is just that, a facade. And that underneath is a person riddled with insecurities. Can anyone imagine Lorelai admitting that to Rory, Sookie, her parents or even Chris? I was amazed at her choice to confide in him (largely because in S1 they weren't that close) and being vulnerable with him in a way that you know she wouldn't be with others. It's something that I loved about them pre-dating (and why I shipped them), that willingness to be vulnerable with each other.

[elang4]

3 minutes ago, Smad said:

Since someone upthreat called Lorelai a closet introvert (totally agree with that) and you are talking about fave scenes, there is one from S2 (I think) that always springs to mind. It's when Lorelai is admitting to Luke that she was a jerk to Sookie when talking about opening their own inn. Think it was the Mia episode, either way it was the one with poor Gilbert loosing his head.

Anyway in that scene Lorelai flat out admits to Luke that her whole 'Lorelai' facade is just that, a facade. And that underneath is a person riddled with insecurities. Can anyone imagine Lorelai admitting that to Rory, Sookie, her parents or even Chris? I was amazed at her choice to confide in him (largely because in S1 they weren't that close) and being vulnerable with him in a way that you know she wouldn't be with others. It's something that I loved about them pre-dating (and why I shipped them), that willingness to be vulnerable with each other.

He was always the one she could confide in. She could tell him things she couldn’t even admit to Rory. That’s what I loved about them.

[Smad]

29 minutes ago, elang4 said:

He was always the one she could confide in. She could tell him things she couldn’t even admit to Rory. That’s what I loved about them.

And it's why the second half of S6 simply doesn't work for me. Hell a lot of S5 doesn't work for me. It's completely OOC to what we have seen them be pre-dating.

[clack]

There was always something missing in the the LL relationship during the first few seasons, and that was we never got a clear look at the internal obstacles that were keeping Lorelai and Luke from becoming a couple.

We get it from Luke's perspective : he's into Lorelai, but he thinks that she's not attracted to him. That's pretty straightforward. But what are Lorelai's feelings for Luke? Sookie or Emily would comment on the apparent romantic chemistry between the two, but Lorelai's reaction would be enigmatic.

This was a lost opportunity for some romantic drama. Lorelai could have said something like, "This is a small town, I have only two real friends here ( other than Rory, of course), and my history with relationships is not a good one. If I did get together with Luke and it didn't work out, our friendship would then be in jeopardy, I wouldn't be able to avoid him in such a small community -- life could just get really awkward. It's not worth the risk."

That's a plausible motive for Lorelai resisting getting into a relationship with Luke. And there would be dramatic tension in seeing this obstacle being gradually chipped away it, and eventually overcome.

Instead we got : Luke is in love with Lorelai, we don't know how Lorelai feels, and then Lorelai, after many years of friendship, decides to ask Luke on a date. Not very satisfying for a viewer.

[iknowyouknow]

Quote

This was a lost opportunity for some romantic drama. Lorelai could have said something like, "This is a small town, I have only two real friends here ( other than Rory, of course), and my history with relationships is not a good one. If I did get together with Luke and it didn't work out, our friendship would then be in jeopardy, I wouldn't be able to avoid him in such a small community -- life could just get really awkward. It's not worth the risk."

That's a plausible motive for Lorelai resisting getting into a relationship with Luke. And there would be dramatic tension in seeing this obstacle being gradually chipped away it, and eventually overcome.

She essentially did say this exact thing, though---to Luke in Run Away Little Boy.

[Smad]

48 minutes ago, iknowyouknow said:

She essentially did say this exact thing, though---to Luke in Run Away Little Boy.

Exactly. The episode dealt with Lorelai going out with a younger guy and Sookie telling her Luke acted like he did because he was romantically interested in Lorelai. Lorelai brushed it off as usual, of course. At the end of the episode Lorelai makes it clear that she values having Luke in her life and he was only 1 of 3 people being named there. It ties into the introvert disguised as an extrovert discussion again. I think Lorelai is attracted to Luke (she let it slip in S1 when she told him she found him good looking) but because she has so few people in her life who she considers 'life long', she consciously doesn't entertain the thought of going there with Luke. She knows she is no prize when it comes to romantic relationships and she wouldn't want to lose him, so she won't risk it.

[Taryn74]

She also discussed the possibility of dating Luke with Rory in one of the earliest S1 episodes (possibly even the Pilot, but I don't feel like looking it up) and they decided it's best not to risk it in case it doesn't work out and they have to eat at Al's every day.

[clack]

A well-structured romantic comedy typically will present two people who obviously belong together, but who are kept apart through some obstacle or obstacles, preferably internal to one or both of the characters. (An external obstacle, a.k.a 'April', is usually unsatisfying).

One of the problems with the Luke/Lorelai dynamic is the wobbly set-up. Luke, initially, was presented as only potential romantic interest. Only as season 1 went along was the romantic tension between the two amped up, but at that point we still didn't know what was keeping them apart, exactly.

'Run Away Little Boy' was what? Midway through the 2nd season? Only then did we get the obstacle presented clearly. And even then we didn't get a strong internal conflict within Lorelai. There was no pining for Luke, for instance. Instead, it was Max, Alex, Christopher, Digger, etc. Sure, she was attracted to Luke, but apparently not strongly so. Thus, the dissipation of the romantic tension between the two after the first season.

[FictionLover]

42 minutes ago, clack said:

A well-structured romantic comedy typically will present two people who obviously belong together, but who are kept apart through some obstacle or obstacles, preferably internal to one or both of the characters. (An external obstacle, a.k.a 'April', is usually unsatisfying).

One of the problems with the Luke/Lorelai dynamic is the wobbly set-up. Luke, initially, was presented as only potential romantic interest. Only as season 1 went along was the romantic tension between the two amped up, but at that point we still didn't know what was keeping them apart, exactly.

'Run Away Little Boy' was what? Midway through the 2nd season? Only then did we get the obstacle presented clearly. And even then we didn't get a strong internal conflict within Lorelai. There was no pining for Luke, for instance. Instead, it was Max, Alex, Christopher, Digger, etc. Sure, she was attracted to Luke, but apparently not strongly so. Thus, the dissipation of the romantic tension between the two after the first season.

Yeah, before I knew anything about the temperament of ASP, I thought the writers had changed their minds about the romance between the two. Then, season 3 started and ended with dreams of each other...It was very confusing :/

[elang4]

3 hours ago, clack said:

A well-structured romantic comedy typically will present two people who obviously belong together, but who are kept apart through some obstacle or obstacles, preferably internal to one or both of the characters. (An external obstacle, a.k.a 'April', is usually unsatisfying).

One of the problems with the Luke/Lorelai dynamic is the wobbly set-up. Luke, initially, was presented as only potential romantic interest. Only as season 1 went along was the romantic tension between the two amped up, but at that point we still didn't know what was keeping them apart, exactly.

'Run Away Little Boy' was what? Midway through the 2nd season? Only then did we get the obstacle presented clearly. And even then we didn't get a strong internal conflict within Lorelai. There was no pining for Luke, for instance. Instead, it was Max, Alex, Christopher, Digger, etc. Sure, she was attracted to Luke, but apparently not strongly so. Thus, the dissipation of the romantic tension between the two after the first season.

Although she was always jealous when Luke dated someone else. And when she knew the Chilton mom liked him and she basically told him he couldn’t date her! I loved how she was allowed to date whoever but when Luke did, she was allowed to be upset and jealous. ?

[Smad]

22 hours ago, elang4 said:

Although she was always jealous when Luke dated someone else. And when she knew the Chilton mom liked him and she basically told him he couldn’t date her! I loved how she was allowed to date whoever but when Luke did, she was allowed to be upset and jealous. ?

But that doesn't need to have to do with anything romantic on her end. Lorelai feels ownership over a lot of people. Just look at Rory and how she acts when it comes to her parents, Chris or Rory's boyfriends. With Luke it's similar. Is there an element of romantic jealousy involved? Sure, in some ways. At least in S1 I would say so (and maybe the Chilton mom). But after that? I would say after that it's all about entitlement on her end.

[elang4]

1 hour ago, Smad said:

But that doesn't need to have to do with anything romantic on her end. Lorelai feels ownership over a lot of people. Just look at Rory and how she acts when it comes to her parents, Chris or Rory's boyfriends. With Luke it's similar. Is there an element of romantic jealousy involved? Sure, in some ways. At least in S1 I would say so (and maybe the Chilton mom). But after that? I would say after that it's all about entitlement on her end.

Yeah I can agree with that. She didn’t even try to get to know Nicole really. Although Luke is partly to blame about Nicole not really being comfortable with her around seeing as he talked about her on the first date. But Lorelai didn’t try either. She just decided she immediately didn’t like her.

[FictionLover]

17 minutes ago, elang4 said:

Yeah I can agree with that. She didn’t even try to get to know Nicole really. Although Luke is partly to blame about Nicole not really being comfortable with her around seeing as he talked about her on the first date. But Lorelai didn’t try either. She just decided she immediately didn’t like her.

When did she say she didn’t like her? I only remember Nicole giving her dirty looks at the Poe reading.

[ghoulina]

39 minutes ago, FictionLover said:

When did she say she didn’t like her? I only remember Nicole giving her dirty looks at the Poe reading.

Later that night Lorelai ends up staying with Luke because the Haddlestats decided to stay. As they're making up the bed, Nicole calls, but Luke doesn't mention Lor staying there. He admits that Lor is a bit of a sore point between them, as he talked about her on their first date. 

Edited March 8, 2018 by ghoulina

[FictionLover]

9 minutes ago, ghoulina said:

Later that night Lorelai ends up staying with Luke because the Haddlestats decided to stay. As they're making up the bed, Nicole calls, but Luke doesn't mention Lor staying there. He admits that Lor is a bit of a sore point between them, as he talked about her on their first date. 

I mean Lorelai not liking Nicole.

[Smad]

23 minutes ago, ghoulina said:

Later that night Lorelai ends up staying with Luke because the Haddlestats decided to stay. As they're making up the bed, Nicole calls, but Luke doesn't mention Lor staying there. He admits that Lor is a bit of a sore point between them, as he talked about her on their first date. 

Please don't use 'Lor', at least not in the L/L thread. I might not ship them anymore but that still makes me twitchy. 'Lor' is that thing Lorelai becomes whenever Chris is around. And I hate that thing.

I don't remember Lorelai ever saying she didn't like Nicole.

[elang4]

Ok maybe she didn’t specifically say she didn’t like Nicole but she didn’t make an effort with her either and when Luke got back with her in season 4, she acted so weird around her and then just told Luke Nicole didn’t like her. And even Rory called her out when she was ranting about Nicole being in their lives again as in her and Luke’s. I actually think it was right when Luke told her he didn’t marry her as well.

[stan4]

Well.

I didn't like Nicole, either.

I never got what Luke saw in her.

[elang4]

6 minutes ago, stan4 said:

Well.

I didn't like Nicole, either.

I never got what Luke saw in her.

I didn’t like her either tbh but I did find Lorelai annoying during that storyline though. I mean she was with Jason and she seemed obsessed about Nicole. It was like she didn’t want Luke to have anyone while she could date whoever she liked.

Although when Luke dated Nicole the first time, in season 3, I didn’t mind her. And I do genuinely think Luke liked her as well.

[Smad]

1 hour ago, elang4 said:

Although when Luke dated Nicole the first time, in season 3, I didn’t mind her. And I do genuinely think Luke liked her as well.

It's ASP's go to method. Introduce a character that is ok or even likeable and then give them a personality transplant as a short cut to get the audience to hate them and root for someone else. See also Dean, Sherry, Jess and even Luke. Nicole is in good company.

[stan4]

4 hours ago, elang4 said:

I didn’t like her either tbh but I did find Lorelai annoying during that storyline though. I mean she was with Jason and she seemed obsessed about Nicole. It was like she didn’t want Luke to have anyone while she could date whoever she liked.

Although when Luke dated Nicole the first time, in season 3, I didn’t mind her. And I do genuinely think Luke liked her as well.

No, you are right.

No matter what, why did L care?  And even if she cared, highly inappropriate to voice it.

 

Half my extended and 1/4 of my immediate family (not to mention many friends)  = lawyers, but I still feel comfortable saying you'd be nuts to get involved with one.

2 hours ago, Smad said:

It's ASP's go to method. Introduce a character that is ok or even likeable and then give them a personality transplant as a short cut to get the audience to hate them and root for someone else. See also Dean, Sherry, Jess and even Luke. Nicole is in good company.

This post is genius.

[ghoulina]

On 3/8/2018 at 1:15 PM, FictionLover said:

I mean Lorelai not liking Nicole.

I apologize. I mis-read that!!

 

23 hours ago, Smad said:

Please don't use 'Lor', at least not in the L/L thread. I might not ship them anymore but that still makes me twitchy. 'Lor' is that thing Lorelai becomes whenever Chris is around. And I hate that thing.

I don't remember Lorelai ever saying she didn't like Nicole.

Sorry? I cannot stand Chris myself, but I often use nicknames and abbreviations when typing for the sake of brevity. I'm usually multi-tasking when I'm on here.