Social Media and Behind the Scenes: AKA Everything Else Not "News and Media"

[wonderwall]

I would also bring up the interview where KC say something along the lines of it would be great to have a Laurel v Sara fight and you can see DR in the back saying 'or stupid.' All the guys in the back started laughing.

 

Oh jeez I never saw this... Damn I thought DR disliked her, but not this much. 

 

Yikes.

[AyChihuahua]

To be fair, he teased other castmates too. It wasn't just him picking on KC solely

There was a big difference bw what he said about the others. Like I tease a colleague about wearing goofy sweaters, another about collecting empty Snapple bottles n her office, and a third about being an untalented jackwagon. Which one do I not like?

 

Yeah, CH he mimicked as super intense with a gruff voice, SA he teased about the hand tic, EBR he basically spoke like a Valley Girl, and KC he not only said the line with an absolutely immobile face, the then DREW ATTENTION to the fact he was mimicking her with an absolutely immobile face by gesturing over his face and saying "no movement."

 

That is a master class in shade.

Edited March 7, 2016 by AyChihuahua

[bijoux]

Here's the link to the EW Interview at SDCC where KC corrected DR for saying "Canary"

http://video.ew.com/v/107331208/the-salmon-ladders-will-be-back-next-season-of-arrow-aka-more-abs.htm?

Did I miss DR flipping the bird or is that in another interview?

[Chasity]

Did I miss DR flipping the bird or is that in another interview?

It's in that one. It starts a few seconds after the 3:00 mark.

[Genki]

I can see the problem of KC being 2nd billed on paper, but not in reality making things on Arrow more awkward than they need to be. The Canary vs. the Black Canary for instance. 

 

It probably stops proper promotion, especially notice how often Oliver only represents Arrow in the CW promos? Then there were the weirdly & carefully worded tweets when we suspected Emily's contract was locked down. In the show we all know how things are written around to incorporate Laurel.

 

I can see this leading to some frustrations, and it coming out at certain times. I have a colleague who is a nice guy and all but I don't want to work with him because he is not competent in his current role. In another role I think he will do well, but sometime my frustration with his work colours how I react to him.

Edited March 8, 2016 by Genki

[Starfish35]

I have wondered sometimes how much the lack of Olicity promotion has to do with BTS politics having to do with KC. She still is technically the "leading lady" so it might have been awkward to pass over her to do promotion with EBR.

[Ann Mack]

It's in that one. It starts a few seconds after the 3:00 mark.

Awkward David - "I didn't think I needed to say Black" yeah...alright! I don't understand why she felt the need to clarify. Most don't think she earned that title and being sort of snarky because it's not attached to me made her look sort of petty. Bless Willa for trying to soften the situation by laughing awkwardly at it all.

Edited March 8, 2016 by Ann Mack

[AyChihuahua]

All this leads me to think he doesn't like her, and if he doesn't like her, he REALLY doesn't like her. 

[Primal Slayer]

So many shady videos! I don't think David necessarily dislikes Katie but just from watching these videos, he seems like the type of guy who just speaks whats on his mind and isn't good at filtering which I like.

[Primal Slayer]

Awkward David - "I didn't think I needed to say Black" yeah...alright! I don't understand why she felt the need to clarify. Most don't think she earned that title and being sort of snarky because it's not attached to me made her look sort of petty. Bless Willa for trying to soften the situation by laughing awkwardly at it all.

I think she probably knew of the whole Canary debacle and was of course excited to finally become Black Canary, she didn't want any confusion with The Canary. Though it also seemed to just be in jest.

[foreverevolving]

Min 4:05 when KC said a showdown between BC and WC would be great and David said "or stupid."

How did I miss that the first time around!!

 

I do wonder what it was that Stephan or Paul said that caused David to give one of them the third finger..

I do remember how eye rolling it was with the all Canary/Black Canary thing.. Everyone knew who he meant.. she didn't have to correct him, and especially not like 5 seconds later, it just looked like it took her few seconds to process it.. which..

[Guest]

I like DR. He's no-nonsense and not fake. 

 

The awkward thing for me about correcting DR over the Canary/Black Canary thing is that his character actually calls Laurel 'Canary' in 401, which I assume they already had the script for and were going to film a couple of days later. So it was just unnecessary, IMO. Everyone knew what he meant. 

Edited March 8, 2016 by Guest

[thegirlsleuth]

My recollection was that at the time David said Canary there had already been three or four instances at Comiccon of costars referring to Caity as the Black Canary.  Candice did two or three times--going so far as hashtagging Caity #blackcanary.  At some point I started to assume that it was intentional, and I'm sure by the time that David slipped that Katie was at the end of her rope, although making a big deal about it made it worse.

[wonderwall]

My recollection was that at the time David said Canary there had already been three or four instances at Comiccon of costars referring to Caity as the Black Canary.  Candice did two or three times--going so far as hashtagging Caity #blackcanary.  At some point I started to assume that it was intentional, and I'm sure by the time that David slipped that Katie was at the end of her rope, although making a big deal about it made it worse.

 

This is what happens when the lesser takes on the identity of someone 100000x more badass. Everyone should've seen it coming.

[lemotomato]

My recollection was that at the time David said Canary there had already been three or four instances at Comiccon of costars referring to Caity as the Black Canary.  Candice did two or three times--going so far as hashtagging Caity #blackcanary.  At some point I started to assume that it was intentional, and I'm sure by the time that David slipped that Katie was at the end of her rope, although making a big deal about it made it worse.

CP didn't seem to give too many fucks about it either. Heh.

[wonderwall]

If I wasn't so confident about my fave, I'd probably care about the title too, because Laurel's title far exceeded her capabilities.

 

Black Canary by name > White Canary, but in every other aspect of being a vigilante, Sara > Laurel. So I can understand why KC would feel protective of it. It's the only thing that Laurel has over Sara and I feel like she knows that. 

Edited March 8, 2016 by wonderwall

[wonderwall]

Saying CL was not brought on to be a regular doesn’t necessarily hold a great deal of weight given that EBR was brought in for a single episode and is now the de factor female lead.  Things change. 

 

I also don’t think it is completely fair to say things were taken away from KC.  She was brought on to play a specific role and clearly many people do not feel she met her obligations.  She did not work as the love interest.  She has had limited success as a mask.  The role was not a gift and she has been in the business long enough to know that things change and her willingness to adapt seems to have been limited. 

 

People get hired for jobs all of the time where the match looks good on paper and turns out not to be.  When it becomes apparent that they are not a good fit and/or cannot meet the responsibilities of the job they are move to a new position or let go.  KC seems to have been given quite a few chances. 

 

You make some good points...

 

I've always felt like if KC played Laurel with more nuance in season 1 (Arguably the best season for Laurel -- and a season where I'm sure people at least tried to like her before writing her off), the character would've been a bit more successful. But there's no way of knowing this. Regardless, her character never really worked and in the end the writers owed it to themselves and the show (who employs hundreds of other people ) to keep people interested in said show to keep it afloat, and that meant bringing in Sara and Felicity. 

 

Was it crappy to not tell KC about bringing in CL and making her BC? Yes. But that's the only thing they owed her. Because you're right, in the end, this role isn't a gift, it's a job, and when actors underperform or their characters aren't well received, it makes sense to reduce their role or kill off the said character. It's like any other job. People get demoted or laid off... 

[looptab]

Min 4:05 when KC said a showdown between BC and WC would be great and David said "or stupid."

I thought he said stupid in answer to something one of the guys said. I had the impression he wasn't paying attention to what was being said at all. 

I didn't notice the middle finger in the other clip the first time- now I'm curious what they said to him, haha. Also a cute thing from that clip, Stephen doing that "knee behind the knee" (don't really know how to describe it) to KC.

[Starfish35]

Continuing the discussion from the spoiler thread:

I actually don't believe that CL was brought in as a placeholder, regardless of what TPTB have said. I've written about this in other posts, but nothing about how they handled that made sense for a placeholder character. But then they ended up dumping her and that didn't make sense either if she wasn't a placeholder. However, someone said in the Spoiler thread that the EPs actually wanted to recast Laurel or write her out after the pilot episode, and the network (CW) said no. If that is true, then everything makes sense. (The following is my speculation based on that.) Sara was a backdoor way to get their own BC on the show, and if she proved popular enough the CW might be more willing to let go of KC (which would be why no one talked to KC about bringing CL on). However it didn't work. The CW dug in their heels, said no way, and so we got the swerve at the end of the season with Sara deciding she's still a killer and going back to the league, leaving her jacket to set up Laurel as BC.

*shrug* It's speculation of course, but it makes a lot more sense to me than the idea that they brought in Sara as a placeholder, gave her a BC costume, a Canary Cry device, Sin, the Clocktower, the skills, and season-long arcs both in present day and flashbacks (arcs, btw, that had only minimal impact on or involvement with Laurel except at the very end), only to toss her out like yesterday's trash.

Edited March 8, 2016 by Starfish35

[lemotomato]

^^ Also, TPTB had her date Oliver, fulfilling the GA/BC comics romance component.

 

I don't think Sara was just a placeholder when she was first brought in. DC sent CL a stack of BC comic books to read when she was hired. I remember even SA referred to her as Black Canary in social media posts after her first appearance in season 2. Then something happened before they started to plan season 3 and the show ended up doing what they did.

Edited March 8, 2016 by lemotomato

[SmallScreenDiva]

I'm thoroughly enjoying these Delicity GIFS:

 

 

 

 

[looptab]

^^ Also, TPTB had her date Oliver, fulfilling the GA/BC comics romance component.

 

I don't think Sara was just a placeholder when she was first brought in. DC sent CL a stack of BC comic books to read when she was hired. I remember even SA referred to her as Black Canary in social media posts after her first appearance in season 2. Then something happened before they started to plan season 3 and the show ended up doing what they did.

But at SDCC before season 2, during the interview with Ausiello, when he asked if it was true that they were introducing Black Canary, Stephen said it was a character that had to do with the development of BC but wasn't it. Or something like that.

I'm saying this not to favor an argument over another, just to show that they've been weird about this BC the whole time, going back and forth according to the circumstances.

[wonderwall]

But at SDCC before season 2, during the interview with Ausiello, when he asked if it was true that they were introducing Black Canary, Stephen said it was a character that had to do with the development of BC but wasn't it. Or something like that.

I'm saying this not to favor an argument over another, just to show that they've been weird about this BC the whole time, going back and forth according to the circumstances.

Idk if that was always the case why would KC be as upset as she was back then? She keeps telling people in her interviews that she tool CL coming onto the show really hard.

I don't think she would've taken it that hard if she knew that CLs role was temporary or if CL was just playing the canary and not black canary...

[looptab]

Idk if that was always the case why would KC be as upset as she was back then? She keeps telling people in her interviews that she tool CL coming onto the show really hard.

I don't think she would've taken it that hard if she knew that CLs role was temporary or if CL was just playing the canary and not black canary...

I have no idea, but maybe because people kept referring to Sara as the Black Canary even if that was the plan. Or maybe because she feared that the plan would change after the EPs saw the positive reactions to Sara. I really don't know :)

[catrox14]

Didn't Andrew Kreisberg say "We've found our Black Canary" when they announced Caity? I totally agree that saying it was always the plan is hogwash.

[Starfish35]

SA also once said during season two that he thought that he, Caity Lotz, and Grant Gustin, were playing the "definitive" versions of their characters (in reference to different people playing those characters in the movies).

It would also explain why Laurel was sidelined for so much of season two, until the later episodes.

[lemotomato]

For what it's worth, I found SA's tweet where he posted a photo of Oliver and Sara and tagged it #BlackCanary. But then EW did a write up about the tweet where they quoted AK:

Fans are expecting Laural Lance (Katie Cassidy) to become Black Canary, of course, and producer Andrew Kreisberg assures that will still happen – eventually: “Everyone knows that Laurel Lance is the Black Canary … But how we get from A to B is the story of our show … Laurel Lance right now is a lawyer with a lot of heart and a lot of humanity and courage. But it takes more than that to put on the mask and go out and fight crime. Our series is the evolution of that.”

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Edited March 8, 2016 by lemotomato

[wonderwall]

Of course it takes more than humanity and courage to put on a mask. It also takes the incessant need to SWF your recently deceased sister and trading your addiction of booze and pills with fighting.

Also quick question... Has laurel ever been shown to have courage? Because you can't be courageous without fear and I never felt as though laurel ever feared for her life or feared anything whilst out in the field or in the courtroom.

Edited March 8, 2016 by wonderwall

[bijoux]

I think this is SA's whole Sky1 interview. Just scroll down for the remaining four parts.

[Midnight Lullaby]

I thought he said stupid in answer to something one of the guys said. I had the impression he wasn't paying attention to what was being said at all. 

I didn't notice the middle finger in the other clip the first time- now I'm curious what they said to him, haha. Also a cute thing from that clip, Stephen doing that "knee behind the knee" (don't really know how to describe it) to KC.

LOL, to me it looked like he was stretching his legs because he bent both. She thought he was nudging her but he didn't even smile..I doubt it was intentional.

[dtissagirl]

[sorry, this became massive.] This is what I think the full timeline went about --

 

Pilot:

 

. Laurel doesn't work, and they know it. Showrunners want KC out. Either recast, or Laurel written out. CW says no because she's their plant. They agree to keep her in.

 

Season 1:

 

. Two weeks into shooting, EBR falls into their lap. [No, really, shooting started July 18, 2012. EBR's first day on set was August 3.] The WB loves her. The showrunners give her a couple of extra episodes, quickly realize she's a pro, and as the season progresses, integrate her into the A-plot of superhero shenanigans in the way that was planned for Laurel. Laurel is kept firmly in the B-plot as the love interest and the girl in the love triangle.

 

. Confirming that the CW plants actors, they hire Colton Haynes about a minute after the announcement he's leaving Teen Wolf, because they want the built-in audience of very young people he brings with him.

 

. Arrow gets an early renewal for S2 on Feb 11, 2013.

 

. EBR is announced as a series regular on Feb 12, 2013.

 

. 114 airs Feb 13, 2013, and Felicity is made into the lead female sidekick.

 

. Total spec: I wouldn't be surprised if the showrunners wanted to kill Laurel instead of Tommy, but the CW said no again.

 

Hiatus between S1 and S2:

 

. Showrunners still want a Black Canary, so they're on the lookout for an actress with martial arts background.

 

. The CW initially rejects Caity Lotz for not having the proper figure, but eventually caves.

 

Season 2:

 

. They have a problem: 2 narrative roles [Love Interest and Black Canary] to be filled by 3 female characters.

 

. Felicity gets the leading lady love interest treatment in 2A -- from 201 to 209, she and Oliver are written as the leads in a rom-com, and Felicity is the character used to debut Barry Allen into this universe.

 

. Sara is Black Canary for all intents and purposes. Comic book Black Canary background and storylines are given to her. LoA, Sin, etc. She's in the A-plot and the flashbacks, she's quickly integrated into the team, she's given a standing set [the Clocktower], she's given her own set of villains [the LoA minions coming after her], and midway through the season, she's given the love interest narrative role*.

 

[* We later figure out Sara is made love interest as a narrative decoy, because the true love interest is Felicity, but we won't learn that until the totally not at all fake "I love you" in the season finale.]

 

. Meanwhile Laurel is still kept on B-plot land. By mid season, she's sorta dating the 2nd banana evil dude, and her downward spiral is written in a complete could-go-either-way manner: she could come out of it as either a hero or a villain. She's given plots for both outcomes: on one hand she's gaslighted by Blood, on the other, she blackmails the District Attorney. Helena even comes back for the ~very special Birds of Prey episode and goes full omen on Laurel. "Once you let the darkness inside, it never comes out."

 

. But then, a major setback: right after Sara and Oliver hook up in 213, the CW pulls Arrow out of the schedule for 3 weeks because they don't wanna compete with the Winter Olympics. Right in the middle of February Sweeps. Fan response to Sara/Oliver is largely negative, and the 3 week delay made it worse. And when the show comes back, the ratings take a dive. And they stay down until the end of the season.

 

. Informed spec: the CW looked at the drop in ratings, put it on Sara, and told the showrunners that this Black Canary experiment didn't work. Give it to Laurel instead.

 

eta: . While at it, the CW [or the WB. Or both] also told them to stop giving Oliver other romantic interests that are not Felicity. They don't work, and the audience will reject every single one of them for the rest of ever.

 

Hiatus between S2 and S3:

 

. After months of almost total media blackout, KC starts showing up for cons, and posting workout pics, and wearing the black leather jacket 24/7. We didn't know it back then, but now it's easy to conclude she was told Sara was getting killed, and Laurel was gonna be made BC in S3.

 

. They actually manage to fool fandom during SDCC by bringing Caity Lotz to the con, and lying through their teeth about how much presence Sara would have in the upcoming season.

 

Season 3:

 

. They kill Sara, the backlash is much bigger than anticipated. The CW was wrong.

 

. But they now have solved the problem of 3 characters vs. 2 narrative roles. Felicity is Love Interest, Laurel is to become Black Canary.

 

. The season is depressing as fuck, but ratings are better, and then actively improve because of the crossover.

 

. For the first time since early S1, Laurel has an A-plot storyline. They need to kill Oliver for it to happen, but she gets the spotlight, and is finally made into Black Canary mid-way through the season. Reception is mixed. Post 313, she goes back to being a mostly background player, though.

 

. I don't think we realized it back then, but for all intents and purposes, Laurel's hero journey was done once she became BC. She never even got a BC storyline from the comic books after becoming BC, like Sara did in S2.

 

. Meanwhile, Brandon Routh failed to impress anyone on the planet as leading man, and Berlanti Prod re-works their new spinoff into a team show. Probably to rub salt on the CW's wound , the showrunners [most likely backed by the WB] decide Sara is gonna be part of the new show*.

 

[*Reaction to the news that Sara was getting resurrected is overwhelmingly positive.]

 

, The showrunners also decide to write out Colton Haynes -- the other CW plant.

 

. After one minute and twenty-two episodes of misery porn, S3 ends on a happily ever after note. That ending is sold as the final piece of a 3-season trilogy. It almost looks like a series finale, even though it's not.

 

Hiatus between S3 and S4:

 

. S4 is sold as a much happier season.

 

. The single thing about Laurel's storyline we hear from the showrunners is she's gonna be involved n bringing Sara back.

 

. KC says she's gonna have a hand in launching LoT at SDCC.

 

Season 4:

 

. Arrow poos on everyone's head and sets up a mystery grave flash-forward in the first episode.

 

. As the season progresses, it becomes clear that bringing Sara back is the only storyline they wrote for Laurel. It last 3 episodes, from 403-405. Laurel gets horribly panned by critics, but they're also happy to have Sara back.

 

. Laurel has a scene with Sara in the LoT premiere, explaining why KC said Laurel had a hand in launching that show.

 

. From 406 to 415, Laurel has had no narrative role on Arrow. She's back to background character with no narrative role and nothing to do to advance the A-plot.

 

. Meanwhile, Sara's the breakout character on LoT.

 

. And as of right now, Laurel's leading the Who's In the Grave speculation.

 

...

 

... I can't believe I wrote all that.

Edited March 8, 2016 by dtissagirl

[JenMD]

. Arrow gets an early renewal for S2 on Feb 11, 2013.

 

. EBR is announced as a series regular on Feb 12, 2013.

 

. 114 airs Feb 13, 2013, and Felicity is made into the lead female sidekick.

 

 

As a fun little add on to this set of dates, Feb. 14, 2013 was the first mention of Olicity on twitter by SA according to this post. 

[looptab]

Wow, it was that early? I had no idea, I thought it started near the end of the season :)

[AyChihuahua]

I think about this show way too much. I am convinced SA loves Felicity, and hates Laurel. The CHARACTERS, not their respective actresses. I'm betting he's more or less okay with both of the actresses. But dude is super-competitive and knows, everyone knows, really, that O/L was a disaster. I'm sure he hated being associated with that huge fail and so was very happy to see it replaced with something that worked. He also hates the dumbing-down of Oliver's abilities, and I can see that being somewhat due to KC's inability to do anything stunt-wise, but forcing a lot of takes to try, taking away any time for him to do something cool (KC herself has admitted not being able to twirl her stick on-camera). 

 

I'd really love to know how much they dislike her and how much they just dislike working with her. I mean DR shades her, but also hugs her at cons...but then, they're ACTORS, so presumably they could fake liking each other. NEED BTS TELL-ALL!

[dtissagirl]

In terms of production being disrupted, my experience has been that actors hating each other is a lot less relevant than when THE CREW hates an actor. Actors hate each other all the time, but crews work around that. Hell, crews expect that. But if an actor is hated by the crew? That's when shit happens.

[looptab]

I think at some point in the future we will get one. I bet SA is dying to write it.

@dtissagirl, as in? could you expand on that? :)

Edited March 8, 2016 by looptab

[Starfish35]

It makes me wonder how much network (CW) interference is to blame for turning Laurel into a CW-fied Rachel Dawes, or if that's all on the show creators. Because I thought I'd read or heard somehow that KC has said that early versions of the script that she read had Laurel much closer to BC (more skills maybe?) than she turned out to be in the pilot.

[Chaser]

As a fun little add on to this set of dates, Feb. 14, 2013 was the first mention of Olicity on twitter by SA according to this post. 

Such a lowkey tweet with so many meanings. "I choose her! Oliver and Felicity Forever! Heart This! Olicity sitting in a tree K-I-S-S-I-N-G."

 

I think about this show way too much. I am convinced SA loves Felicity, and hates Laurel. The CHARACTERS, not their respective actresses. I'm betting he's more or less okay with both of the actresses. But dude is super-competitive and knows, everyone knows, really, that O/L was a disaster. I'm sure he hated being associated with that huge fail and so was very happy to see it replaced with something that worked. He also hates the dumbing-down of Oliver's abilities, and I can see that being somewhat due to KC's inability to do anything stunt-wise, but forcing a lot of takes to try, taking away any time for him to do something cool (KC herself has admitted not being able to twirl her stick on-camera). 

 

I'd really love to know how much they dislike her and how much they just dislike working with her. I mean DR shades her, but also hugs her at cons...but then, they're ACTORS, so presumably they could fake liking each other. NEED BTS TELL-ALL!

All the mixed signals with the cast relationships. Whenever I see KC interacting at Cons with SA and DR, they seem to get along great. But separate them and its a different story. It's one thing to throw shade on a character (I agree that SA doesn't have much time for Laurel), but they have aimed it at KC. When I saw DR's IG pic to KC, my first thought was it was his version of 'What's good?'

[dtissagirl]

@dtissagirl, as in? could you expand on that? :)

 

Just -- actors hating each other can be easily worked around. Sure, a couple of production assistants' lives are gonna be turned into the hell that it is to keep two crybaby divas away from each other as much as humanly possible, but if the feud doesn't cause production problems, the crew couldn't care less. And the other actors who don't have anything to do with it will be kept insulated from it too. Trailers, drivers, assistants, they're all there to keep actors in a happy bubble. And networks/studios/showrunners will make sure the happy bubble is maintained as much as possible.

 

Crews just want to keep the schedule. If an actor is causing actual production problems, like delays or constant rescheduling, for whatever reason [always being late, always drunk/high, coming to set unprepared, etc], the crew is gonna turn against them.

[nksarmi]

You make some good points...

 

I've always felt like if KC played Laurel with more nuance in season 1 (Arguably the best season for Laurel -- and a season where I'm sure people at least tried to like her before writing her off), the character would've been a bit more successful. But there's no way of knowing this. Regardless, her character never really worked and in the end the writers owed it to themselves and the show (who employs hundreds of other people ) to keep people interested in said show to keep it afloat, and that meant bringing in Sara and Felicity. 

 

Was it crappy to not tell KC about bringing in CL and making her BC? Yes. But that's the only thing they owed her. Because you're right, in the end, this role isn't a gift, it's a job, and when actors underperform or their characters aren't well received, it makes sense to reduce their role or kill off the said character. It's like any other job. People get demoted or laid off... 

 

in regards to Laurel in season one - does anyone think KC even suggested that maybe Laurel and Oliver shouldn't sleep together? 

 

I'm asking because that was the point where I stopped liking Laurel and following it up with her season two addiction arc combined with her venom toward her sister (even if Sara and Oliver were wrong, Laurel didn't look good in that situation either) - I could never really like her again.  I've never really hated her, but liking her has been almost out of the question for me.

 

And I would think that if the "love story" between Oliver and Laurel was officially being nixed by then - that maybe KC would have wanted to save her character's dignity and not have her sleep with her lying, cheating ex when she was supposed to be fighting to get back together with his best friend.  I mean, holy shit - I would have thrown a tantrum to get out of that scene.  It didn't change anything about the end of the season except make Oliver and Laurel look bad.

 

But see this is where all of KC's interviews make me thing she is part of the reason the character of Laurel is so damn bad.  I think KC wanted to hang on to the love interest title enough that she didn't see the handwriting on the wall and oppose that scene.  Her head canon of Oliver and Laurel tells me that.  If KC had wanted Laurel written with more class and dignity - I think she would have gotten it. 

[looptab]

Crews just want to keep the schedule. If an actor is causing actual production problems, like delays or constant rescheduling, for whatever reason [always being late, always drunk/high, coming to set unprepared, etc], the crew is gonna turn against them.

That's the part that's not very clear to me. What would that entail? Sorry, I know I'm a pain :)

[Delphi]

in regards to Laurel in season one - does anyone think KC even suggested that maybe Laurel and Oliver shouldn't sleep together?

I'm asking because that was the point where I stopped liking Laurel and following it up with her season two addiction arc combined with her venom toward her sister (even if Sara and Oliver were wrong, Laurel didn't look good in that situation either) - I could never really like her again. I've never really hated her, but liking her has been almost out of the question for me.

And I would think that if the "love story" between Oliver and Laurel was officially being nixed by then - that maybe KC would have wanted to save her character's dignity and not have her sleep with her lying, cheating ex when she was supposed to be fighting to get back together with his best friend. I mean, holy shit - I would have thrown a tantrum to get out of that scene. It didn't change anything about the end of the season except make Oliver and Laurel look bad.

But see this is where all of KC's interviews make me thing she is part of the reason the character of Laurel is so damn bad. I think KC wanted to hang on to the love interest title enough that she didn't see the handwriting on the wall and oppose that scene. Her head canon of Oliver and Laurel tells me that. If KC had wanted Laurel written with more class and dignity - I think she would have gotten it.

I don't know if she wanted Laurel to sleep with Oliver. But I'm sure Katie wanted something for her character to do. She's not a love interest, she wasn't the Black Canary. She wasn't doing the lawyer thing as much. She was basically just there. I just read an interview with Michael Socha who played Will Scarlett in OUaT and he just talks about how depressed he was that he was locked up in contract, stuck in Vancouver away from his friends and family but not even working. Katie probably felt like that to a lesser extent. She was literally the second billed actor with absolutely nothing to do with the plot. The role of Laurel is not a gift, but at the same time you just don't keep actors around because you may, one day, have a story for their character.

[nksarmi]

I don't know if she wanted Laurel to sleep with Oliver. But I'm sure Katie wanted something for her character to do. She's not a love interest, she wasn't the Black Canary. She wasn't doing the lawyer thing as much. She was basically just there. I just read an interview with Michael Socha who played Will Scarlett in OUaT and he just talks about how depressed he was that he was locked up in contract, stuck in Vancouver away from his friends and family but not even working. Katie probably felt like that to a lesser extent. She was literally the second billed actor with absolutely nothing to do with the plot. The role of Laurel is not a gift, but at the same time you just don't keep actors around because you may, one day, have a story for their character.

 

What a great example!  I stopped watching Once the season he was made a regular, but I do remember thinking not to long ago "I wonder if they ever did anything with Will Scarlett."

 

But I really don't think Laurel compares.  In his instance, he played a character on a spin-off that had a lot to do and then was brought into the parent show when the spin-off was cancelled because they just didn't want to let him go.  And as far as I know - they kind of ruined his character's original story arc to do it (I don't know if he ever got back to his true love because I'm not watching anymore).

 

In regards to Laurel - she might not have been THE love interest (Oliver), but she was A love interest (Tommy) and she was the future Black Canary (I am convinced it was in her contract and they had to make her BC before they could get rid of her). So it was all a matter of how is this character going to develop. 

 

I suspect that if KC had demanded that Laurel have some dignity and not sleep with Oliver when everyone still thought of her as being with Tommy that would have been ideal.  First, if they ever did circle back around to Laurel and Oliver, they still would have put the old version of their romance to bed and any later connection would be as people who had grown and learned to trust* each other and were in no way connected to their old dysfunctional relationship.

 

But more importantly if it was clear they weren't going to have Oliver and Laurel in a romantic relationship - they needed to be equals and partners and sleeping with him like that did not further her development in that capacity.  I mean even if I forever overlook the fact that Laurel was given "instant" skills - I can never overlook the fact that Oliver never respected her, never trusted her, and spent all of season three acting like he didn't want her around. 

 

I think I read somewhere that SA asked them to stop making Oliver sleep with so many women and all of a sudden things tone way down on that front.  So I think if KC had said "Can my character have some more dignity and just be over Oliver?  And maybe if they do get together later it will be because she fell in love with him again after she knows he's the Green Arrow?" that they would have gladly made adjustments that would have improved Laurel a lot and still given her the potential to be his partner BC.

 

* I am almost 100% certain that not only is Laurel the only member of the team that Oliver did not welcome into the lair himself - she is also the only member of the team that he didn't TELL himself (I know Felicity told Barry but he isn't part of Oliver's team).  That means he NEVER trusted Laurel and that's a bad sign for her overall story arc.

 

 

 

Edited March 8, 2016 by nksarmi

[looptab]

But she had stuff to do in S1, didn't she?

[dtissagirl]

That's the part that's not very clear to me. What would that entail? Sorry, I know I'm a pain :)

 

It can be a different number of things. From guest directors having to deal with a pissed off crew + production delays, and deciding not to come back to the show, to key crew members looking for different gigs to get away from a messy production, to  heads of department going to the showrunners with a complaint.

 

And sometimes there's pettiness. Filming the actor in bad light, blocking the scene in a way that minimizes the actor's presence, etc.

Edited March 8, 2016 by dtissagirl

[looptab]

Wow. Thank you for answering :)

[Delphi]

But she had stuff to do in S1, didn't she?

To an extent she did. She had Damages early on. And Home Invasion late in the season. Those are pretty much the only centrics she got. I'm honestly surprised they included Home Invasion so late in the season by which point it felt like they were very clearly moving in the opposite direction for the character than originally intended. By the end of season Laurel was less of a character and more of a prop to work the Tommy/Oliver/Dark Archer plot.

Edited March 8, 2016 by Delphi

[wonderwall]

Crews just want to keep the schedule. If an actor is causing actual production problems, like delays or constant rescheduling, for whatever reason [always being late, always drunk/high, coming to set unprepared, etc], the crew is gonna turn against them.

 

This is why I heard working on the Supernatural set as a crewmember was the worst job because Jensen/Jared/Misha always goofed off on set. 

[looptab]

I think wanting to recreate the VD triangle was a big mistake. Luckily they dropped it fast.

[quarks]

The first five episodes of Arrow - which give a sense of what the showrunners originally had in mind - strongly suggest that the original idea was to have Laurel frequently out in the field with Oliver, basically working with him whenever the law couldn't bring the bad guys down, and vice versa whenever arrows couldn't really solve the bad guy problem. There's also a very strong hint that originally, the plan was to have Thea figure out the truth by the end of the first season - as one of the cliffhangers - and joining/training with Oliver in the second season, as Tommy slowly turned evil. The first season would therefore focus on the tensions between fighting bad guys legally (Laurel) versus through vigilantism (Oliver.)  Slowly, Oliver would gain more respect for the law, and eventually choose to work within the law as Mayor, while Laurel would continue to realize the law's limitations, and eventually decide to take up vigilantism, bringing them together to fight crime in seasons four or five.

 

It was a nice idea, but it immediately ran into a number of issues. One, as I noted back when we were all doing the first season rewatch, the original setup presented a huge problem: if Laurel Lance really is a great, determined attorney that bad guys fear in court (as she's described in those first few episodes), then the city doesn't need a vigilante. In order to make Oliver work, Laurel had to be made to look incompetent. And on TV, incompetent characters typically only work in comedies or in side roles; if you do much more with them than that, they become hated. See, Laurel, and to a lesser extent, Thea.  

 

(See, also, the way The Flash, Supergirl and Legends of Tomorrow have all gone well out of their way to establish that all of their characters, except arguably Kendra and now Wally, are highly competent at something within the first several episodes, almost certainly in a reaction to the fan reaction to Thea and Laurel on Arrow. And even Kendra has been shown to learn flying and fighting and inspiring people to fix timeships in deep space relatively quickly, and Wally is good with cars.)

 

The second problem was those horrible voiceovers, which forced them to bring Diggle into the secret a lot earlier than they planned, as the producers have admitted.  Once Diggle was in on the secret, however, Oliver didn't need to discuss bad guys with Laurel.  And although Diggle didn't always go into the field in the first season, it made considerably more sense for Oliver to take the Special Forces trained guy with him instead of the "I can hit some bar bouncers and I know where my shotgun is" Laurel.

 

Arrow didn't completely abandon the law versus vigilantism plan - it's still happening this season, with Oliver choosing (temporarily) to fight evil through legal means this season by running for mayor.  But that's brought back the Laurel problem again: if Oliver has decided that the best way to fight law in the light, then why is one of the Star City DA's running around at night in leather?  Especially given that most of the Star City DAs are dead, so presumably there's a lot of paperwork to catch up on that could be done after hours in the evening, and the show has even said, in script, that among their many many many other deficiencies, the Star City police are also not good at filling in their paperwork properly. We haven't gotten any scenes to explain this, partly because Arrow as always is trying to burn through plot at rapid speed, partly because I suspect that any investigation/discussion of the DA's office would involve hiring more day players, which Arrow is doing a bit more of this year, but still avoiding whenever possible, but also because the fundamental concept was flawed from the beginning.  The vigilantism/superhero thing works for Daredevil because he's both a lawyer and a guy with superpowers. He needs to eat, so he needs a job; and the law job is a cover for his night activities.  And it's at least arguable that fighting crime at night is the best use of his superpowers. Laurel also needs a job, so that makes sense, but the whole idea that it's more effective for a DA to fight crime by running around on rooftops at night wearing leather was really never explored, and took a real hit this season when that turned out to be so ineffective that she needed to call another superhero out of retirement - a superhero who, one episode later, decided that the running around the rooftops thing wasn't really working for him either, and he needed to got the mayoral route - and dig a second superhero out of the grave and send that superhero on a time travel mission.  That is, interesting concept, failed execution. Oh, Arrow.