S03.E05: Contorno

[car54]

Only on this show would we see Hannibal essentially slither down the Inspector's innards to get to the ground.  Blech.

 

I'm so glad I know that Will Graham meets someone and marries. Otherwise I'd be more worried about how messed up he is right now.

 

I like this Alana much more than last season's Alana.  Anger becomes her.

Fishburne lost some weight since the last big fight--he looked really lean and mean--I'm sure it was Jack's grief, and not going to Hannibal's for dinner much lately.   

Hopefully this will get Hannibal on his way out of Italy and on with the story.  Italy seems to be kind of a slow, Idylic place--I think once they get back to the US things will take off again.

[numbersix]

 

I'm sure it was Jack's grief, and not going to Hannibal's for dinner much lately.

 

Or the onset of an eating disorder when he came to grips with what he had been eating at Hannibal's all that time. Actually, I think there was an aside in Silence of the Lambs (the book) about a former frequent guest of Hannibal's, someone affiliated with the Baltimore Symphony, that developed anorexia after Hannibal the Cannibal was caught.

Edited July 7, 2015 by numbersix

[DeadlyEuphoric]

I do think it's true Jack meant to kill him by tossing him out the window - but, as it did not, why was the next few minutes not filled up with police cars and police swarming everywhere - Hannibal was a mess - Florence is not that big - I couldn't even manage to get lost there and I actually tried.  I suppose he could jump into the Arno but even then, security cameras would have seen at which point he went into the river - oh, I don't know - I can't believe I'm even trying to make sense of this thing.

I am pretty certain Hannibal killed Pazzi in the middle of the night when not that many people are out in the streets to witness Dr Fell throw some guy out the window. And between him killing Pazzi and his fight with Jack that ensued, not that much time passed. The police will be swarming the place by the time someone else sees Pazzi and calls them, I assume, but as the episode ended with Hannibal fleeing, we don't get to see the aftermath. At least, not yet...

 

I am curious if Jack will tell them that it was Hannibal who did it, and that Mr. Fell is Hannibal or if he is going to flee the scene too not wanting to get involved legally/officially. I have a feeling he is going to flee too so wouldn't be surprise if there is still no manhunt for Hannibal. I think Pazzi's wife also doesn't know the details so it is not like she can give the police some info, either, right?

 

Once Hannibal was out the window and on his feet, Jack no longer had the element of surprise on his side. If he had run down the steps to attack Hannibal in the street, i have no doubt Hannibal would have been MORE than ready for him, and that would be the end of Jack, not of Hannibal.

 

I don't know that. Not sure anyone but the writers know that.

 

So I'm in the minority being shocked at Will getting tossed off the train. Like I posted, I jumped a foot in the air and shouted a reactionary word at the tv. Maybe it's because I'm one of the few who actually likes the character?

 

Oh yeah, wounded or not, Hannibal is always dangerous, especially faced head-on. And maybe Jack did go after him, we don't really know, as the episode ended with Jack going away from the window as Hannibal flees. Maybe he did rush after him, but Hannibal who knows Florence and the surrounding buildings much better than him managed to give him the slip. Could happen. Hannibal is limping, yes, but isn't going that slow and running for his life I think he will suffer the pain and give it his most to get away and slow down and take it easy only when he is safely away.

 

Besides, if Jack doesn't want to land in jail, he probably should not be killing anyone in the middle of the street, especially not someone who is obviously wounded, armless and trying to run away. He could probably make a "self-defence" case out of killing Hannibal indoors "I saw him trying to kill Pazzi, ran upstairs to stop it, but I was too late, then he came at me with the knife, we fought, he fell out of the windows..." is a story that he can make work, "the man is a serial killer that had to be put down so I did what I had to do and finished him off as he was trying to flee" is not so much...

 

 

So I'm in the minority being shocked at Will getting tossed off the train. Like I posted, I jumped a foot in the air and shouted a reactionary word at the tv. Maybe it's because I'm one of the few who actually likes the character?

 

Oh I absolutely love Will, to the point I am tempted to read Red Dragon. Chyio annoys me (and not just because she threw Will out of the train but her "I am so much wiser, better, grounded and moral than you" speeches to Will. Lady, you were wasting away in an old castle in some lonely part of the world with a decaying man in a dungeon that you were treating worse than an animal doing nothing other than lighting candles and lanterns and walking around shooting birds for dinner just because Hannibal told you so and apparently you were too weak to find your own solution out of the situation or even entertain the idea of finding a way out of the situation. So, shut up.) and I really want her gone.  Maybe Hannibal will learn about her pushing Will off the train and find it to be extremely rude?

 

 

 

Will Chyio kill Hannibal? Nope, Hannibal wasn't going to die till the series finale, and maybe even not then (probably not, though could go to jail again). Does Chyio "want" to kill Hannibal? I honestly don't know. I have never seen any real indication she has turned on Hannibal and why should she? Hannibal hasn't done her any wrong as far she is concerned (I think she is more angry with Will for disturbing her life than Hannibal forcing it on her), and don't think she cares much about the people he killed or any of the other horrible stuff he did. I think she is team Hannibal.

 

 

 

Oh, the spit/quit comment, I totally missed out on it. I think it is possible I tune out Mason -especially when he is in obvious slimy verbal abuse mode- as everything coming out from his mouth is so horrible and disgusting and frustrating and doesn't necessarily make any thought-provoking contributions to the story. I know the character and the part he plays in the story and I guess my brain decided that was enough....

Edited July 6, 2015 by DeadlyEuphoric

[roomtorome]

Oh, what I meant by why there were not cops swarming the area - was that Jack should have called them ASAP and gotten them there, not that someone else would have seen the poor victim hanging from the building - Jack seems to have just let Hannibal wander away, he was sorely hurt and the police, especially if the middle of the night and given how small Florence is, could have been there in a heartbeat.

 

I understand that for telling this story, they weren't going to finish Hannibal off but then don't present such a scenario where Jack ends up (to me) looking like a dick for not doing everything possible to get the guy with the help of a swarm of a police.  Tell the story a bit differently if Jack is going to cut him loose to go on his merry way - 

 

That's my beef.  Was the fight deserved, hell yeah but it just changed my opinion of Jack because I am guessing Hannibal will kill again before the end of this series and for me, that will be on Jack's head in a big way - my opinion, only…..

[kmm49]

I finally got around to watching this episode and thought it was the best so far this season. I feel like some progress has been made in the plotline.

 

Will's still the weakest written main character besides Alana who's just pointless. I totally didn't see Chiyo pushing Will off the train coming at all! I gather she doesn't want anyone interfering on her killing Hannibal but wow he could've been killed. I don't like Chiyo anyway. She's going in my pointless character category with Alana.

 

Come on, Jack, where's the gun?! Why bother beating the shit out of Hannibal when you can just shoot him?! Is the show purposely making the FBI look stupid? The sad part's if Jack knew where to find Hannibal and didn't want to call in the posse you think he would've been more smart about it. Hannibal doesn't even have to try to outlure them anymore as those hunting him have proven just too dumb to beat him. Seriously though how long does the writers expect us to suspend our disbelief?

Edited July 7, 2015 by kmm49

[DeadlyEuphoric]

Oh, what I meant by why there were not cops swarming the area - was that Jack should have called them ASAP and gotten them there, not that someone else would have seen the poor victim hanging from the building - Jack seems to have just let Hannibal wander away, he was sorely hurt and the police, especially if the middle of the night and given how small Florence is, could have been there in a heartbeat.

 

I understand that for telling this story, they weren't going to finish Hannibal off but then don't present such a scenario where Jack ends up (to me) looking like a dick for not doing everything possible to get the guy with the help of a swarm of a police.  Tell the story a bit differently if Jack is going to cut him loose to go on his merry way - 

 

That's my beef.  Was the fight deserved, hell yeah but it just changed my opinion of Jack because I am guessing Hannibal will kill again before the end of this series and for me, that will be on Jack's head in a big way - my opinion, only…..

 

Oh, yeah, TV characters often tend to have a "call the cops/someone in charge you idiot!" moments that frustrate me too, but I am actually fine with Jack not calling the cops in this instance. The way I saw it, him coming across Hannibal killing Pazzi was pure chance, and in the heat of the moment, and knowing how slippery Hannibal is his first reaction was "need to get that guy before he runs away" so no time for a phone call or waiting for the cops to arrive. Especially as Hannibal saw him and knew to make a hasty exit. So for me, he made the right call. But I get how that can be frustrating.

 

 

Come on, Jack, where's the gun?! Why bother beating the shit out of Hannibal when you can just shoot him?! Is the show purposely making the FBI look stupid? The sad part's if Jack knew where to find Hannibal and didn't want to call in the posse you think he would've been more smart about it. Hannibal doesn't even have to try to outlure them anymore as those hunting him have proven just too dumb to beat him. Seriously though how long does the writers expect us to suspend our disbelief?

 

Does Jack have his gun with him? He is retired from FBI  so he is pretty much just a tourist in Italy right now, a civilian, and not sure he is permitted to have a gun on him, or even brought one? He initially wasn't here to hunt for Hannibal after all, but find Will. And neiither Jack nor Will know where Hannibal is or what name he uses now. Will has a hunch he is in Florence, but that is about it. I think it was only in this episode that Pazzi realized "Mr Fell" is Hannibal, and he didn't tell anyone else about it, so neither Jack nor Will had any real information they could give Italian police before now.

[jeansheridan]

Plus why would Jack have any authority initially in Italy? He can call the police but it would take them 5 min to arrive. Plenty of time for Hannibal to flee.

I like Will a lot too. I liked him more last season when he was on the hunt but he is in recovery from his gutting. And from betraying Jack.

So Pazzi isn't the only person who compromised his honor/soul. Will is dealing with the very real consequences of his choice to call Hannibal. We saw him literally split in half at that dinner table. Two Wills and both suffering. Hannibal guts him and Jack wants to save him.

I think Jack should feel some obligation too. He used Will far beyond common sense. He comes in the guise as a friend. He is there to give Will a ride home from the prison/hospital but let's take a detour to a crime scene first. Alana might be the only person to never use him. And she is honest with him, always. When she is angry, he knows it.

I don't care.for Chiyo for a variety of reasons. It is too mannered of a performance. Even Anderson lightened up a bit in this last episode (I heard sarcasm! From Bedelia!). But Will intruded on her life, pompously decided to "save" her, and is vague about his intentions towards Hannibal. Shoving him off a train seems a mild reaction. Will needed to wake up. Like Jack said, killing Hannibal would make himself feel alive. Violence jolts you. Will has had a jolt. Hannibal too.

And yeah, we may get another dead eye Will again next week. I hope not. But Dancy seems to make subtle choices. He will never be Jack and all clear eyed righteous anger. I suspect we will see him in a puddle of blood again, emotionally wrecked and then we'll have some eps of recovery. Real recovery.

Edited July 7, 2015 by jeansheridan

[Crossbow]

Keep in mind that in the books, after having been stabbed by Hannibal and after the Minnesota Shrike case, Will had just quit and moved to Florida to drink and fix boats. He didn't get dragged back in until the Tooth Fairy case, and even then he put up a fight. What we're seeing now is, "What if Will hadn't had the sense to quit when he was broken?"

[saber5055]

Oh I absolutely love Will, to the point I am tempted to read Red Dragon.

 

 

Because of my fixation with teevee boyfriend, Fancy Will Dancy, I read Red (heh) Dragon during the hiatus after S1. It only took me maybe two days, tops. And I absolutely LOVED it because I saw Hugh Dancy's Will as Red Dragon's Will. So it was a win-win for me. Some of the characters swap genders, book vs. tv show, but that's just a minor inconvenience. Highly recommend RD if you like Will!

[kmm49]

I can't excuse the unrealistic writing like some of you are doing. It seems to me that having Pazzi in it for the money was an excuse not to bring in Interpol. One on one with Hannibal in any situation's bad. Greed made Pazzi stupid and I can kind of accept that but for Jack to confront Hannibal one on one was crazy. Why would he give up the perfect opportunity to put him down himself even if he couldn't get the police there in time?

[Captanne]

OMG, stupid writing?  This show takes the cake.  (Except "Dig", this is one of the most illogical, belief-straining shows I've seen in recent history of shows that remotely interest me.  Because "Dig" was SO BAD that it really can't be beat in the BAD category.)  The fact that the "dark, uber-brooding hero" gets thrown off a train elicits laughter from a fan of the show* should be the first sign.  The other one should be that the person who throws the hero from the train is a poorly drawn, two-dimensional, meaningless stick figure** introduced one, single episode before?  I can't even begin....

 

*Yes, I'm a fan.  Just because I call it on the entire half of the show that is terrible (the writing half) doesn't mean I don't appreciate the overarching story and the production values -- which are both amazing.

 

**By "stick figure", I mean you should look at www.xkcd.com to see the dimensional drawing of Chiyo that would, imo, appropriately depict her depth.  I am NOT referring to her slender figure.  She's lovely.  OTH, everyone should check out www.xkcd.com and make it a part of your life if it isn't already, on general principle.

Edited July 8, 2015 by Captanne

[Brattinella]

Strange website. Do you have to be high to enjoy it?

[Captanne]

I'm not sure about the "high" part but I'm a teetotaler and I enjoy it!  So, no?

 

I'm just using it here to show how two-dimensional I think the character of Chiyo is and why it's just bizarre to expect the audience to buy into their hero being so severely damaged by her so suddenly.  It's a non-sequitur.  (For me, only for me.)

Edited July 8, 2015 by Captanne

[Crossbow]

Strange website. Do you have to be high to enjoy it?

www.xkcd.com? No, I think it would make less sense if you were high. I just looked at it and the last several haven't been very funny but other times it's been hilarious.

Wait...

HANNIBAL IS "HAT GUY"!

[CatLady]

I have to say that I though the manner of Jack's attack on Hannibal was very understandable. Using his fists was very personal, as opposed to the sterility of a gun.  For all the characters in this story, Hannibal changed all the rules.  Hannibal is a unique criminal.  Typical feelings and reactions don't seem to apply.

 

To me, when Jack attacked Hannibal and relentlessly beat him, I saw it as a sort of catharsis for all the pent up anger, frustration, hate and pain.  It must have been immensely affirming for Jack to batter Hannibal almost to death.

 

Will, so far this season has been a total bore.  I find it hard to connect with him.  He seems to have slipped into this other world of total capitulation to Hannibal's influence.  What has been shown makes Will seem so weak. 

 

Despite the overuse of artsy diversions, I am still compelled by what happens next.  Hannibal should live on in a cable outlet. It would be a shame for the show to just fade away unresolved.

[Crossbow]

I can completely understand Jack WANTING to beat Hannibal to death with his bare hands. What I can't understand is why, as a man of reason, he would make the decision to actually do it - and then not finish the job. Now he's just made him mad.

[kmm49]

I too laughed when he went off the back of the train; reminded of an old Chaplin or Buster Keaton bit - she barely touched him and off he went - very funny.

I think she was just checking to see if it he was still human. Will's been acting like a zombie so far this season.

 

I can completely understand Jack WANTING to beat Hannibal to death with his bare hands.

Totally! But I can't see Jack letting him get away. Maybe we can explain that away too...because of grief he really wasn't into killing Hannibal.

 

What has been shown makes Will seem so weak.

Not just Will but Bedelia and Jack too. I can't forgive the weakness of Will as much as Bedelia and Jack. He's just too critical to the show to be reduced to this.

[MisterGlass]

As I see it, Jack didn't intend to go to the museum to fight Hannibal, just to get an idea of what had happened to Pazzi.  He had no evidence with which to call the police, and no official capacity at the FBI, or special permission to operate as law enforcement in the country.  Further, Pazzi is not a respected member of the police force, so invoking his name in an initial call to the police would have accomplished little.  If he found something at the museum that suggested foul play, then he could reasonably call.

 

However, the evidence that he found was Pazzi, hanging out a window and obviously deceased with Hannibal at the balcony.  Jack had no weapon because he was traveling internationally and probably lacked permission to bring a gun into the country.  It's questionable whether he even had a cellphone compatible with the European system.  At that moment, he was his only resource, and when he and Hannibal saw each other across the corpse, his Jack's reaction was fight rather than flight.  I don't think at the outset killing Hannibal was his plan, but much like Will when he made is phonecall, Jack decided to go to that extreme.  Going out the window should have killed Hannibal and punished him for doing the same to the inspector.  However, Hannibal made it to the ground.

 

Hannibal knows the area well, and I'm sure his memory palace contains escape routes.  Limping though he was, with a head start I think he could find a hiding place before Jack could get to him.  Jack would need to either abandon the crime scene and give chase, abandon the crime scene and pretend he wasn't involved (a hard sell given his familiarity to Pazzi's wife), or find a phone in the museum to call the cops.  When they arrive ten minutes later, they are going to start by detaining Jack in case he had something to do with Pazzi's death.  In an hour (two? three?) they may have verified enough of Jack's story to go find Dr. Fell.

[atir]

Why was Pazzi surrounded by money when he was skyping with Mason?

[DeadlyEuphoric]

As I see it, Jack didn't intend to go to the museum to fight Hannibal, just to get an idea of what had happened to Pazzi.  He had no evidence with which to call the police, and no official capacity at the FBI, or special permission to operate as law enforcement in the country.  Further, Pazzi is not a respected member of the police force, so invoking his name in an initial call to the police would have accomplished little.  If he found something at the museum that suggested foul play, then he could reasonably call.

 

However, the evidence that he found was Pazzi, hanging out a window and obviously deceased with Hannibal at the balcony.  Jack had no weapon because he was traveling internationally and probably lacked permission to bring a gun into the country.  It's questionable whether he even had a cellphone compatible with the European system.  At that moment, he was his only resource, and when he and Hannibal saw each other across the corpse, his Jack's reaction was fight rather than flight.  I don't think at the outset killing Hannibal was his plan, but much like Will when he made is phonecall, Jack decided to go to that extreme.  Going out the window should have killed Hannibal and punished him for doing the same to the inspector.  However, Hannibal made it to the ground.

 

Hannibal knows the area well, and I'm sure his memory palace contains escape routes.  Limping though he was, with a head start I think he could find a hiding place before Jack could get to him.  Jack would need to either abandon the crime scene and give chase, abandon the crime scene and pretend he wasn't involved (a hard sell given his familiarity to Pazzi's wife), or find a phone in the museum to call the cops.  When they arrive ten minutes later, they are going to start by detaining Jack in case he had something to do with Pazzi's death.  In an hour (two? three?) they may have verified enough of Jack's story to go find Dr. Fell.

 

 

I totally agree. Looking at that scene again (or this gif of the fall) I'd say there was little chance of Hannibal surviving that fall, so Jack did intent to kill him.

 

I liked this post about the parallels between Hannibal/Jack fight and various scenes from older episodes of Hannibal. The most interesting parallel is the "hanging man" theme going on each time Hannibal comes really close to being killed off (which then makes me think of the tarot card). First time he is the hanging man, it ,s Will trying to kill him (even if by proxy) and Jack came to his rescue; this time it was Jack trying to kill him, and he escapes thanks to pure luck (and I guess incredible reflexes, heh) by hanging on to a hanging man... Wonder what the third time will be like, if we ever get to see it...

Edited July 9, 2015 by DeadlyEuphoric

[Crossbow]

Why was Pazzi surrounded by money when he was skyping with Mason?

 

I didn't notice. What kind of money?

[atir]

I don't recall. There was a money counting machine then Pazzi seated in a spot that looked like a bank vault. Money was on the table so I guess euros or lira.

[FoundTime]

Wasn't something said in the initial call between Pazzi and Mason about some sum of money with the proof (the fingerprint)? The money looked like bundles of US hundred-dollar bills to me, which would make sense -- US money, so it would be of some use to Mason.

 

Though the "spitters-quitters" remark cracked me up and astonished me at the same time (S&P? would have loved to be a fly on the wall for that negotiation), I loved Alana's reaction (or lack of one). She just calmly took a beat and went on with her explanation as though nothing had been said. This version of Alana is definitely more interesting.

 

Which reminds me, thanks, Sars, for noting her silver metallic suit being in counterpoint to the gold circles on the plates and glassware. This show owns its visuals like no other.

 

Thanks, too, DeadlyEuphoric, for the gif of Hannibal tumbling out the window. I wonder if that was actually Mads -- it could have been a stunt double but he was a gymnast and that's a pretty basic backflip to start. I don't think he and LF used doubles in this fight scene any more than they did in the S2 scene(s).

Edited July 9, 2015 by FoundTime

[Madding crowd]

I enjoyed Mads fantasy portrayal of Hannibal as long as there were other characters who seemed realistic. Now everyone is in a dream and in some way in love with Hannibal. It really is silly. I was happy to see Jack at least make a dent in beating up Hannibal, he is usually so superior to all human beings they cannot come close.

 

I love Will and love Will Dancy. But I want fisherman, dog lover, crushing on Alanna Will. I do not like dreamy eyed, under Hannibal's spell Will. Hannibal almost murdered him, murdered Abigail and almost killed all of his friends. Would he really be so dreamy eyed when talking about him?

 

Chiyou is a useless character and I can't believe her hanging out in the dungeon story for years on end. I also liked Michael Pitt better as Mason. Pitt gave a unique take to the character that this guy is missing. I still love/hate the show. Sigh.

[John Potts]

Have to admit, it was nice seeing something that Hannibal does badly because Jack totally pwned him in that fight. Though clearly Jack has been too busy studying Dante to read his Machiavelli "Do your enemy no small hurts" or to be lower brow* "Finish Him!" You've wounded the devil, don't let him escape!

 

And for folks (myself included) who thought there was rather too much sitting around pontificating this season, they really raced through Hannibal (the book) here - I'm pretty sure the hanging scene was pretty much straight out of the book, as was tacking him via his purchases. In fact, I was actually struggling to remember who does capture Hannibal in the book and it took me a while to remember it was

nobody. He makes it back to the US under his own steam, but is captured in America using Clarice as bait. Verger then tries to feed him to his pigs

 (Spoilered in case you want to read the book and/or they use that plotline in subsequent episodes).

 

LittleIggy I was thinking "does anyone in this 'verse ever Google anybody?" when Pazzi googled Hannibal.

 

Except I'd almost prefer the contention that the Internet doesn't exist, because otherwise Hannibal would have been captured ages before (presumably even in Italy Universities run background checks on their Professors, probably more to check they're not paedophiles than International Fugitive Cannibals). Since we DO see that Hannibal is on a (presumably Interpol) watch list, it just makes his continued freedom all the more implausible.

 

ElectricBoogaloo On a related note, if I die first I hope that Mr. EB doesn't immediately remove his ring and

fling it into the first body of water he sees
MisterGlass  As far as tossing his wedding ring in the water, I thought it might be because the river had

specially meaning to them as a couple since they met in Italy, especially since he scattered her ashes there.

 

 

 

I thought that was odd, too. OK, I get "wanting you beloved to find happiness after you're gone" so perhaps you no longer wear your dead wife's ring, but tossing it into the Arno seems excessive (unless it had some special significance because they met there).

 

Not sure what to think about the adventures of Will and Chi-Yo. I thought her hilariously pushing him off the train was because she didn't feel he could kill Hannibal, but that she could rather than she was on Team Hannibal. Though whether that was the intention is anybody's guess.

 

* Mortal Kombat!

[Crossbow]

Except I'd almost prefer the contention that the Internet doesn't exist, because otherwise Hannibal would have been captured ages before (presumably even in Italy Universities run background checks on their Professors, probably more to check they're not paedophiles than International Fugitive Cannibals). Since we DO see that Hannibal is on a (presumably Interpol) watch list, it just makes his continued freedom all the more implausible.

 

I thought that was odd, too. OK, I get "wanting you beloved to find happiness after you're gone" so perhaps you no longer wear your dead wife's ring, but tossing it into the Arno seems excessive (unless it had some special significance because they met there).

 

Not sure what to think about the adventures of Will and Chi-Yo. I thought her hilariously pushing him off the train was because she didn't feel he could kill Hannibal, but that she could rather than she was on Team Hannibal. Though whether that was the intention is anybody's guess.

 

Maybe Hannibal targetted Dr. Fell because there weren't any pictures of him on the internet. I know many people, in fact most of my RL friends, who go out of their way not to have their pictures on line. Maybe in his quest for someone to impersonate, that was part of his criteria.

 

Yes, I think throwing the ring was because they met there. I still think it's silly. He already dumped her ashes there. I think it was just there to echo Ardelia throwing Clarice's ring at the end of the third book.

 

Chiyo clearly has her own plans for Hannibal that she thought Will would disrupt. My money is on her locking him up in her dungeon.