S07.E11: Fashionably Fired Up

[shoegal]

Except that Bethenny has had months to ruminate on the situation and according to her Twitter she's in a much better place with Kristen and Heather, but Bethenny's Bravo blog still reflects this idea that Kristen was starting shit about the T&C trip which Kristen was not. Bethenny has seen the episode. Why cling to this idea when she's now witnessed the video of Ramona stirring shit up?

Being in a much better place with Kristen now doesn't negate the idea that Bethenny still thinks Kristen was trying to start stuff then. I don't think Ramona bringing up the topic makes Kristen totally innocent. I think Kristen was trying to stir up out of annoyance, perhaps Bethenny does as well.

[imjagain]

Being in a much better place with Kristen now doesn't negate the idea that Bethenny still thinks Kristen was trying to start stuff then. I don't think Ramona bringing up the topic makes Kristen totally innocent. I think Kristen was trying to stir up out of annoyance, perhaps Bethenny does as well.

I think it makes Kristen curious about what was going on with the dates of the planned vacation. So, after hearing what Ramona had to say about the possibility of dates needing to be changed, because of Beth's schedule (which was not true) she simply asked the person who could give her the straight truth.

I'm not sure what that make Kristen guilty of? Was she annoyed? Yeah, probably. I don't blame her though. I do blame Ramona for lying.

Imo, the only person not innocent was Ramona.

Edited June 22, 2015 by imjagain

[AnnA]

It wasn't the second Bethenny walked into the photo shoot. 

 

I'm sorry I wasn't more clear in my post.  I wasn't referring to the photo shoot.   It was in the First Look at the launch party after Ramona went off on Kristen.  Bethenny didn't make it up to the suite.  We saw Bethenny entering the hotel, walking into the reception and everyone was standing around having drinks. She walked in said hello to Sonja and Kristen and then BAM.  Kristen starts that conversation.

[shoegal]

I think it makes Kristen curious about what was going on with the dates of the planned vacation. So, after hearing what Ramona had to say about the possibility of dates needing to be changed, because of Beth's schedule (which was not true) she simply asked the person who could give her the straight truth.

I'm not sure what that make Kristen guilty of? Was she annoyed? Yeah, probably. I don't blame her though. I do blame Ramona for lying.

Imo, the only person not innocent was Ramona.

I don't believe Ramona lied, she said Bethenny was planning to leave early, then asked "you don't think we should change it for her? ...but I'd like us to all go together". Kristen, it seems, interpreted that as Bethenny is requesting a date change. Ramona never said Bethenny was asking to change the dates. *Ramona* was asking if they should change the dates.

[WireWrap]

I'm sorry I wasn't more clear in my post.  I wasn't referring to the photo shoot.   It was in the First Look at the launch party after Ramona went off on Kristen.  Bethenny didn't make it up to the suite.  We saw Bethenny entering the hotel, walking into the reception and everyone was standing around having drinks. She walked in said hello to Sonja and Kristen and then BAM.  Kristen starts that conversation.

LOL Ok! I still disagree though. It appeared to me from that clip that Sonja started that conversation, not Kristen and Bethenny did not allow her to finish any sentence, she interrupted Kristen every few words. LOL Of course, it was just a clip and we may see/hear more but I doubt it. LOL

[AnnA]

LOL Ok! I still disagree though. It appeared to me from that clip that Sonja started that conversation, not Kristen and Bethenny did not allow her to finish any sentence, she interrupted Kristen every few words. LOL Of course, it was just a clip and we may see/hear more but I doubt it. LOL

 

You may be right.  I just don't remember what Sonja said and rather than watch it again, I'll just wait until tomorrow night.  I don't work on Mondays and should be at the supermarket anyway.   LOL

 

PS........I'm sure you've noticed that I often get my First Looks and episode scenarios mixed up.

[ryebread]

So we've seen Bethenny cry two times or three?  I keep seeing references to Beth crying every single episode. That would be 11. Or, always crying. I hate seeing any one cry and I believe her crying is authentic (she's not the great of an actress) but I'm over it. It's okay, imo, that she's done it because it's part of her story but I'm ready to move on.  Sounds like she is, too.

 

Nielsen should come up with a tally system. Heather was bossy x number of times.  Sonja was delusional x number of times.  Ramona stirred the pot x number of times.  Carole acted like a dimwit x number of times. Kristen made the O face x number of times.  I think any of their annoying antics would exceed Beth's crying events if someone were really counting.

[Sincerely Yours]

What I don't get is what's wrong if Kristen did sound annoyed? She had every reason to be and from I saw she didn't ask the question in a completely rude, obnoxious manner. What because she couldn't hide it completely from Beth's third eye, crystal chakra Kristens trying to start shit? Why can't a grown woman engage in an adult conversation with questions that people need clarified? I mean Kristen wanted to have the convo while all the women were together and took the opportunity to do so instead of having to wait and maybe miss the opportunity of all of them being around. She made a decision that to me wasn't outrageous and yet because it affected poor old Beth so Kristen is at fault for what? Acting like an adult and assuming a harmless question was just that, Harmless?  I'm guessing that Kristen is also tired of hearing second hand information only to receive some of it, a wrong version of it, and then having the wrong reaction to it. Why not nip it in the bud before they all go off for an hour with possible resentment building to yet another schedule conflict from your heiness? Maybe Kristen wanted it clarified so that she can better manage whatever emotions were threatening to build instead of going off to hair and makeup stressed out, thinking she may have to rearrange plans, pondering what Josh's calendars looks like, how or if she's be able to work around this new development, etc. etc. Now I know that I would want to save myself all that if I could just get the story and move on.  Why should Kristin think wanting to get the particulars out of the way was a bad thing or something that needed to be avoided? It's one think to set someone off by accident and innocently it's another to be accused of wanting what happened to happen. I don't like this mentality that just because you're not able to cater to someone's form of crazy from moment to moment that you're guilty of wanting to cause them distress. Maybe she should hand out that skinny girl decoder ring to all the ladies and maybe they'll have some sort of chance. Notice that the bat shit crazy one's (Ramona, Sonja) have been able to interact with her somewhat cause bat shit crazy minds think alike but the others. Hurry up, check Marshalls or TJ max for those rings STAT!

[breezy424]

So we've seen Bethenny cry two times or three?  I keep seeing references to Beth crying every single episode. That would be 11. Or, always crying. I hate seeing any one cry and I believe her crying is authentic (she's not the great of an actress) but I'm over it. It's okay, imo, that she's done it because it's part of her story but I'm ready to move on.  Sounds like she is, too.

 

Nielsen should come up with a tally system. Heather was bossy x number of times.  Sonja was delusional x number of times.  Ramona stirred the pot x number of times.  Carole acted like a dimwit x number of times. Kristen made the O face x number of times.  I think any of their annoying antics would exceed Beth's crying events if someone were really counting.

Nah.  Behavior is a matter of opinion.  Crying is crying.

 

Anyhow,  Beth cried at least four times:

With Fredrick

At that home store with Carole

In the Berkshires

At Lu's photo shoot.

 

And then there are the flashbacks that I think has happened every episode.

 

I do think the crying is real.  It's the reason that's fake.  For example, crying about not seeing her daughter for 21 days in a month.  Poor Beth.  The bottom line is that Beth has the power to change her life to make sure that she does see her daughter when it's her turn to have custody.  Just say 'no'.

 

ETA:  Didn't she also cry at therapy and maybe in Miami?  Not sure.

Edited June 22, 2015 by breezy424

[WireWrap]

I don't believe Ramona lied, she said Bethenny was planning to leave early, then asked "you don't think we should change it for her? ...but I'd like us to all go together". Kristen, it seems, interpreted that as Bethenny is requesting a date change. Ramona never said Bethenny was asking to change the dates. *Ramona* was asking if they should change the dates.

And Kristen did the next logical thing, ask Bethenny if she needed the dates changed. She, Kristen, did not ask in an angry, aggressive, upset, nasty manner, she just asked like 90% of the population would ask about a trip they were ALL going on in a few days. Once again, Ramona stirs the pot by suggesting something and others get blamed for it. JMO

[WireWrap]

You may be right.  I just don't remember what Sonja said and rather than watch it again, I'll just wait until tomorrow night.  I don't work on Mondays and should be at the supermarket anyway.   LOL

 

PS........I'm sure you've noticed that I often get my First Looks and episode scenarios mixed up.

 Sonja even admits that she started it. LOL

 

At some point during each season of all the HW shows, they start to meld together and it is easy to mix up the episodes or who said/did what, when! LOL

[comatoast]

So we've seen Bethenny cry two times or three?  I keep seeing references to Beth crying every single episode. That would be 11. Or, always crying. I hate seeing any one cry and I believe her crying is authentic (she's not the great of an actress) but I'm over it. It's okay, imo, that she's done it because it's part of her story but I'm ready to move on.  Sounds like she is, too.

I agree with your whole post, the bold part in particular. I guess this is why I just don't think it is fake or her being a mastermind manipulator trying to gain a certain level of sympathy from viewers (which is not even happening). Seems we just don't give her the credit others here do.

[ghoulina]

Nielsen should come up with a tally system. Heather was bossy x number of times.  Sonja was delusional x number of times.  Ramona stirred the pot x number of times.  Carole acted like a dimwit x number of times. Kristen made the O face x number of times.  I think any of their annoying antics would exceed Beth's crying events if someone were really counting.

 

The bolded would surely break the system. 

[shoegal]

And Kristen did the next logical thing, ask Bethenny if she needed the dates changed. She, Kristen, did not ask in an angry, aggressive, upset, nasty manner, she just asked like 90% of the population would ask about a trip they were ALL going on in a few days. Once again, Ramona stirs the pot by suggesting something and others get blamed for it. JMO

Angry, aggressive or nasty? No, and I don't believe Bethenny claimed that. Upset? I think it could be characterized as upset and annoyed, which is what it seems Bethenny is saying to Kristen. That she felt an underlying irritation/issue that Kristen has with her, which I think is pretty evident. Bethenny even says to Kristen in the preview, "did you attack me? No"

I understand Kristen wanting to clarify, I also think she was sniffing for a reason to pounce. Instead, she gets to play victim. Poor, put upon Kristen. Zzzzzzzzz

[breezy424]

And Kristen did the next logical thing, ask Bethenny if she needed the dates changed. She, Kristen, did not ask in an angry, aggressive, upset, nasty manner, she just asked like 90% of the population would ask about a trip they were ALL going on in a few days. Once again, Ramona stirs the pot by suggesting something and others get blamed for it. JMO

And then Beth said, 'The dates don't need to be changed."  Kristen says Oh or something like that.  She's out of the conversation.  It's Ro who continues the conversation by saying to Beth well didn't you say you had to leave early.  Then Beth says, "I'll just say this to you"....and she's responding to Ro.... she goes off the deep end.  Why is this Kristen's fault? 

[Crikey]

Lu was the first one to bring up  "...You know, I heard it through the grapevine,last night, that Betheney is having a problem with the dates"  when she ( Lu) was in the makeup chair, talking to Kristin after Kristin first arrived.

 

Then Ramoaner goes into her Saving Private Bethy routine about maybe changing the dates (because Ramoaner cares, she really, really cares, doncha know)

 

After Betheney arrived , after she had chatted on the phone a bit then  after she said her hellos and hugged most of the women, then after taking her Dr. Zhivago hat off and while starting to take off her coat ( so, not the first second Bethy arrived) Kristen said "...wait, before I go into makeup we were just talking about the trip, could we just talk about that really quick...."  Bethy asked what she wanted to talk about and kristin said "we had just heard the dates need to be changed"  Bethy said no, the dates don't need to be changed.  Kristin said, "oh"  then looked as puzzed as can a woman with Botox in her face.

 

Cue the meltdown.  

[KungFuBunny]

So we've seen Bethenny cry two times or three?  I keep seeing references to Beth crying every single episode. That would be 11. Or, always crying. I hate seeing any one cry and I believe her crying is authentic (she's not the great of an actress) but I'm over it. It's okay, imo, that she's done it because it's part of her story but I'm ready to move on.  Sounds like she is, too.

 

Nielsen should come up with a tally system. Heather was bossy x number of times.  Sonja was delusional x number of times.  Ramona stirred the pot x number of times.  Carole acted like a dimwit x number of times. Kristen made the O face x number of times.  I think any of their annoying antics would exceed Beth's crying events if someone were really counting.

 

Now that you mention it..Kristen makes Home Alone Face...LOL

[KungFuBunny]

Lu was the first one to bring up  "...You know, I heard it through the grapevine,last night, that Betheney is having a problem with the dates"  when she ( Lu) was in the makeup chair, talking to Kristin after Kristin first arrived.

 

Then Ramoaner goes into her Saving Private Bethy routine about maybe changing the dates (because Ramoaner cares, she really, really cares, doncha know)

 

After Betheney arrived , after she had chatted on the phone a bit then  after she said her hellos and hugged most of the women, then after taking her Dr. Zhivago hat off and while starting to take off her coat ( so, not the first second Bethy arrived) Kristen said "...wait, before I go into makeup we were just talking about the trip, could we just talk about that really quick...."  Bethy asked what she wanted to talk about and kristin said "we had just heard the dates need to be changed"  Bethy said no, the dates don't need to be changed.  Kristin said, "oh"  then looked as puzzed as can a woman with Botox in her face.

 

Cue the meltdown.  

Add 2 more HW's to the list of people gaslighting Kristen

 

Ms. Nail Polish is my passion walked right into it

 

Subconsciously, when Bethenny walked in with her ushanka, Kristen thought it looked like a BOX.

 

OH NO....not a box

 

Of course after this incident..Ramona adds fuel to the fire by telling Bethenny at the nail salon I think Kristen has a hard on for you. Luanne stirs the pot in the shoe store telling Kristen...darling at least she didn't insult you to your face. Add Sonya at Evine basically forcing the 2 women together - it was not the time or place to iron it out

Edited June 22, 2015 by KungFuBunny

[WireWrap]

Angry, aggressive or nasty? No, and I don't believe Bethenny claimed that. Upset? I think it could be characterized as upset and annoyed, which is what it seems Bethenny is saying to Kristen. That she felt an underlying irritation/issue that Kristen has with her, which I think is pretty evident. Bethenny even says to Kristen in the preview, "did you attack me? No"

I understand Kristen wanting to clarify, I also think she was sniffing for a reason to pounce. Instead, she gets to play victim. Poor, put upon Kristen. Zzzzzzzzz

Asking a logical question in a harmless, nonthreatening, nonaggressive manner does not equate to Bethenny calling her out in the manner she did in her blog. It was a logical question that needed to be answered because Bethenny is not the only HW with a minor child that would need to make different arrangements. Bethenny's umbrage towards Kristen is OTT and ridiculous IMO. AND, IMO, Kristen is not play the "victim" here, that would be Bethenny.   JMO

[Midnight Cheese]

And then Beth said, 'The dates don't need to be changed."  Kristen says Oh or something like that.  She's out of the conversation.  It's Ro who continues the conversation by saying to Beth well didn't you say you had to leave early.  Then Beth says, "I'll just say this to you"....and she's responding to Ro.... she goes off the deep end.  Why is this Kristen's fault? 

Because Bethenny is an emotionally labile broomstick being brutally victimized for her success by a monster rhyming with "Mason Poppy" and his secret accomplice Kristen?  Something like that.  But it's all very subtle according to the B herself.

 

Too bad Kristen didn't lose her grip on her glass-shaped drink vessel when Ramona started mocking her.  That's a face in desperate need of a smack.  She defines backpfeingesicht: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Backpfeifengesicht#

Edited June 22, 2015 by Midnight Cheese

[zoeysmom]

Re Bethenny:  Happiness is a choice y'all. Peace out.

Sometimes I get the impression Bethenny is working overtime to prove the old adage, "money can't buy happiness."  We know Luann has locked down, "money can't buy you class."

[comatoast]

  Kristin said, "oh"  then looked as puzzed as can a woman with Botox in her face.

So in addition to the O-face, she also has an "oh" face! Finally, she's bringing something new to the show!

[Crikey]

Add 2 more HW's to the list of people gaslighting Kristen

 

Ms. Nail Polish is my passion walked right into it

 

Subconsciously, when Bethenny walked in with her ushanka, Kristen thought it looked like a BOX.

 

OH NO....not a box

 

Of course after this incident..Ramona adds fuel to the fire by telling Bethenny at the nail salon I think Kristen has a hard on for you. Luanne stirs the pot in the shoe store telling Kristen...darling at least she didn't insult you to your face. Add Sonya at Evine basically forcing the 2 women together - it was not the time or place to iron it out

LOL

I just remembered - Kristen eventually got a kick out of the BOXing match (just not the bodily fluids)  lol

 

Now you mention it, I can see the stirring by Ramoaner and Lu.  

When Ramoaner tells any HW any of her info/truth why do the HW's not immediately consider that is coming from  Ramoaner and give it a phtttttt !!

When my sister tells me something that she heard someone say, I ask her two questions "Is that exactly what they said to you?" and "Did you hear it yourself?"  I have to mine for the truth.  

Maybe Lu thinks that 8 HW's might be too many and she is aiding in Kristin's removal.

So in addition to the O-face, she also has an "oh" face! Finally, she's bringing something new to the show!

lol  Maybe Vanna can give her another vowel.  

Edited June 22, 2015 by Crikey

[AnnA]

Nielsen should come up with a tally system........ [snip]

 

.......Kristen made the O face x number of times. 

 

Hilarious!

 

[zoeysmom]

Ramona had no problem outing the Count for cheating on LuAnn during their marriage or claiming they had an open marriage. She slammed LuAnn's parenting, outed LuAnn's daughter for her friend getting drunk at her party and passing out while a teenager. Ramona has spotlighted may negative things about LuAnn AND her children on camera numerous times over the years, so much so that, IMO, LuAnn is showing restraint in talking about Mario's infidelity on camera to Ramona. 

 

As for her reluctance to talk to the other HWs about Mario/marriage/cheating, IMO, it is because she is afraid they will do to her like she did them, reveal what she knows with perverse pleasure on camera.

 

I would agree with this except that even after seeing what Ramona said before she got there, she is claiming Kristen was trying to "start" something despite what the facts/evidence show and she defends Ramona while coming for/at Kristen which is backwards thinking IMO. Kristen asked Bethenny a simple question that was based on what Ramona told them, a question that only Bethenny herself could answer. She should be upset at Ramona for putting words in her mouth and/or for putting her in the spotlight once again when she does "not" want any attention, not Kristen. JMO

The difference being is everyone knew the Count and the Countess were on the outs he was publicly dating someone else.  Mario's screw up didn't go public to a season or two ago.  As far as LuAnn's daughter wrong, wrong, wrong of Ramona except the kid did tweet racial slurs and quite frankly she apparently poses for nude photographs- her choice she calls it art.   LuAnn claims to be classy, a street whore has more class than LuAnn when it comes to discussing infidelity.  It is a huge issue I have with LuAnn.   Her slights with Heather and Carole of the pirate, screaming-don't hurt Jaccques, my children-don't sleep with pirates, LuAnn.  LuAnn screws around in her marriage and relationship and Ramona didn't-that we know of in her marriage.  So LuAnn needs to stop outing people because she is the first to cry foul or "Girl Code". 

 

Wire, would you ever bring up a co-worker or girlfriend's husband cheating public or private?  At this point is not as if Ramona doesn't know so any mention is just having her relive the hurt and following LuAnn's logic her child's.  Ramona we want to know if you are in pain, if we talk about it more will you be in more pain?  Ramona apologized to LuAnn and LuAnn has yet to apologize to Ramona.  Didn't the Kristen ruffling delicate Bethenny's feathers discussion come up after the fashion shoot?  I think Bethenny put a little bug in Ramona's ear she didn't appreciate Kristen asking her.  I don't know it seemed pretty contrived. 

[Lucelu]

Legally requiring a written declaration of intent to divorce does not preclude a face to face conversation about it. 

 

And yes, Bethenny is hanging with Ramona and Sonja, the UES hos.  So racetrack. Look, none of these women were raised in the UES, they are from upstate, PA, CT or NJ.  Their snobbiness is all adult-acquired behavior and attitude. I don't believe for a minute she did not have aesthetic work done and I don't even care if she did. I just think she is a hypocrite about it.

 

Ramona has reveled in rubbing other HO's faces in their failed relationships. This is where Bethenny has fallen down on the job as far as I am concerned.  Ramona also loved to say some horrible things to Luann. She has no respect for people's different lifestyles--so rigid in her thinking, she feels that only her way is the right way. She insults other Ho's children (remember when she called Jill's stepdaughter deformed at her anti-bullying event?). 

 

Bethenny's hypersensitivity does not extend to others-- she can dole it out but not take it. She tells Dorinda that calling herself a widow makes her sound Old? really? Then makes fun of the terminology of "late Husband" etc to two widows who may still have some very present feelings of grief? But they are polite.  Dorinda seems like a woman who would always treat rude people graciously but then drop their messages in the trash afterwards and not return their calls or respond positively to their invitations. I think this show will be a bit hard for her since she really can't do that. Although she does avoid the bawdy locker room conversations as much as possible. She kind of reminds me of the women my father used to like to date, cultured, independant, intelligent, great taste (to bad his last one was provincial, needy and ignorant-I blame early dementia).  I can't imagine her truly bonding with Sonja who is kind of like a combination of Lily Bart, Leona Helmsley, and one of those Girls Gone Wild from Spring Break fame of the Hos.

[KungFuBunny]

LOL

I just remembered - Kristen eventually got a kick out of the BOXing match (just not the bodily fluids)  lol

 

Now you mention it, I can see the stirring by Ramoaner and Lu.  

When Ramoaner tells any HW any of her info/truth why do the HW's not immediately consider that is coming from  Ramoaner and give it a phtttttt !!

When my sister tells me something that she heard someone say, I ask her two questions "Is that exactly what they said to you?" and "Did you hear it yourself?"  I have to mine for the truth.  

Maybe Lu thinks that 8 HW's might be too many and she is aiding in Kristin's removal.

lol  Maybe Vanna can give her another vowel.  

I don't think it is just Lu who has this mentality.

 

Think back to Carole's conversation with Kristen at AOA. Her alleged girlfriend just told her I'm feeling boxed out....oh no. Instead of saying you know what, I get along with Bethenny why don't I set up a drink date and we will sort this out....oh no what does Carole do?

She says Bethenny said you're dumb

Your friend would try to neutralize the situation...the non friend is the one pushing you into the middle of the playground at lunchtime...fight, fight, fight

ROFS

 

PS Kristen did okay at the BOXing match because when the mouthguard landed on her she felt INcluded

[shoegal]

Asking a logical question in a harmless, nonthreatening, nonaggressive manner does not equate to Bethenny calling her out in the manner she did in her blog. It was a logical question that needed to be answered because Bethenny is not the only HW with a minor child that would need to make different arrangements. Bethenny's umbrage towards Kristen is OTT and ridiculous IMO. AND, IMO, Kristen is not play the "victim" here, that would be Bethenny.   JMO

Bethenny has been clear that doesn't think it a totally harmless inquiry on Kristen's part. That's the point.

[imjagain]

The difference being is everyone knew the Count and the Countess were on the outs he was publicly dating someone else. Mario's screw up didn't go public to a season or two ago. As far as LuAnn's daughter wrong, wrong, wrong of Ramona except the kid did tweet racial slurs and quite frankly she apparently poses for nude photographs- her choice she calls it art. LuAnn claims to be classy, a street whore has more class than LuAnn when it comes to discussing infidelity. It is a huge issue I have with LuAnn. Her slights with Heather and Carole of the pirate, screaming-don't hurt Jaccques, my children-don't sleep with pirates, LuAnn. LuAnn screws around in her marriage and relationship and Ramona didn't-that we know of in her marriage. So LuAnn needs to stop outing people because she is the first to cry foul or "Girl Code".

Wire, would you ever bring up a co-worker or girlfriend's husband cheating public or private? At this point is not as if Ramona doesn't know so any mention is just having her relive the hurt and following LuAnn's logic her child's. Ramona we want to know if you are in pain, if we talk about it more will you be in more pain? Ramona apologized to LuAnn and LuAnn has yet to apologize to Ramona. Didn't the Kristen ruffling delicate Bethenny's feathers discussion come up after the fashion shoot? I think Bethenny put a little bug in Ramona's ear she didn't appreciate Kristen asking her. I don't know it seemed pretty contrived.

What does posing nude have to do with any thing?

Frankly, Ramona is lucky Luann is holding back because she deserves everything Lu has said and much much more imo.

Edited June 22, 2015 by imjagain

[Midnight Cheese]

Legally requiring a written declaration of intent to divorce does not preclude a face to face conversation about it. 

 

And yes, Bethenny is hanging with Ramona and Sonja, the UES hos.  So racetrack. Look, none of these women were raised in the UES, they are from upstate, PA, CT or NJ.  Their snobbiness is all adult-acquired behavior and attitude. I don't believe for a minute she did not have aesthetic work done and I don't even care if she did. I just think she is a hypocrite about it.

 

Ramona has reveled in rubbing other HO's faces in their failed relationships. This is where Bethenny has fallen down on the job as far as I am concerned.  Ramona also loved to say some horrible things to Luann. She has no respect for people's different lifestyles--so rigid in her thinking, she feels that only her way is the right way. She insults other Ho's children (remember when she called Jill's stepdaughter deformed at her anti-bullying event?). 

 

Bethenny's hypersensitivity does not extend to others-- she can dole it out but not take it. She tells Dorinda that calling herself a widow makes her sound Old? really? Then makes fun of the terminology of "late Husband" etc to two widows who may still have some very present feelings of grief? But they are polite.  Dorinda seems like a woman who would always treat rude people graciously but then drop their messages in the trash afterwards and not return their calls or respond positively to their invitations. I think this show will be a bit hard for her since she really can't do that. Although she does avoid the bawdy locker room conversations as much as possible. She kind of reminds me of the women my father used to like to date, cultured, independant, intelligent, great taste (to bad his last one was provincial, needy and ignorant-I blame early dementia).  I can't imagine her truly bonding with Sonja who is kind of like a combination of Lily Bart, Leona Helmsley, and one of those Girls Gone Wild from Spring Break fame of the Hos.

I want to drag this comment to the courthouse and marry it!  Especially the Lily Bart/Leona/GGW comparison.  That *is* Sexy J...especially if Lily had egregiously poor character, not strained circumstances.

 

The point you and Trooper York have made consistently about adult-onset class affectations is so damned dead-on.  It's just a joke.  I have some acquaintances and one friend born into both money and a culturally 'important' family - lead articles in the NYT Arts and Design section kinds of folks.   It is damned intimidating.  It blows my mind that Ramona and Sonja even try to go there.  They are so goddamned dumb.  They are embarrassing, actually.

 

Ramona deserves everything LuAnn could even imagine.  Of course she'll take Mario back.  Would a man with good looks, assets and single status around Mario's age take her seriously?  If we're not assuming a massive mental deficit?  No.  Yeah there's love.  And dependency.  All the women, who are independent, throw your hands up at me...

Edited June 22, 2015 by Midnight Cheese

[WireWrap]

The difference being is everyone knew the Count and the Countess were on the outs he was publicly dating someone else.  Mario's screw up didn't go public to a season or two ago.  As far as LuAnn's daughter wrong, wrong, wrong of Ramona except the kid did tweet racial slurs and quite frankly she apparently poses for nude photographs- her choice she calls it art.   LuAnn claims to be classy, a street whore has more class than LuAnn when it comes to discussing infidelity.  It is a huge issue I have with LuAnn.   Her slights with Heather and Carole of the pirate, screaming-don't hurt Jaccques, my children-don't sleep with pirates, LuAnn.  LuAnn screws around in her marriage and relationship and Ramona didn't-that we know of in her marriage.  So LuAnn needs to stop outing people because she is the first to cry foul or "Girl Code". 

 

Wire, would you ever bring up a co-worker or girlfriend's husband cheating public or private?  At this point is not as if Ramona doesn't know so any mention is just having her relive the hurt and following LuAnn's logic her child's.  Ramona we want to know if you are in pain, if we talk about it more will you be in more pain?  Ramona apologized to LuAnn and LuAnn has yet to apologize to Ramona.  Didn't the Kristen ruffling delicate Bethenny's feathers discussion come up after the fashion shoot?  I think Bethenny put a little bug in Ramona's ear she didn't appreciate Kristen asking her.  I don't know it seemed pretty contrived. 

Yes, LuAnn demanded they keep her separate living arrangements quiet, which was stupid IMO and her daughter was not the nicest kid but Ramona was wrong nonetheless IMO.  Asking for everyone to ignore the pirate escapade was/is laughable as it was on film, IMO. Ramona also asked/demanded that they keep her marriage problems quiet last season and they all did, even though it was in the press as they were filming, other than saying they knew something was "going on" with Ramona. Yes, the Countess is crass, untrustworthy and mean spirited but then again so is Ramona.

 

I still don't know how Avery turned out so nice! LOL

Bethenny has been clear that doesn't think it a totally harmless inquiry on Kristen's part. That's the point.

She is/was wrong IMO. Bethenny made a mountain out of a mole hill with someone she claims she doesn't know. If she doesn't know Kristen, IMO, she can not make that claim, especially once she saw that LuAnn was the one who brought the subject up and Ramona then picked it up and ran with it and then Kristen dropped it as soon as Bethenny said no change was necessary. If Kristen wanted to make a big deal of it then she would not have dropped it but would have continued to question or challenge her and Ramona. JMO

Edited June 22, 2015 by WireWrap

[zoeysmom]

What does posing nude have to do with any thing?

Frankly, Ramona is lucky Luann is holding back because she deserves everything Lu has said and much much more imo.

These women seem to judge each other.  I have nude paintings in  my house.  Victoria chose to not only display a nude photograph of herself but put it on national TV.  She can't undo it.  There may come a time in her life she regrets maybe not.  One thing is for sure if you don't do it you never have to worry.   

 

That is your opinion. I just believe that LuAnn gets a lot of passes and she is pretty much a sleaze. It is never classy to hurt someone for sport or payback. I do believe Ramona borders on cruel and unforgivable but I don't think she has had the transgressions that LuAnn has had in her marriage and relationships..  Just because she dislikes Ramona intensely she should not sink to the level of gloating over someone's misfortune.  Same with bringing up Dorinda's phone call at Dorinda's party.  Very poor taste to intentionally and publically hurt Dorinda to make Ramona look bad,   I was a little tired of hearing about LuAnn and her 16 year marriage.  Don't cry about your marriage dissolving when it is an open plan.  So if LuAnn kid wants to pose nude, sneak out of the house at night (and break both wrists) send racist tweets then LuAnn needs to develop a little thicker skin.  To date, Ramona's daughter ahs not had the number of incidents giving rise to tabloid fodder.  So if LuAnn needs to feel better by bringing up Mario's transgression go for it.  I just don't see what she has to gain.

[Celia Rubenstein]

Legally requiring a written declaration of intent to divorce does not preclude a face to face conversation about it. 

 

Has it ever been asserted that Bethenny never discussed getting a divorce with Jason face to face?  I would imagine they talked about it at length, many many times, lol. Probably even quite loudly.  That is how it usually is when a marriage breaks up.  I just pointed out the existence of the prenup requiring a letter to suggest it was not as evil a move as had been implied - not that a face to face conversation never took place. 

 

And yes, Bethenny is hanging with Ramona and Sonja, the UES hos.  So racetrack. Look, none of these women were raised in the UES, they are from upstate, PA, CT or NJ.  Their snobbiness is all adult-acquired behavior and attitude. 

 

 

Ramona and Sonja are also veteran NYC housewives whom Bethenny knows much better than she does the other women.  I would guess that is probably why she favors their company.  

 

Although, she has become friends with Carole, too, now.  But I am not sure what part of town Carole lives in, so I don't know if their friendship supports the idea that Bethenny has forgone her racetrack ways to become and UES snob or not.   Either way, though, Carol is a princess.  Perhaps Bethenny just wants to meet some people with obsolete Polish royal titles whose redolence will mask her race track stank.  

 

Or she just likes who she likes and doesn't like who she doesn't like  ... kind of like most other people.

[film noire]

 

If you use one method for all the episodes for the season to get an idea - which is what these numbers are -just one source.

 

But you can’t, because the source is not complete and the 3+ and 7 + can often change the game.  What looks

like a “dismal” rating (live viewers alone) can turn out to perform better, esp among coveted demographics. Maybe

this last episode won’t,  but you can’t know until the 7+ is in.  (Some time later this week.) Whatever the number, Wiki

citing partial ratings won't be the measure used to evaluate the impact Bethenny had on this season.

 

Think of it this way -- it's like a CEO trying to convince the IRS that only his bonus counts as financial compensation,

not his salary (or vice versa, depending on the CEO).  Live viewers count,  esp when it comes to huge tv events

and/or time related sales -- roll outs of cars, movies etc (or your Macy’s sale example below) but that’s not the only

or even biggest fish anymore re key demographic.

 

 

so So if anyone has a chart that shows the season's episodes broken down with all the bells and whistles

 

But it’s not “bells and whistles”  -- it’s the metric used now -- it’s not the sizzle in the steak, it's the steak on the plate,

period.   Plus -- since advertisers know nobody watches ads anymore (for ex, “Mad Men” was one of the most

coveted audiences ever and 73 percent of the audience never watched a single ad) -- there are now digital

upfronts at the upfronts, because that’s where the advertisers want to go, they want to follow our eyes,

which ar eno longer (esp in coveted demographics) glued to the tube watching commercials.

 

All to say -- you can‘t assess the ratings as “dismal” until you have the number that will be used by the *people

who make these decisions* -- not me, not you, not Scooby, but the people in that room. And if it turns out that

women 18-49 or 25 -54 loved her crying, while everybody outside that demo hated it, Bethenny will get a

show called "Bethenny: Tears of Rage" -- with a roll out of her bottled tears under the new Crying Girl label

co-created with NBC -- and Bravo will be delighted,  even if the majority of the audience is left sobbing:)

Edited June 22, 2015 by film noire

[imjagain]

These women seem to judge each other. I have nude paintings in my house. Victoria chose to not only display a nude photograph of herself but put it on national TV. She can't undo it. There may come a time in her life she regrets maybe not. One thing is for sure if you don't do it you never have to worry.

That is your opinion. I just believe that LuAnn gets a lot of passes and she is pretty much a sleaze. It is never classy to hurt someone for sport or payback. I do believe Ramona borders on cruel and unforgivable but I don't think she has had the transgressions that LuAnn has had in her marriage and relationships.. Just because she dislikes Ramona intensely she should not sink to the level of gloating over someone's misfortune. Same with bringing up Dorinda's phone call at Dorinda's party. Very poor taste to intentionally and publically hurt Dorinda to make Ramona look bad, I was a little tired of hearing about LuAnn and her 16 year marriage. Don't cry about your marriage dissolving when it is an open plan. So if LuAnn kid wants to pose nude, sneak out of the house at night (and break both wrists) send racist tweets then LuAnn needs to develop a little thicker skin. To date, Ramona's daughter ahs not had the number of incidents giving rise to tabloid fodder. So if LuAnn needs to feel better by bringing up Mario's transgression go for it. I just don't see what she has to gain.

I still don't understand why Victoria posing nude as a now adult, has anything to do with Ramona being an assholes and targeting a teenage Victoria?

I don't want make this a thing. I guess I just don't see how one has anything to do with the other?

I'll just let it go.

Edited June 22, 2015 by imjagain

[breezy424]

Bethenny has been clear that doesn't think it a totally harmless inquiry on Kristen's part. That's the point.

Too bad Beth's point was baseless.  Because after Beth said that the dates didn't have to be changed, Kris's only contribution to the conversation was, "Oh."

 

Beth also claims the girls were making a big deal about the trip.  That would be Ro.

 

Beth also states in her blog:

 

Ramona came in hot on Kristen at Luann's suite. This is because Ramona knows a lot about the ins and outs of my situation, and she saw Kristen chomping at the bit to start a conversation about the trip. Ramona will take a hit for me. So maybe I will owe her one in the future. But there will be some bumpy roads for Ramona and myself, so buckle up.

 

Again, Beth is trying to reinvent what happened. Chomping at the bit?  Romona brought this up right after everyone said hello to her and said that Kris 'attacked' Beth.  IMO, Beth is using Kris to cover Ro's rear end. 

[Midnight Cheese]

Too bad Beth's point was baseless.  Because after Beth said that the dates didn't have to be changed, Kris's only contribution to the conversation was, "Oh."

 

Beth also claims the girls were making a big deal about the trip.  That would be Ro.

 

Beth also states in her blog:

 

Ramona came in hot on Kristen at Luann's suite. This is because Ramona knows a lot about the ins and outs of my situation, and she saw Kristen chomping at the bit to start a conversation about the trip. Ramona will take a hit for me. So maybe I will owe her one in the future. But there will be some bumpy roads for Ramona and myself, so buckle up.

 

Again, Beth is trying to reinvent what happened. Chomping at the bit?  Romona brought this up right after everyone said hello to her and said that Kris 'attacked' Beth.  IMO, Beth is using Kris to cover Ro's rear end. 

Yes.  Bitch and Ro can try, but there is something closer to objective reality in terms of the nonspliced, no-cuts scene we saw where Ramona smirked her way in and straight-up attacked Kristen.  It was Ramonster's goal from the moment she arrived, with a glint in one of her eye-jobbed eyes, refusing Kristen's hello kiss, and acting like Kristen and her outfit would make the royal blue loving, human version of a hemorrhoid break into hives.  The above is a lie.  It's lying and didn't happen.  It's not something elastic enough where the witch can claim 'I felt this happened for this motivation.'  NFW.  It did not happen.  It's a con and since Kristen is not a streetfighter, as goofy as she may be, it's just fucking mean to keep lying and acting like she attacked anyone.  Nope.  She didn't.  She was attacked.  That's what happened.  Bitch and Ro are not entitled to brand-new facts, and their opinions are not truly opinions.  They want to attack Kristen while claiming she's victimizing B.  It's extraordinarily manipulative and shameless, even for those two wastes.

Edited June 22, 2015 by Midnight Cheese

[shoegal]

Too bad Beth's point was baseless.  Because after Beth said that the dates didn't have to be changed, Kris's only contribution to the conversation was, "Oh."

 

Beth also claims the girls were making a big deal about the trip.  That would be Ro.

 

Beth also states in her blog:

 

Ramona came in hot on Kristen at Luann's suite. This is because Ramona knows a lot about the ins and outs of my situation, and she saw Kristen chomping at the bit to start a conversation about the trip. Ramona will take a hit for me. So maybe I will owe her one in the future. But there will be some bumpy roads for Ramona and myself, so buckle up.

 

Again, Beth is trying to reinvent what happened. Chomping at the bit?  Romona brought this up right after everyone said hello to her and said that Kris 'attacked' Beth.  IMO, Beth is using Kris to cover Ro's rear end.

I don't believe that Bethenny's point was ever that Kristen didn't drop it once Bethenny clarified that they didn't need to change the dates, her issue has always been with Kristen looking to start something. B shut her down by saying the dates didn't have to be changed.

Yes.  Bitch and Ro can try, but there is something closer to objective reality in terms of the nonspliced, no-cuts scene we saw where Ramona smirked her way in and straight-up attacked Kristen.  The above is a lie.  It's lying.  This didn't happen.  It's not 'I felt this happened.'  NFW.  It did not happen.  It's a con and since Kristen is not a streetfighter, as goofy as she may be, it's just fucking mean to keep lying and acting like she attacked anyone.  Nope.  She didn't.  She was attacked.  That's what happened.  Bitch and Ro are not entitled to brand-new facts, and their opinions are not truly opinions.  They want to attack Kristen while claiming she's victimizing B.  It's extraordinarily manipulative and shameless, even for those two wastes.

I do not believe that Bethenny is saying Kristen attacked Ramona at LuAnn's event (the hotel party) but that Ramona jumped on Kristen because she saw that Kristen was chomping at the bit to start in with Bethenny at the photo shoot.

[Midnight Cheese]

But shoegal, B wrote 'suite.'  LuAnn said the word 'suite' several times (a la, 'don't come after me in my suite' - and then the idiot smirked about how she was wearing 'royal blue' like the idiot she is) at the Warwick, in the suite.  Not the photo shoot.  She wrote that Ramona came in 'hot' at Kristen at the suite.

[shoegal]

But shoegal, B wrote 'suite.'  LuAnn said the word 'suite' several times (a la, 'don't come after me in my suite' - and then the idiot smirked about how she was wearing 'royal blue' like the idiot she is) at the Warwick, in the suite.  Not the photo shoot.  She wrote that Ramona came in 'hot' at Kristen at the suite.

Yes, Ramona came in hot to the suite, because of what happened at the photo shoot. That's what happened, is it not?

[Midnight Cheese]

I don't think Bethenny is claiming that Kristen was trying to start mess at the photo shoot and therefore the fuckery at the suite was justifiable because she doesn't reference the earlier scene in any way - why not say 'due to earlier comments by K Ramona was protective' and whatever other IMO ridiculous BS they want to fling? 

 

ETA - totally hate the 'she'll take a hit for me.'  Nah.  Ramona will attack because she knows who writes her checks, but also because she's crazy and a total asshole and a groupthink POS.  She has no courage or decency and she loves lashing out at people she sees as weaker.

Edited June 22, 2015 by Midnight Cheese

[shoegal]

I don't think Bethenny is claiming that Kristen was trying to start mess at the photo shoot and therefore the fuckery at the suite was justifiable because she doesn't reference the earlier scene in any way - why not say 'due to earlier comments by K Ramona was protective' and whatever other IMO ridiculous BS they want to fling?

Betheny said earlier in her blog that she thought Kristen was trying to start something (albeit subtly) at the photo shoot, Bethenny and Ramona had a conversation about this at the nail place and then Ramona started in on Kristen for what happened at the photo shoot, not what Kristen was doing at the time. It's clear to me what Bethenny is saying. Edited June 22, 2015 by shoegal

[breezy424]

I do not believe that Bethenny is saying Kristen attacked Ramona at LuAnn's event (the hotel party) but that Ramona jumped on Kristen because she saw that Kristen was chomping at the bit to start in with Bethenny at the photo shoot.

And how does Beth know Kris was chomping at the bit to start a conversation about the photo shoot?  First of all, she wasn't in the suite.  Second of all, Ro came in hot, as Beth has admitted.  She got all weird as soon as Kris went to say hello to her when she got freaked out about Kris's outfit.  Wait, did Kris make a face?  I think everyone was making a face after Ro's behavior.  Then Ro starts in with how Kris attacked Beth.

 

Bottom line, IMO, Beth is rewriting the scene to make it something about 'her' regarding Kris.  This didn't happen.  Another case of 'Ego much - Beth?'

[WireWrap]

I don't believe that Bethenny's point was ever that Kristen didn't drop it once Bethenny clarified that they didn't need to change the dates, her issue has always been with Kristen looking to start something. B shut her down by saying the dates didn't have to be changed.

I do not believe that Bethenny is saying Kristen attacked Ramona at LuAnn's event (the hotel party) but that Ramona jumped on Kristen because she saw that Kristen was chomping at the bit to start in with Bethenny at the photo shoot.

Bethenny has spoken to Kristen, what, 2 times and Bethenny thinks she can read her like that? BS! Kristen did not start to or look like she was trying to do anything other than ask a simple question about the trip dates because Ramona/LuAnn had informed them all there was an issue.  Bethenny is doing the same thing she did to Heather. As soon as Heather backed off, per Bethenny's request/demand, she calls her "COLD" because she loves to change her rules for the other women constantly without letting them know what the rules were to begin with because she, Bethenny is "special" don't you know! LOL.

Betheny said earlier in her blog that she thought Kristen was trying to start something (albeit subtly) at the photo shoot, Bethenny and Ramona had a conversation about this at the nail place and then Ramona started in on Kristen for what happened at the photo shoot, not what Kristen was doing at the time. It's clear to me what Bethenny is saying.

Right, like Bethenny really trusts Ramona, like Bethenny doesn't know that Ramona loves to cause trouble, like she doesn't know that Ramona would sell her down the river AGAIN, in a heartbeat if she wasn't the boss's good, dear friend BUT she will take Ramona's word on this or anything! LOL And, I have a beautiful bridge in NYC too sell, just slightly used. LOL

Edited June 22, 2015 by WireWrap

[AnnA]

And how does Beth know Kris was chomping at the bit to start a conversation about the photo shoot?  First of all, she wasn't in the suite.  Second of all, Ro came in hot, as Beth has admitted.  She got all weird as soon as Kris went to say hello to her when she got freaked out about Kris's outfit.  Wait, did Kris make a face?  I think everyone was making a face after Ro's behavior.  Then Ro starts in with how Kris attacked Beth.

 

Bottom line, IMO, Beth is rewriting the scene to make it something about 'her' regarding Kris.  This didn't happen.  Another case of 'Ego much - Beth?'

 

I don't think she was referring to that scene.   If you didn't see this week's First Looks, you'll see that scene tomorrow night at LuAnn's launch party.  If Kristen wasn't "chomping at the bit" then I don't know what to call it.  She brought it up two seconds after Bethenny walked into the party and greeted Sonja and Kristen.  Someone upthread said Sonja spoke first but I don't remember what she said.

[WireWrap]

I don't think she was referring to that scene.   If you didn't see this week's First Looks, you'll see that scene tomorrow night at LuAnn's launch party.  If Kristen wasn't "chomping at the bit" then I don't know what to call it.  She brought it up two seconds after Bethenny walked into the party and greeted Sonja and Kristen.  Someone upthread said Sonja spoke first but I don't remember what she said.

That was me! LOL Here is the link, bottom video and it starts at the 18 second mark! LOL http://stoopidhousewives.com/2015/06/20/rhony-first-look-countessluann-launch-party-dorindamedley-says-ramonersinger-is-mean-kristentaekman/

[AnnA]

That was me! LOL Here is the link, bottom video and it starts at the 18 second mark! LOL http://stoopidhousewives.com/2015/06/20/rhony-first-look-countessluann-launch-party-dorindamedley-says-ramonersinger-is-mean-kristentaekman/

 

 

I must have short term memory loss. I think it happened in the supermarket.  LOL

Edited June 22, 2015 by AnnA

[WireWrap]

I must have short term memory loss. I think it happened in the supermarket.  LOL

My excuse is the weather and or being around a 3 year old all the time! LOL I swear, I hear the Dora or Paw Patrol songs in my sleep. LOL

[shoegal]

And how does Beth know Kris was chomping at the bit to start a conversation about the photo shoot?  First of all, she wasn't in the suite.  Second of all, Ro came in hot, as Beth has admitted.  She got all weird as soon as Kris went to say hello to her when she got freaked out about Kris's outfit.  Wait, did Kris make a face?  I think everyone was making a face after Ro's behavior.  Then Ro starts in with how Kris attacked Beth.

 

Bottom line, IMO, Beth is rewriting the scene to make it something about 'her' regarding Kris.  This didn't happen.  Another case of 'Ego much - Beth?'

Bethenny is referencing Kristen chomping at the bit *at the photo shoot*.

[zoeysmom]

But you can’t, because the source is not complete and the 3+ and 7 + can often change the game.  What looks

like a “dismal” rating (live viewers alone) can turn out to perform better, esp among coveted demographics. Maybe

this last episode won’t,  but you can’t know until the 7+ is in.  (Some time later this week.) Whatever the number, Wiki

citing partial ratings won't be the measure used to evaluate the impact Bethenny had on this season.

 

Think of it this way -- it's like a CEO trying to convince the IRS that only his bonus counts as financial compensation,

not his salary (or vice versa, depending on the CEO).  Live viewers count,  esp when it comes to huge tv events

and/or time related sales -- roll outs of cars, movies etc (or your Macy’s sale example below) but that’s not the only

or even biggest fish anymore re key demographic.

 

 

But it’s not “bells and whistles”  -- it’s the metric used now -- it’s not the sizzle in the steak, it's the steak on the plate,

period.   Plus -- since advertisers know nobody watches ads anymore (for ex, “Mad Men” was one of the most

coveted audiences ever and 73 percent of the audience never watched a single ad) -- there are now digital

upfronts at the upfronts, because that’s where the advertisers want to go, they want to follow our eyes,

which ar eno longer (esp in coveted demographics) glued to the tube watching commercials.

 

All to say -- you can‘t assess the ratings as “dismal” until you have the number that will be used by the *people

who make these decisions* -- not me, not you, not Scooby, but the people in that room. And if it turns out that

women 18-49 or 25 -54 loved her crying, while everybody outside that demo hated it, Bethenny will get a

show called "Bethenny: Tears of Rage" -- with a roll out of her bottled tears under the new Crying Girl label

co-created with NBC -- and Bravo will be delighted,  even if the majority of the audience is left sobbing:)

It is for the sole purpose of comparing episode to episode.  Absent a showing to the contrary which after 24 hours of discussion someone who is passionate about this could have calculated the 11 episodes this season and shown how wrong the standard antiquated numbers are in declaring an episode dismal.  Absent that  it would seem that these numbers are a reliable snapshot of the popularity of a single episode when compared to others using the same measuring stick.  I for one would not expect the 3+ and 7+ episodes to differ all that much.  So far no one has showed that they vastly different than it really isn't worth consideration.

 

Fantasy aside and a very funny set of examples,  I do agree that if the head of Bravo and Andy Cohen like Bethenny it does not matter if her episode are the lowest rated.  They will simply come up with yet another reason -social media, WWHL polls, to keep her around if they feel like it.  I have often thought with 14 partners in business with Bethenny perhaps their ad revenues have some clout.  They don't need to buy Skinny Girl advertising time, as there is rarely a scene without Bethenny and SG placement but they may be buying time for other products at a reduced rate.