Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

[Delta1212]

I had no idea Robb was going to die.

[jellyroll2]

@shimpy The reason most people didn't spot the RW or Robb's demise coming was because even if it was telegraphed to us, the books overwhelm us, especially in the HOTU chapter, with so much information that you end up not digging to deeply into it or eventually forget about it.

Also I think you're giving Tywin more credit that he deserves. I can't say why yet but just wait and see is all I can say.

^^ Ding ding ding

 

It's so interesting seeing Shimpy's reaction to this because there is the benefit of hindsight since she knows the overall plot. It's when we really start getting into the major adaption swerves that her reaction will be truly fascinating.

Sansa doesn't marry Ramsey? She's not even in the fucking North? Dorne and the Sand Snakes are actually cool? There's a FEMALE HEIR to Dorne? Aegon Targaryen (or someone with that name) pops up on the scene?

Whoo boy. LOL

 

And no, had no clue Robb was gonna die. At all.

Edited September 16, 2015 by jellyroll2

[stillshimpy]

So I guess I should ask, did you guys seriously not understand that Jeyne had to be a setup?  Forget the Red Wedding for a second. 
 
Did you not understand, "Oh shit, either the Westerlings set him up to try and marry their daughter to a King" or "The Westerling's set up Robb to break his alliance with Frey"?  
 
Because ....and maybe it's that I still need to read more...but unless they somehow managed to get it on in a crowded room full of people....who in the world has their unmarried daughter taking care of a sixteen year old guy?  It's either painfully naive....which that's awfully naive....or it's purposeful. 
 
And the story had already discussed plans to try and dangle Margaery in front of Robert and had just discussed Cesei seducing Jaime.

ETA

And no, had no clue Robb was gonna die. At all.

Okay. That's interesting, but what did you think the Dead Wolf King was, or did it just not catch your attention?

 

There really is no way to unknow something, so clearly knowing that it is coming informs some of my perception, but it seems like that one would have really been an eye-catching detail.  Did you think it was like Jojen thinking the Stark boys would die and it meant something else? 

Edited September 16, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Protar]

You are mistaken, Protar, I just don't mention everything I notice, because there's a lot but the wolves saw it, right? 

 

Foiled again curses!

[nksarmi]

I will sheepishly admit that I didn't even remember that there was a vision of a dead king with the wolf head in the House of the Undying.  But I also missed the dragon over Winterfell as well.  I am going to go ahead and blame GRRM for being too verbose lol.  I typically don't miss much, but dang your read through is showing me I missed quite a bit.  Of course, at some point I got bored by some stories and might have read through all of one character's chapters and then went back and did another but I'm almost sure I didn't start that until book four.

 

I thought Jeyne was a set up from the parent's point of view (ie, marry her off higher than she would otherwise normally) and that her parents were opportunists.  I believe Jeyne was somewhat innocent in this.  But I still really thought Robb had a chance to smooth things over with Frey.  I didn't see his death coming - I felt as sucker punched as when Ned died lol.  I guess it took me awhile to catch on that Jon was the male protagonist of the story - Ned and Robb were pretty darn good distractions on that front.

Edited September 16, 2015 by nksarmi

[Protar]

But anyway, no I didn't suspect that she was a set up. But then I was pretty young on my first reread, I missed a lot.

Edited September 16, 2015 by Protar

[stillshimpy]

Foiled again curses!

 

No, not at all. I am, after all, the person who missed that Arya was also meant to be a Warg, so it's not like I catch even obvious things sometimes. 

 

And I've finally figured out why I would have caught the "Jeyne's a setup" likelihood.  It doesn't have to do with the show and it doesn't have to with foreknowledge of the Red Wedding.  It's the area of history I studied.  

 

Dude, once you've studied anything that the nobility got up to with their daughters, particularly Anne Boleyn, it's nigh on impossible to ever think, "Well, I'm sure that was an accident."   So it is foreknowledge, but it has more to do with history than with the show.  

 

Heh...and it will be hilarious if neither Robb or Jeyne realized it, but still....her father was sworn to the Lannisters....and yeah, it's walk and talking like a duck, dude.  

Edited September 16, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Delta1212]

I remember noticing Grey Wind not liking the Westerlings and thinking that was weird, but then I moved right along and put it out if my mind.

As for the wolf head king, that is one of the few visions I did remember on my first read through (my eyes sort of glazed over on a lot of the HotU stuff the first time through), but I didn't connect that to Robb being a deader. Obviously, it's a reference to the event where he dies. But the wolf King isn't dead, he's merely surrounded by death.

Maybe people around Robb die. Maybe it's a metaphor for the war in general. Maybe he become king, but at great cost to those close to him. Maybe it's a reference to something else entirely rather than directly to Robb. Maybe it's just a weird image that GRRM through because he thought it was cool.

It's very easy to latch onto the right answer when you know what it is and forget that there could be other interpretations of a thing, or that people might just ignore it entirely.

[Haleth]

Yes, it was a set up to have her bed him but the parents couldn't know for sure he'd marry her. Unless they had ye olde shotgun ready. I don't think Tywin was behind it. If Tywin knew Robb was being housed by a bannerman, wouldn't he have just ordered Lord Westerling to cut his throat then and there? It was only afterward Tywin decided to use the news to his advantage.

As for the wolf head prophesy, so much was symbolic I had no idea what was going to happen until the Freys and Boltons started acting squirrely.

[stillshimpy]

I remember noticing Grey Wind not liking the Westerlings and thinking that was weird, but then I moved right along and put it out if my mind.

 

Okay, fair enough.  

 

See and -- again, there's just no way for me to know because there isn't an alt-universe version of me who has the benefit of having read the books without seeing the series -- but it seems like after Ned bit it the whole "no one is safe, are they?" would seem to be one of the established rules of that universe.  

 

But as a general rule, nobleman tried to keep their unmarried daughters out of fuck's way, rather than throwing them into the path of horny teens.  

 

 

 

Yes, it was a set up to have her bed him but the parents couldn't know for sure he'd marry her.

 

Wow, for Robb Stark of Winterfell?  It seems like a good bet.  Although the whole Jon Snow thing might muddy the waters slightly, the expectation would actually be there.  

 

Plus, in the Catelyn chapter before that Holster keeps begging Tansy for her forgiveness and in the book before that, it's made clear that Lysa asked to be allowed to marry Petyr ....and was knocked up by him (although that's not clearly stated).   There was an expectation that if someone "spoiled" or sullied (hee!) your virgin daughter, honor demanded that unless they were married themselves already that person would do the honorable thing and marry her.   

 

You're right, they couldn't know for sure, but it would seem kind of a solid bet and a reasonably safe one for a minor house to undertake.  That's what Petyr was almost certainly doing when he knocked up Lysa Tully. 

 

It wasn't an unknown ploy for minor houses, but again, I think that my going into the situation reading it that way has a lot more to do with having studied English history than anything having to do with the story.  It's still not entirely certain whether or not not Anne Boleyn was married to Henry Percy or just secretly betrothed, but a lot historians debate that they were married and specifically because they likely got it on....but Percy's father insisted the 'betrothal' be nullified because Anne Boleyn wasn't from a good enough family.   It may have been a betrothal, or it might have been an elopement.  

It's kind of a well-worn ploy in real history.  

Edited September 16, 2015 by stillshimpy

[jellyroll2]

There was so much happening in the HOTU vision that the king with the wolf head didn't stand out to me. I focused more on the Rhaegar vision as well as the prophecies. Three treasons you will know, etc. Some things there were glaring and others just flew right past me. There was just so much going on there I'd completely forgotten about that. It happens a lot. I didn't realize that the two men Arya overheard in GoT was Varys and Illyrio at first either.

 

Did I think it was a set up with Jeyne for the war effort? No. I thought they were opportunists who saw Robb (at that time) was winning the war, had been declared a king, and saw an chance to advance themselves by pimping out their daughter. Purposely set him up? No (and still don't think that). Took advantage of an opportunity that fell in their lap and made sure to cover their bases? Absolutely. They could have had a maester care for him but had Jeyne do it? Of course they wanted to get her in his bed. But I think that had less to do with helping Tywin and more to do with making their daughter a queen (and themselves the parents of said queen).

 

I'm not sure how clear it is that this timeline is not linear. That will really become clear when you get to AFFC. Things are really happening all at the same time. So while it may seem like this was planned from the start the timing of it doesn't work. So again, I think Tywin and others just saw an opening and took it rather than creating that opening in the first place.

[Delta1212]

To be clear, some people did pick up on a "Hey, the Westerlings are kind of suspicious" vibe for exactly the reasons you cite.

When I read ADWD, it was the first book that I read and then immediately jumped online to discuss out of this series, since I avoided everything for the most part until I finished AFfC.

There were a couple of things that I thought were just straightforward parts of the story and then went online and discovered that many people hadn't understood what was happening at all. And there were a few things, including one of my favorite details from the book, that I completely missed on my own until someone else pointed them out.

It's not that nobody figured anything out. It's that nobody figured everything out. I'm sure that you probably would have picked up on some of the things you've picked up on anyway, but I do think that benefitting from hindsight means that there are plenty of things that seem obvious to you now that wouldn't have seemed remotely as obvious as you would think they would have.

The trouble is that it's hard to figure out which things you would have caught and which you wouldn't have had you come into it blind. Most things are missed by most people, though. A lot of people (including me on my first read through) don't even pick up on Jon's parentage being a thing.

[Hecate7]

Well, I did see it coming, because I knew fantasy tropes and history and we'd never been inside his head. I knew from the dead wolf in the beginning that the parents were toast, and that the Baratheon house was probably toast, and that I could probably rely on the wolf cubs to give me hints about the fates of the siblings. To me it stood to reason that in a fictional medieval house with an heir and three spares, plus two girls, the heir will bite the dust somehow. I knew it was all over when they chained up Greywind.

 

As for Jeyne, I should have been more suspicious of her. I WAS suspicious of Talisa. That's just not how a virgin behaves, and I kept waiting to find out she was a spy. Even now, I don't trust her, and she's dead.

Ditto Shae.

Edited September 16, 2015 by Hecate7

[chandraReborn]

What I liked about Jeyne is Robb's focus on honor. I always thought the marriage was influenced a lot by Robb's relationship with Jon. He saw how it hurt his brother to be raised as a bastard, so he married Jeyne in case he'd conceived a child with her. Marrying Talisa looked selfish, from my standpoint--he had so many people relying on his Frey alliance, and he chose his personal happiness instead. Jeyne gives him more of a moral dilemma.

[nksarmi]

What I liked about Jeyne is Robb's focus on honor. I always thought the marriage was influenced a lot by Robb's relationship with Jon. He saw how it hurt his brother to be raised as a bastard, so he married Jeyne in case he'd conceived a child with her. Marrying Talisa looked selfish, from my standpoint--he had so many people relying on his Frey alliance, and he chose his personal happiness instead. Jeyne gives him more of a moral dilemma.

 

Exactly.  Regardless of setup - and like I said, I think it was, just not by Tywin himself.  As others said, I think he masterfully used it after the fact though.

 

But I like this plot more because it connects Robb to his father (Ned) and as you just pointed out Jon.  Are Robb and Ned idiots for letting them honor get them killed?  Maybe.  But as character flaws go - that is an admirable one.  And I just can't help but love them for it.  Its part of what makes their deaths so damn painful and sad.

 

Show Robb, I just wanted to smack the hell out of him.

[Lady S.]

 

And I've finally figured out why I would have caught the "Jeyne's a setup" likelihood.  It doesn't have to do with the show and it doesn't have to with foreknowledge of the Red Wedding.  It's the area of history I studied.  

 

Dude, once you've studied anything that the nobility got up to with their daughters, particularly Anne Boleyn, it's nigh on impossible to ever think, "Well, I'm sure that was an accident."   So it is foreknowledge, but it has more to do with history than with the show.  

 

Heh...and it will be hilarious if neither Robb or Jeyne realized it, but still....her father was sworn to the Lannisters....and yeah, it's walk and talking like a duck, dude.  

Well, yeah, but the Boleyn family wasn't trying to get Henry VIII killed, just as Renly/the Tyrells' initial plan with Marg wasn't meant to get Robert killed. Having a teenage girl act as nursemaid to a handsome king is fishy, but it makes more sense to suspect the family wanted her to be Robb's queen than that Tywin masterminded the whole thing. Just seems like a big leap to get from opportunistic social climbers to a honeypot somehow directed by Tywin even though he was busy elsewhere with the war at the time. That's a leap I don't think you could make without knowledge of the Red Wedding. And while I thought the idea of Jeyne nursing Robb on her own was weird, there are plenty of other contrived and unrealistic plot points in the books, and I agree with everyone else that the entirety of Talisa's relationship with Robb was even more contrived and unrealistic.

[stillshimpy]

It's not that nobody figured anything out. It's that nobody figured everything out.

See, that's makes perfect sense to me.

Because "Oh everyone should have seen the Red Wedding coming" is absolutely NOT what I'm saying. I think even if you guessed every other part of it "that was a setup, either to get her married to a King or in the hopes that it would break the alliance with the Freys" and "Robb's a dead man, isn't he?" (because almost as soon as Jaime is let go the whole "Oh that seems like a lost war, right there"....guessing the actual specifics of the Red Wedding?

Oh hell no. I think you'd have to be psychic and in possession of an eerily accurate Ouija board, an infallible crystal ball and a pocket Miss Cleo to actually guess the specifics of that whole thing.

Figuring out some of the details still wouldn't reveal "and it will specifically lead to this" to pretty much anyone, I would think.

Figuring out that the Westerlings took advantage of Robb is sort of an easy one, particularly given some of the antics within the actual story and this actual book (the Tyrells are hilarious in their open scheming to tie their house to every powerful family possible) . Figuring out that Robb was doomed? Yeah, I would think that believing "Oh that kid so going to die" would seem not that much a stretch.

Figuring out how? No.

But the one that I haven't seen even one clue for thus far is Joffrey's death.

Edited September 16, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Triskan]

Just to add my two cents on the "did you saw Robb dying coming ? did you guess Jeyne was a setup ?" I'll just say...

 

Some suspicions were raised in my mind at some points, but I quickly discarded them aside. I was reading these books fast as hell (read all 5 in a row, during a summer, book 5 coming out more or less when I finished book 4) and I was more invested in other stories than Robb and Cat's.

 

I was, I confess, paying much more attention to Jon's time with the wildlings and was fascinated by their culture, and, at that point, Jaime and Arya's chapters were (besides Jon's obviously) the ones I was more interested in. 

... And Dany... actually, now that I recall it, I'm quite fond of her chapters at this point in the books, but after all, it's easy to like them, it's her zenith. Although on re-reads, I finally get to fully appreciate the chapters of struggling too. 

 

But, yeah, the North campain story was definitly the one I had the least interest in, so when the Red Wedding arrived, it was a complete shock... though, I remember my reaction was very quickly to laugh the hell out at GRRM's master art of trolling. Then, I kept on reading, moving on from that story easily since it was the one I was least invested in. 

 

Anyway, looking forward to a lot of things for you to read in this book shimpy ! (and dont forget to spare some time for your thoughts on Jon's story, dont forget his fans ! I know, like I was for Robb, you're not really invested in him, but still, looking forward to see you react to him and mostly what happens around him !)

[WindyNights]

Something else to note is that Greywind isn't actually suspicious of any the actual Westerlings just those related to them and some of their household.

I definitely don't think Tywin set Robb up with the Westerlings but I do think he took advantage of that when Robb decided to try to take "responsibility" and marry her.

[stillshimpy]

Some suspicions were raised in my mind at some points, but I quickly discarded them aside. I was reading these books fast as hell (read all 5 in a row, during a summer, book 5 coming out more or less when I finished book 4) and I was more invested in other stories than Robb and Cat's.

That also makes perfect sense. For one thing, half of what Catelyn gets up to, even if you're really invested in the Starks, is distractingly infuriating. So I have that benefit too.

I am not distracted by wanting to beat my head against the wall over things like "You let Jaime goooooooo? What the actual fuck, Cat?"

So that's another advantage I have.

I've only read one Jon chapter thus far, Triskan, but I promise I'm heeding the advice you guys gave me last book....which is to pay attention to the stuff that goes down North of the Wall.

[nksarmi]

Regarding hints of Geoffrey's death...oh my word how I did NOT see it coming.  I was so shocked and surprised and I might have actually cheered when it happened. 

 

Though I must say that rather I was watching or reading (I started reading after season one or two), just about every major character death has surprised me.  Ned, Robb, Geoffrey, Tywin, hell I didn't even really expect Mormont to get killed.  Heck, I hadn't even learned my lesson by the time we get around to Oberyn. 

 

I'm trying to think of characters that their death either didn't surprise me or I actually had the feeling of "dead man walking" about them.  I think Viserys might be the only one where I thought he was just begging to be offed.  Neither Drogo's or Robert's death felt particularly shocking.  But even Renly's surprised me a bit I think. I didn't really care that much because I wasn't invested much in him (like or hate) but I think it surprised me.  

[magdalene]

I wasn't surprised that Robb died, no. It was clear that Jon was the important one. The Robb character was boring to me and Martin gave the POV to his mother, a much more interesting character.  And then Martin gave POV  status to Jaime Lannister and still no POV for Robb. I saw that as the writing on the wall without being hit over the head with visions etc.

 

Still, guessing that Robb wouldn't figure in any story end game does not mean I was prepared for the brutality and the scope of the Red Wedding. I certainly did not see the Red Wedding coming.

 

I am one of those who really disliked Talisa with all her modern anachronism. I also find it tacky that they invented a show character to merrily up the gore and brutality of the Red Wedding - which did not need upping, thank you very much.

[Shanna Marie]

I don't know if that makes poor doomed Robb more or less of an idiot, but I'm inclined to say more.

I think the book makes Robb less of an idiot because at least he's acting out of honor rather than being a selfish brat. I suspect the Westerlings were social climbing, and that was the setup. Tywin just took advantage of the possible fallout with the Freys after the fact. Robb comes across a lot better to me if he had a really weak moment when he was recovering from an injury and grieving the loss of his brothers, and there happened to be this lovely young lady looking after him, and then afterward he felt he had to do the honorable thing. Better to jilt a woman he's never so much as met than one he's actually "dishonored." The way they did it on the show, he came across like a whiny brat, especially with his "but I don't wanna marry the Frey girl." He threw away a major military alliance during a war just because he felt like it. At least in the book he was gaining the Westerling faction, even if it wasn't as big or strategic as the Frey alliance. And I got the inkling that there was an implied shotgun involved, in that he was more or less alone in their castle, and he would have been strongly encouraged to do the right thing. Would they have gone as far as to kill him if he'd refused? Hard to say, but there was likely a lot of pressure.

 

The show tried to turn it into a romantic comedy, complete with meet-cute, saucy bickering, and "we can't be together" conflict. I think the book story might actually have been really interesting to see dramatized, with her nursing him back to health, him getting the news about his brothers, her comforting him, and then him wrestling with what he should do in the aftermath. Heck, it's practically hurt/comfort fanfic, which is probably why Martin had it all happen offstage. But it could have been poignant onscreen if done well. It would have required a different actress, though. I think Oona Chaplin has been quite good in other roles, but she comes across as a bit too worldly and knowing to pull off the kind of innocence I pictured for Jeyne.

[Lady S.]

Yes, I think the actual story of Robb/Jeyne would have been quite interesting to see play out. I wonder if Martin's having it offscreen made D&D feel more license to make up whatever they wanted, since the separation of show from book was a gradual thing after s1. 

[glowbug]

First of all, I hated Talisa and the whole Talisa storyline. She was such a flat character, and Robb's actions in regards to her made me hate him to the point that I told my husband before reading book three (which I read after season two but before season three of the show) that I wouldn't mind if he died. He was such a selfish prick. If he had only damned himself that would have been one thing but he was putting all of his bannermen in jeopardy too. Not that he could have seen the Red Wedding coming but he knew he was risking losing the Freys, who he needed to win the war.

 

I was relieved when I read the books and found out Talisa didn't exist. I thought Book Robb was actually somewhat sympathetic even though he still made the same wrong decision, damning himself and his men. He was so much less arrogant about slighting the Freys and I liked that he married Jeyne for honor, not love, because it wasn't cliché and it was realistic for the character, who valued honor as his father did. The show storyline was also so unrealistic for the time period in which this fantasy world was based. The nobility were fully aware that they were expected to marry for political gain, and this would be especially true of an aristocrat who had aspirations of being King. And don't get me started on D&D's decision to make Talisa pregnant and attend the Red Wedding. It was just so melodramatic, and it made an already cliché storyline even more cliché. 

 

I did not see the Red Wedding coming at all. I do remember being suspicious of Jeyne and the Westerlings, but I didn't see Robb's end coming when it did or at the hand of the Freys. For the record, I was unspoiled for The Sixth Sense and I figured out the twist during the second scene of the movie, but only because I had seen the same twist in a book I'd read a few years before The Sixth Sense came out. It was also the reason I figured out the twist in The Others during the first scene without knowing there was a twist. I'm usually pretty good at figuring out mysteries and predicting plot points but Martin has been very good at surprising me. Ned and Rhago's deaths shocked me, and I didn't see Robb, Catelyn, Joffrey or Tywin's deaths coming either. I basically spent all of book three exclaiming "What?!" with my jaw hanging open. 

Edited September 17, 2015 by glowbug

[Brn2bwild]

I figured that Robb was doomed,

especially once he concocted that brilliant scheme to retake Winterfell and made Jon his heir

.  It was only a question of when and how.

[Lady S.]

First of all, I hated Talisa and the whole Talisa storyline. She was such a flat character, and Robb's actions in regards to her made me hate him to the point that I told my husband before reading book three (which I read after season two but before season three of the show) that I wouldn't mind if he died. He was such a selfish prick. If he had only damned himself that would have been one thing but he was putting all of his bannermen in jeopardy too. Not that he could have seen the Red Wedding coming but he knew he was risking losing the Freys, who he needed to win the war.

 

That's similar to my experience of reading the books between seasons 2 and 3, except it wasn't until s3 started that I got fed up with Robb and was just waiting for the Red Wedding. It's sad now, when I do a binge series re-watch, because earlier single Robb would still be fresh in my mind, but in s3 there just wasn't much to miss except for Richard Madden's good looks. Would anyone really want multiple seasons of Robb/Talisa twu wuv and wedded bliss? Just hearing about l'il Ned Stark made me wanna barf.

Edited September 17, 2015 by Lady S.

[ambi76]

Yeah, how the Red Wedding was a surprise is kinda mind-boggling.

 

But then I was actually spoiled for it (via Wiki) and was like: No fucking way! Ran to read it, and still couldn't believe it. Not because I didn't get the doom and gloom before, but I was still in the, sure Martin, sure, this will not end well but in the last minute there will be a save, there always is, mindset (didn't have that feeling with Ned but with Robb/Cat totally strange enough)? In the end Robb's death didn't surprise me quite as much as Catelyn's on top of that.

 

Also welcome to another episode of: Who cares about the fucking Starks? From that perspective it's maybe understandable that I didn't quite immediately board the Talisa hate train, but even I found that change weird and grating (could easily ignore it though). And Chaplin is a hot lady but really didn't fit into the universe otherwise.

 

I find Robb and Jeyne's "love story" even sweeter in retrospect, especially without all the show cheese.

Edited September 17, 2015 by ambi76

[Holmbo]

I thought sixth sense was very scary!
I was twelve though :)
 

About seeing the RW coming from the second book. I'm guessing before discussing the books online became more popular most fans didn't think every vision or dream had to mean something. Like if one character dreamed about a wolf and a crow and a lion the reader wouldn't immediately think Stark, Nightswatch, Lannister.
That is just my guess as I didn't read the books back then but instead between season 1 and 2. I didn't see the RW coming even though I had seen the word mentioned online. My guess was that it was a wedding somehow involving Melisandre or the red god.

Edited September 17, 2015 by Holmbo

[Which Tyler]

Did you not understand, "Oh shit, either the Westerlings set him up to try and marry their daughter to a King" or "The Westerling's set up Robb to break his alliance with Frey"? 

On first reading, I was too engrossed in the story to be doing much in the way of analysing what I'd just read; and didn't realise that there was all much to analyse either - that came later when I put down book 3 (4 wasn't out yet for me), and the brain started processing what it had just read.

I had a vague feeling that I was missing something about Jon, completely missed that Renly and Loras, hadn't really twigged that prophecy was actually a thing rather than hallucinations/dreams etc etc.

At the time, I don't think I gave any thought whatsoever to Robb and Jeyne - after pausing I remember deciding that it was probably a political move on behalf of the Westerlings to marry a king, and a king who was winning everything at the time.

 

I think you also have to remember, the vast majority of bookwalkers would have read these, for the first time, not knowing anything at all about them. Not knowing that GRRM is famous for inverting tropes, and telegraphed twists; not knowing that it's inspired by pieces of real history, not knowing that here is a fantasy series that stands up to analysis, not having anyone to analyse it with had we wanted to. We would find the books and then the fandom and analysis; not really the other way around.

Essentially you're coming from about the same position I was in for my first re-read. I could remember the main plot beats, but not necessarily how they were arrived at, I knew roughly who was who, and I knew roughly where the story was going, and that the whole thing was worth paying attention to, but couldn't remember any of the details. Mind you, I still hadn't found the fan community at the time of my first re-read - I discovered that when adverts for the show started up, and I was trying to find some stuff on it to see if Ali would be interested. Still haven't read them through again with knowledge of most of the theories out there.

Edited September 17, 2015 by Which Tyler

[nksarmi]

I think the book makes Robb less of an idiot because at least he's acting out of honor rather than being a selfish brat. I suspect the Westerlings were social climbing, and that was the setup. Tywin just took advantage of the possible fallout with the Freys after the fact. Robb comes across a lot better to me if he had a really weak moment when he was recovering from an injury and grieving the loss of his brothers, and there happened to be this lovely young lady looking after him, and then afterward he felt he had to do the honorable thing. Better to jilt a woman he's never so much as met than one he's actually "dishonored." The way they did it on the show, he came across like a whiny brat, especially with his "but I don't wanna marry the Frey girl." He threw away a major military alliance during a war just because he felt like it. At least in the book he was gaining the Westerling faction, even if it wasn't as big or strategic as the Frey alliance. And I got the inkling that there was an implied shotgun involved, in that he was more or less alone in their castle, and he would have been strongly encouraged to do the right thing. Would they have gone as far as to kill him if he'd refused? Hard to say, but there was likely a lot of pressure.

 

The show tried to turn it into a romantic comedy, complete with meet-cute, saucy bickering, and "we can't be together" conflict. I think the book story might actually have been really interesting to see dramatized, with her nursing him back to health, him getting the news about his brothers, her comforting him, and then him wrestling with what he should do in the aftermath. Heck, it's practically hurt/comfort fanfic, which is probably why Martin had it all happen offstage. But it could have been poignant onscreen if done well. It would have required a different actress, though. I think Oona Chaplin has been quite good in other roles, but she comes across as a bit too worldly and knowing to pull off the kind of innocence I pictured for Jeyne.

 

I just love your entire post.  I don't know if D&D realized it because I'm sure they thought having Robb marry for true love would make us like him better or make the Red Wedding somehow more tragic, but I really think they took the character of Robb down in fan's eyes with this choice.  I truly love Robb in the books and I hated his death.  I honestly can't say which one felt more like a sucker punch - Ned or Robb (one I experienced first on the show and the other I experienced first in the books - but I have to think Ned would have shocked me in the books as well).

 

However, on the show when Robb dies, well, it was properly horrible.  But to me it lacked the emotional punch of "this boy king is a military genius who isn't making that many mistakes and his downfall will really come only because other men aren't as honorable as he is." 

 

I have to say that Robb being that character and really dying because of honor and other men's lack of honor somehow impacts how I ended up feeling about both Theon and Jon I think.  When Robb died, I think I was more invested in Jon and seeing if he was the same kind of man his "father" and "brother" were and if it would come back to bite him in the ass as well.  And as bad as things get for Theon, I have to admit it made me feel a little less bad for him.  I know, he goes through things no one should have to go through.  But he was raised by Ned and Robb was his best friend and they were both so damn honorable, they would have never believed him capable of the level of betrayal his dipped to.  In the beginning, I couldn't help but believe he was getting what he deserved.  Of course Ramsey is so sadistic that the feeling passes, but it was there at the start.  Ramsey is like GRRM's mini testament to "there are things worse than death" with the Others looming in the background waiting to push that point home.

Edited September 17, 2015 by nksarmi

[stillshimpy]

Well, I can understand disliking the "Robb fell in love, but almost in equal parts, was ticked off at his mother and refusing to listen to her."  So that was the worst part of Show Robb's relationship with Talisa for me:  For one thing, oh my GAWD, could they have made a bigger deal about Robb allegedly balking at marrying a Frey girl because she was likely to be unattractive?  That was almost like satire.  Catelyn constantly prattling on about how she and Ned grew to love one another and saying things like, "Is it because she's not beautiful?"  

 

So in addition to everything else, they reduced and shaped everything into a very modern construct where Robb is being tremendously superficial from the moment the betrothal is announced.  It's funnier than hell, because the actors made it so, but his first question about being betrothed has to do with what the Frey girls looked like and Fairley's best comedic moment is the look on her face when she can't quite commit to saying one or two of them are "All....(right)"  . 

 

It's funny, but it's also sort of childish from jump.  I also find it hilarious that it is some Random Frey to Be Named Later for both Robb and Arya.  As if it is a yet-to-be-determined minor part of a baseball trade.  So even before the allegedly beguiling and bewitching Talisa makes the scene they've given Robb childish and selfish priorities where, mostly, he's all about "Err....how fuckable is this To Be Named Later Frey?"  

 

So that didn't go over well, even if it was funnier than hell (and the Starks seldom got to be funny).  

 

But there are reasons within the book that kind of make the "Holy How Setup Were You, Robb?"  stuff.  One of them is Jaime's chapter talking about how Tywin sent for Cersei to bring her to court, essentially dangling her in front of all the movers and shakers of the kingdoms, and Jaime even speculates that Tywin might have been hoping that Elia might conveniently die in childbirth, making a marriage to the crown prince possible.   That's just part of the gig for highborn girls and it isn't just "That's from our history" ....it's from the show's universe too and stated within a chapter of Robb bringing home the Surprise Mrs.  

 

Now, again on FB, right before I started the 3rd book I was chatting with Mya and mentioned that there was something weird about the timeline and shouldn't Talisa be on the scene already.  Mya did let me know, without telling me that Talisa didn't exist, that the next time we see Robb, he's married.  So not only do I already know about the Red Wedding in the offing, I was spared the face-slap of "He's what?" and only had to deal with "Who the hell is THAT?"  Plus, frankly, you guys were openly saying "Can't wait for you to get to the second Catelyn chapter!"  so I had about fifty heads up that something huge was going down and soon. 

But there are other things that go into all of that: Unmarried women were not used to nurse anyone in yet another attempt to protect their purity.  They make it clear that the Westerlings are a minor house, but they'd practically have to be innkeepers and really unsuccessful ones at that, to make nursing Robb something they'd allow their unmarried daughter to do.  Particularly for a minor house, a beautiful, or even pretty daughter was time to spike a football and do the dance of joy, because she'd be a minor house's best bet to raising that house's lot in life.

So again, no shotgun would be required, because Robb's naive enough not to realize that the very fact that she was allowed anywhere near him when he was in a vulnerable state had to be purposeful.  Highborn Hymen Rules apply:  You break it, you best be prepared to buy it or claim it (kind of like Edric Storm's mother, but really only King's can get away with deflowering highborn women and having everyone know about it....so whether or not Robb chooses to marry Jeyne, even managing to her knocked up by a king means her household has to be supported by him....and again....that is one of the things Martin has present in the story). 

But I also get why people found the Starks snoring levels of boring, because they are almost impossibly goody-goody.  So of course Robb would miss that he'd been setup to "spoil" Jeyne and his father is dead, presumably if Blackfish tried to explain "Okay, so ....does it seem in the least suspicious to you that instead of sending you a wart-covered servant, the comely and nubile, unmarried daughter was taking care of you?"  It wouldn't even matter because of the "Yup, fell for that one and....did the deed, so I better put a ring on it."  and not just because he's from the too-good-to-be-believable Stark family, but specifically because his father had died dishonored.  

 

But anyway, I will see what is to be seen, but that whole thing was one of the bigger *face-palms* of the entire book series for me.  It would only work on a sixteen-year-old boy as a ploy and Robb's particularly screwed because he doesn't then have his father (which is what pulled Henry Percy's bits and parts of out of the "you broke it, you bought it" fire ) around to demand an annulment.  

 

Show Robb is pigheaded and spiting the hell out of his mother.  It's a lot harder to take because he's just such a booger about it.  Then I don't know who the directors are on the series, but at the actual Red Wedding, they had Robb and Talisa being demonstrably in love, which was beyond stupid.  

 

The show used Robb's immaturity in a completely different way and made him a petulant adolescent.  Whereas book Robb is freaking aware that his mother is going to be FURIOUS about this and skillfully maneuvers the entire scene by publicly forgiving his mother for releasing Jaime Lannister.  

 

I also picked up on the implied shotgun aspect, but since they would have practically had the girl bathed and sent to his chamber, specifically to accomplish that....that part is hardly surprising.  Nobody in their even half-right mind would send an unmarried daughter to tend to a teenage boys wounds or leave them alone long enough for any kind of "comforting" to happen.  

 

Show Robb doesn't want to marry a Frey Girl and very purposefully decides that he won't.  It makes him look very selfish.   Book Robb, whether or not someone like his Uncle was able to tell him, "Robb, they very clearly meant for exactly that to happen" , actually chooses the "can't help it, still did it, off to wed am I".  

 

But oddly enough, that is about as sorry as I've ever felt for Catelyn.  She's so nervous about having to face Robb.  Edmure has kept her locked up, even if it is a nice imprisonment and out of the loop and Catelyn has been through hell, even if some of it was of her own making.  But that was my other reaction:  I genuinely felt pity for her when her great relief that Robb has forgiven her is IMMEDIATELY snatched away when she realizes why:  because he's done something almost equally boneheaded in his own grief.

Edited September 17, 2015 by stillshimpy

[ambi76]

I found the Sixth Sense to be very scary too, Holmbo, and I was mid twenties and couldn't sleep without light for a year after that. XD

 

Renly <3 Loras is utterly missable if you don't care about those characters and not many do.

 

If not spoiled I would haved tweaked to the importance of prophecy & dreams stuff easily though, because I'm obsessed with this stuff in fantasy/fiction.

Maybe Rhaegar should have married me? :p

 

About Theon/Reek, nksarmi:

 

In the beginning, I couldn't help but believe he was getting what he deserved.  Of course Ramsey is so sadistic that the feeling passes, but it was there at the start.  Ramsey is like GRRM's mini testament to "there are things worse than death" with the Others looming in the background waiting to push that point home.

 

There is a reason this meme exists:

 

Edited September 17, 2015 by ambi76

[Dev F]

I also find it hilarious that it is some Random Frey to Be Named Later for both Robb and Arya.  As if it is a yet-to-be-determined minor part of a baseball trade.

 

It's a minor point, but I believe Arya's betrothed is named in both the show and the book. Though it's randomly a different name -- she's set to marry Walder's son Elmar in the book and his son Waldron in the show.

 

One of the (many) parts of Arya's CoK storyline that I really miss in the show is when she encounters her betrothed at Harrenhal without either of them realizing it. "I hope your princess dies."

 

Show Robb is pigheaded and spiting the hell out of his mother.  It's a lot harder to take because he's just such a booger about it.

 

Yeah, it's another one of those adaptation choices that I don't like very much but I understand why they made it. Because of how much the writers needed to cram into the last few episodes of season 2, there's not enough room to separate the consequences of Catelyn releasing Jaime from Robb deciding to marry Talisa. So either Catelyn's choice becomes a complete nonissue as we immediately move on to an unrelated "Robb marries Talisa for honor" storyline, or Robb's choice has to be altered so that it's the result of Catelyn's choice. Given those two options, I'm happy that the writers chose the latter, but I wish they'd paced the storyline differently so those weren't the only two possibilities.

Edited September 17, 2015 by Dev F

[Avaleigh]

I didn't have a clue about the Red Wedding coming from anything in the second book. There are two things that happen in the third book that gave me pause and when one of them happened I just wanted to shake Robb for being so stupid. The second small detail is very early into the RW chapter maybe one or two pages in and I just knew.

 

With the show I did like the detail of the Freys managing to find a pretty granddaughter for Edmure to marry. With a family that big it stands to reason that there would be one or two nice looking people. In Westeros in general there seem to be a lot of good looking people or at least women. 

 

I didn't get the Jeyne thing until reading it online and even then obviously it's still debated. 

 

I think there's more complexity with the Jeyne character than with Talisa especially since the Jeyne character comes with a family. 

 

There are *so* many things that I wouldn't have noticed if I hadn't read them online. Most of them you haven't hit yet though. I didn't have a clue about Rhaegar and Lyanna until the third book and then went to see what sort of theories there might be. (Haha, little did I know.)

 

One of the (many) parts of Arya's CoK storyline that I really miss in the show is when she encounters her betrothed at Harrenhal without either of them realizing it. "I hope your princess dies."

 

 

This and the quote from the first book about her being found dead with a needle in her hand are the main things that make me at least consider the possibility that Arya could die in the final book. 

[John Potts]

Like Triskan, I had to read the books quickly because they were borrowed from the library (except Books 1 & 2 - borrowed from my brother in law) which combined with my complete inability to remember names (I still have trouble keeping straight Jeyne Poole and Jeyne Westerling) meant that I had a much better recollection of Talisa than Jeyne. Of course, it didn't help that we never get a Robb POV, but I never got that it was a set up. However, I definitely thought Book!Robb was less of an idiot than Show!Robb: Talisa pretty much acknowledges that Robb has to marry a Frey and seems resigned to that but Robb marries her anyway - it's not as if Lord Frey gave a damn whether Robb played away from home so long as his daughter is the Queen of the North.

While I remember a load of weird shit happening in the House of the Undying, but when I get bombarded images from a bad LSD trip I start going, "Well, I'm sure a whole bunch of this is something symbolic, but it's not worth remembering because half of it is probably just weird for the sake of weird" (or to quote Babylon 5, "Some dreams come true - they're prophetic: some dreams don't - they're just dreams"). Unless it's a definitive prophecy like Maggy the Frog's or Mirri Maz Durr's (which I'm - and everyone else, I'm sure - Genre Savvy enough to go "A prophecy with three impossible conditions? That's CERTAIN to come true!"), I just figure it isn't worth remembering.

I was spoiled on The Red Wedding before it happened, so I don't know if I'd've seen it coming. And FWIW, I didn't spot the twist in The 6th Sense (although I did think the wife's actions were weird in watching her wedding videos but not talking to her husband) and I got Fight Club shortly before it was revealed.

ETA: Since I was spoiled, my main recollection of the Red Wedding was Arya's fake death at the end of the Chapter, because for a guy that criticised Tolkien for bringing back Gandalf in The Two Towers, GRRM sure loves to pretend he's killing characters when he doesn't follow through (

Brienne (twice!), Arya, Tyrion... not considering the ones who have supernatural intervention like Beric and probably the Mountain, the Hound and Jon Snow too

(not all of those are actually spoilers, but several of them are, so click at your own risk!)

Edited September 17, 2015 by John Potts

[ambi76]

On the being actually interested in Renly <3 Loras front: You haven't said anything about Tyrion's short chapter, shimpy, where he gets an update of all things at court after his reconvalescence. That chapter is of course relevant to my interests for the short Tyrion Loras meeting. Tyrion trying some smalltalk, Loras saying in the cheesiest way possible that the love of his life has died and then ...

 

Tyrion: Bawahahah, teenage angst much?
Loras: *almost draws his sword* Did you just tell me to get of your lawn?
Tyrion *backing away slowly* Watch out we've got a badass over here.

 

Unlike in the show Tyrion doesn't intially know about Renly and Loras (I guess Varys tells him later) which makes sense to me because that's court gossip (and Tyrion wasn't at court before becoming Hand) that would be totally irrelevant to his interest.

 

Also the "When the sun has set no candle can replace it" line is the iconic Loras line that is always trotted out first when a "why the hell did the show make Renly and Loras gay" fool appears in fandom.

 

Many People were pissed off that it wasn't on the show. But even my über-Loras-fan self is totally with Tyrion here: Way too much cheese, I think we can do without it (and Loras isn't 17 on the show).  Not that I wouldn't have liked some other more mature version of it (instead of random prostitute/squire fucking). I would have loved if they had done more with the Oberyn and Loras flirting for example and Loras rejecting Oberyn's advances saying his sun has already set. Oh well.

Edited September 17, 2015 by ambi76

[nksarmi]

Oh John Potts just reminded me of something else about Talisa - her "noble" backstory is just so freaking weird.  I mean she's a noble but not from Westerous, but our entire vision of the Free Cities seems to imply that they don't really have nobility like Westerous does.  They seem to have rich and slaves.  And while they do cover her reason for being in Westerous with "I wanted to leave and come to a place where they don't have slaves" - just how exactly does a woman of noble birth do that?  Did she run away from home?  Are her parents dead?  Was she engaged to someone else as she almost certainly would have been at her age if she was noble? 

 

I mean I realize she doesn't have a tattoo to indicate that she is a slave, but what reason does Robb have to believe her back story at all?  What reason does he have to believe she is noble?  Surely as King of the North, he must know that even if he didn't piss off the Freys, even his most loyal men wouldn't have been pleased with him marrying a foreign woman of questionable birth? 

 

It feels like the show just went for an exotic woman and romantic love affair and forgot to make any of it make a lick of sense the way GRRM does.

[Eegah]

One really important thing that makes the book version better for me is that Book Robb is sixteen years old. Even the show's version would have been more believable coming from a teenager, never mind what we actually got here. My other big issue is that the show had nowhere near enough screen time able to devote to Robb and Talisa falling for each other, so it ended up coming off like Walder Frey was exactly right the following season, and he simply liked the look of her tits. And some other things I'll save for the proper time.

[Crossbow]

Also the "When the sun has set no candle can replace it" line is the iconic Loras line that is always trotted out first when a "why the hell did the show make Renly and Loras gay" fool appears in fandom.

 

Wait, what? They were totally a couple in the books. Even *I* noticed, although I didn't twig to it until Renly died and Loras flipped out. There were probably hints before that which I missed, but there were definitely hints after that.

[ambi76]

Folks don't care about hints. They want facts. But with GRRM they are often unlikey to get them. I don't understand it either but I'm utterly non objective here and an insane amount of readers did never get Loras/Renly while yes, the hints are getting more numerous with every book.

 

ETA: Hells, the first RL Game of Thrones conversation I ever had was about this. Me reading AFFC on the subway, has co-ed all excited: OMG ASOIAF/GOT is so awesome! But tell, what's with this gay bullshit on the show? Me: ...

Edited September 17, 2015 by ambi76

[Crossbow]

My other big issue is that the show had nowhere near enough screen time able to devote to Robb and Talisa falling for each other, so it ended up coming off like Walder Frey was exactly right the following season, and he simply liked the look of her tits.

 

Someone refresh my memory - I haven't read the book for a while, but I don't recall any time spent on them falling in love. My impression in the book was just that it was a teenage crush that ended up having dire consequences.

 

In any case, Robb absolutely should have known better, even if it was Twu Wuv. He lives in a world of arranged marriages, and he was raised to be a lord.

Edited September 17, 2015 by Crossbow

[Delta1212]

I think we might have started inching back into "describing things shimpy hasn't read yet that weren't on the show in too much detail" territory again.

Also, just realized the title of the thread needs updating again.

[jellyroll2]

You know what did irk me in that chapter? How Robb, Cat and the Blackfish blamed Edmure for the plan in the west failing. So they told him to hold the castle, which he did. But as the lord paramount of the riverlands, he did take it upon himself to defend his land and his people from an army trying to march through. And he's an idiot for that because he prevented actions taking place that he was never told would take place? He was supposed to just read Robb's mind to know they wanted the army to march through? He's supposed to just know that when they say "defend the castle" they mean only the castle proper but not the people surrounding said castle? Not his smallfolk? Not their property and lives? Without them specifically saying "let the army march through but don't let them take Riverrun" Edmure was just supposed to know the whole plan? Come on now.

 

As for Renly/Loras, them being an item didn't hit me until Jamie said something to Loras once he got back to KL. That one statement from Jamie switched on a lightbulb and I said, "ohhhhh! I see it now". What line it is will be obvious to Shimpy when she reads it.

Edited September 17, 2015 by jellyroll2

[mac123x]

Well, yeah, but the Boleyn family wasn't trying to get Henry VIII killed, just as Renly/the Tyrells' initial plan with Marg wasn't meant to get Robert killed. Having a teenage girl act as nursemaid to a handsome king is fishy, but it makes more sense to suspect the family wanted her to be Robb's queen than that Tywin masterminded the whole thing. Just seems like a big leap to get from opportunistic social climbers to a honeypot somehow directed by Tywin even though he was busy elsewhere with the war at the time. That's a leap I don't think you could make without knowledge of the Red Wedding. And while I thought the idea of Jeyne nursing Robb on her own was weird, there are plenty of other contrived and unrealistic plot points in the books, and I agree with everyone else that the entirety of Talisa's relationship with Robb was even more contrived and unrealistic.

 

I agree with the bolded part.  At the time I read this part of it I figured that was the case, but my problem with it comes later:

 

I Jaime's chapter in AFFC when he's at Riverrun dealing with the aftermath of the seige, he talks to Sybil Westerling nee Spicer.  Sybil is trying to get him to fulfill Tywin's promises (her brother becomes lord of Castemere, her kids get good marriages).  That seems to imply that they were conspiring.  I guess we're supposed to believe that all she was doing was feeding her daughter a contraceptive, but I can see how this might be interpreted that she was working for him all along. 

[Delta1212]

I know which line you mean, because it was the first line that illustrated the point after I saw a reference to their relationship online. I thought it was a well-backed up fan theory. Then I got to that point and I was like "Wow, you know, it's actually pretty blatant in the text, isn't it? How did I miss this for so long?"

[WindyNights]

You know what did irk me in that chapter? How Robb, Cat and the Blackfish blamed Edmure for the plan in the west failing. So they told him to hold the castle, which he did. But as the lord paramount of the riverlands, he did take it upon himself to defend his land and his people from an army trying to march through. And he's an idiot for that because he prevented actions taking place that he was never told would take place? He was supposed to just read Robb's mind to know they wanted the army to march through? He's supposed to just know that when they say "defend the castle" they mean only the castle proper but not the people surrounding said castle? Not his smallfolk? Not their property and lives? Without them specifically saying "let the army march through but don't let them take Riverrun" Edmure was just supposed to know the whole plan? Come on now.

As for Renly/Loras, them being an item didn't hit me until Jamie said something to Loras once he got back to KL. That one statement from Jamie switched on a lightbulb and I said, "ohhhhh! I see it now". What line it is will be obvious to Shimpy when she reads it.

I used to think so too, but no. Edmure vastly exceeded his orders. He went from defending his castle to fortifying a 250 mile long battlefront by trying to hold the Red Fork and Tumblestone.

He also assumed command of the Riverland theatre's operations despite the fact that he had no authority in doing so.

If it wasn't for Edmure, Robb would've won the war.

Edited September 17, 2015 by WindyNights

[jellyroll2]

I know which line you mean, because it was the first line that illustrated the point after I saw a reference to their relationship online. I thought it was a well-backed up fan theory. Then I got to that point and I was like "Wow, you know, it's actually pretty blatant in the text, isn't it? How did I miss this for so long?"

Exactly! I was like, well that just slapped me right in the face with something I should have realized a while ago. Then on re-reads it's so apparent you're like "oh duh".

I used to think so too, but no. Edmure vastly exceeded his orders. He went from defending his castle to fortifying a 250 mile long battlefront by trying to hold the Red Fork and Tumblestone.

He also assumed command of the Riverland theatre's operations despite the fact that he had no authority in doing so.

If it wasn't for Edmure, Robb would've won the war.

I haven't read SoS in a while so I can't recall how far outside the bounds Edmure went. I do know he was fighting near the river and it was close enough that Cat could see the battle. Being unable to execute his western plan definitely was a huge blow but I wouldn't chalk Robb losing the war only on Edmure. Perhaps just the first huge fall off the cliff.

[Delta1212]

Robb could have won the war except for a lot of different things that happen.

[Shanna Marie]

One really important thing that makes the book version better for me is that Book Robb is sixteen years old. Even the show's version would have been more believable coming from a teenager, never mind what we actually got here.

Yeah, I go back and forth on whether the aging up was a good idea or bad idea. It was hard for me to get into the books in the first place before the series because I had a hard time wrapping my mind around these characters being fourteen. Being able to mentally age them up as I read, based on the show depictions, helped. But in season one it seemed more like they were aging the guys up to be about 18, which worked well for me. They were still kids, essentially, but they weren't children. In later seasons, it seems like they forgot the ages of the characters and were making them closer to the ages of the actors, so mid-late 20s. But then there were moments that were pure teenager mixed in.

 

One reason the show version doesn't work for me is that a boy raised like Robb Stark was wouldn't have expected to marry for love. Sure, there were songs and stories about such a thing, but the practical reality that he would have been raised to expect would have been an arranged marriage for political purposes. The ideal he could hope for would be something like his parents, with a political marriage where they fell in love. The deal with the Freys was merely solidifying which political marriage he'd make. He might not have been overly thrilled about uniting his family to the Freys because they were Freys, but he wouldn't have been whining about not getting to pick his own wife, and he certainly wouldn't have decided to just go and do whatever he wanted because it wasn't fair that he didn't get to. In the book, it was still a political marriage because it was about avoiding making an enemy by acting dishonorably. I didn't get the impression that he was in love with Jeyne, but he was trying to make the best of it and hoped they'd end up in love with each other over time, but for the moment he did care for her and was determined to be a good husband.

 

I can see a 16 year old not thinking that the whole thing was a setup, especially since he was injured when he met her. A hurt kid can hardly be expected to be thinking that clearly, and by the time he would have come to his senses, it was a little late.