Speculation WITHOUT Spoilers: Lalalalala! I can't hear you!

[KingOfHearts]

I realize I worded my initial post poorly. The point I was trying to make is if Emma, Henry, and Killian all agree and want him to become an adoptive parent to Henry, I don't see how Regina's one vote for "no" would outweigh three "yes" votes. She of course is allowed to have an opinion on the matter, but considering Storybrooke doesn't even have a legal system, how does Regina as the adoptive mother get to override the vote of the biological mother? Is Emma just supposed to roll over and say, "Sorry, babe. But since Regina—the woman who once accidentally killed Henry—doesn't agree, you can't be Henry's adoptive father." What?

"She is, after all my BFF. Plus, I have to obey the Regina Exception Clause, otherwise I might get killed off."

[Camera One]

If there was an episode about Eva in the Underworld... I think I know how it would go...

 

"A very long time ago".  Teenage Eva's entire castle is suffering from a plague.  Eva is asked to go get an herb from local medicine woman which will cure everyone, but she is intercepted on the way by Hades.

 

Hades: Hello precious.  I know for a fact your betrothed Leopold is being wooed by another woman.  I can tell you where you can go to stop it.  But you must let everyone in the castle die.

Eva: Ok.

Hades: Go to Leopold's castle and hide behind the tree when the shadow of the crimson betrayal tree falls on the honest oak.

 

Meanwhile, in Underbrooke, Eva comes to Snow.  "I heard you were here."  "Mother, maybe you can help us.  We're looking for the recipe to Granny's lasagna.  We think it might help us to defeat Hades."  Hades asks Eva to rip up the recipe, but not before Miller Cora shows up to expose Eva in front of Snow and the family.  Eva asks for Cora's forgiveness and Cora grants the apology and now both their unfinished business is complete.  Eva, Cora and everyone who died in the castle together ascend into the Light to live together in the Castle in the Sky.

 

SCRIPT TEASE

 

EMMA: I thought my family were the good guys.

REGINA: No.  OUR family are the good guys.

Edited March 31, 2016 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

I'm worried they're going to use the "second child" contract in order to dodge the Dark One secret for Rumpbelle. Belle should be ticked Rumple sold off her baby, yes, but since he's working to save it, I feel like the writers are going to frame that as quasi-heroism. "Well Rumple, you bit the darkness for the fiftieth time, betrayed everyone, and sold off my child - but at least you saved it! See, there IS good in your heart!"

Edited April 1, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[YaddaYadda]

Considering that Cruella's and Liam's Underworld stories were written in the book that was found, and Henry not consciously writing the stories we saw from 5x16, is it possible that someone else is at it?

 

We don't even know when Liam's story appeared in the book, but it could have been after everything happened. I can't imagine that someone who has tried so hard to keep a secret buried for so long wouldn't tear those pages up. 

 

I wonder if Merlin won't reappear at some point.

[KingOfHearts]

Next week looks like, "You didn't like 4x06? You didn't like 5x06? Let's smash them together! We'll have a pre-Skin Deep flashback showing an important person in Belle's life, then in the present we'll have someone shooting arrows at Rumpbelle! That'll keep the momentum going."

Edited April 5, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

With Regina having been so oddly reasonable lately, and with that one bit of crazy eyes when she summoned the fireball, I'm worried that we're being set up for a fall, and the Return of the Evil Queen: Back With a Vengeance! is inevitable.

 

Though I suppose she's only oddly reasonable to some of us and the characters (and writers) think she's been perfectly heroic all along.

[KingOfHearts]

I'm honestly worried we're never going to get the answer for why Hook was tortured by Hades. It just got dropped and none of the characters seem to care.

[Camera One]

A&E would say they already explained, in "Devils' Due".  

 

HADES: Now, I want you to think about why you're here.
You tried to escape.
You freed another prisoner.
You refuse to do what I ask, and do you know the most important reason?

 

HOOK: I couldn't begin to guess.

 

HADES: Hope.
You and your colleagues brought contraband, hope, into my world, and that is strictly forbidden.
And despite some creative beatings, I still see hope in your eyes.

 

---

 

So did Hook already have Hope before everyone got there?  Or was it "refusing to do what I ask" thing?

 

When did Liam find out he was there?

 

Why was Hades trying to get Regina to leave in Episode 1?  But not anyone else?  But now put her name on the tombstone to stay forever?

Edited April 8, 2016 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

But why was Hook in prison? It looked like he had already been tortured before letting Megara escape.

[Camera One]

I made a typo and was wondering if Hook already had a bit of hope before Emma and Co. got there, but that doesn't seem too likely.  Maybe Hades met Hook and Hook gave him lip right away or something, unless the "refuse to do what I ask" will be elaborated on.  Which I kinda doubt.

[kitticup]

Count me as someone who doesn't understand why Hades tortured hook. If anything Hook stopped Emma from killing Zelena and he could probably give Hades advice on wooing Zelena.

[PixiePaws1]

Count me as someone who doesn't understand why Hades tortured hook. If anything Hook stopped Emma from killing Zelena and he could probably give Hades advice on wooing Zelena.

for myself i don't need much more explanation than what we got. the Greek /Roman gods were known for being capriciously cruel.....likely a result of bored immortality. ....put an offering in one of their temples they don't like and they'd do something horrible to you. they didn't need valid reasons ...often they just had an urge to hurt someone and unless one of the more powerful ones disagreed and intervened, then that's what they did. Hades' behavior, while difficult for some people to watch, seemed pretty true to the myths to me.

[Rumsy4]

The problem for me is, this Hades is so divorced from the myths, I have a hard time accepting him as Hades. From my knowledge of Greek mythology, Hades was the eldest son of Cronus, and Zeus was the youngest. Zeus didn't curse Hades' heart to stop it. And Zelena is nothing like Persephone. Besides, Hades wasn't capricious like the Olympian gods, but was known to be just and inflexible.

 

Ouat Hades is a bit of a joke really. It's still not clear why he cares about people moving on from the Underworld, and what it has to do with wooing Zelena. Will Underbrooke disappear if more and more souls move on? Is that why he is afraid? Is Underbrooke an act of defiance against Zeus somehow? I would definitely like more answers, which I'm not sure will be forthcoming.

[Camera One]

I wonder if they will make Zelena more like Persophone by the end of this arc .  Hades tricks her into spending half the year in the Underworld (or maybe Snow diabolically gives the pomegranate to Zelena to eat, shame shame shame shame shame shame), so she has to entrust the baby to Regina and Robin for the other half.  Of course, she, like Hades, would be able to visit anytime due to their powers, but whatever...

Edited April 8, 2016 by Camera One

[Jul 68]

Considering that Cruella's and Liam's Underworld stories were written in the book that was found, and Henry not consciously writing the stories we saw from 5x16, is it possible that someone else is at it?

We don't even know when Liam's story appeared in the book, but it could have been after everything happened. I can't imagine that someone who has tried so hard to keep a secret buried for so long wouldn't tear those pages up.

I wonder if Merlin won't reappear at some point.

I had a very similar thought, only I'm thinking either Mickey is doing it as a way to teach Henry to only write what has already happened or Hades is doing it to screw with them.

If Henry is actually writting it, he isn't helping to write their escape or Hades demise as he is supposed to be doing. Shouldn't we have seen him at least ATTEMPTING to do this? I would like to see him trying and drawing bad stick figures (as I would) and then tearing out the page and tossing it in the magical garbage.

Edited April 8, 2016 by Jul 68

[Jul 68]

I wonder if they will make Zelena more like Persophone by the end of this arc . Hades tricks her into spending half the year in the Underworld (or maybe Snow diabolically gives the pomegranate to Zelena to eat, shame shame shame shame shame shame), so she has to entrust the baby to Regina and Robin for the other half. Of course, she, like Hades, would be able to visit anytime due to their powers, but whatever...

That wouldn't work on this show, though because 6 months is about 3 seasons and they love Rebecca Mader too much to have her gone that long. She could only break the magical rules so many times before it turns into the whole portals popping up constantly crap we have now.

You know what? Never mind. I forgot what show we are talking about for a minute there.

[Rumsy4]

This is based on the promo from the next episode. Zelena apparently cursed Dorothy with an "Unbreakable" Curse in the two days she spent back in Oz. I think Ruby will find Dorothy trapped in the UW and wake her with True Love's kiss. "Ruby Slippers" is the LGBT ship. 

[KingOfHearts]

What was with Zelena's hat in the promo?

[YaddaYadda]

This is based on the promo from the next episode. Zelena apparently cursed Dorothy with an "Unbreakable" Curse in the two days she spent back in Oz. I think Ruby will find Dorothy trapped in the UW and wake her with True Love's kiss. "Ruby Slippers" is the LGBT ship. 

 

It's great, a TLK with zero build up. I'm not even going to side eye anyone who will complain about this, because I'm ready to start complaining.

[InsertWordHere]

If people complain, I get it, BUT

 

Snow and Charming's pilot TLK had zero build up. In fairness, they later showed the flashbacks leading up to that moment.

 

Rumbelle's almost TLK had one episode of build up. Later flashbacks have barely shown any more build up for the Skin Deep kiss.

 

Phillip and Aurora's TLK had zero buildup. We still haven't really seen any build up for that couple.

 

I think Henry's TLKs are the only ones with a multi-episode build up. 

[YaddaYadda]

At the same time, these couples, were all already canon in the Disney verse, so it doesn't come as a shock to anyone. Plus Snowing and RB are still on the show, so the writers are still building or destroying them depending on how we all look at it.

 

Meanwhile, Red might have had something going on with Whale before she left. She met up with Mulan, but she might have a TLK with Dorothy. This is where my problem is. And it has nothing to do with the couple, and everything to do with the TLK. 

[Rumsy4]

If it's true that Ruby and Dorothy end up a couple, poor Mulan gets shortchanged again in the romance department.  :-/

[Camera One]

Still not 8pm in my time zone yet.  But it's always nice to see the Continuity thread light up, LOL.  Can't wait for this episode now.  

[InsertWordHere]

Mulan could also end up in the Underworld. I mean, everyone's doing it! To be fair, Mulan is one of four characters that should be able to get to the Underworld, because I assume she went there to rescue Phillip's soul sometime during Season 2. Which begs the question of why Emma didn't ask Phillip or Aurora to open the Underworld portal for her instead of resorting to (totally justified) blackmail. Maybe she didn't think they would want to help Hook? Or maybe the writers have totally forgotten about Phillip and Aurora, just like they totally forgot that Aurora should be walking around during that sleeping curse last season.  

 

This episode will have to include a lot of portal hopping. We have to find out how Mulan and Ruby got to Oz, how Dorothy got to the Underworld, and how Zelena got to Storybrooke from Oz. 

[Serena]

Count me as someone who doesn't understand why Hades tortured hook. If anything Hook stopped Emma from killing Zelena and he could probably give Hades advice on wooing Zelena.

"She just loves Captain Swan. For a sexy, romantic date, just share your favourite smutty CS fanfiction and she'll be yours. The song at your wedding? Why, the Words by Christina Perri, of course."

This is based on the promo from the next episode. Zelena apparently cursed Dorothy with an "Unbreakable" Curse in the two days she spent back in Oz. I think Ruby will find Dorothy trapped in the UW and wake her with True Love's kiss. "Ruby Slippers" is the LGBT ship.

Okay, fine. I wasn't really invested in Mulan Rouge, anyway (apart from the awesome ship name). We can go back to my #1 choice from Mulan endgame, gender-swapped Shang. But they had BETTER give Mulan an HEA before the end of the show. I'll riot otherwise. Edited April 11, 2016 by Serena

[Mari]

Okay, fine. I wasn't really invested in Mulan Rouge, anyway (apart from the awesome ship name). We can go back to my #1 choice from Mulan endgame, gender-swapped Shang. But they had BETTER give Mulan an HEA before the end of the show. I'll riot otherwise.

Ruby Slippers makes a pretty good couple name.

I'm not really one for couple names, but we really do have some of the most interesting ones in this fandom.

[Rumsy4]

Okay, fine. I wasn't really invested in Mulan Rouge, anyway (apart from the awesome ship name). We can go back to my #1 choice from Mulan endgame, gender-swapped Shang. But they had BETTER give Mulan an HEA before the end of the show. I'll riot otherwise.

 

Same.

[Rumsy4]

Souls moved to a better place: Henry I (Regina), Hercules (Snow), Megara (Snow/Hook/Hercules), Liam and six sailors (Hook/Liam), someone offscreen during Our Decay (I choose to believe it was the guy Snow and Charming talked to at the haunting booth). 11

 

Souls lost for all eternity: Milah (Rumple) and Gaston (Belle). 2

 

Souls sent to fiery hell thingy: Blacktooth (Cora) and Silver (Hades). 2

 

Undetermined: Horse of mysterious origin (Regina).

 

This is a nice comprehensive list of the fate of souls so far. Among the Nevengers, Regina, Snow, and Hook have played direct roles in helping souls move to a better place so far, while Belle and Rumple have pushed two to a worse fate. How about the rest of them?

 

Henry: I think we can safely say that Henry will help the Apprentice move on. I'm not sure if the Apprentice is set to appear in another episode, or we are to assume it has already happened. But Apprentice=good place.

             Cruella's fate is likely to be tied to Henry as well. I think she's for the flaming river, unfortunately. She has mentioned the "bad" place too many times for it to be anything else.

David: James, obviously. No matter how much of a douche James is, I think David will help him find some peace about his origins and move on to a better place.

Robin: I'm not sure he will be directly responsible for anyone moving on. He's barely there, poor guy.

Emma: She's played a supporting role in helping souls move on, but I do think she will help someone directly before the end of the arc. Not to mention bring Hook back to the land of the living. 

She'll most likely find her old mentor in the UW and help her move on to a better place.

Zelena: I'm counting her as a fledgling Nevenger. I think she will play a part in determining Cora's fate. I'm not sure about Cora's ultimate fate. She may end up a Lost Soul. 

Rumple: I think he will be responsible for Pan going to a worse place. Cruella and Pan seem to be considered the unredeemable villains of the Show. 

We know he and Pan are upto some shenanigans in a later episode.

Belle: Just keep her away from everyone, and at least she won't kill anyone else. She may play a part in freeing the lost souls from the River out of guilt. 

Red: Will help rescue Dorothy, who is kinda mostly dead. 

Other: Before they leave, I think the Nevengers will free all the Lost Souls from the Underworld. I don't believe the writers will leave Milah and Gaston's fate as undetermined at the end of the season. The UW will also be fundamentally changed at the end of their adventure. 

Edited April 11, 2016 by Rumsy4

[daxx]

I am pretty sure it will be clear by the end of the season that going to the underworld to retrieve someone will no longer be an option. Dead will be dead again.

[Shanna Marie]

I am pretty sure it will be clear by the end of the season that going to the underworld to retrieve someone will no longer be an option. Dead will be dead again.

If they defeat or destroy Hades, that may destroy the Underworld, and so people go straight to whichever Afterlife they're set for, without any worry about unfinished business. They've established that once someone has moved on in either direction, that's it, and there's no coming back.

[KingOfHearts]

I'm going to be disappointed if Hook is the only person that gets resurrected. 

[InsertWordHere]

I am interested in the next episode, but my problem with Dorothy is so far she just seems to be a combination of other people in Red's life. She's the savior of Oz like Emma is the SB savior. She's a thorn in Zelena's side but beloved by the people of Oz like Snow was a thorn in Regina's side who was beloved by the people of the EF. She seems to be a warrior like Mulan and Snow. What's next? Will they have her make inappropriate comments like Whale? Read a lot of books like Belle? So far her only unique characteristic seems to be that she's a dog lover (which could also be said for David if they ever delved into it. Archie too), and I really hope they're not going to make that part of the Ruby Slippers romance, considering Red's a wolf. 

 

I am also a little tired of waiting for Mulan's romance. I have been waiting three seasons now for her to find love, and I am much more invested in her than I am Dorothy, or even Red for that matter. She just always seems to be pushed aside and left behind. Is there some rule that Mulan can't go to the modern world or something? Because I actually think, of the characters who were never part of the original curse, that Mulan would be the one to flourish the most in modern society. 

Edited April 13, 2016 by InsertWordHere

[KingOfHearts]

Mulan has gotten too generic. She's less of a Chinese warrior and more of a token LGBT character. The show is so disinterested in her backstory that she has to leech on others' plots in order to stay relevant.

[InsertWordHere]

Mulan has gotten too generic. She's less of a Chinese warrior and more of a token LGBT character. The show is so disinterested in her backstory that she has to leech on others' plots in order to stay relevant.

But why? Why is it that the only established LGBT character, who also happens to be the only non-white Disney princess on this show besides the one-off Rapunzel and the yet to be introduced despite other characters from her story appearing Jasmine, gets consistently pushed aside by these writers? It's causing me to draw a conclusion that has nothing to do with Mulan being "generic."

[KingOfHearts]

Well what I mean is that she doesn't have much character besides a tough exterior brought on from feeling rejected. The writers sort of just slapped her together with Red and Dorothy and jumped through hoops to do so. She's just another "tough heroine" who happens to be LGBT. There's no regard for her individuality.

[Rumsy4]

I am also a little tired of waiting for Mulan's romance. I have been waiting three seasons now for her to find love, and I am much more invested in her than I am Dorothy, or even Red for that matter. She just always seems to be pushed aside and left behind.

 

I too am really confused and frustrated by a lack of romance for Mulan because the writers have explicitly shown her being heartbroken over unrequited feelings. If I had any faith the writers will work a second LGBT pairing with Mulan at a later time, I won't mind so much (even if I think it odd to bypass Mulan this time). But it is very unlikely. What I would like is if Ruby Slippers is a go, Merida will pair up with Mulan in the end. The only time I found Merida tolerable was when she was interacting with Mulan. They seemed to have good chemistry as well. 

 

Why is it that the only established LGBT character, who also happens to be the only non-white Disney princess on this show ... gets consistently pushed aside by these writers?

 

You know what the sad thing about this is? Mulan is not even canon-established as LGBT. It was never specified if she was in love with Aurora. Just implied. Even in the Bear King episode she uses the generic "they" to describe the person she loved. The writers have been giving themselves plausible deniability all this time. 

Edited April 13, 2016 by Rumsy4

[KingOfHearts]

There's a theory on Facebook that Dorothy is Pistachio via Hades using the time travel spell. While I don't think that theory has much credibility, I do wonder if the writers would ever have an adult character be one of the babies. There was speculation about Merida being Pistachio (which seemed more likely with the red hair + archery), but the writers shot it down before her parents even got screen time. With all these babies (Snowflake, Pistachio, and Damien), it would seem something is being setup. Or they're just plot devices and/or props.

Edited April 15, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Ewwww.. no thanks.  

 

I don't watch promos so I didn't know Dorothy was back.  She was so bland and grating... I thought (and hoped) she was a one-off, even though I love the Oz books, Dorothy included.

[InsertWordHere]

With all these babies (Snowflake, Pistachio, and Damien), it would seem something is being setup. Or they're just plot devices and/or props.

I've felt for a long time that all these babies are leading up to some next generation flash forwards. This is also the only reason I think they would give CS a baby, because they won't be able to resist making the Rumbelle and CS offspring bitter enemies, star-crossed lovers, or both. With flash-forwards, they can just introduce the aged Captain Swan offspring without having to write in the relationship development it would take for Hook and Emma to get to that point or saddle JMo with a pregnancy pad for the seasons it would take for Emma to have a baby (unless she ate some magic onion rings) given how time moves on this show. It would be a cheat, but what else is new with these writers?

 

I am not saying I want any of this to happen, but at least it would help to reduce the amount of pre-curse EF flashbacks. I don't even want a CS baby, except perhaps as a last minute reveal in the series finale. 

[Camera One]

I would find it hard to be invested in flashforwards with the next generation, since the main characters wouldn't be in these flashforwards.  If they were, they would need age-up makeup, plus it would give away the actual finale, if we knew where they'd be 20 years from now.  

 

Both the Snowing baby and the Rumbelle babies were due to offscreen pregnancies, and the Zelena/Robin baby was to up the drama (and to insert Zelena into the show), so hopefully, they have no long-term plans for these babies.  

[KAOS Agent]

 

Both the Snowing baby and the Rumbelle babies were due to offscreen pregnancies, and the Zelena/Robin baby was to up the drama (and to insert Zelena into the show), so hopefully, they have no long-term plans for these babies.

 

I think the Rumbelle baby was created for short term drama as well. Emilie was seven months along when they filmed "Her Handsome Hero" and Belle had only conceived like a week ago in show time. They covered her up and it wasn't a big deal. They didn't need to write it in. Emilie gave birth a month before they finished filming and was resting at home in LA for a few weeks before that, so she'll be back and ready to go in July. All they needed to do to explain Belle's absence was to have her find out Rumpel's the Dark One again and leave town. They created a Rumbelle baby to drive the drama between Hades & Rumpelstiltskin. That's it. Later they can use it to redeem Rumpel because babies fix everything. I don't think that there are plans for this baby beyond that. 

Edited April 16, 2016 by KAOS Agent

[Trepie]

When I was watching, I was wondering if Zelena's daughter is going to be Persephone, but instead of being for Hades it's so Zelena (if she stays with Hades) can have her half the year.  Because they're all stupidly sympathetic to Zelena's motherly love, or whatever.  

I've been hanging on for the promised same-sex romance they've been promising.  It has to be Mulan, right? They can't bring her back to watch two other ladies fall in love, right?  That would be enraging.  I am all for Red Warrior.  I'd love a TLK where the pair has actually spent time together and developed that feeling, even if we haven't seen it.  Dorothy would be fine if she wasn't a terrible, terrible actor.  On the plus side Dorothy has all those gay Friends...

[Shanna Marie]

Both the Snowing baby and the Rumbelle babies were due to offscreen pregnancies, and the Zelena/Robin baby was to up the drama (and to insert Zelena into the show), so hopefully, they have no long-term plans for these babies.

Is it terrible of me to hope that Rumple and Belle do have to give their baby up? After all this time of Rumple crowing about magic always coming with a price, it would suck if he managed to skip out of paying the price for a deal he willingly made. He needs to face some consequences at some point. Plus, there are logistical issues for having that many babies in the cast. They can't all stay newborns and be played by blanket-wrapped dolls most of the time forever, and having infants makes it weird when the parents tromp off to another realm.

[Serena]

I've felt for a long time that all these babies are leading up to some next generation flash forwards. This is also the only reason I think they would give CS a baby, because they won't be able to resist making the Rumbelle and CS offspring bitter enemies, star-crossed lovers, or both.

I just spent 5 minutes trying to work out in my head if the CS and RB baby could be lovers, or are they bio related? I think they're not, except Baby!CS's half brother would be Baby!RB... half-nephew? I think?

[KingOfHearts]

How much you want the bet the Ruby/Snow interactions will be minimal this week? I would like to see Ruby's reaction to UnderGranny's this week, though.

[Camera One]

Why?  Their friendship was one of the best things about Season 1 flashbacks.  (sadly, I think you're right... they only like dangling carrots in front of us and then snatching them away and giving us Merida).

[KAOS Agent]

 

Sadly, I think you're right... they only like dangling carrots in front of us and then snatching them away and giving us Merida

 

Or in this case, Merida 2.0 aka Dorothy.

[InsertWordHere]

Yay! Emma finally gets to meet her uncle.

 

James looks super hot. 

[OnceUponAJen]

And, more Cora!

[Rumsy4]

Cora might get dumped in the River of Lost Souls by the end of the episode.