Camera One November 29, 2015 Share November 29, 2015 Good point. The only thing that seems to point to Emma being involved is it helps that no one remembers anything in her plan to have Zelena absorb the Darkness. So maybe this time, it was her interrupting Arthur and Zelena. What was Arthur's plan to "create a new Camelot" in Storybrooke? Link to comment
YaddaYadda November 29, 2015 Share November 29, 2015 What was Arthur's plan to "create a new Camelot" in Storybrooke? I think Arthur just saw and opportunity and decided to take it. I don't think he thinks they will be getting back to Camelot, and I'm not even sure he wants to get back to Camelot. Arthur should be carried off in a straight jacket. Link to comment
KAOS Agent November 29, 2015 Share November 29, 2015 How about in a super fun twist, this curse didn't require a heart to cast but a soul. Robin cast the curse by sharing his soul with Regina so that they could corral Zelena and get her back to where they could keep control of the baby. 1 Link to comment
babyPhat279 November 29, 2015 Share November 29, 2015 Are we sure there was a curse? Maybe Emma just took everyone's memories and then found a way to transport them home? Link to comment
Camera One November 29, 2015 Share November 29, 2015 (edited) Can't wait for tomorrow's episode. I'm expecting lots of wonderful Emma/Hook scenes, and a really satisfying explanation for how they got back to Storybrooke. I'm expecting Merlin to give us all the answers to the questions we've been wondering about. And of course, I expect many, many scenes devoted to Emma's relationship with her parents where they work out all their problems. I am also expecting an extended heartwarming scene with Granny being reunited with Red, and of course loads of great kitchen sink conversations with everyone. I also expect a big reveal which will make the whole Arthur/Guinevere/Lancelot story worth it. Seriously speaking though, I have traditionally enjoyed the penultimate episode of a half-season the most, so I hope at the very least, that pattern will hold for me and this next episode will suck less than the season so far. Edited November 29, 2015 by Camera One 3 Link to comment
KingOfHearts November 29, 2015 Share November 29, 2015 (edited) Pretty sure this next episode is going to be in the same vein as A Curious Thing. We'll probably go through a bunch of PLOT PLOT PLOT to answer some final questions, then the winter finale will be mostly setup for 5B. Edited November 29, 2015 by KingOfHearts 3 Link to comment
Camera One November 29, 2015 Share November 29, 2015 (edited) I just saw the title of the new episode thread "Broken Heart". There must be many layers of meaning in that. Hook and Emma both might be feeling a broken heart due to the events of "Birth". And it will probably be literal as someone in the episode will break their heart into two or more pieces. I can already hear Dark Emma and Dark Hook singing "Don't Go Breaking My Heart" with the other characters singing parts of the chorus. Edited November 29, 2015 by Camera One Link to comment
PixiePaws1 November 29, 2015 Share November 29, 2015 (edited) I just saw the title of the new episode thread "Broken Heart". There must be many layers of meaning in that. Hook and Emma both might be feeling a broken heart due to the events of "Birth". And it will probably be literal as someone in the episode will break their heart into two or more pieces. I can already hear Dark Emma and Dark Hook singing "Don't Go Breaking My Heart" with the other characters singing parts of the chorus.a lot of speculation has gone on about heart splitting because of the title. What we are lacking information -wise is how Emma and Killian might already be linked through the sword. ... for example, did uniting the sword join their souls? There has to be some sort of repercussions for that and for the way in which they became DOs. People can call Emma selfish for not letting Killian die the way he wanted (personally I think her grief and history put her in the head space of just being an instinctual reaction) but Killian became a DO due to an overwhelming love....and we know why Emma's a DO. Edited November 29, 2015 by PixiePaws1 Link to comment
YaddaYadda November 29, 2015 Share November 29, 2015 There's the whole overlooking of the sword being the actual Holy Grail, which is there a significance to this at all? 1 Link to comment
Rumsy4 November 29, 2015 Share November 29, 2015 (edited) There's the whole overlooking of the sword being the actual Holy Grail, which is there a significance to this at all? "Look how clever we are!!" Edited November 29, 2015 by Rumsy4 2 Link to comment
KingOfHearts November 29, 2015 Share November 29, 2015 There's the whole overlooking of the sword being the actual Holy Grail, which is there a significance to this at all? Looking back at S1, it's really weird that the dagger is actually the Holy Grail. Rumple stabbed a bunch of people to death with a sacred, religious artifact. Only on this show... 1 Link to comment
Camera One November 30, 2015 Share November 30, 2015 Can't wait to find out who created the Holy Grail. You know that's coming in Season 6. Link to comment
KAOS Agent November 30, 2015 Share November 30, 2015 The grail's origin story is probably the lead in to 5B. It was created not by benevolent & generous gods, but rather one malevolent or mischievous god to screw with the puny humans. Now Emma is on a quest to kick his ass, but ultimately only succeeds in pissing him off. In the end, Regina pulls hyper platinum soul magic out and destroys the god and proves once and for all that she is the Saviour. All hail Regina the God Killer! 1 Link to comment
Camera One November 30, 2015 Share November 30, 2015 I'm sitting here waiting to watch, and the "Continuity, Nitpicks, Unanswered Questions" is lighting up. LOL, can't wait. 2 Link to comment
PixiePaws1 November 30, 2015 Share November 30, 2015 (edited) i suppose it could be twisted that Killian's ultimate revenge would be against the Darkness...so defeating it once and for all would complete his revenge arc. Mr Vague said they needed Nimue.and as she was the First...knocking her off in corporeal form as she is now..would that defeat the Darkness for good? . my problem with this is would be that it puts the responsibility for all the murder and mutilations and misery caused by Rumple onto the Darkness. ..and I absolutely refuse to acknowledge he was anything but enthusiastically choosing to do those things. The Darkness just gave him the tools....do i think he would have done evil without the Darkness? No ...but he did murder to get the power in the first place. Edited November 30, 2015 by PixiePaws1 6 Link to comment
Rumsy4 November 30, 2015 Share November 30, 2015 i suppose it could be twisted that Killian's ultimate revenge would be against the Darkness...so defeating it once and for all would complete his revenge arc. Mr Vague said they needed Nimue.and as she was the First...knocking her off in corporeal form as she is now..would that defeat the Darkness for good? . Merlin was criminally vague. But, that's pretty much my idea too. 1 Link to comment
InsertWordHere November 30, 2015 Share November 30, 2015 In that scene when Hook is in the vault and he has his bad things that have happened to him montage, he wasn't seeing all the things Rumple has done that have negatively impacted his life, he was seeing all the things the darkness has done. Hook sees the Dark One and Emma as separate entities, he sees Killian Jones and what he is now as two separate entities. Why would he make a deal with the darkness to get his revenge against Rumple, who isn't the Dark One anymore? The fight with Rumple on his ship was just as false as the date with Emma on his ship. She set it all up to get the sword and Hook set up the fight to get the blood. So if we're supposed to believe that Hook is allowing the Dark Ones to come back so he can get his revenge on Rumple, the writing has failed here. Besides getting the blood, all that fight did was give Rumple confidence and Excalibur, which Hook conveniently told him could kill him. So why let the Dark Ones in if Hook doesn't care about killing Rumple and instead wants to kill the Dark Ones? It's because Merlin told them to contact Nimue. 5 Link to comment
Rumsy4 November 30, 2015 Share November 30, 2015 Any ideas on why Merlin was brewing the Dark Curse? Was he planning on having one of the Nevengers cast the Dark Curse with some shitty reason to save Emma? Or was it just some potion to leave a voicemail in case he was killed before the Nevengers returned? Did Hook have a second potion brewing somewhere before Emma summoned him with Excalibur? Link to comment
InsertWordHere November 30, 2015 Share November 30, 2015 “Of all the paths I foresaw for your daughter, I’m afraid that this was the darkest. We should return to Granny’s. Even without my magic, I still have enough ingredients to make preparations." After he says this, Merlin makes his voicemail message telling them to contact Nimue even though the others were standing right outside (which tells me he knew the curse and memory wipe were coming) and presumably makes the potion for the Dark Curse. Those are the two preparations he was referring to. Why the curse? Because he knew they needed to get to Rumple so the Dark Ones could rise from hell. For some reason, he wanted Nimue in the mortal realm and he wanted someone to seek her out. I know Merlin seems a little shady, but I highly doubt it's so she could kill everyone in Storybrooke and snuff out the light. 3 Link to comment
YaddaYadda November 30, 2015 Share November 30, 2015 I guess this will be debunked in the final episode, but I've really been wondering whether Nimue is actually living like Rumple, without darkness, plus they actually brought up the Lady of the Lake who is traditionally Nimue. A lot of things made no sense to me about the Dark Curse. For one, Merlin is brewing it, knowing exactly what the final ingredient is. No one in that gang will commit to that. Hook had already said he wouldn't crush Emma's heart, and Emma will not crush his heart after what she's just gone through, and she will not do that to her son, and Regina will not do that to Henry, and Robin, and Snowing have no way of coming back from a second dark curse casting. That only leaves Merlin's heart. But when Rumple changes into Nimue, he looks surprised to see her there, so what in the world was the purpose of him brewing that evil concoction? He's making preparations, and no one is asking him any questions. Everyone is outside, but he's not telling them anything. It boggles the mind that no one is questioning anything this guy is doing. He's just got telling Snowing that he foresaw several paths for Emma, and they just go on twiddling their thumbs. 4 Link to comment
Rumsy4 November 30, 2015 Share November 30, 2015 After he says this, Merlin makes his voicemail message telling them to contact Nimue even though the others were standing right outside (which tells me he knew the curse and memory wipe were coming) and presumably makes the potion for the Dark Curse. Those are the two preparations he was referring to. Why the curse? Because he knew they needed to get to Rumple so the Dark Ones could rise from hell. For some reason, he wanted Nimue in the mortal realm and he wanted someone to seek her out. I know Merlin seems a little shady, but I highly doubt it's so she could kill everyone in Storybrooke and snuff out the light. That could well be it. But as yadda yadda said, he seemed surprised that Hook was going to crush his heart to cast the Curse. Who did he think was going to be sacrificed? Sadly, I don't think Nimue is still alive. Boat!Nimue told Hook she and the others were there in the flesh. 1 Link to comment
YaddaYadda November 30, 2015 Share November 30, 2015 Sadly, I don't think Nimue is still alive. Boat!Nimue told Hook she and the others were there in the flesh. True, but what about Clippy? I mean technically, he should be in the flesh too, no? Link to comment
Rumsy4 November 30, 2015 Share November 30, 2015 True, but what about Clippy? I mean technically, he should be in the flesh too, no? I guess he would be the exception as real Rumple is still alive. Link to comment
KingOfHearts November 30, 2015 Share November 30, 2015 I'm trying to think why Merlin would send them to Nimue if she's the master Big Bad. Either... * He thinks she's redeemable and she's the only option to defeat the darkness. He hopes Team Storybrooke can convince her. * Undead!Nimue is actually good, the Clippy!Nimue is just the darkness pretending to be her. Undead!Nimue is pulling a con on the darkness and is actually hear to snuff it out instead of the light. * Nimue was split into two entities - Light!Nimue and Dark!Nimue. Light!Nimue is the Lady of the Lake, while Dark!Nimue was killed. Dark!Nimue is out to kill Light!Nimue, thus "snuffing out the light". Link to comment
YaddaYadda November 30, 2015 Share November 30, 2015 * Nimue was split into two entities - Light!Nimue and Dark!Nimue. Light!Nimue is the Lady of the Lake, while Dark!Nimue was killed. Dark!Nimue is out to kill Light!Nimue, thus "snuffing out the light". That's sort of what i'm thinking. I don't really think anything else makes sense. She's the only one who can destroy the Dark One. You know what would've helped? If our merry band of idiots had asked Merlin questions, and forced answers out of him, instead of some vague bullshit. They must be happy sitting there in the library, twisting in the wind. Link to comment
kili November 30, 2015 Share November 30, 2015 (edited) I'm trying to think why Merlin would send them to Nimue if she's the master Big Bad. Merlin is the same guy who sent the good guys to do battle with Arthur for Excalibur knowing that one scratch from the sword would kill them and didn't warn them about it. Why not send them to find Big Bad Nimue? What could possibly go wrong? Edited November 30, 2015 by kili 3 Link to comment
KingOfHearts November 30, 2015 Share November 30, 2015 Oh and by the way - Arthur has to do something with the climax too. I forgot exactly what the prophecy was, but somehow he's supposed to use Excalibur to save Camelot. Link to comment
LizaD November 30, 2015 Share November 30, 2015 It's really hard to speculate based off of onscreen material because we can't trust the writers to hold true to their material or any kind of logic. Emma and her overly dramatic "you must be punished" meant nothing. The story the Apprentice told the audience about Merlin and the DO was a straight up lie. The Excalibur warning still makes little sense. I have a feeling the voicemail won't make any sense either. Dollars to donuts, they already forgot what they wrote for Merlin's voicemail. I've gotten more guesses right based off of wacky speculations that are based on some outlandiish soap opera tropes than I have trying to adhere to their script. Is that frustrating to anyone else? That the story isn't structured in a way that you can speculate about the plot? 6 Link to comment
Shanna Marie November 30, 2015 Share November 30, 2015 Is that frustrating to anyone else? That the story isn't structured in a way that you can speculate about the plot? Constantly. This show's writing reminds me of a New Year's Eve party I went to once that was billed as a "murder mystery party." There were clue-like items on each table, and each place setting had a notepad and pen for taking notes and keeping track of theories. At the beginning of the evening, the emcee told us what the crime was, and every so often throughout the evening, he'd come back to give us another clue. Then just before midnight, they revealed who the murderer was -- and it was some random thing that had absolutely nothing to do with any clues that had gone before. The clues on the table had nothing to do with anything. The whole thing was just an icebreaker to give people something to talk about. Even if someone had been diligent about keeping track of the information we were given, there was no way anyone would have been able to come to the solution they gave because it wasn't set up at all and was just some silly punchline. That's the way they write this show. You can keep track of all the clues and be aware of the character traits and what makes sense for the characters to do in each situation, but you'd still never get from point A to their point Z because the critical pieces of information won't be revealed until a last-second twist and the characters behave according to plot needs rather than their actual established characterizations. 6 Link to comment
Camera One December 1, 2015 Share December 1, 2015 If Merlin wanted someone how defeat Nimue in the flesh, it can't be by killing her. Since wouldn't that make someone super dark, even though she's a psycho murderer? No, the only way to defeat her is by LOVING her. Now who's willing to have a relationship with her? Anyone? Anyone? If you look past the green skin and the I-wanna-kill-you eyes, she does enjoy long boatrides and her love can last centuries if not millennia. A&E is all about twists, and there's no way they're writing Hook off the show, and CS is still an endgame pairing, so I do think that Hook is playing a long con. Once again, he's doing the wrong things for the right reasons. Of course, none of this was evident from his actions, demeanor, or tone in "Broken Heart', but that's irrelevant when continuity doesn't matter. Link to comment
KingOfHearts December 1, 2015 Share December 1, 2015 (edited) I was originally thinking dying would cure someone of the Dark One curse. But then Nimue showed up still DO'ed with her cloaked buddies, so that went down the drain. Whatever fixes Emma and Hook has to some sort of ritual. I find a TLK doubtful because you're dealing with two forces of darkness keeping them from wants to get rid of the power. However, it's also possible because of all the setup with Hook and Emma forgetting Clippy!Rumple when they focus on the love for each other. A double curse breaking would be neat. Edited December 1, 2015 by KingOfHearts 1 Link to comment
Rumsy4 December 1, 2015 Share December 1, 2015 If Merlin wanted someone how defeat Nimue in the flesh, it can't be by killing her. Since wouldn't that make someone super dark, even though she's a psycho murderer? No, the only way to defeat her is by LOVING her. Now who's willing to have a relationship with her? Anyone? Anyone? If you look past the green skin and the I-wanna-kill-you eyes, she does enjoy long boatrides and her love can last centuries if not millennia. All she needs is to become a mother. Problem solved. Merlin should have got on that instead of tethering her. All the ensuing mess could have been avoided. I was originally thinking dying would cure someone of the Dark One curse. But then Nimue showed up still DO'ed with her cloaked buddies, so that went down the drain. Whatever fixes Emma and Hook has to some sort of ritual. I find a TLK doubtful because you're dealing with two forces of darkness keeping them from wants to get rid of the power. However, it's also possible because of all the setup with Hook and Emma forgetting Clippy!Rumple when they focus on the love for each other. A double curse breaking would be neat. Death does not cure the Dark Curse, otherwise Rumple would have been mortal when Neal brought him back. Emma was working on a Darkness Transference spell to put all the Darkness into Zelena. I guess if the heroes manage to put all Darkness into Nimue and kill her with Excalibur, the Dark Curse will be defeated for good. But that would turn the person who kills Nimue a villain, as heroes don't kill. That person will be the main villain of 5B. 1 Link to comment
Camera One December 1, 2015 Share December 1, 2015 But that would turn the person who kills Nimue a villain, as heroes don't kill. It's impossible to win in this world. Shame on all the heroes in every single film and TV show out there, LOL. 4 Link to comment
KingOfHearts December 1, 2015 Share December 1, 2015 (edited) Death does not cure the Dark Curse, otherwise Rumple would have been mortal when Neal brought him back. Until 5x10 I just assumed Rumple didn't die. I thought he was simply teleported to the Dark One's Vault, like Hook was. But nope, apparently the laws of magic mean nothing. But that would turn the person who kills Nimue a villain, as heroes don't kill. It's impossible to win in this world. Imagine playing a video game where you couldn't kill anything. Poor Princess Peach would be stuck in another castle forever. Edited December 1, 2015 by KingOfHearts 5 Link to comment
Camera One December 1, 2015 Share December 1, 2015 (edited) Not only that, you have to invite the villains in for lasagna or you lose health points from the black spot in your heart. Now, no way they can give us a sob story for EVERY Dark One in the boat in a single episode, can they? Edited December 1, 2015 by Camera One 4 Link to comment
Souris December 1, 2015 Share December 1, 2015 Merlin could only be killed by a Dark One, correct? So it stands to reason that newly corporeal again Nimue could also only be killed by a Dark One, since her immortality sprang from the same source as Merlin's, the Grail. And the Grail is now Excalibur -- it would be fitting that the thing that gave her immortality would be the thing that kills her. So I think either Hook or Emma ends up stabbing her with Excalibur (I want it to be Hook, to walk back his evil from last ep). Since Nimue has said she's a part of all Dark Ones, I think killing her would then kill all the other Dark Ones. The rub would be not killing Emma, so she would have to be de-Darkened first somehow. Link to comment
Rumsy4 December 1, 2015 Share December 1, 2015 Now, no way they can give us a sob story for EVERY Dark One in the boat in a single episode, can they? Take that back!!! Now!!!! 6 Link to comment
Camera One December 1, 2015 Share December 1, 2015 Since none of the heroes can taint themselves by killing Nimue, let's walk through the possibilities: 1) Nimue stupidly kills herself thinking that she would achieve full immortality by stabbing herself with Excalibur and becoming "one" with the Holy Grail. And it doesn't work. Boo hoo, onto the next crisis. 2) One of the other Dark Ones who is introduced in the next episode kills Nimue. Treachery comes from within. 3) Evil villain of 5B shows up and kills Nimue. 4) Nimue realizes the error of her ways when a Middlemist flower blows into her face and she remembers all the time she lost with Merlin, who's dead now because of her. She destroys herself for the good of all. 5) Rumple steps up and stabs Nimue. Because we know he has to remain the Dark One since this show needs to be in stasis at all times. 6) Arthur realizes the error of his ways and steps up to kill Nimue and dies himself as he gives his blessing to Guinivere and Lancelot, who's back from visiting his mother at the lake. 7) Zelena's baby knocks the sword over and stabs Nimue. Cue Evil Baby of 5B. 8) Merida wonders if she will be a good queen, and Nimue kills herself to be spared the agony of listening to the whining. 7 Link to comment
kili December 1, 2015 Share December 1, 2015 8) Merida wonders if she will be a good queen, and Nimue kills herself to be spared the agony of listening to the whining. If that doesn't cause Nimue to kill herself, I don't know what will. I guess Merida is very important to resolving this arc. Link to comment
InsertWordHere December 1, 2015 Share December 1, 2015 Another option: Merlin possesses Hook and kills Nimue through him. 2) One of the other Dark Ones who is introduced in the next episode kills Nimue. Treachery comes from within. There really should be some treachery going on here. It makes no sense that all the Dark Ones would be working together. Common goal or not, each one was killed by one of the people next to them, except for Zoso. 6) Arthur realizes the error of his ways and steps up to kill Nimue and dies himself as he gives his blessing to Guinivere and Lancelot, who's back from visiting his mother at the lake. This might be it. Otherwise, what is the point of Arthur? 1 Link to comment
Rumsy4 December 1, 2015 Share December 1, 2015 (edited) Poor Arthur. He seemed a complex villain at first---but now he's become very cartoonish. The Bear King did a number on him, and Dark Hook finished him off. lol Edited December 1, 2015 by Rumsy4 Link to comment
KingOfHearts December 1, 2015 Share December 1, 2015 Now, no way they can give us a sob story for EVERY Dark One in the boat in a single episode, can they? What do you think the special 100th episode is for? ;) 3 Link to comment
PixiePaws1 December 1, 2015 Share December 1, 2015 If that doesn't cause Nimue to kill herself, I don't know what will. I guess Merida is very important to resolving this arc.this made me laugh out loud on the train..there was staring from strangers :o (( 4 Link to comment
kili December 1, 2015 Share December 1, 2015 Another option: Merlin possesses Hook and kills Nimue through him. That option would make me very angry. Merlin has been a vague puppet master all along. Him literally becoming a puppet master to Hook (who has already been puppet mastered by Clippy!Rumple and Clippy!Nimue) would be just one more screw you to the character of Hook. He's just a meat puppet at this point. Merlin had his chance to kill Nimue before 500 years of destructive actions by the Dark One and he just decided to cry about it instead. He doesn't get to swoop in after using all these people and get the victory. Let Hook or Emma be the hero of this one. Don't just have them be the convenient chumps for Merlin's plan. Of course, me hating dumba$$ Merlin and his platitudes and non-answers and secrets has nothing to do with this opinion (only it totally does). 1 Link to comment
Camera One December 1, 2015 Share December 1, 2015 (edited) I don't think Merlin has it in him to kill anyone. We might see a missing scene where he convinces Hook that he has to crush his heart or something, and somehow, that sacrifice will render Nimue and the other Dark Ones inert when paired with some random object/occurrence like a baby's first "Mama". Now will she say it first to Zelena or Regina? Tune in to find out! Edited December 1, 2015 by Camera One Link to comment
InsertWordHere December 1, 2015 Share December 1, 2015 (edited) Those newborn baby cries might still be used for something. Along with the unused squid ink. Edited December 1, 2015 by InsertWordHere 1 Link to comment
Souris December 1, 2015 Share December 1, 2015 Merlin said in the last ep that "even without my magic, I still have the ingredients...." That implies that when he was untethered from Excalibur, he somehow lost his magic. Does that mean his magic was transferred into Hook? Would that mean that Hook would then have Merlin's memories, etc.? Or did Merlin's magic just go into the ether or the nearest tree? If that's the case, perhaps he could magically be reborn or could contact people through his magic. Hey, maybe he's communing with Dopey, who will begin to make infuriatingly vague pronouncements after he's de-treed. Link to comment
FierceAfroChick December 1, 2015 Share December 1, 2015 Those newborn baby cries might still be used for something. Along with the unused squid ink. I might be missing a scene; I thought Hook used all the squid ink on Emma? *sighs* Going spoiler free is going to be so hard. Link to comment
InsertWordHere December 1, 2015 Share December 1, 2015 I might be missing a scene; I thought Hook used all the squid ink on Emma? There was some left. Emma gave it to Gold and he put in his safe, which we know Dark Ones can get into. Link to comment
FierceAfroChick December 1, 2015 Share December 1, 2015 There was some left. Emma gave it to Gold and he put in his safe, which we know Dark Ones can get into. Ah...yes. I plan on rewatching this episode...my emotions were so compromised, I know I can't remember some of it. Link to comment
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