Speculation WITHOUT Spoilers: Lalalalala! I can't hear you!

[Selina K]

Sigh, so above meant to respond to what I quoted.

I actually think it would be very hot to see non consummation with Emma pushing and Hook saying "not until it's just you." The Temptation of Captain Hook, if you will. Ymmv, but I would be on board for the tension without fulfillment until Dark!Emma is over with.

I would love to see Jen play Dark!Emma with some subtlety - like the polar opposite of Regina and Rumple. So you can see the conflict and gradual inundation of darker / more selfish acts, but it isn't Wham! Evil boobs and dead villagers galore. Sometimes I wish they would let Jen write - she seems to have a much better handle on character motivation than the writers at times.

[Mari]

Maybe Dark Emma lets Zelena out.  They have added her as a regular, but they can't have all her scenes in the cell.  

We could also have 2,348 flashbacks of all those times Zelena came this close to stomping on Regina, but didn't because reasons.​

 

Edited June 22, 2015 by Mari

[Shanna Marie]

Very accurate A&E cosplay, except you forgot to answer a question with "I hope so!" or "we'd love to see that," even though they're the ones writing the damn show.

[Camera One]

Very accurate A&E cosplay, except you forgot to answer a question with "I hope so!" or "we'd love to see that," even though they're the ones writing the damn show.

 

Ha!  I totally forgot... "I would be really disappointed if we didn't see that."

[Dianthus]

Didn't Jen say something about them being intimate w/o kissing? That suggests there won't be any Dark!Emma/Hook sexy times, IMO.

[Souris]

That was a line of hers from an interview back when his lips were cursed.

[legaleagle53]

Ha!  I totally forgot... "I would be really disappointed if we didn't see that."

 

Which, of course, is code for "Damn straight we're going to see that!"

[Shanna Marie]

Assuming that Emma's disappearance means she's elsewhere and they'll need to go in search of her, who would be part of the search party? As I've been thinking about it, I've realized that there are some difficult logistics here.

 

Hook is obvious -- he has nothing else really in his life but Emma, and she's the focus of his life

David is very likely -- he's her father. Or would he be willing to leave behind his wife and baby?

But Snow is probably unlikely, given that she has a newborn and it would be a bad idea to take an infant on a trip like that (plus difficult to film since the baby would have to be always there and no chance of "Ashley is babysitting" excuses), and I can't imagine her leaving an infant behind

Henry would probably want to go, but there we have some real-world constraints with him being played by an underage actor -- his working time is limited, so it would be difficult to involve him in a story with a whole group together. In Neverland, he was separate from the group and didn't need a lot of screen time, but if he's on the questing party, there would be limitations

Would Regina go? With Emma missing, she's the remaining parent for Henry, so would it be a good idea to leave him behind alone with Snow and the baby? In real-world concerns, she's the only character with any ties at all to the Zelena and Robin stories, so how would they deal with that if she's off searching for Camelot, or whatever? Then again, they love Regina, so would they leave her out of a main plot? And she might be useful, as their remaining magic user

I suppose going on the quest would give Robin something to do and a chance to interact with other characters, but would he leave Roland and his unborn child behind? (Then again, this is Robin ...)

Maybe Belle would want to join in on a quest to find Merlin, with the hope that Merlin would be able to give them a way to help Rumple

If Rumple is conscious again, he might want on the quest supposedly to help but with the hope of getting his power back

[Curio]

Assuming that Emma's disappearance means she's elsewhere and they'll need to go in search of her, who would be part of the search party?

 

As much as I'd like for Emma to be in another realm after her disappearance, I just know the show is going to squander that potential suspense (because that's what this show is best at: squandering potential) and the very first scene of Season 5 will probably be of Emma reappearing in front of everyone on the road after they think she disappeared. And then all the main characters will go on a quest to Camelot to find Merlin because screw everyone else in Storybrooke, those regular citizens don't need a mayor or any magical people to help them out when another monster inevitably attacks the town.

Edited June 23, 2015 by Curio

[YaddaYadda]

I also think she's still in Storybrooke.  Am I the only person who thinks that the dagger might not work on her?  

 

I wonder if the Camelot gang isn't already in Storybrooke.  I mean we don't know how far Camelot was from Cora Dome for one.  If they weren't in the bubble, then they were probably dragged by the curse along with everyone.  If they weren't and were under Cora Dome then they were probably brought to Storybrooke by the second curse, along with Merlin's sprawling mansion.  

[Shanna Marie]

As much as I'd like for Emma to be in another realm after her disappearance, I just know the show is going to squander that potential suspense (because that's what this show is best at: squandering potential) and the very first scene of Season 5 will probably be of Emma reappearing in front of everyone on the road after they think she disappeared.

Unfortunately, that's the conclusion I came to after thinking about who could go on the trip. And as much as I'd love an arc that's a buddy road trip with David and Hook while the Dark One in Emma's body is taking over King Arthur's court, and her dad and boyfriend have to find a way to bring out the real Emma so they can eject the Dark One and save Camelot, I can't imagine the show doing that. There are too many characters right now who'd have to be left behind.

[Curio]

And as much as I'd love an arc that's a buddy road trip with David and Hook while the Dark One in Emma's body is taking over King Arthur's court, and her dad and boyfriend have to find a way to bring out the real Emma so they can eject the Dark One and save Camelot, I can't imagine the show doing that.

 

It's a damn shame the show would never do this, because I'd be all over it. That plot might even get me back into re-watching the episodes multiple times again, instead of watching each episode once live and dreading re-watching certain scenes again for the sake of accuracy when I post on these boards.

 

So, I don't think it's a spoiler that next season will be very centered around Emma's arc and her Dark One status. But now I'm starting to wonder how the show will deal with her "transformation" into darkness, and instead of going full sparkly imp, maybe she'll literally turn into a black swan. I don't know too much about the real life Swan Princess fairy tale stories, but ever since the show introduced Emma Swan, I've been waiting for the writers to do a plot where Emma is cursed into turning into a swan. (One of my favorite movies growing up was about a prince who was cursed by a witch to turn into a polar bear, but I don't know how well that would translate onto this show. But if Once did try to tackle it, you can't deny the comedic gold they'd have with Colin attempting to act really serious opposite a real life swan. Actually, it would probably be a terrible CGI swan.)

Edited June 23, 2015 by Curio

[FabulousTater]

I really don't think Emma was sent off to Camelot or anywhere else. FWIW I think she's still in Storybrooke and I prefer that scenario to any other. I think that the only interesting part of turning Emma into the Dark One is how that affects Emma herself and her relationships with her loved ones. And all those effects can't be "explored" (that's in quotes because my idea of exploring and A&E's are not the same thing) if Emma's not in the same place as everyone else. (assuming there's anything interesting about this story line that doesn't feel like a contrived ass pull created for the explicit purpose of knocking down the real good guys another 50 pegs and making the show's resident a-holes look more like misunderstood woobies versus the actual evil a-holes they really are. I really, really, really, really hate the idea that doing something utterly selfless and good makes you evil. I hate that they've made Emma into the Dark One with everything. I've. Got. *loathing intensifies*).

IMO, having Emma separated from everyone else comes off as mostly angst porn. Turning the narrative into Hook and Charming's (+ others) adventures to find Emma changes the story that should largely be about Emma and her relationships to instead about Hook, Charming's (et al) angst. And for all the whining we do about Woegina the black hole, I think that would turn Hook into a black hole of angst. Which I guess if your in this for Hook is great, but if you're not then no thanks.

Having Emma disappear to Camelot and being all villainous there IMO isn't interesting outside of "Ooooh, we get so see Camelot!" and that's something that can be done without mysteriously banishing Emma to that realm. An Emma in Camelot would be threatening/interacting with characters we don't know and have no vested interest in and that I think lowers the dramatic tension. To incorporate Camelot and those characters, the show could easily interweve Camelot flashbacks/flash sideways with the current Storybrooke shenanigans -- as Hook and et al. slowly figure out a way to get rid of the Dark One that's cursed/possessed Emma, for example. Plus, I don't get why Emma would disappear to another realm, but the dagger, which now has her name on it, is left behind. That makes no sense, though lack of sense is something that has never stopped these writers.

[Curio]

IMO, having Emma separated from everyone else comes off as mostly angst porn. Turning the narrative into Hook and Charming's (+ others) adventures to find Emma changes the story that should largely be about Emma and her relationships to instead about Hook, Charming's (et al) angst.

 

I think there can be a balancing act between searching for Emma for part of the arc, and also exploring her relationships with her family and loved ones. It doesn't have to be an either/or situation. Much like how Rumple was only gone for one episode in 4B after he was banished, the story arc to find Emma in Camelot (or whatever realm she's in) could be wrapped up in one or two episodes so that it doesn't focus too much on the angst of everyone else searching for her. The beginning of 5A can be everyone dealing with trying to find Emma and Emma coming to terms with her new role in a strange new land, the middle can be when everyone finds Emma and how those relationships are impacted, and the final arc can be the fallout of those relationships and whatever the show decides to do with the search for Merlin.

 

I don't get why Emma would disappear to another realm, but the dagger, which now has her name on it, is left behind. That makes no sense, though lack of sense is something that has never stopped these writers.

 

It's a weird set up because it doesn't make sense both ways. If Emma disappeared to another realm, it's strange that her dagger was left behind. But if she's just chilling in Storybrooke, that whole scene where she disappears into the cloud of smoke also doesn't make sense because why would the smoke make someone vanish into thin air, only to pop them out in the exact same spot? The second scenario seems a lot more anti-climactic to me. I'm just imagining everyone staring at the dagger on the street after Emma disappeared looking all sad and depressed, and then that sadness lasts for exactly 2 minutes when Emma randomly appears again at Granny's decked out in black leather and showing more evil cleavage.

 

It's like a magician making his assistant disappear on stage. Is it more exciting for the magician to reveal she was in the same box on center stage the entire time (i.e. Emma is in Storybrooke), or is it more exciting to reveal her sitting next to a random crowd member in the balcony (i.e. Emma is in another realm)? I'm hoping for the second scenario, but expecting the first.

Edited June 23, 2015 by Curio

[RadioGirl27]

 

Turning the narrative into Hook and Charming's (+ others) adventures to find Emma changes the story that should largely be about Emma and her relationships to instead about Hook, Charming's (et al) angst.

Oh, don't worry. This is never going to happen. I'm pretty sure this storyline is going to start looking like it's about Emma but end up being all about Rumple. And I doubt Hook, Snow and Charming are going to have the important role many people think they are going to have in all this.

Edited June 23, 2015 by RadioGirl27

[Shanna Marie]

It's a weird set up because it doesn't make sense both ways. If Emma disappeared to another realm, it's strange that her dagger was left behind. But if she's just chilling in Storybrooke, that whole scene where she disappears into the cloud of smoke also doesn't make sense because why would the smoke make someone vanish into thin air, only to pop them out in the exact same spot?

That's where I stand about it -- if she's going to vanish in thin air, she needs to go elsewhere, not just be popped across town. If she's going to still be in town, then she shouldn't have vanished. Instead of seeing the dagger with her name on it, when the smoke cleared we should have seen her, but darker. And why would the Dark One, or whatever entity it was that made it all happen, just move her elsewhere in Storybrooke?

 

About the only explanation I can think of for her not to have been taken elsewhere is if she herself was the one who cleared out so she wouldn't risk hurting her loved ones or because she didn't want them to see her that way. Then I might be able to buy that she popped herself into the Mansion.

 

My guess on the dagger being left behind is that it has something to do with what the Apprentice described as the initial concept of the Dark One -- channel that energy into a person who could be controlled via the dagger. The dagger was meant as a checks-and-balances measure, and it was supposed to have been held by someone trustworthy who could keep the Dark One from doing anything bad. That would keep the Darkness under control. But it failed along the way when untrustworthy people got their hands on the dagger and started using the dagger to make the Dark One do things for their benefit, and then later when Rumple had his own dagger and wasn't managed by anyone. It may even be that Emma's sacrifice goes back to the earliest concept -- I would hope this wasn't something that was done to someone unwilling, but rather a willing volunteer making the sacrifice and putting him/herself under the control of another in order to save the world from the Darkness. So now that Emma's done the same thing, that means the dagger has to be left with people she trusts to control it, and she wouldn't have taken it with her, or if someone else poofed her away, she wouldn't have been allowed to keep it.

[Souris]

They're going to give the dagger to Regina, aren't they?

[YaddaYadda]

Maybe she's overwhelmed by the powers of the Dark One and that's why she vanished in the first place but her last sort of show of strength was to drop the dagger knowing that she could be summoned with it?  

 

We don't even know if the show is picking up right where it left off or if it's skipping in the timeline.  If it picks up right where it left off, then Emma is in Storybrooke, she probably wakes up somewhere dazed and confused.  If they skip in the timeline, then she's probably vanished in another realm and we get to the part where everyone figured out how to get to her and where she is and is on their way to find her and are already reuniting with her towards the end of the episode.

 

I'm not adverse (actually I'm sort of hoping) that they do some flashbacks for Emma of more quiet times with her family and Hook.  She can have a flashback of a family dinner or having drinks at the Rabbit Hole with her boyfriend or doing something with her son if she's separated from her family.  You know, something to keep her sane.

 

One thing I wondered about the AU is how Emma kept her sanity while she was chained and locked up and it sort of reminded me of how she was locked up before with basically zero hope.

[FabulousTater]

I figure they ended with Emma disappearing and the focus on the dagger with her name on it for one simple reason: Dramatic effect. That's all. There's no mythology here, it's just about the shocking!twist. TBH, aside from just hating that they turned Emma into the Dark One, it's actually not a bad cliffhanger. And I think from that POV it works best as a cliffhanger if the last shot is of just the dagger but now it has Emma's name on it. It leaves the audience with one statement -- Emma is now the Dark One -- but many questions; What does it mean Emma's the Dark One now? Is she all sparkly? Is she still kinda herself but a Dr. Jekyll Mr Hyde thing going on? Maybe she's completely possessed by the Dark One with no control or like the Fred/Illyria scenario from Angel.

 

I think from these writers' POV leaving things like that is preferred because it gives them all spring and summer to figure out where they want to go with it. By not showing us Emma, they haven't committed to much of anything other than they made Emma the Dark One because her name is on the dagger. 

 

I think there can be a balancing act between searching for Emma for part of the arc, and also exploring her relationships with her family and loved ones. It doesn't have to be an either/or situation. Much like how Rumple was only gone for one episode in 4B after he was banished,

I'm just not seeing a separation as anything other than angst porn. I think we all know Hook would miss and be very worried about Emma and that he will move heaven and earth to get to her, so writing all this angst wouldn't reveal anything new about him or anyone else. To me it sounds like angst for the sake of angst.

 

I think you can still have those moments that show the emotional repercussions (to Emma and her loved ones) because of what's happened to Emma but without separating Emma from everyone else. I think it's more powerful if Hook and her family are witness to whatever she has turned into (or is turning into) because it gives them something to react to and deal with rather than it being a long boat ride with a bunch of sad faced "heroes" who don't know anything other than  "Welp, Emma's the Dark One and missing..." Plus, I just think it would feel like higher stakes if Emma is still in town with everyone else and they are having to deal with her (and the threat I assume she poses) from the get go.

 

For me this show works best when all the characters are having to deal with each other (and even better when they are talking to each other one on one). IMO I think that's one of the reasons season 3A worked because the writers figured out that these core characters dealing with each other and talking to each other about their "ish" is what the audience wants. Rumpel has always been a lone gunman of sorts so separating him from the group in 3A didn't really hurt anything too much (other than it went on too long and turned Rumpel into a sad sack). What the problem with the writing still is is that the pacing doesn't slown down enough on letting these characters (that aren't Woegina) talk with each other one on one (the one on one conversations are too far and few between, IMO) and the emphasis is always on the plot and action and ridiculous exposition. I mean, in 3A the writers got the part about the focus needing to be on the core characters figured out but after that it all went to sh*t after that. The writers were squirrels hopped up on crack jumping from plot point to plot point with no rhyme or reason. There's no room for the character's to breathe, no room for the characters to react to each other and deal with each other like real human beings. The characters act based on however the plot dictates and It's just Boom! monster! Boom! Portal! Boom Evil Villlain #13123123123! Boom! Forgive Woegina for Evil Thing #972361723 even though she doesn't regret it! To me all that is one of the bigger problems with this show. For my money I think it's better for the "drama" and for the characters if Emma is still in Storybrooke with them and they are face to face with Dark One Emma, which forces them to deal with each other and how this (probably) warps their relationships with Emma, and the repercussions of it all and the implications if they are unable to remove the Dark One from her.

Edited June 23, 2015 by FabulousTater

[kennyab]

Like a couple of posters above, I was thinking that maybe Emma made herself disappear, wanting to get away from everyone before hurting them. That way we don't have to worry so much about a search party, and we'll get angsty Emma who wants to sequester herself, but her family won't let her -- and they'll have the dagger, so she can't stop them from keeping her from running. I think that'd be a fair enough payoff to the cliffhanger on both plotting and emotional levels. Especially for this show.

 

I want to see crazy Emma with visions of the future. It seems like that part of Rumpel didn't get brought back when he restored magic to town. But maybe starting off in a new host will bring back that aspect.

 

I'm curious about who the first host was. That has to come up in all of this. If they stick with Arthurian legend, I guess it'll be Morgan Le Fay (most likely to me, and they'd probably try to make her story some kind of parallel of Emma's) or Mordred. If they went with the Morgan angle, perhaps the Dark One-d version of her had a magical kid, and she became a *ahem* Mother of Dragons. Bad joke aside, that could be kind of interesting, Maleficent and Lily being descendants of the original Dark One. I mean, it'd actually give them a reason for bothering to bring Lily in the first place.

 

Or they could take a swerve and try to tie in Beowulf, maybe using Grendel as the Dark One (whose mom, by the way, was a dragon). But I don't think Disney has a Beowulf, and it's probably just obscure enough to the general viewing audience to keep them from bothering.

Edited June 23, 2015 by kennyab

[daxx]

I do think regardless of where Emma ends up there should be a time jump. In fact to catch up with Jared as much as I hate it should be two years. Then no dealing with pregnant Zelena, she has a toddler. Rumple still in a magical coma, Hook integrated with the Charmings and helping to parent Henry. Maybe Henry has a better idea of his role as an author. Regina and Hood married. Then in the premiere they finally find the last piece of the puzzle and are off to #saveEmma.

[legaleagle53]

I do think regardless of where Emma ends up there should be a time jump. In fact to catch up with Jared as much as I hate it should be two years. Then no dealing with pregnant Zelena, she has a toddler. Rumple still in a magical coma, Hook integrated with the Charmings and helping to parent Henry. Maybe Henry has a better idea of his role as an author. Regina and Hood married. Then in the premiere they finally find the last piece of the puzzle and are off to #saveEmma.

 

But then you'd still have flashbacks to cover those missing two years.  It would render the time jump pretty much pointless.

[KingOfHearts]

 

But then you'd still have flashbacks to cover those missing two years.  It would render the time jump pretty much pointless.

It could work if it's a mystery of what happened in those two years. We already know the writers would fail at this concept though, since they already did with the Missing Year.

 

 

I do think regardless of where Emma ends up there should be a time jump.

There definitely should be a time jump though, even if it's just several months. It would take so much of the drama away if they immediately embarked on #SaveEmma and found her a week later.

Edited June 24, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Curio]

Maybe [Emma]'s overwhelmed by the powers of the Dark One and that's why she vanished in the first place but her last sort of show of strength was to drop the dagger knowing that she could be summoned with it?

 

I'd be cool with that. It would also be an unintentional callout to when Hook was able to break through the Dark One's power and hold on to Emma's wrist.

 

And I definitely agree about a time jump. In my ideal Season 5 scenario, Emma has disappeared from Storybrooke to a new realm, but we skip ahead a year or two in Storybrooke time to catch up with Jared's real age. Instead of the Missing Year Writing Debacle, we'd actually have proper flashbacks of the missing year(s) showing Emma's life in whatever new place she's in and her family's angst so that the angst doesn't overwhelm the current timeline 24/7. In the current timeline, Hook, the Charmings, et al happen to find a big hint in the premiere that leads them on the trail to #FindEmma. Throughout the flashbacks, we also see Emma succumbing more to the Dark One's power in whatever realm she's in because she doesn't have her loved ones there to hold her back. So by the time Emma and her family is reunited in early Season 5, she's a slightly different Emma than they're used to so the reunion is a little bittersweet. Her family would then have to work to bring her back to her old self while also dealing with this darker version of Emma.

 

I just don't like the idea of Emma caving to the darkness in Storybrooke when she has so many loved ones there to support her. I could see her caving more to its powers if she was alone in another land being influenced by Merlin or someone else with an agenda.

[daxx]

Curio, that is exactly what I want to see. Maybe I'll put that prompt out to the ff writers.

[Mari]

I also think she's still in Storybrooke.  Am I the only person who thinks that the dagger might not work on her?  

They've left themselves some wiggle room;  Emma was already very magical, and is the only (so far) known person to have become the Dark One without using the Dagger to kill the previous holder of the title.  They can easily use that to say it makes a difference.

 

Oh, don't worry. This is never going to happen. I'm pretty sure this storyline is going to start looking like it's about Emma but end up being all about Rumple. And I doubt Hook, Snow and Charming are going to have the important role many people think they are going to have in all this.

Or Regina.  If it turns out it's not actually about Rumple, it will be about Regina.  It might even be about Rumple and Regina.  With extra Regina.  :)

[YaddaYadda]

They've left themselves some wiggle room

 

Their wiggle room is the size of the Grand Canyon.  They never went into the dagger or the Dark One mythology.  Up until 2 episodes before the finale, we still thought the Dark One and the person inside were one and the same, that it was a curse and not a separate entity completely that basically lived inside of someone waiting to take complete control over the body. 

 

Merlin looks extra stupid for creating the hat that can separate the Dark One from the dagger since he created the dagger to control this thing he couldn't even manage to defeat in the first place.  I'm almost scared that this is the guy who is supposed to help Emma.

 

Beyond that, I'm very convinced that there will be a sleeping curse in there somewhere.  Can the Dark One fight the sleeping curse?

[KAOS Agent]

I was thinking that maybe Emma made herself disappear, wanting to get away from everyone before hurting them. That way we don't have to worry so much about a search party, and we'll get angsty Emma who wants to sequester herself, but her family won't let her -- and they'll have the dagger, so she can't stop them from keeping her from running.

 

This would piss me off to no end. If Emma has run away to protect everyone and they use the dagger to force her to stay against her will? Ick. Inevitably that would also result in Emma hurting someone which just makes it all the worse. It's also a retread of 4A where she told everyone to stay away and David and Henry both got hurt because no one listened to her. Since it wouldn't work for the show, it won't happen, but the best thing for Emma to do is leave town where the Dark One's magic does not work and where she would also not be under the control of the dagger (it didn't work when August tried to use it in "The Return"). Incidentally, Rumpel told "Bae" to destroy the dagger in that episode because he didn't need it anymore, which just goes to show that this Realm Destroying Darkness mythology is a completely new concept that the writers drew up in Season 4. 

Edited June 24, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[RadioGirl27]

I do think regardless of where Emma ends up there should be a time jump. In fact to catch up with Jared as much as I hate it should be two years. Then no dealing with pregnant Zelena, she has a toddler. Rumple still in a magical coma, Hook integrated with the Charmings and helping to parent Henry. Maybe Henry has a better idea of his role as an author. Regina and Hood married. Then in the premiere they finally find the last piece of the puzzle and are off to #saveEmma.

I know the time jump is necessary, but I don't want it. Two years of Emma dwelling in darkness and Hook dwelling in self-loath and alcohol? No thanks.

But, anyway, I doubt Zelena's pregnacy and Regina's wedding are going to happen off screen.

Edited June 24, 2015 by RadioGirl27

[YaddaYadda]

The thing is that Emma has seen Rumple operate.  He was the Dark One or had the Dark One inside of him and he did some heroic things and tried to change.  I mean that whole exchange in 408 (which I thought was one of the highlights of a lackluster season) said that the Dark One isn't really all that in control, that Rumple still had free will.  So Emma making herself disappear to not hurt people makes no sense.  Has anyone ever taken on the Dark One without killing the person that was playing host to it before?  

 

Emma is completely different from Rumple because she is a magical being and her personality is polar opposite of his.  Her sacrifice in 4B sort of parallels his in 3A (though what he did was more for Belle and Neal and I'm assuming Henry than the town).

 

If someone was to come at Emma and stab her with the dagger so that they can become the new Dark One, would she die like Zoso did?  Would the magic she has inside of her actually save her?  Is Emma the first person with magic to become the Dark One?

 

Maybe she projected herself outside of the town line.  It's not like they can't find her a cabin to live in and can't visit her every day while she stays there and they try to figure out how to fix this mess.  They have Ingrid's scroll, they can just cross in and out of town anytime they want.  

 

I'm sure the writers will complicate this so much....because they can't help themselves.

 

ETA - From the Storybrooke Daily Mirror

 

I had also asked whether or not the Camelot part would mirror how the Frozen flashback sections were incorporated into the story, because I know some people thought that it lead to too much Frozen. So I guess we'll see which questions she chooses to ask.

 

I've been wondering about this.  I think the folks from Camelot are likely in Storybrooke.  But I've been wondering if they know the characters like David, Snow, Hook since I'm sure they know Rumple because everyone knows Rumple and they sort of set up Rumple with Camelot with that stupid gauntlet.  I think they said in show that Rumple had never met Merlin.

 

It's interesting that Camelot has been part of the show's mythology since season 1 with Lancelot and how he's the one who officiated Snowing's original wedding.  Considering everything, Lancelot has been sort of huge in Snowing's lives and so has Camelot with the whole Sword in the Stone and Snow.

 

I hope the flashbacks they do aren't like the ones we got with Frozen because they led absolutely nowhere.  Anna had 30 seconds with David even though she apparently had a huge impact in his life.  And he and Kristoff were friends and barely shared a scene.  Anna didn't even bump into Belle and roll her eyes at her for marrying Rumple an she did not bump into Rumple which made absolutely no sense.

 

If they build flashbacks with whoever they're bringing in for the Camelot side of the story and they know the regulars, then I hope the plot points will actually lead somewhere.  Anything else is a waste of time.

Edited June 24, 2015 by YaddaYadda

[Curio]

Curio, that is exactly what I want to see. Maybe I'll put that prompt out to the ff writers.

 

If someone writes the fic for it, PM me so I can add it to my summer reading list. ;)

 

I think the folks from Camelot are likely in Storybrooke.

 

Whatever the show decides to do with Camelot, I just hope there aren't any major Camelot players living in Storybrooke. We've been there, done that, and wore that t-shirt with all the convenient characters who "just happened" to be living in Storybrooke. The Snow Queen "just happened" to be living in Storybrooke and no one noticed. Zelena "just happened" to be a midwife and no one cared to look into it. The Apprentice "just happened" to be living in a quaint house all this time. It would seem like a cop-out if Merlin or any Camelot characters were chilling in Storybrooke and no one knew. Storybrooke isn't small, but it also isn't that big where people can go unnoticed for years.

Edited June 24, 2015 by Curio

[KingOfHearts]

 

I could see her caving more to its powers if she was alone in another land being influenced by Merlin or someone else with an agenda.

I'm wondering if the power is so overwhelming to Emma that she sort of just goes crazy and can't control it. (Although that would be a repeat of 4x22 and 4x08.) Then someone with an agenda offers to help her, like you said. Being of True Love and darkness to bring a lot of double-mindedness.

 

 

We've been there, done that, and wore that t-shirt with all the convenient characters who "just happened" to be living in Storybrooke

I really wish Glinda had lived in Storybrooke for some reason. She probably would have been more useful there than in the snow zone Ingrid probably did the interior decorating for. Any Oz character would have made me slightly happier, really.

Edited June 24, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[YaddaYadda]

Whatever the show decides to do with Camelot, I just hope there aren't any major Camelot players living in Storybrooke. We've been there, done that, and wore that t-shirt with all the convenient characters who "just happened" to be living in Storybrooke. The Snow Queen "just happened" to be living in Storybrooke and no one noticed. Zelena "just happened" to be a midwife and no one cared to look into it. The Apprentice "just happened" to be living in a quaint house all this time. It would seem like a cop-out if Merlin or any Camelot characters were chilling in Storybrooke and no one knew. Storybrooke isn't small, but it also isn't that big where people can go unnoticed for years.

 

I get it.  But these people don't know each other.  With the Snow Queen, they filmed a scene with her and Regina that hit the editing floor (not sure why since they seem to keep a lot of nonsense and bullshit).  Rumple clearly knew the Apprentice lived in SB though he didn't seem to know where and wasn't interested in seeing him until it was convenient.

 

Aurora, Robin and the Merry Men arrived in Storybrooke along with the second curse.  I think the Zelena thing was ridiculous in that they completely trusted her.  They didn't ask her questions and were very unconcerned by how little they knew about her.  It's like they decided to trust her because she was from the EF and that was good enough for them.  I never really understood whether Snow was planning to give birth at home or at the hospital and the questions she had could have easily been answered by Dr. Whale or freakin' Doc who was the one who assisted Snow when she gave birth to Emma.  Zelena as a nanny to help out with the baby would have been better than her being a midwife.  So the stupidity of the Zelena thing, I completely agree.

 

Remember how they had those census records in 4x04 of everyone that was brought over by the curse and how they realized the Snow Queen hadn't come with either curses because her name wasn't in there?  They had records for both curses.

 

And Merlin can cross realms at will and he's in Far Far Away chilling with Shrek and Fiona.

[LizaD]

 

I want to see crazy Emma with visions of the future. It seems like that part of Rumpel didn't get brought back when he restored magic to town. But maybe starting off in a new host will bring back that aspect.

 

That power wasn't part of the Dark One's power. It was a Rump acquired power from the seer he killed.

 

 

 

Maybe she projected herself outside of the town line.  It's not like they can't find her a cabin to live in and can't visit her every day while she stays there and they try to figure out how to fix this mess.  They have Ingrid's scroll, they can just cross in and out of town anytime they want.

 

But Rump was still shady even when he was outside the town. He just didn't have the magic powers to go along with the shadiness. The dark goo entity never left him. Emma does have magic outside Storybrooke and she'd still be dark so that's more dangerous than Rump.

 

 

Their wiggle room is the size of the Grand Canyon.  They never went into the dagger or the Dark One mythology.

Yeah they can basically do or say anything at this point. Not that prior established rules have ever stopped them from doing whatever they want to before either. I'm positive that dagger won't work on Emma. It'd be a non-starter of a story if it did. Merlin allegedly tethered the DO to some other schlub and created the dagger so that he could control it. But Emma tethered DO to herself so that could negate the dagger. But this begs the question, how in the hell did the all powerful Merlin lose the dagger in the first place? He's either really really stupid or the big baddie himself.

[Shanna Marie]

Merlin looks extra stupid for creating the hat that can separate the Dark One from the dagger since he created the dagger to control this thing he couldn't even manage to defeat in the first place.  I'm almost scared that this is the guy who is supposed to help Emma.

I haven't rewatched this season's finale obsessively like I did last season's (gee, I wonder why), so I'm fuzzy on what the Apprentice actually said about the hat, but did he actually say Merlin created the hat? And was it meant to separate the Dark One from the dagger, or was that an off-label use that wasn't intended in the first place? I still haven't figured out what the purpose of the hat was -- was it meant as a magical prison? Was it invented before the Dark One dagger solution, with the hope it could hold the Dark One in prison, except it didn't work, and oopsie, it turns out that with the right set of very specific ingredients, the Dark One might be able to use it to separate him/herself from the dagger? I get the feeling that the writers didn't really think through the hat mythology. They just wanted to use the iconic imagery.

 

Rumple clearly knew the Apprentice lived in SB though he didn't seem to know where and wasn't interested in seeing him until it was convenient.

 

I don't think he had a reason to see the Apprentice until he found the hat, which apparently wasn't there during the first curse.

 

If the network suddenly fired A&E and turned to me saying, "Help us, Shanna, you're our only hope" and I had to write this season's arc, and if I wasn't allowed to just have Hook give Emma a TLK and get rid of the Dark One in the first five minutes and move on to another story line, there are two main ways I might take it. One option has Emma not truly dark, just struggling and tempted, and still in town. She's mostly still the Emma we know (Gold's not that different from pre-Dark One Rumple, other than having more confidence), but it's easier for her to slip, and the power is very tempting, except she realizes early on that the more she uses the power, the greater a hold it has on her -- and then some other Big Bad appears and she has to decide whether to take the risk to use her power against the Big Bad, even though it may send her down a really bad path. And meanwhile, they're trying to find Merlin, and it becomes a race against time -- find Merlin and find a way to get the Dark One out of Emma without it being a threat to the whole world before it totally takes her over.

 

The other option is a slight time jump, maybe a few weeks. Emma is elsewhere -- maybe Camelot, maybe Rumple's castle (the Dark One might want to head home) -- and it's a Jekyll and Hyde situation where when the Dark One is in control, she's not Emma at all, but Emma's still in there and fighting. In the season premiere, the gang finds a key clue for getting to Merlin, but they have to find Emma and get her there first. They find her, only to find that she's not Emma and the Dark One has no interest in seeing Merlin. They need a new plan to either help Emma get the upper hand or somehow neutralize the Dark One. Meanwhile, back in Storybrooke, Regina, Robin and Zelena do stuff we can fast forward through (since I probably wouldn't be allowed to have a sinkhole swallow them).

 

For some reason, the idea of Emma being full-on Dark One in Storybrooke bugs me. If she's going to actually be a villain, I want it to be elsewhere. Maybe I want to create some separation between Emma and Dark One, and if Regina gets the Regina vs. Evil Queen, what happens in the Enchanted Forest stays in the Enchanted Forest treatment, I want Emma to get the same. I'd rather not have a full-scale fairy tale villain in Storybrooke.

[KingOfHearts]

I'm wondering if Rumple intended on putting the Dark One inside the hat, then drawing the Dark One powers from it instead of the dagger. So the hat wasn't breaking its programming per se, but I still don't know the purpose of it. I thought it was a place to put dark beings (like the Chernabog or the Dark One), but then there's the fact that you can draw power from it. 

From the dialog of 5x22, the Dark One seems to be Merlin's own darkness.

Edited June 25, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Mari]

From the dialog of 5x22, the Dark One seems to be Merlin's own darkness.

Did you get the impression just the original darkness, or the darkness that's been added to it in the hundreds of years it's been floating around being the Dark One?

 

(And, won't it be interesting to see how they resolve this timeline issue?)

[LizaD]

 

One option has Emma not truly dark, just struggling and tempted, and still in town. She's mostly still the Emma we know

 

But I think this defeats the purpose of making Emma the DO.  And if I were the actress I'd call foul if my character got crowned DO and didn't get to do anything different. We saw that "Emma struggling" version of it already in 4B and it wasn't the least bit entertaining. Now I'm not saying all out evil Emma is guaranteed to be fun viewing either but I rather see Evil Emma at least having fun onscreen than walk around with that constant gloom and doom face of hers. She's had it for like 4 seasons. The thought of Emma smiling and not giving a single fuck is all I want from these clowns and about the best you could hope for. Kind of like what Snow got to do in Heart of Darkness or 4x22.

 

 

Dark One seems to be Merlin's own darkness.

 

That's where my mind went when I saw the scene. Since this show seems to be obsessed with fate and prophesies, I'm also thinking Emma got stuck in yet another prophesy involving the DO stuff and Merlin knows this and has been manipulating events to end up at this point ala Rump in S1. And if it's not Merlin it's someone else. I know we got a fake "Sword in the Stone" moment with Snow and Charming already but I can see their so-called original take being that the dagger is the real "Sword in the Stone."

[KingOfHearts]

 

Did you get the impression just the original darkness, or the darkness that's been added to it in the hundreds of years it's been floating around being the Dark One?

I'm thinking it's both. The darkness was always there, but it was Rumple's bad deeds that allowed it to corrupt his heart. The more he did the less control he had over it, and it eventually consumed him.

 

 

but I can see their so-called original take being that the dagger is the real "Sword in the Stone."

Wouldn't it be weird if it really was Excalibur? Rumple's "if that were Excalibur, I wouldn't be able to do this" would make sense if that were the case.

[Shanna Marie]

But I think this defeats the purpose of making Emma the DO.  And if I were the actress I'd call foul if my character got crowned DO and didn't get to do anything different.

That's why this is my less-favorite option. If they're going to do it, then go for it and not just give us PMS!Emma struggling with darkness. But I think to make that work, she needs to be somewhere other than Storybrooke because so far, Storybrooke Rumple has been basically mild-mannered and not obviously evil. Even when doing evil things, he doesn't seem all that evil, like when he was so gentle while talking Emma into basically killing herself so he could have her power. To really get Dark One Emma, we need to have her elsewhere. And I'd prefer it to be a Jekyll/Hyde, taken over by a villain thing rather than Emma herself being villainous -- again, even Rumple as Sparkle Dark was capable of love and humanity. It seemed more like it just amplified his natural negative tendencies. He was a coward, but when he got power he became a bully (since bullies are often cowards who have power).

 

From the dialog of 5x22, the Dark One seems to be Merlin's own darkness.

I guess I need to rewatch the episode (if it's still up OnDemand) because that wasn't the impression I got. I thought it sounded like there was some free-floating Darkness entity that Merlin couldn't destroy or control, and the best option was to capture it in a person who could be controlled via the dagger. I'm not sure where the hat came in -- was it plan A and it didn't work? Is it entirely unrelated but only came into the Dark One picture because Dark Ones crave power and someone figured out that it might be used for them to keep their power while not being controlled by the dagger? I like the idea someone suggested earlier that Morgana was the initial volunteer Darkness vessel. There would be some parallels then with Emma, with her already being someone with power who made the sacrifice for the greater good and with faith that she could put herself in the hands of those who cared about her. Except obviously something went horribly wrong, since there were other Dark Ones after that who were threats.

[Souris]

I guess I need to rewatch the episode (if it's still up OnDemand) because that wasn't the impression I got. I thought it sounded like there was some free-floating Darkness entity that Merlin couldn't destroy or control, and the best option was to capture it in a person who could be controlled via the dagger. I'm not sure where the hat came in -- was it plan A and it didn't work? Is it entirely unrelated but only came into the Dark One picture because Dark Ones crave power and someone figured out that it might be used for them to keep their power while not being controlled by the dagger? I like the idea someone suggested earlier that Morgana was the initial volunteer Darkness vessel. There would be some parallels then with Emma, with her already being someone with power who made the sacrifice for the greater good and with faith that she could put herself in the hands of those who cared about her. Except obviously something went horribly wrong, since there were other Dark Ones after that who were threats.

 

I got the same impression about the Dark One vs. Merlin as you.

 

Given that they've had a casting call for Arthur & Guinevere, I'm more apt to think the initial volunteer would be one of them. Maybe they'll blame Gwen's adultery with Lancelot on the Dark One mojo. Perhaps because of that, Arthur abandons trying to free her. Or Arthur takes it on, Guinevere can't handle his darkness afterward and seeks comfort in Lancelot's arms. That would explain the rather traditionally un-Arthur descriptions in the casting call.

 

The more I think about it, the more I can see them having one of their beloved parallels, with Emma as Arthur, Hook as Guinevere and Lily as Lancelot. Since Lily has part of Emma in her, they may have Hook drawn to her. Only this time I would HOPE they'd play it out differently, with Hook staying true to Emma as Guinevere didn't to Arthur. And this would be dependent on them bringing back Sinqua Walls, which I would definitely NOT be averse to.

Edited June 26, 2015 by Souris

[KAOS Agent]

Lancelot was a contemporary of Snow White, so I don't see how he could be involved in the Darkness containment issue. At that point, Rumpel had been the Dark One for centuries. Presumably, his story for why he left Camelot was tied in with Arthur and Guinevere. So if they do go for Camelot, they might parallel the Camelot romantic failings with the Robin/Regina/Zelena saga more than the Dark One stuff with Merlin because it doesn't fit the timeline at all for those Camelot characters to have anything to do with the Darkness plot. 

Also, the Guinevere casting call wanted a latina woman, a "headstrong queen" who struggles with balancing her happiness with the good of Camelot.

 

Edited June 26, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[Souris]

Lancelot was a contemporary of Snow White, so I don't see how he could be involved in the Darkness containment issue. At that point, Rumpel had been the Dark One for centuries. 

 

There's always the legend of Arthur asleep until Britain needs him. They could throw Gwen & Lancelot in there, too.

 

But your idea could just as easily happen. The way this show rolls, they'd totally say the season is about Emma but really make it about Regina and parallel her with the main guest stars, who are from one of THE most iconic legends of all time. And put Regina in the role of ultimate hero King Arthur.

[Camera One]

SCENE: Castle in the highlands

 

ARTHUR: You can't leave.  It's too dangerous out there.

 

GUINEVIERE: You can't control my life.  

 

GUARD runs in panicked: *She* is here.

 

ARTHUR and GUINEVIERE look out the window and see a hooded figure, face not visible.

 

GUINEVIERE: What should we do!

 

FEMALE VOICE: My, my, my.  What *should* you do?  You know better than to hide from me.

 

Camera reveals DARK EMMA.

 

TITLE CARD: 6 weeks later.  Storybrooke.

 

SNOW: Where can Emma be?

 

HOOK: The last thing we saw when she disappeared was a plume of smoke.

 

REGINA: And the only thing left was this dagger.

 

CHARMING: Thanks for the recap.

 

BELLE knocks on the door:  Rumple is waking up.  Finally, we will know something which will propel the plot forward!

 

-------------------

 

Then Emma would suddenly appear with no memory of where she had been, or what she had done.  We would find out in future flashbacks that she was sent back after Arthur and/or Guinevieve and/or Merlin extracted enough darkness out of her for *some* Emma to re-emerge.

Edited June 26, 2015 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

Is anyone else getting vibes that the Dark One is the MiB and Merlin is Jacob?

[Camera One]

Is anyone else getting vibes that the Dark One is the MiB and Merlin is Jacob?

Yes, complete with Dark One being Smoke-Monster like.  Kill me if there's a cave of light too.

[LizaD]

I don't remember the exact lines but I thought it went something like Merlin was fighting the darkness and it was about to destroy the entire universe and the only thing he could do was tether it to a human soul. Maybe that's a hint that Merlin isn't human and lacks a soul? But then the Apprentice goes, find Merlin cause he's the only one that can destroy it. So in the centuries while Rump was wreaking havoc as the DO, Merlin finally found a way to destroy it cause he couldn't before. And if the Apprentice knew all this, that only Merlin could tether it to a human soul or destroy it, why did he think the hat had a chance to contain it?

And if he could destroy it why hasn't he gone after it? Why does the current hapless crew need to go after his butt when he's the most powerful being introduced so far? He can create portals to LWM, see the future, create that hat that sucks up everything magical but his apprentice needed to make a deal with Ingrid? They could've just ripped the hat out of her hands. Also if he's all powerful enough to be able to destroy the DO, why did he lose the dagger in the first place and let it go to some random person repeatedly? It doesn't make a lick of sense unless it's gone exactly the way he wants it to go. Of course this show thrives on not making sense so I guess Merlin could be the most powerful AND utterly useless and stupid.

As for the original recipe DO, I'll take my guess to the spoiler thread.

[Camera One]

Don't forget, why did he create the dumb Author job, giving him a pen that has the power to change the story and to make his own Apprentice do stuff against his will.  

 

Any way you spin it, the whole Merlin backstory is already half ruined with the horrible Hat / Author so-called "world-building" they did in S4.

 

I'm guessing Merlin himself unleashed the darkness accidentally, and then he didn't know how to contain it, so he tethered it to a soul.  

Edited June 26, 2015 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

This is all the Apprentice said about the Darkness:

 

"Long before your stories began, the Sorcerer battled the Darkness. He was able to keep it from consuming the realms. He tethered it to a human soul that could be controlled with a dagger. The Sorcerer is the only one with the power to destroy the darkness once and for all before it destroys everything."

 

So basically, if Merlin does know how to defeat the Darkness, he's a giant ass for making Rumpel/Zoso/Emma suffer as the Dark One in addition to allowing the Dark One to torture/murder/screw over countless people rather than destroying the Darkness once and for all. Merlin sucks.  It will probably work out that he needed the Saviour to become the Dark One for whatever asspull the writers are going to come up with to solve this problem. At some point, Emma will most likely "die" as part of the destruction of the Dark One.

 

On a totally separate front, I expect Regina & Robin to get married in Season 5.  

[RadioGirl27]

IThe more I think about it, the more I can see them having one of their beloved parallels, with Emma as Arthur, Hook as Guinevere and Lily as Lancelot. Since Lily has part of Emma in her, they may have Hook drawn to her. 

This would be the same as to throw all of Hook's characterization from the last three seasons through the window for the sake of ANGST!!!