One is the Loneliest Number: Unpopular GG Opinions

[Kohola3]

20 minutes ago, timimouse said:

I actually blame that whole thing on Rory because Lorelai was going to tell him and she butted in.

Absolutely!  She should have kept her trap shut.  But then we wouldn't have had the endless, multiple season Christopher drama.

[Katy M]

32 minutes ago, timimouse said:

I actually blame that whole thing on Rory because Lorelai was going to tell him and she butted in. It would've looked suspicious if she tried to change the story after that.

Not really.  "I kept her up all night."  "No, that's not what happened."  See how easy that was.  Yes, Rory shouldn't have lied, but Lorelei is responsible for her own decisions and her own relationships.

[Guest]

47 minutes ago, timimouse said:

I think that's why it became a big deal... because she hid it. When she was in the dinner the next morning, nursing her hangover, there was absolutely no need for Rory to jump in with the lie. She could've said, then and there, that Chris' dad died and she went over there last night with a bottle of tequila, that they finished. By unnecessarily hiding it, you plant that seed of doubt when you hurriedly tell him at your parents vow renewal ceremony. I actually blame that whole thing on Rory because Lorelai was going to tell him and she butted in. It would've looked suspicious if she tried to change the story after that.

Yes, this. Hiding it made it into a big deal- same as the phone message.

[Melancholy]

I don't blame the lying on Rory. I saw no indication Lorelai intended on telling Luke the truth. She started by claiming a bad night sleep, which is already on a disingenuous track. Then when Luke asked her why she had a bad night sleep, she was all "Weeelll.." Then, Rory lied for Lorelai who then eagerly participated in the deception. None of that proves Lorelai had honest intentions at first. In fact, I think the quickness that Lorelai takes to lying and actively doing stupid deceptive (can't order pancakes because it's hangover food!) makes me think Lorelai was inclined to lie and the Famous Gilmore Girl mindmeld took over when Rory rescued Lorelai from coming up with a story on the spot. 

[andromeda331]

5 hours ago, timimouse said:

I think that's why it became a big deal... because she hid it. When she was in the dinner the next morning, nursing her hangover, there was absolutely no need for Rory to jump in with the lie. She could've said, then and there, that Chris' dad died and she went over there last night with a bottle of tequila, that they finished. By unnecessarily hiding it, you plant that seed of doubt when you hurriedly tell him at your parents vow renewal ceremony. I actually blame that whole thing on Rory because Lorelai was going to tell him and she butted in. It would've looked suspicious if she tried to change the story after that.

Yeah, it became a big deal because she lied and only told him because Christopher showed up at the vow renewal. That makes it look like something happened. But there was still no need for the lie. It was stupid for Rory to butt in and lie that they were up all night long. It was stupid for Lorelai to go along with it and not say "Well, that's not what happened when we were at Friday night dinner we learned Christopher's dad died so afterwards we went to check on him." I know the lie was for "drama" and that's the same reason why Luke didn't tell Lorelai about some girl coming into his diner and grabbing his hair for DNA test. When the normal reaction would be to tell your girlfriend. 'You wouldn't believe what happened in the diner today!'

 There was plenty of other ways for drama to come up between Luke and Lorelai without making Lorelai look stupid for lying about drinking tequila and cheering up Christopher after his dad died or Luke look like a jerk for not telling Lorelai about April. One's very outgoing, and one's a hermit, both have lots of issues and this is the first relationship both are really trying and really want to work and don't want to mess up.

[Katy M]

17 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

I know the lie was for "drama" and that's the same reason why Luke didn't tell Lorelai about some girl coming into his diner and grabbing his hair for DNA test. When the normal reaction would be to tell your girlfriend. 'You wouldn't believe what happened in the diner today!'

I'm not sure about that one.  I think I would wait to find out what happened with the hair first.

[junienmomo]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

I'm not sure about that one.  I think I would wait to find out what happened with the hair first.

I'm firmly convinced that a non-body-snatched Luke would have wanted to tell Lorelai that story. 

What annoys me is the number of times either person can be observed not saying something that would be small talk in an adult relationship. They had years of talking and getting to know each other and being very good friends. Now once they're in a relationship they don't talk anymore? Lazy writing.

[Kohola3]

30 minutes ago, junienmomo said:

Now once they're in a relationship they don't talk anymore? Lazy writing.

They were best of friends....wouldn't you have told your best friend the whole hair pulling story?  I know I would have.

[Katy M]

27 minutes ago, Kohola3 said:

They were best of friends....wouldn't you have told your best friend the whole hair pulling story?  I know I would have.

If someone just came in and yanked a hair out for no reason, then yes.  If I had the whole explanation on how she might be my kid, probably not until I knew if she was my kid or not. 

I mean, yes, I totally agree on their lack of communication in general.  But, the fact that you might have a kid is kind of huge and not something I would want to deal with other people about until I found out one way or the other.  I think she pretty much just ran out after she pulled his hair out, IIRC. So, hopefully, I wouldn't have so long a list of people that the mother could be that I wouldn't know who to call immediately and ask how long that test was going to take, and ask why she never told me.  Yeah, seriously, the mother is who I would want to be dealing with first.  As soon as I got some confirmation of how big the possibility of my being the father (which in my case would be none obviously), then I would talk to Lorelei about it.

[timimouse]

11 hours ago, Katy M said:

Not really.  "I kept her up all night."  "No, that's not what happened."  See how easy that was.  Yes, Rory shouldn't have lied, but Lorelei is responsible for her own decisions and her own relationships.

I see what you mean but on the flip side, Luke would then wonder why did Rory lie. And knowing how close they are, he'd probably think that she was trying to hide something for Lorelai, which wouldn't be good for either the Lorelai-Luke relationship or the Luke-Rory relationship.

5 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

Yeah, it became a big deal because she lied and only told him because Christopher showed up at the vow renewal. That makes it look like something happened. But there was still no need for the lie. It was stupid for Rory to butt in and lie that they were up all night long. It was stupid for Lorelai to go along with it and not say "Well, that's not what happened when we were at Friday night dinner we learned Christopher's dad died so afterwards we went to check on him." I know the lie was for "drama" and that's the same reason why Luke didn't tell Lorelai about some girl coming into his diner and grabbing his hair for DNA test. When the normal reaction would be to tell your girlfriend. 'You wouldn't believe what happened in the diner today!'

 There was plenty of other ways for drama to come up between Luke and Lorelai without making Lorelai look stupid for lying about drinking tequila and cheering up Christopher after his dad died or Luke look like a jerk for not telling Lorelai about April. One's very outgoing, and one's a hermit, both have lots of issues and this is the first relationship both are really trying and really want to work and don't want to mess up.

I actually agree with you so now I'm gonna ask for you to explain what you meant in your earlier post when you said you didn't think it was a big deal?

2 hours ago, Katy M said:

If someone just came in and yanked a hair out for no reason, then yes.  If I had the whole explanation on how she might be my kid, probably not until I knew if she was my kid or not. 

I mean, yes, I totally agree on their lack of communication in general.  But, the fact that you might have a kid is kind of huge and not something I would want to deal with other people about until I found out one way or the other.  I think she pretty much just ran out after she pulled his hair out, IIRC. So, hopefully, I wouldn't have so long a list of people that the mother could be that I wouldn't know who to call immediately and ask how long that test was going to take, and ask why she never told me.  Yeah, seriously, the mother is who I would want to be dealing with first.  As soon as I got some confirmation of how big the possibility of my being the father (which in my case would be none obviously), then I would talk to Lorelei about it.

I often wonder why did Luke wait until the science fair to contact Anna and why didn't he get a second test done by a lab?!?! As smart as April is... wouldn't you want something a little more concrete?

[Kohola3]

24 minutes ago, timimouse said:

As smart as April is... wouldn't you want something a little more concrete?

That whole premise was absolutely ridiculous.  Supposedly her uncle let her do it in a lab but who knows what equipment he had.  Another case of suspending disbelief to the max.

[JayInChicago]

I said this a year or more ago but Luke and lorelai's relationship reminds me of any number of marriages I witnessed growing up, and maybe that's why I don't think it's remarkable. Lauren does play her as scared of him a little. He is very bad at communication but then so is lorelai in a different way. She does have instincts to lie to him.

 

They both were right at the vow renewal--his instinct to leave was completely understandable based on Emily's behavior by itself. Perhaps Lorelai should have left with him once she realized what was going on? Like, suddenly she actually cares what her parents think of her? Then again, she was also blindsided by the Emily and chris collusion so her reaction makes a lot of sense too.  She is interested in chris in some way, throughout the first 6.5 seasons. It's understandably threatening to Luke. Then again, her attraction to Chris is also kind of understandable. She just couldn't quit him though.

[Melancholy]

I don't blame Lorelai for not shutting down Christopher harshly enough or for going to take the picture even though I've seen some of my compatriot Luke fans do that. And I see their point because Lorelai just doesn't stand up for Luke in her parent's world for all her ostentatious brassy remarks that defend and help no one but just draw attention to herself.  But after Christopher's tirade and the Rory drama, She was shell-shocked and confused with all of the drama around her. I blame Lorelai for Tequila Night and lying about it and how she behaved at Dozys. And to a lesser extent, her annoying "I don't want to shanghai you" as she was doing just that and her whole, "Yo fellas, check out my dress!"

I agree that she always had a thing for Christopher and saw him as a main or THE main contender for The One. That's why I don't think Lorelai lying about Tequila Night was bad writing. I think Lorelai constantly flirts with Christopher, no matter who she's with, and does this weird tap dance on the line of infidelity without crossing the line because she always regards Christopher as The One. She came to regard Luke as another main contender for The One too (as she cries in Say Something) but she wanted to preserve both options. The stupid lying is a feature, not a bug in this story. Plus, even aside from Christopher himself, I think OS Lorelai is addicted to romantic drama. Sexy to date her daughters teacher when she's in his class- but not to just settle down with him. Impetus to date Jason was to piss off Emily and then, the suspense of secretly dating him under her parents' nose but then she was uninterested in committing to him.

I also agree that Luke/Lorelai reminds me of a number of married couples, including my parents. But not the Christopher love triangle stuff. 

Edited April 20, 2017 by Melancholy

[andromeda331]

On ‎4‎/‎19‎/‎2017 at 6:07 PM, timimouse said:

I see what you mean but on the flip side, Luke would then wonder why did Rory lie. And knowing how close they are, he'd probably think that she was trying to hide something for Lorelai, which wouldn't be good for either the Lorelai-Luke relationship or the Luke-Rory relationship.

I actually agree with you so now I'm gonna ask for you to explain what you meant in your earlier post when you said you didn't think it was a big deal?

I often wonder why did Luke wait until the science fair to contact Anna and why didn't he get a second test done by a lab?!?! As smart as April is... wouldn't you want something a little more concrete?

I couldn't figure out why Rory and Lorelai lied in the first place when all that happened was Lorelai went over to cheer Christopher up after learning his dad died.  There was no reason to lie about that. 

[junienmomo]

On 4/19/2017 at 10:55 PM, Kohola3 said:

They were best of friends....wouldn't you have told your best friend the whole hair pulling story?  I know I would have.

 Not just best friends, but also engaged! It's absolutely out of character for that to happen. Same thing for Lorelai to cut off Rory in the first half of season six. That's why the whole season is dead to me.

On 4/19/2017 at 9:15 AM, CheeseBurgh said:

I h a t e d the sobbing break up phone message she left Luke.

The Way we Were is one of my favorite movies and that was stolen directly from it.  It was lazy, poorly written and was a ridiculous  overreaction by Lorelai.  

ASP forced that in the script; Luke is no Hubble!

 Agreed. When I think of the revival and the huge Wizard of Oz connection, it makes me wonder how many other times the writers practically lifted whole plots from other stories. 

[shron17]

5 hours ago, junienmomo said:

Not just best friends, but also engaged! It's absolutely out of character for that to happen.

I don't know.  There's huge difference between being friends and dating/being engaged especially for two people who are completely convinced they're bad at long-term romantic relationships.  I think that helps explain a lot of their actions that seem out of character.

Edited April 21, 2017 by shron17

[FictionLover]

11 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I couldn't figure out why Rory and Lorelai lied in the first place when all that happened was Lorelai went over to cheer Christopher up after learning his dad died.  There was no reason to lie about that. 

And it wasn't Christopher's home, he was staying at his mother's house! No one ever mentions that.

[Kohola3]

5 hours ago, shron17 said:

There's huge difference between being friends and dating/being engaged especially for two people who are completely convinced they're bad at long-term romantic relationships.

Except that Luke and Lorelai had been friends since Rory was a kid.  I know that Madly In Love, Engaged After a Few Months couples often don't know each other well at all.  They get carried away with the idea of lurvvvv but don't know squat about each other.  L and L knew an awful lot about each other and their histories (well, except Luke's Dark Day) and were supportive in the ways of good friends.  Like Luke closing the diner to haul Lorelai to the hospital when her dad had a heart attack and Lorelai running the diner when Uncle Louie bought the farm.

[shron17]

22 minutes ago, Kohola3 said:

L and L knew an awful lot about each other and their histories (well, except Luke's Dark Day) and were supportive in the ways of good friends.

But since most people act differently with friends and romantic partners, how long and how well they already know each other really has limited value.  Besides, finding out you could have a daughter you didn't know about is big enough to make anyone's behavior less predictable.  I didn't have a problem with Luke not spilling about the hair pulling immediately because April told him he was one of three candidates.  Why tell your fiancee right away when there's only 33% chance that it was him?  Luke didn't even know who her mother was until he saw her last name at the science fair.

[hippielamb]

On 4/19/2017 at 3:15 AM, CheeseBurgh said:

I h a t e d the sobbing break up phone message she left Luke.

The Way we Were is one of my favorite movies and that was stolen directly from it.  It was lazy, poorly written and was a ridiculous  overreaction by Lorelai.  

ASP forced that in the script; Luke is no Hubble!

Lol that bothered me too! I know we were supposed to be invested in the breakup and whatnot but the Luke is Hubble comparison just felt so wrong. It made me wonder how familiar with the character of Hubble they were to make that ridiculous comparison. Lauren killed it in the crying scene. But Luke is no Hubbell. Nope, still not over it. 

Sex and the City did a Hubble reference to one of the characters and while it's not a perfect fit, it makes more sense than the GG reference. 

[Melancholy]

Interesting. I agree that Luke is absolutely NOT a Hubble. But I didn't get irritated with Lorelai's The Way We Were rant because I never felt Lorelai was equating the personalities or the romance. She ultimately concluded that she similarly felt like she lost her best friend. A highly emotional, distraught Lorelai was reaching for a best friend to both dramatize and put in perspective the sadness, and aloneness that she felt. Probably there was a better example but it was reasonable, emotional lurch to compare how Katie felt like she sunk her entire life and tried making a totally new personality for this romance and her feelings of devastation when it ended. I always thought the call was more OTT and inapplicable of Lorelai defensively arguing that like Katie, Lorelai did EVERYTHING, for this romance and she put herself ALL IN at Dozys, so it was similarly devastating that Luke broke up with her. Lorelai was reacting to the humiliation that she felt at putting herself all in Dozys and begging for the relationship back, but Luke breaking up with her. Now, that's not a fair comparison but it still worked for me because I agree that was Lorelai's headspace.

The Sex and the City comparison was a little more annoying to me. I certainly agree that Big is more a Hubble, or he certainly fills a Hubble-type role in the story. However, Carrie's insistence that she and Kate are both the SAME, avatars of complexity, feminism, intellectualism, and serious awesomeness was aggressively self-serving. I mean, so was Lorelai's delusion that she sunk everything into the relationship ala Katie. But Lorelai was reaching more for a commonality in emotion which I do believe she and Katie shared while Carrie was reaching more for a cinematic judgment that she's the heroine of this story. 

Edited April 23, 2017 by Melancholy

[Kohola3]

Quote

She ultimately concluded that she similarly felt like she lost her best friend. A highly emotional, distraught Lorelai was reaching for a best friend to both dramatize and put in perspective the sadness, and aloneness that she felt. 

That's how I saw it as well.  Lauren did a great job with her feeling of devastation in that scene.

[Melancholy]

"With the putting away the books... I've seen this movie a lot so if you don't remember the putting the books away scene, don't feel stupid or anything."- one of the most relatable ON POINT Lorelai lines. 

[Viqutorious]

13 hours ago, Melancholy said:

 

Interesting. I agree that Luke is absolutely NOT a Hubble. But I didn't get irritated with Lorelai's The Way We Were rant because I never felt Lorelai was equating the personalities or the romance. She ultimately concluded that she similarly felt like she lost her best friend. A highly emotional, distraught Lorelai was reaching for a best friend to both dramatize and put in perspective the sadness, and aloneness that she felt. Probably there was a better example but it was reasonable, emotional lurch to compare how Katie felt like she sunk her entire life and tried making a totally new personality for this romance and her feelings of devastation when it ended. I always thought the call was more OTT and inapplicable of Lorelai defensively arguing that like Katie, Lorelai did EVERYTHING, for this romance and she put herself ALL IN at Dozys, so it was similarly devastating that Luke broke up with her. Lorelai was reacting to the humiliation that she felt at putting herself all in Dozys and begging for the relationship back, but Luke breaking up with her. Now, that's not a fair comparison but it still worked for me because I agree that was Lorelai's headspace.

 

Regardless, Amy took a classic scene from The Way we Were and placed it in Gilmore Girls. Lorelai and Katie had zero in common. Luke wasn't Lorelai's best friend, she had Rory and Sookie! She was far from alone. On the other hand Katie didn't have anyone but Hubble, and was an isolated outcast, therefore it was believable and heart breaking to watch. 

  I agree that Lauren Graham is a good actress, however that entire scene felt disingenuous to me.

Edited April 23, 2017 by CheeseBurgh

[openwindow]

Hi Gilmorians! I just registered but have read this thread for a few weeks now and am so impressed with the level of discourse. This show seems to attract exceptionally smart and insightful fans. It was also comforting to read that some of you are as addicted to caffeine as Lorelai and I are. :)

I have the most upopular opinion possible, aside from maybe naming Liz and TJ as my favorite characters or declaring that nightmarish musical in the revival the best 22 minutes of TV I've ever seen. (Neither of which is my opinion at all!) By now the scenes with Luke/Lorelai, Rory/Jess and Rory/Paris are the only ones I love rewatching, and I'll fast forward through most of the rest of the episodes.

Please don't take that to mean that I think the romantic relationships on this show were brilliantly written. Some of you have perfectly pinpointed the myriad ways ASP et al. fell short in that area, and I'm of the probably not too unpopular opinion that the scenes between the couples I mentioned, Luke/Lorelai and Rory/Jess, were generally a lot more fun and interesting to watch before they got together, because as others have said, writing happy couples seems to be in violation of ASP's credo :)  But, and this is where I get so unpopular that I'll probably be the first person ever booted off this site after just one post, I find Rory and Lorelai so insufferable when they're around each other. They're so cutesy and so many of their scenes seem to amount to 'no, YOU're the best, okay, we're BOTH the best, and we're so pretty and smart and have the coolest taste in music and all facets of life and isn't it hilarious how everyone else on planet earth is so inferior to us in every conceivable way.' There are exceptions to every rule (and all of my weird opinions), so of course there are a few Lorelai/Rory scenes that I find touching or entertaining, but in general there's something about their dynamic that seems to get more obnoxious to me as the show and I both continue to age, and seeing how Rory turned out in later seasons and the revival makes me like it even less.   

Around Luke, Lorelai seems calmer, more challenged to think introspectively about who she is and what she wants before impulsively self-sabotaging, more stable and a little more at peace with her demons. Around almost everyone else, often including Rory, Lorelai acts like she's constantly in the midst of a strained standup comedy routine that no one asked her to perform. I understand why some think she's more subdued and therefore less happy around Luke, but I always viewed that as Lorelai being genuinely comfortable with him and with herself, not worried about constantly entertaining her other friends, being "the cool mom" to Rory, or proving herself to Emily and Richard. 

Around Jess and Paris, and often only Jess and Paris, Rory isn't coddled or unconditionally revered, she's constantly jolted out of her comfort zone and forced to examine and confront things on both intellectual and emotional levels that Lorelai, Lane, Dean and most of the townspeople rarely ask her to do. 

So that's probably my strangest opinion, that I strongly prefer Rory and Lorelai when they're with Luke, Jess or Paris, not around each other. I have a few more oddball views too :) 

I understand why it drives people crazy that Lorelai was so petty and immature in her relationship with her parents, but people that critical, judgmental, cold, unforgiving, elitist and biased can be impossible to deal with, and to be honest Lorelai sometimes handled them better than I would have, so I cut her more slack in that area than most folks here do. 

I hate the Life and Death Brigade, and that includes Logan. 

I'm slightly less critical of ASP than some, especially when it comes to the first 4-5 seasons of the show, but good lord, ASP is so bad at writing about anything having to do with finances and class distinctions. I laughed so hard when people here wondered if ASP was under the misconception that she was writing for Regency era England instead, with Logan's impending marriage to Odette supposedly being "for dynastic reasons" (lol) in the revival just the icing on that cake. I'm usually pretty good at accepting that some stuff on this show is exaggerated or even inaccurate to boost the comedic or dramatic value of a scene, but I just can't with ASP and her bizarre, inconsistent ideas about money and class.  

I still absolutely love Luke. That doesn't mean I think he's perfect or anywhere close, and like literally almost every other character on this show, he is annoyingly dense when it comes to communicating and functioning in a healthy romantic relationship. He's not even my usual type of guy, but I think this show really needed someone like Luke to mitigate some of the tweeness. To me, he grounded not just Lorelai but the show in general, especially once Rory became harder for me to relate to.  I will head over to other threads to ramble more about why I love him and still feel so invested in Luke/Lorelai despite disliking A LOT of ASP's writing choices. 

I really love Lorelai too, though I realize some of what I wrote above makes it sound otherwise! She's like a family member: someone who drives me crazy more often than not but who I still love and feel attached to anyway. 

I totally agree with what someone said above about early Sookie and the initial phases of her relationship with Jackson being underrated. 

I can't tell if this is unpopular, but 2 and 4 are by far my favorite seasons. 

Edited April 24, 2017 by openwindow

[Taryn74]

29 minutes ago, openwindow said:

Around almost everyone else, often including Rory, Lorelai acts like she's constantly in the midst of a strained standup comedy routine that no one asked her to perform.

Quoting just because that deserved to be quoted.  Dear lord, so much yes to this!

[Anela]

4 hours ago, CheeseBurgh said:

Regardless, Amy took a classic scene from The Way we Were and placed it in Gilmore Girls. Lorelai and Katie had zero in common. Luke wasn't Lorelai's best friend, she had Rory and Sookie! She was far from alone. On the other hand Katie didn't have anyone but Hubble, and was an isolated outcast, therefore it was believable and heart breaking to watch. 

  I agree that Lauren Graham is a good actress, however that entire scene felt disingenuous to me.

I think I saw the movie once, and don't remember anything about it - but with Luke, I remember her being upset whenever they argued. 

"I want Luke back."

"He's standing right here."

"No he's not."

Because he wasn't acting like they were friends, he was just there, serving her coffee, but not talking. She told him at one point, that she had few people that she was close to, but that she considered him to be one of the few - he agreed that he was one of those people. 

[Anela]

@openwindow Earlier on, there was something that bugged me in an episode where Rory and Lorelai were talking about Marty, and his immature behaviour. I didn't like Marty when he came back into the show, *but* it also bugged me when Rory asked why she had to be the bigger person, and Lorelai said that she was eleven feet talk, and he was a mere mortal. 

[Melancholy]

11 hours ago, Anela said:

I think I saw the movie once, and don't remember anything about it - but with Luke, I remember her being upset whenever they argued. 

"I want Luke back."

"He's standing right here."

"No he's not."

Because he wasn't acting like they were friends, he was just there, serving her coffee, but not talking. She told him at one point, that she had few people that she was close to, but that she considered him to be one of the few - he agreed that he was one of those people. 

Yes. Lorelai is a very extroverted person who is incredibly sensitive to slights or disruptions in her social/family life. And while Lorelai was best friends with Sookie and Rory too, Luke was also a best friend and a pretty indispensable one at that who provides Lorelai's meals, fixes her house, and is generally the friend that Lorelai can lean on in hard times. A person can have other people but still feel bereft that they're losing a best friend. 

I also have no objection to the use of The Way We Were. The movie was alluded to but the dialogue and the twist that Lorelai regretted leaving the message and tried stealing the tape but Luke had already broken into the house to rescue her from whatever and so on was entirely original Gilmore Girls. GG is a pop culture show and the Girls, especially Lorelai, think and live with pop culture as their major guides. It makes sense that Lorelai would conceptualize a break up with The Way We Were. Important movies are guideposts for my life, and that applies to Lorelai. It's a less extensive reliance on pop culture than the show making an ENTIRE plot line about Lorelai and Christopher seeing Funny Face and showing multiple scenes from the movie...as we watch them watch the movie...in the hopes that a little musical magic from Hollywood's Silver Age would class up Lorelai/Christopher and bring them out of the seedy Just Broken Up Booty Call Stage to a credible relationship. 

Edited April 24, 2017 by Melancholy

[openwindow]

I laughed when I saw there's a thread to devoted solely to hating on Lorelai, and even though I get it and feel like if I had a dollar for every time she drives me crazy I'd have almost as much money as Emily and Richard by now, my unpopular opinion is that I think Rory is much worse. I dislike Rory so much later on that it's now hard for me to recapture the affection I had for her earlier on. I keep seeing ominous signs of what she eventually becomes and just feel like Alexis sometimes plays her with this spaced out detachment that makes her seem like less of a multi-faceted person than most of the other characters even though, like others here, I'm an introverted bibliophile who initially identified with her. Introverts work best when they're played by actors who can convey a lot of layers and a tangled mass of feelings and thoughts that they're not expressing, and even though Alexis was good in a lot of the funny scenes and when reacting to strong and abrasive characters like Paris and Jess, she didn't usually give me the sense that there was much going on beneath the surface. It's not like I think Rory necessarily has more or even worse flaws than Lorelai does, just that hers make her a lot less compelling and entertaining a character to me. Plus, Lorelai's flaws are at least somewhat acknowledged in canon while Rory is nearly always perceived as perfect by most people other than the audience. 

Also putting me in contention for the Miss Unpopularity crown is that I like a lot of episodes others hate purely because they'll have a few scenes, usually Luke/Lorelai, Rory/Jess or Rory/Paris scenes, that I really like. As others have said, GG is composed of some brilliant individual parts that don't always come together as a cohesive whole, so I am all about enjoying those individual scenes and ignoring the aspects of the show that fall short, lol. As a result, I will find myself rewatching scenes from episodes like Kiss and Tell, Tippecanoe, Road Trip, Ins and Out of Inns, Secrets and Loans, Lorelai Out of Water, Here Comes the Son, Tippecanoe, Women of Questionable Morals, Blame Booze and Melville and other episodes that rank low on fans' lists :-) 

[Guest]

5 hours ago, openwindow said:

 

I laughed when I saw there's a thread to devoted solely to hating on Lorelai, and even though I get it and feel like if I had a dollar for every time she drives me crazy I'd have almost as much money as Emily and Richard by now, my unpopular opinion is that I think Rory is much worse. 

 

Do you mean you'd have enough for a comfortable retirement as long as you kept your pension or get your name on a planetarium rich? Because the show seems to think those two aren't very far apart.

[Melancholy]

19 hours ago, openwindow said:

I laughed when I saw there's a thread to devoted solely to hating on Lorelai, and even though I get it and feel like if I had a dollar for every time she drives me crazy I'd have almost as much money as Emily and Richard by now, my unpopular opinion is that I think Rory is much worse. I dislike Rory so much later on that it's now hard for me to recapture the affection I had for her earlier on. I keep seeing ominous signs of what she eventually becomes and just feel like Alexis sometimes plays her with this spaced out detachment that makes her seem like less of a multi-faceted person than most of the other characters even though, like others here, I'm an introverted bibliophile who initially identified with her. Introverts work best when they're played by actors who can convey a lot of layers and a tangled mass of feelings and thoughts that they're not expressing, and even though Alexis was good in a lot of the funny scenes and when reacting to strong and abrasive characters like Paris and Jess, she didn't usually give me the sense that there was much going on beneath the surface. It's not like I think Rory necessarily has more or even worse flaws than Lorelai does, just that hers make her a lot less compelling and entertaining a character to me. Plus, Lorelai's flaws are at least somewhat acknowledged in canon while Rory is nearly always perceived as perfect by most people other than the 

Heh. I've eagerly participated in the Lorelai hate thread but I've wondered why the other lead character doesn't have one. And I say this as someone who likes Rory. Actually, I've reasoned it because I actually feel the opposite about how the Girls flaws are treated in canon. IMO, Rory is far more blatantly shown to Break Bad when she's fucking up and a thread about hating on her for her affairs with Dean and Logan or for dropping out of Yale would be dull because OF COURSE, Rory was fucking up then. With Lorelai, there's novelty in arguing why x ostensibly cute or spunky righteous action was insufferable or why she's not a victim but an instigator in actions even though Lauren put on her beautiful and compelling sad face. Rory doesn't have that as much but she has been guilty of that "actually terrible, authorially terrific" behavior so I wouldn't be adverse to a similar hate thread as Lorelai's. 

Oooh, here's a big UO. I made no secrets that I think Lorelai treated Luke badly with regard to The Christopher Issue and how I thought Tequila Night and the rest of that story or running to bang Christopher after Luke didn't take her ultimatum were all serious betrayals. But to add the UO part, I think Lorelai's behavior in that triangle was worse than Rory's with Dean and Jess. Even though Rory's mistakes were more clearly dramatized and irony of ironies, Lorelai repeatedly yelled at her about it. Rory constantly had her attraction and fondness for Jess tested because circumstances threw them together, whether it was the diner or the tutoring or Jess's machinations or the real injustice of Jess's life. Rory tried being loyal to Dean but life made it hard to be. Lorelai, on the other hand, was actively looking for Christopher time. 

Edited April 25, 2017 by Melancholy

[shron17]

1 hour ago, Melancholy said:

But to add the UO part, I think Lorelai's behavior in that triangle was worse than Rory's with Dean and Jess.

 I would agree with this.  It often surprises me how many viewers side with Lorelai and use her perception of the truth to argue her case when it seems so obvious to me she's in the wrong.  It may be that she's more of a lead character in the show with a more compelling personality than Rory. 

[Kohola3]

2 hours ago, Melancholy said:

But to add the UO part, I think Lorelai's behavior in that triangle was worse than Rory's with Dean and Jess.

I agree as well.  Rory was still very young and had lea\d a sheltered life.  One's "first love" can make you nutty and I don't give a pass for Rory sleeping with a married man but she fell for the "it's not going to work" rhetoric that (sadly) so often works with young women.  Lorelai was (supposedly) a mature adult who should have taken a pause before acting out as she did.  Thinking through the cause and effect of actions is what makes you an adult.  She acted more like a spoiled toddler - "if I don't get what I want am going to throw my tantrum and won't YOU be sorry".

[Melancholy]

Well, and per the discussion on how the text treats the Girls, no one really yells at Lorelai for how she treated Luke via a vis Christopher except Luke. But Luke is tricky because he doesn't launch into a lecture about the morals of Lorelai's behavior. It's not his style. He deals with his emotions by trying to practically see the end result ("Your parents and Christopher are just going to keep doing this.") or by aggressively trying to recover his masculine pride even as he takes the low road to get there ("I'm fine. After all, I'm not the one who proposed.")

But with Rory, Dean is the kind of guy who speaks in paragraphs about how Rory was a bad person. And most of all, Lorelai was criticizing Rory's behavior as immoral right down to "Do you think it's right for you to tutor Jess if you think you have to lie to Dean about it?" blatant hypocrisy when contrasted with Tequila Night. 

[openwindow]

I think I need to start a "Lorelai is flawed but I still love her" thread since I seem to be the only person who feels that way ;) 

I should probably stay in the more positive threads because the constant hatred for Lorelai and the show in general kind of gets me down, but that's just my own issue! I'm writing my first fanfic so I want to try to focus on the aspects of the show I love :) But you all really are the smartest and most perceptive fans on the web, and it's been great talking to you! 

[Anela]

15 hours ago, deaja said:

Do you mean you'd have enough for a comfortable retirement as long as you kept your pension or get your name on a planetarium rich? Because the show seems to think those two aren't very far apart.

I never understood that - his mother was rich, and Emily also came from money. Suddenly, Emily was worried about him quitting his job?

I know it's just a TV show, and who wouldn't want the option of being able to fall back on a trust fund? But whenever I watch the later episodes, it's bothered me that the option is there. Rory partying with Logan, and living his lifestyle - although she did pull back, after she wrote that article, and realized that she was being a hypocrite. But her dad being so rich that he was able to get a restaurant opened to feed himself and Lorelai? That's the sort of thing that I thought she ran away from. The entitlement that goes with that. Getting people out of bed, to open the place, and cook for them. 

9 minutes ago, openwindow said:

I think I need to start a "Lorelai is flawed but I still love her" thread since I seem to be the only person who feels that way ;) 

I should probably stay in the more positive threads because the constant hatred for Lorelai and the show in general kind of gets me down, but that's just my own issue! I'm writing my first fanfic so I want to try to focus on the aspects of the show I love :) But you all really are the smartest and most perceptive fans on the web, and it's been great talking to you! 

I would post there! :) I don't hate her. There are ways in which she reminds me of my mother, and I started watching the series with my mum. ♥ She was funny, came out with those little quips, and lines, but also serious - kept a roof over our heads, worked hard, etc. 

[junienmomo]

On 4/25/2017 at 9:07 PM, Anela said:

But her dad being so rich that he was able to get a restaurant opened to feed himself and Lorelai? That's the sort of thing that I thought she ran away from. The entitlement that goes with that. Getting people out of bed, to open the place, and cook for them.

The Richard job followed by the planetarium is absurd! Was he such a bad money manager that Trix didn't trust him with money before she died? 

Christopher I can fanwank because it was implied he was bad with money. Also he was willing to spend millions on Lorelai and Rory, offering castles and the like. If you wave tens of thousands of dollars in front of most restaurants you're going to find someone who will open up.

Rory didn't run away from that; Lorelai did, taking Rory along for the ride.

[Anela]

26 minutes ago, junienmomo said:

The Richard job followed by the planetarium is absurd! Was he such a bad money manager that Trix didn't trust him with money before she died? 

Christopher I can fanwank because it was implied he was bad with money. Also he was willing to spend millions on Lorelai and Rory, offering castles and the like. If you wave tens of thousands of dollars in front of most restaurants you're going to find someone who will open up.

Rory didn't run away from that; Lorelai did, taking Rory along for the ride.

I know that Rory didn't run away from it, but that's why I was surprised that Lorelai was fine with it. Usually her attitude would be, "Rich people" in an "ugh" way. 

[shron17]

8 hours ago, Anela said:

I know that Rory didn't run away from it, but that's why I was surprised that Lorelai was fine with it. Usually her attitude would be, "Rich people" in an "ugh" way. 

Not only was she fine with it, but delighted and impressed.  I hate that episode so much.

[Melancholy]

On April 25, 2017 at 3:07 PM, Anela said:

I know it's just a TV show, and who wouldn't want the option of being able to fall back on a trust fund? But whenever I watch the later episodes, it's bothered me that the option is there. Rory partying with Logan, and living his lifestyle - although she did pull back, after she wrote that article, and realized that she was being a hypocrite. But her dad being so rich that he was able to get a restaurant opened to feed himself and Lorelai? That's the sort of thing that I thought she ran away from. The entitlement that goes with that. Getting people out of bed, to open the place, and cook for them. 

I'm as anti-Chris as anyone but I didn't have a problem with him bribing the French restaurant to open early. It's a pretty straightforward exchange of paying a premium for labor not during usual business hours- which is fine as long as that premium is paid. It's less obnoxious than say firmly Stars Hallow, middle-income Lorelai hovering over customers' tables at Luke to annoy them into giving up their tables for free or barging into Luke's apartment so he comes down and cooks them pancakes even though it's clear that he's busy that morning and delegated to Cesar for a reason. 

[Katy M]

37 minutes ago, Melancholy said:

I'm as anti-Chris as anyone but I didn't have a problem with him bribing the French restaurant to open early. It's a pretty straightforward exchange of paying a premium for labor not during usual business hours- which is fine as long as that premium is paid. It's less obnoxious than say firmly Stars Hallow, middle-income Lorelai hovering over customers' tables at Luke to annoy them into giving up their tables for free or barging into Luke's apartment so he comes down and cooks them pancakes even though it's clear that he's busy that morning and delegated to Cesar for a reason. 

If someone tried to bully me out of a table at a diner restaurant, would cancel my plans for the rest of the day and just sit at that table until closing.  OK, exaggerating, but I would  stay lonerger than otherwise.

[Taryn74]

30 minutes ago, Katy M said:

If someone tried to bully me out of a table at a diner restaurant, would cancel my plans for the rest of the day and just sit at that table until closing.  

Ha ha ha I so wish that had happened!

[Guest]

Especially by sneezing where people are eating?  Gross.

[shron17]

3 hours ago, Melancholy said:

I'm as anti-Chris as anyone but I didn't have a problem with him bribing the French restaurant to open early.

I don't have a problem with that either, just the way that Lorelai acted like it was so cool.  She even said "do people really do that?" like she wasn't brought up by Emily and Richard who never hesitated to use their money and social standing to get whatever they wanted.  I do agree that what Lorelai and Rory did to get tables at the diner was worse (even if it was pretty funny).

[Anela]

3 hours ago, Melancholy said:

I'm as anti-Chris as anyone but I didn't have a problem with him bribing the French restaurant to open early. It's a pretty straightforward exchange of paying a premium for labor not during usual business hours- which is fine as long as that premium is paid. It's less obnoxious than say firmly Stars Hallow, middle-income Lorelai hovering over customers' tables at Luke to annoy them into giving up their tables for free or barging into Luke's apartment so he comes down and cooks them pancakes even though it's clear that he's busy that morning and delegated to Cesar for a reason. 

 

3 hours ago, Katy M said:

If someone tried to bully me out of a table at a diner restaurant, would cancel my plans for the rest of the day and just sit at that table until closing.  OK, exaggerating, but I would  stay lonerger than otherwise.

I usually comment on these things as they're playing in the background, and I hear something. Paris was the other day. It just occurred to me at the time - I can't see her loving Emily and Richard, if they'd done the same thing. 

[JayInChicago]

If she had heard her parents had done the same thing, she would have compared them to mr and mrs hitler probably.

when David R inherited the show in season 7, did he have free reign or was perhaps the France episode an already written hold over script or something? Because I'd like to know who is to blame for it.

I'm not impressed whenever chris uses his new wealth to impress Lorelai. Like the projecting a movie on the side of the barn thing. I forget which episode that is, but it's late season 6, yes? I just hate that Chris "wins" Lorelai through use of money. She really is quite hypocritical.

[Melancholy]

Well, I agree that Lorelai would have jeered at her parents if they bribed a restaurant to open before sunrise. I was defending Chris there. But absolutely, Lorelai would have been a big hypocrite if this came up with her parents. 

I can also agree with @JayInChicago that Chris won Lorelai over with money and that's gross. I don't have a problem with a rich man entertaining a girlfriend lavishly. It's fine to have fun with a fortune and buy beautiful experiences. However, Chris and Lorelai had a toxic history together where Chris repeatedly wronged Lorelai and that was papered over by Chris doing big, expensive stunts and Lorelai letting herself be bought by those stunts. 

[shron17]

6 hours ago, JayInChicago said:

I just hate that Chris "wins" Lorelai through use of money. She really is quite hypocritical.

I don't know, to me, it feels more like both are written out of character than Lorelai being hypocritical.  In season 2 Chris and Lorelai sat on a bench together bonding over how neither wanted their parents' lives.  In season 6 Lorelai and Rory politely turned down Chris's offer to buy them castles and breweries.  If there was a situation where a bribe was needed, wouldn't it have been done reluctantly, downplayed, and with a healthy dose of "Am I turning into my father/mother?"  For me, it was one of many times in season 7 that the characters were a little off and it felt like a different show.

My UO is that I would rank both season 6 and AYITL higher than season 7.

Edited April 27, 2017 by shron17

[junienmomo]

6 hours ago, shron17 said:

I don't know, to me, it feels more like both are written out of character than Lorelai being hypocritical.

  Agreed that Lorelai was out of character, although I would extend that way back to early S6. 

She was impressed by Christopher throwing money around, which she professed to hate, yet, she took it as her due for all the hundreds of times Luke opened his business for her. For someone who passionately defended small town life, this was hypocritical. It just wasn't the Lorelai I knew from earlier seasons.