One is the Loneliest Number: Unpopular GG Opinions

[dustylil]

JayinChicago, I am not sure either how grateful Rory would have to been to satisfy Emily. I would have thought at the very least Emily might have expected a note of goodbye from her. Even the teenage Lorelai was capable of that. But sending some strange young men to collect her things (and whatever else took their fancy) was more of a metaphorical kick in the teeth than anything else.

[txhorns79]

I am not sure either how grateful Rory would have to been to satisfy Emily. I would have thought at the very least Emily might have expected a note of goodbye from her. Even the teenage Lorelai was capable of that.

 

I think it would have been extremely cruel for Rory to leave in the same manner her mother did, complete with a "Dear Emily and Richard"-style letter.  Rory knows what happened with her mother, so I can't imagine she would try to recreate that moment for her grandparents.  I'm not saying Rory wasn't thoughtless and rude, but I suppose you could also say Emily was close to going off the deep end (complete with slipping and confusing Rory for Lorelai), so it did not make much difference in the grand scheme of things. 

[amensisterfriend]

UO: I think the show's sad decline started in Season 5, not in Season 6. Maybe even at the end of Season 4, at least as it relates to Rory's characterization and the show's turn towards the more 'soapy.' (I hold the unpopular opinion that the trilogy is overrated, and the Boom episodes are terrible!) Certain things about Season 5 bother me so much that I'd actually watch most of Season 7 than much of Season 5. Though at this point in my GG fandom, I'd be fine never seeing more than two or three post-Season 4 episodes again :) 

Edited October 11, 2014 by amensisterfriend

[sunflower]

 

UO: I think the show's sad decline started in Season 5, not in Season 6. Maybe even at the end of Season 4, at least as it relates to Rory's characterization

 

I agree about the Season 4/Season 5 decline in the sense of Rory because Dean was just a boring step backwards and Logan, to me, was ultimately only interesting for a few episodes.  I'll admit, I heart Jess.  Weirdly, I love Season 4 and believe it to be underrated.  When I watched it live, I didn't love it, but binge watching on my DVDs years back (wow, DVDs), I simply love it.  I like the feel of it being a weird transitional season with Rory in college and Lorelai prepping the Dragonfly and ending in the Luke/Lorelai romance.  

 

Season 5, I think is popular, but things get annoying with Rory and her pathetic reaction to Logan's dad telling her she didn't have it.  Also, I hated the way Emily and Richard acted towards Luke, it was extreme and dull.  

 

I'm sure this isn't an unpopular opinion, but I'll never understand what ASP was smoking when she decided on the April plot point.  

Edited October 11, 2014 by sunflower

[AlinaRay]

Wasn't ASP bitter about leaving GG? Maybe she was thinking "let me mess up the show as much as I can and then see what they do about it"

[JayInChicago]

UO: I think the show's sad decline started in Season 5, not in Season 6. Maybe even at the end of Season 4...

 

YES A MILLION TIMES YES.  For me, the point of diminishing returns is Raincoats and Recipes, which I might be repeating myself at this point. It's not so much Rory sleeping with Dean as an isolated incident that makes me dislike that episode (which I gather is a deal breaker for many)...I just find it rather implausible that Rory would leave the Dragonfly opening AND have sex with Dean AND have Lorelai catch them right after. Also add in Digger showing up, thus getting L and L on a rough start AND inviting the separated Grandparents into the romance bungalow that AFAIK was never mentioned again, causing MOAR drama with Emily...it's a ridiculously soapy episode and while I like the show zany and off the wall, there's kind of a line.

 

Also Lor and Rory's rift is somewhat predicated on her sleeping with Married!Dean, and he is just so not worth it.

[junienmomo]

Hmm, interesting perspective on Raincoats, Jay and others... I hadn't thought about that being the start of the decline. 

I'll pay more attention as I rewatch.

They did make a mess of getting rid of Digger and Emily and Richard. Fine, Digger's presence was needed for drama between L&L, but Emily and Richard were just out of place, and a ridiculous rehash of Bracebridge.

[amensisterfriend]

For me, the point of diminishing returns is Raincoats and Recipes, which I might be repeating myself at this point. It's not so much Rory sleeping with Dean as an isolated incident that makes me dislike that episode (which I gather is a deal breaker for many)...I just find it rather implausible that Rory would leave the Dragonfly opening AND have sex with Dean AND have Lorelai catch them right after. Also add in Digger showing up, thus getting L and L on a rough start AND inviting the separated Grandparents into the romance bungalow that AFAIK was never mentioned again, causing MOAR drama with Emily...it's a ridiculously soapy episode and while I like the show zany and off the wall, there's kind of a line.

 

Table for two, please! I can't tell you how exciting it is to find someone else who's ambivalent about that widely adored episode. I love that Lorelai finally realizes her series-long dream of opening the inn, but almost nothing else about the trilogy works for me. And you're so right about Digger. It's not just that they suddenly made him a creepy stalker, but of course Luke and Lorelai's first kiss had to be preceded by more of the ridiculous anger, jealousy, bickering and misunderstanding that would come to characterize far too much of their relationship. In retrospect, this episode was a major sign that I'd end up holding my UO of feeling Luke and Lorelai were far better suited as friends than as (IMUO) frustratingly incompatible, chemistry-deficient romantic partners.  

Edited October 12, 2014 by amensisterfriend

[junienmomo]

I don't know how unpopular this opinion is, but I would have much preferred a series that had a planned ending, rather than the usual American TV method of milking a show long past it jumped the shark. 

Five seasons would have been about perfect, with the exception of getting Rory through Yale, which I think was always necessary. Although if they'd started Rory at Chilton in her junior year, and skipped the Yale break, it would have worked. 

The best stories have endings, and I feel like the last seasons were mostly contrivances intended to extend the franchise. 

[amensisterfriend]

I don't know how unpopular this opinion is, but I would have much preferred a series that had a planned ending, rather than the usual American TV method of milking a show long past it jumped the shark.

 

It's so true! I'll take it a step further and say the actual plotting and storytelling of GG was NEVER more than mediocre, even when the series was at its very best. The dialogue, characterizations, (most of) the acting, camera work, overall tone and feel, etc. were all golden for me those first few seasons, but the story structure and plotting always seemed kind of sloppy and haphazard to me. The show was always FAR better at creating individual scenes and moments of sheer brilliance than coherent story arcs. Thank the TV gods this wasn't a plot-driven show :) 

 

Here's another unpopular opinion: I don't think Lauren Graham is that great an actress overall. I think LG and, er, LG (Lauren Graham and Lorelai Gilmore!) were an example of that perfect, heaven made match between actress and role. Beyond this specific part, though, I haven't been all that impressed with LG. And while I really wanted to love her in 'real life', her interviews make me think she'd be even more insufferable than Lorelai on her most annoying day! Lauren Graham just comes across to me as so deliberately ditzy, cutesy, and annoyingly manic. 

[txhorns79]

Here's another unpopular opinion: I don't think Lauren Graham is that great an actress overall. I think LG and, er, LG (Lauren Graham and Lorelai Gilmore!) were an example of that perfect, heaven made match between actress and role.

 

Perhaps it is like January Jones.  She is perfect as Betty Draper, but has been terrible in other roles.  I would agree that I've been less impressed with Lauren Graham as time has gone on.  After seeing her in Parenthood, I feel like her acting range is much more limited than I originally thought.  Her character on that show has an entirely different background than Lorelai Gilmore, but I feel as though she plays the character exactly the same.   

 

As to plotting, I think there were some overall arcs that ran through the early seasons, particularly getting Lorelai from daydreaming about owning an inn, to making that a reality.  Otherwise, I would agree that the storylines could be somewhat haphazard. 

[junienmomo]

Here are some arcs that I've seen so far. I structure the arc description in the following way: 

1. starting point
2. what they want
3. how they ended the show

 

Rory

1. 16 y.o. child, with her mother's dream of Harvard and her mother's work ethic
2. At first, to fulfill her mother's wishes, in S6 and S7, to live fully her own life
3. She got as far as being able to take a big chance on the fellowship and even to the point of turning down a marriage ultimatum from the man she loved

 

Luke

1. Living his own life undisturbed, to the point of not being willing to take chances to get something better. He knew himself pretty well, especially things he didn't want.
2. After his time parenting Jess, he was able to change himself enough to take some chances. Not only did he finally grow enough to proactively respond to Lorelai, he even responded to Taylor's incessant call to be a bigger part of SH
3. Ultimately he came completely into SH society, and we can presume he got his choice of mate. 

 

Lorelai

1. Stuck between two worlds, not giving up on wanting to have a good relationship with her mother, but also fully committed to her single motherhood and career. Had a very neurotic need to have the "ideal" relationship. In contrast to Chris' opinion of her as going for what she wanted, she could never commit to an adult man unless he made his feelings clear first.
2. As far as my very biased self can observe, she didn't move at all character-wise until she finally achieved her mother's ideal marriage to Christopher. Only then could she start to reach out to others. 
3. I still see Lorelai as susceptible to her parents unreasonableness, but at least she was able to let Chris go. She was not by any means ready for an adult relationship yet, but she had made strides.

 

Emily

1. Was willing to do a lot to get her daughter back into the family, except accept Lorelai for who she is
2. Had some emotional movement early on, but retreated into "rich society mama knows best" mode for most of the series.
3. Accepts Lorelai as her own person somewhat, but I don't think Emily changed very much, and AFAIK she still hated Luke at the end

 

Dean

1. Beautiful Adonis who floated down from heaven in time to be enchanted by the young Lorelai (=Rory)
2. Tried to keep up with her, but soon found himself in a world he could not cope with
3. Crumbled to bits with each step Rory took towards being her own person

 

Jess

1. Impossible know-it-all who could not open up to anyone
2. Found Rory so irresistible that he started to change, but too little, too late for her. Was so convinced that he knew what she needed that he felt that if she would just listen to him, they'd be happy (reminds me of Lorelai that way)
3. Was battered by Rory's growth, but had the blessing of being sent away and really fend for himself, in which he achieved modest success. Sadly for him, it was very late before he stopped giving her the "come away with me right now" ultimatum.

Edited October 12, 2014 by junienmomo

[stanleyk]

I don't find the way the GG's eat to be cute or fun. If they were morbidly obese eating like that, people would do nothing but mock them. I know this is a cliche that's used over and over again, but I find it really annoying on rewatch. It didn't bug me that much until my latest rewatch actually. They also never actually enjoy the copious amounts of food they buy. They never even ingest it!

 

 

This totally bugs me, too. Watching the show in its initial run, I thought this character trait was kind of fun and at least an attempt to combat the notion that women shouldn't have hearty appetites. It seems even more affected when you notice, as I did on rewatch, that they almost never actually touch the food they order - a tacit admission that the actresses don't actually eat that food when filming because, no, most people can't eat like that and remain rail-thin. I love the fantasy quality of the show - somewhere, I read Stars Hollow described as a town in a snowglobe and I thought that was spot-on - but this particular quirk is irksome. Or quirksome, I guess. Is that a word? It should be, and it should be applied to GG and most of its characters: quirksome.

 

I'm in the middle of a Netflix rewatch and I'm finding my views have changed on a number of things. Like others have stated on this thread, Dean is The Worst. I think maybe on the original run I was swayed by TWOP's early love of "Cute Dean" (can't remember if it cooled over time) and that was still the way I thought of him: cute, adorable, sweet Dean. I apparently blocked out creepy, scowly, possessive, jealous Dean until this rewatch. I also think there is less than zero sexual chemistry with Rory. I know they're supposed to be kids, but they way they kiss is incredibly passionless. Anyway, my hate is super-strong for him. And for Jess, whom I find insufferably obnoxious, whether he clicks with Rory or no. Probably my age showing, though.

 

Not sure I have any new UOs to offer, but I'm only through S2 on this rewatch so some might come to me. I think what I really notice though is how difficult the show is to take on a binge-watch. I've had to take a number of breaks because I find myself becoming enraged with the characters (especially Lorelai) if I watch more than one or two episodes at a time.

[amensisterfriend]

I've had to take a number of breaks because I find myself becoming enraged with the characters (especially Lorelai) if I watch more than one or two episodes at a time.

 

Ha! As obsessed as I am with this show, even I think that it's really mood-dependent. If I'm craving the quirky, crazily witty warmth of GG, nothing else will satisfy me. If I'm in a certain frame of mind, though, that line between high energy uniqueness and obnoxiously manic ridiculousness starts to feel REALLY thin, and I find myself irrationally annoyed with nearly everyone and everything about the show :)

 

 

 

I apparently blocked out creepy, scowly, possessive, jealous Dean until this rewatch. I also think there is less than zero sexual chemistry with Rory.

 

Heh---yeah, every single time I rewatch, I try to see the "sweet", engaging, Best Boyfriend Ever that we're supposed to...and every time, I fail miserably to find Dean anything other than a petulant, creepily possessive, dour bore. And I agree that they had less than no chemistry. I feel like AB looked mildly to moderately horrified when having to show affection and attraction to anyone other than Jess :) 

 

Aside from the Lorelai/Rory dynamic of early seasons, Rory/Paris is still my very favorite relationship on the show---definitely more so than any of the (usually poorly depicted) romances. Sad...but true :)  

Edited October 13, 2014 by amensisterfriend

[Aloeonatable]

Don't know if this is UO, but my favorite couple on the show were Luke and Jess. 

 

 

I fail miserably to find Dean anything other than a petulant, creepily possessive, dour bore.

So many viewers said Dean became brainless (and all of the other adjectives you've chosen) when Jess appeared. I found him much the same from the beginning. Sure he seemed to be somewhat of a reader and threw out an occasional pop culture reference, but he was always quick-tempered, possessive and moody. 

[amensisterfriend]

Don't know if this is UO, but my favorite couple on the show were Luke and Jess.

 

Heh---they're definitely in my top five :) I actually like Luke as an uncle far more than I like Luke as a boyfriend. 

 

 

 

So many viewers said Dean became brainless (and all of the other adjectives you've chosen) when Jess appeared. I found him much the same from the beginning. Sure he seemed to be somewhat of a reader and threw out an occasional pop culture reference, but he was always quick-tempered, possessive and moody.

 

YES. I've been clumsily making this same argument forever and am thrilled that you've joined me at my tiny table ;) Aside from coming across as mildly, potentially engaging and interesting in his first appearance, I totally agree that Dean never had a well-defined personality and came off as sulky, petulant, clingy etc. to me from the outset, long before Jess showed up. I blame both the writing and the acting---judging by GG and Supernatural, Jared Padalecki's facial expressions and line deliveries make his characters come across on screen as sour and angry to me even in scenes where they're not intended to be. Granted, his negative traits were probably magnified more after Jess arrived, but I couldn't agree more that they were ALWAYS there. And, sadly, dull 'n dour Dean wasn't given many positive or interesting traits to balance them out! 

Edited October 13, 2014 by amensisterfriend

[amensisterfriend]

ETA:  I also don't get the popular argument that Dean was so uniquely supportive of Rory's dreams and all that. As soon as any of her academic or extracurricular activities threatened to interfere with the time he thought himself entitled to spend with her (approximately  every waking minute), he turned angry and petulant. 

[txhorns79]

I think Dean wasn't a particularly well developed character to begin with.  His role seemed to essentially be "Rory's boyfriend."  Once he lost that title, he really had no purpose.  And while I don't mind the actor, it wasn't like either he or Alexis Bledel were lighting up the screen with their passion for the other.  The comments about Dean coming off as angry and possessive are spot on.   

[stanleyk]

So many viewers said Dean became brainless (and all of the other adjectives you've chosen) when Jess appeared. I found him much the same from the beginning.

 

 

I agree with this, too. On rewatch, he is a bore and overly clingy from the beginning, pre-Jess. Breaking up with your girlfriend of THREE MONTHS when you're sixteen because she doesn't immediately return an "I love you" is not exactly charming or balanced behavior. To me it signals his later desperation and possessiveness. 

 

But I think what bothers me even more than Dean himself is the show's/Rory's/Lorelai's assumption that his behavior is somewhat reasonable or understandable. Rory's constant attempts to placate his jealousy, her constant apologies for whatever-the-hell that didn't require an apology, and Lorelai's insistence that Dean is "terrific," all evidence to the contrary, are making me turn against the show a little. I mean, for the show to take the position that it's perfectly natural and okay for your boyfriend to fly into a glowering rage because you spend time with someone he doesn't like, complete with physically threatening behavior and petulant sulks, and for Rory to never question whether it was okay for Dean to be dictating with whom she could and couldn't spend time (answer: it's not okay)...it's really weakening my love for Rory and the show in general.

 

But I will say it seems like a lot of people feel like Lorelai was inappropriately encouraging the relationship after Dean started harassing Rory in "Back in the Saddle Again" and Lorelai first counseled Dean to back off a bit and then pushed Rory to call him back, but I saw that differently. I think she was trying to push Rory into a more mature way to end the relationship. Rory appeared, consciously or not, to be going the typical teenage route: ignore him until he gets the message, and hopefully he'll break up with me so I won't have to do it. At the very least, I didn't see Lorelai's actions as condoning the relationship per se so much as encouraging Rory to be more communicative and open with Dean, whichever way that broke for the relationship.

[stillshimpy]

Heh, so amensisterfriend, you're totally MsTaken, aren't you?  I like the new screenname and unlike the old one, there aren't several other people with a different variation on it, so it's easier to spot you.  Well done.  

also don't get the popular argument that Dean was so uniquely supportive of Rory's dreams and all that. As soon as any of her academic or extracurricular activities threatened to interfere with the time he thought himself entitled to spend with her (approximately  every waking minute), he turned angry and petulant.

 

Fully agreed there, although I didn't actually know it was a popular opinion that he was supportive of her dreams.  I'm also doing the Netflix rewatch thing and Dean starts out rather too idealized , that date and the "I'm building you a car" and apparently being completely satisfied (as a teen boy) with exceptionally chaste kisses.  I have this weird theory that subconsciously the writers wrote Dean as being such a rage-prone, tantrum thrower as a way of showing some kind of passion within the guy, and to symbolize sexual tension (or at least interest) in the pairing, because for real, they were the oddest TV Teen couple in the respect.  Like they'd been beamed in from another decade's TV show.  

 

Like it was the only way they could figure out to give the character evidence of hormones. 

[amensisterfriend]

But I think what bothers me even more than Dean himself is the show's/Rory's/Lorelai's assumption that his behavior is somewhat reasonable or understandable. Rory's constant attempts to placate his jealousy, her constant apologies for whatever-the-hell that didn't require an apology, and Lorelai's insistence that Dean is "terrific," all evidence to the contrary, are making me turn against the show a little. I mean, for the show to take the position that it's perfectly natural and okay for your boyfriend to fly into a glowering rage because you spend time with someone he doesn't like, complete with physically threatening behavior and petulant sulks, and for Rory to never question whether it was okay for Dean to be dictating with whom she could and couldn't spend time (answer: it's not okay)...it's really weakening my love for Rory and the show in general.

 

Well said. I think the show in general has a major problem with implying that temper tantrums, frequent anger, jealousy, petulance etc. are totally acceptable---or, worse, even sexy and desirable---traits in men. For me, the problem isn't at all just limited to Dean and the Rory/Dean relationship, though that's certainly a good example of it.  I find most of the GG romantic relationships really troubling and hard to root for, and I agree that somehow it seems to get worse with rewatch!

ETA (ugh, why can't I ever gather my thoughts the first time around?!): Most of the time, it doesn't really affect my overall love for the show because the relationships I care most about aren't the romances anyway (aside from a warped fondness for Jess/Rory, which isn't exactly the model of a healthy relationship either!) But, yeah, conversations like this one remind me of why I hold the UO that I wish both Gilmores had ended the series happily single :) 

ETA, Part 2: Great to see you here, Shimpy!!! I'm glad you like my annoyingly long name :) 

Edited October 14, 2014 by amensisterfriend

[stillshimpy]

Great to see you here, Shimpy!!! I'm glad you like my annoyingly long name :)

 

Aw, I don't think it's annoyingly long :-)  It's what you always used to say for agreeing with something, so it made it possible to recognize you.  It's one of my favorite lines from the show, and one I occasionally use in real life too.   

Edited October 14, 2014 by stillshimpy

[BC Mama]

First of all, I agree with all of the above assessments of Dean! Possessiveness and jealousy are not attractive, and it breaks my heart how Rory tiptoes around Dean's feelings.

 

Second of all, it might not be popular, but Season 4 is my least favourite season. There are some sweet moments that I love (like Kirk and Lulu's first date), but for the most part, much of quirkiness that came naturally to the earlier seasons seemed rather awkward and forced (particularly the Rory story lines). I love those Gilmore Girls, but I have very little interest in watching Rory whine about losing her 'study tree' or watching her and Lorelai window shop (although I would love to have a food court meal with Emily!).

 

I also felt like Rory really started to change in Season 4. She seemed to transition from sweet and demure, into someone quite cocky! The episode where she dates poor Trevor I think reveals the new Rory. The way she gets him to ask her out again, and then makes a crack about his persistence has always bothered me.

[amensisterfriend]

BC Mama, I really like Season 4, but I hold the unpopular opinion of preferring S3 by a wide margin :) Have you seen the entire series yet? I'm curious as to whether you meant that S4 is the worst of the first four seasons or of all seven. I do also agree with you that some of Rory's entitlement surfaced in S4. 

Edited October 14, 2014 by amensisterfriend

[BC Mama]

I've seen them all, more then a couple times!! :)

[junienmomo]

  I find most of the GG romantic relationships really troubling and hard to root for, and I agree that somehow it seems to get worse with rewatch!

ETA (ugh, why can't I ever gather my thoughts the first time around?!): Most of the time, it doesn't really affect my overall love for the show because the relationships I care most about aren't the romances anyway (aside from a warped fondness for Jess/Rory, which isn't exactly the model of a healthy relationship either!) But, yeah, conversations like this one remind me of why I hold the UO that I wish both Gilmores had ended the series happily single :) 

 

It should probably be universally acknowledged that ASP is more Dorothy Parker than Jane Austen. Romance, not so much her thing. Brilliant sparkling chatter, that's her wheel house. Too bad it sagged after Season 4. 

[amensisterfriend]

It should probably be universally acknowledged that ASP is more Dorothy Parker than Jane Austen. Romance, not so much her thing. Brilliant sparkling chatter, that's her wheel house. T

 

Can I give you an 'amen, sister friend' here?! I couldn't agree more :) For all the things that were wrong with S7, I felt like DR showed at least the potential to write romance in a far warmer, more touching and charming way than AS-P. 

[amensisterfriend]

Junie brought up a great point in the nitpicking thread:

 

 

I'm going to open a new thread and post examples of happy Luke, just to show you his wonderfullyness.
There are a lot more happy Lukes than there are pleasant Jess', I'd wager. Episode for episode, of course. :)
Maybe a better thread is Happy Luke/Pleasant Jess Throwdown?

Heh---I totally didn't mean to start a Jess vs Luke throwdown! I'll happily concede that there were more instances of, er, Comparatively Happy and Pleasant Luke, but I guess I just cut Jess a little more slack: he's a teenager who was shipped off to some random uncle he barely knew by a drug using and negligent mom. (Which is not to say that I excuse most of Jess's behavior, by the way...I don't! I just happen to enjoy his connection with Rory :) ) Luke, meanwhile, is a grown man who had a far more stable and decent upbringing and who was usually angry for little to no discernible reason. Also, I'll admit that I'm more disposed to like Jess because, even as a "rebellious" teen, he's a reader and seemed to have passions and topics he was really interested in, while past S1 Luke seemed to have few to no interests and enthusiasms.

 

It's just a personal preference thing, of course, and I know I'm in a very small minority for not feeling Luke is a good boyfriend or someone I'd want to be close to in real life :)  And I do admire his generosity and loyalty. I just really don't like brutish, angry men and don't find his temper tantrums and rants sexy. (They're occasionally amusing, but as is typical with Gilmore Girls, they often go annoyingly over the line. I feel similarly about Lorelai's babbling "bits"!)  I've struggled with depression throughout much of my life, and Luke's negativity and bitterness would prove infectious for me. I also tend to be drawn to people with interests and passions, even if they're not enthusiastic about the same stuff that I am :)

 

By the way, I probably wouldn't care much for Jess in real life, either, and I'm among those who MORE than understands why Lorelai was moderately horrified at the prospect of her daughter dating him :) I just happen to have seen a chemistry and connection  between Jess and Rory and felt they had more in common than Lorelai and Luke. Plus, Jess wasn't around as many seasons for AS-P to assassinate ;)

Edited October 14, 2014 by amensisterfriend

[junienmomo]

UO is a place of sanctuary, right? I started to reply to posts here a couple of times, but realized that my answer would be more challenging someone's premise rather than adding value or information. 

[amensisterfriend]

BC Mama, now that I know Season 4 is your least favorite of the seven seasons, I'm dying to know how you'd rank the other six! Please don't feel I'm putting you on the spot...I'm always just weirdly curious about these things :) 

 

I hold the UO of feeling that S1, while wonderful in many ways, is too heavy handed and borderline treacly...and has way, way too much Dean and Max ;) 

And, as already noted, I think I prefer S7 to S5, which is highly unpopular as well. My order (and I'm so tempted to "tie" a couple of them, but won't!):

 

S2

S3

S4

S1

S7

S5

S6

 

...But S7 ranking relatively high is mostly a function of how much I dislike parts of S5 and pretty much all of S6 :) 

Edited October 15, 2014 by amensisterfriend

[BC Mama]

BC Mama, now that I know Season 4 is your least favorite of the seven seasons, I'm dying to know how you'd rank the other six! Please don't feel I'm putting you on the spot...I'm always just weirdly curious about these things :) 

 

I hold the UO of feeling that S1, while wonderful in many ways, is too heavy handed and borderline treacly...and has way, way too much Dean and Max ;) 

And, as already noted, I think I prefer S7 to S5, which is highly unpopular as well. My order (and I'm so tempted to "tie" a couple of them, but won't!):

 

S2

S3

S4

S1

S7

S5

S6

 

...But S7 ranking relatively high is mostly a function of how much I dislike parts of S5 and pretty much all of S6 :) 

 

Happy to share, and I don't feel spot put upon at all! :)

 

S1, S1, S3, S6, S5, S7, S4

[amensisterfriend]

Hee---you liked S1 enough to list it twice?! (Just kidding, of course...I'm assuming that one of your S1s was meant to be S2!) I love reading your (and everyone else's) lists, so I'm really glad you chimed in! 

[BC Mama]

Oops!! That's my preggo mama brain in action!! The second S1 should be S2!

[amensisterfriend]

One of the things I believe she liked about their friendship was that he wasn't too interested in finding other women. If they found him, that would have piqued Lorelai's interest as well as showed her the danger of taking him for granted.

 

For starters, Lorelai saw him involved with and married to Nicole and in a serious relationship with the past love of his life, Rachel. And I couldn't disagree more that the primarily problem in S6 was Lorelai "taking him for granted"; it was that he was dishonest about having a daughter and then obnoxiously reluctant to allow Lorelai into that part of his life, in addition to seeming about as enthusiastic about going through with their wedding as one would be for a scheduled execution. (To be fair, at various times Lorelai seemed horrified by the upcoming nuptials as well.) And IMO there was already way too much juvenile idiocy involving jealousy throughout the entire series: Lorelai could be immature, but if she really needed yet more of that Junior High-ish nonsense to "pique her interest" in her own fiance (even if he was a former one by then), to me that's a sign of a ridiculously bad relationship. 

 

While you make an excellent point re. Luke's choice of clothes possibly being a reflection of low self-esteem (I'm not sure I agree, but it's very interesting!), many might contend that Luke's constant anger, temper tantrums, negativity, bitterness, jealousy, and lack of ability to communicate like a candid and mature adult were far more problematic issues than his wardrobe. I'm guessing that the writers didn't give Luke a significant other in S7 to send the message that he really needed to work on himself and his own various issues before he was ready for a relationship. How successfully they did or didn't execute that plan is up for debate :) 

[junienmomo]

ASF, I hope you don't think that I was trying to say that the Lorelai taking Luke for granted was the biggest problem in S6, I don't believe that. I don't yet feel I understand S6 well enough to decide what the biggest problems between those two were. I think Lorelai took him for granted all seasons, it wasn't seen as a problem to her, nor did he seem to mind too much either. It was kind of a weird friends relationship too, quite different from Lorelai/Sookie.

 

I think his choice of attire was a choice of convenience, not low self-esteem. I conjecture that, by choosing this wardrobe, he was more able to control who he approaches romantically. Clearly it was also comfortable, maybe I'm overthinking this, he is a man, after all. LOL

Do you think he suffered from low self-esteem? I don't see it, but Luke's value system is another discussion altogether.

 

You are right, Lorelai not only saw Luke with Rachel and Nicole, but she encouraged it. IMO the way she encouraged it seemed to me to be giving mixed messages. Luke was clearly picking up on something, because a couple of times during those relationships, he seemed to give her some influence on his decisions with those women.

What I meant by "not too interested" was he had only 2 relationships over the 5 years.  He states that it's because he goes with his gut and doesn't date.

 

You've given me a lot to think about, and that's fun, thanks. I may have to dig into the Luke persona more deeply. Or maybe a pro-con list for each of them identifying their positive and negative traits.

[AlinaRay]

I'm not sure where this fits in as far as UO opinions go...but I really don't care for Lane as a character and I struggle to really find her point to the series. Don't get me wrong, she has some good moments, and I love Mama Kim, but Lane has always been kind of boring and one-note. She and Rory claim they're best friends, but apart from one or two instances, they don't really seem to connect. Lane is busy with her music and Rory is busy with Chilton and Yale. While they make some token efforts to support each other throughout the years, they don't seem like the kind of friends that will drop everything to be there for the other. As far as Rory goes, with Paris and the Chilton girls and then Logan and that crew, it seems like Lane wasn't really needed to further her story.

 

It seems that Lane has more of a connection with Lorelai, which is understandable, because they are both rebelling against their upbringing. Though Lane is trying to be respectful about it whereas Lorelai is out and out refusing to even try to understand her parent's point of view. Still, though Lorelai acts as a place of refuge for Lane, I'm not sure she ever made the connection between herself and Lane.

I'm not sure where this fits in as far as UO opinions go...but I really don't care for Lane as a character and I struggle to really find her point to the series. Don't get me wrong, she has some good moments, and I love Mama Kim, but Lane has always been kind of boring and one-note. She and Rory claim they're best friends, but apart from one or two instances, they don't really seem to connect. Lane is busy with her music and Rory is busy with Chilton and Yale. While they make some token efforts to support each other throughout the years, they don't seem like the kind of friends that will drop everything to be there for the other. As far as Rory goes, with Paris and the Chilton girls and then Logan and that crew, it seems like Lane wasn't really needed to further her story.

 

It seems that Lane has more of a connection with Lorelai, which is understandable, because they are both rebelling against their upbringing. Though Lane is trying to be respectful about it whereas Lorelai is out and out refusing to even try to understand her parent's point of view. Still, though Lorelai acts as a place of refuge for Lane, I'm not sure she ever made the connection between herself and Lane.

[txhorns79]

I think you are right in that Lane's purpose on the show diminishes heavily once Rory goes to college.  It probably would have been more logical for Lane to be reduced to a recurring character, as her particular storylines became much more self contained as the show went on.

[junienmomo]

The parallel experience of Mrs. Kim vs Lorelai or Emily was good to maintain. Weird that Lorelai could coach Mrs. Kim to be more relaxed with her daughter, while she couldn't help her own mother to be more relaxed. That's a complexity that only family relationships can bring, I suppose.

[blueray]

I agree in some ways but I actually like Lane as a character. I however, agree that she should have been a recurring character as the series went on. I think as far as their freindship goes it was realistic that they grew apart. Rory makes her way through a privite high school and later Yale. Where as Lane graduates from her small town high school, drops out of college and is working as a waitress while supporting her band dreams. It seems that the few scenes they have together that they are always catching up (in later seasons) and while they call them selves "friends" they are a lot less close then they were before and have little in common.

Edited October 18, 2014 by blueray

[dustylil]

I certainly liked the idea of Rory continuing to have some links to Stars Hollow among her peers as she attended Chilton and then went on to Yale. (I think we were supposed to forget that Dean was a recently arrived big city boy at the start of the series). So having Lane around made sense.

 

Unfortunately, I couldn't abide the character myself. Her consuming fascination with pop culture and rock music - to the exclusion of anything else, as far as I can recall - I found tiresome after a while. And her ongoing disrespect for the beliefs  of her parents bothered me. It was not as if she had no outlet for her own musical interests and teenage pursuits. She was a frequent and welcome guest at the home of Lorelai and Rory, played in a band, took part in after school activities,  appeared to be able to earn and spend her own money, etc.  Yet she continued to bring items  into her home that were offensive if not blasphemous according to the family's religious faith.

 

Had she wommaned up after finishing high school, and decided to support herself while pursuing her musical ambitions, I would have had some respect for her. But she was quite willing to continue to lead a life of deceit  - until she was caught.

[txhorns79]

And her ongoing disrespect for the beliefs  of her parents bothered me. It was not as if she had no outlet for her own musical interests and teenage pursuits. She was a frequent and welcome guest at the home of Lorelai and Rory, played in a band, took part in after school activities,  appeared to be able to earn and spend her own money, etc.Yet she continued to bring items  into her home that were offensive if not blasphemous according to the family's religious faith.

 

This makes me think of an argument made in a recent abortion case in Mississippi, I believe.  The issue was new regulations put into place by the state that would have the effect of closing most, if not all, the remaining clinics in the state.  In court, the state essentially argued that even if the effect of the regulations was to close all the clinics, women could still go to other states to have their needs met.  The Court rejected this argument, noting that a state couldn't just make someone's rights another state's problem, i.e. just saying that Lane could have her needs met by some other family or outlet, doesn't really address the issue with her family.  If Lane was bringing in drugs or having sex with random guys in her house, I would fully agree that she should be called out for that.  However, a teenage girl sneaking music, makeup and funky clothes into her house is par for the course in terms of teenage rebellion.  Lane certainly could have handled things better in terms of her rebelling, but this kind of stuff is pretty small potatoes. 

 

Mind you, I agreed with Mrs. Kim when she told Lane that she didn't make the rules, and could leave if she didn't want to abide by the house rules.  It's her house, so she can run it how she wishes.  I do think a more mature, less rigid parent might have used that situation as an opportunity for a dialogue with their young adult child, but that was not to be. 

Edited October 18, 2014 by txhorns79

[Kohola3]

I know I"m at a table for one,  but I confess I liked Dean until they chose to dumb him down and turn him into a jealous lunatic. I think building that car for Rory was extremely sweet.  

 

And putting up with that horrid exercise he had to perform at the debutante ball won him points as well.  I don't think too many teen boys would don white gloves (and pay to rent a set of tails) without pitching some sort of fit especially since the Grandparents had been so nasty to him and it was their idea.

[dustylil]

Kohola3 I think that should be a table for two concerning Dean.

 

Although I do entirely agree with those who dislike him as time went on. His possessiveness, moodiness, temper - you know, the basic attributes of the majority of  male characters on the show - were increasingly problematic by the first third  of the second season. But until then, I thought he was a pretty good teenage boyfriend - respecting  Lorelai and the house rules, attending both the Chilton dance  and the debutante ball, apologizing for his temper tantrum over Rory not spending enough time with him and handling Richard's belligerence with  grace,

[larapu2000]

This might be the most UO of all time, but here goes:

 

Emily > Lorelai.  My love for Emily is never ending.  She's mean, cruel, manipulative, but if I had to deal with Lorelai for 39 years, I would be kind of a dick, too.  I love it when Emily shows real delight in something, especially in something blue collar.  She's the Gilmore girl I want to see the most.

[JayInChicago]

My newest UO: lorelai should have married that nice school teacher fellow.

;)

[txhorns79]

Emily > Lorelai.  My love for Emily is never ending.  She's mean, cruel, manipulative, but if I had to deal with Lorelai for 39 years, I would be kind of a dick, too.  I love it when Emily shows real delight in something, especially in something blue collar.  She's the Gilmore girl I want to see the most.

 

I like Emily too.  I give Kelly Bishop credit.  Even though Emily can be awful, Kelly made her sympathetic.  And yes, Lorelai can be very tiresome at times.  The endless stream of quips could easily drive a sane person entirely mad. 

[amensisterfriend]

My newest UO: lorelai should have married that nice school teacher fellow.

 

I can totally out-unpopular that one, my friend ;) I think for a variety of reasons that Lorelai should have ended the series contentedly single. I think she and Luke should have decided as early as S5 that they genuinely work better as friends and aren't compatible as a romantic couple. But if the show DID have to pair up Lorelai, I think she had the best romantic chemistry/connection with Christopher and the best compatibility with Digger. I could have bought into her ending up paired with either of those two more than with Luke...but I still really think she should and could have ended the series happily solo :)  

Edited November 6, 2014 by amensisterfriend

[Jfer082887]

I think the series should have ended at 6 but change how things went. Rory gets her life back together after Jess makes her realize it was a mess. There is no April. Luke and Lorelai stay together and she does not get marry Christopher but Luke. Lane and Zach get married but she does not get pregnant, and they go on tour together. Lorelai and Rory's fight is not as long. Rory and Jess get back together since he'd be ok with her Rory traveling for work and Logan is awful. Time fasts forward to skip her senior year so they can show she graduates and gets an internship. Happy endings for all.

When Luke and Lorelai end the series finale together or at least it's implied, I was happy but I feel like the damage was done. Too many bad things happened already.

[scarynikki12]

I rewatched the Mia episode from season 2 today and I finally figured out what was bothering me about it: not the actress or how the character was written, but the conversation with Emily.  That was the perfect time for the show to actually take the extra step necessary to make it clear to Emily how deeply unhappy and depressed Lorelai was when she ran away.  She hadn't wanted to hear it from Lorelai herself the previous year in Emily in Wonderland but a third party who witnessed Lorelai's emotional state in the immediate aftermath of leaving Hartford could have benefitted the character a great deal.  I think the conversation should have included Mia revealing to Emily that she hadn't sent Lorelai home because she'd assumed that she ran from an abusive home.  She'd then reveal that a full year went by before she could get Lorelai to talk about her parents and home life enough to learn that she hadn't been.  It would have been better for both Emily and Richard to hear such a perspective but one would have been better than nothing.

 

That is one of my regrets for the show, that neither Gilmore ever truly understood just how depressed Lorelai was when she ran away.  They always treated it as a childish tantrum that was designed to make them look bad.  They never saw that, despite all the money and what it provided, they had failed to provide Lorelai with love and emotional support.  That she'd grown up feeling like a burden rather than beloved.  That even a little of the affection and devotion they showed Rory would have been enough to keep her from running away.  It's a shame that the Palladinos didn't seem to look upon therapy favorably because their characters really could have used it.

[dustylil]

Very well put. I have never understood those who thought Mia should have sent Lorelai back to Hartford - without knowing a thing about the girl or her circumstances. Even if Mia  had not have been in a position to take her in and give her a job, at the very least  I would have expected her or anyone in that position to refer Lorelai to a church or a shelter - somewhere where she could get her bearings.

Richard and Emily Gilmore were not cruel or vicious people but their daughter was troubled. Personally, I never thought Lorelai was all that much of a rebel or hell raiser - whatever her parents' view of her. She was an excellent student, she socialized with the children of the senior Gilmores' social set,  she didn't appear to use drugs and/or alcohol more than her peers, and she wasn't  promiscuous. Not to be too crass, but if Christopher had  had a low sperm count, she might skated through the rest of her prep school days, gone on to college and then only seen her parents on the holidays ;)