One is the Loneliest Number: Unpopular GG Opinions

[Katy M]

3 minutes ago, ghostwhisperer said:

He's just a rude, obnoxious, dishonest (when was he going to tell Lorelai about April if she hadn't found out after two long months of him keeping her a secret?),

I probably also should have mentioned that I pretty much stopped watching after SEason 4 or maybe half way through season 5.

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

Quote

Basically the only way I can tolerate this show at all is to view it as deliberately comic exaggeration almost to the point of farce and satire

This right here.

The revival took it to a whole new level. 

And WORD on everything you said about the Luke and Lorelai relationship and Luke as a character. He gets away with things that others are eviscerated for. 

[elang4]

I don’t get why people hate Luke. I mean, I get people have their own opinions and I respect that. I just don’t understand it. He probably should have told Lorelai about April sooner but he did try to tell her a few times. And maybe he should have communicated more but I always thought he was a decent guy. He was loyal to all his friends and family, he cared about people’s feelings and he was very dependable. He might have been know as the town’s grump but all the townspeople clearly liked and respected him. I mean, look how many people turned up for Louie’s wake and that was all for Luke.

[FictionLover]

I like Luke’s character. He tried being tougher than he actually was; that’s why Lorelai and Rory loved him and were never intimidated by his gruffness. That said, I do understand why people don’t like the character as well. He’s kind of boring and never really wants to do anything. But he still floats my boat! :)

[Kohola3]

1 hour ago, FictionLover said:

He tried being tougher than he actually was; that’s why Lorelai and Rory loved him and were never intimidated by his gruffness

He was never really mean-spirited and did a lot of nice things but quietly and did not call attention to them.  He went out of his way to find all of those stinky eggs for Kirk and let him take the credit.  No reason for that other than just being a nice buy.  Floats my boat as well although in real life I'd probably avoid him to some extent.  But not entirely.

[elang4]

Just now, Kohola3 said:

He was never really mean-spirited and did a lot of nice things but quietly and did not call attention to them.  He went out of his way to find all of those stinky eggs for Kirk and let him take the credit.  No reason for that other than just being a nice buy.  Floats my boat as well although in real life I'd probably avoid him to some extent.  But not entirely.

I agree. He complained about Kirk all the time but deep down, you could tell he cared about him. Him finding the last 12 eggs for him was one of my fave all time scenes of GG. It was so sweet of him and he got nothing out of doing it. And even with Taylor, in the revival, he finally gave in to one of his schemes. He did a lot for a lot of people and never expected anything in return and that’s what I loved about him. Even with Lorelai! Sure he loved her but he didn’t do all the things he did for her because he was hoping she would realise and go out with him. He did it because he cared about her and was a good friend. And I loved his relationship with Lane and Zach. He really looked out for them. ?

[Kohola3]

And he was the one that Rory felt comfortable going to when she was on the outs with her mother.  She knew Luke would understand about the accident and that he wouldn't try and intervene (at least to her face) when she dropped out of school.

[elang4]

2 minutes ago, Kohola3 said:

And he was the one that Rory felt comfortable going to when she was on the outs with her mother.  She knew Luke would understand about the accident and that he wouldn't try and intervene (at least to her face) when she dropped out of school.

I agree! She could have gone to Lane or Sookie but she went to Luke. That says something.

[Katy M]

My take on Luke is that he doesn't put up with a lot of foolishness, but if you really need someone, he's the first one there.  And that's definitely not a bad thing.  

[elang4]

5 minutes ago, Katy M said:

My take on Luke is that he doesn't put up with a lot of foolishness, but if you really need someone, he's the first one there.  And that's definitely not a bad thing.  

I agree. He was the only one to call Lorelai out on her behaviour and say what we were all thinking and he was the only one she would actually listen to. But if she ever needed him, he was there even if they had had a fight just before. 

[FictionLover]

15 hours ago, Kohola3 said:

He was never really mean-spirited and did a lot of nice things but quietly and did not call attention to them.  He went out of his way to find all of those stinky eggs for Kirk and let him take the credit.  No reason for that other than just being a nice buy.  Floats my boat as well although in real life I'd probably avoid him to some extent.  But not entirely.

I agree, except maybe avoid him entirely! He was so weird during his band stuff, that didn’t float my boat! I’ve heard him contradict himself in interviews; he’s just always acting and saying what he thinks the current audience  wants to hear. Maybe other actors do that, I don’t know, but I know he did. I think he’s a strange dude; I had to quit following him on Twitter. I can see why Lauren Graham wasn’t close to him, she’s a class act!

Edited January 23, 2018 by FictionLover

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Katy M said:

My take on Luke is that he doesn't put up with a lot of foolishness, but if you really need someone, he's the first one there.  And that's definitely not a bad thing.  

See also “his entire relationship with Liz.”

[nclpllm]

I don't hate Luke, but I don't adore him either, the way many do. I'm not interested in character analysis on him, or his family history. 

I love Jason, a lot. To a strange degree. Chris Eigeman is just great. I bought 5 movies he was in back in the 90's- the reason there was a Digger Stiles, to my estimation. I like his voice and the way he talks. He was neurotic, but basically a good guy. 

I don't ship him with Lorelai (partly because I don't ship characters I like with Gilmore girls). For all their being alike, I don't think they would have lasted long if they weren't dating on the down low. Lorelai wouldn't be interested in going with him to functions or hanging out with her parents. I think they worked because they weren't incorporated into each other's lives, which worked for Lorelai, the queen of compartmentalization. 

Edited January 29, 2018 by nclpllm

[slf]

I think the show started going downhill hard in the fourth season. The revival doesn't exist to me. The Palladinos really struck gold with this premise but it's like they internalized all the criticisms of Lorelai but Rory especially being Mary Sues and decided to turn their flaws up to 11. Combine that with the flanderization of all the supporting characters and I can only bare to watch the occasional episode after season three.

I dislike Logan and I don't know why he gets so much slack. Time has softened my views of Dean, Tristan, and Jess, (all with flaws, some deeply flawed, but at least they were just dumb young boys who grew up) but the revival confirmed that Logan was just a rich douchebag and a symptom of Rory's poor treatment from the writers. Honestly, that relationship at times felt like a punishment,for Rory and the viewers.

Edited February 9, 2018 by slf

[clack]

I know that the whole Tristan arc never got played out to the end because the actor got another gig, but I like that arc's accidentally truncated, abrupt structure. It feels true to life in a way that drama almost never touches on.

Sometimes it seems that the Fates conspire to continually throw you together with a person, and it all seems to be building towards something, and then suddenly it's ... never mind. You never see them again. In real life, sometimes situations are all set-up and no pay-off.

What made Tristan a more interesting chararacter than smug Logan is that Tristan knew that he, Tristan, was a dick. There was an element of self-loathing involved. Rory was his life-line, he felt, to a better self.

Of course, any actual romantic relationship would have been disastrous. Rory could not have saved Tristan from himself, so Rory dodged a bullet there.

[Taryn74]

2 hours ago, clack said:

What made Tristan a more interesting chararacter than smug Logan is that Tristan knew that he, Tristan, was a dick. There was an element of self-loathing involved.

I always felt kind of sorry for Tristan in a way I never did for Logan.  I don't know if it was just because he was so much younger when we knew him, or if it was the self-loathing thing you mentioned, but yeah.  Tristan had plenty of jerky moments but I never felt that he, himself, was a jerk.  And he wasn't nearly as entitled as Logan was.  (Although we got no indication his family was the very wealthy elite that the Huntzbergers were.)

[elang4]

7 minutes ago, Taryn74 said:

I always felt kind of sorry for Tristan in a way I never did for Logan.  I don't know if it was just because he was so much younger when we knew him, or if it was the self-loathing thing you mentioned, but yeah.  Tristan had plenty of jerky moments but I never felt that he, himself, was a jerk.  And he wasn't nearly as entitled as Logan was.  (Although we got no indication his family was the very wealthy elite that the Huntzbergers were.)

I agree. He did some jerky things but I always believe deep down, he was a good guy. I mean he was friends with Paris since kindergarten and she liked him a lot. I know she had a crush on him but when Rory actually questioned her on why she liked him, she had answers to that. I think Paris could relate to him because it seemed like he had a rubbish family life as well. I think he genuinely liked Rory and although he may have gone about things the wrong way with her, he did apologise in the end and I believed his apology. I always wish they would have given them a chance.

[Taryn74]

8 minutes ago, elang4 said:

I think he genuinely liked Rory and although he may have gone about things the wrong way with her, he did apologise in the end and I believed his apology. I always wish they would have given them a chance.

Agreed.  I may be a 44 year old woman with three kids who's been married since the dinosaurs roamed, but "Take care of yourself . . . Mary" still manages to give me flutters.

[elang4]

5 minutes ago, Taryn74 said:

Agreed.  I may be a 44 year old woman with three kids who's been married since the dinosaurs roamed, but "Take care of yourself . . . Mary" still manages to give me flutters.

And I think Rory did have a soft spot for him near the end. That smile when he said goodbye to her and called her Mary again proves that. At the beginning she was so into Dean that she didn’t really give him a chance but I think as time progressed, she actually started to thaw towards him.

[tarotx]

Rory asked Tristan not to call her Mary and he refused to stop. It also had a sexual labeling connotation.

Imo Tristan did not have self-loathing because of the way he treated people. He had a potential of going in the direction of his childhood sucked so he had reasons to be a jerk, Like Jess, but it never really came to fruition since the CMM got Dawson's Creek.

[Guest]

9 hours ago, elang4 said:

I agree. He did some jerky things but I always believe deep down, he was a good guy. I mean he was friends with Paris since kindergarten and she liked him a lot. I know she had a crush on him but when Rory actually questioned her on why she liked him, she had answers to that. I think Paris could relate to him because it seemed like he had a rubbish family life as well. I think he genuinely liked Rory and although he may have gone about things the wrong way with her, he did apologise in the end and I believed his apology. I always wish they would have given them a chance.

I don’t think we had indications he had a troubled Home life; he seemed to be the trouble. I never saw any redeeming qualities in him. Even Paris being friends with him- she was a horrible human being at that point of the series- a bully, a mean girl, a liar when things stopped her from getting what she wanted, etc. So to me, her endorsement of him means nothing. Tristan harassed and mistreated Rory in much of Season 1, and I personally saw nothing charming about giving her a nickname based on what he assumed about her sex life. Pretty gross to me how he made an assumption (yes, it was true, but that’s irrelevant), loudly and repeatedly declared it in front of others, and didn’t stop despite being asked to repeatedly.

I know I’m one of the bigger Logan defenders in here, but I really don’t see how he gets compared favorably to a guy who supported Rory emotionally when she needed it, with work on the paper when she was trying to get it out, financially, and overall was a good boyfriend to her.

[elang4]

1 hour ago, deaja said:

I don’t think we had indications he had a troubled Home life; he seemed to be the trouble. I never saw any redeeming qualities in him. Even Paris being friends with him- she was a horrible human being at that point of the series- a bully, a mean girl, a liar when things stopped her from getting what she wanted, etc. So to me, her endorsement of him means nothing. Tristan harassed and mistreated Rory in much of Season 1, and I personally saw nothing charming about giving her a nickname based on what he assumed about her sex life. Pretty gross to me how he made an assumption (yes, it was true, but that’s irrelevant), loudly and repeatedly declared it in front of others, and didn’t stop despite being asked to repeatedly.

I know I’m one of the bigger Logan defenders in here, but I really don’t see how he gets compared favorably to a guy who supported Rory emotionally when she needed it, with work on the paper when she was trying to get it out, financially, and overall was a good boyfriend to her.

I get he’s not everyone’s taste but I do believe he didn’t have a great family life. Paris even told Rory that after the Bangles concert and how things with his parents aren’t good and how she and he had that in common. 

[andromeda331]

3 hours ago, elang4 said:

I get he’s not everyone’s taste but I do believe he didn’t have a great family life. Paris even told Rory that after the Bangles concert and how things with his parents aren’t good and how she and he had that in common. 

I do think Paris was telling the truth in that moment. She wasn't being a bitch and was kind of having a good time. I don't think Paris would have mentioned her own home life being not so good when she's being mean or a bitch if only because she would think Rory would use that against her. Like when Paris freaked out when Rory knew she brought her cousin to the dance. If she was being a bitch it would be more like the earlier scene in the dance episode when Rory's buying tickets and Paris couldn't believe Rory turned down Tristian.  

[Guest]

It’s not that I think Paris was lying as much as perception is so variable. Paris likely only heard Tristan’s side of things. And since Tristan seemed like a spoiled brat, I can easily see him whining and complaining about things he caused. Living with teenage Tristan would likely be a nightmare, and we know his parents had finally had enough of his shenanigans and sent him away.

[Kohola3]

Quote

I get he’s not everyone’s taste but I do believe he didn’t have a great family life. Paris even told Rory that after the Bangles concert and how things with his parents aren’t good and how she and he had that in common. 

What teenager doesn't say that? 

Just another Poor Little Rich Boy like Logan.  They were both insufferable, bitching and moaning about their parents whilst taking full advantage of all their money had to offer including lawyers to pay their way out of scrapes.

[elang4]

17 minutes ago, Kohola3 said:

What teenager doesn't say that? 

Just another Poor Little Rich Boy like Logan.  They were both insufferable, bitching and moaning about their parents whilst taking full advantage of all their money had to offer including lawyers to pay their way out of scrapes.

To be fair, I don’t actually think Tristan cared about being part of that world. Yeah he was a jerk at times but I think that was probably because he wasn’t getting any attention at home. We got to see the softer side of Tristan at times as well like at Madeline’s party and when he said goodbye to Rory.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, elang4 said:

To be fair, I don’t actually think Tristan cared about being part of that world. Yeah he was a jerk at times but I think that was probably because he wasn’t getting any attention at home. We got to see the softer side of Tristan at times as well like at Madeline’s party and when he said goodbye to Rory.

To me, we basically saw his softer side the two times we saw him see that actions have consequences. In other words, typical spoiled teenager. But most spoiled teens don’t commit felonies.

I know this is unpopular, but I’m in the right thread for it!

[elang4]

9 minutes ago, deaja said:

To me, we basically saw his softer side the two times we saw him see that actions have consequences. In other words, typical spoiled teenager. But most spoiled teens don’t commit felonies.

I know this is unpopular, but I’m in the right thread for it!

No, I respect your opinion. I know not everyone liked Tristan. I just believe that deep down he was a good guy. He just needed to grow up a bit. 

[clack]

When the actor prematurely left, Tristan's narrative function was split and taken over by two new characters : Tristan's rebellious, troubled side by Jess, and his arrogant rich boy side by Logan.

The difference : Logan had some innate decency, and Jess, too, was at heart a decent guy, once he grew up a bit and removed that chip from his shoulder. Tristan, on the other hand, was too damaged to ever become good boyfriend material.

What made Tristan an appealing character at times was the sense you got that, with Rory, he was "acting out" his damage, and beneath his dick-ish behavior there was a vulnerability and a yearning.

[elang4]

1 minute ago, clack said:

When the actor prematurely left, Tristan's narrative function was split and taken over by two new characters : Tristan's rebellious, troubled side by Jess, and his arrogant rich boy side by Logan.

The difference : Logan had some innate decency, and Jess, too, was at heart a decent guy, once he grew up a bit and removed that chip from his shoulder. Tristan, on the other hand, was too damaged to ever become good boyfriend material.

What made Tristan an appealing character at times was the sense you got that, with Rory, he was "acting out" his damage, and beneath his dick-ish behavior there was a vulnerability and a yearning.

What made him too damaged?? Logan was just like him at the beginning. I believe that if Tristan grew up a bit, he’d be a decent guy like Logan was at the end.

[andromeda331]

3 minutes ago, elang4 said:

What made him too damaged?? Logan was just like him at the beginning. I believe that if Tristan grew up a bit, he’d be a decent guy like Logan was at the end.

I wonder if we would have learned that or if his family really was not so good like Paris said if he stayed longer. Or maybe he was just a jerk. He was nice to Rory at times. A couple times. I did like those scenes. But did he really like Rory or was it because she wasn't into him and not afraid to call him on his crap?  Or to recognize he was full of crap. I'm really not sure. I don't mind really mind him being sent off to military school. Maybe its harsh but so few people on the show actually had real consequences to their actions.    

[Guest]

I felt Tristan’s role was more to show us about Rory, her attraction to the “bad boys,” and trying to navigate a new world she found herself in. Not as much for him being a character on his own.

[iknowyouknow]

Hi everyone, I've been reading these threads for a few days and have felt self-conscious about chiming in because I don't know the show as well as you all do and because I have a love/hate relationship with it, with a recent emphasis on the latter! Who knew that a discussion about Tristan, of all characters, would inspire me to join the fray? 

I'm in the group who doesn't like either but prefers Tristan to Logan, and your perceptive posts have helped me figure out why. I just like Rory better around Tristan than I do around Logan. Around Tristan, she's sharp, feisty, witty, vibrant, assertive - by Rory's standards :) Around Logan, she's like this faded, diluted, vapid version of her best self. She's wimpy, easily (mis)led, becomes snobby, arrogant and entitled, willfully clueless, and no longer stands up for or even appears to notice things that the original Rory would have quietly but snarkily called attention to. The gross Colin/"milkmaid" thing is a very minor example but one that always stays with me. (The writers were all "let's not even give her a name, because reminding us of how the gross Life and Death Brigade objectify everyone and use them for their convenience is relatably hilarious and endearing, no?) Can you even imagine the Rory from season 1 or even season 2 or season 3 simpering along and then whining "Colin, you forgot "your" milkmaid?" without showing any signs of thinking this whole thing was a little weird and gross?  Some say this kind of thing is indicative of how Logan "broadened her horizons" but to me being part of that world just allowed Rory to indulge the worst aspects of her character. She became weaker and more entitled, less ethical and less self-aware. (I know that self-awareness is not a characteristic we associate with the Gilmores on even their best of days, but early Rory was, imo, far more willing to admit to mistakes and at least claim to want to improve than the Rory who became a Life and Death Brigade groupie.)

I don't blame Logan for this - Smug McSmirkerson is who he is, and he certainly never forced Rory to change - but I do agree with folks who said that being around some people naturally brings out our better or worse selves, and the fact remains that I just don't like who Rory is while she's involved with Logan and his friends. When interacting with Tristan, Rory was still Rory, the character I once loved and identified with.  When she was with Logan, she was a character I neither recognized nor liked.

I realize the problem with trying to directly compare the show's two spoiled, hedonistic, cocky, hard partying blond rich boys is Rory didn't actually date Tristan - but to me that's almost the point? Rory wouldn't have dated Tristan because that's not who Rory was back then. Tristan stood for a certain lifestyle and set of values that the original Rory wouldn't have embraced. This isn't a "rich people are all bad, mmmkay?" thing, because I don't believe that on any level, though based on the writing I wonder if perhaps ASP does. I'm talking about a certain smug, arrogant, thoughtless entitlement.  By the time she met Logan, the Rory who would have once been repelled by Logan's choices was now intrigued by them, and the more she allowed herself to get sucked into his world, the more those values became her own. (Because Rory is kind of a pathetically weak, easily influenced chameleon, but that's for another post.)

So anyway, I loathe Logan and the LDB, but I also agree that they were as much a symptom of how Rory had changed than the cause.

While I'm confessing -

I only like LL when I ignore about 98% of how their relationship was actually written.

The more I watch, the fewer Gilmore Girls characters I like. Basically this show has clever dialogue and some very heartwarming moments and not much else. Sometimes that's enough, but other times I get so frustrated by how much of its potential this show ended up squandering.

Jess was a jerk as a teen, but the sad truth is that he's now way too good for Rory.

I keep seeing people lament how out of character Rory and Logan were in the revival, but sadly they were pretty much consistent with how I always saw them.

There's a lot of talk about Lorelai wasn't a great mother. I actually think she was, all things considered. Very imperfect, but still great overall. And to me it's Rory who actually isn't a great daughter to Lorelai, especially later on. Rory consistently allows for and even fuels the conflicts between Lorelai and her parents if it means Rory can remain "the good one" who no one blames and everyone dotes on. (Think of all the times she could have spoken up but chooses not to, letting Lorelai play the bad guy instead even when things weren't actually Lorelai's fault or when Lorelai was just speaking on Rory's behalf.) And Lorelai makes extremely few requests of Rory, but Rory usually can't even bring herself to follow those out of respect for her mom. For example, Lorelai will ask Rory not to bring up money to Emily and Richard...so in the next scene, guess who's bringing up money to Emily and Richard without any compunction? Or Lorelai will dare to suggest that maybe, just maybe, Rory shouldn't have sex with another woman's husband, and Rory somehow gets angry at Lorelai for "ruining this for her" (LOL!), not just lashing out at an emotional moment but remaining cold to Lorelai for a month or two while taking advantage of Emily's generosity as they gallivant around Europe. If I didn't have to rush out the door, I could name at least 10 more examples!

I get why people think Lorelai is self-centered and thoughtless -because she is- but I think Rory has even worse/less character when it comes down to it. I know that's unpopular, but I'm in the right place! 

Edited February 25, 2018 by iknowyouknow

[elang4]

One thing I liked about Rory and Tristan was their banter. It kind of reminded me of Luke and Lorelai’s early days. And I agree that Rory stayed herself around Tristan whereas she totally changed for Logan.

[clack]

Logan's character flaws showed the effects on piling on too many expectations on a child. Jess was a neglected child, and that too shows up in his behavior.

As for Tristan, if in real life I saw a teenager acting as he does, I'd assume that he had been an abused child. I'm not sure that the show meant to imply childhood emotional (at least) abuse, but we did get a hint of that when Tristan was bundled off to military school. My impression is that Tristan's father inflicted harsh discipline and bullying behavior on Tristan when Tristan was a child.

Jess and Tristan, unlike Logan, were in pain. As for Marty, Rory's other quasi-love interest, I get the sense that though he may have been briefly bullied in high school, he came from a loving family, and was more emotionally healthy than Jess, Tristan, and maybe even Logan.

[elang4]

7 minutes ago, clack said:

Logan's character flaws showed the effects on piling on too many expectations on a child. Jess was a neglected child, and that too shows up in his behavior.

As for Tristan, if in real life I saw a teenager acting as he does, I'd assume that he had been an abused child. I'm not sure that the show meant to imply childhood emotional (at least) abuse, but we did get a hint of that when Tristan was bundled off to military school. My impression is that Tristan's father inflicted harsh discipline and bullying behavior on Tristan when Tristan was a child.

Jess and Tristan, unlike Logan, were in pain. As for Marty, Rory's other quasi-love interest, I get the sense that though he may have been briefly bullied in high school, he came from a loving family, and was more emotionally healthy than Jess, Tristan, and maybe even Logan.

I think you’ve got it spot on. I always thought that if Tristan and Jess had ever met, they’d be good friends. It’s a shame they never explored that as Tristan was actually still around for a bit when Jess was there.

[Taryn74]

9 hours ago, deaja said:

I know I’m one of the bigger Logan defenders in here, but I really don’t see how he gets compared favorably to a guy who supported Rory emotionally when she needed it, with work on the paper when she was trying to get it out, financially, and overall was a good boyfriend to her.

I actually came to like Logan quite a bit, especially in S7.  That doesn't always come out in my posts LOL.

(Revival!Logan on the other hand.....let's not talk about that.)

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Taryn74 said:

 

(Revival!Logan on the other hand.....let's not talk about that.)

Yes. Because the amount of profanity that generates in my head is bad. ;)

[FictionLover]

55 minutes ago, iknowyouknow said:

Hi everyone, I've been reading these threads for a few days and have felt self-conscious about chiming in because I don't know the show as well as you all do and because I have a love/hate relationship with it, with a recent emphasis on the latter! Who knew that a discussion about Tristan, of all characters, would inspire me to join the fray? 

I'm in the group who doesn't like either but prefers Tristan to Logan, and your perceptive posts have helped me figure out why. I just like Rory better around Tristan than I do around Logan. Around Tristan, she's sharp, feisty, witty, vibrant, assertive - by Rory's standards :) Around Logan, she's like this faded, diluted, vapid version of her best self. She's wimpy, easily (mis)led, becomes snobby, arrogant and entitled, willfully clueless, and no longer stands up for or even appears to notice things that the original Rory would have quietly but snarkily called attention to. The gross Colin/"milkmaid" thing is a very minor example but one that always stays with me. (The writers were all "let's not even give her a name, because reminding us of how the gross Life and Death Brigade objectify everyone and use them for their convenience is relatably hilarious and endearing, no?) Can you even imagine the Rory from season 1 or even season 2 or season 3 simpering along and then whining "Colin, you forgot "your" milkmaid?" without showing any signs of thinking this whole thing was a little weird and gross?  Some say this kind of thing is indicative of how Logan "broadened her horizons" but to me being part of that world just allowed Rory to indulge the worst aspects of her character. She became weaker and more entitled, less ethical and less self-aware. (I know that self-awareness is not a characteristic we associate with the Gilmores on even their best of days, but early Rory was, imo, far more willing to admit to mistakes and at least claim to want to improve than the Rory who became a Life and Death Brigade groupie.)

I don't blame Logan for this - Smug McSmirkerson is who he is, and he certainly never forced Rory to change - but I do agree with folks who said that being around some people naturally brings out our better or worse selves, and the fact remains that I just don't like who Rory is while she's involved with Logan and his friends. When interacting with Tristan, Rory was still Rory, the character I once loved and identified with.  When she was with Logan, she was a character I neither recognized nor liked.

I realize the problem with trying to directly compare the show's two spoiled, hedonistic, cocky, hard partying blond rich boys is Rory didn't actually date Tristan - but to me that's almost the point? Rory wouldn't have dated Tristan because that's not who Rory was back then. Tristan stood for a certain lifestyle and set of values that the original Rory wouldn't have embraced. This isn't a "rich people are all bad, mmmkay?" thing, because I don't believe that on any level, though based on the writing I wonder if perhaps ASP does. I'm talking about a certain smug, arrogant, thoughtless entitlement.  By the time she met Logan, the Rory who would have once been repelled by Logan's choices was now intrigued by them, and the more she allowed herself to get sucked into his world, the more those values became her own. (Because Rory is kind of a pathetically weak, easily influenced chameleon, but that's for another post.)

So anyway, I loathe Logan and the LDB, but I also agree that they were as much a symptom of how Rory had changed than the cause.

While I'm confessing -

I only like LL when I ignore about 98% of how their relationship was actually written.

The more I watch, the fewer Gilmore Girls characters I like. Basically this show has clever dialogue and some very heartwarming moments and not much else. Sometimes that's enough, but other times I get so frustrated by how much of its potential this show ended up squandering.

Jess was a jerk as a teen, but the sad truth is that he's now way too good for Rory.

I keep seeing people lament how out of character Rory and Logan were in the revival, but sadly they were pretty much consistent with how I always saw them.

There's a lot of talk about Lorelai wasn't a great mother. I actually think she was, all things considered. Very imperfect, but still great overall. And to me it's Rory who actually isn't a great daughter to Lorelai, especially later on. Rory consistently allows for and even fuels the conflicts between Lorelai and her parents if it means Rory can remain "the good one" who no one blames and everyone dotes on. (Think of all the times she could have spoken up but chooses not to, letting Lorelai play the bad guy instead even when things weren't actually Lorelai's fault or when Lorelai was just speaking on Rory's behalf.) And Lorelai makes extremely few requests of Rory, but Rory usually can't even bring herself to follow those out of respect for her mom. For example, Lorelai will ask Rory not to bring up money to Emily and Richard...so in the next scene, guess who's bringing up money to Emily and Richard without any compunction? Or Lorelai will dare to suggest that maybe, just maybe, Rory shouldn't have sex with another woman's husband, and Rory somehow gets angry at Lorelai for "ruining this for her" (LOL!), not just lashing out at an emotional moment but remaining cold to Lorelai for a month or two while taking advantage of Emily's generosity as they gallivant around Europe. If I didn't have to rush out the door, I could name at least 10 more examples!

I get why people think Lorelai is self-centered and thoughtless -because she is- but I think Rory has even worse/less character when it comes down to it. I know that's unpopular, but I'm in the right place! 

I agree about the Lorelai/Rory relationship. When I watched it the first time I remember thinking that. Lorelai would say they were best friends and I thought, I don’t see it. Rory would throw her under the bus in a heartbeat to save her own hide.  Just like when Lorelai stayed from FND to pack her up for college. Rory just said she had things to do and Emily got mad, she never clarified it.   

[elang4]

6 minutes ago, Taryn74 said:

I actually came to like Logan quite a bit, especially in S7.  That doesn't always come out in my posts LOL.

(Revival!Logan on the other hand.....let's not talk about that.)

I liked Logan too in season 7. I just always had a soft spot for Tristan as well. I just don’t understand why Tristan is the devil although Logan at the beginning was exactly like Tristan.

2 minutes ago, FictionLover said:

I agree about the Lorelai/Rory relationship. When I watched it the first time I remember thinking that. Lorelai would say they were best friends and I thought, I don’t see it. Rory would throw her under the bus in a heartbeat to save her own hide.  Just like when Lorelai stayed from FND to pack her up for college. Rory just said she had things to do and Emily got mad, she never clarified it.   

Yeah that annoyed me as well. But to be fair, even if Rory had explained the situation, I’m sure Emily would still find something to be angry at Lorelai for. 

[Guest]

25 minutes ago, elang4 said:

I liked Logan too in season 7. I just always had a soft spot for Tristan as well. I just don’t understand why Tristan is the devil although Logan at the beginning was exactly like Tristan.

27 minutes ago, FictionLover said:

Maybe this is the key. Logan grew and changed and we saw more sides to him. The last we saw of Tristan, he was complaining about being punished by his dad when he could have easily gone to prison instead. I don’t see any indication that his dad/parents were overly harsh there or in any way abusive. Their son had committed a very serious crime. Maybe if the Huntzbergers had taken Logan’s behavior seriously as a teen, he wouldn’t have let Rory talk him into stealing a yacht in college.

[elang4]

6 minutes ago, deaja said:

Maybe this is the key. Logan grew and changed and we saw more sides to him. The last we saw of Tristan, he was complaining about being punished by his dad when he could have easily gone to prison instead. I don’t see any indication that his dad/parents were overly harsh there or in any way abusive. Their son had committed a very serious crime. Maybe if the Huntzbergers had taken Logan’s behavior seriously as a teen, he wouldn’t have let Rory talk him into stealing a yacht in college.

Yeah I guess because we didn’t get to see Tristan after military school, everyone just judges him on his past behaviour. I always have it in my mind that military school really made him grow up and mature. It’s a shame we didn’t get to see that.

[iknowyouknow]

For those who only like Logan in season 7, where he was kind of a romantic sap and more stable, it’s worth noting that that isn’t ASP’s Logan. That’s not the character she created. And the Logan we met again in the revival was once again original Logan, the smug, selfish, smarmy cad. 

[clack]

A key to the difference in character between Logan and Tristan : Logan challenged Rory in a way meant to intrigue her. Tristan challenged her in a way that he knew would repel her. That's why I believe Tristan was self-loathing. He felt, maybe only half-consciously, that he wasn't worthy of her.

[Anela]

I just wanted to say that it's nice to see so many posts here again. :) I thought everyone had moved to Facebook. 

[Kohola3]

Quote

I just wanted to say that it's nice to see so many posts here again. :) I thought everyone had moved to Facebook. 

Maybe this sounds "uppity" but I have always found the comments on PTV (and formerly TWoP) much more intelligent, thoughtful, and articulate than those on FB.  

[Taryn74]

3 hours ago, deaja said:

The last we saw of Tristan, he was complaining about being punished by his dad when he could have easily gone to prison instead.

I don't know, I don't really remember him complaining?  IMO it seemed like he understood he had crossed a line and military school was a just punishment for what he had done.  Rory was trying to find ways to explain away what he had done but he wouldn't have any of it.  ("You could say you were going through something."  "I was, I was going through his safe.")  Also, he didn't have to show up at the Shakespeare thing and explain why he couldn't participate.

[elang4]

1 minute ago, Taryn74 said:

I don't know, I don't really remember him complaining?  IMO it seemed like he understood he had crossed a line and military school was a just punishment for what he had done.  Rory was trying to find ways to explain away what he had done but he wouldn't have any of it.  ("You could say you were going through something."  "I was, I was going through his safe.")  Also, he didn't have to show up at the Shakespeare thing and explain why he couldn't participate.

I agree. He wasn’t complaining at all. Rory was trying to make excuses for him but he was actually taking responsibility for once. To me, he seemed resigned to his fate. He wasn’t complaining that it was unfair.

[Viqutorious]

What is the Facebook group?

[Guest]

4 hours ago, CheeseBurgh said:

What is the Facebook group?

There is one “Gilmore Girls Community Group” that was linked here before. I joined but I’m not very active. It has 51,000 people and the conversations are harder to follow.