Season 6: Speculation

[Eyes High]

If anything, I would think his season's developments would suggest that's much less likely.  Sansa (and Littlefinger, for that matter) are now firmly in the midst of the "realm is getting invaded by ice zombies" story; it wouldn't seem like going down to attack Casterly Rock would be much of a priority for her.

 

Even in a best case scenario where the Boltons are ousted with no loss of life to Team Stark--yeah, right--the North will be in shambles: winter setting in, zombie invasion, etc. etc. Sansa will be in no position to lead some sort of anti-Lannister crusade. At this point in the show at least, especially given Tyrion's exile and Cersei's downfall, the Lannisters are the least of Sansa's problems.

[SFoster21]

Do you think that Littlefingeright make a play for Cersei? She is willing to play humble to secure his armies. She has been humbled and he has power now.

That seems likelier than his marrying Sansa. He told Cersei her whereabouts last season. Does he plan to protect her or sacrifice her? Kill all the Starks and Winterfell is yours, but Winterfell is buried in snow at this point in the book, so ....

Edited March 23, 2016 by SFoster21

[Maximum Taco]

Do you think that Littlefingeright make a play for Cersei? She is willing to play humble to secure his armies. She has been humbled and he has power now.

That seems likelier than his marrying Sansa. He told Cersei her whereabouts last season. Does he plan to protect her or sacrifice her? Kill all the Starks and Winterfell is yours, but Winterfell is buried in snow at this point in the book, so ....

 

I don't buy it.

 

The whole thing about Littlefinger is control, if he can't control you he kills you (Dontos, Ros, Ned etc.) He thinks he can control Sansa, so she's his favoured target (creepy crush on her cause she looks like Cat notwithstanding.) 

 

There is no way he believes he can control Cersei, he might be able to predict what she'll do, and maybe even manipulate her into certain actions, but in the end Cersei's gonna do Cersei.

 

My opinion on his telling Cersei about Sansa was he's trying to, at least, sow discord between the Lannisters and Boltons, and, at most, incite Cersei into a land war in the North. If he can lure the Lannisters North, he can smash their entire host. The Northern armies would form the anvil at Moat Cailin, and then the hammer would be the Knights of the Vale taking them in the rear.

[SFoster21]

I don't buy it.

The whole thing about Littlefinger is control, if he can't control you he kills you (Dontos, Ros, Ned etc.) He thinks he can control Sansa, so she's his favoured target (creepy crush on her cause she looks like Cat notwithstanding.)

There is no way he believes he can control Cersei, he might be able to predict what she'll do, and maybe even manipulate her into certain actions, but in the end Cersei's gonna do Cersei.

My opinion on his telling Cersei about Sansa was he's trying to, at least, sow discord between the Lannisters and Boltons, and, at most, incite Cersei into a land war in the North. If he can lure the Lannisters North, he can smash their entire host. The Northern armies would form the anvil at Moat Cailin, and then the hammer would be the Knights of the Vale taking them in the rear.

OK. Sounds plausible.

[Hecate7]

Do you think that Littlefingeright make a play for Cersei? She is willing to play humble to secure his armies. She has been humbled and he has power now.

That seems likelier than his marrying Sansa. He told Cersei her whereabouts last season. Does he plan to protect her or sacrifice her? Kill all the Starks and Winterfell is yours, but Winterfell is buried in snow at this point in the book, so ....

 

 

The two are not mutually exclusive. Here's what he's doing: collecting all the kingdoms on the board, one way or another. There are several ways to get a kingdom. You can inherit it, you can have it given to you by the crown, you can marry into it, and you can conquer it. What Littlefinger is doing, is gradually acquiring the kingdoms. He inherited the Fingers. He was awarded Harrenhal by the crown, which elevated him enough to marry Lyssa Arryn. By murdering her he became Lord Protector of the Vale. His niece is the heiress of Winterfell, but he's already gotten Cersei's promise to be made Warden of the North if he can take down the Boltons, and so he might not marry Sansa for her Winterfell claim, but instead might set his sights on Casterly Rock and Cersei Lannister, using Sansa as a marriage pawn to eventually lay claim to the Reach or to Dorne. Once he's Lord Protector of the Vale, Warden of the North, Lord of the Fingers and of Harrenhal, he's certainly going to be good enough for the Dowager Queen Mother, and might be able to persuade Tommen to make the match. He might get Cersei's cooperation by convincing her that marrying him would give her what she needs to take down the Tyrells. Finally, he'd get rid of Cersei and then, as Lord Protector of the Seven Kingdoms, marry Margaery Tyrell and arrange deaths for Loras and Mace, bringing all but Dorne under his control. His final marriage, after either securing an heir from Margaery or somehow manipulating things so that his armies claimed the throne for him, would be to either Sansa, or Danaerys, depending on which of them looked most likely to solidify his hold on things. Danaerys has legal rights but might be infertile. Sansa by then might be of proven fertility.

 

I'm no Baelish or Varys, and so there may be elements of the scheme I can't guess, but one thing is certain. Baelish is playing Risk.

[FemmyV]

Ultimately, I'm hoping / expecting to see Baelish betrayed by Sansa in the end.

[Notwisconsin]

Cerce's cousin is now Regent and Cerce has no power. No one trusts her anymore except the zombie knight....who's a zombie. Except for the trial by combat, she's out of the picture.

[Maximum Taco]

Cerce's cousin is now Regent and Cerce has no power. No one trusts her anymore except the zombie knight....who's a zombie. Except for the trial by combat, she's out of the picture.

 

Her Uncle (who is already dead in the books) is the Regent. And her son, the King, probably still trusts her.

 

All it takes is one little death (again which has already happened in the books), and Cersei will be back to her power mad ways.

[Hecate7]

Her Uncle (who is already dead in the books) is the Regent. And her son, the King, probably still trusts her.

 

All it takes is one little death (again which has already happened in the books), and Cersei will be back to her power mad ways.

 

That's just the sort of thing Baelish is good at arranging. I'm as eager to see him betrayed by Sansa as the next person, but I don't expect her eyes to be opened for quite some time yet.

Edited April 6, 2016 by Hecate7

[CofCinci]

Ultimately, I'm hoping / expecting to see Baelish betrayed by Sansa in the end.

Me too. It's going to be a delicious moment when he realizes the mouse is the cat.

[Maximum Taco]

That's just the sort of thing Baelish is good at arranging. I'm as eager to see him betrayed by Sansa as the next person, but I don't expect her eyes to be opened for quite some time yet.

 

I'm sure Littlefinger will stay alive and probably in power (relatively) until the final season. Then Sansa might exact her revenge.

[ElizaD]

This summary of the Winterfell battle was linked in the WOTW comments of the new trailer and seems pretty credible right now.

 

It's so disappointing that the Umbers side with the Boltons. I hope they're using the Smalljon and not the Greatjon and though it's nice to read that Tormund kills him, his survival makes it a little more likely that Davos is one of Ramsay's victims. I guess poor Osha is going to be flayed as her reward for her kindness to Rickon.

 

So, it's looking like either Rickon dies after being shot by Ramsay or Littlefinger murders him. Why did GRRM bother to create Rickon? Just so he could kill a Stark child, because Ned, Cat and Robb being killed and having their corpses desecrated wasn't enough? The Starks just keep on losing. They've lost their parents and their oldest brother, now they get to carry their youngest brother's corpse into the tainted hellhole where Ramsay raped Sansa.

 

On the bright side, Mace's helmet looks hilarious. I read that the old costume designer left, but everything still looks good in the trailer.

 

The Freys aren't inside a tent in that party shot, could that be from 6x10 after the Blackfish surrenders Riverrun?

[amanda5858]

I've read that summary, and I'm a little confused about when Sansa goes to meet up with the Vale. I'm pretty sure someone spotted her in a picture with Mel from the 4th episode. Also, it looks like Davos and Sansa are together gathering support too. Also, ugh to Ramsay taking out Wun Wun and Rickon before he leaves us.

Edited April 11, 2016 by amanda5858

[ElizaD]

It was also pointed out in the WOTW comments that the shot of Bloodraven could be from the Tower of Joy; there seem to be dead bodies behind him.

[Chris24601]

I've read that summary, and I'm a little confused about when Sansa goes to meet up with the Vale. I'm pretty sure someone spotted her in a picture with Mel from the 4th episode. Also, it looks like Davos and Sansa are together gathering support too. Also, ugh to Ramsay taking out Wun Wun and Rickon before he leaves us.

If Sansa goes to meet up with the Vale forces I can't imagine it happening earlier than Ep 7 or 8 (i.e. just before the Battle of the Bastards). Alternately, the summary is just wrong and Sansa doesn't meet up with the Vale forces and Littlefinger until the battle is over and they're securing Winterfell (where Jon, Sansa and Littlefinger then find that Ramsey survived and is inside and we get our standoff scene).

[SeanC]

Assuming the news about Sansa arriving with Littlefinger is true, my guess would be that at some point Team Stark gets word that ships bearing the Arryn sigil have been spotted along the coast somewhere, and Sansa goes to look for them and bring them to the battle site.  Say, for instance, after the scene with the character we think is Manderly, Davos and/or Jon head toward Winterfell with the Manderly men and Sansa goes toward the White Knife to look into these landing forces.

Edited April 11, 2016 by SeanC

[Bill1978]

 

 

So, it's looking like either Rickon dies after being shot by Ramsay or Littlefinger murders him. Why did GRRM bother to create Rickon? Just so he could kill a Stark child, because Ned, Cat and Robb being killed and having their corpses desecrated wasn't enough? The Starks just keep on losing. They've lost their parents and their oldest brother, now they get to carry their youngest brother's corpse into the tainted hellhole where Ramsay raped Sansa.

 

 

I'm beginning to wonder why GRRM even created the Stark family to be honest. He used the Stark family to introduce us to his world and it is this family that he seems happiest killing off. I understand Ned's death from a plot point of view and to send a message to the reader that nobody is safe, but I think it is wrong for an author to slowly eliminate the main family used to explore the world. I recently rewatched the first ever episode and it is very Stark heavy and maybe I was too naïve at the time but I felt one of the conclusions to the show, based upon the first episode, would be the Stark family reuniting after being separated with maybe one parent not surviving. Sometimes I feel GRRM would have been better having the Lannisters as the 'main' family.

[Avaleigh]

I'm beginning to wonder why GRRM even created the Stark family to be honest. He used the Stark family to introduce us to his world and it is this family that he seems happiest killing off. I understand Ned's death from a plot point of view and to send a message to the reader that nobody is safe, but I think it is wrong for an author to slowly eliminate the main family used to explore the world. I recently rewatched the first ever episode and it is very Stark heavy and maybe I was too naïve at the time but I felt one of the conclusions to the show, based upon the first episode, would be the Stark family reuniting after being separated with maybe one parent not surviving. Sometimes I feel GRRM would have been better having the Lannisters as the 'main' family.

I have no doubt that Starks are going to be in a MUCH better place than the Lannisters at the end of this story after all is said and done. The Lannisters are going down and there'd be the same issue if they'd been the main family from the start. It's not like there won't be multiple surviving Starks if GRRM's original outline is any indication. The Starks are the only Great family who are on an upswing. Everyone else is slowly but surely being taken down. The one difference on the show, I suppose, is House Martell but that's because two of the main characters there were written out. Arya and Sansa are currently in better positions than contemporaries like Shireen, Myrcella, and Margaery. 

 

I still think we're going to get multiple Stark reunions. 

[Audreythe2nd]

I have no doubt that Starks are going to be in a MUCH better place than the Lannisters at the end of this story after all is said and done. The Lannisters are going down and there'd be the same issue if they'd been the main family from the start. It's not like there won't be multiple surviving Starks if GRRM's original outline is any indication. The Starks are the only Great family who are on an upswing.

 

I think everyone is going down and it's only individuals who will remain to rebuild both the Stark and the Lannister lines. Of the Starks, it's likely that at least three out of four of Arya, Bran, Sansa and Jon will be alive, but I'm betting that both Tyrion and Jaime make it through on the Lannister side. 

 

But then again, I don't think the Starks are actually on an upswing either. I pretty much think it's their destiny in this story to keep screwing up, and their constant screw-ups are likely totally essential to the plot with the WW. I feel like the Starks have lost some key piece of information somewhere along the way about their role in the North, and their connection to the WW that's basically going to screw Westeros over in the end. I even wonder if this great battle in the North (involving Sansa and Jon) is going to mess things up even further. 

 

I kind of like it like that though. I don't actually know if I want to hear/see a story about a downtrodden family that rebuilds itself. I'm not sure it's as simple as that.

[GrailKing]

I think everyone is going down and it's only individuals who will remain to rebuild both the Stark and the Lannister lines. Of the Starks, it's likely that at least three out of four of Arya, Bran, Sansa and Jon will be alive, but I'm betting that both Tyrion and Jaime make it through on the Lannister side. 

 

But then again, I don't think the Starks are actually on an upswing either. I pretty much think it's their destiny in this story to keep screwing up, and their constant screw-ups are likely totally essential to the plot with the WW. I feel like the Starks have lost some key piece of information somewhere along the way about their role in the North, and their connection to the WW that's basically going to screw Westeros over in the end. I even wonder if this great battle in the North (involving Sansa and Jon) is going to mess things up even further. 

 

I kind of like it like that though. I don't actually know if I want to hear/see a story about a downtrodden family that rebuilds itself. I'm not sure it's as simple as that.

I think this all goes back to Rickard Stark and beyond, the theory is that the Starks forgot their words which was a part of a pack between the COF, wildings and possibly the others and I think when Ned's father started his southern ambition he unknowingly broke a promise.

My crackpot to this is maybe the Starks every so many years, centuries they may have to wed the NK and possibly it was Lyanna's turn but thousands of years of peace made the Starks forget and the wall went to ruins as they were the keepers of the wall also.

My second crackpot- Sansa is Persephone to the NK Hades and like Ned sacrificing Lady Sansa could sacrifice her happiness for the realm and become the Night Queen 4 months out of the year she will be in the Land of always Winter and the other months as she travels South she brings Spring, Summer and Fall thus bringing balance back into the world .

Absolutely nothing to back this up, except the pomegranate and the pear symbolism.

I think it will get a bit more harsh before they get better, KL will be destroyed the Starks will return, eventually the Stark children will return to their roots as a family respected and feared and they will push back on the Arryn code of honour which their father followed.

Edited April 12, 2016 by GrailKing

[Audreythe2nd]

My crackpot to this is maybe the Starks every so many years, centuries they may have to wed the NK and possibly it was Lyanna's turn but thousands of years of peace made the Starks forget and the wall went to ruins as they were the keepers of the wall also.

 

My second crackpot- Sansa is Persephone to the NK Hades and like Ned sacrificing Lady Sansa could sacrifice her happiness for the realm and become the Night Queen 4 months out of the year she will be in the Land of always Winter and the other months as she travels South she brings Spring, Summer and Fall thus bringing balance back into the world .

Absolutely nothing to back this up, except the pomegranate and the pear symbolism.

 

Oh my god, the part I bolded. I just got legit chills.

 

I am intrigued by your ideas and would like to subscribe to your newsletter. :)

[Chris24601]

So, it's looking like either Rickon dies after being shot by Ramsay or Littlefinger murders him. Why did GRRM bother to create Rickon?

To be fair to GRRM, Rickon's direwolf is named Shaggydog. You couldn't telegraph a more pointless ending to a character if you tried.

[SeanC]

My crackpot to this is maybe the Starks every so many years, centuries they may have to wed the NK and possibly it was Lyanna's turn but thousands of years of peace made the Starks forget and the wall went to ruins as they were the keepers of the wall also.

The Starks didn't even rule the North at the time of the Long Night, so I fail to see how they could also be the keepers of the Wall.  To the extent that the Wall is in disrepair, it's because the Night's Watch's numbers have declined.

[GrailKing]

The Starks didn't even rule the North at the time of the Long Night, so I fail to see how they could also be the keepers of the Wall.  To the extent that the Wall is in disrepair, it's because the Night's Watch's numbers have declined.

The Warden of the North is responsible for the wall, Ned and Benjen talked about changes to it .

The Stark King and Jorum  defeated the NK and wiped all info about him.

Also there was a pack with the children of the forest and the Starks I believe where they helped man defeat the long night .

But I could have my memory combining two stories.

Edited April 12, 2016 by GrailKing

[GrailKing]

Oh my god, the part I bolded. I just got legit chills.

 

I am intrigued by your ideas and would like to subscribe to your newsletter. :)

I don't have one, but thanks, but if you want to follow where I went with this crackpot head over to the pawn to player thread  at westeros.org.

It's HUGE and with these leaks I bet they're buzzing.

To be fair to GRRM, Rickon's direwolf is named Shaggydog. You couldn't telegraph a more pointless ending to a character if you tried.

To be fair I've know a few kids that named their pet Shaggy. LOL

Edited April 12, 2016 by GrailKing

[Jazzy24]

So, it's looking like either Rickon dies after being shot by Ramsay or Littlefinger murders him. Why did GRRM bother to create Rickon? Just so he could kill a Stark child, because Ned, Cat and Robb being killed and having their corpses desecrated wasn't enough? The Starks just keep on losing. They've lost their parents and their oldest brother, now they get to carry their youngest brother's corpse into the tainted hellhole where Ramsay raped Sansa.

Since GRRM hasn't finished the books we can't really put Rickon dying on him yet until he writes it in his books.

Rickon dying is a D&D invention just for shock value IMO. Having the Umbers hand him over to the Boltons is ridiculous because the Umbers nor any other Stark bannermen would ever do that.

D&D is obviously telling their own story that's dark, violent, depressing, nihilistic society, with one note characters with shock moments to keep the viewers interested. This is not the Starks where Littlfinger has to ride in and save them or where Sansa was raped in her family's ancestral home, or where the Starks' own bannermen for 8000 years would just hand over their leige lord to be murdered. This is D&D's story.

[MadMouse]

I mentioned in another topic it looks like Bloodraven is at the TOJ which isnt too surprising but I wonder if he's just going to straight out say Jon is a Targ. Bran asks him why Ned was fighting KGs and he says they were protecting the prince and uses a Targ name like Daeron. Bran says Rhaegar didn't have son named that and BR says you know him as Jon.

[ElizaD]

The Starks are far worse off than when the story started and will be even after Ramsay is dead since they've lost so much that can never be regained. They have made no positive gains, only attempts to stop the massive hemorrhaging their family and power have already suffered. That's why I think it's such a shame that GRRM doesn't do romance: it could offer some real hope for the future and show that the characters are still capable of finding new people to love and establish their own families with, but without romance and genuine gains the focus is on dead parents and siblings, failures and hopelessness. Arya and Bran will never have reunions with Rickon; Jon and Sansa will return home only to see him die, so there will be nothing to celebrate in 6x10: they'll have failed even in victory. It's not guaranteed that the Lannisters will be worse off either: Tyrion is set to be Dany's advisor, the Rock is still safe from the kind of devastation Winterfell suffered, and despite his anger I don't see Tyrion ordering a massacre of the many many cousins living happily and safely in the West. The Lannisters will probably only lose the throne gained through incest and treason, keeping the Rock and their status as great lords while escaping the worst of the conflict that Cersei and Jaime started.

 

So Sansa/Davos go to the Mormonts. Maybe the Manderly-ish lord from the casting call is one of many who've gathered on Bear Island and Sansa only needs to make one speech to win their support.

 

Some are saying that shot of a man being stabbed in the back is a flashback of Jaime killing Aerys but that seems like an odd thing to include. Cersei's flashback was the first the show included since they cut the filmed Aerys/Brandon material, and this season it'll have Bran and Bloodraven physically present in visions of the past. IMO, there's some other explanation for the shot.

 

Guesses for the timing of Roose's death? He's been almost totally absent from the trailers and photos. I'd say he insults Ramsay for letting Sansa escape in 6x02 and gets killed with Walda around 6x04.

 

Totally absent: Dorne. I know the Sand Snakes were a flop, but this is starting to seem a bit harsh. We know they filmed something.

[Avaleigh]

Totally absent: Dorne. I know the Sand Snakes were a flop, but this is starting to seem a bit harsh. We know they filmed something.

I am totally fine with them being harsh and never showing Dorne again. Show wise I feel like it doesn't matter if we ever go there again nor do I think it's necessary to see Ellaria, the Sand Snakes, or Doran in future seasons. It's crazy that they spent all of that time and money and there isn't anything good to say or show for it. It was such a waste of time and there were so many possibilities.

[SeanC]

Guesses for the timing of Roose's death? He's been almost totally absent from the trailers and photos. I'd say he insults Ramsay for letting Sansa escape in 6x02 and gets killed with Walda around 6x04.

McElhatton said at the premiere event that he filmed all of his stuff very early the preceding summer, so I think Roose goes pretty quickly.

[ElizaD]

I am totally fine with them being harsh and never showing Dorne again. Show wise I feel like it doesn't matter if we ever go there again nor do I think it's necessary to see Ellaria, the Sand Snakes, or Doran in future seasons. It's crazy that they spent all of that time and money and there isn't anything good to say or show for it. It was such a waste of time and there were so many possibilities.

 

I loved that Teenage Ninja Sand Snakes video, so the storyline was only 99% a waste to me. If they had decided to cut Dorne, I guess it could have been pretty easy: have Jaime say in the premiere that he sent Trystane back to avoid murder and war since they've got more than enough to worry about right now, include a line at some point about how Dorne has gone back to ignoring the rest of the realm. They did film some Dornish season 6 stuff, though, and since they're committed to it they could at least try to sell a redemption storyline, the way they've done with other plots that get the "you'll see how it all makes sense" promotion.

[feverfew]

Since GRRM hasn't finished the books we can't really put Rickon dying on him yet until he writes it in his books.

Rickon dying is a D&D invention just for shock value IMO. Having the Umbers hand him over to the Boltons is ridiculous because the Umbers nor any other Stark bannermen would ever do that.

D&D is obviously telling their own story that's dark, violent, depressing, nihilistic society, with one note characters with shock moments to keep the viewers interested. This is not the Starks where Littlfinger has to ride in and save them or where Sansa was raped in her family's ancestral home, or where the Starks' own bannermen for 8000 years would just hand over their leige lord to be murdered. This is D&D's story.

 

I'm pretty sure Rickon will die in ASoIaF as well. He might not die the same way, but I'm willing to bet good money on his fate being death.The boy hasn't been a presence for five books; what makes you think he'll be important to the overall story? It would be terrible storytelling if Martin made him an important player in the last act - too much like

Aegon

in fact. For my money he'll be the last true loss the Stark family will suffer, before things will turn around for them.

 

I don't think D&D are that "dark, violent, depressing, [or] nihilistic" - I think this is the darkness before dawn. Season 6 will be the beginning of the end and D&D will not want to end the series on a complete black note. If for no other reason than the fact that a nihilistic ending won't sell any complete box sets ;)

[GrailKing]

GRRM said bittersweet, in the end the Starks will return, with maybe one more Stark death, my guess is Benjen will be shown to die way up North after Bran learns info, as for the remaining Starks: Bran  and Sansa I think will make it, not sure on Rickon and I place 50 50 on both Jon and Arya surviving.

If GRRM wants to throw conflict in the story I can see him killing off Rickon the future heir of WF to create tension between Sansa and Jon and the Northern houses.

[Jazzy24]

I'm pretty sure Rickon will die in ASoIaF as well. He might not die the same way, but I'm willing to bet good money on his fate being death.The boy hasn't been a presence for five books; what makes you think he'll be important to the overall story? It would be terrible storytelling if Martin made him an important player in the last act - too much like

Aegon

in fact. For my money he'll be the last true loss the Stark family will suffer, before things will turn around for them.

I don't think D&D are that "dark, violent, depressing, [or] nihilistic" - I think this is the darkness before dawn. Season 6 will be the beginning of the end and D&D will not want to end the series on a complete black note. If for no other reason than the fact that a nihilistic ending won't sell any complete box sets ;)

But why invent Rickon just to kill him off later? GRRM creates characters for a purpose. Killing Rickon off would be bad story telling and for shock purposes.

I think Rickon was created to be Lord of Winterfell or the King in the North when it's all over and done. All his other siblings are too lost IMO except Sansa. Bran is becoming a tree, Arya is a walking assassin and associated with death to seem like she'll make it to the end and Jon is a corpse who might sacrifice his life for Westeros. Rickon and Sansa seem like the only Starks who mighty make it out alive IMO.

All yeah I do think D&D are all for telling a dark depressing, violent story. They had Sansa raped in her own home when in the books that's not the story. They have killed Stannis by making Ramsey Bolton a great commander and will have him slaughtering more Northmen in the coming season. They seem like they're depending on shock moments for the show and have no rhyme or reason for some of their decisions.

[Greta]

But why invent Rickon just to kill him off later? GRRM creates characters for a purpose. Killing Rickon off would be bad story telling and for shock purposes.

 

But Rickon's death and the conflict it sets up at that particular point might be his purpose. As GrailKing noted, Jon and Sansa would likely both support Rickon's status as next Lord of Winterfell, but if he was suddenly removed, what would be their reactions? Who would they see as having the better claim?  Whatever their actions in the aftermath, they would have the emotional underpinnings of just learning of their baby brother's death on top of all the other separate traumas they've gone through.  Seems like good storytelling to me.

Although I have often wondered if Rickon would just completely disappear, never heard from again, in the books. It would be a very realistic end reflecting what war is actually like and undermine yet another trope.

[GrailKing]

In book there is the possibility that either Rickon refuses to go with Davos or he is so wild that no one would follow him, also Manderly said his Liege lord and he knows both are alive so I think he's holding out for Bran and sending Davos on a goose er shaggydog chase.

 

 

going to work be back later.

Edited April 13, 2016 by GrailKing

[Jazzy24]

But Rickon's death and the conflict it sets up at that particular point might be his purpose. As GrailKing noted, Jon and Sansa would likely both support Rickon's status as next Lord of Winterfell, but if he was suddenly removed, what would be their reactions? Who would they see as having the better claim? Whatever their actions in the aftermath, they would have the emotional underpinnings of just learning of their baby brother's death on top of all the other separate traumas they've gone through. Seems like good storytelling to me.

Although I have often wondered if Rickon would just completely disappear, never heard from again, in the books. It would be a very realistic end reflecting what war is actually like and undermine yet another trope.

There would be no sudden conflict on who rules Winterfell. Jon has always supported his true born siblings over himself so Jon would think Winterfell belongs to Sansa just like in the books plus a Bran is still alive.

And why would the Stark siblings fight over who rules Winterfell after spending all the books mourning each other and longing for each other.

Creating conflict over which Stark rules Winterfell would be another attempt to force contrived drama where there shouldn't be any. We already have the KL drama, Dany and Tyrion in Mareen, the Greyjoy stuff, Baratheon, the Others and other side stories that needs to be wrapped up why insert more story when the other stories will need a lot of attention.

[ElizaD]

There would be no sudden conflict on who rules Winterfell. Jon has always supported his true born siblings over himself so Jon would think Winterfell belongs to Sansa just like in the books plus a Bran is still alive.

 

He's also seen the real enemy and even if some of the northerners disbelieve those claims they will be the first to get proof of the Wall's fall and the White Walker invasion. Neither Jon nor Sansa is power-hungry, and creating more political conflict in the North instead of having them focused on fighting the WW would be ridiculous: there's going to be plenty of opportunies to show that kind of scheming elsewhere, at least one major plot should treat the White Walkers as a real threat rather than stuff that gets in the way of the more important human squabbling over the throne. If Jon and Sansa allow any fighting over which of them gets the title, and the Stark reunion consists of one hug before they turn on each other while Rickon's corpse is still warm, let the White Walkers just kill them all: Westeros won't be worth saving if the people are so irredeemably stupid and selfish even when faced with a zombie apocalypse. Instead of a Stark victory, we're getting Rickon's murder and a return to the home that will always be tainted as the place where Sansa was kept as a Bolton sex slave: if the show's not supposed to be a nihilistic validation of Ramsay's view that expecting any happiness is contemptible, it should at least allow Jon and Sansa to be mature enough to support each other after all they've lost and work together to fight the greater danger of the White Walkers.

[Hecate7]

I'm beginning to wonder why GRRM even created the Stark family to be honest. He used the Stark family to introduce us to his world and it is this family that he seems happiest killing off. I understand Ned's death from a plot point of view and to send a message to the reader that nobody is safe, but I think it is wrong for an author to slowly eliminate the main family used to explore the world. I recently rewatched the first ever episode and it is very Stark heavy and maybe I was too naïve at the time but I felt one of the conclusions to the show, based upon the first episode, would be the Stark family reuniting after being separated with maybe one parent not surviving. Sometimes I feel GRRM would have been better having the Lannisters as the 'main' family.

 

 

Both families are being slowly eliminated, I think. It's a bit like chess. The Starks are the white and the Lannisters the red pieces.

[Advance35]

Both families are being slowly eliminated, I think. It's a bit like chess. The Starks are the white and the Lannisters the red pieces.

 

I thought it was interesting that the show made a point of reiterating that Casterly Rock has run out of gold.   I think it's the main branch of House Lannister that will be devestated and if you think about it, they already are.   The Starks have lost Ned, Catelyn and Robb.  House Lannister has lost Joffrey, Tywin and Myrcella.  It's just in this story, retribution isn't always delivered by the one injured.   I think Tyrion will live through everything but the rest of House Lannister will go down painfully.   If nothing else I think Cersei will take the Tyrell's down with her.  Cersei sums it up in the trailer "Show them what we do to our enemies."   I don't think there is going to be any Queen trial, I expect Cersei to dismantle the High Sparrow and his followers in violent fashion.

 

I think as speculated Rickon isn't long for this world and I think Sansa will be dead  before it's all over as well (It looks like things may be turning in her favor this season but this IS Game of Thrones, and I don't think she'll be walking on Sunbeams for 2 seasons straight).  If she's in the North I expect her to be a casualty of the Otherpocalypse.  If not by zombie's then I think she will be the victim of a hail mary scheme by Cersei, to settle accounts before she goes down completely.

Edited April 13, 2016 by Advance35

[SeanC]

If not by zombie's then I think she will be the victim of a hail mary scheme by Cersei, to settle accounts before she goes down completely.

Cersei is one of Sansa's foils.  Sansa may die before this is all over, but no way is Cersei going to be responsible for it.

[Chris24601]

I don't think Sansa's going to die at all. People complain about Rickon being a Shaggy Dog story, but he's a minor secondary character in both the books and the show. We follow Sansa through seven books and eight seasons of misery and then she dies is NOT going to go over anywhere near as well as Rickon's death and that's already controversial.

 

My money is on Rickon being the last major Stark death and IF there is another Stark death it will likely be Arya by heroic sacrifice (i.e. a result of killing someone terribly evil and powerful) to fulfill the first book ironic statement that she'll be killing people all through winter and her body won't be found by her family until spring with Needle still clutched in her frozen fingers. That said, I think that line could even more ironically represent that Arya is going to become the new Night Queen as part of fulfilling whatever ancient pact that keeps the Others in check.

[Advance35]

I don't think Sansa's going to die at all. People complain about Rickon being a Shaggy Dog story, but he's a minor secondary character in both the books and the show. We follow Sansa through seven books and eight seasons of misery and then she dies is NOT going to go over anywhere near as well as Rickon's death and that's already controversial.

 

But I don't think it's supposed to go over well.  The story has lost a lot of prominent characters to political manuevering, Robert Baratheon, Ned, Catelyn, Robb, Lyssa, Joffrey, Tywin, Kevan and Oberyn, there is know way the Otherpocalypse comes and doesn't take out a fair amount of characters themselves, both good and bad.   I know many people want Sansa to be Queen in the North but the fact that the show has her up there when the Others are about to breach the role, as the Iron Bank says "this does not add up to a happy ending."   GRRM said it's going to be bittersweet.  I fully expect more Good Guy/Gal deaths.

 

For some reason I can see Arya dying, which sucks for me since I don't like her and have been bored by her story since CoK.

 

 

Cersei is one of Sansa's foils.  Sansa may die before this is all over, but no way is Cersei going to be responsible for it.

 

I wouldn't be so sure.  While my gut reaction is the Otherpocalypse, I could see Cersei's last act as her sending Frankengregor after Sansa.  The showrunners did make a point of Cersei finding out WHERE Sansa Stark is, which is a definite contrast to the book version of the story.  

[GrailKing]

There are a lot of prophesies about the Stark girls and House Stark as a whole dying in book and also in show:

Arya for example: in book Jon said

kiddingly they find her dead body in the snow with needle in her hands

, in show we have her in the hall of faces just after "jagun" takes the poison and Arya is removing faces and the last one is hers.

 

Sansa: We have the

Giant prophesies with Gregor, Hound, Jamie ( or maybe Brieene )

in show we have Cersei demanding her head on a spike to LF if he wants to be WOTN .

For House Stark in book and show we have also the opening the death of the Direwolf and the Stag, in book and show Jojen says the Wolves will come again, yet in book Leaf tells us that

there is no room for magic in the realms of men and all the magical creatures will die, the wolves will outlast them all but eventually they will go also

.

The Books started with Bran, it's most likely ending with him telling us the ending of the final conflict before the last Greenseer becomes a tree.

 

I also think House Stark could be sacrificed to save the sorry ass realm known as Westeros, and they live in songs forever, but still GRRM said the Starks are the heroes, they're his NY Giants and the ending be bitersweet so we will have to wait and see how it ends.

Edited April 13, 2016 by GrailKing

[Jazzy24]

I defiantly think the Starks are going to survive to rule Winterfell and the North again because as Jojeen Reed said in ASOS "the wolves will come again" now which Starks that remains to be seen.

[Danny Franks]

The Starks can't survive in any meaningful way, at least in terms of what their society deems meaningful. There will be no male heirs left, no one to continue the family name.

 

Robb is dead, and clearly didn't father a child with his wife, as people used to speculate. Bran is crippled and unlikely to ever return from beyond the Wall, Rickon is probably fodder for more of Ramsey's 'Ultimate Villain Muahahaha' schtick. Jon is either a bastard or a Targaryen, but either way doesn't count as a Stark. So even if Sansa or Arya survive, they won't be Starks any more should they marry. End of the line. No more Starks in Winterfell. For the nihilism of Martin and his most devout fans, I'm sure that's just great. For myself, it's one of the reasons I've practically given up on this series ever delivering what I would consider to be a satisfactory climax.

 

It's quite funny, when you look at this story as a whole, and at the history of Westeros. The idea that any family has survived for thousands of years is laughable, when they get killed off so regularly. The birth rate must have been sky high ('better have some more kids. I only have eight heirs, and that's never going to be enough to keep the family going!').

 

Even in this story, people talk about the Starks, Lannisters, Freys, Greyjoys and others possibly being wiped out. Oh, and the Arryns, possibly the Tullys, even the Martells. What about the Tyrells? Yeah, possibly. It beggars belief, really.

Edited April 13, 2016 by Danny Franks

[SeanC]

I wouldn't be so sure. 

I am.  It makes no sense for Sansa's story; she's moved beyond Cersei at this point, and while some people think of her as fulfilling the YMBQ prophecy, I think it's unlikely the characters will have anything more to do with each other.

 

The Starks can't survive in any meaningful way, at least in terms of what their society deems meaningful. There will be no male heirs left, no one to continue the family name.

 

Robb is dead, and clearly didn't father a child with his wife, as people used to speculate. Bran is crippled and unlikely to ever return from beyond the Wall, Rickon is apparently fodder for more of Ramsey's 'Ultimate Villain Muahahaha' schtick. Jon is either a bastard or a Targaryen, but either way doesn't count as a Stark. So even if Sansa or Arya survive, they won't be Starks any more should they marry. End of the line. No more Starks in Winterfell. For the nihilism of Martin and his most devout fans, I'm sure that's just great. For myself, it's one of the reasons I've practically given up on this series ever delivering what I would consider to be a satisfactory climax.

Women can pass on the family name.  If you believe Ygritte's story about Bael the Bard has a basis in fact, the current Stark line is already female-line.  But more concretely, there are numerous examples of female noblewomen with adult sons of the same surname (Lady Waynwood, Lady Oakheart, Lady Flint, Lady Mormont).

Edited April 13, 2016 by SeanC

[Greta]

There would be no sudden conflict on who rules Winterfell. Jon has always supported his true born siblings over himself so Jon would think Winterfell belongs to Sansa just like in the books plus a Bran is still alive.

And why would the Stark siblings fight over who rules Winterfell after spending all the books mourning each other and longing for each other.

Creating conflict over which Stark rules Winterfell would be another attempt to force contrived drama where there shouldn't be any. We already have the KL drama, Dany and Tyrion in Mareen, the Greyjoy stuff, Baratheon, the Others and other side stories that needs to be wrapped up why insert more story when the other stories will need a lot of attention.

Sansa and Jon have mourned and longed for each other? "My half-brother's Lord Commander, that's cool" doesn't count as 5 volumes of an emotional arc.  I can absolutely see either of them turning on the other (completely justifying it in their own heads because they don't know each other's stories and honestly don't even know each other well at all) or alternatively either or both of them having grown enough to want the other to lead Winterfell. 

 

Shrug, I don't really have a (shaggy)dog in this fight. My point was Rickon's death is not necessarily bad storytelling by either D&D or GRRM.

[Chris24601]

I know many people want Sansa to be Queen in the North but the fact that the show has her up there when the Others are about to breach the role, as the Iron Bank says "this does not add up to a happy ending."   GRRM said it's going to be bittersweet.  I fully expect more Good Guy/Gal deaths.

I'd agree if not for the fact that the Starks will be re-taking Winterfell this season. You know the place with an intact Weirwood and Godswood and, according to legends (and if this story is showing anything its that most legends are true) built by the same guy who built The Wall that held back to the Others for thousands of years. We've already seen wights explode just trying to enter an area under the protection of a Weirwood so my gut tells me that whoever is holed up in Winterfell when the Others arrive in earnest will actually be the SAFEST people in all of Westeros.

 

There's also just the laws of narrative structure which require a story to end where it began in earnest... which is Winterfell. I don't think its an accident that, according to some legends Winterfell got its name because it was the place that Winter (i.e. the Others) Fell (i.e. were defeated) in the Battle for Dawn. If anyplace is going to be the last stand of Men against the Darkness its going to be at Winterfell... so again, anyone inside those walls are far more likely to survive than anywhere else because it will be the absolute last place that will be breached.

 

Also, Bittersweet doesn't mean "all is misery and woe" it just means the victory was hard-fought and costly... which it already has been to extremes for the Starks. Ned, Cat and Robb are already certainly dead. Rickon is likely to be dead this season/the next book. Arya will probably either die near the end of the story as well or have to go off and become the new Night Queen (and thus leave the realms of Men entirely). That leaves a crippled Bran who may never leave the cave he's in (or choose to go back when its all over), Jon and Sansa as the only Stark survivors and by the times all over they'll all have gone through traumas that make what Ned's generation went through in Robert's Rebellion look like a stroll in the park. There's just not too much you can do to the Starks at this point and still claim the ending is bittersweet and not outright nihilistic.

 

My hunch is that Rickon's death will be the darkness before the dawn as the Starks start to turn the tide and win back what has been lost while Arya will probably be the final sacrifice that seals the deal on the Stark's resurgence.

 

One other point on Sansa's death 'foreshadowing'... the giant prophecy is that she'll slay the giant and put his head on a pike outside Winterfell and Cersei's demands for her head on a spike aren't foreshadowing at all (well, maybe ironically to Littlefinger if he's the giant/titan). Similarly, while you've got the prophecy that all things tied to magic will die out in time, the story also went out of its way to kill off Sansa's connection to the magic of the North when Ned killed Lady... and not just killed, killed with a sword that had been forged using magical fire (i.e. the antithesis of ice magic). Far from foreshadowing her death, Ned might have actually spared Sansa the fate that's slowly befallen the rest of his children by cutting off her ties to magic (by the same token, if R_L=J is true then Jon is neither fire nor ice either and either his balance of the two forces or the two cancelling each other out in him is probably the reason he'll be so damned important).

 

In other words, there really AREN'T any real elements foreshadowing Sansa's death in the books or the show. The only character I think is safer will be Jon, because there's no point to killing him off again, even at the climax of the story because we've already seen the effects of his death once already and Tyrion, because its Tyrion. Frankly, Dany and Arya have far more death omens hanging over their heads when it comes to resolving this story and the only question with Cersei is WHEN not if she's dying (my hunch is season seven, just before Dany reaches Kings Landing).

 

The Starks can't survive in any meaningful way, at least in terms of what their society deems meaningful. There will be no male heirs left, no one to continue the family name.

The Dunk & Egg stories and the tale of Bael the Bard refer to at least two separate incidents when the Stark line continued through a female member. The Stark name is so prestigious in the North that either the husband took it himself or the children retained the mother's surname. There's no reason for GRRM to include those stories if he didn't intend to make use of them again. My personal hunch is that we'll eventually see both versions of this decent happen together with the Stark dynasty re-established via a political marriage between Jon Stark (i.e. son taking mother's surname) and Sansa (i.e. continuance through the female line), thus appeasing both the Northern lords who want a male heir and those who want to ensure that Ned's grandson eventually inherits Winterfell.

Edited April 13, 2016 by Chris24601

[Jazzy24]

Sansa and Jon have mourned and longed for each other? "My half-brother's Lord Commander, that's cool" doesn't count as 5 volumes of an emotional arc. I can absolutely see either of them turning on the other (completely justifying it in their own heads because they don't know each other's stories and honestly don't even know each other well at all) or alternatively either or both of them having grown enough to want the other to lead Winterfell.

Shrug, I don't really have a (shaggy)dog in this fight. My point was Rickon's death is not necessarily bad storytelling by either D&D or GRRM.

Yeah they do long for each other Sansa has a sentence in AFFC longing to see Jon.

My main point is Jon is not one to become Lord of Winterfell before his trueborn siblings he has constantly refused Winterfell when offered and even said that Winterfell belongs to Sansa. There is no conflict there.