S02.E22: Masha Rostova

[John.G]

In the 'real world' this would be the end of the show. With Lizzie's FBI career now burned beyond redemption there is no reason for Red to not go back into hiding and stay gone for real this time.

[saber5055]

I keep forgetting to add this comment, not that it matters now that Lizzie probably won't be working for the FBI anytime soon, but it is extremely trashy for any woman, much less a professional one, to wear a black bra under a white blouse.

 

There. Said it.

[paigow]

I keep forgetting to add this comment, not that it matters now that Lizzie probably won't be working for the FBI anytime soon, but it is extremely trashy for any woman, much less a professional one, to wear a black bra under a white blouse.

 

There. Said it.

If you have ever ...[ ]... you might be a trashy woman..... 

[alias1]

I keep forgetting to add this comment, not that it matters now that Lizzie probably won't be working for the FBI anytime soon, but it is extremely trashy for any woman, much less a professional one, to wear a black bra under a white blouse.

 

 

I see it quite a bit, even in real life.  They seem to think it's trendy.  I agree it looks trashy. 

[Julia]

From the FBI website

As representatives of the FBI around the world, agents are expected to dress and act professionally. This does not mean that all agents have to wear the stereotypical dark suit with a white, starched shirt. Agents perform many different roles that require different kinds of attire. For example, agents on evidence response teams often wear cargo pants or jeans when digging through debris for clues, and agents making arrests wear FBI raid jackets and other gear that clearly identify them.

Their college internship program is more specific

Appropriate attire for men includes business suits, sport jackets, and slacks, shirts, and ties. Appropriate attire for women includes business dresses, dress suits, pants suits, and professional blouses.

So taste level aside, a real FBI agent would be sent home to change if they showed up for work with their underwear visible. Only, you know, Liz Keen. If they're not splitting hairs about the having skills like an FBI agent stuff, they're not likely to worry about the dress code.

[nutty1]

Why was Red saying goodbye to Denbe? It was touching, but is he planning to go away with Lizzie forever? (pardon my tardiness, I finally watched the finale tonight).

[Danielg342]

Now, there are definitely many other questions to be answered about that night and it's certainly possibly the writers could twist and retcon events in the future, but as things currently stand, Red is not Liz's father.

Things still could change. In the summer of 2011, after Patrick Jane supposedly shot Red John on The Mentalist, Simon Baker flat out said that the man Jane shot was Red John...until he turned out not to be. So we may not be finished with this “father” business yet.

[Wynterwolf]

If they can figure out a plausible, non-paternal feelings-related reason for Red's actions towards her from the time of the fire forward, without turning him into a creepy stalker, I will tip my hat to them. But since I think TPTB wrote the whole Tom subplot in simply to tie to the Ford Mustang commercials, I don't think they are going to worry too much about continuity.  

[SunnyBeBe]

At first I was intrigued and anxious to know the real deal between Red and Lizzy.  Then I grew impatient and annoyed.  Later I got ticked off and just wanted them to wrap it up. Enough is enough.  Then we got the pathetic explanation that couldn't have been much more anti-climatic.  That's it?............lol  Okay.  Whatever....pitiful.  Now, let's just move on to a regular show about Red.  This might be a perfect jumping off place for her character.  Now, I have zero interest in her and Red's connection.  In fact, I do NOT want anymore information about it.  

[Wynterwolf]

I feel the same way, SunnyBeBe.  That is something that should have been answered (at least for the audience), back in S1 or at the latest, early S2.  I asked in another thread if we ever got an answer for what Sam had wanted to tell Liz before he died (if we did, I'm not remembering it).  But if this was the secret he wanted to tell her, why would he have wanted to tell her that????   And if that was it, Red would have had very little trouble talking him out of it... he wouldn't have had to kill him to keep him quiet .   

[SunnyBeBe]

Good point!

[saber5055]

Yeah, great flashback. Why DID Red kill Sam? I'm guessing the writers don't know either, and have forgotten about it. Lizzie seems to.

[Julia]

I really never understood why uber-daddy's girl Lizzie wasn't just a touch more peeved that Red murdered her father. It seemed as if they could have gotten a few weeks of IT'S TOTALLY OVER THIS TIME NO BACKSIES out of it instead of dropping it more or less right away and having her become deathlessly indignant because his cologne was insufficiently supportive or whatever the hell they had her flip her squiff over the next week.

[calipiano81]

Yeah, great flashback. Why DID Red kill Sam? I'm guessing the writers don't know either, and have forgotten about it. Lizzie seems to.

Sam had terminal cancer and was in a lot of pain, so Red killed him partly to put Sam out of his misery, but also, as Red told Lizzie, to protect her from finding out the identity of her real father (which, according to Red, is what Sam was going to tell her).

I think Lizzie let it go because a part of her wouldn't have wanted Sam to suffer. Also, as much as she hates to admit it, she's grown emotionally attached to Red and she probably saw how much it affected him when he was explaining to her how killing Sam was the most difficult thing he'd ever done.

Edited June 1, 2015 by calipiano81

[calipiano81]

It seems to me that those who are still not convinced Red is not Lizzie's dad is because they actually WANT Red to be the dad.

But why? Wouldn't love by choice be so much more amazing and powerful (not to mention interesting) than love by familial obligation/default?

Why is it implausible for Red to care for Lizzie the way he does without being her father?

Edited June 1, 2015 by calipiano81

[Julia]

I don't, actually, think he's her biological father, but only speaking for myself, I think it's highly implausible for him to care for Lizzie the way he does either way. I'm told that there are people who are enthusiastic about their relationship, but I find her affectless, humorless, spiritless and ineffectual. Based on what we've seen of his past partners, she doesn't strike me as his type.

At least with his being a father figure we avoid the specter of a powerful grown man, who was willing to murder the only father she ever knew to control what she knows about herself and clandestinely inserted her evil husband into her life, having a starry-eyed romantic attachment to a rather dull young woman who he's been obsessively stalking from afar since she was a young child. I think that would be a little too Twilight-style gothic for me.

Edited June 1, 2015 by Julia

[DEM]

When Lizzie went to kill Connolly I thought she was having a psychotic break or a dissociative episode, or perhaps that her Soviet trigger had kicked in.  Her affect and movements were so... odd.

 

I wish I could tell whether the writers are trying to say that Lizzie: a) is immature, b) has a deep-seated inclination toward The Dark Side, or c) both.  It's often hard to discern.

[Julia]

I've never noticed that what the writers put in the script having much of an impact on Megan Boone's acting choices. By and large, she strikes me as alternately sulky and robotic. Generally, when she's trying to be badass she goes with robotic.

[Eolivet]

While it feels like they took a ridiculously long and convoluted way to get there, I found myself surprisingly touched by the ending (likely due to Spader's great acting). Liz as Masha Rostova, daughter of a KGB agent, who also killed her own father, and Red, for whatever reason, who has been sort of finding his own redemption through trying to protect a woman with "evil spy" in her blood -- in part to prevent her from being used for evil governments and in part likely because his own daughter was killed...I don't know, I find that kind of poignant in a way (if I'm indeed remembering everything correctly). If her memory was true (and I don't think the show gave us a reason to believe it isn't), then she's the girl/woman with no father and he's the man with no daughter.

 

Assuming they always intended this in some form, I wonder if the reason Red hesitated way back when Liz asked him if he was father isn't because he was lying or for some Darth Vader "he betrayed and murdered your father" point of view omission, but because he thinks of her as his daughter. She's not, but that's what he feels/believes. It's absolutely how he acts, in any case.

 

I don't know, I tend to believe in Occam's Razor, so I have to believe they always intended that Red wasn't actually Liz's father because it was too obvious, but that they always intended some kind of de facto father/daughter bond between them. Unfortunately because James Spader has insane chemistry with even the furniture, they were forced to clarify that they weren't actually promoting an incestual relationship.

 

If this was a better show, I'd say next season could be really interesting -- with both Red and Liz each battling their good and evil natures. Liz and Red could be forces for good, or forces for "evil" -- it just depends on their choices. What will Red do if Liz starts embracing more of her "Masha" nature, especially now that she has nothing to lose? A better show could make this truly compelling.

 

But because it's this show, I'm guessing Red will be full of (albeit expertly delivered) snarky one-liners and fabulous jet-setting apparel, and Liz will unthinkingly commit at least one stupid act that will give their location away 15 minutes into the season premiere.

Edited June 27, 2015 by Eolivet

[Danielg342]

Eolivet, this seems to be a familiar problem with the show- there's just so much they could do if only it was on a better written show. The writers made the fatal mistake of heaping this show with mysteries- since this was supposed to be just a “popcorn thriller” and since Red can carry scenes by himself, they could have kept this as a procedural and still made something special.

[misstwpherecool]

Is this Red's way of showing what happend to him and he will use Lizzy to help him exact revenge on the cabal or organization? Did Red start out with good intentions as Liz did then found himself at the point of no return?

[HawaiiTVGuy]

Way late to the party because I binge watched the last half of the season on Netflix, but considering they just got evidence from the doctor in the form of recorded conversations with the Attorney General, one would think that Keen and Cooper would have brought a recorder when they confronted the Attorney General, especially if the main idea was to clear Keen's name.  I can't recall if he made an outright admission to framing Keen, but there was enough double-talk in what he said to cast some doubt as to his honesty to the general public regarding the case against Keen.