S04.E22: Operation Mongoose: Part 1 / S04.E23 Operation Mongoose: Part 2

[HoodlumSheep]

Yeah, the AU needed a couple more episodes. But then that would have eaten away at the rest of the season (although there were plenty of episodes that accomplished nothing, so I would have been fine if they were replace with AU eps.

Pacing, the inability to emotionally connect with the AU characters due to lack of time, and some sketchy acting are my biggest problems with these two episodes.

*It was strange how little Rumple was featured in an AU that's supposed to cater to his needs, rather than Regina's. I'm skeptical that he wouldn't just make Isaac write Hook, Regina, and whoever else to be dead straight from the start. But maybe that wasn't within Isaac's powers, so who knows.

Edited September 13, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[YaddaYadda]

I think Rumple's reasoning for not killing off Hook is that death is too easy. He could have killed him in 2x04, but he wanted him to suffer. 

[Camera One]

In the previous episode, it was supposed to be all about Rumple's bwahwaha evil endings for everyone, but by this episode, he basically told Isaac to write whatever he wanted.  So I suppose that's why Regina, Hook, etc. weren't being tortured a bit more.  I mean, Rumple has got to despise Zelena yet she got a happy relationship with Robin in the book's ending?  Meanwhile, Emma's AU life was made especially hellish, so I don't get what's up with that.  The AU really made no sense.  All they cared about was that it was "fun".  Why would Lily be working for Evil Snow and Charming anyway?

Edited September 13, 2015 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

The AU really made no sense.  All they cared about was that it was "fun".

I think that's the core problem. The creative process seemed to be all about "wouldn't it be fun if ..." rather than really thinking through what kind of world Isaac would create. Would it be strictly Rumple's revenge fantasy? Would it be Isaac getting to prove his belief that heroes aren't that great? The role flip between Snow and Regina doesn't prove that heroes aren't that great because if you didn't know that Regina had been a villain in another reality, you wouldn't know that a villain was being a hero. That's what makes Isaac's authorial success make little sense. His book was supposedly about playing with the concept of what it is to be a villain or a hero, except his audience would have no clue who Regina was, since it doesn't look like she was ever the Evil Queen from the story, so her being the hero of his book wasn't particularly groundbreaking. Regina having raging fangirls wouldn't have proved his point about the villains being better or more interesting than the heroes. Snow White being the evil queen has some potential because we all know the story of Snow White, but there has to be some kind of reasoning behind how she got to that point for it to work. You can't just give the Evil Queen the name Snow White and feel like you've explored the concept of heroes and villains. Was Snow White evil all along, so her stepmother had good reason to go after her, and once Snow defeated her stepmother she became an evil queen? Did her experiences with her stepmother and being on the run harden her, so that she became an evil queen once she got her throne back?

 

Unfortunately, if you're really exploring the heroes and villains thing, you don't get that role flip between Snow and Regina, and I suspect that was the core of their concept. They wanted to give Regina all the iconic Snow scenes, and there's not a good way of doing that if you're showing that the heroes aren't really that great and the villains are more interesting. If you're doing that, then we still have Snow as herself, but maybe Bandit Snow is seen as a nuisance or even a villain by the people, since villages are being slaughtered because of her. Regina is at least respected because her magic makes the kingdom wealthy and powerful. No one dares go to war against them because she can slaughter enemy armies before they attack. Or maybe Snow defeated Regina and is ruling, but she's a terrible queen because she's so goody-goody and wishy-washy, and Regina becomes a bandit in exile who soon gathers a following of people who are tired of Snow as queen. That would be a way to get Regina in something like the Bandit Snow role while Snow is the queen, but Regina would still be herself while doing bandity things, and Snow would still be herself rather than a scenery chewer in Cher's wardrobe. Regina as poor, put-upon hero just isn't a very interesting character.

[Curio]

It was strange how little Rumple was featured in an AU that's supposed to cater to his needs, rather than Regina's. I'm skeptical that he wouldn't just make Isaac write Hook, Regina, and whoever else to be dead straight from the start.

 

Isaac is truly Adam & Eddy's self-insert character. Even when Isaac is supposed to be writing a story for Rumple, he can't help but make it all about Regina anyways. He also admitted he couldn't remember what he wrote in his previous chapters. It's quite meta.

[KingOfHearts]

 

I think that's the core problem. The creative process seemed to be all about "wouldn't it be fun if ..." rather than really thinking through what kind of world Isaac would create.

But what's sad is that it wasn't even "fun" enough. It didn't have to necessarily be logical, but it could have gone far more crazy than it did.

 

 

Isaac is truly Adam & Eddy's self-insert character. Even when Isaac is supposed to be writing a story for Rumple, he can't help but make it all about Regina anyways. He also admitted he couldn't remember what he wrote in his previous chapters. It's quite meta.

Oh gosh, yes. This episode was extremely meta. It's as if A&E were showing the woes they experienced trying to sell their stories, then getting hit with success. The screaming Regina fan with the button was how they see the fandom, really.

Edited September 14, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Looking back, it's also quite amazing how extremely inconsequential the AU was in the 4B finale.  You could skip right to the ending with the darkness escaping Rumple as he was "dying" and you wouldn't have known the AU stuff even happened.

[YaddaYadda]

The screaming Regina fan with the button was how they see the fandom, really.

 

That sort of hit me when I was watching the finale. The fangirl's favorite character was bandit!Regina who is really supposed to be bandit!Snow because of the whole switcheroo. So was that meant to be ironic or something? I did roll my eyes hard.

 

Looking back, it's also quite amazing how extremely inconsequential the AU was in the 4B finale.  You could skip right to the ending with the darkness escaping Rumple as he was "dying" and you wouldn't have known the AU stuff even happened.

 

I thought the finale was all about the last 10 minutes. You have Belle telling Rumple that he could have had it all, her, the baby if he hadn't been so power hungry. 

 

And then there was Emma is too scared of telling Hook she loves him even after she knows she should've done that a long time ago and is filled with regrets and still can't bring herself to say the words.

 

There was a bit of a parallel there between Emma and Rumple and I guess they wanted it since Emma was going to become the new Dark One. 

Edited September 14, 2015 by YaddaYadda

[Shanna Marie]

Isaac is truly Adam & Eddy's self-insert character.

But were they trying to do that, or was it some kind of Freudian slip? It's sometimes so hard to tell what they intended to show and what somehow came out without them realizing it, especially since they always seem so surprised by questions they're asked in interviews, like they can't believe someone saw that in the show. Isaac was a villain who was wrong and was defeated, and yet he had the same attitude as the writers seem to have and wrote almost exactly like they do. And yet his writing was supposed to be bad, so that the only way he found success was by altering reality. I wasn't sure if we were supposed to believe that his boss really was a jerk or if his boss was just getting fed up with him botching every sale with his weird attitude. Maybe it's because I'm a military brat, but I didn't see anything wrong with the veterans bonding over their experiences. Isaac seemed to be the same age, so why hadn't he served? Did he try and was rejected, and so he resents the ones who did serve and get all the attention? I can see how that would have been tough for the WWII generation, since service was so universal then. Or did he somehow weasel out of it, and so he resents the attention because it pricks at his conscience?

 

Then there were the fans -- the fan was a Regina fan, but she was a fan for the character Snow basically is. So was she meant to make fun of the Regina fans, suggest that people should be Regina fans, or was it showing that Snow is really the character people love? If Isaac really thought Regina was a fascinating character, then why did he make her so bland? Was she really the hero of the story, or was she a secondary character that some fans latched onto?

 

I think the AU could have had some ramifications if they'd had more time in the aftermath to digest their experiences. Regina had walked in Snow's shoes, being the one hunted by an evil queen. Did that change her attitude toward Snow? Did seeing herself from the outside affect her? Were Snow and David traumatized by the horrible things they now remember doing? How was Hook affected by the experience of dying? They went through some serious stuff, and it was clear that they remembered it. Would they really have been laughing over beers at Granny's? But I guess it's like the Shattered Sight, where they did and said awful things to each other, but it didn't have any lasting impact.

[Curio]

Then there were the fans -- the fan was a Regina fan, but she was a fan for the character Snow basically is. So was she meant to make fun of the Regina fans, suggest that people should be Regina fans, or was it showing that Snow is really the character people love? If Isaac really thought Regina was a fascinating character, then why did he make her so bland? Was she really the hero of the story, or was she a secondary character that some fans latched onto?

This part was just fanservice for the real life Evil Regals of the show. If the fans in Isaac's world were anything like Once's real Regina fans, the girl should have been carrying around a button that said Long Live Snow White the Evil Queen.

 

I think the AU could have had some ramifications if they'd had more time in the aftermath to digest their experiences. Regina had walked in Snow's shoes, being the one hunted by an evil queen. Did that change her attitude toward Snow? Did seeing herself from the outside affect her?

It sucks that we won't ever get to see Regina on screen coming to the realization that she was a terrible, rotten person as the Evil Queen towards Snow after living a day in her shoes. The alternate universe switch between Snow and Regina is the perfect set up for some self-actualization like that, but with TS;TW, they won't feel the need to address it in Season 5 because it's a non-issue to them. In the writers' minds, their version of Regina already knows she was horrible to Snow in the past, but since Snow already knows Regina has "changed so much" and are on friendly terms currently, they think it would be redundant and not necessary for Regina to apologize to Snow now. 

[KingOfHearts]

 

Looking back, it's also quite amazing how extremely inconsequential the AU was in the 4B finale.  You could skip right to the ending with the darkness escaping Rumple as he was "dying" and you wouldn't have known the AU stuff even happened.

When Evil Snow killed off Doc, I really thought that was going to be a consequence to show how dangerous the situation really was. But much like the Shattered Sight spell, it turned out to be more for just a round of giggles. The writers wanted the AU to both be ridiculous and serious... and look what we got.

 

 

t sucks that we won't ever get to see Regina on screen coming to the realization that she was a terrible, rotten person as the Evil Queen towards Snow after living a day in her shoes.

There was an entire episode about that in S2. In fact, Regina came close to redeeming herself because of it. Then the village massacre ruined it all...

 

 

I think the AU could have had some ramifications if they'd had more time in the aftermath to digest their experiences. ... But I guess it's like the Shattered Sight, where they did and said awful things to each other, but it didn't have any lasting impact.

Yeah. After Regina attempted to murder Snow under Shattered Sight, they all just laughed about it. It's like in Star Trek the Original Series where some red shirts die, then the crew laughs about some lame joke Scotty makes at the end of the episode. There's no emotional consequences to anything and the AU is no different.

Edited September 14, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[DigitalCount]

Finally watched this, tempted to make a LOST references drinking game. It was cute every now and again, but essentially lifting the Richard Alpert scene with John and slapping it into this story was a bit much, especially when the scene involved an actor from LOST.

If they were going to do this plot they should have given it Neverland screen time. Two episodes were not enough. Also, maybe a death or two should have stuck. Kill Lily if you have to kill someone, or Zelena. As it was, the whole thing ended up being an amusing diversion that meant nothing.

Also, the central idea of the story fell apart for me. This wasn't "giving the villains happy endings," this was just changing their villainous or heroic deeds and getting the logical consequences from those deeds. It felt bizarre, because it didn't seem like the villains ever showed remorse for being villainous, or wished they'd made different choices. They simply wished they were entitled to happiness, warts and all. The villains complained about how the heroes got happy endings (untrue, but whatever) and Isaac wanted to make it so that sometimes the villains win, but he just turned the villains into heroes and some of the heroes into villains.

While Dark Granny and the Dark Dwarves were immensely awesome, and Dark Snow was apparently as rapey as any Mills, I don't know that they had a consistent story here. For me, a stronger AU would have been a story where the villains win as villains, enjoy wealth and popularity, and never have to do anything to help the people whose lives they've destroyed.

Oh wait

EDIT: it seems like this is the general consensus? Didn't read as much of the thread as I should have, lol :p

Edited September 16, 2015 by DigitalCount

[KAOS Agent]

I watched the tail end of this episode when it aired last night and there was a blink and you'll miss it part that was just this big WTF moment for me. Henry and Regina are sitting in the diner smiling while reading the story book. I don't care how different Regina is today, what kind of people sit around and fondly reminisce about the documentation of Regina's reign of terror that encompasses rape, torture and murder? Was she sitting there saying, "Oh look. Here's where I took Graham's heart and made him into my sex slave. And here's me gleefully burning your grandmother at the stake. Good times." Does anyone even think when they're filming this kind of crap?   

[Shanna Marie]

I don't care how different Regina is today, what kind of people sit around and fondly reminisce about the documentation of Regina's reign of terror that encompasses rape, torture and murder?

Oh, but per Henry (you know, the kid who felt so strongly about what he read in the book that he tracked down his biological mother, in spite of a closed adoption, and went on his own to Boston to bring her to town), the book was wrong about Regina. I guess maybe they were checking to make sure it was all back to normal instead of altered by Isaac?

 

But that scene bothered me because, after all the stuff that happened in the alternate universe and after that walking a mile in each other's shoes experience Regina and Snow had, it seemed weird that it was Regina and Henry and then later Robin sitting off to the side instead of interacting with the others. That would have been a great moment for Regina to show some empathy for Snow, or maybe create an awkward moment for Emma by seeming like she was going to comment on what Emma told her about Hook, or for Henry to say something to Hook about his sacrifice. That should have been a big group scene, not a Regina and Henry scene unless it was the two of them talking about how Operation Dumbass had turned out to be a really bad idea and discussing what a Valuable Lesson they'd learned about writing your own happy ending. Laughing over the book that depicts how evil Regina was just makes it worse.

[Curio]

Henry and Regina are sitting in the diner smiling while reading the story book. I don't care how different Regina is today, what kind of people sit around and fondly reminisce about the documentation of Regina's reign of terror that encompasses rape, torture and murder?

 

Oh, but those parts of the book don't exist anymore. They've been conveniently replaced with only Regina's suffering and her sad moments. (Much like the real show...how meta.) Henry even said in Heroes and Villains, "And my mom...lots of bad things happen to her in it" without any ounce of irony.

[RadioGirl27]

 

or for Henry to say something to Hook about his sacrifice.

I hated that they didn't share a scene once they were back from the AU. But a scene when Henry acknowledges Hook's sacrifice and his role in the AU would have dismissed Regina's savior role and we know that's something A&E would never do.

[Hecate7]

On 9/13/2015 at 7:08 PM, Shanna Marie said:

You can't just give the Evil Queen the name Snow White and feel like you've explored the concept of heroes and villains. Was Snow White evil all along, so her stepmother had good reason to go after her, and once Snow defeated her stepmother she became an evil queen? Did her experiences with her stepmother and being on the run harden her, so that she became an evil queen once she got her throne back?

They seemed to be making the statement that Snow would have done the same in Regina's shoes, but really she wouldn't. The experiences that turned Regina dark, wouldn't have turned Snow dark in the same way at all. She'd have said, "You're only a child! You're ten! Yes, I'm mad at you. Yes, this is a tragedy. But no, I'm not blaming you...you couldn't have known." Snow bereft of her true love would have cried, gotten depressed, possibly looked into resurrection magic...and then buried herself in good works, just as she did in Storybrooke. It would take something else to turn her dark. I think part of the point of someone like Snow is that nothing could really turn her really dark. Depressed, maybe. Bitter, even. But cruelty just isn't believable for her.

I could see an unconsciously cruel Snow who was so sheltered she didn't know that her pretty things cost lives, a Snow who required people to lie down and be walked on so she wouldn't get her feet dirty walking. Sort of innocence run amok and turned tyrant. But not a Snow who was just Regina played by a different actress. That was fun but ridiculous.

Quote

Unfortunately, if you're really exploring the heroes and villains thing, you don't get that role flip between Snow and Regina, and I suspect that was the core of their concept. They wanted to give Regina all the iconic Snow scenes, and there's not a good way of doing that if you're showing that the heroes aren't really that great and the villains are more interesting. If you're doing that, then we still have Snow as herself, but maybe Bandit Snow is seen as a nuisance or even a villain by the people, since villages are being slaughtered because of her.

Exactly. There really was no point in what they actually did--it doesn't really teach either character or the audience anything.

[Camera One]

This concept actually had potential (Henry in the town with everyone gone and a quest to get them back, an Enchanted Forest with an alternate past, etc.) but almost everything about this finale was disappointing. 

Spoiler

At least it wasn't a COMPLETE fail like the Season 5 and Season 6 finales, but that's not saying much.

The disappointment with character writing was expected... these Writers never go in thinking about the characters and interesting angles of exploration.  They're going for plot and the easiest (and most boring) route, which was to give Regina the Bandit Snow story and Snow the Evil Queen clone.  

The mythology stuff didn't even make sense.  Isaac putting everyone into a literal storybook was out of the blue but presented as if it were a natural progression of Isaac writing Rumple a "happy ending".  You'd think Rumple 

Spoiler

would have tried to get revenge on Isaac (considering he was just sitting there behind bars until Season 6) after the fact but he never mentioned this again.

They weren't even consistent with the "waking up" of the characters in this alt.  Snowing stayed evil 'til the end though Hook and Regina woke up... what's up with that?

How "real" was this AU for Emma, anyway?  If it felt like it lasted years, Emma should have been really traumatized.

But of course by the end of the episode, they were already onto the next dire threat.

Edited March 29, 2019 by Camera One

[Camera One]

On 7/16/2015 at 7:33 PM, Shanna Marie said:

How well the AU stuff works will depend on how it goes forward. Will Regina have learned anything after living Snow's life? 

LOL.  We were so young and innocent then.

[Shanna Marie]

There was potential in the AU concept, but what we got was such a mess. There's no coherent throughline or logic to the AU.

On the one hand, there was the message that heroes aren't so great -- but then all Isaac did was just write that the heroes were villains and villains were heroes. Well, some of them. Regina was playing the role of Snow and Snow was playing the role of Regina, and Rumple was the Light One instead of the Dark One. There was no world turned upside down with the villains getting their happy endings. Villain Rumple was written as a hero and got the happy ending with a wife and child. Villain Regina was basically just Snow and wasn't happy, and since apparently Robin and Zelena married in the book and the fangirl was begging for a happy ending for Regina, I'm guessing she didn't get a happy ending. Snow was turned into the Evil Queen, and Charming seemed to be Graham. Since she was controlling him with his heart, did that mean he wasn't really evil and was being forced to act like his brother? I can't tell that the story was going to give them any kind of happiness or a big defeat. They just disappeared from the story.

But then there were those who were cast opposite of their usual nature, with the message seemingly that people are basically going to be themselves, no matter how you change the circumstances -- Hook was written as a coward and weakling, but he ended up bravely fighting and sacrificing himself. Zelena was written as essentially Marian, but she reverted to being her jealous self. Rumple was written as a great hero, but he ended up being just as selfish as he usually is.

Meanwhile, Robin was pretty much exactly the same -- was he too boring to even mess with?

I guess they couldn't have done an AU where the villains won because it would look like most of the Snow vs. Regina flashbacks when Regina was queen. So they needed to keep them in their usual roles and change perceptions -- Regina's herself, but she's seen as the Good Queen, while Bandit Snow is the villain. I guess they could have shown Snow as evil and Regina as a bandit on the run if they'd shown how they got that way -- power went to Snow's head when she defeated Regina, Regina barely escaped her execution and went on the run as a bandit -- but then you're not really giving villains happy endings.

And we still don't really seem to be carrying out Isaac's "heroes aren't so great" thesis. Then we'd have needed to see the heroes trying and failing.

I do like the middle part, when they're focusing on Evil Snow, Henry and Hook's jailbreak, and then Hook and Emma and them running into the Evil Charmings. The story really takes off during that segment. Ginny seems to be having a blast playing Evil Snow. Colin is 100 percent gung-ho in playing the meek deckhand (I absolutely love what he's doing in the background when Emma is confronting the Evil Charmings and Hook is behind her attempting to look menacing and utterly failing because he can't figure out how to hold the sword). We had pop culture references, using a plot from Star Wars to break someone out of a fairy tale dungeon. There was actual swashbuckling.

And then we go right back to the idiocy.

I'm still irked that no one at any point in this story seems to be remotely aware that their entire stupid plan to find the Author to give Regina a happy ending (only for her to decide she didn't need him, after all) is what led to this whole situation. No one takes any responsibility for this. No one seems to have learned a thing from this entire experience.

Emma's fretting about not telling Hook she loved him might have been more meaningful if there had been some scene previously in which she should have told him and didn't. Otherwise, it comes out of the blue.

Why didn't they get the Apprentice out of the hat earlier? Hook knew he was in there, so they shouldn't have stopped at the fairies.

The Apprentice seemed capable of traveling between realms. Couldn't he have sent Rumple to find his son and saved everyone a lot of trouble? It would have rid their world of a Dark One. And the Apprentice utterly failed in recruiting an Author. You'd think that a bitter failed writer who hated heroes would be a very bad choice for writing stories about fairy tale heroes. Not that anything to do with the Author makes any sense at all.

[KingOfHearts]

32 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

There's no coherent throughline or logic to the AU.

This is exactly the problem with the episode. The S3 finale wasn't just a random time travel adventure - Emma's arc built up to it throughout the season and everything lined up with the show's canon. The S4 finale, on the other hand, was entirely arbitrary. Henry's day in the sun is fine and dandy, but the season wasn't really about that. A&E just gave it to him because he's their insert. There's no moral lesson on "heroes and villains" or "happy endings". None of the role swaps are particularly interesting. Overall though, the finale isn't terrible due to the fact it has some sort of straight forward plot that makes a little sense if you don't think about it too hard. It's somewhat focused, just pointless. 

Spoiler

If the Wish Realm were a straight-up "curse never happened" world, it would've been a superior concept. But, it ended up failing because like this AU, everything was arbitrary. Nothing made sense and there were no core themes. Both AU's only exist to be AU's and nothing more.

Edited March 30, 2019 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

22 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

The Apprentice seemed capable of traveling between realms. Couldn't he have sent Rumple to find his son and saved everyone a lot of trouble? It would have rid their world of a Dark One. And the Apprentice utterly failed in recruiting an Author. You'd think that a bitter failed writer who hated heroes would be a very bad choice for writing stories about fairy tale heroes. Not that anything to do with the Author makes any sense at all.

Nothing about The Apprentice's actions made any sense, from going out of his way to tell Lily everything to having chats with August, to hanging out in Storybrooke sweeping his doorstep when he knew the evil Rumple was in town and the all-important Hat Box was MIA.  

The "How to select the next Author" was basically a ripoff of what they did on "Lost" with how Locke was "selected" as a child, which was in turn based on how the Dalai Lama is chosen.  It's just like A&E to jump on something cool they wanted to do (in this case, re-do) instead of having a carefully planned mythology actually guide what happens.

How appropriate that the

Spoiler

nonsensical Apprentice led right to the nonsensical Sorcerer.  There's "mysterious" and then there's just plain old stupid.

[Shanna Marie]

8 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Henry's day in the sun is fine and dandy, but the season wasn't really about that.

They didn't even tie it into what he'd been doing through the whole arc. He was such a cheerleader for Operation Mongoose, and here he was seeing what really happened when it played out, but he never reacted at all. You'd think most kids would have had the big "this is my fault and I need to fix it" response. His becoming the Author made about as much sense as Isaac being chosen. It was because the plot needed it rather than because of anything that had been built up or developed. Henry had been obsessed with reading the storybook, but he'd shown no indication of having any interest at all in writing. You'd think we'd have at least seen him writing up the stories of what happened after the book ended, maybe writing a blog, doing video interviews of the various fairytale people. But instead it's out of the blue he just becomes the Author.

Not to mention Regina's "light Savior blood"

Spoiler

Which doesn't fit the later Savior mythology, since it sounds like it's something you're born with, not something that happens to you when you save someone, and it's not like Regina had magic there. So whatever.

Really, just about everything in this episode was because either they thought it would be fun or because they needed it to happen for the plot. Nothing grew organically out of the characters or situation, and the characters weren't reacting naturally at all.

[Camera One]

54 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

The S4 finale, on the other hand, was entirely arbitrary. Henry's day in the sun is fine and dandy, but the season wasn't really about that. A&E just gave it to him because he's their insert. 

From here on out,

Spoiler

Henry's "day in the sun" comes once a year at finale time.  Season 5's two-parter was Henry's quest to NYC to destroy magic causing him to inspire regular New Yorkers to belief for a brief moment.  And Season 6's two-parter mirrored Season 4's finale since Henry is the one who is in the know and trying to get someone else to believe.  In Season 7, his role seems less crucial in some ways despite the grown-man version becoming the main character.

Edited March 30, 2019 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

A couple of things that occurred to me that I hadn't thought of on previous viewings (that I can recall):

They seemed to be trying to mirror the "Snow Falls" events with Regina (with a dash of Captain Swan and the bandage), but what they seem to have missed in having the "heroine" meet her true love just as he's about to marry someone else is that with Snow, Charming was going into an arranged marriage. Neither he nor his bride wanted to be in this marriage, and the marriage wasn't even arranged for him. He's having to step into something arranged for his dead twin. He's doing this under duress, with his own life and his mother's life under threat. So there's a reason for him to be heading to this marriage in spite of falling for Snow, or for him to have sparks with Snow in spite of the fact that he's on his way to get married.

But with Robin and Regina in the AU, he's getting married because he's in love. He wants to marry Zelena. And yet he's sparking with Regina, even while talking about marrying for love later that day and how his bride has changed his life. I guess that's pretty typical of Robin, but I wonder if they realized what they were writing for him here.

Then, I can't quite figure out why an AU was necessary (other than the writers wanted it). We've seen Isaac write things that changed reality before without it sending them into another world. Why couldn't he have just written something like "Rumple's heart grew stronger, strong enough to contain the darkness"? And couldn't he have written his own happy ending as a successful author without making the events in his story actually happen? He could have written a book the normal way, then used his magic pen to write "Isaac's book was a huge bestseller." And I guess it really was a magic pen if he was able to handwrite an entire novel in a couple of hours.

[profdanglais]

Despite these episodes having one of my all time-favourite Captain Swan moments -- the looks on their faces when they run into each other in the tower -- it's ultimately such a mess. Others have dissected why it's a mess better than I could, so can I just rant for a minute about Deckhand Hook? 

Why? Literally, why is he like that? If he's not himself, if he's a meek deckhand instead of a bold captain, then why is he still dressed as Captain Hook? Why the eyeliner, why the black, why the hook? How did he lose his hand in this version of reality? He should be dressed as a deckhand would dress, he should either have his hand or a less dangerous prosthetic. And who keeps goat's milk in a flask? It would go off in hours and he'd have a flask full of cheese. It just makes no sense. I know that this is just one of many things that make no sense in this storyline, but to me Deckhand Hook is everything that's wrong with it in a microcosm. It just. makes. no. sense. 

[Shanna Marie]

56 minutes ago, profdanglais said:

If he's not himself, if he's a meek deckhand instead of a bold captain, then why is he still dressed as Captain Hook? Why the eyeliner, why the black, why the hook?

I guess even if he's a deckhand, he's a deckhand on a pirate ship, so he's still a pirate even if he's low man on the ship. Though it's really probably a case of this show being terrified of veering even a teensy bit from the Hook iconography even though his identity here was designed to make him the opposite of his real self because Rumple wanted to torture him. I would say that they were probably just using the costume they had available, but then he still wouldn't have needed the guyliner and jewelry. The hook I'd be okay with because that was the fairly standard way of doing a prosthesis that was moderately functional until fairly recently. I remember a kid in my elementary school who had a hook -- not entirely like Hook's, but still more or less the same concept.

Since they didn't bother coming up with a reason that Snow was evil and a queen and Regina was the one given away by Cora even though Zelena was older, they probably didn't even think for a moment about why AU Hook had a hook or why he would even still be alive in that universe. He'd have to have had an entirely different backstory there if Rumple was the Light One who surely wouldn't have murdered his first wife. I guess we should think of him as an entirely different character played by the same actor, as opposed to Snow and Regina, where they were the same characters played by different actors.

59 minutes ago, profdanglais said:

And who keeps goat's milk in a flask? It would go off in hours and he'd have a flask full of cheese.

I was thinking the same thing. Eww.

And we yet again have a case of these writers having absolutely zero idea how a ship like that works, with someone standing near the person at the wheel and telling him to go faster, like he can just step on the gas or do anything at all from that position aside from maybe turning the ship to catch more wind with the sails in their current position.

[Camera One]

1 hour ago, Shanna Marie said:

Since they didn't bother coming up with a reason that Snow was evil and a queen

Didn't they say Snow was in love with James, and Regina accidentally got James killed, but yeah, that was it.  Was Bandit Regina ever Snow's stepmother?  

Rumple being The Light One would have changed a lot of the past.  Not that the Writers thought it through in terms of how.

Wait a minute... was this a "what if" if Rumple had indeed been The Savior?  I love how A&E worked in their future storylines so seamlessly and you discover so much when you rewatch!

Edited April 1, 2019 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

4 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Didn't they say Snow was in love with James, and Regina accidentally got James killed, but yeah, that was it.  I don't think Bandit Regina was ever Snow's stepmother, was she?  

No, I didn't get that impression. But they didn't explain how Regina, who was abandoned by her mother, was ever around Snow to be able to accidentally get James killed. And Snow was apparently evil before James was killed, since what she liked about him was that he was evil. They were evil together, and then Regina ruined it.

5 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Rumple being The Light One would have changed a lot of the past.  Not that the Writers thought it through in terms of how.

I don't think that this AU was so much a case of "what if this one thing had gone differently" as it was a more or less entirely different story involving the same cast -- almost like the characters in the show are putting on a play in which they play different characters, some of whom are versions of the real characters. Rumple is playing a great hero (who doesn't appear in the real story). Snow is playing a version of Regina. Regina is playing a version of Snow, with a bit of Zelena's backstory. David is playing a mix of Graham and himself (since he was apparently still the twin who didn't become a prince, but Snow was using his heart to command -- and probably rape -- him like Regina did with Graham). Hook is playing a deckhand on Blackbeard's ship. Robin is basically playing himself. Zelena is playing a version of Marian. Emma's the only one who didn't get cast and actually is herself rather than playing a character.

It still doesn't make sense in terms of what they said they were doing, but it's less crazy-making if you think of it that way. Isaac used the people he knew and some of the events of their lives as the basis for an entirely fictional story that he forced them to play out, so their backstories may or may not apply. Deckhand Hook may not have spent a century in Neverland. He may just have been some guy from that time period, and he never was involved with Rumple's wife and never went on a revenge spree. I guess Isaac saw him as a hero and therefore boring rather than as a villain who was a more interesting character. Or else Isaac didn't care and let Rumple dictate what he was doing (though you'd think Rumple would have tortured him more than that).

[Camera One]

If Regina was just some random bandit girl, then how come all the fangirls were saying "Long Live Regina"?  Isaac's book signing didn't seem to mesh with what was in the story.  So the characters in the story were "Snow White" and "Prince Charming", but didn't they still get everything they wanted?  Was Regina meant to be the hero who lost?  But it can't be if everyone is cheering for her and not the actual villains of the piece.  Yet Regina still didn't get a happy ending in this book, so in what way is this book "What happens when villains win the day?"

---

Isaac:  Thank you. Thank you very much.  Please. Please, please, I-I'm not worthy.  Someone once told me I don't tell stories people want. (The crowd laughs.) But I say write what you're passionate about. That's what matters most.  Heroes and Villains is close to my heart. It's been a passion project for longer than you would believe. I wrote it because I think folks are sick of heroes getting everything in these classic fairy tales. Hence, the radically different endings for Snow White, Prince Charming, and all the rest. Something different for a modern audience. What happens when villains win the day? 
Isaac: (Signing a book.) Thank you.
Girl: Long live Regina. Please,can I give you a present? A little token of my love for the world that you've created. (She reaches into her pocket and gives Isaac a pin reading "LONG LIVE REGINA".) Regina—she's my favorite character.
Isaac: She's a real doozy, isn't she?
Girl: Her life is just so unfair. Is she gonna get a happy ending in the sequel? Please, you have to tell me?
Isaac: Sure, I can tell you. (She leans in. He whispers:) She... (Normal voice.) Sorry, no spoilers! You'll have to buy the next book when it's finished. 

Edited April 1, 2019 by Camera One

[andromeda331]

41 minutes ago, Camera One said:

If Regina was just some random bandit girl, then how come all the fangirls were saying "Long Live Regina"?  Isaac's book signing didn't seem to mesh with what was in the story.  So the characters in the story were "Snow White" and "Prince Charming", but didn't they still get everything they wanted?  Was Regina meant to be the hero who lost?  But it can't be if everyone is cheering for her and not the actual villains of the piece.  Yet Regina still didn't get a happy ending in this book, so in what way is this book "What happens when villains win the day?"

---

Isaac:  Thank you. Thank you very much.  Please. Please, please, I-I'm not worthy.  Someone once told me I don't tell stories people want. (The crowd laughs.) But I say write what you're passionate about. That's what matters most.  Heroes and Villains is close to my heart. It's been a passion project for longer than you would believe. I wrote it because I think folks are sick of heroes getting everything in these classic fairy tales. Hence, the radically different endings for Snow White, Prince Charming, and all the rest. Something different for a modern audience. What happens when villains win the day? 
Isaac: (Signing a book.) Thank you.
Girl: Long live Regina. Please,can I give you a present? A little token of my love for the world that you've created. (She reaches into her pocket and gives Isaac a pin reading "LONG LIVE REGINA".) Regina—she's my favorite character.
Isaac: She's a real doozy, isn't she?
Girl: Her life is just so unfair. Is she gonna get a happy ending in the sequel? Please, you have to tell me?
Isaac: Sure, I can tell you. (She leans in. He whispers:) She... (Normal voice.) Sorry, no spoilers! You'll have to buy the next book when it's finished. 

Good question. Why were did she have fans? She was no longer the Evil Queen or never was so its not like they read Snow White and were happy to read what really happened to poor Regina or see her as a hero. So why would they be so invested? Why is she the favorite character? What did Bandit Regina do? How is she a hero? We don't see her do anything. Why is her life so unfair? From what we see of Isaac's best selling book its not good or even interesting. 

[Camera One]

On another front, I'm looking forward to visiting my local diner to buy the latest paperbacks.  

[KingOfHearts]

11 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

Good question. Why were did she have fans? She was no longer the Evil Queen or never was so its not like they read Snow White and were happy to read what really happened to poor Regina or see her as a hero. So why would they be so invested? Why is she the favorite character? What did Bandit Regina do? How is she a hero? We don't see her do anything. Why is her life so unfair? From what we see of Isaac's best selling book its not good or even interesting. 

Probably why no one bought his books.

[tennisgurl]

From the little we saw, Isaac really sucks at being an Author, both the position and being just a guy who writes books. The Heroes and Villains story just sounds like a crappy paperback that he might have to self publish to even get into the sales racks, and even his in universe powers, like manipulating Snowing into eggnapping, arent particularly interesting stories. Why was this guy chosen anyway?