Family Ties: The Good, The Bad And The Ugly

[ari333]

Toxic is a word that has occurred to me, I was just too chicken to say it to myself.

[ari333]

BW56, when you said, "this is the reality you've been dealing with your entire life" that rings true. For many years, I just thought it was all my fault.  As I said, I was a wimp. I never spoke to anyone about it in any kind of detail (a passing mention to a bf, etc)  until I typed the words here. I just spewed it all here. (ok, not all, but some)

I already mentioned that I had a dream of opening a restaurant so I did it and it was great for years. Before I opened the restaurant I said NOTHING about it. I just did it, bc I knew if I talked about it before I did it they'd shit all over it with statistics about how restaurants fail or whatever downer stuff they could pile on. So at times during the years, I just stopped talking. Profitable restaurant for 14 yrs is not a failure in my book

Before that , in my 20s, I had a dream of being a professional musician , so I did it. for years.  We made a recording (in the old days) - wrote some songs etc . We went on the road and I got to travel to many beautiful places and had great fun doing what I loved.  I recall her saying, "music is not a vocation. It is an avocation."  SNEER. I just remember feeling deflated and bad. I was not a poor musician. I was paid and making a good living. Still..... well you get it.

Now that I think back on many things. You are right. I do recall good memories when things were not horrible, but they entailed me doing exactly what she wanted. Otherwise, bar the door bc the shit is going to hit the fan. Or the fecal matter is going to hit the oscillating cooling device  .

Sometimes I thought I was being petty and that something was wrong with me. For example, when the restaurant was slammed and people were lined up out the door, she'd come up to me and say, "these plants are dry. They need water. Why cant you take care of the plants?" "Well, shit. Because I have a line of paying customers out the door and I'm selling food and they're buying it. Why don't you go water the damn plants if it is bothering you so fucking much?"

See? I feel petty bc that did get under my skin. I feel petty for letting it bother me. If it had been one isolated incident I'd probably ignore it, but it wasn't. How about "hey great business! so many customers!' NOPE.

When I saw her walking in the door I actually thought, "ohh what now."  And I felt guilty for thinking like that.

We had some good employees. One young man was honest, hard working, cared about the customers and gave a shit about the food. A good kid. All she could say over and over about him was, "he has acne. He shouldn't be serving food." WHAT THE FUCK. He was 19. Teens have acne. Jesus. Give me a break.  He wasn't serving food with his face.

Thank you all for letting me ramble. I'm sure I'm on ignore for some and I don't blame anyone one bit. I'm rambling on. Sorry. It just feels so good.

Edited February 17, 2017 by ari333

[riley702]

4 hours ago, BookWoman56 said:

I had a relative in my life who was also toxic although in different ways. And I finally realized when he died that I felt no grief whatsoever, only relief that he was dead and I never had to deal with him again. So I would ask you to consider, has your mother treated you in a way that would make you truly feel grief for the loss when she dies? Or will you just feel relieved that you never have to endure the cutting criticisms again? If it's just relief, then maybe you need to just think of her as dead to you, someone who can no longer inflict emotional pain on you.

My mother is the adult child of an alcoholic and she has told me horrifying stories about her childhood. She was the appeaser so she wouldn't get hit. She also would sleep on the floor under the bed or in the closet on paydays because he always came home drunk. Out of sight, out of mind, hopefully. Being humiliated at having to run to the neighbors again to call the police because she was afraid he was going to kill her mother this time. To this day (she's 81), she tenses up if voices get raised and rushes to smooth things over (to the detriment of us siblings clearing the air between us, I think). She is upset by family members drinking socially because she sees that as the road to hell. Growing up, we would go visit every Saturday. It took a while to realize that we were there to check on her Mom and retarded brother. And that she'd make sure we were never alone with Grandpa. When he started yelling, we'd leave. When her father died in my teens, I went to the funeral with her and was concerned because she had no expression whatsoever. I asked her if she was upset, and she told me she felt guilty that she wasn't upset. Just relieved.

Delurker, loved your anger analogy. I saw an angry person in the store today. The cashier and I just exchanged looks when they stomped out. I think I feel a bit sorry for them now.

Edited February 17, 2017 by riley702

[ari333]

2 minutes ago, riley702 said:

My mother is the adult child of an alcoholic and she has told me horrifying stories about her childhood. She was the appeaser so she wouldn't get hit. She also would sleep on the floor under the bed or in the closet on paydays because he always came home drunk. Out of sight, out of mind, hopefully. Being humiliated at having to run to the neighbors again to call the police because she was afraid he was going to kill her mother this time. To this day (she's 81), she tenses up if voices get raised and rushes to smooth things over (to the detriment of us clearing the air between us, I think). She is upset by family members drinking socially because she sees that as the road to hell. Growing up, we would go visit every Saturday. It took a while to realize that we were there to check on her Mom and retarded brother. And that she'd make sure we were never alone with Grandpa. When he started yelling, we'd leave. When her father died in my teens, I went to the funeral with her and was concerned because she had no expression whatsoever. I asked her if she was upset, and she told me she felt guilty that she wasn't upset. Just relieved.

Delurker, loved your anger analogy. I saw an angry person in the store today. The cashier and I just exchanged looks when they stomped out. I think I feel a bit sorry for them now.

Wow. I felt the pain in those words.

[ari333]

My abuse was almost always emotional and psychological and that is bad.  But physical abuse is terrifying. HUGS to you.

and your mom

[riley702]

Thank you. Mom can get irritating with the "don't argue!" thing sometimes, but knowing where she's coming from helps a lot to cut her some slack.

[ari333]

4 minutes ago, riley702 said:

Thank you. Mom can get irritating with the "don't argue!" thing sometimes, but knowing where she's coming from helps a lot to cut her some slack.

Bless her heart. She survived.

[Jaded]

On 2/2/2017 at 3:08 PM, stewedsquash said:

As a Christian I want all people to receive salvation. But I also know that I have an obligation to get out of their way in that (I won't type journey I won't type journey I won't type journey because I have come to despise the word journey, thanks all you dopey people who are telling everyone about your journey) uh, search.  Jaded, you don't owe them anything, yet a simple Thank you, as a polite response, not an acknowledgement of having any control over you, and nothing else said further, is not a bad way to respond. And then just don't respond to them anymore. If you don't want to seek out religion, that is your choice. If you do want to seek out religion, do it on your own terms. Discover what you want to do in your own way. That is how I encourage people, to be selfish in finding answers. Because it is an extremely personal thing, and shouldn't be anyone's business. 

I didn't respond to their last message that I posted with them saying how they didn't understand, that they weren't going to change, that their whole life is God and whatnot. I only asked them to quit bombarding me with religious stuff since they obviously weren't going to let up. I thought I was pretty nice about it all considering how over the line they went. I've had some people over to help with household things through a program I'm in and when I've told them about what's gone on concerning the family stuff I talked about in this thread they've all been shocked. When I get to the part about receiving a bible as a Christmas gift most of them have asked if they really did that and I'm like "Yes!". 

I've really thought about responding to that last message. I know how they are though and don't feel like opening myself up to all the questions they'd probably ask. I don't have the energy to put up with that. So far I haven't let their response bother me too much because it was what I was expecting to read and why I waited so long to tell them the truth. They made sure to focus in on the fact that I used the word "uncomfortable" to describe the way they were making me feel. The part that did peeve me off was when they implied that I was missing out on the greatest love I could ever know. I so wanted to respond by telling them that I experienced the greatest love I could ever knew from my Mom and my Nana which is part of what keeps me going since they aren't here anymore.

I'm just over always being the one to hold back my feelings so I won't hurt someone else while they don't do the same in return. I went for almost 25yrs without seeing that part of my family again and only started communicating with them through FB a few years ago. I did block them for a couple weeks from seeing anything on my FB page except old stuff they posted  while I thought things over. If nothing else happens from their end at least I got Captain out of it all. 

[ari333]

4 hours ago, Jaded said:

I didn't respond to their last message that I posted with them saying how they didn't understand, that they weren't going to change, that their whole life is God and whatnot. I only asked them to quit bombarding me with religious stuff since they obviously weren't going to let up. I thought I was pretty nice about it all considering how over the line they went. I've had some people over to help with household things through a program I'm in and when I've told them about what's gone on concerning the family stuff I talked about in this thread they've all been shocked. When I get to the part about receiving a bible as a Christmas gift most of them have asked if they really did that and I'm like "Yes!". 

I've really thought about responding to that last message. I know how they are though and don't feel like opening myself up to all the questions they'd probably ask. I don't have the energy to put up with that. So far I haven't let their response bother me too much because it was what I was expecting to read and why I waited so long to tell them the truth. They made sure to focus in on the fact that I used the word "uncomfortable" to describe the way they were making me feel. The part that did peeve me off was when they implied that I was missing out on the greatest love I could ever know. I so wanted to respond by telling them that I experienced the greatest love I could ever knew from my Mom and my Nana which is part of what keeps me going since they aren't here anymore.

I'm just over always being the one to hold back my feelings so I won't hurt someone else while they don't do the same in return. I went for almost 25yrs without seeing that part of my family again and only started communicating with them through FB a few years ago. I did block them for a couple weeks from seeing anything on my FB page except old stuff they posted  while I thought things over. If nothing else happens from their end at least I got Captain out of it all. 

Wow. I feel you so much. That's all I can say . You're not alone. Hope that helps a little bit.

[bmasters9]

On 2/16/2017 at 2:29 PM, ari333 said:

"They have steamed vegetables for an entrée. You can have that." I CAN HAVE THAT? WHAT?  I'm an adult for crying out loud DAMN. I'll get whatever the hell I want; I'll pay for it and why am I even here?

Abso-smokin-lutely! Apparently, all well and good for her to have as she will, but when you try to get something you want, she diverts you and tries to turn you otherwise (at least that's what I'm gleaning from this).

[ari333]

6 hours ago, bmasters9 said:

Abso-smokin-lutely! Apparently, all well and good for her to have as she will, but when you try to get something you want, she diverts you and tries to turn you otherwise (at least that's what I'm gleaning from this).

 

6 hours ago, bmasters9 said:

Abso-smokin-lutely! Apparently, all well and good for her to have as she will, but when you try to get something you want, she diverts you and tries to turn you otherwise (at least that's what I'm gleaning from this).

You gleaned correctly. There is something weird in my family about weight and body issues ( and sin and sex and wearing underwear that is a color other than white.) The list goes on.  I feel petty complaining, bc no one ever beat the hell out of me or something.  But I've come to realize that emotional abuse is painful as well. Sometimes I'd rather have been punched. At least that way you can see the injury.

[DeLurker]

On 2/19/2017 at 10:00 AM, ari333 said:

I feel petty complaining, bc no one ever beat the hell out of me or something.  But I've come to realize that emotional abuse is painful as well.

Don't.  There are all these faux arguments about what kind of abuse is worse, which implies one is better.  It is subjective and both change you.  IMO clearly....

I'm not sure about the concept that in order for someone to fully heal, they need to find a way to forgive first.  In my situation, it can't be done.  I've had to work hard not to fixate on it, but forgiveness is not possible.  I have had to mentally. emotionally, psychologically...just accept that what happened happened.  I used to think if I understood why he was the way he was it would allow me to solve some sort of algebra equation and I spent years trying to solve for X.  But in order to solve for X meant I had to be able to process the world in a severely unhealthy way and that wasn't healthy, or even achievable for me either.

You've described yourself in words that you are passive or at least not one to rock the boat.  But you lived the life of a musician and owned/operated your own restaurant, things that take a LOT of faith in yourself, not to mention hard work, commitment and toughing out during down times, including some completely beyond your control.  That is not the life of someone who is afraid of their own shadow - that is the life of someone who has confidence in their inner strength to ride out the storm.

You are a lot stronger person than your mom.  It is easy to lob hateful words at someone else - anyone can do that.

[ari333]

2 hours ago, DeLurker said:

sDon't.  There are all these faux arguments about what kind of abuse is worse, which implies one is better.  It is subjective and both change you.  IMO clearly....

I'm not sure about the concept that in order for someone to fully heal, they need to find a way to forgive first.  In my situation, it can't be done.  I've had to work hard not to fixate on it, but forgiveness is not possible.  I have had to mentally. emotionally, psychologically...just accept that what happened happened.  I used to think if I understood why he was the way he was it would allow me to solve some sort of algebra equation and I spent years trying to solve for X.  But in order to solve for X meant I had to be able to process the world in a severely unhealthy way and that wasn't healthy, or even achievable for me either.

You've described yourself in words that you are passive or at least not one to rock the boat.  But you lived the life of a musician and owned/operated your own restaurant, things that take a LOT of faith in yourself, not to mention hard work, commitment and toughing out during down times, including some completely beyond your control.  That is not the life of someone who is afraid of their own shadow - that is the life of someone who has confidence in their inner strength to ride out the storm.

You are a lot stronger person than your mom.  It is easy to lob hateful words at someone else - anyone can do that.

Thank you for that. I agree. I hope it doesn't seem that Im dwelling on it. It is just cathartic to read others' opinions and to share the tales of crazy with all of you.

I think I was passive only when it came to taking crap from my family. In other areas of life with other people, I was different. Here's another example, I may have mentioned it before but sometimes I recall typing a post and I delete, or the computer eats it so  - anyway. I am on time, punctual to places - work, doctors' appointments, dates, dinner with a friend etc. When it came to any event or visit with them, I was always late. Maybe part of me didn't want to go (and finally later I quit showing up) or part of it was bc I had to change clothes many times and re think every decision of hair, makeup, shoes, whatever the hell bc I knew my appearance would be scrutinized. Then of course, they'dhave one on me for being late.

When I had the restaurant I worked pretty much every day. I knew the customers and I knew the sneaky ones. I also knew how to increase the ticket and maybe sell another item. I was the one taking the orders at the cash register. My father would come and sit on a stool close to the register but not behind the counter. He could hear my exchanges with the customers. IT WAS MY RESTAUTANT AND MY JOB. Anyway, he said, "You don't need to ask customers if they want fries with their order. If they wanted fries, they'd order them." Well, I was an idiot for trying to respond, but I took the bait. First I said, "I work here every day. Sometimes when I ask , they DO order fries (or dessert etc_)and it increases the ticket.

Other times I knew my customers. One dude regularly came in, ordered a sandwich and water (no fries) and then when the employee took the food to his table he'd always say, "Where are my fries?" in order to get free fries. The drinks were the serve yourself kind and the soda made a distinct noise, plus I could see the machine from where I was. The dude always ordered water and stole a soda. It sounds like a small thing, but it was dang irritating.  If it happened once, it'd be no big deal. Anyway I tried to explain to my father that I ask that guy on purpose if he wants fries and I even said "ARE YOU SURE?" bc I knew that customer's  little scam. I'd write on the ticket NO FRIES. KEEP THIS TICKET. so the food server or I could shove it in his face that he did not pay for fries or a drink. As in, "excuse me, sir. You did not order fries or a drink. You paid for a sandwich and water."

Little stuff can be maddening and that's why I was feeling petty even mentioning it. But it feels good to share, so people can tell me I'm not crazy hehehe.

We had coupons  for discounts . I said,"QUE-pon."  My father insisted that it is "coo-pun." and would not let it go. I said that I think people understand me and that is the point. Plus, I think there is more than one way to say the damn word.

It was just so damn nit picky over dumb shit imo.

He would nag me about parking in the back of my own restaurant bc "the way the shade hits the car, it's easier on the paint job."

Me:"Dad, I leave late at night. Sometimes with money. I do NOT want to park in the back where there are bushes and someone can jump me. I'm a woman. I have other concerns. I will take care of my own paint job on the car, should  the time come that the car needs it.. "

It was like death by a thousand cuts. None of the comments alone were earth shattering, but it was like a duck pecking me to death little by little. Maybe he was just trying to help, but making a suggestion once is helpful. INSISTING over and over  that something be done a certain way annoyed me.

Edited February 20, 2017 by ari333

[Splishy Splashy]

@ari333 it seemed like your parents enjoyed annoying the hell out of you or at least trying to. Which doesn't make a damn bit of sense to me but I am not living there lives. What I am really glad though about it all is how adjusted you are about all of the shit they put you through and how you can easily talk about it all without getting upset or angry. Some of the shit that I have read that they have done to you as a young child like making you strip naked in the driveway to hose you down in front of the neighborhood because they said you were dirty would have totally traumatized me for quite a long time. And even some of the stuff you have mentioned even as you were an adult. You seem like a very strong woman and should be very proud of that. 

[ari333]

Here's one more. I hope I'm not boring. Scroll past me if I am. For those who read and comment thank you for indulging  me. :-)

There was a young employee who was a such a sweet, good kid. He was so excited that he had learned to use a computer. (yes, this was years ago and I keep recalling ancient history.) :-) He took it upon himself to  make a sign for me (for some reason; I did not ask for it) He was so proud of himself. It said, "Public restroom to the right." He printed it himself. He knew many folks asked where the restrooms were or at least some people did on occasion.  English was his second language and he was just so proud of that sign, so of course I put it up. He was thrilled.

My father came in and saw that sign and INSISTED that I remove it because, "This is NOT a 'public' restroom. These are restrooms for paying customers." Keep in mind that this was MY restaurant. I recall saying, "Dad, we do NOT have any homeless people wandering in here to use the bathrooms. I think we'll be OK and  besides Jose made the sign and is proud of it. It's staying til *I* take it down." Well, my father would not let go of that damn sign. Every fucking day, "These are NOT public restrooms. The sign says public restrooms " Oh Jesus, just pull the trigger. I used to joke and say "Well, at least it doesn't say, 'PUBIC' restrooms."  :-) I find humor where I can.

Edited February 21, 2017 by ari333

[ari333]

32 minutes ago, Splishy Splashy said:

 @Ari333 it seemed like your parents enjoyed annoying the hell out of you or at least trying to. Which doesn't make a damn bit of sense to me but I am not living there lives. What I am really glad though about it all is how adjusted you are about all of the shit they put you through and how you can easily talk about it all without getting upset or angry. Some of the shit that I have read that they have done to you as a young child like making you strip naked in the driveway to hose you down in front of the neighborhood because they said you were dirty would have totally traumatized me for quite a long time. And even some of the stuff you have mentioned even as you were an adult. You seem like a very strong woman and should be very proud of that. 

Thank you .But that hosing down was indeed so very traumatic.  That was one of  the worst things that ever happened to me. The thing is, I didn't understand, why not let me go inside? if "I'm so 'dirty?'" We had two bathrooms, two showers and a bathtub INDOORS like normal people.  That was just some sick shit.  

Sometimes I have to laugh so I wont cry. Way back in the day, my mother came over to see my new place. I invited her. I was very proud of my new place. My mother: "Well, there's a lot of red. I think you'll get tired of this color."

"Well, Mom it's been my favorite color (one of them) since I was four, so I think I'm good. And everything in your home is orange. Do you get tired of THAT?" 

Then she walked up the stairs looking at photos of family and friends that  I had framed and hung on the wall going up the stairs. "Well, you look....... YOUNGER then." Well godammit Mom everyone is younger in a photo."  

Just pull the trigger. I don't recall many more times of my asking her to visit. There was this one  dinner party that I invited them to at my home. Dont get me started. :-)

Edited February 20, 2017 by ari333

[Splishy Splashy]

19 minutes ago, ari333 said:

Here's one more. I hope I'm not boring. Scroll past me if I am. For whose who read and comment thank you for indulging  me. :-)

There was a young employee who was a such a sweet, good kid. He was so excited that he had learned to use a computer. (yes, this was years ago and I keep recalling ancient history.) :-) He took it upon himself to  make a sign for me (for some reason; I did not ask for it) He was so proud of himself. It said, "Public restroom to the right." He printed it himself. He knew many folks asked where the restrooms were or at least some people did on occasion.  English was his second language and he was just so proud of that sign, so of course I put it up. He was thrilled.

My father came in and saw that sign and INSISTED that I remove it because, "This is NOT a 'public' restroom. These are restrooms for paying customers." I recall saying, "Dad, we do NOT have any homeless people wandering in here to use the bathrooms. I think we'll be OK and  besides Jose made the sign and is proud of it. It's staying til *I* take it down." Well, my father would not let go of that damn sign. Every fucking day, "These are NOT public restrooms. The sign says public restrooms " Oh Jesus, just pull the trigger. I used to joke and say "Well, at least it doesn't say, 'PUBIC' restrooms."  :-) I find humor where I can.

I would have said to your dad, You want to take it then you take it down and you tell Jose that you took it down.

[ari333]

6 minutes ago, Splishy Splashy said:

I would have said to your dad, You want to take it then you take it down and you tell Jose that you took it down.

Hee. I see your point.

The thing is, the more my dad wanted to remove the dang sign, the more I was going to keep it up - just because.. See? I AM petty. *snort* but not really bc .. wait - it was MY restaurant. My decision! and that bugged the shit out of both of them. They couldn't control things there. They could instead just peck me to death. I think there were some serious sick control issues going on. (Ya think?)

I have never really talked about any of this before or at least not in detail.  It feels so good.

[ari333]

If my mom wasn't bitching that the restaurant plants were dry (THE HORROR that had to be attended to immediately!)  She would say that there are scratches on the floor. "Well, Mom, I have a line of people buying food. so I'll get to it later. Thanks for mentioning it."  

And Id hear every dang day about that poor kid with acne. "The kid with acne should be fired for having acne." WHAT THE FUCK?

her: "You HAVE to fire him"

Me: "Um... no I do not HAVE to do anything."

CONTROL

Sorry I'm repeating myself, but I'm on a roll. :-)

Edited February 20, 2017 by ari333

[ari333]

I guess I am looking for validation and input from you guys here bc I never had therapy or talked to people about these things. There's plenty more, but I don't want to clog up the thread more than  I already have.

Sometimes I just wanted to scream "LEAVE ME ALONE"

[Splishy Splashy]

You are correct they seem like they want to control every aspect of your life even when you are an adult. You have to realize the problem is theirs and not yours at all. You just need to go on with with you life and ignore as much of that shit as possible.

[ari333]

5 minutes ago, Splishy Splashy said:

You are correct they seem like they want to control every aspect of your life even when you are an adult. You have to realize the problem is theirs and not yours at all. You just need to go on with with you life and ignore as much of that shit as possible.

I finally moved far away and I cant even express how much that has helped me. That feels kind of sad to say, but it is what it is. There were some sick weird control issues. I haven't even scratched the surface. But it just feels so GOOD to talk about it FINALLY. I feel free to talk about it here.

[BookWoman56]

@ari333, you said you've never had therapy or talked to people about these things. Please don't take this the wrong way, but you should consider seeing a therapist who can provide some validation and input from a clinical perspective. Fundamentally, you grew up in a dysfunctional household with parents who provided a very negative framework of how you view yourself. It sounds as if they have treated you for your entire life as if you have neither the right nor the ability to make your own decisions, and have done everything they can to undermine your self-confidence. It's great that you are finally verbalizing your frustration and anger about them, but you would benefit from talking through these things with someone who can assist you in seeing not just the major ways your parents' behavior has affected your life but also the little ways. I say this as someone who went through some serious sexual abuse when I was young, thought I had handled it well and recovered, but then realized later in my life that I was engaging in some fairly self-destructive behavior that made no damn sense to me. There can be an incredible release from seeing a therapist, who is a stranger, and being able to tell him/her exactly what your parents/ spouse/ siblings/ whomever have said and done to you over time, without having to worry about your words getting back to the rest of your family and friends, or about being judged by other people.  Therapy can help you step back from the situation and see it more clearly. Finally, for me the biggest value was learning how to spot when I was starting another spiral of depression, deal with it appropriately, keep on functioning, and finally get back to a point where I enjoy my life. It enables you to internalize that you were a victim of some type of abuse, but refuse to define yourself as a victim. I don't want to go all therapy speak here, but it gives you a toolkit to use to prevent people from continuing to victimize you and to prevent you from beating yourself up about things that were out of your control. 

Please understand that my advice isn't based in any way on trying to assess your mental health or state of mind. Simply put, though, anyone who has had to deal with the ongoing bullshit you have from your parents would need some therapy and counseling to deal with these issues fully. You have endured some serious emotional abuse from your parents, and you need to focus on minimizing the damage from that abuse as best you can. Therapy is an excellent way to assist in the damage control.

[ratgirlagogo]

3 hours ago, DeLurker said:

I'm not sure about the concept that in order for someone to fully heal,  they need to find a way to forgive first.  In my situation, it can't be done.  I've had to work hard not to fixate on it, but forgiveness is not possible.  I have had to mentally. emotionally, psychologically...just accept that what happened happened

There is a school of thought here (Dr Mario Martinez, et. al.) that would say that you have already done the important part of the forgiving, in that you have forgiven YOURSELF.  It's not logical or fair but people who have suffered an injury from another often (unconsciously sometimes) feel ashamed, maybe even are made to feel ashamed by others, that they were not able to defend themselves.  That's square one and it seems like you're there and beyond.  But it's not surprising that it's a tall order for most of us to get there.

[ari333]

Just now, BookWoman56 said:

@ari333, you said you've never had therapy or talked to people about these things. Please don't take this the wrong way, but you should consider seeing a therapist who can provide some validation and input from a clinical perspective. Fundamentally, you grew up in a dysfunctional household with parents who provided a very negative framework of how you view yourself. It sounds as if they have treated you for your entire life as if you have neither the right nor the ability to make your own decisions, and have done everything they can to undermine your self-confidence. It's great that you are finally verbalizing your frustration and anger about them, but you would benefit from talking through these things with someone who can assist you in seeing not just the major ways your parents' behavior has affected your life but also the little ways. I say this as someone who went through some serious sexual abuse when I was young, thought I had handled it well and recovered, but then realized later in my life that I was engaging in some fairly self-destructive behavior that made no damn sense to me. There can be an incredible release from seeing a therapist, who is a stranger, and being able to tell him/her exactly what your parents/ spouse/ siblings/ whomever have said and done to you over time, without having to worry about your words getting back to the rest of your family and friends, or about being judged by other people.  Therapy can help you step back from the situation and see it more clearly. Finally, for me the biggest value was learning how to spot when I was starting another spiral of depression, deal with it appropriately, keep on functioning, and finally get back to a point where I enjoy my life. It enables you to internalize that you were a victim of some type of abuse, but refuse to define yourself as a victim. I don't want to go all therapy speak here, but it gives you a toolkit to use to prevent people from continuing to victimize you and to prevent you from beating yourself up about things that were out of your control. 

Please understand that my advice isn't based in any way on trying to assess your mental health or state of mind. Simply put, though, anyone who has had to deal with the ongoing bullshit you have from your parents would need some therapy and counseling to deal with these issues fully. You have endured some serious emotional abuse from your parents, and you need to focus on minimizing the damage from that abuse as best you can. Therapy is an excellent way to assist in the damage control.

Thank you and I totally see your points. You are right on all counts. Thank you for caring enough to respond in that sweet way. I agree. I just don't think I can do therapy bc I guess I'm afraid I wont be believed. IT ALL SOUNDS INSANE. Frankly, just venting here has helped me more with the responses and caring comments -more good feelings that I've had in years about this stuff.  I do see your points. And I never take your helpful advice in the wrong way. I like it.

[Splishy Splashy]

I am glad you are able to get some of this off your chest and now that you have distanced yourself from them and that is helping as well.

[ari333]

Ok I'll say it. I'm seriously afraid that I wont be believed in any therapy bc it all sounds CRAZY. I would not believe it unless I had seen it and heard it for myself.

1 minute ago, Splishy Splashy said:

I am glad you are able to get some of this off your chest and now that you have distanced yourself from them and that is helping as well.

"getting it off my chest" are exactly the right words.

[Splishy Splashy]

@ari333 control issues is something a therapist probably deals with everyday and something you really shouldn't be afraid to speak to a professional about. It is a cool to vent it out here and get it off your chest, but really I am just a kid giving advice and the others I doubt are professionals as well and really that is what you need after all the years you have gone through this. Just my two cents.

[ari333]

This venting from me  here (and the responses from you sweet people) is probably saving my soul. That sounds sad, but true.

[Splishy Splashy]

8 minutes ago, ari333 said:

This venting from me  here (and the responses from you sweet people) is probably saving my soul. That sounds sad, but true.

That is awesome, but like I said I am just a kid and not a professional and my advice and comments can only really go so far.

[ari333]

I'm so relieved that you people see the cray in these stories. I've seen the crazy for years. But it was many times so subtle . That's what makes me doubt myself. It makes me feel petty.  It is subtle, but stinging, and I just got sick of it.

And it wasnt' just me. My bf (7 yrs, happy) refuses to go there ever EVER  and I do not blame him. I refuse to go without him bc he is my buffer. So I'm just not going.

[BookWoman56]

24 minutes ago, ari333 said:

Ok I'll say it. I'm seriously afraid that I wont be believed in any therapy bc it all sounds CRAZY. I would not believe it unless I had seen it and heard it for myself.

"getting it off my chest" are exactly the right words.

By and large, therapists have heard stuff that, sad to say, sounds and is crazier than yours. There are some seriously fucked up people out there doing damage to anyone who happens to get in their way. You know how you periodically hear those stories of some kid being found confined to a closet for years? Sounds crazy and hard to believe, but I have a dear friend who while in foster care as an adolescent spent a year confined to a bedroom, not allowed to attend school, go outside, or live like a human being, before he finally escaped. He was terrified that the cops would not believe him, but one cop was decent enough to track down a distant relative who agreed to take him in. The worst part of it, IMO, was that it ended up in a legal detente because when the relative threatened to file charges against the foster parents, they threatened to claim that my friend had sexually assaulted their daughter. So everybody agreed to just walk away with no charges being filed. There are not harsh enough words for how I feel about those foster parents. But my point is that yes, therapists have heard stuff that on the surface sounds completely crazy and yet happened. They understand full well that there are people walking around who may look normal but underneath are very twisted. 

[Splishy Splashy]

9 minutes ago, ari333 said:

I'm so relieved that you people see the cray in these stories. I've seen the crazy for years. But it was many times so subtle . That's what makes me doubt myself. It makes me feel petty.  It is subtle, but stinging, and I just got sick of it.

And it wasnt' just me. My bf (7 yrs, happy) refuses to go there ever EVER  and I do not blame him. I refuse to go without him bc he is my buffer. So I'm just not going.

That is totally your decision and I can respect that. I am glad you are getting some comfort from the peeps here as that is awesome. I want to tell you I will be here to listen and to lend a comment of encouragement or opinion when I can and I hope it will help. Hell I never know when I'll need to vent about a relationship or something like that.

[ari333]

BW56if I can ask, what self destructive behavior  did you engage in?  That sounds super personal  so youcan ignore the question.

and your words, "very twisted" upthread - hit the nail on the head.

[Lisin]

@ari333 trust me, therapists have heard way crazier shit. They're not a judge wanting to see if something is true. They're there to listen and help you come up with ways to deal with your feelings. It isn't even really relevant whether things are "true" if you feel them. 

[ari333]

3 minutes ago, Splishy Splashy said:

That is totally your decision and I can respect that. I am glad you are getting some comfort from the peeps here as that is awesome. I want to tell you I will be here to listen and to lend a comment of encouragement or opinion when I can and I hope it will help. Hell I never know when I'll need to vent about a relationship or something like that.

it all helps. I held this shit in for years.  Talking (posting) helps - just having another human chime in helps.

1 minute ago, Lisin said:

@ari333 trust me, therapists have heard way crazier shit. They're not a judge wanting to see if something is true. They're there to listen and help you come up with ways to deal with your feelings. It isn't even really relevant whether things are "true" if you feel them. 

Ok you guys are helping me rethink this. Thank you. Hugs.

[DeLurker]

1 hour ago, Splishy Splashy said:

You are correct they seem like they want to control every aspect of your life even when you are an adult. You have to realize the problem is theirs and not yours at all. You just need to go on with with you life and ignore as much of that shit as possible.

You must have what they call an old soul, because your input has the maturity and thoughtfulness of someone who has seen more than 17 years suggests.

1 hour ago, ratgirlagogo said:

There is a school of thought here (Dr Mario Martinez, et. al.) that would say that you have already done the important part of the forgiving, in that you have forgiven YOURSELF.  It's not logical or fair but people who have suffered an injury from another often (unconsciously sometimes) feel ashamed, maybe even are made to feel ashamed by others, that they were not able to defend themselves.  That's square one and it seems like you're there and beyond.  But it's not surprising that it's a tall order for most of us to get there.

Thank you for saying that...no one has ever framed it that way. 

[Splishy Splashy]

22 minutes ago, DeLurker said:

You must have what they call an old soul, because your input has the maturity and thoughtfulness of someone who has seen more than 17 years suggests.

Thank you for saying that...no one has ever framed it that way. 

When it comes to certain things like trying to help others my parents have always taught me to be considerate and thoughtful to others needs. There are many times I do a lot of shit that my parents and other adults just shake there heads at.

[BookWoman56]

44 minutes ago, Lisin said:

@ari333 trust me, therapists have heard way crazier shit. They're not a judge wanting to see if something is true. They're there to listen and help you come up with ways to deal with your feelings. It isn't even really relevant whether things are "true" if you feel them. 

Exactly. Therapists aren't going to demand evidence of what shit has happened. They instead just listen to you talk about that shit and how it made you feel, then help you explore the effects it has had on your life and how you can change your life if you want to.

@ari333 on a general level, my self-destructive behavior was staying in bad relationships way longer than I should have, because I just became numb to the badness around me. My second marriage was to someone who developed a serious substance abuse problem, and I stupidly thought I could fix his problem if I treated him well enough. Learned the hard way that  you can't help someone who doesn't want help. As his addiction got worse, I just retreated from contact with everyone, and quit caring. The breaking point for that relationship came when I was so detached from feeling anything that I carved the word "Death," using a razor blade, into my arm. Not in a life-threatening way (did not even leave any permanent physical scars) but in a Trent Reznor first lines of Hurt way (I hurt myself today/To see if I still feel). And as embarrassing as it is to recall that incident, that was my wake-up call that I needed not only to get out of the relationship but to figure out WTH I had let things reach that level. At that time, I was so caught up in depression that I needed anti-depressants for a while, but it was the therapy that enabled me to understand why I was punishing myself, so to speak, by staying involved with someone who was bad for me, and to quit doing that shit.

[JTMacc99]

2 hours ago, BookWoman56 said:

ari333, you said you've never had therapy or talked to people about these things. Please don't take this the wrong way, but you should consider seeing a therapist who can provide some validation and input from a clinical perspective.

Best thing I ever did for myself. Can't even think of a second best. 

[ParadoxLost]

I'm getting to that age where the grandparents, parents, and aunts/uncles of you and everyone in your peer group starts to get ill (dementia, cancer, and heart disease/strokes, etc.) and begins to pass away.  I don't like it and I want it to stop.

[ari333]

It was the crazy-making that bugged me so much, and then they'd act like it was totally normal and *I* was nuts.  I have not seen them since 2011. My dad was sweet to me at that time. Age has mellowed him (slightly).  My mother started in on me, so I just left. I keep thinking of that Seinfeld episode where they spoke of, "the airing of the grievances. "  I hadn't seen them in a long while at that point (2011) > After I hugged her, she started in on me and things that were "wrong" with me.

"OK. gotta go." 

Here's one that still puzzles me. This is not new. It's been years, but I just don't get it; maybe I should  stop trying to understand.  

My parents invited my date/friend and me to dinner at their home. I accepted the invitation (first mistake). I told them that his name is Mohamed. He doesn't eat pork. I think my mom said, "how nice" or some weird comment.

So we arrive at their home. What is the main dish? A huge ham.  There were plenty of veggies, so I thought, "well, ok then. " Then my father started calling Mohamed - "Moo-HAM-ed." I said, "Dad, his name is Mohamed." (Mo-HAH-med)

"Well, it has an "A" in there so it's Moo HAM ed."

(In my head -Oh, Jesus pull the trigger. Why did I come here?)

"Dad, it's the same 'A' sound as in the word father. I think you can pronounce it correctly."

So then my dad said to him - I'm paraphrasing, but you get the gist - "You eat vegetables, don't you?"

Mohamed said, "Yes"

"Well, get yourself a big ole scoop of those green beans."  I told Mohamed, DON'T

The beans were cooked in pork. I KNEW IT. MY DAD KNEW it . My mother knew. She cooked it always that way. He was trying to "trick" my friend into eating pork.

We left.  

Another time my father started calling MY attorney and actually said, "You HAVE to do this.." (such and such) My atty said to him,  "I don't HAVE to do anything for you. YOU ARE NOT MY CLIENT. Your daughter is my client and it is HER restaurant. "  Then my atty called me, told me what happened and said, "(my name here) I don't know how you survived those people" (my parents.)

Edited February 21, 2017 by ari333

[ari333]

There was some sick twisted shit. One time my parents invited my then-bf and me to go look at Christmas lights around the city. Sounds good. What can go wrong? My parents had a huge van so they wanted to take their van as opposed to my car for the four of us. (In retrospect I can see now that my father wanted to be in control) My dad was driving. We were out for quite a while. We were enjoying huge glasses of tea.. My bf mentioned that he needed to go to the restroom . So can we make a quick stop? The man needed to pee after hours in the damn van. My father ignored him. After my bf mentioned it, my father just kept driving and driving past all kinds of gas stations and restrooms. "Hey, dad, do you think you can stop the car?" DAMN. 

"Well, we'll get to it."

He heard my bf. It's not like he didn't hear.

Edited February 21, 2017 by ari333

[ari333]

double post. sorry.

Edited February 21, 2017 by ari333

[Splishy Splashy]

@ari333 I think if it was me your parents would be on the verge of never coming in contact with me again. They have done and treated you like shit for so many years of your life I think it is time for you to say enough is enough and if that is never seeing them again than so be it. For your own sanity that just might be what you have to do. That does sound pretty harsh and I know it would probably be really hard, but sometimes I think you have to start thinking about you. I wish I could post more but I am in school on my phone and I am not suppose to be on my phone and I could get in trouble and have it taken away for the day. So that is all for now.

[ari333]

4 hours ago, Splishy Splashy said:

@ari333 I think if it was me your parents would be on the verge of never coming in contact with me again. They have done and treated you like shit for so many years of your life I think it is time for you to say enough is enough and if that is never seeing them again than so be it. For your own sanity that just might be what you have to do. That does sound pretty harsh and I know it would probably be really hard, but sometimes I think you have to start thinking about you. I wish I could post more but I am in school on my phone and I am not suppose to be on my phone and I could get in trouble and have it taken away for the day. So that is all for now.

Thank you, Splishy. Someone upthread said that you are an old soul I agree, mature beyond your years..

I haven't been there since 2011 and even then I only stayed a few minutes before my mother started in on me, so I left. Many of the things they do and say are so strange and kind of small. But it still matters.

This movie is way before your time and kind of 20ish years before my time too, but it was called, "Gaslight." Sometimes that is how I feel. Like things are happening.  I see it and hear it. And they deny it right to my face.

Any little mistake is logged in their memory bank and repeated ad nauseum . "(My name here) always loses her keys. " I lost my keys once when I was 17. But apparently once  constitutes, "always."

"Remember when the car caught on fire and (my name here) ran like a chicken?" Wow I wouldn't be bragging and regaling folks  that the car caught fire with a kid in it, but what do I know.

The last Christmas that I showed up there was 1997. Yep. I just couldn't take it anymore. So I don't. During those years I would visit at other times, just not Christmas.  And my mother reminds me every damn time I call. "You don't come for Christmas" Ask yourself why.  And no one else comes either. My brother will show up every three or four years- enough to keep him in the will. And he stays in a hotel. Cant blame him there. They have a huge house in an affluent neighborhood and a gorgeous pool .I love the water, but have have never put my toe in that pool. You can guess why.

 Another poster upthread mentioned a martyr mother. That fits here too. That got old fast.

Also, why should I show up  at a function where my appearance will be scrutinized, my food will be leered at , and who knows what weird shit they will say to my date or bf - so the man wants to run from the crazy?

It was 1997 (yes I'm going back in time, but I need to share this stuff)

We were at the Christmas dinner table. In front of my date, my father said, "Watch your hand . You're going to spill that glass of water" as if I was six fucking years old. I was 36 years old . And btw, my hand was nowhere near the water glass . Why did he say it? Because ONCE when I was a little kid I spilled half a glass of milk at the table and my mother went ballistic. She jerked me by the arm, swung me around the kitchen,  and screamed, "YOU ARE THE SLOPPIEST CHILD ON EARTH"..... on earth. 

We were opening gifts and I got a sweater and a blouse and etc. I heard, "When you lose some weight you can get some NICE clothes." Oh really? I'll go buy my own damn clothes now.  I am 5' 6" and at the time weighed 140. Not HUGE.

You guys are right. I need some fucking therapy. Don't know if I can afford it at the moment ,but I will check into it.

My dad didn't escape her wrath either. He stopped buying any gifts for her  bc he never "got it right." He just checked out. After years of them screaming at each other on holidays, he didn't participate in any holiday stuff (and I eventually stopped too) bc, for example,  putting up the tree was a fucking nightmare. It had to be perfect and you know who was deciding what the perfect was.  It was exhausting. It SHOULD BE FUN. IT WAS NOT.

Sorry for the rant. I cant stop myself it seems. :) this stuff has been bottled up in me for years.

Edited February 21, 2017 by ari333

[ari333]

Sorry you guys. Please indulge me for another thing. I'll try to shutty and cut down on the ranting.

My brother is a raging open racist. When he was 18 he  had a Doberman pinscher dog. He trained the dog to lurch, snap and bark at black people . He thought it was hilarious. I was APPALLED AND HORRIFIED. The most fucking scary part is that he is in law enforcement. HATEFULL EVIL MAN. Sorry I have to say it. He is old and almost retired. thank you god.

He proudly displayed that damn confederate flag  on his wall . Well,, you get the idea. My mother is a racist too. My father is as well, but he tries to hide it. It slips out. I wondered at times if I were adopted bc I am so different from my family. Then I wondered if I saw how horrible these things were and made a choice to do a 180 and be totally different from them. Am I making sense?  FWIW I'm not adopted. I look in the mirror. I look exactly like them and especially like my grandmother. I see her face when she was 70 ish which is kind of a bummer since I'm only 55.

I dated a black man who was good to me. I married an Arabic Muslim who was good to me. I am currently with a Latino who I love so much.  I did not get the racist gene. Thank you, universe.

And I maybe need to add, my parents are not hicks. Yes,  they were born poor  in the country in the 30s but they  have college degrees. You'd think they'd know better. ...and what the hell is the excuse for my brother and his rampant racism?  well let me stop there. That is very fucked up.

Edited February 21, 2017 by ari333

[DeLurker]

One of the things I found extremely helpful in therapy was that through working with me and my children, the therapist got a decent idea about my ex/their dad.  She was able to mention some books that I might find helpful with dealing with someone who had similar issues as he did (she made sure to say she wasn't able to diagnose him because she had never met him, but based on our representations she would say people with X, Y or Z exhibit similar characteristics).

It helped me in being able to step back from the individual/personal and view things from the abstract.  And it helped me to disengage as much as I could (despite having two kids together) and give me a better insight as to what they were dealing with because he was the dad. 

[ari333]

2 minutes ago, DeLurker said:

One of the things I found extremely helpful in therapy was that through working with me and my children, the therapist got a decent idea about my ex/their dad.  She was able to mention some books that I might find helpful with dealing with someone who had similar issues as he did (she made sure to say she wasn't able to diagnose him because she had never met him, but based on our representations she would say people with X, Y or Z exhibit similar characteristics).

It helped me in being able to step back from the individual/personal and view things from the abstract.  And it helped me to disengage as much as I could (despite having two kids together) and give me a better insight as to what they were dealing with because he was the dad. 

thank you. My way of disengaging is staying the hell away. I did think I could reconnect by calls (no visits) and I thought there was hope. People mellow when they get old sometimes. It seems my dad has mellowed toward me with age . (not others, especially if they are another color, religion etc) That is hard to stomach bc I just dont get it. My mother is more blatant with racial slurs.. My brother is just plain intolerable.

[DisneyBoy]

Quote

 

This movie is way before your time and kind of 20ish years before my time too, but it was called, "Gaslight." Sometimes that is how I feel. Like things are happening.  I see it and hear it. And they deny it right to my face.

Any little mistake is logged in their memory bank and repeated ad nauseum . "(My name here)always loses her keys. " I lost my keys once when I was 17. But apparently once  constitutes, "always."

"Remember when the car caught on fire and (my name here) ran like a chicken?" Wow I wouldn't be bragging and regaling folks  that the car caught fire with a kid in it, but what do I know.

 

Firstly, I just read your story in the other thread not 5 minutes ago and was amused to discover you posting here. Feel no shame about your chicken run! You survived the exploding car - I think that's what matters!

As for your mother, I went through something similar with my own mom where she began to pick on certain things and make them into arguments when they weren't really issues (with me) at all. I was always the one who enjoyed washing dishes after the meal and made a point of chipping in without having to be asked, but I had a habit of always having a snack late at night and leaving one plate and a spoon in the sink. This deeply upset her and began what became an endless stream of arguments about how I "always" left dirty dishes and was a slob. I obviously wasn't and couldn't fathom how this had become a problem in our relationship. At least I wasn't one of those kids who kept dirty dishes in their room, right?

Then, there was the matter of the Tupperware containers that I brought my lunch to school in. I never deliberately misplaced one and can't think of a single time when I didn't come home from school with the exact same containers I left the house with, but somehow containers disappeared at some point and my mother decided that I could not be trusted with the Tupperware. I fully admit I can be scatterbrained about some things, but taking a tupperware out of a lunch bag, eating its contents and then immediately putting it back in the lunch bag is as simple as it gets. There really was no opportunity for me to misplace the Tupperware...but that didn't seem to matter. And so, I enjoyed many rants about how expensive the Tupperware were to replace and how a cavalier I was being with her possessions etcetera, etcetera.

In time, I eventually realized that these arguments weren't so much about the Tupperware or the dishes, but rather about how she felt she was being treated by the family overall. I'm betting a lot of mothers and wives transfer their frustrations onto smaller issues when they feel they helpless to change other things in their lives. Of course I completely understand that missing Tupperware is annoying as are dirty dishes, but you honestly wouldn't believe how much time was spent agonizing over these two subjects to the detriment of our relationship. I suspect a lot of families have these kinds of meaningless arguments. It's best to try to address the deeper issues, and if you can't....then just try and keep a certain perspective on what's really going on just to maintain your sanity....

Edited February 21, 2017 by DisneyBoy