S01.E12: Lallybroch

[GHScorpiosRule]

I haven't seen it yet (tonight is the night), but I thought that Ned had sent word to Jaime about the trial, but he didn't think Jamie would make it back in time.

 

As for Jamie's age...well, in the book, after they're married, it's revealed he's 23 to her 27, but y'all are saying they, made him a year younger to show how young he is, I guess?

[ulkis]

I haven't seen it yet (tonight is the night), but I thought that Ned had sent word to Jaime about the trial, but he didn't think Jamie would make it back in time.

 

As for Jamie's age...well, in the book, after they're married, it's revealed he's 23 to her 27, but y'all are saying they, made him a year younger to show how young he is, I guess?

 

doesn't she turn 28 while he's still 23? I was under the impression he was 5 years younger so I guess maybe the writers were too? I dunno.

[GHScorpiosRule]

doesn't she turn 28 while he's still 23? I was under the impression he was 5 years younger so I guess maybe the writers were too? I dunno.

 

 

I have NO idea, ulkis. As I'm just at the part after they've been married in the book, and met the mute Highlander.  

[chocolatetruffle]

As I recall, she turns 28 the day he takes her to the stones (or the day she confesses, can't exactly remember which).  I just remember him telling her Happy Birthday because that day is Oct 21st. 

[JennyMominFL]

So that was all Tobias 

http://primetime.unrealitytv.co.uk/outlander-spoilers-tobias-menzies-reveals-black-jacks-willy-is-all-his/

[Colored Francie]

Something I've wondered since reading the book. We understand from Claire that Black Jack can't get it up unless he's causing someone pain. Why, then, would he ask Jamie if he would go to bed with him? Should we believe that, in certain instances, Black Jack can get it up on his own, without torture or coercion?

 

If Jamie had acquiesced, would Black Jack have had to make it feel like a rape to go through with it? Or would the knowledge that Jamie didn't really want it be enough for him to get turned on?

[GHScorpiosRule]

Because Black Jack is a fucking liar. No way he wouldn't have used violence to get himself off. I think he knew Jamie would not have given himself over to that ratbastard of a fuckwit.

 

That said...

 

Finally watched it last night and I LOVED it. I'm sooooo watching it again. And who was it that said that Drunk!Jamie was hilarious, but Hungover!Jamie was even more hilarious? Because it's sooooo truuuuuuuu!!!!!!

 

I really liked Jenny. And since I never got around to reading Book!Jenny, I can't very well say if Show!Jenny is better or not. Loved Ian.

 

And I'm wondering how many times they had to shoot that scene in the water with the mill, because Sam sounded like he'd gotten a cold throughout this episode.

 

And I jus' Looooooove the way Sam/Jamie say "Aye" and "No". I TOTALLY hear his voice when I'm reading, and Cait's as Claire.

 

And yay! A FULL Gaelic word I UNDERSTOOD "Slainte!" that I didna ha' tae Google, ye ken?

Edited April 28, 2015 by GHScorpiosRule

[CatMack]

Something I've wondered since reading the book. We understand from Claire that Black Jack can't get it up unless he's causing someone pain. Why, then, would he ask Jamie if he would go to bed with him? Should we believe that, in certain instances, Black Jack can get it up on his own, without torture or coercion?

 

If Jamie had acquiesced, would Black Jack have had to make it feel like a rape to go through with it? Or would the knowledge that Jamie didn't really want it be enough for him to get turned on?

 

He wouldn't have to "make it feel" like rape because it's still rape.  Blackmailing someone into not fighting back doesn't make for actual consent.  It's psychological torture.  Jackcould still hurt him physically, but he can also taunt him and screw with his head and Jamie can't fight back.  Which is of course exactly what ends up happening at Wentworth.

[AheadofStraight]

 

And I'm wondering how many times they had to shoot that scene in the water with the mill, because Sam sounded like he'd gotten a cold throughout this episode.

 

I kept getting distracted by how his nose sounded stuffy to me, heh. Poor guy, that water must have been ridiculously cold. 

 

I'm now using "Caq!"  (no idea how to spell it) as my new swear word. 

[ulkis]

I kept getting distracted by how his nose sounded stuffy to me, heh. Poor guy, that water must have been ridiculously cold. 

 

I'm now using "Caq!"  (no idea how to spell it) as my new swear word. 

 

closed captioning spelled it "cack"

[GHScorpiosRule]

closed captioning spelled it "cack"

 

But closed captioning doesna alway git it reight, ye ken! 'Tis why I use Google, hee!

[ulkis]

I googled it just now, looks right. :)

[WatchrTina]

 

He wouldn't have to "make it feel" like rape because it's still rape.  Blackmailing someone into not fighting back doesn't make for actual consent.  It's psychological torture.  Jackcould still hurt him physically, but he can also taunt him and screw with his head and Jamie can't fight back.  Which is of course exactly what ends up happening at Wentworth.

Exactly!  And now I have stuck in my head the scene that would have played out -- Black Jack, "making himself ready" while gazing at Jamie's back -- all torn from the first lashing.  

 

OMG I'm not looking forward to the Wentworth scenes.

[ScotchnSoda]

As to Jamie's and Claire's age difference: the show story started in October whereas the book story started in May. There is a 6-month difference which accounts that she is 27 and 28 during the 12-mo period he is 23. This difference in start dates also impacts the seasons of the show. The Wentworth book story derives a lot of drama because of the snow and bitter cold. And the Abby scenes were in winter, too, making for the delight of the warm spring scene. Wonder how the show episodes will depict these events.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Okay, so who was the guy that had Jamie at sword point? gunpoint? at the end? Was it someone we've seen/met before, because he didn't look at all familiar to me.

 

Then again, I've been doing a lot of back-to-back marathoning of several shows during this show's hiatus.

[AheadofStraight]

There is speculation that 

they are from The Watch. This episode is supposed to be completely different than the book. In fact, the description of it says that Jamie and Ian *join* The Watch, which is...bizarre.

[GHScorpiosRule]

I hear

The Watch

and my mind immediately goes to Game of Thrones, which, NO. It shouldn't do that.

[bluebonnet]

So that was all Tobias 

http://primetime.unrealitytv.co.uk/outlander-spoilers-tobias-menzies-reveals-black-jacks-willy-is-all-his/

All I noticed during the willy shots was that his grooming was very anachronistic.  Should have glued some hair onto his balls for the sake of realism.  

Edited April 28, 2015 by bluebonnet

[Nidratime]

All I noticed during the willy shots was that his grooming was very anachronistic.  Should have glued some hair onto his balls for the sake of realism.

 

 

Tobias is a nice looking guy, but no way in hell would I have wanted that job!

[ElsieH]

So, I'm kind of torn about this one. I really didn't like the way they left it last week, didn't like the way the scene at the stones was handled, and didn't like the way it was unclear exactly why Claire would stay. I was also mad that they left out the line, is there really nothing here for me Jamie? Because if they had put that in, it might have made more sense. So then we get to this one, where I was hoping some discussion would be had,  including the line about how the hot baths nearly won or something. But they skipped right over it, and it's not until the end that they included the stuff about why Jamie wanted to marry her. I also didn't understand the open hostility Jenny had towards Claire, it seemed way more over the top than what was in the books and unnecessary. There were good things too, so I guess I did like it better, but I just don't know. Even my husband is getting frustrated with it, because as he put it "they never catch a break, it's exhausting". Well, I hate to tell him, but that never goes away. It's just that in the books they were at Lallybroch for what, a month or something? So there was peace and normal life that the show doesn't have time to get into. But they could easily do even that with one of Claire's many voice overs "the next month we settled into a routine, and enjoyed life blah blah blah". I guess knowing that the rest of the episodes will be highly unpleasant is what has me disappointed with the one bright spot that is there in the books where they were kind of happy and settled for a bit, I don't know. At any rate, the rest of the season will be tough. But of course I'll still be watching.

[chocolatetruffle]

ElsieH, I totally understand your frustration with some of the show's choices about what to leave out or include from the book.  I try to take the show as a separate entity, kind of a re-imagining of events in the book.  From that perspective I think this episode was a good one as the pace slowed down and we were able to get some good relationship and character building that sets up the remainder of the story.  Yes, they make missteps:  not having Claire ask Jaime if there really is nothing for her there was one because that question raises the stakes by making his walking away even more heartbreaking if he knows that she's torn up emotionally; it also makes it clear that Claire really has deep feelings for Jaime and this decision is truly a difficult one.  For the most part, the actors have done an amazing job in filling in the blanks for us book readers who know what the blanks should be.

 

Having said that, however, I think you make a good point about non-book readers who have no idea what those blanks should be and are therefore lost or confused about events and choices.  The fact that Claire's staying is viewed as ambiguous is wrong for the rest of the story and that lies solely on the showrunners.

 

You also make a good point about the ridiculous need to put J&C in constant peril - never catching a break as your husband so aptly put it.  It frustrates me to no end.  I had hoped that the two episodes at Lallybrook would be paced similar to the episodes at Castle Leoch in the first half of the season, where there were lots of interesting things going on w/o the need for constant peril.  But based on the previews for next week

they have invented another threat less than a week after J&C's arrival, that's not even in the book.

 This truly is exhausting (and lazy writing), especially with the nastiness that is to come. 

Edited April 29, 2015 by chocolatetruffle

[ElsieH]

I think that is what is bothering me. I like the first half of the season SO much more than this one so far. And it's not about what they included or not in that half anyway, I liked the additions and changes. I think it's that they ended the season before even the halfway point in the book (my Kindle says 43%), and there is way too much from there on to cram into 8 episodes. So they have to pick and choose, I get it. I just think they are leaving out some of the smaller details they should include and wasting time with extra things that really aren't adding much (that we know of yet), like alllll those witnesses at the witch trial.

[mledawn]

Crossposted to Outlander in the Media, but since it pertains to activities in this episode, I'll put it here.

I found this article thanks to one of the other threads: Diana Gabaldon clarifies Black Jack Randall's Sexual Orientation

 

It's basically a cut and paste of Diana's own facebook page but echoes what many have said here - it's not about orientation but power/sadism.

[Abhainn]

closed captioning spelled it "cack"

The word would be "cac" -- there's no "q" or "k" in Gàidhlig  :)   Edited to add:   no "j", "v", "w", "x", "y" or "z"  -  unless there are "modern" words that have no equivilent in Gàidhlig because they just didn't exist.

Edited May 4, 2015 by SilverStormm
Fixed quote box issue.

[WatchrTina]

I'm doing a mini-marathon as I want for the finale to become available On Demand and I just noticed something new (to me) during the mill pond scene.  In he book (and in the show) the point is made repeatedly that Claire has a "glass face" -- or the opposite of a poker face.  Everyone can tell what she is thinking.  When the redcoats ride up Jenny pastes a simpering smile on her face but Claire looks upset and worried throughout the scene.

 

This trait is seen again in later episodes.  

Given that we know this about Claire it makes it all the more impressive when she is called up on to play the part of the disinterested family friend in episode 115 "Wentworth" and it's no wonder that we, the audience, see her mask slip when she is left alone for a moment during her interview with Sir Fletcher. We also see it in episode 114, The Search when she's taking her bows and her smile fades as she searches the audience for Jamie.

[Hybiscus]

I'm doing a mini-marathon as I want for the finale to become available On Demand and I just noticed something new (to me) during the mill pond scene.  In he book (and in the show) the point is made repeatedly that Claire has a "glass face" -- or the opposite of a poker face.  Everyone can tell what she is thinking.  When the redcoats ride up Jenny pastes a simpering smile on her face but Claire looks upset and worried throughout the scene.

 

This trait is seen again in later episodes.  

Given that we know this about Claire it makes it all the more impressive when she is called up on to play the part of the disinterested family friend in episode 115 "Wentworth" and it's no wonder that we, the audience, see her mask slip when she is left alone for a moment during her interview with Sir Fletcher. We also see it in episode 114, The Search when she's taking her bows and her smile fades as she searches the audience for Jamie.

As someone who has a "glass face," it isn't all that surprising that Claire can fake it with Sir Fletcher.  When you have time to prepare for the encounter, you can make the fake-out work.  When it's an immediate reaction to circumstances, forget about it.

[Petunia846]

The Scot and the Sassenach folks have talked all season about how Show!Claire doesn't have a glass face. I think it started with "The Garrison Commander" when she makes up that story for Jack about her husband deserting her, but it might have been earlier like where she's sneaking around by playing with the kids during "The Gathering". I don't know if you listen to that podcast, but they discuss Claire's lying abilities a lot.

[WatchrTina]

The marvelous atom1cflea on tumbler is getting caught up on her photo recaps.  Here's the one for Lallybroch.

 

http://atom1cflea.tumblr.com/post/123734616606/outlander-recap-112-lallybroch

[Kim0820]

On 4/25/2015 at 11:29 PM, WatchrTina said:

I also particularly liked the scene between Jamie and Claire when he gave her some instruction on how to be the Lady of the Manor.  I liked it because at first it looked like they were both going to slip back into old patterns but then Jamie offered the example of Letitia (which was smart) and he also reminded her that this was his family, his land and (whispered) his time.  That was REALLY smart because it was true AND it reminded Claire that he had trusted her about something really big and now it was her turn to trust him about how they must behave as Lord and Lady of the manor.  

I was wondering why he has to tell her that - she's the time traveler, so you'd think she'd get a clue.  However, she is feisty and maybe her 20th century husband wouldn't like it either - in the 1940s, women were not as liberated as now.  Recalling the spanking, I think there were mid-20th century men who would have done that (in an episode of I Love Lucy, Ricky puts Lucy over his knee and spanks here, comedic of course) and Claire is a woman who would have fought then too, or in any century.  

On 4/25/2015 at 11:37 PM, CatMack said:

Claire's reasoning for staying, stuff like that which is laid out clearly in the books and glossed over by the show.  It's a problem.  But I am a book reader, and I've seen adaptations that are much, much worse than this, so while it's still a problem it's not one that affects my enjoyment level very much.  Not yet, anyway.  

 

This was the first episode with zero voiceovers, wasn't it?  They've been used a lot more sparingly the last couple eps, but there were a few.  I don't recall a single one this time.  

 

I was wondering why she stayed.  Did the stones not work?  Or did she think over - looks like she was there all day - that she didn't know what the stones would do and could throw her into another time completely.  All she knows is that they put people in the 1740s no matter when they went (Geillis came from 1968, so maybe they throw you back to the 1740s no matter what year it is).  Or think how it would be hard to explain to 20th century people without being adjudged insane?   Or would it put her back at the exact same time she left, and then she would not have to explain any missing time but would still have the experience on her conscience.  

She knows she will be born in the future, but will she remember this in any way and if not, is she in an eternal loop living the same life over and over.  

I found all that to be quite interesting.  Seems odd there was no conversation with Jamie about it.  

 

On 4/26/2015 at 12:30 AM, SpiritSong said:

Thank you! This is my least favorite episode so far. Some of it is probably hangover from my extreme disappointment of the last episode, where I think they totally botched Claire's decision at the stones. I was hoping they would at least address her choice in this episode, but no. They totally ignored it instead. I can only imagine the non book readers wondering why in the world she stayed.

 

[Cdh20]

On 4/25/2015 at 10:30 PM, SpiritSong said:

Thank you! This is my least favorite episode so far. Some of it is probably hangover from my extreme disappointment of the last episode, where I think they totally botched Claire's decision at the stones. I was hoping they would at least address her choice in this episode, but no. They totally ignored it instead. I can only imagine the non book readers wondering why in the world she stayed.

And I'm sick of Black Jack Randall and his sadism. Enough already. I'm tired of the rapes and attempted rapes and the flogging scenes. Diana Gabaldon is starting to remind me of Mel Gibson and his love of torture porn. I don't find that entertaining at all.

On the plus side, Ian was wonderfully cast. I don't remember Jenny being such a bitch in the books, but I'm hoping I'll come around to her character because I really liked her when I read the books. I agree with an earlier poster who missed Granny McNabb and the way she held Jamie hostage in the cold water of the pond. That would have been a great scene.

I am replying to this a million years late, but at the time I watched I had not read the book, nor had any of my friends, & not one of us wished she went back to be married to Frank!  I agree that the decision at the stones was the one time a voice over was NEEDED, & not provided, but I clearly understood her choosing to stay!