S03.E20: The Fallen

[millennium]

Right, because there was no romance storyline going on in season 1 to distract from all the quality baddie-of-the-week action that was going on. The show totally didn't waste any time showing Oliver trying to regain his humanity by dating and sleeping with various women. And I certainly don't remember a season-long love triangle storyline involving his ex-girlfriend and his best friend. Nope, romance has only existed in season 3, and it's the only reason why so many people think it's a lousy season. Except for the 12-14 year old girls, of course.

 

If you insist.

[catrox14]

We don't know what his message was to her. My head!canon is that Oliver just said Thea got hurt and he was leaving"  And then she figures out where they are and her arrival is unexpected. So he possibly never had any intention of telling her the entire truth. Also, he might not have told her to keep her in the realm of plausible deniability.  Or alternately I would actually love to have seen Oliver just eyeroll at her showing up because his message had said "Ra's hurt Thea. I'm taking her  somewhere safe. Just wait there until you hear from Felicity"....and boom Laurel shows up. 

[kismet]

From the script where Oliver was saying goodbye to Laurel, he apparently lies to her about where they're taking Thea... 

...

...

In an episode where Oliver was the most honest, it's funny how the only person he lied to was Laurel. 

 

Deleted Scene Script

Its not necessarily lying. Its just not telling the whole truth. He was taking her to a specialist, so it was an accurate misdirection. It wasn't a blatant lie. But people are right, the theme behind OQ/LL relationship has always been that he does not feel the need to tell her the whole truth & doesn't prioritize her as one the people he turns to in an emotional crisis. In flashbacks & present time, LL is just not someone OQ turns to or seems to openly trust with some off the more complicated truths of his life. I thought it might be different once she was in on his secret identity, but the pattern hasn't changed. She is still generally the last one to know when it comes to him, and generally someone else has to tell her.

 

Perhaps that explains LL awkward hug in the end. It started out good, but quickly became awkward with her facial expressions & hand movements. On a rewatch, especially when they zoomed out I noticed LL did not really know what to do with her hands. I wonder if it was to show a level of LL feeling like she doesn't have a role on this team if she is constantly being misdirected, lied to or not kept in the loop. It must have been a lot of information to digest that OQ gave up everything to save his sister in NP and the most anyone thought to tell her was that they were heading to a specialist?

 

Add to that, we still don't know what she knows about Roy. I mean you have to feel bad for her a little that she is intentionally being kept on the outside of this group and she likely knows it. Knowing about Roy may be compromising with her job, so that is understandable to keep her out of the loop. But there was no reason to keep her in the dark on Thea. Perhaps that's why they deleted the hangar scene, it only made you realize more the value (or lack of value) OQ's relationship with LL has in his life. Its better to not have a goodbye than to remind the audience that OQ doesn't even feel the need to tell the whole truth to LL and purposely misdirect her.

[catrox14]

I'm not really sure why Laurel should be trusted nor why Oliver should tell her anything they are doing.  She was the one that lied to Quentin and made Team Arrow complicit with her lie about Sara by dragging her body all over the city(which I still laugh about that image). She told Oliver she wished he had died on the boat; she tried to have him arrested before she fell in love with the Arrow. She is still very reckless with her rage driven need to be a vigilante. IMO Oliver doesn't tell Laurel stuff because she's too unpredictable. There was nothing for her to do here anyway. He tolerates her because she knows things but I don't think he trusts her that much at all.

 

Given their history and anger with each other, I think a frosty relationship makes sense which might also include her not being in on every thing they do.

Edited April 25, 2015 by catrox14

[CabotCove]

But people are right, the theme behind OQ/LL relationship has always been that he does not feel the need to tell her the whole truth & doesn't prioritize her as one the people he turns to in an emotional crisis. In flashbacks & present time, LL is just not someone OQ turns to or seems to openly trust with some off the more complicated truths of his life. I thought it might be different once she was in on his secret identity, but the pattern hasn't changed. She is still generally the last one to know when it comes to him, and generally someone else has to tell her.

 

It has become a common theme with them, but I wouldnt say there hasnt been time when Oliver wanted to turn to Laurel before anyone or wanted to tell the truth or actually did. Writers may forget that they ever wrote season 1  but we know it screened. I don't think this assessment is entirely fair.  I know  there is a lot to despise of the relationship, are very hated here and Olicity is Queen but can O/L fairly get a little bit of credit were its due?. JMO. 

 

He tolerates her because she knows things but I don't think he trusts her that much at all.

 

Eureka! That or the writers just really hate her.

Edited April 25, 2015 by Conell

[catrox14]

 

Eureka! That or the writers just really hate her.

 

The point is that IMO they are writing Oliver as not trusting Laurel is reasonable given their history and Laurel's recklessness. IMO the lack of trust is organic and earned. I don't see how they can hate her when they just handed her the Black Canary title. 

[kismet]

Whats on O/F and especially F is that he has will likely have a broken heart for a while, she could have broken up with him in a mature & caring manner Imo. 

A mature & definitive break-up was needed & not given to them/us. But that is on the writers not O/F. The only reason the break up was handled in the manner it was per MG was so that FS would not be cheating on Ray. Its the writers that dropped the ball on that one. They needed the relationship to continue for the crossover, for the Team-up in 19 & to borrow the jet in 20. Just plotty reasons to extend a relationship that should have ended on the Jello. But Jello is actually the perfect analogy for R/F romantic relationship, leave it out too long or apply some heat & it melts away. The writers gave used it as a plot device & not for character, which is why it reflected poorly on the characters.

 

I have said numerous times that I think that romantic angle as the introduction of Ray did a disservice to him & Felicity. The triangle brought nothing of substance to the show or the characters. That being said, it seems like the writers really wanted it, so can't change it. But I feel like they should have ended the relationship in the hospital in 318 or at least beginning of 319. That way they still could have given dignity to both of the characters and actually made it a mature break-up. Two grown adults who felt a spark pursued it, but realized it wasn't working. FS could have simply said that she does not love him in that way & doesn't want to hurt him. It would have been slightly cliche, but she could have suggested they remained friends because she values him. She still could have been there to help with the suit & work at PT. There would have been a little heartbreak, but it would have been realistic scenario esp considering how closely they worked together all season. Not to digress, but I think a lot of Ray's emotions for FS are more to do with his dead fiancee than with her. The suit was so closely linked with his memory of Anna that it wouldn't surprise me that FS was able to make him feel emotions again by their interactions regarding the suit. I just think if Ray peeled back the source of his feelings towards FS they would point more to Anna than her.

 

The writers' need to keep them together for plot purposes made no sense from a relationship standpoint. It made FS seem a little callous & Ray seem a little oblivious. The hospital scene or the opening 319 scene with lower v. upper case lettering of love would have been an organic place to end the relationship. Instead, the writers breezed right over those opportunities & tried to sell the R/F PDA fest for some unknown & unrealistic reasons. Those romantic lovey-dovey scenes between them in the PT foundry felt uncomfortably in front of OQ, esp. knowing what was happening the next episode. I would have preferred a recently broken up couple personally but still needing to work together professionally as opposed to what was shown. Even as former lovers, they still could have had the Team-up. It would have been a little uncomfortable, but compartmentalizing mission over emotions is one of FS's strengths. Ultimately, it felt like the writers were just lazy and didn't want to write an episode in which they had to make R/F at realistic romantic odds with each other but still working together.

 

But seriously, why did we need to go to Ray to borrow the jet? They could have just had OQ somehow procure the jet. Use proceeds from Verdant, Thea's bank account or the insurance policies that is funding OQ's jobless lifestyle. Or just not tell us how he could afford a jet (they don't bother to explain a lot of the logistical details anyway). If OQ is really surrendering his life to LoA it wouldn't have mattered if he liquidated all fluid assets to pay for the jet. But going to Ray for the jet was not about OQ it was about Ray. The writers still had a few episodes on his contract, and needed to somehow loop BR/Ray into having a part. Perhaps to make us see how good of a guy Ray is, which is fine. But I could have seen that even if R/F had broken up sometime in the previous 3 episodes. In fact, I probably would have thought more of his character that despite whatever heartbreak or awkwardness there might be between him & FS, he still wanted to help her out. They didn't need to combine the break-up & the jet borrowing in the same scene, but that is just par for the course on how the writers have chosen to jam everything together this season for plot & not really allow the important part of the stories to breathe.

Edited April 25, 2015 by kismet

[looptab]

The most glaring stupidity is not having her at the hospital. Oliver could have texted Diggle, Felicity, and Laurel. Then she doesn't go with them for reasons. But the logical thing should have been Laurel knowing from the start. like the others.

Edited April 25, 2015 by looptab

[catrox14]

I think they needed Ray to give the jet to show that he's not a dick. Nothing more.

[TanyaKay]

Laurel may wear leather and run around with the boys but Team Arrow never really considered her part of the team like they did with Sara last year and then later with Roy. Even in this season, they hid many things from her. First, they did not tell her that Malcolm was alive, she was later than everyone else. Then the whole Thea being drugged while she killed Sara plot was hidden from her. Thea told her out of guilt, but Team Arrow never said a word to her even when she was in the lair with them. Then there is whole Ray/Atom thing. I don't think she is in on the secret that there is a new player in town who wears a suit and flies and is the same guy Felicity brought as her plus one to Diggle's wedding. The whole plot of Roy's fake death was kept away from Laurel and so was the real story about Thea being stabbed to death by Ra's and going to Nanda Parbat for coming back from an almost death. The point is Laurel is NOT part of the Team Arrow and has not really been accepted by either Oliver or the rest of his partners.

 

And if we go with this theme, then the last scene where Felicity went to tell her about Oliver's decision seems a little out of place and does seem like a way to insert her in the episode because of contractual obligations.

Edited April 25, 2015 by TanyaKay

[apinknightmare]

But seriously, why did we need to go to Ray to borrow the jet? They could have just had OQ somehow procure the jet. Use proceeds from Verdant, Thea's bank account or the insurance policies that is funding OQ's jobless lifestyle. Or just not tell us how he could afford a jet (they don't bother to explain a lot of the logistical details anyway). If OQ is really surrendering his life to LoA it wouldn't have mattered if he liquidated all fluid assets to pay for the jet. But going to Ray for the jet was not about OQ it was about Ray. The writers still had a few episodes on his contract, and needed to somehow loop BR/Ray into having a part. Perhaps to make us see how good of a guy Ray is, which is fine. But I could have seen that even if R/F had broken up sometime in the previous 3 episodes. In fact, I probably would have thought more of his character that despite whatever heartbreak or awkwardness there might be between him & FS, he still wanted to help her out. They didn't need to combine the break-up & the jet borrowing in the same scene, but that is just par for the course on how the writers have chosen to jam everything together this season for plot & not really allow the important part of the stories to breathe.

 

I'm glad Felicity went to Ray for the jet. Apart from the fact that they needed some kind of scene for him to break up with her and be the cool, nice ex boyfriend, why on earth would any of these people make Oliver deal with the issue of transportation when he's basically leaving his life behind? Yeah, he could've liquidated his assets (if he even had any), or used Thea's money (provided her assets were unfrozen - who knows if that ever happened), but time was of the essence and it's one less thing he had to worry about when his sister was dying. They saw the opportunity to combine two plot points so that we got more time for something else, and it makes sense storywise that Felicity went to Ray for the jet because she wouldn't have wanted Oliver to worry about something like transportation if he didn't have to.

 

I saw some comment earlier wondering why they needed a jet now when Oliver and Diggle managed to get to NP just fine last time, and I'm guessing this time it's because of the fact that they needed room for Thea - someone they could not have gotten on an international flight with a common carrier. 

Edited April 25, 2015 by apinknightmare

[doesntworkonwood]

 

But seriously, why did we need to go to Ray to borrow the jet? They could have just had OQ somehow procure the jet. Use proceeds from Verdant, Thea's bank account or the insurance policies that is funding OQ's jobless lifestyle. Or just not tell us how he could afford a jet (they don't bother to explain a lot of the logistical details anyway). If OQ is really surrendering his life to LoA it wouldn't have mattered if he liquidated all fluid assets to pay for the jet. 

Considering for the past few weeks, people (including Oliver) have been popping back and forth from Nanda Parpat like it's just down the road, there is no way that there was any need for a scene with Ray at all. They've not explained it up until now, so whilst it became a bit of a joke within fandom and on these forums, there was no need to explain it in this episode (especially as it doesn't fill in previous blanks), so the only reason that that scene was there was to allow Ray to break up with Felicity, so people didn't side-eye Felicity having sex with Oliver. 

 

I truly believe that Ray was the one with his dignity most intact in that scene, and he certainly came off the best. He wasn't the one trying to hide his feelings, Felicity was. He was able to explain his point of view, whilst Felicity hardly spoke.  All of this is a real shame because I prefer Felicity a hell of a lot more than Ray, I've spent three years with her so that's basically given for me. And Felicity never got to speak once about a fairly big relationship in her life, when Felicity is the one I wanted to hear from, not Ray. Which shows just how much Felicity's relationship with Ray is a lot more to do with Ray than it has to do with Felicity. 

[CabotCove]

The point is that IMO they are writing Oliver as not trusting Laurel is reasonable given their history and Laurel's recklessness. IMO the lack of trust is organic and earned. I don't see how they can hate her when they just handed her the Black Canary title.

 

Laurel is one of his oldest friends, even if he is so over her as a romantic love, he could show more respect to her. If not for her, for his own sister and her sister Sara, they are involved in this.  This isnt just bad on Laurel, they are killing their own lead character IMO, Yes he isnt perfect but you never see Barry Allen/Flash being a jerk like this to anyone.  He has ex girlfriends too. Laurel is reckless? what about Thea? Felicity?,Diggle? They have all disagreed with Oliver a number of times and have gone to do things behind his back.

About  giving Laurel BC. Maybe they hated Sara more?,lol maybe. Or maybe they have a long contract with Katie Cassidy and that maybe has  a clause that says she has to be BC?  I dont know why they keep Laurel anymore when the lead has no any kind relationship with her or want one.

 

Oh here is one, they may just love to humiliate certain characters and make a mockery of them. 

 

The most glaring stupidity is not having her at the hospital. Oliver could have texted Diggle, Felicity, and Laurel. Then she doesn't go with them for reasons. But the logical thing should have been Laurel knowing from the start. like the others.

 

This show might think the are sticking it to the Laurel character (& maybe her actress?) and then have a good laugh, but they are also ruining their own show, making a joke of it. Not everyone cares to hate the character and most casual viewers likely just want to see something that makes sense and feels real. They and some of us don't care about off screen politics. 

Edited April 25, 2015 by Conell

[wonderwall]

Times Ray/Felicity could've broken up:

-Episode 17 when Ray stopped trusting Felicity and basically electrocuted her friend (but they needed them to stay together for plot purposes/the Flash crossover)

-Episode 18 when Felicity realized she wasn't and will never be in love with Ray and was in love with Oliver

-Episode 19 because of previous realization and Ray finally figuring out that Felicity loves Oliver but they stayed together for plot purposes (bringing Ray/Oliver together to take down baddie)

 

I don't know why they saved the break up for episode 20. It was just the wrong move. And I honestly don't think that Felicity needed to ask Ray for the jet... I mean, they have Malcolm. I'm pretty sure he has a jet. How else did he and Thea get from Corto Maltese to Starling to kill Sara? 

 

But then again, whether they broke up in episode 19 or episode 20 doesn't matter because everything that happened before NP happened in the same night. 

 

Not having R/F break up in earlier episodes was a missed opportunity though.

Edited April 25, 2015 by wonderwall

[apinknightmare]

I'm pretty sure he has a jet. How else did he and Thea get from Corto Maltese to Starling to kill Sara? 

 

He chartered it. 

[nksarmi]

Ugh - I can't believe anyone can defend Oliver lying to Laurel about Thea.  I'd much prefer to think he was just too busy to call her.  Being in shock, mourning, fear - those are emotions I can understand for Oliver in this situation.  Lying to Laurel so she doesn't cause him any problems?  It just poops all over both characters.

 

Rather Laurel was delusional about pre-island Oliver or not, she clearly thought they might be headed toward marriage which means she was probably learning to think of Thea as her sister.  Laurel didn't put one ounce of blame on Thea for Sara's death and told her to forgive herself, it wasn't her fault.  No matter who else Laurel has been a bitch to - Thea is one person we can say Laurel cares about and in many ways, she probably cares about her more than Felicity or Diggle do.  Laurel does not deserve to be lied to like that.  He could have told her, "Ra's attacked Thea and I'm taking her somewhere she can be saved, but I have to hurry.  I'll make sure you know as soon as Thea is ok."  At this point, doesn't she at least deserve that much respect?

 

And if the writers can't do that, they should write Laurel off the show.  What they are doing to her makes it look like they hate her worse than any of the fans out there.

[apinknightmare]

Ugh - I can't believe anyone can defend Oliver lying to Laurel about Thea.  I'd much prefer to think he was just too busy to call her.  Being in shock, mourning, fear - those are emotions I can understand for Oliver in this situation.  Lying to Laurel so she doesn't cause him any problems?  It just poops all over both characters.

 

At first I didn't really get it, but now I can understand him lying about them taking her to Nanda Parbat, because I don't think for a second letting Laurel know they were taking her to the League of Assassins HQ with Malcolm is a good idea if he could possibly avoid it.

Edited April 25, 2015 by apinknightmare

[kismet]

It has become a common theme with them, but I wouldnt say there hasnt been time when Oliver wanted to turn to Laurel before anyone or wanted to tell the truth or actually did. Writers may forget that they ever wrote season 1  but we know it screened. I don't think this assessment is entirely fair.  I know  there is a lot to despise of the relationship, are very hated here and Olicity is Queen but can O/L fairly get a little bit of credit were its due?. JMO.

Perhaps I was too strong in my wording. I watched season 1 too, I enjoyed his relationship with LL. The slow regaining of trust was nice and realistic to see. It made sense considering their toxic backstory. But he still kept a helluva lot from her, not just his Arrow activities but other stuff as well. I keep wondering if it would have made a difference if he had just told her the truth by S1 finale. Perhaps things would be different. But even as s1 stands for what it was, the last 2 seasons have shown that OQ evolves, he doesn't put LL in the high ranking trust position. She has moved her further down the communication & trust ladder. If Slade had never told her that he was the Arrow, Im not sure he ever would have. And if she doesn't know that then everything has the potential to change. 

 

Personally, I do not despise LL. I don't believe Olicity is Queen, I think it is a better written/acted/presented story arc. Their relationship feels authentic & relatable. The writers/actors have prioritized making me feel more for O/F relationship (platonic or romantic) than O/L. I do not understand her current relationship with OQ because the writers have moved her so far out of his emotional/mental orbit that I have a hard time figuring out why she is there. I know they care about each other, but I have a hard time even believing them as current friends. We know from s1 & even s3 flashbacks that LL & TQ had a sisterly like relationship. So why did the writers conveniently forget about that? There was no place for LL in NP, but she could have asked about Thea during the hug scene. She could have been mentioned by someone on TA that we should let LL know. The fact is in the darkest moments of OQ's & TQ's life, not only did the OQ not feel the need to include her, but so did the writers chose to ignore her.

 

So yes in s1 did we have some good moments of LL/OQ rebuilding a relationship, but clearly that has not extended to s3. But that is realistic to life as well. People evolve & change. There are many good friends & relationships that were important to me years ago and with the passing of time & space have drifted apart. Ill always care about them, but in a crisis they are not a priority. Unfortunately, most of OQ's day to say is a crisis, so who he chooses to prioritize & deprioritize is a little more important & apparent. I honestly don't know why they have chosen to forget so much of S1 LL, but they have & it started in s2 before O/F were ever an official thing. It's easy to blame O/F, but they are not the reason the writers do not know what to do with LL. This episode would have been the perfect opportunity to bring her into the fold with her love of Thea. And instead, she was an afterthought. Its sad, because they have missed golden opportunities to make her character relevant.

[catrox14]

 

Oh here is one, they may just love to humiliate certain characters and make a mockery of them.

 

By that standard, then I give most hated by the writers award to Oliver Queen himself since he's been possibly literally demonized by being turned into a soulless villain. Laurel hasn't even had that happen to her.

[nksarmi]

At first I didn't really get it, but now I can understand him lying about them taking her to Nanda Parbat, because I don't think for a second letting Laurel know they were taking her to the League of Assassins HQ with Malcolm is a good idea if he could possibly avoid it.

Maybe not tell her everything, but Laurel deserved to know that Ras attacked Thea and Oliver was doing everything he could to save her life.  Thea got sick and needs to go to a specialist doesn't really tip off how bad things are going to get. At the very least, give the girl a clue so she knows she needs to look after Thea when she gets back. Why in the world is Malcolm on soup duty with Thea right now?

[apinknightmare]

Maybe not tell her everything, but Laurel deserved to know that Ras attacked Thea and Oliver was doing everything he could to save her life.  Thea got sick and needs to go to a specialist doesn't really tip off how bad things are going to get. At the very least, give the girl a clue so she knows she needs to look after Thea when she gets back. Why in the world is Malcolm on soup duty with Thea right now?

 

Nah, I would've even kept that from her. She would've been on the next plane to Nanda Parbat for sure. I know Laurel cares for Thea, but I think Oliver was probably right to keep Laurel in the dark about a potentially volatile situation, especially since Laurel has a tendency to be a bull in a china shop and Oliver needed to keep things calm with Ra's at least until Thea got put in the Pit. He told Laurel that Thea was very sick, which isn't exactly a lie. Why put Laurel on a path that's going to probably wind up with her getting tangled up with Ra's when Oliver's going to hand himself over anyway? 

[kismet]

I'm glad Felicity went to Ray for the jet. Apart from the fact that they needed some kind of scene for him to break up with her and be the cool, nice ex boyfriend, why on earth would any of these people make Oliver deal with the issue of transportation when he's basically leaving his life behind? Yeah, he could've liquidated his assets (if he even had any), or used Thea's money (provided her assets were unfrozen - who knows if that ever happened), but time was of the essence and it's one less thing he had to worry about when his sister was dying. They saw the opportunity to combine two plot points so that we got more time for something else, and it makes sense storywise that Felicity went to Ray for the jet because she wouldn't have wanted Oliver to worry about something like transportation if he didn't have to.

 

I saw some comment earlier wondering why they needed a jet now when Oliver and Diggle managed to get to NP just fine last time, and I'm guessing this time it's because of the fact that they needed room for Thea - someone they could not have gotten on an international flight with a common carrier. 

I'm not upset that she went to Ray for the jet. Makes sense to me. I'm upset they combined it with the break-up. I like Ray & Felicity as friends, so borrowing jets is just a nice perk of their friendship. But honestly, the logistics of how a jet became available to him is of no importance to me or the storyline. But hey at least they gave us a reason. Unlike the magical travel that LoA members seem to be able to do back & forth from NP in secs.

 

The last time OQ & Dig went to NP they used an ARGUS jet with Lyla's connection, but that was no longer feasible with her quitting. I believe Oliver used commercial methods when he made it to & from the mountain top. He had his little joke about hating boats when he was getting on what the flatbed of the truck.

[catrox14]

Maybe I've missed something, but I'm struggling to find reasons why Laurel absolutely deserved to know that Ra's attacked Thea. Was it so Laurel could be on guard for Ra's? He's gotten what he wanted by going after Thea. The fight is between Oliver and Ra's.  There is nothing she has that is leverage against Oliver for Ra's ,that I can figure at this point.  Her role is between Oliver and Quentin.

[nksarmi]

Nah, I would've even kept that from her. She would've been on the next plane to Nanda Parbat for sure. I know Laurel cares for Thea, but I think Oliver was probably right to keep Laurel in the dark about a potentially volatile situation, especially since Laurel has a tendency to be a bull in a china shop and Oliver needed to keep things calm with Ra's at least until Thea got put in the Pit. He told Laurel that Thea was very sick, which isn't exactly a lie. Why put Laurel on a path that's going to probably wind up with her getting tangled up with Ra's when Oliver's going to hand himself over anyway? 

The only legit reason I can see for Oliver lying to Laurel is her connection to Nyssa.  And if he lied for that reason - I want them to tell me that was the case at some point.  Like Felicity: Oliver should we call Laurel?  Oliver: No, she's too close to Nyssa and I don't need any problems making this deal with Ra's.

[jay741982]

They gave him Oliver's stuff so they could tear down Oliver and set him apart from his team and make him "villainy" and to build up Phony Stark/Tin Man as the hero before spinning him off.

As to 12 to 14 year old girls comment being the focus it leaves out that 18 to 34 year old males are just as interested in Felicity getting naked and having a romance with Oliver because they want to be Oliver.

I can Attest to that I'm a 32 year male who finds Felicity to be very sexy and wanted her to show some skin. Oliver is a lucky man lol. And I root hardcore for Them to be together

[apinknightmare]

The only legit reason I can see for Oliver lying to Laurel is her connection to Nyssa.  And if he lied for that reason - I want them to tell me that was the case at some point.  Like Felicity: Oliver should we call Laurel?  Oliver: No, she's too close to Nyssa and I don't need any problems making this deal with Ra's.

 

I can see several reasons:

 

Laurel finds out that Ra's stabbed Thea, Laurel's on the first plane to Nanda Parbat to raise hell with Ra's because she's consistently a hothead, and they absolutely do not need that, not when Oliver's desperate to use the Pit. Top that off with her growing friendship with Nyssa and probable knowledge that Ra's did something that hurt her - more powder in that keg. Finally, telling Laurel would mean fighting her about going with them. Oliver probably didn't want the fight, and if he didn't put up a fight and she went with them, I can't see it ending well, not being in such close proximity to Malcolm (for obvious reasons) and also being in such close proximity to Ra's (for other obvious reasons). 

 

I know this sounds terrible, but keeping Laurel in the dark made everyone's lives a whole hell of a lot easier, and probably removed a lot of potential stress from the trip. 

Edited April 25, 2015 by apinknightmare

[TanyaKay]

Laurel is one of his oldest friends, even if he is so over her as a romantic love, he could show more respect to her.

 

Lolz, how can anyone trust or show respect to a character who has lied to her own father for months and then impersonated her dead sister further deceiving her only living relative who actually gave a damn about her?

[SonofaBiscuit]

So if the show runners actually hate Laurel and are actively trying to humiliate her, how is the audience expected not to hate her too?  Mission accomplished, I don't like her.  Now what?

 

This isnt just bad on Laurel, they are killing their own lead character IMO, Yes he isnt perfect but you never see Barry Allen/Flash being a jerk like this to anyone. 

 

 

Don't know that I'd agree with that.  Plenty of people over in The Flash forum seem to think that Barry is a gigantic jerk because he has told everyone BUT Iris about his true superhero identity.

[nksarmi]

 

Lolz, how can anyone trust or show respect to a character who has lied to her own father for months and then impersonated her dead sister further deceiving her only living relative who actually gave a damn about her?

 

LOL Oliver is the biggest liar on the show and does it without even thinking.  Heck, if there was ever a bigger "tell" to Felicity being his "one true love" it might be that even when he was lying to her - it was hard.  He could only come up with lame excuses and lies she could easily see through.  With everyone else, he can lie without a second thought.  So yea, he has no room to judge Laurel on that front.

[dtissagirl]

On first watch, I had completely forgot there were stills of Laurel in the hangar scene. [And that scene was in the multi-episode promo as well, I think?] So I didn't even realize nobody had told Laurel anything until Felicity showed up at her office. And then I took it as Oliver didn't think to say anything to Laurel... because he legit doesn't think of her as part of any of this.

 

Which, yes, it's a problem when they can't seem to fit this character into the A plot even after she's done the hero journey thing, but at no point prior to Felicity showing up at Laurel's office I wondered "gee, where's Laurel?" She was as invisible to me as she's to Oliver, apparently.

Edited April 25, 2015 by dancingnancy

[wonderwall]

LOL Oliver is the biggest liar on the show and does it without even thinking.  Heck, if there was ever a bigger "tell" to Felicity being his "one true love" it might be that even when he was lying to her - it was hard.  He could only come up with lame excuses and lies she could easily see through.  With everyone else, he can lie without a second thought.  So yea, he has no room to judge Laurel on that front.

 

Lmao damn straight she's his one true love ;) No but seriously, I don't think Oliver distrusts Laurel for lying to her father. I think he distrusts Laurel because of a lot of the decisions she's made in the past. I don't think he can trust her to not do anything reckless which is probably why he lied. 

[CabotCove]

Perhaps I was too strong in my wording. I watched season 1 too, I enjoyed his relationship with LL. The slow regaining of trust was nice and realistic to see. It made sense considering their toxic backstory. But he still kept a helluva lot from her, not just his Arrow activities but other stuff as well. I keep wondering if it would have made a difference if he had just told her the truth by S1 finale. Perhaps things would be different. But even as s1 stands for what it was, the last 2 seasons have shown that OQ evolves, he doesn't put LL in the high ranking trust position. She has moved her further down the communication & trust ladder. If Slade had never told her that he was the Arrow, Im not sure he ever would have. And if she doesn't know that then everything has the potential to change.

OK. But OQ seems to have a habit of withdrawing information and keeping some truths to himself though, Imo. He did say he thought about  telling Laurel he was the Arrow every night, for whatever that is worth. Yeah she moved way down from the top of his trust rankings a good while ago.

 

 So yes in s1 did we have some good moments of LL/OQ rebuilding a relationship, but clearly that has not extended to s3. But that is realistic to life as well. People evolve & change. There are many good friends & relationships that were important to me years ago and with the passing of time & space have drifted apart. Ill always care about them, but in a crisis they are not a priority. Unfortunately, most of OQ's day to say is a crisis, so who he chooses to prioritize & deprioritize is a little more important & apparent. I honestly don't know why they have chosen to forget so much of S1 LL, but they have & it started in s2 before O/F were ever an official thing. It's easy to blame O/F, but they are not the reason the writers do not know what to do with LL. This episode would have been the perfect opportunity to bring her into the fold with her love of Thea. And instead, she was an afterthought. Its sad, because they have missed golden opportunities to make her character relevant.

 

True, change happens. But in real life, noone is really watching someone's life story. This a TV show, and if a character is not going to mean anything to the main character and is usually excluded in others lives, then what are they there for.  Even villains still have relationships with Oliver.  Maybe its not the whole story but I quite think O/F have something to do with it, Laurel became a displaced love interest and now they have their own mega ship that they are so proud of. To assure that Laurel will never be a love interest again, it seems to me they have to neglect her and have OQ acting OTT and spitting on her any chance he gets, IMO.  Not  really blaming the ship, its the writers' fault.

 

So if the show runners actually hate Laurel and are actively trying to humiliate her, how is the audience expected not to hate her too?  Mission accomplished, I don't like her.  Now what?

 

Nothing. Kickback, relax and popcorn time until whenever they decide to pull the plug on her. LOL

 

Don't know that I'd agree with that.  Plenty of people over in The Flash forum seem to think that Barry is a gigantic jerk because he has told everyone BUT Iris about his true superhero identity.

 

Iris'  father is the massive jerk, he is the one who forced Barry to lie and keep the secret from Iris. Besides its for plot reasons, Iris cant know yet. Romantic tropes detect she doesn't.

Edited April 25, 2015 by Conell

[TrueMyth]

From the script where Oliver was saying goodbye to Laurel, he apparently lies to her about where they're taking Thea... 

...

...

In an episode where Oliver was the most honest, it's funny how the only person he lied to was Laurel. 

 

Deleted Scene Script

Also crazy to me that this original draft script has MALCOLM FUCKING MERLYN talking to the doctor about where to move Thea Queen.  Really glad that someone caught that and changed it to Felicity because they are stretching things way thin regarding what Malcolm can and can't get away with in Starling.

[Moya the Leviathan]

Oliver was finally in a place where he could accept Felicity's love and open himself up to her because everything that had been holding him back had been destroyed or stolen from him.I

 

I wasn't feeling Amell's love for the airplane scene, but I do see Oliver letting go of emotional walls that have been part of his identity(ies) over the life of the series.  I think it may have been his easiest confession of sin to Felicity.  He's not worried that she will recoil in horror,  but neither is he worried that she'll give him false atonement.  His earlier statements to Ray, "I have nothing to prove to her" and "I trust her judgment" are properly displayed to Felicity directly, with a recitation of the facts and his feelings, with a minimum of defensiveness and self-loathing.  

Edited April 25, 2015 by Moya the Leviathan

[steeledwithakiss]

Can I say how much I loved Felicity acting crazy and trying to save Oliver? It was nice having someone do that for him even though it was a stupid plan.

OK. But OQ seems to have a habit of withdrawing information and keeping some truths to himself though, Imo. He did say he thought about  telling Laurel he was the Arrow every night, for whatever that is worth. Yeah she moved way down from the top of his trust rankings a good while ago.

 

 

True, change happens. But in real life, noone is really watching someone's life story. This a TV show, and if a character is not going to mean anything to the main character and is usually excluded in others lives, then what are they there for.  Even villains still have relationships with Oliver.  Maybe its not the whole story but I quite think O/F have something to do with it, Laurel became a displaced love interest and now they have their own mega ship that they are so proud of. To assure that Laurel will never be a love interest again, it seems to me they have to neglect her and have OQ acting OTT and spitting on her any chance he gets, IMO.  Not  really blaming the ship, its the writers' fault.

Berlanti produced Everwood right? If I remember correctly they had that nice and realistic storyline with Ephram and Bright realizing they had grown apart and that their friendship might just be those kind of highschool things that don't stand the test of time. I think people growing apart and not meaning the same thing they did for each other is realistic and can actually be portrayed on TV. For me Oliver started to become very frustrated with Laurel since season 2. Blind spot being the moment he started to realize it and Time of death the moment he acknowledged it to her. Him not telling the truth to his oldest friends is not new, he admitted to Tommy he would have never told him he was the Arrow if he could have helped it. And Oliver sleeping with Laurel when he thought he could hang up the hood and never telling her truth afterwards showed he just didn't want her to see him, the real Oliver. He was trying hard to hang on the old Ollie, the guy he was before the boat went down (don't know why that guy was a douche). It is hard to keep LL relevant with that very strained relationship she has with Oliver but I think that's why they are trying to develop a friendship with her and Felicity and Diggle. I'm not sold but I can see them trying.

 

Oliver telling Felicity about killing the drug dealer was really interesting and I hope we get to see him speak more about the 5 years he was away (to her or someone else) because it feels we get to see Oliver going through all this in the flashbacks and nobody on the show has any idea and it feels really lonely for him.

 

I really enjoyed the episode because it had really strongs scenes between Oliver and the three people I feel are his family (T/F/D). It was also interesting having him grieve with Malcolm because he is Thea's father I guess.

 

What worries me though is Malcolm's place on the show. I think the writers can have a way to make him stay but for me it's important he's never redeemed, he needs to stay the villain. Him still living with Thea after destroying Oliver's life is ridiculous.

Edited April 26, 2015 by steeledwithakiss

[Chaser]

MG uploaded that second page. He tells Laurel to do two things for him. Watch over the city. She asks him how long he will be gone. He says he doesn't know. Then she asks him what the second thing is, he says make things right with her Dad. Then he walks away. If you add the lie its odd, but not a bad scene. Though I hate to see the 'two things' line. I just think of that as an Oliver and Felicity thing.

 

It also has a bit of the jet scene, up to Felicity's line about Oliver growing as a person. To quote "A shared smile. A rare moment of lightness in the dark."

 

I really wish he had released the pages from the goodbye scenes. I want to read the descriptions.

 

Unrelated: Why did Felicity and Oliver smell the blanket? I want to know. 

Edited April 26, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[wonderwall]

See, that's actually a lot better, the lie was totally unnecessary. But I still get why it was cut.

 

And aw, that "rare moment of lightness in the dark" thing :') 

[apinknightmare]

Unrelated: Why did Felicity and Oliver smell the blanket? I want to know. 

 

She didn't, she just brought it up to her chin for whatever reason.

[wonderwall]

Unrelated: Why did Felicity and Oliver smell the blanket? I want to know. 

 

Fanwank, because Felicity brought it for him, and it shows that he treasures the closeness and the way she cares about him. 

[kismet]

MG uploaded that second page. He tells Laurel to do two things for him. Watch over the city. She asks him how long he will be gone. He says he doesn't know. Then she asks him what the second thing is, he says make things right with her Dad. Then he walks away. If you add the lie its odd, but not a bad scene. Though I hate to see the 'two things' line. I just think of that as an Oliver and Felicity thing.

 

It also has a bit of the jet scene, up to Felicity's line about Oliver growing as a person. To quote "A shared smile. A rare moment of lightness in the dark."

 

I really wish he had released the pages from the goodbye scenes. I want to read the descriptions.

 

Unrelated: Why did Felicity and Oliver smell the blanket? I want to know. 

Do u have a copy of the link? I looked briefly at his tumblr, but couldn't find it. If you have it that would be wonderful. If not, Ill just look a little harder overnight at work.

 

If the wording to LL is "DO 2 things" than its different than his I "know 2 things". So the symmetry is different. Plus I think the 2 things he asked made sense and was a nice gesture. Especially telling her to fix things with her Dad. How they treated QL for plot purposes this season will continue to be one of the things I hated most about this season.

[Chaser]

http://klarolicityswan.tumblr.com/post/117383961401/a-rare-moment-of-lightness-in-the-dark

 

That might work. Never linked something before.

 

I think its cute that she brought him a blanket (something in the scene was actually cute!). But it looked a little odd that she brought it to her face and then so did he.  

[apinknightmare]

The "Laurel's radar pinging" is cracking me up.

 

I want to write scripts. It seems like fun.

Edited April 26, 2015 by apinknightmare

[SmallScreenDiva]

Did he? i have to watch again (such a hardship, I know), but I thought she brought it to her chin or neck to demonstrate what she just said, that he looked chilly. But I didn't see him do the same thing. He brought the blanket up to cover his knees, I think. Hmmm, I have to find GIFs.

[apinknightmare]

Did he? i have to watch again (such a hardship, I know), but I thought she brought it to her chin or neck to demonstrate what she just said, that he looked chilly. But I didn't see him do the same thing. He brought the blanket up to cover his knees, I think. Hmmm, I have to find GIFs.

 

No, he didn't. I think it just looked that way when he looked down and was bringing the blanket up over his legs. 

Edited April 26, 2015 by apinknightmare

[wonderwall]

The "Laurel's radar pinging" is cracking me up.

 

I want to write scripts. It seems like fun.

 

It's weird, I feel like I know the exact face that KC would make in this scene. Why does it crack you up?

 

Apart from the lie, I thought it could've been a nice scene? I think that if we didn't get the hong kong flashbacks they could've added this in. They could've made the jet scene longer and made Felicity's declaration longer.

[apinknightmare]

It's weird, I feel like I know the exact face that KC would make in this scene. Why does it crack you up?

 

It's not Laurel-specific, I just think it's a funny thing to write. It makes me imagine her looking around trying to figure out where that beeping is coming from.

[TrueMyth]

Can I say how much I loved Felicity acting crazy and trying to save Oliver? It was nice having someone do that for him even though it was a stupid plan.

I think her crazy plan somewhat mirrors episode 2x19 with Felicity's "not a good" plan to blow up Applied Sciences.  It's now an established character trait!

[Chaser]

The flashbacks can get weird. I like the characters in the Hong Kong ones, but I feel like they take so long to get to the point. We probably won't know the full reasoning until the finale so in emotional character driven episodes like this they really break the momentum. 

 

Really, other then the lie it wouldn't have been a bad scene. But that lie throws everything off. I'm glad it was cut.

[statsgirl]

Still, it was less of a lie than he usually tells.

Oliver telling Felicity about killing the drug dealer was really interesting and I hope we get to see him speak more about the 5 years he was away (to her or someone else) because it feels we get to see Oliver going through all this in the flashbacks and nobody on the show has any idea and it feels really lonely for him.

At the risk of over-analyzing, something that's been carried over this season from the is Oliver opening up to Felicity about specific things that happened during his missing five years.  He's talked to Diggle about larger issues of being a soldier/vigilante but I don't think he's ever gone into specifics.

 

I've  been trying to understand why SA said that scene was his favorite and maybe it's because Oliver was letting all the walls down and able to be be totally open and honest at last, knowing that Felicity wasn't going to be shocked or condemn him for it.  It must be a relief after having to keep all those secrets for 8 years.

 

MG uploaded that second page. He tells Laurel to do two things for him. Watch over the city. She asks him how long he will be gone. He says he doesn't know. Then she asks him what the second thing is, he says make things right with her Dad. Then he walks away

I wish they had kept it in for Oliver's sake.  It's about knowing how important family is and how easily you can lose the people you love.  Thea was the last remaining member of his family, and he was willing to do anything to keep her alive, no matter what conditions she would be in.

[kismet]

Still, it was less of a lie than he usually tells.

At the risk of over-analyzing, something that's been carried over this season from the is Oliver opening up to Felicity about specific things that happened during his missing five years.  He's talked to Diggle about larger issues of being a soldier/vigilante but I don't think he's ever gone into specifics.

 

I've  been trying to understand why SA said that scene was his favorite and maybe it's because Oliver was letting all the walls down and able to be be totally open and honest at last, knowing that Felicity wasn't going to be shocked or condemn him for it.  It must be a relief after having to keep all those secrets for 8 years.

 

I wish they had kept it in for Oliver's sake.  It's about knowing how important family is and how easily you can lose the people you love.  Thea was the last remaining member of his family, and he was willing to do anything to keep her alive, no matter what conditions she would be in.

Ditto on keeping the scene to have Laurel work things out with her father. Actually would have preferred that over the hug scene - if they were short for time. The lie doesn't bother me, because its a very grey (not even technically a lie, the priestess was techinically a "specialist") and he's told some blatant out right lies to LL, so this one is nothing really in comparision.

 

As for the Jet scene, it was my second fav scene (still really partial to the catacomb sequence) so I totally got why SA loved it so much. It was all about his love for his sister. I think people thought it was going to be this big scene about Olicity or his entire time away. But really, it was just a sweet condensed moment that stripped down some of the layers of OQ & his journey to this point. How he's failed in the past & the present, when all he wanted to do was protect her. But it also was completely being open with Felicity, acknowledging his past mistakes and sins. Confessing to the one he loved that he is not perfect, which is hard to do for broody & introspective OQ. I also loved the blanket & the brief smile when he admitted that he didn't have much of choice in having her come along. It was nice to hear her responses to him. It was just a sweet scene that set-up both the LP & the bedroom scene.