S03.E20: The Fallen

[apinknightmare]

I am now convinced the writers are aiming at a 12-14-year-old female demographic. 

 

Oh, thank god. This thread had been strangely lacking in belittling comments toward people who enjoy the romance on the show. Thanks for taking one for the team!

 

 

For those like me who tune in hoping for a decent storyline to equal the quality of Season 1, well, we're S.O.L.

 

Yeah, even those of us in the 12-14 year-old girl demographic are pretty disappointed in the way things are going. At least we have the squee-worthy sex to sustain us!

 

 

Has anyone kept track of the percentage of episodes this season when the Arrow has actually been fighting crime?   

 

Not a percentage, but we were discussing up thread how awful it is that we haven't seen Oliver put too many bad guys away. And it's also pretty terrible that as of now it seems like the two big 'ol bad guy nasties who were responsible for most of the mayhem this season are probably totes gonna get away with all the bad stuff they've done this year!

Edited April 25, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Password]

Hmmm. I sense sarcasm here.

[apinknightmare]

Hmmm. I sense sarcasm here.

 

Me? Yeah, sorry. Belittling people who enjoy romance by referring to them as children is a really sore spot for me. Especially since most of what we talk about here (apart from Oliver and Felicity, because it's okay to watch for them and enjoy their story above all else) is how awful we think the storylines are this year and different we wish they could be, quality wise. And, I mean...the plot in this episode was a mess, you know? We all admit that much. 

[millennium]

Oh, thank god. This thread had been strangely lacking in belittling comments toward people who enjoy the romance on the show. Thanks for taking one for the team!

 

 

I didn't post that to be belittling.   I honestly feel the writing is so simplistic, formulaic and predictable that it feels like it's geared towards an eighth-grade mindset -- which is insulting to all of us as viewers (or should be).   The female portion of the demographic I base on the show's romantic element which appears to have eclipsed plot as a priority.  Traditionally, romantic storylines have stronger appeal among the female audience.

 

IMHO, Arrow started out strong, then the writers began paying too much attention to the internet and gradually skewed the writing to appease fandom.

[Password]

Nah don't apologise. I didn't mean it in a "hey what are you doing" way.

Tbh I loved the love scene which is essentially what it was, a LOVE scene. The sometimes fumbling, awkward don't-know-where-to-put-my-hands but want-to-put-them-everywhere feeling I got seemed...realistic. It was a big deal to cross that line for them. I loved it.

[tarotx]

Arrow Season 3 has not been about fighting crime. And they changed the show more into a serial than it had already been.

The problem with season 3 is that they chose such a large theme and didn't know how to sustain it. 3a and 3b have actually been the same story stretched out and repeated. They wanted Oliver to die to push the other's journey but it didn't jell because they brought back Oliver too soon. They were not as brave as they tell themselves.

3a should have been closer to what they are telling in the 2.5 comics and 3b needed to be tighter. What's happening now should have happened with Oliver's non death. The audience should have seen Oliver's brainwashing process and those in Starling morn and try to deal.

Edited April 25, 2015 by tarotx

[CabotCove]

Congratulations to all who have been waiting so patiently for Oliver and Felicity to have sex, you finally got your heart's desire.

For those like me who tune in hoping for a decent storyline to equal the quality of Season 1, well, we're S.O.L                            IMHO, Arrow started out strong, then the writers began paying too much attention to the internet and gradually skewed the writing to appease fandom.                                                                                                                                                                              

Yeah truly congrads, its been 3 years of waiting, I thought the scene was well directed too and that's about it for the good part.  This show is really becoming the "Olicity show and the amazing friends who kiss their ass" show , it hasnt got much to offer anyone who doesn't like them or don't care. 

 

At least they are doing one good thing right for their former and potential ex fans, by building spin off like Flash/ "Legends of tomorrrow" and kicking out lots of good characters for them to pick up, for anyone who doesnt want the new Arrow Olicity sequel. Now they just need to send Black Canary/Laurel to the Flash, so they dont have to begrudgingly deal with her, and they can complete their mission of a full Olicity sequel. I would advice to check out the new spin offs, you might find what you are looking for there. Arrow PTB are addicted to the internet, I dont see any hope for change.

Edited April 25, 2015 by Conell

[Chaser]

Episodes like this just remind me that I can tolerant stupid in an episode if the characters are enjoyable. I loved Oliver, Diggle and Felicity. I loved all of their interactions with each other and with others. 

 

Secret Origins of Felicity Smoak was the same way for me. I thought Cooper was super lame, but I loved the episode because it gave me my favorite characters being awesome.

 

Doesn't change the fact that this whole Ra's plot is stupid. 

Edited April 25, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[dtissagirl]

Perception is a funny thing, really. I thought this was one of THE most action-adventure-y episodes they've ever done, both in present time and in the flashbacks. I was even okay with the jarring editing between Nanda Parbat and Hong Kong, because I was invested in OMG WHAT'S GONNA HAPPEN NEXT in both A and B plot this week. And having the two teams, present and past, come up with crazy dumb plans that didn't work out in the end? I loved that.

And I was really happy that so many pro reviewers this week compared the tone of the episode with Indiana Jones, because that's what I got as well on first view. And then the director admitted on Twitter they discussed Indy in pre-production, and, well: JOB WELL DONE, DUDE.

[lemotomato]

 

I am now convinced the writers are aiming at a 12-14-year-old female demographic. 

 

Congratulations to all who have been waiting so patiently for Oliver and Felicity to have sex, you finally got your heart's desire.

 

For those like me who tune in hoping for a decent storyline to equal the quality of Season 1, well, we're S.O.L.

Right, because there was no romance storyline going on in season 1 to distract from all the quality baddie-of-the-week action that was going on. The show totally didn't waste any time showing Oliver trying to regain his humanity by dating and sleeping with various women. And I certainly don't remember a season-long love triangle storyline involving his ex-girlfriend and his best friend. Nope, romance has only existed in season 3, and it's the only reason why so many people think it's a lousy season. Except for the 12-14 year old girls, of course.

[lemotomato]

At least they are doing one good thing right for their former and potential ex fans, by building spin off like Flash/ "Legends of tomorrrow" and kicking out lots of good characters for them to pick up, for anyone who doesnt want the new Arrow Olicity sequel. Now they just need to send Black Canary/Laurel to the Flash, so they dont have to begrudgingly deal with her, and they can complete their mission of a full Olicity sequel. I would advice to check out the new spin offs, you might find what you are looking for. Arrow PTB are addicted to the internet, I dont see any hope for change.

I absolutely agree that Arrow will be much improved when Ray leaves for the new show, and I hope all the time that Laurel would get her own spinoff. Because then yes, Arrow will go back to being about Oliver Queen and his journey to becoming Green Arrow, not the backstory of whatever other comic superhero the EPs decide would be cool to play with for 1/4 of a season.

I'm watching Arrow because I expect the show to be about Oliver Queen. His team, his friendships, his relationships. This week's episode finally got back to focusing on that. It was about his love for his sister, for his brother-in-arms, for his partner and love interest. It wasn't a perfect episode, but I was happy that the show finally remembered to spend time on its title character, instead of "Who wants to be a vigilante this week"

Edited April 25, 2015 by lemotomato

[TanyaKay]

I really like the director of this episode for being so forthcoming and sharing little nuggets about what went behind the scenes, his very crude story board sketches and the contributions of the actors to their scenes. I enjoyed knowing that they discussed Indy during pre production meetings, that the goodbye scene was shot at 2:00 am, that it was Stephen's idea that

Oliver should remove Felicity's glasses and that the stunts during that flashback car chase scene were all done by Stephen himself. These things add a little something more to the viewing pleasure of audience who are interested in knowing the BTS stories. I really wish he would direct more episodes in future.

[CabotCove]

I absolutely agree that Arrow will be much improved when Ray leaves for the new show, and I hope all the time that Laurel would get her own spinoff. Because then yes, Arrow will go back to being about Oliver Queen and his journey to becoming Green Arrow, not the backstory of whatever other comic superhero the EPs decide would be cool to play with for 1/4 of a season.

 

Same wants, but for different reasons, I definately wouldn't mind those characters leaving. The last thing I want to see of them is joining the Olicity cheerleading squad. A show cannot normally survive on one man alone, and even when they leave, they have a tendency to divert the focus to Felicity/Olicity. It wont  truly be about Green Arrow/Oliver Queen stories Imo.  Olicity aside new characters will likely come in every season,  I bet they see value in new characters like Ray, even though the show ends up treating them like crap. After he is gone will just come someone new, new  stories and new blood are usually  needed in shows. Im not sure this show is smart enough to keep recognizing that though, for those who only want this show to be Olicity & the occasional Diggle, they may just be in luck. For some of us we might have to find new homes in the spin offs. Hey it might just be a win, win.

 

 

Right, because there was no romance storyline going on in season 1 to distract from all the quality baddie-of-the-week action that was going on.

Maybe they think that the amount is too much and that it feels more fan fueled storytelling than season 1?. Different strokes, different interpretations. 

Edited April 25, 2015 by Conell

[lemotomato]

Same want, but for different reasons, I definately wouldn't mind those characters leaving. The last thing I want to see of them is joining the Olicity cheerleading squad. A show cannot normally survive on one man alone, and even when they leave, they have a tendency to divert the focus to Felicity/Olicity. It wont truly be about Green Arrow/Oliver Queen stories Imo. New characters will always come in this show, I bet they see value in new characters like Ray, even though show ends up treating them like crap. After he is gone will just come someone new, new stories and new blood are always going to be needed in a show. Im not sure this show is smart enough to keep recognising that, for those who only want this show to be Olicity & the occasional Diggle, they may just be in luck. For some of us we might have to find homes in the spin offs.

The show treated Ray like crap? You mean when the writers gave Ray Oliver's company, girl, and vigilante job, just for showing up? When he got a supersuit and was called "a hero" (by Oliver himself!) in 6 episodes? This week's episode is the only time he hasn't gotten what he wants, and even then, they let him initiate the breakup.

Yeah, Ray's totally had a long difficult journey to becoming a superhero.

And as for "Olicity cheerleading", with the exception of the last couple of episodes, there's been a distinct lack of Olicity this season (nothing in 3A except for 3x01 and a minute in 3x09) so I have no idea where you get this notion that "focusing on Oliver" means "focusing on Oliver's romances". Even in this episode, while one of the big moments is Olicity-related, the driving force behind everything that Oliver does is his love for Thea. He's giving up his life for his sister. That's the message of this episode, even if people choose to focus on the Olicity parts.

Edited April 25, 2015 by lemotomato

[NumberCruncher]

Thank you, lemotomato. The EPs have bent over backwards so much with Ray to make him practically perfect in every way and giving him everything on his whirlwind trajectory to superhero status that I'm surprised they're still walking. If that's treating him like crap then apparently I'm not watching the same show. The only thing he didn't get this entire season was the girl and yet here he is in this episode portrayed as the most magnanimous man stepping aside all while telling Felicity how she's feeling. Poor, poor Ray.

[tarotx]

I think The Fallen was better for the central theme being about Oliver. Also about the other characters being there to help or be helped by Oliver. At the same time showing off their own value As characters.

Imo there hasn't even been a lot of Olicity this season. Felicity has been stuck propping other characters.

I do agree that the show has these other Super heroes they waste. They don't know what to do with them because they shouldn't be on Arrow or should be a different super hero than they have been forced into because of comic name. Or they kill Canary Sara off to build up a weaker version of her. I mean nothing against Laurel she just needed her own super hero. The show gave The huntress and The Canary much Much More believable arcs and connected them to Oliver's story. Even Maseo and Tatsu this season Is linked to Oliver in both past and Present.

Everything is better when it's linked to Oliver. Imo. This episode showed that strength.

Edited April 25, 2015 by tarotx

[wonderwall]

Maybe they think that the amount is too much and that it feels more fan fueled storytelling than season 1?. Different strokes, different interpretations. 

 

Season 1 IMO had a forced romance because of the comics. I never understood L/O and never understood the push for them to be 'soulmates'. THAT was the romance Season 1 had. I can argue that O/F aren't fan fueled but I'll hold my breath because I know people who think O/F are fan pandering won't likely change their minds, but even if they are fan fueled, I'd much rather have a believable romance borne from loyalty, friendship, and honesty than a perplexing one with a history of cheating, lies, and more cheating any day. 

 

Then again, different strokes, different interpretations. 

Edited April 25, 2015 by wonderwall

[SmallScreenDiva]

I really like the director of this episode for being so forthcoming and sharing little nuggets about what went behind the scenes, his very crude story board sketches and the contributions of the actors to their scenes. I enjoyed knowing that they discussed Indy during pre production meetings, that the goodbye scene was shot at 2:00 am, that it was Stephen's idea that

Oliver should remove Felicity's glasses and that the stunts during that flashback car chase scene were all done by Stephen himself. These things add a little something more to the viewing pleasure of audience who are interested in knowing the BTS stories. I really wish he would direct more episodes in future.

 

I really appreciated that, too. Antonio Negret started amping up his tweets about the episode a week before it aired, doing a countdown of sorts. And when fans started engaging him, he responded. And I loved that he came prepared with the storyboards (his versions are hilarious!), the behind-the-scenes stuff, anecdotes. Arrow should be doing this on a regular basis. Other shows like Person of Interest do.

[Happy Harpy]

I am now convinced the writers are aiming at a 12-14-year-old female demographic. 

 

Congratulations to all who have been waiting so patiently for Oliver and Felicity to have sex, you finally got your heart's desire.

Funnily, I felt that with Ray the super geek, superpowers, Laurel Lance as Black Canary because comics and all, season 3 was more the one where the writers  did their best  to "appease" (is that the new "pander"?) the 12-14 male demographic.

 

I'd tend to agree with your other criticism; NP's representation, Oliver selling his soul to the league and, erm, general lack of tightness in the writing, if I try to be more diplomatic than my previous use of "convoluted drivel".

 

But  I'd argue that the romance was actually the only part of the episode that was handled well, and in a mature way (actually, all the character development and interactions, but stoopid female me, I guess, isn't supposed to enjoy or value anything else).

For me, it's the whole Ray thing that was taken directly from bad romance tropes. I never got the reasoning where Felicity needed to have "options", since love isn't a contest or a power struggle. Trying to get over someone with someone else never, ever works. And I found it out of character for her, since she was always portrayed as honest to a fault, and with a strong psyche, to delude herself and try it.

 

O/F in this episode wasn't only about sex, it was two people who understand each other, support each other, are important and meaningful in each other's life finally getting together. They did it, it was a milestone if you want, but it wasn't  even the most significant imo.

And what was significant did wonders for the characters, who were themselves again imo. There was no artificial drama, no cheap ploy. It was honest.

And for what counted imo as one of the darkest moments in Oliver's life, there was...OMG yes, there was humor! And Oliver smiled, and there was hope for a light at the end of the tunnel.

 

Writing-wise, the rest of the episode wasn't different from what I saw, or what I read (this fall, mostly, then I took a break) about the crime-fighting front in S3. The general writing this season is, imo, bad...but it has to do with the plot TPTB chose to do. And it has nothing, nothing, nothing to do with romance or its place on the show.

The writers chose to have the first part of the season revolve around Sara's murder, a plot that had more holes than Swiss cheese, that (arguably) many people didn't care about because they were pissed off by Sara being dead, and  were busy trying to make sense of Malcolm Merlyn and setting up the second part of the season...a second part where Oliver fighting crime had no space. Because this second part revolved around Laurel and Ray "rising", so the crimefighting went to them, while Oliver was stuck in the Heir to the Demon saga which doesn't make sense imo.

In parallel, they did try to artificially stall O/F (and sorry, but I find it infuriating and not appeasing) and they almost eliminated any Team Arrow interaction. Yet for me, there's something that was clear at the end of S2: as long as Oliver has Diggle and Felicity by his side, as long as Team Arrow is whole, I can enjoy the show even though it's dark.

This episode, for me, is proof that plotting and writing suffered because  the writers made wrong the choices in these matters, separately from the wrong choices they made (imo) in matter of relationships and romance. For the latter, this episode was a win, so for once there was something to enjoy...even though it was in a puddle of nonsense.

[Guest]

People are going way overboard with this Olicity thing. The hero of the story always has a love interest. Relationships are an important part of Oliver's journey. So what if this one episode focused a little more on that romance? Why is romance such a derogatory thing?

 

I actually found the romance part of this episode to be perfectly placed because it was already an emotionally wrenching episode, from start to finish. Oliver was finally in a place where he could accept Felicity's love and open himself up to her because everything that had been holding him back had been destroyed or stolen from him. We were finally paralleling what was foreshadowed in 309 - that Oliver would do anything to save his sister and that he loves Felicity. I think it was an important part of Oliver's journey as a character this season to come full circle on that. 

 

To be honest I'm getting real fed up of seeing people say that Olicity is taking over the show when their scenes barely add up in minutes per episode. Their entire love scene from the moment Felicity walks into his room was about 3 minutes long. I know there were other Olicity scenes in this episode but this was the exception and when else has it been this heavy this season? Oh, that's right. Never. 

[CabotCove]

The show treated Ray like crap? You mean when the writers gave Ray Oliver's company, girl, and vigilante job, just for showing up? When he got a supersuit and was called "a hero" (by Oliver himself!) in 6 episodes? This week's episode is the only time he hasn't gotten what he wants, and even then, they let him initiate the breakup.

 

The point is he  loses most of what he got, so what was even the point?, to go from 100 to 20 that's humiliating. Why did they even bother to give him Oliver's "stuff" to begin with, clearly it wasn't going to last and was meant for  a "he who laughs last..". Meanwhile Oliver had short term loses and will win everything back and more. Good, he is the hero of the show and all, he deserves some silver lining after everything but they didn't have to strip Ray of everything but a suit that isn't even working well yet. I dont think that a character who is loved by writers would be treated like that. All IMO.

 

But at least he is lucky to be treated better and not worse than the way they treated Sara. Now that was just completely brutal and merciless.

 

I can argue that O/F aren't fan fueled but I'll hold my breath because I know people who think O/F are fan pandering won't likely change their minds, 

 

 LOL true. Nope very  like not. Good idea.

 

but even if they are fan fueled I'd much rather have a believable romance borne from loyalty, friendship, and honesty than a perplexing one with a history of cheating, lies, and more cheating any day.Then again, different strokes, different interpretations.

 

I can understand why that's endearing, it is and all love stories should aim for that, except believable to me  = not fan fueled/pandering. (Which of course you dont agree exist, totally cool with that) . In my eyes it is, so a lot of good Olicity stuff just dont mean as much to me  but also I havent liked the execution for Olicity. Its like what its supposed to be good in theory doesn't translate to the screen. Between Olicity and Lauriver , it doesnt have to be a trade of to me. If they are both terrible then its better to be left with neither. Or 3rd option?, not sure yet if I want that. 

Edited April 25, 2015 by Conell

[wonderwall]

The point is he will lose most of what he got, so what was even the point?, to go from 100 to 20 thats humiliating. Why did they even bother to give him Oliver's "stuff" to begin with, clearly it wasnt going to last and was meant for  a "he who laughs last..". Meanwhile Oliver had short term loses and will win everything back and more. Good, he is the hero of the show and all but they didnt have to leave Ray with nothing but a suit that isnt even working well yet. IMO.

 

IMO Ray never belonged on this show and was always on his own island. I don't think the writers failed with Ray by 'humiliating' him. I think the writers failed with Ray by just writing and characterizing him poorly. No one cares if Ray is 'perfect', but that's the point the writers tried to hit home and it never translated. IMO the failure of Ray has nothing to do with O/F and everything to do with failing to integrate him into the center fold. Not only did Ray suffer because of this because often his scenes just felt like they were from a different show, but Felicity suffered for it as well because they tried to force a romantic triangle that was already unnecessary because Oliver was already doing a good job screwing up the relationship. 

 

Now if the romantic triangle was unnecessary, why did they do it? Because I honestly feel like the writers wanted to make him look like a viable romantic lead. Again, nothing to do with O/F. And I don't think him acknowledging Felicity's feelings for Oliver (which have always been there and he got into the relationship knowing that Felicity had a 'something' with someone else, just watch episode 10 again) makes him their cheerleader. It just makes him aware of what's going on around him. 

 

What makes you think Ray will lose most of what he got though? He'll still have Palmer Tech (because it was a company long before the undertaking and Oliver taking back QC doesn't mean that Palmer Tech will disappear), he'll still have his suit, he'll have his new mission... What he won't have is a social life, but that's because Felicity was his only social life. That's not on O/F or Felicity. That's on him alone. 

[catrox14]

They gave him Oliver's stuff so they could tear down Oliver and set him apart from his team and make him "villainy" and to build up Phony Stark/Tin Man as the hero before spinning him off.

As to 12 to 14 year old girls comment being the focus it leaves out that 18 to 34 year old males are just as interested in Felicity getting naked and having a romance with Oliver because they want to be Oliver.

Edited April 25, 2015 by catrox14

[dtissagirl]

I only WISH they were writing Arrow with 12-14 girls in mind. I really, truly do.

[wonderwall]

From the script where Oliver was saying goodbye to Laurel, he apparently lies to her about where they're taking Thea... 

...

...

In an episode where Oliver was the most honest, it's funny how the only person he lied to was Laurel. 

 

Deleted Scene Script

[Guest]

From the script where Oliver was saying goodbye to Laurel, he apparently lies to her about where they're taking Thea... 

...

...

In an episode where Oliver was the most honest, it's funny how the only person he lied to was Laurel. 

 

Deleted Scene Script

 

 

Wow. Just…wow.

[apinknightmare]

Wow. Just…wow.

 

That really surprises me.

[Password]

Oliver is so used to lying to Laurel it just comes naturally. That is all.

[Guest]

That really surprises me.

 

Me too. He lied yet again. I guess maybe because she would want to go with them and he doesn't want that? I don't know. I don't really understand it tbh. But it speaks volumes as to where their relationship is at currently.

[CabotCove]

IMO Ray never belonged on this show and was always on his own island.

 

I honestly dont think I will ever understand what this means, Ray is quite the male version of Felicity in some ways, a character who is well integrated in the series and very well accepted.  In addition he is a "superhero" in a superhero series, yes Arrow never had fantastical moments but that totally went to hell with the intro of Lazarus pits and the first metahumans showing up on the show recently. The crossovers will likely make everything all mashed up, so Ray leaves but will likely still work with Arrow characters and visit maybe. Those different strokes I guess. 

 

Now if the romantic triangle was unnecessary, why did they do it? Because I honestly feel like the writers wanted to make him look like a viable romantic lead.

 

Im not one of those who think all romantic triangles are pointless. I guess this one helped stall an Olicity romance-reunion, gave Felicity life outside the cave and helped to "intergrate" Ray in the show. To me it seemed they wanted to make him a viable alternative choice for Felicity and they failed considering how it all ended. Either they just failed or are liars Imo.

 

What makes you think Ray will lose most of what he got though? He'll still have Palmer Tech (because it was a company long before the undertaking and Oliver taking back QC doesn't mean that Palmer Tech will disappear), he'll still have his suit, he'll have his new mission... What he won't have is a social life, but that's because Felicity was his only social life. That's not on O/F or Felicity. That's on him alone.

 

OK agree at least he will likely retain PT. If he is going to have a new group of team mates and friends in the spin off, how can he not have a social life?. I dont think he even cares that much about having a social life, but he will have one as he have acquired many fans through Felicity and he will make some. Whats on O/F and especially F is that he has will likely have a broken heart for a while, she could have broken up with him in a mature & caring manner Imo. 

Edited April 25, 2015 by Conell

[lemotomato]

The point is he loses most of what he got, so what was even the point?, to go from 100 to 20 that's humiliating. Why did they even bother to give him Oliver's "stuff" to begin with, clearly it wasn't going to last and was meant for a "he who laughs last..". Meanwhile Oliver had short term loses and will win everything back and more. Good, he is the hero of the show and all, he deserves some silver lining after everything but they didn't have to strip Ray of everything but a suit that isn't even working well yet. I dont think that a character who is loved by writers would be treated like that. All IMO.

But at least he is lucky to be treated better and not worse than the way they treated Sara. Now that was just completely brutal and merciless.

How much can Ray possibly lose when he's getting his own show? Meanwhile, Oliver gets ground into dust-- "short term losses??" his whole family was dead at one point in this episode!-- and people still begrudge him a moment of happiness with the woman he loves. Oliver is the titular hero, he should get more than a "silver lining."

I agree that Sara mistreated, but then again, she was literally dumped so Laurel could take her place.

Edited April 25, 2015 by lemotomato

[wonderwall]

I honestly dont think I will ever understand what this means, Ray is quite the male version of Felicity in some ways, a character who is well integrated in the series and very well accepted.  In addition he is a "superhero" in a superhero series, yes Arrow never had fantastical moments but that totally went to hell with the intro of Lazarus pits and the first metahumans showing up on the show recently. The crossovers will likely make everything all mashed up, so Ray leaves but will likely still work with Arrow characters and visit maybe. Those different strokes I guess. 

 

I mean with the way they wrote him. Ray could've easily belonged, but the way they wrote Ray by separating him into his own world for 16 episodes, by trying to make him his own lead in a show that already has a lead that's being marginalized just showed that he didn't belong to the show and his character would've actually benefited if his arc was cut down to 3-4 episodes instead of 18. 

[apinknightmare]

I honestly dont think I will ever understand what this means, Ray is quite the male version of Felicity in some ways, a character who is well integrated in the series and very well accepted.  In addition he is a "superhero" in a superhero series, yes Arrow never had fantastical moments but that totally went to hell with the intro of Lazarus pits and the first metahumans showing up on the show recently. The crossovers will likely make everything all mashed up, so Ray leaves but will likely still work with Arrow characters and visit maybe. Those different strokes I guess. 

 

What it means is that he didn't interact with anyone other than Felicity until 3x17. So, he was off on his own happy-go-lucky island that had a tone that didn't even fit with the rest of the show. They should've integrated him more and figured out a way to get him and Oliver or Diggle in a room together more often (although I know why they couldn't do that, because he truly couldn't know Oliver in order to think he was out murdering people). Ray's the type of guy who needs a straight man like Oliver, which is one of the reasons why Felicity worked so well - she brightened Oliver up. Put two Felicity's together and it's like you're watching a completely different show. 

[wonderwall]

That really surprises me.

 

I was wondering why he lied to her because Laurel was already in the know. But I honestly think he just didn't want to deal with her insisting that she come/trying to convince him to not commit suicide/usual histrionics maybe? But Laurel's reaction to Thea was such a... non reaction? You'd think they were strangers by that reaction and not friends with a history whatsoever. 

[nksarmi]

From the script where Oliver was saying goodbye to Laurel, he apparently lies to her about where they're taking Thea... 

...

...

In an episode where Oliver was the most honest, it's funny how the only person he lied to was Laurel. 

 

Deleted Scene Script

Which makes me even more glad that they cut it.

[Chaser]

I don't understand that deleted scene at all. I get why they cut it because it literally holds no relevance to anything and yeah it would have looked really bad in the episode. 

 

But why are they writing her interactions like this?

[SmallScreenDiva]

From the script where Oliver was saying goodbye to Laurel, he apparently lies to her about where they're taking Thea... 

...

...

In an episode where Oliver was the most honest, it's funny how the only person he lied to was Laurel. 

 

Deleted Scene Script

 

I really don't understand the lying anymore. She knows about the League of Assassins. I can't remember if she knows about Ra's offer (and I really can't be bothered to check). Why not just tell her about that and how Thea's life hangs in the balance? She and Thea actually have a relationship. She'd care if the younger woman died. See, this is why I can't give an eff about this character. Not when the show itself doesn't give me reason to. Earlier in this thread, I mentioned about groaning over the Felicity/Laurel scene. Because in this episode, heck, in the entire season, it felt unearned to me. Which is frustrating because it's something that could have been easily fixed with a few lines and interactions here and there. *sigh*

[wonderwall]

I really don't understand the lying anymore. 

 

I have my own interpretations just a couple of posts up. Because that's the only thing I can think of. And I wholeheartedly agree with you. It just goes to show that even with Laurel in the know, the writers still don't know how to handle her character or handle her relationships. She's honestly such a non-entity at this point. 

[Chaser]

It's not just that they wrote him lying to her again (when it makes no sense), but they wrote a non-reaction from Laurel. Look at the script pages for the Oliver and Felicity, they wrote the tone of the scene and mentioned the conviction in Felicity's voice. 

[apinknightmare]

I'd say he lied to her to keep her from going, but all Oliver needed to do was tell her that he needed someone to watch over the city. I mean, I figured that's why he would've told her not to go anyway. 

[lemotomato]

It might have just been easier to lie than to explain that they're taking Thea to Nanda Parbat because there's a magical life restoring hot tub there. They're in a hurry to leave, and even Diggle and Felicity tried to argue with him when he told them about the Lazarus Pits, so he fell back on his first instinct, which was to lie.

[wonderwall]

I'd say he lied to her to keep her from going, but all Oliver needed to do was tell her that he needed someone to watch over the city. I mean, I figured that's why he would've told her not to go anyway. 

That would've then brought up questions like: "Then why was Felicity allowed to go and not Laurel?"

Edited April 25, 2015 by wonderwall

[SmallScreenDiva]

I have my own interpretations just a couple of posts up. Because that's the only thing I can think of. And I wholeheartedly agree with you. It just goes to show that even with Laurel in the know, the writers still don't know how to handle her character or handle her relationships. She's honestly such a non-entity at this point. 

 

Didn't they say it was so much more fun to write Laurel now that she's in on the secret? Really? Because this tells me they still have no idea what to do with her. At this point, it'll be a mercy to just ship off Laurel to wherever and give Katie Cassidy a chance to be on a show that actually knows how to use her abilities. Because after three seasons, this is NOT WORKING.

 

I'd say he lied to her to keep her from going, but all Oliver needed to do was tell her that he needed someone to watch over the city. I mean, I figured that's why he would've told her not to go anyway. 

 

I really thought this was what they were going to do. In fact, when we got the look ahead promo and saw the clips with Laurel and what looked like Ray at a hangar (we now know that's not the case), I really thought it was because Oliver was going to tell them he was leaving the city in their hands. And yet they went with this?

[apinknightmare]

That would've then brought up questions like: "Then why was Felicity allowed to go and not Laurel?"

 

Simple. Because he and Felicity are in love with each other and he and Laurel aren't, and he obviously wanted Felicity with him, since he didn't put up even one bit of a fight when she told him she was going to go. I honestly thought he was going to ask Laurel to stay behind and watch over the city (which IMO would've appealed to her, especially Oliver giving a vote of confidence in her abilities).

[wonderwall]

(which IMO would've appealed to her, especially Oliver giving a vote of confidence in her abilities).

 

I would've found it odd for Oliver to be giving Laurel a vote of confidence in her abilities because he's still vehemently against her being a vigilante and showed no other indication that he may be changing his mind (as much as KC tries to point out that he thinks "oh she's so strong", that's not what's coming across on screen). It would've felt like a false moment. 

[apinknightmare]

I would've found it odd for Oliver to be giving Laurel a vote of confidence in her abilities because he's still vehemently against her being a vigilante and showed no other indication that he may be changing his mind (as much as KC tries to point out that he thinks "oh she's so strong", that's not what's coming across on screen). It would've felt like a false moment. 

 

Well, he wouldn't have been outright saying "you're the best omg you no longer need training!" but does he think that once he's gone she's just not going to go out anymore? He could just tell her that he wants her to stay and make sure things are safe, I mean, there are about a thousand reasons to not take her. Is Laurel Lance the person you want to take into the LoA compound at this point? Plus, she and Oliver are antagonistic as hell, and I'm guessing he didn't want to fight with her at that particular point. 

 

Actually, now I totally get why he lied to her. I wonder if at some point she was going to try to go, because didn't she have a bag in her hand in the preview? 

[Chaser]

At the end of the day, I really don't care why they wrote in Oliver lying to her again. It's just the fact that they did when there isn't a really good reason for it.

 

Oliver not telling her about Malcolm/Thea/Sara makes sense given the track record.

 

Not telling her about going to fight Ra's makes sense given that she didn't know about the above.

 

This? Doesn't make sense.

[wonderwall]

Lmao in the end it's all just perplexing to me. Even the reasons I've stated have holes in them too and there's no reason why the scene should've gone the way it was written in the script. This further emphasizes how the show is having trouble with Laurel even as BC... I think a lot of this also has to do with the writers not knowing what to do with Laurel's relationship with Oliver. Either they're having trouble or they just don't care, and I'm really starting to believe they don't care. 

 

But in the end, I don't really care. Laurel could leave the show and I wouldn't even bat an eyelash.

[CabotCove]

But why are they writing her interactions like this?

 

Because they dont give a f..k about the character and hate her?

 

I think a lot of this also has to do with the writers not knowing what to do with Laurel's relationship with Oliver. Either they're having trouble or they just don't care, and I'm really starting to believe they don't care.

 

Yeah likely the latter, I dont see whats so hard about writing a character telling the truth. 

 

And as for "Olicity cheerleading", with the exception of the last couple of episodes, there's been a distinct lack of Olicity this season (nothing in 3A except for 3x01 and a minute in 3x09) so I have no idea where you get this notion that "focusing on Oliver" means "focusing on Oliver's romances". Even in this episode, while one of the big moments is Olicity-related, the driving force behind everything that Oliver does is his love for Thea. He's giving up his life for his sister. That's the message of this episode, even if people choose to focus on the Olicity parts.

 

No I never said that. I know you will never likely see what I see, and thats Ok. But I also I know Im not the only one who who sees the same, especially beyond here and I would say "the fire is catching". And I have been loving the Tholiver arc for the most part and I really appreciate the show for spotlighting another relationship other than Olicity, the sibling storyline has been a good touch for the season. That being said it doesnt mean I will let Olicity off the hook for what I feel has been some bad execution and unnecessarily using a bit too much screentime (especially in this supposedly Thea/Tholiver episode, mostly). Yeah maybe there is also just a component of romantic relationships, that make people more critical and invested in them than of other types of relationships?. More Cheesy Writing? a love interest can be replaced by others? You cant change family or break up with family usually.

Edited April 25, 2015 by Conell

[Chaser]

It looks like there may have been a second page. Maybe its not so bad on page two? That may have the part about watching the city.

 

Doesn't change the part about him lying to her though.