S03.E13: March 8, 1983

[sistermagpie]

Why isn't there anything to say about the show, if you begin with the premise that you are a crappy parent if you deliberately have children while living illegally as a spy in another country?

 

 

I mean there's nothing left to say about their parenting style if they're just horrible because they're secret Russian spies. They're just judged as horrible up front so who cares if Philip is affectionate or Elizabeth tries to teach anybody good values? It seems one's less likely to be invested in Paige and parents coming to understand each other or not if they're just terrible parents.

 

In light of the scandal that will occur, am I really welcome in Pastor Tim's home?  Will he and Alice raise me and Henry?

 

 

 

If I were Henry I imagine I would resent Paige for the rest of my life, feeling like she intentionally got rid of our parents so she could live with the pastor and thus force me into that church group. What a nightmare to go from growing up in the home he did to being forced into Paige's obsession.

 

Aren't they? The Center is asking for their daughter's life. Not to kill her - worse - to make her give her life over to their service just because she was born to two of their spies

 

 

The point of the Bible story is killing the son (of course he already belongs to God) and they're not asking it to prove loyalty, they just see them as a valuable asset for them. So no, it doesn't seem like the same story.

 

I disagree that she dies if she doesn't say yes. Even as stupid as the KGB has been they'd have no reason to think they could just force random American kids to go to school, get jobs at the CIA and pass information to them upon pain of death--as if the kid couldn't go to the FBI. If they can just grab Americans and threaten to kill them if they don't work for them they could do that to any kid. But they've made a point throughout the show to show that they themselves know this is the worst type or recruitment. They need these kids to be converts.

 

Paige isn't thinking that. When on the phone, the FIRST thing that she said is that her parents are liars. THAT was the gist of her message. The fact that her parents aren't Americans was an "Oh By The Way". She just can't get over the fact that about 95% of everything that her parents have told her has been a lie.

 

 

And she's not turning them in. She's assuming Pastor Tim will not tell anyone else if she tells him not to do that.

Edited April 24, 2015 by sistermagpie

[lucindabelle]

These analogies to Jews in the Holocaust is making me very uncomfortable. Using genocide to make a point seems in poor taste

 

I totally agree, and I also object to having Judaism called an "ideology" when it is much more than that. I really think using other religions to make a point about this TV show is not a good idea. I'm not a Christian Scientist, but if I were I think I'd be offended.

 

Please be sensitive to those of us who care profoundly about our religions. Some of us are and have good parents,

[soapfaninnc]

I totally agree, and I also object to having Judaism called an "ideology" when it is much more than that. I really think using other religions to make a point about this TV show is not a good idea. I'm not a Christian Scientist, but if I were I think I'd be offended.

 

Please be sensitive to those of us who care profoundly about our religions. Some of us are and have good parents,

 

I feel the same about the Christian bashing that's taken place on this thread.  My objections to Elizabeth's parenting style have very little to do with her communism. I think Phillip is a very good parent. He cares about the children as people and wants them to have a chance to direct their own lives. Elizabeth doesn't see them as anything but tools - I'm not sure she sees anyone as having feelings - except herself and her sainted Gregory. Every so often she allows Phillip his feelings, but then she's so ugly about it later on, I can't count it to her credit. There are plenty of other good characters that are well developed to keep me watching the show, but she's not one of them. Not one iota of growth or change in three seasons and if she makes a bit of a gain she regresses almost immediately. 

 

I think being asked to give up one's child - to a cause the child doesn't believe in - either via death or them giving up their right to direct their own path in life - is bad parenting. Period. And that's based on my personal experience. Phillip is fighting like hell to keep his children's lives their own. Yes, he told Paige, but only because there was no other option at that point. He knows she's not OK - Elizabeth thinks because SHE saw her mother that Paige is ok because Elizabeth is ok and the hell with poor Phillip and she can't remotely connect with Henry so she doesn't seem to care where he is. 

 

And I complete disagree that the Center would hesitate to have Paige killed if she refuses to cooperate and turns in her parents to the authorities. They've killed others for lesser crimes - like needing someone inside a plant and having a car dropped on them for example. 

 

I find it ironic that Paige is being raked over the coals for talking to Pastor Tim when Elizabeth had been informing on Phillip for years to the Center and got him beaten up. Some family loyalty there, right Liz?

[lucindabelle]

I hope I haven't said anything that seems like Christian-bashing. If I have I apologize.

 

I don't object to Paige finding religion; I just find her immersion in it that tops her own family to strain belief. She's always seemed a sensitive person so I guess I just don't understand why meeting her grandmother had so little effect on her. I think a bright curious teen at that point would be dying to know more, more, more. Instead Paige just makes it me, me, me.

 

I don't trust Pastor Tim after the money thing. I give him a pass on the sleepover, though.

[John S]

I hope I haven't said anything that seems like Christian-bashing. If I have I apologize.

 

I don't object to Paige finding religion; I just find her immersion in it that tops her own family to strain belief. She's always seemed a sensitive person so I guess I just don't understand why meeting her grandmother had so little effect on her. I think a bright curious teen at that point would be dying to know more, more, more. Instead Paige just makes it me, me, me.

 

I don't trust Pastor Tim after the money thing. I give him a pass on the sleepover, though.

Paige did pray for her grandmother. That was NOT a me, me ,me, moment.

How much of an effect is she supposed to have after meeting her grandmother for just a few minutes, without even being able to verbally communicate with her?

Her immersion in her religion would not be unusual if the parents were also religious.

[sistermagpie]

And I complete disagree that the Center would hesitate to have Paige killed if she refuses to cooperate and turns in her parents to the authorities. They've killed others for lesser crimes - like needing someone inside a plant and having a car dropped on them for example.

 

 

 

The point isn't that the Centre wouldn't kill people, it's questioning what they would do here and I don't see anything in the stuff we've seen so far that this would be their thinking on this, that Paige should simply die if she doesn't agree to be a spy for them. Elizabeth's dropping the car on the guy was terrible but also had a cold logic I could follow and that fit with Elizabeth's character. If Paige turns her parents into the authorities what's done is done and there's no reason to kill her out of revenge, and they're trying to make Paige a convert to the cause, not simply tell her she has to be a spy for the KGB and assume that she won't think she has any way to resist that. They do care about the children of their Illegals.

 

I find it ironic that Paige is being raked over the coals for talking to Pastor Tim when Elizabeth had been informing on Phillip for years to the Center and got him beaten up. Some family loyalty there, right Liz?

 

 

Oh, I totally thought of that--in fact, I imagined a future scene where Elizabeth got furious about Paige telling as if it was something she would never do and Philip pointing out that wasn't true. Elizabeth's motives were even worse, imo, and done in cold blood. And she was completely self-righteous about it later, despite Philip being tortured for it.

 

I don't object to Paige finding religion; I just find her immersion in it that tops her own family to strain belief. She's always seemed a sensitive person so I guess I just don't understand why meeting her grandmother had so little effect on her

 

 

I could actually understand that--though maybe I was projecting. Paige has this idea in her mind about having family and she meets this woman, but if she doesn't feel like anything but a stranger (as she was), I think it could have just reinforced the lies if the whole trip was so disorienting and foreign to her it all just got overwhelming--here's this whole emotional scene that she's only witnessing by accident and it's so different from everything in her life before it's too much. 

 

Also I think she was maybe struggling with her anger with her mother as well. She doesn't want to be on this trip to understand Elizabeth better. When she said "How can I believe anything you say?" I don't think that was just her honestly saying she couldn't believe her. I think it was also an emotional reaction to Elizabeth suddenly wanting to pour out these memories and get a good reaction from Paige. I mean, Elizabeth really has been looking at this whole revelation as something she wanted for herself, so I think Paige is resisting that, and feeling too understanding of her mother just makes her more upset about the lying, I think. Elizabeth has a history of laying personal history on people hoping for understanding and agreement and sympathy.

 

That said, I think she is also very me, me, me and that's maybe partly her age but also her character. She and Elizabeth have always had similar personalities and part of them is that they both demand acknowledgement of their opinions and feelings. When Paige felt she was starting to become her own person, she felt the need to make that clear and make sure her parents understood who she was. Combine that with the anger and betrayal she was feeling about being lied to I think she definitely went into this trip demanding some emotional satisfaction for herself. Instead she just witnessed her mother getting it. She was sympathetic to the situation and made a point of praying for her mother, but also somewhat removed from it. This simply wasn't about her and she knew it.

 

It's funny, really, that the whole trip was really an idea of Philip's that probably could have benefited a little by his presence. He encouraged Elizabeth to go for herself because he thought the personal relationship should trump her job, that she should feel those emotions. He thought Paige should go because she was begging for real family and this was what he could give her. But on their own, Elizabeth simply reinforced her commitment (she and her mother agreeing it was worth it to send her away) and Paige felt left out. 

[Guest]

I hope that at 15 (as Page) I have the intelligence and experience to consider first what would happen to me and to Henry if I turn in my parents.  I have no relatives in the U.S.  My parents have no close friends.  In light of the scandal that will occur, am I really welcome in Pastor Tim's home?  Will he and Alice raise me and Henry? My parents will be executed...but I still have my ethics and morals.  What now?

Yeah, it's a little nutty.  I kind of feel like we ALL eventually learn our parents are not who we thought they were.  Part of growing up is learning to love them for all they were anyway.  Parenting by nature involves lies.  Santa, happily ever after, even just pretending to be the people they think we are, to better lead by example.

 

I've said this before but I wouldn't care if my parents were Russian, even back then.  I'd worry for their safety, though.  In the US our families are all from somewhere else, anyway.

 

I suggested Paige was going to go to Russia and decide it needs her help and jump on board.  I'm always wrong.  Now I think the Center will kill the pastor and she'll always wonder if it was due to her big mouth, and she'll never get on board but she'll STFU and resent the hell out of them.  

[lucindabelle]

Paige did pray for her grandmother. That was NOT a me, me ,me, moment.

How much of an effect is she supposed to have after meeting her grandmother for just a few minutes, without even being able to verbally communicate with her?

Her immersion in her religion would not be unusual if the parents were also religious.

 

Actually she said I'm praying for "your mother." Not "my grandmother." It was a dialogue choice I noted that I thought was strange. Why travel all that way to meet someone and then act as if you're not related?

 

Exactly, the immersion wouldn't be at all unusual if it were a family thing. The degree of it without that strikes me as faddish.

[millennium]

Paige will not have a life of her own if the Center gets its way and Elizabeth is all for it. She refuses to see that Paige might be jailed, or killed, or have to honey trap someone to survive. 

 

Or snap their bones and jam them into a suitcase.   Or kill innocent old women who go into the office at night to do bookkeeping.  Or stand by as a man is burned alive inside an old tire.

 

That is the flaw in this entire storyline.   No one short of a sociopath would induct a child into that life.   A very plausible argument could be made that Elizabeth is a sociopath, and Philip too (though to a lesser extent perhaps).   But the sociopathic personality is at odds with the concept of being a loving parent.    The writers can't have it both ways.   Elizabeth can't be a loving mother AND want her child to be recruited for a life of lies, cruelty and despair; Philip can't be a loving father and go along with it.

 

They NEVER should have had children in the first place.   I know, I know, it helped with their cover story.   But come on, how many childless couples lived in the metro DC area and were never regarded as potential spies?   I would think the potential risk of bringing kids into the equation would outweigh any perceived benefit.

 

(What did you do to Martha, Philip?)

[RedheadZombie]

  

Absolute 100% blind loyalty to one's family - no matter what - is what protects those committing incest.  It's what's allowed the mafia to flourish for a century.  Philip and Elizabeth are not performing heroic acts, they are working to destroy the country Paige considers her homeland.

Glad to know you think beingJewish is ethical. But what if you could have your kids convert? Many people had at option and would die before doing it. By your reasoning, every Jew who didn't convert during the inquisition was a terrible, terrible, parent. As a Jew, I find that a pretty disrespectful thing to assert. Some people really care about these things and it's nt all "better alternative" or pragmatism. Heck many people right now would have an easier life if they weren't Jeiwsh, should they convert or pass? The whole idea that people should somehow not commit to their ideology or religion because others persecute them is foreign, to me. Maybe you have to be a member of a persecuted minority to really understand this.

Many parents love their religion and ideology and I don't know why you think this is a bad things we've actually never seen P and E ne awful parents. Remember when Elizabeth pierced Paige's ear?

Suggesting that family loyalty is akin to invest and serial killing is taking this to the extreme. I simply do not BUY that Page would react that way. I don't believe it. It's implausible, you're arguing something else entirely.,

 

 

I think you're deliberately twisting my words, and bunching your response to my post with talk of anti-Semitism (which the OP in no way suggested) is not appreciated.  But I'm not arguing about it, and this will be my last post on that topic.

[albaniantv]

Thanks, Millennium for that bit of wisdom about resorting to using the Holocaust in online discussions. I think the Holocaust is off-topic in a thread about the current episode, but if there is support for its relevance in discussions about parenting by Philip and Elizabeth, why not move it to their thread or create another thread about parenting?

 

The problem for me is that in online discussions, the Holocaust is often brought up as a way to "win" an argument and that tactic, to me, cheapens the discussion and diminishes the impact and horrors of the Holocaust itself. Every time I have made an exception and tried to understand the relevance as explained by the viewer, the discussion invariably deteriorates into simplicities, attacks or bigotry. 

 

So unless an episode references the Holocaust, I suggest we find a way to have those discussions offstage.

[sistermagpie]

Or snap their bones and jam them into a suitcase.   Or kill innocent old women who go into the office at night to do bookkeeping.  Or stand by as a man is burned alive inside an old tire.

 

 

At the moment Elizabeth seems to believe that isn't an issue. Paige is just supposed to have a cushy job at the CIA and pass secrets-no honeytrapping or murder involved. 

 

Of course I would say that that, too, is a terrible life I would never wish on my kid. It's terrible for her to suggest even that for Paige. But plenty of parents have encouraged their kids to fight battles that they think are worthy fighting even if it might kill them. It's certainly what she was taught. I've started liking Elizabeth's father so much more since her mother's cold dismissal of him as a traitor to the Communist cause and a coward because he ran away in battle. Imagine your wife having that little compassion for you because you were afraid! 

[Dev F]

I hope that at 15 (as Page) I have the intelligence and experience to consider first what would happen to me and to Henry if I turn in my parents.  I have no relatives in the U.S.  My parents have no close friends.  In light of the scandal that will occur, am I really welcome in Pastor Tim's home?  Will he and Alice raise me and Henry? My parents will be executed...but I still have my ethics and morals.  What now?

 

Isn't that what morality is, though? To sacrifice your own material happiness for some higher principle, whether it's honesty on one side or loyalty on the other?

 

And, of course, people also do find themselves torn between their moral convictions and their own needs and desires, but that struggle doesn't negate the principle itself. If morality is just doing what makes you comfortable and happy, there's hardly a need for it, is there?

 

I don't object to Paige finding religion; I just find her immersion in it that tops her own family to strain belief. She's always seemed a sensitive person so I guess I just don't understand why meeting her grandmother had so little effect on her. I think a bright curious teen at that point would be dying to know more, more, more. Instead Paige just makes it me, me, me.

 

So wanting to be an honest person is a purely selfish impulse, but wanting to know about your family is pure and noble? That's an arbitrary distinction; both are moral impulses, in that they both represent grander principles that one might find it important to follow even if they conflict with one's material needs and desires. You're stacking the deck by assigning great weight to one of them and scoffing at the other.

[John S]

Actually she said I'm praying for "your mother." Not "my grandmother." It was a dialogue choice I noted that I thought was strange. Why travel all that way to meet someone and then act as if you're not related?

 

Exactly, the immersion wouldn't be at all unusual if it were a family thing. The degree of it without that strikes me as faddish.

Since I have no idea what Paige said, I'll take your word for it. It is still possible that Paige feels like Elizabeth is not her mother but she still prayed for Elizabeth's mother because it would be the "Christian" thing to do. I'm sure that Paige doesn't want the woman to die.

[millennium]

Huh? There's no trickery going on. Philip and Elizabeth both said she's alive, and he killed Gene because of it. No reason to kill Gene if Martha's dead.

 

 

My point was, they had Philip wandering around in a funereal funk for the whole episode, leading any reasonable viewer to conclude he had done something really awful to Martha (since Martha appeared to be in mortal peril at the end of the previous episode).   I believe Philip really does love Martha in a way.   I think Martha symbolizes the road not taken for Philip; that is, the many possibilities that would have been open to him had he been born in America, or perhaps if he defected.   I can understand that having to kill her would devastate him, in part because he literally cares for her but more so because it would represent snuffing out that dream that still flickers inside him.

 

So anyway, Philip walks around like a zombie the whole episode, walks away from easy sex with Sandra (as I'm screaming "you idiot!" at the TV), goes all emo while home alone ... what should we think except that he killed Martha.   Then we're told, nope, Martha's still alive.   She's processing everything.   Uh-huh.

 

That's why I felt the episode was a cheat.

Edited April 24, 2015 by millennium

[txhorns79]

Actually she said I'm praying for "your mother." Not "my grandmother." It was a dialogue choice I noted that I thought was strange. Why travel all that way to meet someone and then act as if you're not related?

 

In the context of all that has gone on, I don't find it strange at all that Paige is not referring to Elizabeth's mother as her grandmother.  She sympathizes with Elizabeth because she could see Elizabeth's reaction to seeing her mother, but she doesn't know her grandmother at all and didn't even know she existed until a few weeks before.  Referring to her as "your mother" instead of "my grandmother" was a way to disassociate with what was happening.  It's just too much for Paige to handle otherwise.       

[sistermagpie]

I can understand that having to kill her would devastate him, in part because he literally cares for her but more so because it would represent snuffing out that dream that still flickers inside him.

 

 

I don't know...I don't see why Clark would represent that dream to him any more than his real life does. That's the life where he has a wife he loves and two children, which, if he was really Philip Jennings, would be great. I don't think he really puts that many dreams onto Martha. I think the dream he has for her is that he could actually give her the things she wants and leave her happy and fulfilled with the family she craves. There's not much he can get out of it beyond that that I can see.

 

So anyway, Philip walks around like a zombie the whole episode, walks away from easy sex with Sandra (as I'm screaming "you idiot!" at the TV), goes all emo while home alone ... what should we think except that he killed Martha.   Then we're told, nope, Martha's still alive.   She's processing everything.   Uh-huh.

 

 

I didn't see Philip turning down easy sex from Sandra. That's not who either character is, imo. Sex without intimacy is what they're trying to get away from.

 

When in the ep did Philip kill Gene? I thought that moment was pretty obviously showing he hadn't killed Martha, and it was a huge part of what made him emo and moping at home.

[RedheadZombie]

If I were Henry I imagine I would resent Paige for the rest of my life, feeling like she intentionally got rid of our parents so she could live with the pastor and thus force me into that church group. What a nightmare to go from growing up in the home he did to being forced into Paige's obsession.

 

I don't see this - at all.  Paige wants to be adopted by the pastor and Henry to be forced into the church?

 

Paige did pray for her grandmother. That was NOT a me, me ,me, moment.

How much of an effect is she supposed to have after meeting her grandmother for just a few minutes, without even being able to verbally communicate with her?

Her immersion in her religion would not be unusual if the parents were also religious.

 

I don't see Paige as selfish, either.  I find the suggestion a little silly.

 

I feel the same about the Christian bashing that's taken place on this thread.  My objections to Elizabeth's parenting style have very little to do with her communism. I think Phillip is a very good parent. He cares about the children as people and wants them to have a chance to direct their own lives. Elizabeth doesn't see them as anything but tools - I'm not sure she sees anyone as having feelings - except herself and her sainted Gregory. Every so often she allows Phillip his feelings, but then she's so ugly about it later on, I can't count it to her credit. There are plenty of other good characters that are well developed to keep me watching the show, but she's not one of them. Not one iota of growth or change in three seasons and if she makes a bit of a gain she regresses almost immediately. 

 

I think being asked to give up one's child - to a cause the child doesn't believe in - either via death or them giving up their right to direct their own path in life - is bad parenting. Period. And that's based on my personal experience. Phillip is fighting like hell to keep his children's lives their own. Yes, he told Paige, but only because there was no other option at that point. He knows she's not OK - Elizabeth thinks because SHE saw her mother that Paige is ok because Elizabeth is ok and the hell with poor Phillip and she can't remotely connect with Henry so she doesn't seem to care where he is. 

 

And I complete disagree that the Center would hesitate to have Paige killed if she refuses to cooperate and turns in her parents to the authorities. They've killed others for lesser crimes - like needing someone inside a plant and having a car dropped on them for example. 

 

I find it ironic that Paige is being raked over the coals for talking to Pastor Tim when Elizabeth had been informing on Phillip for years to the Center and got him beaten up. Some family loyalty there, right Liz?

 

Yes, yes, and more yes!  How is Paige the villain on a show with murder, betrayal, and treason?  I admit I was blindly loyal to Philip and Elizabeth in season one, but that was many moons (and innocent corpses) ago.  If I had to guess, I would guess it's because KR and MR are phenomenal in their roles, and the actress portraying Paige is becoming increasingly strident and shrill (obviously with reason).  The expectation of blind loyalty and complete obedience to parents - even though they're murderers committing treason - is just so ......... Soviet! 

 

And as you point out - Elizabeth was completely disloyal to Philip - for years.  She had no concern that he might be murdered, sent to Siberia, or that her children would lose their father.  So if Paige is making a selfish decision, she was taught at her mother's knee.  Even so, what Elizabeth did was so much more vindictive.  Philip never actually did anything wrong in the job, he just wasn't as fanatical as she thought he should be. 

  

Yeah, it's a little nutty.  I kind of feel like we ALL eventually learn our parents are not who we thought they were.  Part of growing up is learning to love them for all they were anyway.  Parenting by nature involves lies.  Santa, happily ever after, even just pretending to be the people they think we are, to better lead by example.

 

I've said this before but I wouldn't care if my parents were Russian, even back then.  I'd worry for their safety, though.  In the US our families are all from somewhere else, anyway.

 

I've never gotten the impression that Paige's problem is that her parents are Russians, it's that they're Russian spies.  Yes, she told Pastor Tim they're Russian, but that's just typical finale writing to string along the suspense - will she tell him they're spies???

 

And maybe I grew up in Disneyland, but Paige's parents aren't simply growing a little weed in the basement, or committing tax fraud.  They are (in essence) monsters.  I don't see the nobility in protecting them.  Hence my drawing the comparison to protecting the mafia and incest perpetrators due to blind family loyalty - which was twisted from a prior post.  Prior to graduating from the police academy, my cousin told his father (a very shady man) that if he caught him breaking the law, he would be arrested.

 

At the moment Elizabeth seems to believe that isn't an issue. Paige is just supposed to have a cushy job at the CIA and pass secrets-no honeytrapping or murder involved. 

 

If Elizabeth truly believes this, it's willful ignorance.  Elizabeth, more than the cushy rezidentura KGB, knows the truth about the job.

[Umbelina]

I didn't think the episode was a cheat. 

 

Philip is under a lot of pressure.  He HATED the assignment with Kimmy, refused his orders to sleep with her, and found another way to accomplish the mission.  He HATES that Center wants Paige to be a spy, of any kind.  He hated killing Analiese, one of his agents that he spent a lot of time recruiting.  He's still in shock about what happened to his friends and coworkers when their son killed them, and their daughter.  It's also probably one of the reasons Philip and Elizabeth have so many assignments lately and are stretched so thin, 2 Operations Officers down.  He knows that Martha is in extreme danger, and he hates that too.  He couldn't stand the guy burning to death.  He's worried about his wife.  He's wondering about honesty, and reflecting back on his "sexual education" at such a young age, which is part of the reason he went to EST.

 

I think it was obvious Martha wasn't dead yet, and there was no reason for her to be.  He found another way, a perfect scapegoat for her.  He hated doing that too.

 

Meanwhile, the work he's been doing, to stop stealth, to aid the anti apartheid movement, to stop the USA from arming the Islamic Fundamentalists, etc. is something he does believe in.  He defied the Kremlin and sent Paige and Elizabeth off (to West Germany!  On their own passports!  Elizabeth's being fake!) to see Elizabeth's mom!  To say the Kremlin is going to be furious is an understatement.

 

He's in crisis, as shown by his not even realizing he better give Martha a head's up about Gene's murder and that it will get her off the hook.  As Elizabeth said, "He's not thinking clearly."  He's breaking down, and I think it was an amazing episode in every way. 

 

I loved, loved, loved Paige reacting as she has.  She is a kid, and for her to be completely logical, sensible, and controlled about this would have pissed me off.  She just turned 15!  Of course she isn't going to be able to keep a huge secret like that, and not need to vent.  She can't vent to her parents, because much like the boy that killed his?  She doesn't trust them, everything has been a lie.  "Everything" hasn't, but she's an emotional teenager, prone to extremes of sentiment. 

 

As far as parents never putting their kids in danger?  Colonists would have never taken leaky ships to the savage and strange new world.  We would still curtsy to the Queen.    Covered wagons venturing into "Indian territory" and the wild west, lack of stores/water/safety/comfort/security would have never happened.  French resistance wouldn't have happened, and on and on and on.  It's a pointless argument.

Edited April 24, 2015 by Umbelina

[bluebonnet]

Someone recently linked an interview where the showrunners stated Pastor Tim was what he seemed.  I thought it was this one but I can't find it.  Does anyone recall the link or the direct quote?

[Umbelina]

I remember reading it when they said it. 

 

Part of me keeps thinking "that was then, this is now" but maybe not, bluebonnet. 

 

The KGB is seriously inept if they did this without some kind of back up though, and he'd be perfect for that.  People complain about the FBI being stupid, but maybe this really is what it seems, the KGB being stupid.

 

Balance.

Edited April 24, 2015 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

I don't see this - at all.  Paige wants to be adopted by the pastor and Henry to be forced into the church?

 

 

I'm not saying it's reality. I was reacting to the speculation about a Paige who was thinking about being adopted by the Pastor if she turned in her parents. Nothing to do with the actual events of the show. I was just saying that if Paige was this person who worked it out so their parents were arrested and they went to live with the pastor if I were Henry I'd be furious.

 

I don't see Paige as selfish, either.  I find the suggestion a little silly.

 

 

I would use the word selfish--it's not meant in a judgmental way. She was going on the trip looking for some emotional solace and that was where her focus was. She wasn't going to support her mother or feel sorry for her mother. There's nothing wrong with that, but that seems to be where her head is at right now (understandably). She's demanding things that she needs for herself, not thinking about what her mother's going through or whatever. Even the idea that her mother was sent away at a young age led to--would you do that to ME?? She's looking for all kinds of reassurance for herself.

 

I've never gotten the impression that Paige's problem is that her parents are Russians, it's that they're Russian spies.

 

 

I think she's made it very clear that her problem is also that they are Russian because they lied about it and lied about everything in their background. She hasn't yet dealt with what they might be doing to other people so much. It's the illusions they've created for her that's a problem. The spying is part of that, but so is the Russian-ness because it's all connected. She of course wouldn't have a problem with them just being Russian in itself. The whole "speak Russian" thing was seeing them as aliens who even hide the way they talk, even hide their names. Really, isn't that what's central to their spying, their ability to pass as locals? It's the freakiest thing about them and the project!

 

If Elizabeth truly believes this, it's willful ignorance.  Elizabeth, more than the cushy rezidentura KGB, knows the truth about the job.

 

 

Elizabeth is pretty good at willful ignorance. Amazingly good. And I think this would be easy for her to assume--she's not forcing Lisa to kill anybody, for instance. She flat-out said this is what she believed to Philip.

Edited April 24, 2015 by sistermagpie

[millennium]

At the moment Elizabeth seems to believe that isn't an issue. Paige is just supposed to have a cushy job at the CIA and pass secrets-no honeytrapping or murder involved. 

 

 

Did I miss this somewhere?   Did Elizabeth say that?   It's possible it got past me because I tend to watch online with the window "popped out" (Hulu-speak) in one corner of my monitor while doing other things.

[sistermagpie]

Did I miss this somewhere?   Did Elizabeth say that?   It's possible it got past me because I tend to watch online with the window "popped out" (Hulu-speak) in one corner of my monitor while doing other things.

 

 

Yup. I forget which ep, but it's where Philip and Elizabeth are arguing in the bathroom. He demands to know if she really believes that Paige will just get some cushy job with the CIA for 20 years passing stuff and Elizabeth says, "Why not? That's what they need!" I think there's other lines more to the point too--oh yes, it's the scene where Philip says he doesn't want Paige to ever have to put anybody in a suitcase or wind up in a suitcase and I think Elizabeth responds that that wouldn't be her job. Philip reminds her that things "always change" (meaning that at some point the Centre always seems to want more).

 

And it winds up even more to the point where Elizabeth says, "What do you want, Philip? You want life to be easy?" And he says "For my daughter? Yeah!"

[lucindabelle]

Thanks, Millennium for that bit of wisdom about resorting to using the Holocaust in online discussions. I think the Holocaust is off-topic in a thread about the current episode, but if there is support for its relevance in discussions about parenting by Philip and Elizabeth, why not move it to their thread or create another thread about parenting?

 

The problem for me is that in online discussions, the Holocaust is often brought up as a way to "win" an argument and that tactic, to me, cheapens the discussion and diminishes the impact and horrors of the Holocaust itself. Every time I have made an exception and tried to understand the relevance as explained by the viewer, the discussion invariably deteriorates into simplicities, attacks or bigotry. 

 

So unless an episode references the Holocaust, I suggest we find a way to have those discussions offstage.

AGREED.

I think it's very insensitive. I'm Jewish and take it personally, and I don't appreciate being told I'm accusing people of being anti-Semitic when I merely object to people using the genocide of my relations-- this is very real to me-- to score a point. It's almost like if someone says "how dare you call me anti-Semitic (which I didn't) it's just OK to make use of the tragedy that happend in my parents' lifetime. I really think using "Jews and the Holocaust" as a stray comment makes it seem like something that happened in the distant past that we know of through a movie and it isn't.

Isn't that what morality is, though? To sacrifice your own material happiness for some higher principle, whether it's honesty on one side or loyalty on the other?

 

And, of course, people also do find themselves torn between their moral convictions and their own needs and desires, but that struggle doesn't negate the principle itself. If morality is just doing what makes you comfortable and happy, there's hardly a need for it, is there?

 

 

So wanting to be an honest person is a purely selfish impulse, but wanting to know about your family is pure and noble? That's an arbitrary distinction; both are moral impulses, in that they both represent grander principles that one might find it important to follow even if they conflict with one's material needs and desires. You're stacking the deck by assigning great weight to one of them and scoffing at the other.

 That's not what I'm saying at all. I think that Paige is not an "honest person," and that Elizabeth was quite right when she said "everybody lies." Hell, she's lying when she calls the Pastor (by omission). I'm not scoffing nor assigning great weight. I disagree with you on who is right here. Remember, Paige doesn't know everything we know about P&E. I just don't understand-- and frankly don't find plausible-- that merely finding out they have an identiy she didn't know about would make her this miserable. I would imagine she'd want to KNOW about it, would be asking questions about her government and theirs. But nooooo. We just see her basically feeling sorry for herself. I don't see her pity party as a noble thing, particularly. I think she could get more answers if she went to the people who could give them to her.

 

That is not Pastor Tim.

[Bannon]

I mean there's nothing left to say about their parenting style if they're just horrible because they're secret Russian spies. They're just judged as horrible up front so who cares if Philip is affectionate or Elizabeth tries to teach anybody good values? It seems one's less likely to be invested in Paige and parents coming to understand each other or not if they're just terrible parents.

 

 

If I were Henry I imagine I would resent Paige for the rest of my life, feeling like she intentionally got rid of our parents so she could live with the pastor and thus force me into that church group. What a nightmare to go from growing up in the home he did to being forced into Paige's obsession.

 

 

The point of the Bible story is killing the son (of course he already belongs to God) and they're not asking it to prove loyalty, they just see them as a valuable asset for them. So no, it doesn't seem like the same story.

 

I disagree that she dies if she doesn't say yes. Even as stupid as the KGB has been they'd have no reason to think they could just force random American kids to go to school, get jobs at the CIA and pass information to them upon pain of death--as if the kid couldn't go to the FBI. If they can just grab Americans and threaten to kill them if they don't work for them they could do that to any kid. But they've made a point throughout the show to show that they themselves know this is the worst type or recruitment. They need these kids to be converts.

 

 

And she's not turning them in. She's assuming Pastor Tim will not tell anyone else if she tells him not to do that.

Well, the only time I'll note how hideous they are as parents at this time is when someone makes, wrongly, the claim that Paige owes her parents something. She owes them absolutely nothing, because Paige's parents have engaged in absolutely, completely contemptible behavior. If Paige's parents wanted to be treated with respect again, in their role as parents, the first thing they need to do is get down on their knees, perhaps literally, acknolwledge how contemptible their behavior has been, explain why the behavior was contemptible, apologize profusely, and outline a plan by which they hope to repair the damage they have done. Then, if there is evidence that they have made a good faith effort to execute that plan, and only then, Paige may have some obligation to her parents. 

 

To reiterate, I'll make this promise. If I don't have to read a comment from anyone with regard to Paige not giving  something that is owed her parents, I will refrain from noting why this is not the case.

[soapfaninnc]

Or snap their bones and jam them into a suitcase.   Or kill innocent old women who go into the office at night to do bookkeeping.  Or stand by as a man is burned alive inside an old tire.

 

That is the flaw in this entire storyline.   No one short of a sociopath would induct a child into that life.   A very plausible argument could be made that Elizabeth is a sociopath, and Philip too (though to a lesser extent perhaps).   But the sociopathic personality is at odds with the concept of being a loving parent.    The writers can't have it both ways.   Elizabeth can't be a loving mother AND want her child to be recruited for a life of lies, cruelty and despair; Philip can't be a loving father and go along with it.

 

I see Elizabeth as a narcissist. My mother was one. Nothing and no one exists except in relation to her. Everything is about her or must become about her to be considered important. She is always the victim, the most put upon, etc. She is never wrong. 

 

Phillip is doing his dead level best to give his children the freedom to make their own choices. We've seen how the job is slowly killing him inside. We get nothing of his backstory, but loads of Elizabeth. Elizabeth even gets some guy who just thought she was the best thing since sliced bread and died for her beloved cause. (The whole cause thing with Elizabeth reminds me ever so much of 'The Glorious Cause' they kept blathering on about in Gone With the Wind). 

 

It's not Elizabeth's beliefs in communism or that the US is evil or Reagan is evil that make her an awful parent. It's her narcissism. The children and Phillip only exist to her as extensions of herself. Truthfully, its probably pretty realistic of a spy. You'd have to be self absorbed and fanatical to your 'cause'.

 

The whole 'Paige owes her parents' reminds me of the scene in Guess Who's Coming to Dinner' when Sidney Poitiers' father is guilt tripping him and he says that he doesn't owe his father - his father did what parents were supposed to do - what he would do for his child. Paige is a 15 year old girl. Teenagers see things in black and white and are self centered as a general rule. I feel for the character - learning your parents have been lying to you and everyone else your entire life. Yes, people lie. But she's fifteen and fifteen year olds expect their parents to generally tell them the truth.

Edited April 24, 2015 by soapfaninnc

[lucindabelle]

Well, the only time I'll note how hideous they are as parents at this time is when someone makes, wrongly, the claim that Paige owes her parents something. She owes them absolutely nothing, because Paige's parents have engaged in absolutely, completely contemptible behavior. If Paige's parents wanted to be treated with respect again, in their role as parents, the first thing they need to do is get down on their knees, perhaps literally, acknolwledge how contemptible their behavior has been, explain why the behavior was contemptible, apologize profusely, and outline a plan by which they hope to repair the damage they have done. Then, if there is evidence that they have made a good faith effort to execute that plan, and only then, Paige may have some obligation to her parents. 

 

To reiterate, I'll make this promise. If I don't have to read a comment from anyone with regard to Paige not giving  something that is owed her parents, I will refrain from noting why this is not the case.

 

But you are calling them terrible parents because of things that have little to do with their parenting.

They have loved Paige, brought her up, fed her, clothed her, kept her safe, her whole entire life. I don't think that's erased because you think they are bad people.

 

And I don't think they owe her apologies for their actions that have literally nothing to do with her.

Their role as parents has nothing to do with their roles as spies, or at least, is not wholly consumed by it.

 

Your line of reasoning would argue that if a child is a pacifist, he/she would owe a parent who's in the army nothing. I agree there are probably lines, if a parent is a serial killer, and you could probably argue that P&E are, but I would disagree with that, because they see themselves as soldiers, and in wartime, soldiers do terrible things.

 

Paige is still their daughter and I think she will always owe them some filial respect.

[Bannon]

AGREED.

I think it's very insensitive. I'm Jewish and take it personally, and I don't appreciate being told I'm accusing people of being anti-Semitic when I merely object to people using the genocide of my relations-- this is very real to me-- to score a point. It's almost like if someone says "how dare you call me anti-Semitic (which I didn't) it's just OK to make use of the tragedy that happend in my parents' lifetime. I really think using "Jews and the Holocaust" as a stray comment makes it seem like something that happened in the distant past that we know of through a movie and it isn't.

 That's not what I'm saying at all. I think that Paige is not an "honest person," and that Elizabeth was quite right when she said "everybody lies." Hell, she's lying when she calls the Pastor (by omission). I'm not scoffing nor assigning great weight. I disagree with you on who is right here. Remember, Paige doesn't know everything we know about P&E. I just don't understand-- and frankly don't find plausible-- that merely finding out they have an identiy she didn't know about would make her this miserable. I would imagine she'd want to KNOW about it, would be asking questions about her government and theirs. But nooooo. We just see her basically feeling sorry for herself. I don't see her pity party as a noble thing, particularly. I think she could get more answers if she went to the people who could give them to her.

 

That is not Pastor Tim.

I dunno about you, but when I discover that somebody has been lying to me about very fundamental things, for years on end, I'm done asking them questions, because i make the reasonable conclusion that the person will not answer the questions truthfullly.

 

Yes everybody lies. It's a trivial observation, in that it obscures that some people lie more consistently, about much more important things. It is simply false to think that everyone lies to the same degree, or that those differences in degree are irrelevant.

[John S]

But you are calling them terrible parents because of things that have little to do with their parenting.

They have loved Paige, brought her up, fed her, clothed her, kept her safe, her whole entire life. I don't think that's erased because you think they are bad people.

 

And I don't think they owe her apologies for their actions that have literally nothing to do with her.

Their role as parents has nothing to do with their roles as spies, or at least, is not wholly consumed by it.

 

Your line of reasoning would argue that if a child is a pacifist, he/she would owe a parent who's in the army nothing. I agree there are probably lines, if a parent is a serial killer, and you could probably argue that P&E are, but I would disagree with that, because they see themselves as soldiers, and in wartime, soldiers do terrible things.

 

Paige is still their daughter and I think she will always owe them some filial respect.

She is also 15 - the time when teenagers rebel against parents - and then add on to that the fact that the vast majority of what they have told her has been lies.

This is how she is acting out. It hasn't been with alcohol, drugs, skipping school, causing trouble in school, or boys.

Maybe when she gets older, she will begin to show them the respect that they should probably have - but not at this time.

I dunno about you, but when I discover that somebody has been lying to me about very fundamental things, for years on end, I'm done asking them questions, because i make the reasonable conclusion that the person will not answer the questions truthfullly.

 

Yes everybody lies. It's a trivial observation, in that it obscures that some people lie more consistently, about much more important things. It is simply false to think that everyone lies to the same degree, or that those differences in degree are irrelevant.

Paige already said to Elizabeth in the car "How can I believe anything that you say".

She said to the pastor - "They are such liars".

It must be horrendous to be 15 years old and not believe ANYTHING that your parents say - and she is supposed to respect them?

[Bannon]

But you are calling them terrible parents because of things that have little to do with their parenting.

They have loved Paige, brought her up, fed her, clothed her, kept her safe, her whole entire life. I don't think that's erased because you think they are bad people.

 

And I don't think they owe her apologies for their actions that have literally nothing to do with her.

Their role as parents has nothing to do with their roles as spies, or at least, is not wholly consumed by it.

 

Your line of reasoning would argue that if a child is a pacifist, he/she would owe a parent who's in the army nothing. I agree there are probably lines, if a parent is a serial killer, and you could probably argue that P&E are, but I would disagree with that, because they see themselves as soldiers, and in wartime, soldiers do terrible things.

 

Paige is still their daughter and I think she will always owe them some filial respect.

Exposing your children to the risk of your being imprisoned is part of your parenting. It is simply and wholly inaccurate to claim that a prent's willful decision to engage in illegal behavior is not part of their parenting.. John Gotti's decision to run a mob family was part of his parenting, because the decision to run a mob family has an impact on the risks his real family faces. Same as the fictional Walter White. same as the fictional Phillip and Elizabeth, and, no, it makes not a bit of difference that Philip and Elizabeth's motivations are political as opposed to monetary.

 

It is to deny observable reality to claim that a parent's decision to be a criminal has nothing to do with the parents interaction with the parent's children. I know you disgaree, but Paige owes them nothing, and i will note that disgagreement every time that claim is made.

[gwhh]

The problem with communist is that it works GREAT on paper and does not work at all in the real world.  So that why the KGB keeps trying this idea!  Because its in there DNA to do things that go against human natural 

 

Just see how the KGB is running Russia into the ground now a days! 

 

I don't understand why a 15 year old, upon examining her parents obvious dishonesty for an extended period of time, and then asking for some answers,and then being told that the parents were involved in activities which could result in the children being wards of the state, as the parents do their life sentences (even ignoring how making Paige an accessory endangers her), can be expected to react in any other way but furious anger. Frankly, that's the reason the story arc requires such a huge suspension of disbelief, would the KGB be so ignorant of human psychology and physiology as to not completely expect a 15 year old to react in this manner?

No, I suspect that Gaad was lying to Stan when he told Stan that he was recommending, to the Director of the FBI, that Stan be fired and investigated. Gaad plays the bad cop, and then Stan gets a lifesaver thrown to him. 

Edited April 24, 2015 by gwhh

[millennium]

That's not what I'm saying at all. I think that Paige is not an "honest person," and that Elizabeth was quite right when she said "everybody lies." Hell, she's lying when she calls the Pastor (by omission). I'm not scoffing nor assigning great weight. I disagree with you on who is right here. Remember, Paige doesn't know everything we know about P&E. I just don't understand-- and frankly don't find plausible-- that merely finding out they have an identiy she didn't know about would make her this miserable. I would imagine she'd want to KNOW about it, would be asking questions about her government and theirs. But nooooo. We just see her basically feeling sorry for herself. I don't see her pity party as a noble thing, particularly. I think she could get more answers if she went to the people who could give them to her.

 

That is not Pastor Tim.

 

Paige is a problem child.   Yes, her parents lied to her and she just discovered that her home life, to some extent, is a facade.   But isn't that called growing up?

 

Many parents lie, for many reasons, directly and by omission.   What parent tells their child everything about themselves?   As we admonish high schoolers not to drink when they go out with their friends, do we say "I know what goes on because I attended a lot of keg parties in my high school days?"  When we advise them against having sex, do we say, "I know the risks because more than once I had unprotected sex as a teenager?"  Do we tell kids about our money troubles?  Our relationship woes?   Do we tell them when we fear we might lose our jobs?   To some degree, every parent keeps part of their life secret from their child, just as that child will grow older and begin to keep parts of their life secret from their parents.

 

Paige's boo-hooing seems ridiculous to me.   I suppose it might be explained as a cumulative reaction from all the anxiety she experienced leading up to the big reveal ... but lots of kids have the illusion of their lives shattered when parents have an affair, or get divorced, come out as gay, etc., and they deal.   Paige hasn't lost her home.   Her parents aren't splitting up.   As far as she knows, they still love her.   They are even going out of their way to help her cope with the shift in her reality. 

 

She may not like what's happened in her life, but I think the more realistic reaction would be for her to sit tight, reassess the situation, and make plans to get out of there in another couple of years.   That's what lots of kids do when home life becomes intolerable, for whatever reason.

[Umbelina]

Exposing your children to the risk of your being imprisoned is part of your parenting. It is simply and wholly inaccurate to claim that a prent's willful decision to engage in illegal behavior is not part of their parenting.

 

 

It was illegal to revolt against England as well.  By your logic, the United States would never have existed, and all of the people that fought, or supported the revolutionary war are, by default, bad parents.

 

Elizabeth believes in her cause just as much as they did.

Edited April 24, 2015 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

The frustrating thing for a lot of kids is probably how you define "owe" somebody. People can come up with specific things they think parents are owed that they might disagree with--do you owe it to your parents to not rat them out for crimes? To be polite to them? To take care of them in their old age? To speak of them well? Etc.

 

But when you think of a character like Walt Jr. on Breaking Bad, for instance, he completely rejected his father for good reason. He didn't feel he owed it to him to support what he did. He didn't want support from him. 

 

But the good person Walt Jr. is still probably is owed in large part to Walt as a father. A father who ultimately did terrible things and caused his family unbelievable pain, but Walt Jr. was still shaped by him. Or like Don Draper said to his daughter this week, she *is* like her parents whether she wants to define herself against them or not. She'll probably discover that as she gets older. You can't get away from it!

 

I think Paige, in particular, is just so much like her mother, though not a carbon copy at all. (Where Paige might be denying the similarity Elizabeth sees too much of it.) But the person she is has absolutely been created by her parents' parenting. Sometimes she was reacting against them, sometimes she was becoming the person they showed her how to be. Even when she found her own role model she didn't realize she was behaving very much like her mother. Her focus on trying to fit all this new info into the framework that made her feel better about her life rather than being curious about these strange people her parents are also seems very much like her mother (that woman's a master class in avoiding messy personal relationships in favor of noble living). Her life hasn't all been a lie, as Philip pointed out. A lot of what she's gotten about her parents is perfectly true.

 

Even when she thought she was discovering herself to be so different from her parents (interested in the state of the world and wanting to help as opposed to her lazy, content suburban parents who just cared about money and comfortable living) it turned out she was following in their footsteps. She's actually very primed to understand a lot about her parents' story, even if she's not ready to hear it yet.

Edited April 24, 2015 by sistermagpie

[soapfaninnc]

It was illegal to revolt against England as well.  By your logic, the United States would never have existed, and all of the people that fought, or supported the revolutionary war are, by default, bad parents.

 

Elizabeth believes in her cause just as much as they did.

Which of the Founding Fathers produced children specifically to serve in the 'war'? Elizabeth only had children because the Center ordered her to do so. She fully expects Paige to serve the Center - not in the same capacity as she does (at least in her mind) but Elizabeth fully believes Paige is going to be in lockstep with her as far as the USSR is concerned. The Founders of this nation agreed on one thing - freedom. Elizabeth doesn't believe in freedom. The Center doesn't believe in freedom. At least not in an individual sense. A person only exists as to their meaning to the state as a whole - what their role is. And their role is what the state says it is. The person gets very little choice in the matter. 

 

I must know some different teenagers than the rest of the board because most 15 year old girls I know are self centered, ruled by their emotions/hormones, and don't expect the secrets their parents are keeping to involve fabricating their entire identities. I can't imagine them taking that news well at all.

 

As far as family loyalty, why can Elizabeth be given a pass for turning Phillip into the Center? Paige is supposed to be more mature at fifteen and more loyal than her much older mother? Not following that logic. Not at all. 

 

I'm not going to change my mind about Elizabeth being a lousy parent. She is, IMO.

Edited April 24, 2015 by soapfaninnc

[Umbelina]

Which of the Founding Fathers produced children specifically to serve in the 'war'?

 

Elizabeth didn't produce Paige to be a 2nd generation spy.  She had no idea they would ask her to do that.

 

My point was that the founding fathers, and every family that fought, or hid weapons, carried messages, fed the revolutionary soldiers, or any of the other things they would all be expected to do were engaged in an illegal act, and all of them were in danger, including their kids.  Revolutionary means just that, they WERE overthrowing their government. 

 

Change never happens without risk, and many of those risk takers ARE parents.  Many children died on wagon trains too, or because their parents took them into "Indian territory" which, many think was illegal as well.  Massacres happened on both sides, but much like the Cold War, "we" won that one, so the nearly total destruction of several nations, and the seizing of their lands was just fine.  It was dangerous though, and the parents willingly took their children into danger.  So they must be bad parents as well.  The "Indians" must have been bad parents too, to fight against the invaders, since so many of their children were put in harms way, and murdered.

Edited April 24, 2015 by Umbelina

[anonymiss]

Are people worthy of protection, by reason of DNA, when they spend nearly your entire life lying to you about the most fundamental things, while risking that you will end up being raised by strangers or in an institutional setting? Procreating does not in and of itself render someone worthy of protection. Elizabeth and Phillip are hideous parents. They deserve nothing.

I don't think Elizabeth and Phillip are hideous parents. I had hideously abusive parents. I would have given anything to have caring parents like at least Elizabeth and Phillip are. They lied to give her the perfectly normal suburban family but SHE was the one who insisted on breaking the illusion. She insisted on the truth because, thanks to their parenting, she's well adjusted enough to believe she had a right to it at 15. She was asserting her independence like any confident, healthy child would do at that age, but like her parents knew in lying to protect her childhood, she couldn't handle it. They are not ideal parents, but far from hideous IMO.

[AGuyToo]

I don't know if I'd call them monsters, even given what we know.  They're soldiers in a war, in their eyes.

 

I wouldn't call them monsters either, but for the sake of argument:

 

Even if Elizabeth and Philip were uniformed soldiers, some of the things they do could be classified as war crimes. War has laws, meant to differentiate it from murder and mayhem. One of those laws makes targeting civilians a crime. Another bars sexual abuse of both civilians and military personnel (e.g., statutory rape of a 15 year old -- which, I realize, Philip hasn't committed yet but which still seems a distinct possibility).  For Elizabeth and Philip, where is the line? What laws pertain (in their own minds)?

Edited April 25, 2015 by AGuyToo

[Guest]

I saw absolutely zero chemistry between Philip and Sandra as characters and Matthew Rhys and Susan Misner as actors. Misner is not untalented but I really don't see much point to Sandra and I still wonder why she was added as a regular cast member.

I really like Misner, Wright and Mahendru, and feel like the writers/producers do too, and that's the main reason they're still around.  I feel like the season might've been better without at least two of them.  

 

I'd keep Sandra, though.  I find her and Stan interesting, probably because I've been through that not too long ago, with a lot of parallels.  

 

Even if Elizabeth and Philip were uniformed soldiers, some of the things they do could be classified as war crimes. War has laws, meant to differentiate it from murder and mayhem. One of those laws makes targeting civilians a crime. Another bars sexual abuse of both civilians and military personnel (e.g., statutory rape of a 15 year old -- which, I realize, Philip hasn't committed yet but which still seems a distinct possibility).  For Elizabeth and Philip, where is the line? What laws pertain (in their own minds)?

No, they're not literally as blameless as soldiers.  But they believe their actions are regrettable misfortunes needed to save their country and ideology.  I'm not excusing them by any means.  

[Bannon]

It was illegal to revolt against England as well.  By your logic, the United States would never have existed, and all of the people that fought, or supported the revolutionary war are, by default, bad parents.

 

Elizabeth believes in her cause just as much as they did.

No, as I've already stated, in several places in this thread, if the government which is you are working against is sufficiently despotic, exposing your children to the risk of you engaging in criminal activity, in order to oppose that government, may be an ethical choice.Even so, however, a British subject, in England, in 1776, who secretly was spying on England, may well indeed have been a terrible parent. An American colonist, who purposely crossed the ocean, children in tow, or children to be born in England, while spying on Engand, was certainly being a terrible parent. Let us be clear, it is quite possible to be a great patriot to a cause, while being a hideous parent. In fact, I'd wager that most great patriots to a cause were hideous parents. That isn't to say the world shouldn't have great patriots; as someone else said in this thread there is more to being an adult than being a parent. I simply object to the notion that children owe their parents anything, when the parent has made a conscious choice to be a crappy parent. Everybody, and I mean everybody, has to carry the full weght of the choices thay have made. When you tell your children, by your behavior, that they are a distand second, or even a third, compared to the pursuit of your politics, it is perfectly reasonable and ethical for your children to in turn to go tell you to perform an anatomically impossible carnal act on yourself.

Edited April 25, 2015 by Bannon

[crabbypants]

Another modernism with Phillip & Henry not walking to the gate with Paige and Elizabeth.

With Paige phoning Tim on the night of the Evil Empire speech, what are the odds of her remarks being interpreted as teenage hyperbole?

[Cardie]

Make room for one more on this side of the room    I believe Martha's dead, too.

 

I've read enough interviews with the showrunner now to accept that Martha is not dead. I still maintain that, even with a desire to make her fate ambiguous and build suspense, the placement and editing of that wig-off scene was terrible. (Since it got cut from the finale and recycled, I suppose I can cut them some slack.) Even adding a horrified reaction shot from Martha to end the scene would have made me feel less like it was a cliffhanger that I would expect to see resolved in the next episode. I would have preferred, in fact, for them not to leave her fate dangling and have Philip say something to the effect that she should hang tight--whatever he's done to mislead her, he will get her out of this. Then the suspense could just be how, until the murder of Gene. A bit obvious, perhaps, but anytime showrunners have to explain what happened to confused professional TV critics, they've dropped the ball. The same with Pastor Tim's Clark-like wig that makes him seem so sketchy. Instead of telling interviewers that he's what he seems, either make him look less phony or just keep mum and keep viewers guessing. Their half-measures don't work, in my opinion.

 

As for the debate on whether Paige is an ungrateful brat or P&E the worst parents ever, I don't think any of us have a template to judge. This is a marriage and a family created from the ground up by a state-power. There are no analogies. Sure parents keep secrets but being covert Soviet spies who had a KGB matchmaker and cranked out their kids on cue is of a whole order of magnitude different than having an affair, being gay, lying about family background. Adopted kids in the best of homes often wonder about their biological parents. Paige has every right to wonder if she wasn't just as infant actress cast as the daughter of these fictional "Americans." That's a shock that goes well beyond typical teenage angst about flawed parents. As for her becoming a devout Christian, teen rebellions often lead to the taking on of ideologies opposite to that of the mom and dad. My parents were Republicans; it took one year at college for me to decide to become a Democrat.

 

Elizabeth's mother saying that everything depended upon her becoming KGB and then an illegal is only speaking hard facts. With a deserter husband, her life and her daughter's hung by a thread. The only way to rehabilitate the family is to make this extraordinary commitment to the homeland. Now, Mom may in fact have been a true believer who was horrified by her husband's deeds, but even if she weren't, she'd play it that way to the daughter she was giving over as a whore for the KGB, to put the situation at its most crass but most accurate too.

[crgirl412]

Another modernism with Phillip & Henry not walking to the gate with Paige and Elizabeth.

I was really surprised that they didn't have them go to the gate and disappointed too!! 

[sistermagpie]

When you tell your children, by your behavior, that they are a distand second, or even a third, compared to the pursuit of your politics, it is perfectly reasonable and ethical for your children to in turn to go tell you to perform an anatomically impossible carnal act on yourself.

 

 

I have to say, though, that I don't think all children would hear their parents telling them that they're a distant or third priority and therefore they should go fuck themselves for having a parent who had a stressful or dangerous job. 

[Bannon]

I have to say, though, that I don't think all children would hear their parents telling them that they're a distant or third priority and therefore they should go fuck themselves for having a parent who had a stressful or dangerous job. 

I may be interpreting this statement incorrecty, but I'll observe that children are susceptible to being conned by parents who are intent on rationalizing their choices as parents. That gullibility of children has nothing to do. however, with the fact that a parent who puts his child in a distant second or even third place is owed nothing by that child. Being a grown up means carrying the weight of the choices you made, including the choice that your children were less important than your job. The world's a hard, hard, place place, even for people who fervently believe in a cause.They oughta' suck it up, and live with it, if their chlldren give them a complete education as to the full cost of the priorities they have chosen, as opposed to making a fatuous claim that their children have some obligation to them.

Edited April 25, 2015 by Bannon

[maraleia]

Knock it off everyone with the back and forth over whether P & E are good/bad parents. Also, the period political talk needs to be put in the politics thread. I don't want to have to delete posts here or elsewhere in this forum but if this keeps up then I will without warning or a PM to the posters. Thanks...maraleia

[ToastnBacon]

I was hoping Arkady would be used more often when I saw that he got promoted to series regular.... But, nope, didn't happen.... It was like he still was recurring.... ;-x

I like the actor who plays Arkady, I think he had a very small scene or two in the Sopranos.

The Arkady character is interesting, I get the feeling that the character is the typical guy who's good at a job, and does it for the sake of being being known as competent more than anything else.

I see the Phillip character as being much the same; however, Phillip has been asked to do much more horrendous things.

Edited April 25, 2015 by ToastnBacon

[heisey]

I've been thinking about Paige's revelation to Pastor Tim.  We the viewers think Tim will conclude that P&E are Russian spies, but we know they are spies.  Tim doesn't.  We heard Paige telling him her parents are liars, they aren't who they claim to be, and they're Russians.  It's possible Tim could conclude, based on that information, that P&E are Russian spies.  But that's not the only possible conclusion he could draw, and maybe not even the first possibility that would occur to him.  For example, he might think P&E are refugees or escapees or even defectors from Russia, who would have good reasons for keeping their true identities a secret.  The plight of the "refuseniks," Soviet Jews and dissenters who were not allowed to emigrate, was well-known in the West during the Cold War. It would not be a stretch for Tim to think P&E were refuseniks who had somehow managed to get out of Russia and needed to assume new identities to protect themselves and their family. 

[Former Nun]

Someone recently linked an interview where the showrunners stated Pastor Tim was what he seemed.

 

 

What he seemed to whom?  When?   I've thought of him as a small-time cult leader.  I've thought of him as a possible pedophile.  He doesn't seem admirable to me...maybe it's the acting.

Edited April 27, 2015 by Former Nun